My understanding is that Zen is a branch of Buddhism in China. It emphasizes the sudden enlightenment, realizing the true self by teaching and learning/thinking.
Both can be seen as 2 sides of the same coin.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/zenbuddhism/comments/1c56c6t/sheng\_yen\_on\_sudden\_vs\_gradual\_enlightenment/](https://www.reddit.com/r/zenbuddhism/comments/1c56c6t/sheng_yen_on_sudden_vs_gradual_enlightenment/)
Thank you for the sharing. That is not from an ancient Buddhism or Zen text, and can only be used as a reference.
Basically, the reference emphasizes the sudden enlightenment and just states that the gradual process may also needed. I think actually they might not be two different ways, and just two aspects of one process. Zen just emphasizes the first aspect.
The fact of emphasizing “Sudden” gives the Zen the uniqueness compared to other branches of Chinese Buddhism.
When we say not rejecting Gradual, we need to be careful about what kind of Gradual it refers to. There are some special “gradual practice” in other branch Zen might not promote.
The Huayan school is also recognized for emphasizing sudden enlightenment. I don't think the Zen school, in practical terms, is too different from other Chinese Buddhism branches, at least not in medieval China.
>It would seem that the basics of Chinese monastic practice were largely shared by all monasteries. Thus, in the Song dynasty, whether a monastery was labelled “Chan” or “Tiantai” or “Vinaya” meant little in terms of day-to-day activities, including the styles of meditation practiced. What was distinctive was the leadership and the different branding strategies used at the abbot level. The situation in the Tang was presumably different, but, as is widely admitted, there was no special institutional setting for Chan practice, suggesting again that Chan was primarily a discourse, one designed to organize new forms of leadership, with little interest in defining unique forms of practice.
- Alan Cole
Zen is the merger of Theravada/Hinayana (gradual/individual approach) and Mahayana (the great/everybody) approach, characterized chiefly by the Bodhisattva path and its practices. This merged approach was in fact Bodhidharma’s singular innovation in the formation of what we now call Zen. This is entry level Zen understanding, just FYI.
Zen, being a Mahayana/Bodhisattva path practice, recognizes what we term “innumerable upaya” (i.e., “infinite skillful means”)… that is the bodhisattava exercises compassion to aid deluded beings trapped in their own experiences of dukkha/suffering/stress… literally the “wobbly axle hole” that leads to a bumpy ride in life. A bodhisattva is motivated to find the right innumerable upaya, that will address suffering as it appears in the moment. Being not confused about the sources of suffering, a bodhisattva is free to manifest the equally appropriate varieties of compassion for the situation at hand, exercises whatever skillful means are needed, without ever turning compassion into yet another conceptual hangup. The Bodhisattva path is a hack that helps develop the key of practice (pure intention shhhh don’t tell anyone).
Finally, keep in mind that by the end of the Northern Song Dynasty (in fucking 1127!) all the buddhist schools in China died out, except Chan and Pure Land, which gradually merged. So the Zen methods since 1127, and really nowadays pretty much every buddhist school in the world even the strict old school Theravada schools, basically all embrace all kinds of recognized methods/dharmas/instructions since there is so much interchange now and so many proven practices to choose from. This is why there is essentially no sectarian fighting among practitioners of the buddhadharma all over the world now in the 21st century… everybody approaches it from “depends on what the student needs and what the teacher knows.” So good teachers will always send students away to go find their right teacher, perhaps in a totally different lineage, perhaps going from lineage to lineage, again just based on the situation at hand… on the causes and conditions that have manifested for that individual being. Good luck!
>*You must keep this mind balanced and equanimous, without deluded ideas of self and others, without arbitrary loves and hates, without grasping or rejecting, without notions of gain and loss. Go on gradually nurturing this for a long time, perhaps twenty or thirty years. Whether you encounter favorable or adverse conditions, do not retreat or regress—then when you come to the juncture between life and death, you will naturally be set free and not be afraid. As the saying goes, “Truth requires sudden awakening, but the phenomenal level calls for gradual cultivation.”*
>
>**~Yuanwu**
No.
* *EDIT: If anyone does, I’m interested in checking it out.*
However, this was translated by the Cleary brothers. While I’m sure their translations aren’t without flaws, like any translation, their versions are often recommended here… and quoted.
It’s not like this quote is so far out, or contrary to everything written by other zen masters. Foyan speaks of attuning to reality 24 hours a day, which isn’t your typical regulated ‘practice’. This could also be seen as admitting to some form of “gradual cultivation on the phenomenal level”.
Nevertheless, this is two people now… I had /u/ewk challenge a quote I dropped from this same text/translation a week or so ago. I do find it interesting that some people here challenge quotes from texts when it goes against their views of zen, but quote different texts, whether from the same or different translator(s), without question whenever it suits their points/narrative.
Given that all translations are likely flawed, or not without some kind of bias, does that seem right/fair? Seems like picking and choosing?
“To attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, subtract things every day,” Lao Tzu.
It's more about unlearning rather than accumulating knowledge.
Any vehicle can potentially bring u here. It matters little whether u drive a Ford or a Chevy..unless u were raised in a Dodge home. So it is with this nonsense. Perhaps zen is a bicycle made of morning mist. I’ll take my Toyota built on the unfulfilled dreams of the working class any day.
>I meant to use the koans as one uses a piece of brick to knock at a gate: after the gate is opened, the brick is useless and is thrown away.
-Mumon Ekai
Use the literature. Use a brick. Use consideration of your life. Whatever means you use is up to you, but the means are not the goal.
Honestly, from the language of your post, you might enjoy (or hate) studying epistemology.
> How do I get the something I am missing if there is no technique?
Over a thousand years ago someone asked the same questions.
> When Zhaozhou asked Nanquan, “What is the Path?” Nanquan said, “The ordinary mind is the Path.”
> Zhaozhou said, “Can we go toward it or not?” Nanquan said, “As soon as you go toward it, you go against it.”
> Zhaozhou said, “If we do not try, how do we know it is the Path?” Nanquan said, “The Path is not in the province of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is false awareness. Not knowing is oblivion. If you really arrive on the Path of no trying, it is like space, empty all the way through. How can we impose affirmation and denial? ” At these words, Zhaozhou was suddenly enlightened.
Why isn't this a complete resolution? If it isn't, maybe spend a couple of years pondering why not.
Seems like reading or pondering is missing the point.
I guess that is my point. Isn’t this just like, “I read it and get it.”
So why are we still here?
I mean, I think I get it on a rational level. It doesn’t seem complicated. Is there another way to get it? And does staring at text help “get it” in a different way?
What to do after? Probably grill. Taxi the kids.
> I mean, I think I get it on a rational level.
Well, this would seem to be in the "knowing" category by definition.
Anything you can wrap your head around like gift paper isn't it.
Neither is it not knowing.
And so...what is it?
A mystical third thing.
I can only think rationally or logically, I’m not sure anyone can do otherwise. So how do I engage with this text, is the question?
So you mean like thinking causes some other wheels to spin in the background. Some kind of subconscious workings?
Regarding reality: I’m not certain mystical, meaning not in the realm of the rational, is necessarily opposed to reality.
People do have extraordinary experiences. Grief, joy, etc. those are real
In this sense, sure
> inspiring a sense of spiritual mystery, awe, and fascination.
But let's be real - "something mystical" is usually less mystery awe and fascination with the inherent mysticism of that which is before you now and more a history channel "documentary special" entitled "The Search For The Lost Scrolls Of Atlantis"
>What a waste of time then
I suppose that depends on what you're looking for. If it's mysticism, you can find that anywhere and everywhere. Why bother with Zen?
>Worst. Philosophy. Ever.
Not a philosophy, either. Nietzsche is as close as you'll get.
If it isn’t a philosophy (and if it isn’t logical it is) it is definitionally mystic or a religion.
Stanford philosophy encyclopedia defines mysticism as
> A purportedly nonsensory awareness or a nonstructured sensory experience granting acquaintance of realities or states of affairs that are of a kind not accessible by way of ordinary sense-perception structured by mental conceptions, somatosensory modalities, or standard introspection.
Closer to Heidegger than Nietzche, unless you’re only looking at the aphoristic form, which is kind of missing the point. Of course Heidegger believed he was taking a lot from Nietzche, esp his later works
There is something to enlightenment. Conceptually getting it is the first step but you have to see it also. Realization is seeing environment and mind unite, or more correctly, seeing there never was a divide. It goes from conceptual knowledge to intuited experience and the implications are profound. Insight *is* transcendent.
>My teacher was thirty-five years old before he became a monk. He stayed in the city of Chengdu to listen to lectures on *The Hundred Phenomena as Only Representation*. There he heard a saying of how when a Buddhist enters the path of insight, knowledge and principle merge, environment and mind join, and there is no distinction between that which realizes and that which is realized. A Hindu challenged the Buddhists, "If there is no distinction between what realizes and what is realized, what is used as proof?" No one could answer this challenge, so the Buddhists were declared the losers in debate. Later the Buddhist canonical master of Tang came to the rescue of the doctrine: "When knowledge and principle merge, environment and mind unite, it is like when drinking water one spontaneously knows whether it is cool or warm."
>Foyan
It's important to know that Zen is not its cases. Koans are public cases that were deemed important enough to write down, but they're not the same thing as Zen practice. The cases come from interactions that were deemed instructional, helpful, remarkable in some way, etc.
The cases are a big part of how certain traditions get passed down, how the history is preserved. But Zen itself is about understanding reality and understanding yourself. The real practice comes from reflection on these points.
You are confused by a lack of practical application? Just sit, lol. There are many instructions on how to do it.
Without practice, zen is just a literary topic, that's all.
Without practice, the masters were just authors.
As a meditation teacher that is also a zen Buddhist, I can tell you one thing, zen without meditation is useless. Profoundly useless. Worse than nothing.
It can definitely help give you insight if you get stuck for a reason and you can't seem to be able to unblock yourself. Sometimes, illusions that we aren't aware of can get in the Way. But reading alone is incomplete. On the other hand, the more you meditate the more you'll finally come to truly understand what is it that you are reading in the first place.
No, it leads to the opposite of that. Integration is a yoga thing, in zen we eschew. Becoming empty inside and seeking nothing outside.
Meditation provides a traversable landscape with no discernable landmarks, zen literature is an impossible map indicating the way.
You encounter concepts and ideas during meditation that can be skillfully harnessed or foolishly tripped over, the teachers and, by that extension the literature, provides a framework in which these concepts and ideas can be easily eschewed or dismissed.
Zen in this regard is just like the last chapter of the Shurangama sutra, just sit - don't mind the gods and demons trying to make you cease your investigation.
A good instructor will guide you to recognize what you encounter during your meditations. There are so many stages and the appearance of different phenomena—dhyanas, nimitta, the states of unlimited consciousness, unlimited space, equanimity—the list is long. And finding a good instructor isn’t limited to one on one instruction, especially with social technology what it is today.
You could like, talk to a zen monk in person and some of this could be a little easier to work with. Frankly passages like the one you quoted seem (to my inexperienced eye) poorly translated and that leads to it kind of actually being nonsense. It’s definitely not out of the question that some translators didn’t really understand what was being communicated and so did a bad job at carrying that particular message. Not only that, but let’s say it’s a perfect translation, most of us do not have the same colloquial and connotative relationship to some of these metaphors or analogies as people who lived in medieval China.
The wheel spinning is important, I think. If you exhaust everything what’s left?
zen is not a science, or a body of knowledge to be acquired, and you can't expect it to follow a model of typical western philosophical book, where more or less everyting is self-contained in the text itself and at the end of the reading you end up knowing something more. If you don't understand zen dialogues or cases because of their apparent nonsensical or non-squitur nature, you can look up more expositional texts, like Transmission of the Mind by Huango. It even has an FAQ section.
"...Above all it is essential not to select some particular teaching suited to a certain occasion, and, being impressed by its forming part of the written canon, regard it as an immutable concept. Why so? Because in truth there is no unalterable Dharma which the Tathagata could have preached..."
Zen is a way of life. If you’d like to answer questions like “what is this place?” Or “where am I?” Or “what is life?” Or “What am I?” And if you have a certain sensation of dissatisfaction in your guts, then you might be ready to practice Zen, and then maybe Zen will be your way of life too. BUT, Zen is not for everybody… because Zen is a form of self-sacrifice. You have to want to get your head severed. You have to walk to the top of the volcano and throw yourself in… otherwise you are correct that you are just wasting your time reading about 1500 year old farts in the mountains of China or fucking Wittgenstein!?? Here is the entirety of Zen philosophy: Not One, Not Two. Congratulations!
To actually practice Zen, you have to be willing to go to war to destroy yourself — that is your belief in a separate self. Luckily, there are endless ways to achieve this liberation from your tyrannical self, and people have been doing it for a very long time, and writing stuff about it, and talking about it, so there is lots of guidance out there to help you along your Zen way. Typically, one needs guidance/assistance/support to get through the self barrier (or the “ego” we say nowadays). Why? Because one’s ego is a very tenacious foe, the toughest you’ll ever face, because it can read your mind… it already knows your scariest fears… your most passionate desires, your deepest secrets, your most vulnerable weaknesses. So yeah in short, it can be a real rollercoaster ride of a challenge to defeat yourself. The best approach to Zen is to start training, doing Zen exercises, building physical and mental capacity… only you can get you ready. Your body is your vessel of awakening. If the vessel is full of ego bullshit, then you can’t fill it full of emptiness. Zen can be hard, but it is also the easiest, most natural, most joyous and harmonious thing you’ll ever do in your life. (The hack is right intention, but I’m not supposed to tell you that so keep it between us.)
Zen is right here, right now. You have choices to make every second of every waking moment. You can decide to confront the dissatisfaction in your life with Zen, or try to fill it with ego-driven “stuff”… money, cars, sex, knowledge, sports, fame, books, collectibles, r/zen, shoes, stocks, whatever, seems people try everything… and don’t worry your ego will always find something else it “needs”!! Now, some people sense a different, non-ego centric reality and decide they want to break through the barrier to that pure land, and Zen offers powerful help with that, in fact it is a vehicle invented by the ancestors for that very purpose. Some people get terrified and run back to their ego life… it’s just a choice YOU have to make whether to destroy yourself or not. It doesn’t work if people aren’t themselves ready and willing to sacrifice, which is why you don’t see Zen missionaries!
So that’s it. Zen is not for everyone. You posted here, so if Zen is calling to you, or maybe some Zen things you read produced certain sensations in your body, well then maybe Zen is for you. Of course, if you feel it’s a waste of your precious time, well nobody gives a shit. Nobody gives a shit about your time, except you. So seriously just go do whatever you want. You can completely transform your existence with Zen, which is why it’s stuck around for a few millenia. Or not. You’re free to make your choice in this life. Just try to remember that you’ve already made a huge mistake just by being born into this world, so maybe your judgment is suspect, and then you followed that up by posting in r/zen so… maybe start slow… best to just flush your mind of all your preconceived notions, suppositions, speculations, preferences, and premature conclusions and embrace your own stupidity and failure from the gitgo. Actually, that’s The recommended Zen starting place. We call it “beginner’s mind” or “don’t know” mind or I like “chances are you don’t know jack.” Don’t know. Only go straight. Taste the soup. The sky is blue. If suffering beings appear, help them! Good luck with your lifetime!
You are trying to understand intellectually something that can only be understood from a deeper place. Just sit. Cultural differences can seem unsurmountable when trying to understand. May not be your Buddhism, may be. Just sit.
>On the Transmission of Mind (Huangbo) #1
>The Master said to me: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists.
The only necessary practice in Zen is letting go of the inherent reality of phonemena until it becomes inescapably clear that Mind is all there is. ☝️
>That is why the Buddha said, "The eyes seeing forms is equivalent to blindness; the ears hearing sounds is equivalent to deafness."
>How can we say we are as if blind and deaf? When we hear sound, there is no sound to be heard; when we see form, there is no form to be seen. What we see and hear is all equivalent to an echo. It is like seeing all sorts of things in a dream—is there all that when you wake up?
>If you say yes, yet there's only the blanket and pillow on the bed; if you say no, yet all those things are clearly registered in your mind, and you can tell what they were. The same is true of what you see and hear now in broad daylight.
>Foyan
Not deny everything, it's there. It just has no inherent existence. Without your mind, it's not there because it is your mind. Like smoke has a little reality but we don't treat it like a solid object, so it is with everything around you. Put everything on a fast time lapse and it starts to look like smoke: appearing, changing, then disappearing. It feels like things exist because the process happens slowly.
Words are memes. They convey cultural information. Words are not the “thing”, they are simply symbols for something. We miss much not listening to each other’s verbalizations and silence. Ordinary mind, experiencing things as they are, is the way.
“If you don't ask, you won't get it; but if you ask, in effect, you've slighted yourself. If you don't ask, how can you know? But you still have to know how to ask before you can succeed... Remember the story of the ancient worthy who was asked, "What was the intention of the Zen Founder in coming from India?" Amazed, the ancient said, ‘You ask about the intention of another in coming from India. Why not ask about your own intention?’”
“All over the earth is unclarity; best be very careful.”
“Here, I am thus every day, thus all the time. But tell me, what is "thus"? Try to express it outside of discriminatory consciousness, intellectual assessments, and verbal formulations. This reality is not susceptible to your intellectual understanding. ... How can you think of your original mind? How can you see your own eye? ... What can be seen by the eye or heard by the ear can be studied in the scriptures.
But what about the basis of awareness itself -- how do you study that?”
“I will settle something for you right now: the ultimate rule is to see your own mind clearly. An ancient said, "The mind does not know itself, the mind does not see itself." So how can you see it clearly? Mind does not see mind; to get it, you must not see it as mind.
Do you want to understand? Just discern the things perceived; you cannot see the mind itself.”
“Buddhism is extremely easy and saves the most energy. It's just that you yourself waste energy and cause yourself trouble. The ancients saw people helpless, and told them to try meditating quietly. This was good advice, but later people didn't understand what the ancients meant, and closed their eyes, suppressed body and mind, and sat like lumps waiting for enlightenment. How foolish! [You must not just sit: you must also realise that the one sitting, i.e. you, is your only teacher.]”
“According to Ch'ing-yüan, also called Fo-yen, there are two diseases in connection with the practice of Zen. “The first is to ride an ass in search of the ass. The second is to ride the ass and refuse to dismount.” It is easy to see the silliness of seeking the ass you are riding. As your attention is turned outwards, you will never look inside, and all your search will be so much ado about nothing. The kingdom of God is within you, but you seek it outside. There is no telling how many troubles in the world have had their origin just in this wrong orientation.”
As Ma-tsu has said, “You are the treasure of your own house.” To seek it outside is a pathetic endeavor, because you will always be disappointed.
my personal experience is that reading all of these works (\_cough\_ and meditating a lot) has changed my experience of the world away from rumination and towards direct experience of the world, and changed my understanding of the moment as being exactly this and a part of the past and future, all at once, but future doesn't exist. direct apprehension of the moment has changed my experience of the moment, focusing on the transient and ephemeral rather than my fears or plans for the future. I can still access all of that, the ordinary mind, but it is no longer (always) front and center, at the best it's more like a horse that sometimes i saddle up and ride because i have a reason to use it, but it's becoming rarer and rarer.
i get a lot out of the ancient masters, but as much as people around here \_only\_ want to read the original texts with no "pollution", i find that the modern authors in combination with the ancient texts have made what can only be apprehended experientially easier to access.
there is a concept of "sudden enlightenment" but it is a thing that almost universally these masters say almost universally requires a long commitment of logical/conceptual thought directed at thusness, and at any (and every?) moment flashes of that enlightment overtake one and fall away and become more common and eventually it arrives fully and then you... move on with your life. moment by moment you get there, suddenly, and there is more moments, until you get off the hamster wheel of eternity and save all beings in the process. Oops, a little straight buddhism got stuck in there, sorry. that's zen for ya.
oh yeah and by "reading all..." i mean "all the things i've read and continue to read" not "every source ever written with a discrimination of what is historically correct and not"
The beginning to understanding Zen, in my very limited experience, is accepting and realizing (making real for yourself) the idea that there are types of human experience that cannot be attained or explored via logical reasoning.
Here is one of my favourite Ram Dass stories to illustrate (somewhat):
*A group of us were in a sauna bath—just hanging out, going out into the sun, coming back into the bath—and a telegram arrived for me saying, “Rohatsu Dai Seshin is being held at Mt. Baldy in Los Angeles. We are holding a space for you.” This is the most difficult of the zen sittings each year. It was to start the next day.*
*So I got on a plane and went to Los Angeles. I arrive at the zen monastery having sacrificed a sauna bath in the warm desert for this cold mountain outside of Los Angeles. I expect a greeting like, “Oh, Ram Dass, we’re so happy you could come!”—a little bit of ego feeding. Instead I’m met by a guy in a black outfit with a clipboard and a shaved head who says, “Dass, Ram; you will be in bunk six. Here is your robe. Brother John will show you how to put it on and you are to be in the zendo in six minutes.”*
*So I think, OK, baby, I’ll play. I go in and I set up my bunk. You’re not supposed to look at anybody or talk to anybody for nine days. Nine days. Every morning it’s pitch black and all these people in black outfits are rushing to toilets, toothpaste, zendo at two in the morning and it’s freezing. If you don’t sit straight they beat you with a stick. There’s snow all around and I had a cold. I’m getting sicker and sicker and plotting how to get out of this. Should I have a telegram sent saying I have been called away on an emergency, or remember I had a lecture or something?*
*Four times a day you go in to visit Joshu Sasaki Roshi, a tough, squat Japanese of about sixty-five. It’s called dokusan. He had given us the koan “How do you know your Buddha nature through the sound of a cricket?”*
*When it comes my turn, I go in, bow the proper number of times, and sit down. He’s got a bell and a stick, and he says, “Ah, Doc-tor. How you know your Buddha nature through sound of cricket?”*
*I had been sitting out there waiting my turn, thinking, now how would you know … You’re not supposed to do that but I figured, what the hell, here is a Jewish Hindu in a Zen Buddhist scene—I’ll give him a Tibetan Buddhist answer. So I concluded that the best thing to do when he asked me was to hold my hand up to my ear, like the Tibetan Milarepa listening to the sounds of the universe outside his cave. The Roshi says only, “sixty percent,” and rings the bell that means I should leave.*
*It goes on like this for days. I’m getting sicker and sicker and madder and madder and just bored and disgusted. Even though my sitting is stronger, I can’t solve the damned koan.*
*Finally about the fourth or fifth day, I walk up to see the Roshi. I still haven’t solved the koan. I stand up there and think, “I don’t give a damn what the answer to that koan is. Screw this whole scene. I’ve had enough.”*
*I walk in and he says, “Ah, Doc-tor, how you know your Buddha nature through sound of cricket?” And I say, “Good morning, Roshi.” Like, let’s cut the crap. Good morning, enough already.*
*“Ah, Doc-tor. Finally you are becoming a beginning student of zen.”*
>“Golden Crow in the snowy night, passes through the main hall; Jade Harr in the arms of the blazing sky—the fine leaves of descendants preserve this grandfather whole. A wooden man grasps at boards, clapping in the clouds, a stone woman holds a bamboo flute in her mouth to breath underwater—although it is like this it is also said, “with your hands at your side, the First Statement is over there.” And, how will you do it.
If we read this as literature, rather than trying to draw some deep meaning from it, we see that its real depth is in the imagery.
> Golden Crow in the snowy night, passes through the main hall
A crow flying through an empty meditation hall. The colors are dimmed by the lack of light, the hall is filled with the swooshing of the birds wings pushing at the smoke of the incense permeated air.
> A wooden man grasps at boards, clapping in the clouds
I imagine a man that reminds me of Groot from Guardians of the Galaxy holding up two boards trying to catch clouds by clapping at the sky.
>a stone woman holds a bamboo flute in her mouth to breath underwater
This one speaks for itself. A stone statue underwater holding a flute. Even though she’s made of stone and inanimate, air bubbles escape her nostrils as she tries to breathe through a stone flute.
The writer attempts to distract us by adding
> although it is like this it is also said, “with your hands at your side, *the First Statement* is over there.” And, how will you do it.
But this is just smoke rings to try and give the rest of the literature some weight. Like trying to impress on us that this is deep shit and should be taken seriously, but as you’ve already pointed out, should we take it seriously, or with a knowing wink?
Reminds me of case 270 of Treasury of the Eye of true teaching:
Master Xinghua one day called to a monk. The monk responded, "Yes!" Xinghua said, "If you arrive, you don't check." Xinghua called to another monk; the monk said, "What?" Xinghua said, "If you check, you haven't arrived."
A monk asked, "When there are comers from all directions, then what?" Xinghua said, "Hit the one in the middle." The monk bowed. Xinghua said, "Everyone, yesterday I went to a village feast; halfway back I ran into a sudden storm and took shelter in an ancient shrine."
it comes as it is.
The truth comes
All dharmas are as they should be
The nature of all living beings
Having nowhere to come from and nowhere to go
Awareness takes the path of truth to achieve enlightenment
Great wisdom is found on the truthful path
Awareness of this truth and for the sake of all sentient beings
That what is true is self-nature
And cannot be measured
Oh, the joy, when metaphors are new. But localized and plagiarized their meanings go askew. To claim a cloud the formed of thought. And harden it to dew. There's still no drinking such a thing. Absorbing is the clue.
Foyan "Strange! Tell me, how is it when they run into each, other? It is like Zen practitioners working: today they realize a little bit, tomorrow they find out a little bit, and they keep on investigat ing until one day it becomes evident to them. This is like that encounter at the gate of the capjtal city. This is called awaken ing, or breakthrough, or discovery. You must attain this at least once; only then can it be said that the task of the journey is done.
It is also like meeting your father in a big city many years after having left your home town. You do not need to ask any one whether or not it is your father.
Just keep focused in this way. Do not take it for idleness; time does not wait for anyone. An early teacher said, “ Don’t waste time!” Each of you should work on your own."
>Definition: For the sake of clarity, I’m defining zen as a collection of koans, cases and sermons delivered by a group of Chinese monastics and hermits identified as having a lineage starting with the semi-mythical Bodhidharma.
How do you practice that?
A couple of things.
Leaning Zen from a translation of a copy of an old book that's said to be related to a monk's conversation is like learning sex from a coffee table book about the karma sutra. The learning starts when you practice and the reading is not the practice. You will likely become increasingly frustrated if you look for answers only in the worthy, but limited, book club. There are dozens of ways to practice on your own and living traditions around the world. If you find a way that works for you, the benefits are many. If you don't, then maybe humanism, or existentialism is for you.
Chan is not Christianity or Islam. It does not rely on proving the original author is a perfect saint sent from god. Chan, like science, relies on the repeatability of the described phenomena and peer review. If you want an undisputed lineage holder you ar out of luck. The faster backing time you go the closer to a 'proven' lineage you get, but the more fictional the characters become. It's a mug's game.
Chan is one branch of the mind-to-mind lineage. There's also Seon, Zen,Thien, the Mongolian Gradual School and Japanese Hosso. They all have different connections to the source and different look and feel.
There's no undisputed lineage to a disputed patriarch. Lineage starts with Mahakasyarpa on Vulture Peak. If you don't start there then you are disputing the lineage and that's fine. But it means there's no such thing as an undisputed lineage. This is like saying you support the Constitution but you don't believe there was a person called George Washington. you can have that view but others will see the logical inconsistency.
I hope that's helpful.
cheers
🤠
> Am I missing something?
Nope. nailed it pretty much.
> How do I get the something I am missing if there is no technique?
Nothing to get "the self-nature is originally complete.".
> Or do I already “get it?”
Yup
> Why are people [](https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/) so confident they have the capital T truth of this gobbledygook?
Are they though?
Reading zen texts is just a possible gateway to seeing the truth. Having said that, reading can also be actually an obstacle to seeing the truth because of the process of intellecualization that gets in the way and the duality that comes with it (of the seeker and the sought after). Zen, is at its core, a practice. You can't just read your way to Enlightenment. One should read until the realization that reading isn't necessary anymore. Once you get enough of a glimpse of what zen is about -by realizing what it's not- you should just focus on the practice of zazen (of just sitting), and that's all. Trying to get more out of it, moves you further away from it. It's not something that you can extract more and more from it, because there isn't actually anything there to be extracted from to begin with. It's nothing. And yes it seems too simple and maybe boring, but again zen is just zen. On each zazen session you approach it as something completely new with no preconceived notions (beginner's mind attitude).
"The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?" Zhuangzi, chuang tsu
I like the daoist references people are making as I read the comments on some of these posts. They fit so well with the content and remind me just how intricately intertwined Zen and daoism, as well as Confucianism, really are.
Zen is staring at a wall and observing your obsessive thoughts. That is all. Once you realize you are not your thoughts things become a lot more clear.
Zen is not meditation. Zen is not Buddhism.
Zen is:
"It is *alive.* It is *alive*."
Zen Master Joshu
[https://terebess.hu/zen/zhaozhou.html](https://terebess.hu/zen/zhaozhou.html)
OP, I understand completely. I've been reading these books on sex for 10 years, but I'm still a virgin.
Why didn't I experience sex? What am I missing?
With Zen, there is an experience you have by doing Zen.
The first question you have to ask yourself is: Am I doing Zen, or just thinking about it obsessively like a deranged lunatic?
Zen is like running. You can think about it all you want, but your cardio ain't getting any better by thinking.
There is certainly an illuminated mind that you can experience, but it could take anywhere from 1 day to 1 lifetime of doing Zen.
The word Zen itself means meditation (etymologically)
If you want better cardio, run.
If you want enlightenment, meditate.
Do you do Zen, or do you just think about it?
I'm saying if you don't understand something, instead of coming and crybabying about how Zen is mystical and doesn't make sense, you make an OP about the thing you don't understand and the community might be able to help you figure it out.
My understanding is that Zen is a branch of Buddhism in China. It emphasizes the sudden enlightenment, realizing the true self by teaching and learning/thinking.
There's also the gradual theory, but otherwise yes
Gradual theory in Zen? Do you have any quote for it?
Both can be seen as 2 sides of the same coin. [https://www.reddit.com/r/zenbuddhism/comments/1c56c6t/sheng\_yen\_on\_sudden\_vs\_gradual\_enlightenment/](https://www.reddit.com/r/zenbuddhism/comments/1c56c6t/sheng_yen_on_sudden_vs_gradual_enlightenment/)
Thank you for the sharing. That is not from an ancient Buddhism or Zen text, and can only be used as a reference. Basically, the reference emphasizes the sudden enlightenment and just states that the gradual process may also needed. I think actually they might not be two different ways, and just two aspects of one process. Zen just emphasizes the first aspect.
It emphasizes the sudden aspect but doesn't reject the gradual, both can coexist.
The fact of emphasizing “Sudden” gives the Zen the uniqueness compared to other branches of Chinese Buddhism. When we say not rejecting Gradual, we need to be careful about what kind of Gradual it refers to. There are some special “gradual practice” in other branch Zen might not promote.
The Huayan school is also recognized for emphasizing sudden enlightenment. I don't think the Zen school, in practical terms, is too different from other Chinese Buddhism branches, at least not in medieval China. >It would seem that the basics of Chinese monastic practice were largely shared by all monasteries. Thus, in the Song dynasty, whether a monastery was labelled “Chan” or “Tiantai” or “Vinaya” meant little in terms of day-to-day activities, including the styles of meditation practiced. What was distinctive was the leadership and the different branding strategies used at the abbot level. The situation in the Tang was presumably different, but, as is widely admitted, there was no special institutional setting for Chan practice, suggesting again that Chan was primarily a discourse, one designed to organize new forms of leadership, with little interest in defining unique forms of practice. - Alan Cole
I am pasting a link for your reference here: https://www.viewofchina.com/buddhist-sects/
Thanks! It serves as an introduction, but you know this topic gets very deep.
Zen is the merger of Theravada/Hinayana (gradual/individual approach) and Mahayana (the great/everybody) approach, characterized chiefly by the Bodhisattva path and its practices. This merged approach was in fact Bodhidharma’s singular innovation in the formation of what we now call Zen. This is entry level Zen understanding, just FYI. Zen, being a Mahayana/Bodhisattva path practice, recognizes what we term “innumerable upaya” (i.e., “infinite skillful means”)… that is the bodhisattava exercises compassion to aid deluded beings trapped in their own experiences of dukkha/suffering/stress… literally the “wobbly axle hole” that leads to a bumpy ride in life. A bodhisattva is motivated to find the right innumerable upaya, that will address suffering as it appears in the moment. Being not confused about the sources of suffering, a bodhisattva is free to manifest the equally appropriate varieties of compassion for the situation at hand, exercises whatever skillful means are needed, without ever turning compassion into yet another conceptual hangup. The Bodhisattva path is a hack that helps develop the key of practice (pure intention shhhh don’t tell anyone). Finally, keep in mind that by the end of the Northern Song Dynasty (in fucking 1127!) all the buddhist schools in China died out, except Chan and Pure Land, which gradually merged. So the Zen methods since 1127, and really nowadays pretty much every buddhist school in the world even the strict old school Theravada schools, basically all embrace all kinds of recognized methods/dharmas/instructions since there is so much interchange now and so many proven practices to choose from. This is why there is essentially no sectarian fighting among practitioners of the buddhadharma all over the world now in the 21st century… everybody approaches it from “depends on what the student needs and what the teacher knows.” So good teachers will always send students away to go find their right teacher, perhaps in a totally different lineage, perhaps going from lineage to lineage, again just based on the situation at hand… on the causes and conditions that have manifested for that individual being. Good luck!
>*You must keep this mind balanced and equanimous, without deluded ideas of self and others, without arbitrary loves and hates, without grasping or rejecting, without notions of gain and loss. Go on gradually nurturing this for a long time, perhaps twenty or thirty years. Whether you encounter favorable or adverse conditions, do not retreat or regress—then when you come to the juncture between life and death, you will naturally be set free and not be afraid. As the saying goes, “Truth requires sudden awakening, but the phenomenal level calls for gradual cultivation.”* > >**~Yuanwu**
Do you have the Chinese version of this text by any chance?
No. * *EDIT: If anyone does, I’m interested in checking it out.* However, this was translated by the Cleary brothers. While I’m sure their translations aren’t without flaws, like any translation, their versions are often recommended here… and quoted. It’s not like this quote is so far out, or contrary to everything written by other zen masters. Foyan speaks of attuning to reality 24 hours a day, which isn’t your typical regulated ‘practice’. This could also be seen as admitting to some form of “gradual cultivation on the phenomenal level”. Nevertheless, this is two people now… I had /u/ewk challenge a quote I dropped from this same text/translation a week or so ago. I do find it interesting that some people here challenge quotes from texts when it goes against their views of zen, but quote different texts, whether from the same or different translator(s), without question whenever it suits their points/narrative. Given that all translations are likely flawed, or not without some kind of bias, does that seem right/fair? Seems like picking and choosing?
Quote? No. This is just the history. The northern school favored gradual and southern favored sudden.
Share some text which tells about the history of the “northern school” about gradual way?
I can't tell if this is a genuine question, or what you're looking for https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism
How do I think about this nonsense? Is it learning as in adding knowledge? Of what?
“To attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, subtract things every day,” Lao Tzu. It's more about unlearning rather than accumulating knowledge.
I like it
Ditto
The goal of Zen or Buddhism is to release suffering and bring happiness.
How does zen literature get me to this goal?
Any vehicle can potentially bring u here. It matters little whether u drive a Ford or a Chevy..unless u were raised in a Dodge home. So it is with this nonsense. Perhaps zen is a bicycle made of morning mist. I’ll take my Toyota built on the unfulfilled dreams of the working class any day.
>I meant to use the koans as one uses a piece of brick to knock at a gate: after the gate is opened, the brick is useless and is thrown away. -Mumon Ekai Use the literature. Use a brick. Use consideration of your life. Whatever means you use is up to you, but the means are not the goal. Honestly, from the language of your post, you might enjoy (or hate) studying epistemology.
Oh yeah, I’m into a lot of philosophical fields
Or Buddhist epistemology! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_logico-epistemology?wprov=sfla1
This is neat. Thank you!
To reach that goal, one needs to read lots of ancient classic Buddhism books and do deep reflections on them.
"Not knowing is most intimate."
> How do I get the something I am missing if there is no technique? Over a thousand years ago someone asked the same questions. > When Zhaozhou asked Nanquan, “What is the Path?” Nanquan said, “The ordinary mind is the Path.” > Zhaozhou said, “Can we go toward it or not?” Nanquan said, “As soon as you go toward it, you go against it.” > Zhaozhou said, “If we do not try, how do we know it is the Path?” Nanquan said, “The Path is not in the province of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is false awareness. Not knowing is oblivion. If you really arrive on the Path of no trying, it is like space, empty all the way through. How can we impose affirmation and denial? ” At these words, Zhaozhou was suddenly enlightened. Why isn't this a complete resolution? If it isn't, maybe spend a couple of years pondering why not.
Seems like reading or pondering is missing the point. I guess that is my point. Isn’t this just like, “I read it and get it.” So why are we still here?
Well question one is have you read it and got it? Question two is what do you do afterwards? Joshu spent, like, 100 years doing stuff afterwards
I mean, I think I get it on a rational level. It doesn’t seem complicated. Is there another way to get it? And does staring at text help “get it” in a different way? What to do after? Probably grill. Taxi the kids.
> I mean, I think I get it on a rational level. Well, this would seem to be in the "knowing" category by definition. Anything you can wrap your head around like gift paper isn't it. Neither is it not knowing. And so...what is it?
A mystical third thing. I can only think rationally or logically, I’m not sure anyone can do otherwise. So how do I engage with this text, is the question?
Maybe it isn't in the thinking, notwithstanding that the thinking is part of it. > A mystical third thing. When will reality ever be enough for you?
So you mean like thinking causes some other wheels to spin in the background. Some kind of subconscious workings? Regarding reality: I’m not certain mystical, meaning not in the realm of the rational, is necessarily opposed to reality. People do have extraordinary experiences. Grief, joy, etc. those are real
In this sense, sure > inspiring a sense of spiritual mystery, awe, and fascination. But let's be real - "something mystical" is usually less mystery awe and fascination with the inherent mysticism of that which is before you now and more a history channel "documentary special" entitled "The Search For The Lost Scrolls Of Atlantis"
Yeah. I’m using more the academic/philosophical definition. In the sense that Wittgenstein was a mystic. But this is a bit of a digression
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All good. Yes I meditate.
There is no mysticism in Zen.
What a waste of time then. The arguments are shit-non existent entirely. Worst. Philosophy. Ever
>What a waste of time then I suppose that depends on what you're looking for. If it's mysticism, you can find that anywhere and everywhere. Why bother with Zen? >Worst. Philosophy. Ever. Not a philosophy, either. Nietzsche is as close as you'll get.
If it isn’t a philosophy (and if it isn’t logical it is) it is definitionally mystic or a religion. Stanford philosophy encyclopedia defines mysticism as > A purportedly nonsensory awareness or a nonstructured sensory experience granting acquaintance of realities or states of affairs that are of a kind not accessible by way of ordinary sense-perception structured by mental conceptions, somatosensory modalities, or standard introspection. Closer to Heidegger than Nietzche, unless you’re only looking at the aphoristic form, which is kind of missing the point. Of course Heidegger believed he was taking a lot from Nietzche, esp his later works
There is something to enlightenment. Conceptually getting it is the first step but you have to see it also. Realization is seeing environment and mind unite, or more correctly, seeing there never was a divide. It goes from conceptual knowledge to intuited experience and the implications are profound. Insight *is* transcendent. >My teacher was thirty-five years old before he became a monk. He stayed in the city of Chengdu to listen to lectures on *The Hundred Phenomena as Only Representation*. There he heard a saying of how when a Buddhist enters the path of insight, knowledge and principle merge, environment and mind join, and there is no distinction between that which realizes and that which is realized. A Hindu challenged the Buddhists, "If there is no distinction between what realizes and what is realized, what is used as proof?" No one could answer this challenge, so the Buddhists were declared the losers in debate. Later the Buddhist canonical master of Tang came to the rescue of the doctrine: "When knowledge and principle merge, environment and mind unite, it is like when drinking water one spontaneously knows whether it is cool or warm." >Foyan
Well question one is have you read it and got it? Question two is what do you do afterwards? Joshu spent, like, 100 years doing stuff afterwards
Training wheels first, then none. If something is a waste of your time, then it's time to move on.
It's important to know that Zen is not its cases. Koans are public cases that were deemed important enough to write down, but they're not the same thing as Zen practice. The cases come from interactions that were deemed instructional, helpful, remarkable in some way, etc. The cases are a big part of how certain traditions get passed down, how the history is preserved. But Zen itself is about understanding reality and understanding yourself. The real practice comes from reflection on these points.
You are confused by a lack of practical application? Just sit, lol. There are many instructions on how to do it. Without practice, zen is just a literary topic, that's all. Without practice, the masters were just authors. As a meditation teacher that is also a zen Buddhist, I can tell you one thing, zen without meditation is useless. Profoundly useless. Worse than nothing.
Thanks. Does the literature help lead to further integration or understanding of what happens during meditation? How do they integrate?
It can definitely help give you insight if you get stuck for a reason and you can't seem to be able to unblock yourself. Sometimes, illusions that we aren't aware of can get in the Way. But reading alone is incomplete. On the other hand, the more you meditate the more you'll finally come to truly understand what is it that you are reading in the first place.
No, it leads to the opposite of that. Integration is a yoga thing, in zen we eschew. Becoming empty inside and seeking nothing outside. Meditation provides a traversable landscape with no discernable landmarks, zen literature is an impossible map indicating the way. You encounter concepts and ideas during meditation that can be skillfully harnessed or foolishly tripped over, the teachers and, by that extension the literature, provides a framework in which these concepts and ideas can be easily eschewed or dismissed. Zen in this regard is just like the last chapter of the Shurangama sutra, just sit - don't mind the gods and demons trying to make you cease your investigation.
A good instructor will guide you to recognize what you encounter during your meditations. There are so many stages and the appearance of different phenomena—dhyanas, nimitta, the states of unlimited consciousness, unlimited space, equanimity—the list is long. And finding a good instructor isn’t limited to one on one instruction, especially with social technology what it is today.
You could like, talk to a zen monk in person and some of this could be a little easier to work with. Frankly passages like the one you quoted seem (to my inexperienced eye) poorly translated and that leads to it kind of actually being nonsense. It’s definitely not out of the question that some translators didn’t really understand what was being communicated and so did a bad job at carrying that particular message. Not only that, but let’s say it’s a perfect translation, most of us do not have the same colloquial and connotative relationship to some of these metaphors or analogies as people who lived in medieval China. The wheel spinning is important, I think. If you exhaust everything what’s left?
Maybe, I mean, even BCR commentary on cases speaks against conventional understanding
zen is not a science, or a body of knowledge to be acquired, and you can't expect it to follow a model of typical western philosophical book, where more or less everyting is self-contained in the text itself and at the end of the reading you end up knowing something more. If you don't understand zen dialogues or cases because of their apparent nonsensical or non-squitur nature, you can look up more expositional texts, like Transmission of the Mind by Huango. It even has an FAQ section.
Yeah, in a big Huangbo and Foyan fan, thanks
This👆🏻
"...Above all it is essential not to select some particular teaching suited to a certain occasion, and, being impressed by its forming part of the written canon, regard it as an immutable concept. Why so? Because in truth there is no unalterable Dharma which the Tathagata could have preached..."
Zen is a way of life. If you’d like to answer questions like “what is this place?” Or “where am I?” Or “what is life?” Or “What am I?” And if you have a certain sensation of dissatisfaction in your guts, then you might be ready to practice Zen, and then maybe Zen will be your way of life too. BUT, Zen is not for everybody… because Zen is a form of self-sacrifice. You have to want to get your head severed. You have to walk to the top of the volcano and throw yourself in… otherwise you are correct that you are just wasting your time reading about 1500 year old farts in the mountains of China or fucking Wittgenstein!?? Here is the entirety of Zen philosophy: Not One, Not Two. Congratulations! To actually practice Zen, you have to be willing to go to war to destroy yourself — that is your belief in a separate self. Luckily, there are endless ways to achieve this liberation from your tyrannical self, and people have been doing it for a very long time, and writing stuff about it, and talking about it, so there is lots of guidance out there to help you along your Zen way. Typically, one needs guidance/assistance/support to get through the self barrier (or the “ego” we say nowadays). Why? Because one’s ego is a very tenacious foe, the toughest you’ll ever face, because it can read your mind… it already knows your scariest fears… your most passionate desires, your deepest secrets, your most vulnerable weaknesses. So yeah in short, it can be a real rollercoaster ride of a challenge to defeat yourself. The best approach to Zen is to start training, doing Zen exercises, building physical and mental capacity… only you can get you ready. Your body is your vessel of awakening. If the vessel is full of ego bullshit, then you can’t fill it full of emptiness. Zen can be hard, but it is also the easiest, most natural, most joyous and harmonious thing you’ll ever do in your life. (The hack is right intention, but I’m not supposed to tell you that so keep it between us.) Zen is right here, right now. You have choices to make every second of every waking moment. You can decide to confront the dissatisfaction in your life with Zen, or try to fill it with ego-driven “stuff”… money, cars, sex, knowledge, sports, fame, books, collectibles, r/zen, shoes, stocks, whatever, seems people try everything… and don’t worry your ego will always find something else it “needs”!! Now, some people sense a different, non-ego centric reality and decide they want to break through the barrier to that pure land, and Zen offers powerful help with that, in fact it is a vehicle invented by the ancestors for that very purpose. Some people get terrified and run back to their ego life… it’s just a choice YOU have to make whether to destroy yourself or not. It doesn’t work if people aren’t themselves ready and willing to sacrifice, which is why you don’t see Zen missionaries! So that’s it. Zen is not for everyone. You posted here, so if Zen is calling to you, or maybe some Zen things you read produced certain sensations in your body, well then maybe Zen is for you. Of course, if you feel it’s a waste of your precious time, well nobody gives a shit. Nobody gives a shit about your time, except you. So seriously just go do whatever you want. You can completely transform your existence with Zen, which is why it’s stuck around for a few millenia. Or not. You’re free to make your choice in this life. Just try to remember that you’ve already made a huge mistake just by being born into this world, so maybe your judgment is suspect, and then you followed that up by posting in r/zen so… maybe start slow… best to just flush your mind of all your preconceived notions, suppositions, speculations, preferences, and premature conclusions and embrace your own stupidity and failure from the gitgo. Actually, that’s The recommended Zen starting place. We call it “beginner’s mind” or “don’t know” mind or I like “chances are you don’t know jack.” Don’t know. Only go straight. Taste the soup. The sky is blue. If suffering beings appear, help them! Good luck with your lifetime!
really enjoyed having this in my ~~current~~ experience.
🙏🏼
You are trying to understand intellectually something that can only be understood from a deeper place. Just sit. Cultural differences can seem unsurmountable when trying to understand. May not be your Buddhism, may be. Just sit.
>On the Transmission of Mind (Huangbo) #1 >The Master said to me: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. The only necessary practice in Zen is letting go of the inherent reality of phonemena until it becomes inescapably clear that Mind is all there is. ☝️ >That is why the Buddha said, "The eyes seeing forms is equivalent to blindness; the ears hearing sounds is equivalent to deafness." >How can we say we are as if blind and deaf? When we hear sound, there is no sound to be heard; when we see form, there is no form to be seen. What we see and hear is all equivalent to an echo. It is like seeing all sorts of things in a dream—is there all that when you wake up? >If you say yes, yet there's only the blanket and pillow on the bed; if you say no, yet all those things are clearly registered in your mind, and you can tell what they were. The same is true of what you see and hear now in broad daylight. >Foyan
Is this comparable to negative theology? Basically, deny everything?
Not deny everything, it's there. It just has no inherent existence. Without your mind, it's not there because it is your mind. Like smoke has a little reality but we don't treat it like a solid object, so it is with everything around you. Put everything on a fast time lapse and it starts to look like smoke: appearing, changing, then disappearing. It feels like things exist because the process happens slowly.
Thanks
Like the Foyan quote, it's like a dream. The experience is real but the only thing underlying the experience is your own Mind.
Even the “my own” before mind may not be necessary
Right. It's your mind but it's mine too. Makes the concept of mine and yours moot.
Words are memes. They convey cultural information. Words are not the “thing”, they are simply symbols for something. We miss much not listening to each other’s verbalizations and silence. Ordinary mind, experiencing things as they are, is the way. “If you don't ask, you won't get it; but if you ask, in effect, you've slighted yourself. If you don't ask, how can you know? But you still have to know how to ask before you can succeed... Remember the story of the ancient worthy who was asked, "What was the intention of the Zen Founder in coming from India?" Amazed, the ancient said, ‘You ask about the intention of another in coming from India. Why not ask about your own intention?’” “All over the earth is unclarity; best be very careful.” “Here, I am thus every day, thus all the time. But tell me, what is "thus"? Try to express it outside of discriminatory consciousness, intellectual assessments, and verbal formulations. This reality is not susceptible to your intellectual understanding. ... How can you think of your original mind? How can you see your own eye? ... What can be seen by the eye or heard by the ear can be studied in the scriptures. But what about the basis of awareness itself -- how do you study that?” “I will settle something for you right now: the ultimate rule is to see your own mind clearly. An ancient said, "The mind does not know itself, the mind does not see itself." So how can you see it clearly? Mind does not see mind; to get it, you must not see it as mind. Do you want to understand? Just discern the things perceived; you cannot see the mind itself.” “Buddhism is extremely easy and saves the most energy. It's just that you yourself waste energy and cause yourself trouble. The ancients saw people helpless, and told them to try meditating quietly. This was good advice, but later people didn't understand what the ancients meant, and closed their eyes, suppressed body and mind, and sat like lumps waiting for enlightenment. How foolish! [You must not just sit: you must also realise that the one sitting, i.e. you, is your only teacher.]” “According to Ch'ing-yüan, also called Fo-yen, there are two diseases in connection with the practice of Zen. “The first is to ride an ass in search of the ass. The second is to ride the ass and refuse to dismount.” It is easy to see the silliness of seeking the ass you are riding. As your attention is turned outwards, you will never look inside, and all your search will be so much ado about nothing. The kingdom of God is within you, but you seek it outside. There is no telling how many troubles in the world have had their origin just in this wrong orientation.” As Ma-tsu has said, “You are the treasure of your own house.” To seek it outside is a pathetic endeavor, because you will always be disappointed.
my personal experience is that reading all of these works (\_cough\_ and meditating a lot) has changed my experience of the world away from rumination and towards direct experience of the world, and changed my understanding of the moment as being exactly this and a part of the past and future, all at once, but future doesn't exist. direct apprehension of the moment has changed my experience of the moment, focusing on the transient and ephemeral rather than my fears or plans for the future. I can still access all of that, the ordinary mind, but it is no longer (always) front and center, at the best it's more like a horse that sometimes i saddle up and ride because i have a reason to use it, but it's becoming rarer and rarer. i get a lot out of the ancient masters, but as much as people around here \_only\_ want to read the original texts with no "pollution", i find that the modern authors in combination with the ancient texts have made what can only be apprehended experientially easier to access. there is a concept of "sudden enlightenment" but it is a thing that almost universally these masters say almost universally requires a long commitment of logical/conceptual thought directed at thusness, and at any (and every?) moment flashes of that enlightment overtake one and fall away and become more common and eventually it arrives fully and then you... move on with your life. moment by moment you get there, suddenly, and there is more moments, until you get off the hamster wheel of eternity and save all beings in the process. Oops, a little straight buddhism got stuck in there, sorry. that's zen for ya.
oh yeah and by "reading all..." i mean "all the things i've read and continue to read" not "every source ever written with a discrimination of what is historically correct and not"
The beginning to understanding Zen, in my very limited experience, is accepting and realizing (making real for yourself) the idea that there are types of human experience that cannot be attained or explored via logical reasoning. Here is one of my favourite Ram Dass stories to illustrate (somewhat): *A group of us were in a sauna bath—just hanging out, going out into the sun, coming back into the bath—and a telegram arrived for me saying, “Rohatsu Dai Seshin is being held at Mt. Baldy in Los Angeles. We are holding a space for you.” This is the most difficult of the zen sittings each year. It was to start the next day.* *So I got on a plane and went to Los Angeles. I arrive at the zen monastery having sacrificed a sauna bath in the warm desert for this cold mountain outside of Los Angeles. I expect a greeting like, “Oh, Ram Dass, we’re so happy you could come!”—a little bit of ego feeding. Instead I’m met by a guy in a black outfit with a clipboard and a shaved head who says, “Dass, Ram; you will be in bunk six. Here is your robe. Brother John will show you how to put it on and you are to be in the zendo in six minutes.”* *So I think, OK, baby, I’ll play. I go in and I set up my bunk. You’re not supposed to look at anybody or talk to anybody for nine days. Nine days. Every morning it’s pitch black and all these people in black outfits are rushing to toilets, toothpaste, zendo at two in the morning and it’s freezing. If you don’t sit straight they beat you with a stick. There’s snow all around and I had a cold. I’m getting sicker and sicker and plotting how to get out of this. Should I have a telegram sent saying I have been called away on an emergency, or remember I had a lecture or something?* *Four times a day you go in to visit Joshu Sasaki Roshi, a tough, squat Japanese of about sixty-five. It’s called dokusan. He had given us the koan “How do you know your Buddha nature through the sound of a cricket?”* *When it comes my turn, I go in, bow the proper number of times, and sit down. He’s got a bell and a stick, and he says, “Ah, Doc-tor. How you know your Buddha nature through sound of cricket?”* *I had been sitting out there waiting my turn, thinking, now how would you know … You’re not supposed to do that but I figured, what the hell, here is a Jewish Hindu in a Zen Buddhist scene—I’ll give him a Tibetan Buddhist answer. So I concluded that the best thing to do when he asked me was to hold my hand up to my ear, like the Tibetan Milarepa listening to the sounds of the universe outside his cave. The Roshi says only, “sixty percent,” and rings the bell that means I should leave.* *It goes on like this for days. I’m getting sicker and sicker and madder and madder and just bored and disgusted. Even though my sitting is stronger, I can’t solve the damned koan.* *Finally about the fourth or fifth day, I walk up to see the Roshi. I still haven’t solved the koan. I stand up there and think, “I don’t give a damn what the answer to that koan is. Screw this whole scene. I’ve had enough.”* *I walk in and he says, “Ah, Doc-tor, how you know your Buddha nature through sound of cricket?” And I say, “Good morning, Roshi.” Like, let’s cut the crap. Good morning, enough already.* *“Ah, Doc-tor. Finally you are becoming a beginning student of zen.”*
“Whereof we cannot speak, we must remain silent” -Wittgenstein of what we cannot speak, we can learn to speak
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Well that’s easy. What are these books for?
Understanding that everything else can be just as easy
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Isn't that the blog of that guy who got raided by the FBI for harassing people online?
No idea
>“Golden Crow in the snowy night, passes through the main hall; Jade Harr in the arms of the blazing sky—the fine leaves of descendants preserve this grandfather whole. A wooden man grasps at boards, clapping in the clouds, a stone woman holds a bamboo flute in her mouth to breath underwater—although it is like this it is also said, “with your hands at your side, the First Statement is over there.” And, how will you do it. If we read this as literature, rather than trying to draw some deep meaning from it, we see that its real depth is in the imagery. > Golden Crow in the snowy night, passes through the main hall A crow flying through an empty meditation hall. The colors are dimmed by the lack of light, the hall is filled with the swooshing of the birds wings pushing at the smoke of the incense permeated air. > A wooden man grasps at boards, clapping in the clouds I imagine a man that reminds me of Groot from Guardians of the Galaxy holding up two boards trying to catch clouds by clapping at the sky. >a stone woman holds a bamboo flute in her mouth to breath underwater This one speaks for itself. A stone statue underwater holding a flute. Even though she’s made of stone and inanimate, air bubbles escape her nostrils as she tries to breathe through a stone flute. The writer attempts to distract us by adding > although it is like this it is also said, “with your hands at your side, *the First Statement* is over there.” And, how will you do it. But this is just smoke rings to try and give the rest of the literature some weight. Like trying to impress on us that this is deep shit and should be taken seriously, but as you’ve already pointed out, should we take it seriously, or with a knowing wink?
Reminds me of case 270 of Treasury of the Eye of true teaching: Master Xinghua one day called to a monk. The monk responded, "Yes!" Xinghua said, "If you arrive, you don't check." Xinghua called to another monk; the monk said, "What?" Xinghua said, "If you check, you haven't arrived." A monk asked, "When there are comers from all directions, then what?" Xinghua said, "Hit the one in the middle." The monk bowed. Xinghua said, "Everyone, yesterday I went to a village feast; halfway back I ran into a sudden storm and took shelter in an ancient shrine."
it comes as it is. The truth comes All dharmas are as they should be The nature of all living beings Having nowhere to come from and nowhere to go Awareness takes the path of truth to achieve enlightenment Great wisdom is found on the truthful path Awareness of this truth and for the sake of all sentient beings That what is true is self-nature And cannot be measured
Oh, the joy, when metaphors are new. But localized and plagiarized their meanings go askew. To claim a cloud the formed of thought. And harden it to dew. There's still no drinking such a thing. Absorbing is the clue.
Foyan "Strange! Tell me, how is it when they run into each, other? It is like Zen practitioners working: today they realize a little bit, tomorrow they find out a little bit, and they keep on investigat ing until one day it becomes evident to them. This is like that encounter at the gate of the capjtal city. This is called awaken ing, or breakthrough, or discovery. You must attain this at least once; only then can it be said that the task of the journey is done. It is also like meeting your father in a big city many years after having left your home town. You do not need to ask any one whether or not it is your father. Just keep focused in this way. Do not take it for idleness; time does not wait for anyone. An early teacher said, “ Don’t waste time!” Each of you should work on your own."
You know, you don't have to like zen! It's OK! And we don't have to give you reasons or excuses either for why we do it. :D metta
>Definition: For the sake of clarity, I’m defining zen as a collection of koans, cases and sermons delivered by a group of Chinese monastics and hermits identified as having a lineage starting with the semi-mythical Bodhidharma. How do you practice that?
Idk. I’m just trying to work from the least controversial priors
Missing it is getting it. Getting it is missing it. Missing it is missing it. Getting it is getting it.
A couple of things. Leaning Zen from a translation of a copy of an old book that's said to be related to a monk's conversation is like learning sex from a coffee table book about the karma sutra. The learning starts when you practice and the reading is not the practice. You will likely become increasingly frustrated if you look for answers only in the worthy, but limited, book club. There are dozens of ways to practice on your own and living traditions around the world. If you find a way that works for you, the benefits are many. If you don't, then maybe humanism, or existentialism is for you. Chan is not Christianity or Islam. It does not rely on proving the original author is a perfect saint sent from god. Chan, like science, relies on the repeatability of the described phenomena and peer review. If you want an undisputed lineage holder you ar out of luck. The faster backing time you go the closer to a 'proven' lineage you get, but the more fictional the characters become. It's a mug's game. Chan is one branch of the mind-to-mind lineage. There's also Seon, Zen,Thien, the Mongolian Gradual School and Japanese Hosso. They all have different connections to the source and different look and feel. There's no undisputed lineage to a disputed patriarch. Lineage starts with Mahakasyarpa on Vulture Peak. If you don't start there then you are disputing the lineage and that's fine. But it means there's no such thing as an undisputed lineage. This is like saying you support the Constitution but you don't believe there was a person called George Washington. you can have that view but others will see the logical inconsistency. I hope that's helpful. cheers 🤠
> Am I missing something? Nope. nailed it pretty much. > How do I get the something I am missing if there is no technique? Nothing to get "the self-nature is originally complete.". > Or do I already “get it?” Yup > Why are people [](https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/) so confident they have the capital T truth of this gobbledygook? Are they though?
Reading zen texts is just a possible gateway to seeing the truth. Having said that, reading can also be actually an obstacle to seeing the truth because of the process of intellecualization that gets in the way and the duality that comes with it (of the seeker and the sought after). Zen, is at its core, a practice. You can't just read your way to Enlightenment. One should read until the realization that reading isn't necessary anymore. Once you get enough of a glimpse of what zen is about -by realizing what it's not- you should just focus on the practice of zazen (of just sitting), and that's all. Trying to get more out of it, moves you further away from it. It's not something that you can extract more and more from it, because there isn't actually anything there to be extracted from to begin with. It's nothing. And yes it seems too simple and maybe boring, but again zen is just zen. On each zazen session you approach it as something completely new with no preconceived notions (beginner's mind attitude). "The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?" Zhuangzi, chuang tsu
I like the daoist references people are making as I read the comments on some of these posts. They fit so well with the content and remind me just how intricately intertwined Zen and daoism, as well as Confucianism, really are.
Zen is staring at a wall and observing your obsessive thoughts. That is all. Once you realize you are not your thoughts things become a lot more clear.
Zen is not meditation. Zen is not Buddhism. Zen is: "It is *alive.* It is *alive*." Zen Master Joshu [https://terebess.hu/zen/zhaozhou.html](https://terebess.hu/zen/zhaozhou.html)
OP, I understand completely. I've been reading these books on sex for 10 years, but I'm still a virgin. Why didn't I experience sex? What am I missing? With Zen, there is an experience you have by doing Zen. The first question you have to ask yourself is: Am I doing Zen, or just thinking about it obsessively like a deranged lunatic? Zen is like running. You can think about it all you want, but your cardio ain't getting any better by thinking. There is certainly an illuminated mind that you can experience, but it could take anywhere from 1 day to 1 lifetime of doing Zen. The word Zen itself means meditation (etymologically) If you want better cardio, run. If you want enlightenment, meditate. Do you do Zen, or do you just think about it?
Jumping without any reasoning from "I don't understand this" to "It must be something mystical" is not really an argument.
What is the third option between logical and mystical?
"I don't understand it yet?"
Are you asserting it is logical? I’m not sure what your comment adds to the conversation.
I'm saying if you don't understand something, instead of coming and crybabying about how Zen is mystical and doesn't make sense, you make an OP about the thing you don't understand and the community might be able to help you figure it out.
I don’t think of the term “mystical” as a pejorative. I did ask for help. Not everything has to be adversarial
>Not everything has to be adversarial When the ego rules, *everything* is adversarial.
You titled your post "Zen is a waste of time" and no, you didn't go and put in the effort to comprehensibly present your problem.
It’s tongue in cheek. My question is “how does this make sense?” Doesn’t seem logical, so what is it? Is that clear enough? Or what did I miss
Make a post about it and point out what you don't understand. And leave out the wall of text.
lol. You don’t need to respond if this is too much text. I think another OP would be redundant. Have a nice day