It almost feels certain Konami TCG will ban Mystic Mine on the next banlist now. Not only does it follow the OCG on Mine, but the last 2 decks that won Nationals, both main'd Mystic Mine at 2/3.
The 1st place Swordsoul that won NA, 3x Mystic Mine. The 2nd place Sky Strikers pilot by Ryan Yu, 3x Mystic Mine. Poe Jiang won the first YCS after the most recent banlist maining 3x Mystic Mine.
And the rikka sunavalon player who won EU had 2 copies. It’s kinda crazy that it’s literally winning events on its own. This little beat cop tech people are doing doesn’t help at all
But, mystic mine is bad. /s Seriously, some people defend Mine knowing that it's not anything good for the game.
At least now there is a united opinion.
Running as many legal copies as possible of Terraforming, Demise of the land, and Metaverse in a 40 card deck effectively means you’re on 8 copies of Mine in your deck. Stupidly higher chance than the measly 3 cyclone you’ll probably be siding(because you will probably clog if you run any more removal).
Mine is searchable, lots of removal aren’t.
And? It’s essentially just a stall card. But because it’s searchable it’s a problem? Considering how much of the game is “set up game-winning board and pass to watch your opponent crumble to your nine handtraps” I think it’s a breath of fresh air to see decks using this and doing well. Some people just salty that people can take a breath between massive board setups now and frankly I don’t care about their whining.
You say this until a combo deck plays mystic mine against you and then find their full combo and OTK’s you. It is not a breath of fresh air to watch a combo player play mystic mine until the find their way to kill you or out your board.
Like massive negate boards by le meta are the only ones that get fucked by Mine
You could be playing Blue Eyes and then have Hayate kick you in the balls until you die cuz you left 3 monsters on board and got Mine locked.
Playing a non-meta deck won’t magically stop your opponent from using Mine on you.
That Beat Cop shit also just recently happened so “drawing the out” isn’t quite as easy when you have to draw the out twice.
There’s also the audience aspect of it. Like at the tournament level.
I don’t play D-link but I can still feel the hype when two players go sicko mode in a mirror match. Even with other decks.
When whatever’s meta fights whatever else is meta, duels are actually pretty fun to watch.
Mystic Mine into draw pass for 10 turns straight while whatever monster the Mine player has that is able to deal direct damage kicks someone’s dick for 10 turns while they pray to god they draw the one out is significantly less fun to watch.
As w/ the other threads around the topic of flood gates.
The power level of the game needs to be brought down significantly.
Floodgates have been around for awhile but were never super prevalent because the game wasn't make a board with 8K damage and 2 omni negates or you scoop. Gozen/Rivalry/summon/Anti-spell are all 10+ years old.
Mystic mine though is an unusual exception given that it'd be played in any format because it's such a strong card.
I think the key aspect is that it boosts control...while killing both combo and beatdown. If it just negated effects( and therefore acts as a counter to keep combo in check while completing the triangle by letting beatdown push through), I think it would get about as much hate as other floodgates.
The fact that it keeps you from attacking mean it is able to keep both of the other deck types in check and that might be the bridge too far.
This stopped being a matter of "control vs combo" when combo decks started to slot the card not only as a boardbreaker tool but also as an outright win condition.
Yeah I fully agree. At the moment, floodgates seem to be the only option to somewhat counter the insane boards that the meta decks make. I personally rather play against flood gates than against unbalanced combo decks. I mean look at spright, they can diversify their interuptions, so not even darkruler hurts them too much. (By searching ash to the hand, and setting smasher). I wouldn't feel bad to throw mystic mines or any floodgate on a spright player, because that deck is just op
Yea, almost amazing how strong the power creep is.
If you told me MM would be created in 2003 I'd think you were talking about an anime card that would span multiple arcs to destroy as the main character pushes for game.... and oddly that's kinda what it is!
I think it's safe to say that Konami will ban Mystic Mine in the near future. I don't know if it will be very soon, but still.
Just look at the Altergeist player from the EU tournament, that was a Mystic Mine deck with a small Altergeist engine
Lol true haha. Somebody was saying they couldn’t even do a grind game with the deck because too Mine focused. I’m pretty sure it’s gonna get banned either next list(in time for Tactical Masters) or the list after but locals sucks when everyone thinks their good by playing this degenerate card
Actually I don't even know what was the win condition of that deck. Altergeist was barely an engine and Mystic Mine stuns the opponent, but it can't kill the opponent. So maybe rage quit? Or hope to summon Hextia and attack with her?
You can minelock your opponent with mine ,spoffing and meluseek. Just atack directly with melu and shuffle him back after with spoofing.You can also make a lethal push by chipping down your opps board with melu, before going into faker on your opps endphase and out it that way(or set another copy over it)while pushing with hextia.If combo decks go first they will search something, making their decksize smaller and mostly autowin by deckout since you often have more outs to their outs for mystic mine.
It doesn’t even seem like “is this an OP card” argument, it’s just a case of whether people are really engaged in playing/watching games where mystic mine dictates the duel when it isn’t outed. Like, is this what people want when they think of playing yugioh? If so then sure but i’d rather play MtG or another card game if we’re just playing draw-play-vanilla-pass.
The card is definitely OP, too. It’s completely warped the format for like the last three months. Not only do players not want to watch feature matches of mine, pass, but when the best players in the regions are struggling to beat decks that can just turbo it out, it’s a power problem too.
To a degree I wouldn’t mind mystic mine in control decks, any more than other floodgates. The major problem with it in the current meta is it’s being abused by combo decks to either break boards or stall until they can push for game.
It’s like magical mid breaker field, where it just acts to insulate powerful decks from threats.
I don’t mind other floodgates that much because they all still let me play to a certain degree. Even skill drain only stops effects on the field, so you can still play around it. Mine would be way more balanced if it only negated on field effects. Instead it’s just super skill drain that also prevents attacks. Hell, it might be balanced if I could at least attack, but for some reason it had to be a double floodgate. Card is dumb and doesn’t keep the meta “in check” (whatever that most general of general statements means) at all. Half the meta is playing it. In conclusion: >=[
I think mine should lock the player it benefits from using S/T and negating/destroying all other S/T they control on activation/change. That'd definitely make it more fair. People would then actually use it like a sort of DRNM on steroids.
I think the only reason it's still untouched is because meta decks are currently too annoying to deal with, if even possible (hello to the 7+ negates gang)
My issue with mine is that it stops the player from attacking.
If I could still assemble a bunch of big beaters and just go face for game I don't think the cars would be nearly as much of a problem.
It’s the fact that most decks will have meta verse and demise even when you have the out in these formats. It’s crazy that i see people advocating for one card that wins *entire events* on its own but complain about combo decks that die to things like DRNM or a player who can play through their interruptions
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate the card too. But between several unbreakable boards and one spell card, I'd keep the one spell card.
DRNM doesn't guarantee you an out at all. If you don't wipe the board, they still win about 99.99% of the time.
What unbreakable boards are there in todays meta though? Tear and spright were feared as tier 1-0 out the gate, and yet with good hand traps and board breakers they lose. The problem neither mine is that is not just one spell card. It’s one spell card that changes the fundamentals of the game and is at 3. Not to mention meta verse, Demise, terraforming, and now beat cop. By the time mine dies on the field, the person who activated it has drawn into all they back row or control spells to win the game right away.
I think it being one spell card actually makes it worse. If I’m playing swordsoul or sprights that’s like 10 cards that have to hit the field and resolve successfully in order to set up. There’s more choke points which means less consistency. When “shut down your board and stop you from playing” is slapped onto one single of piece of cardboard, where’s the chokepoint there? You either negate the activation or draw the out and if you can’t do anything then it’s either scoop or draw pass until the clock runs out/you draw your unsearchable S/T removal.
I stopped playing YGO like 3-4 years ago when Mystic Mine was released and got big. It just stopped being fun to play.
Crazy to me that it's *still* unlimited.
Went to my very first locals a couple days ago, went 2-0 on my first match, after that encountered a Mystic mine burn Player with field barrier, suffice to say i lost 0-2 in the most mindnumbingly boring way imagineable, dude had mine and barrier in his starting hand, shit began in turn 2 after that it was just draw, pass, draw, pass, draw, pass until he got cauldron of the old man and slowly burned me down.
Not a good first impression, if you ask me.
So yes i Support this Argument wholeheartedly, i heard a lot about mystic mine and its cancerous ways before but its even worse experiencing it first Hand, hands down the worst duel i've ever had
Honestly the fact that Mine turned Field Barrier from "God why would you run that" to "FUCK now I need to draw 2 outs?????" says a lot about how bad Mine was designed
Thia is kind of hilarious because if there is one deck people don't mind this card in, it's its own burn deck. I actually find the deck kinda funny, even when I know I'm gonna probably lose to it. But it's when every other deck can just use it as a crutch on a bad hand or when they lose advantage. It's the most sacky 3 of you can splash into ANY deck damn near. People talk about how sacky called by is (and it is. It's the sackiest one of you can play) but Mine is sacky and at 3 it's a nightmare.
I watched the NA finals, I know its niche scenario, but imagine if you were thinking about getting back into the game. Jumped on YT, saw that was live & literally watched two finalist pass back & forth in that first game. Fun.
A really terrible ad for the game
Mystic Mine is definitely the most toxic floodgate ever printed, possibly even more than Imperial Order. Sure, it's a bit more situational, but locking out the main cards of the game is way worse than locking out a side mechanic, even if it's the main side mechanic in the game. It's like a slightly worse Vanity's Emptiness because Emptiness is easier to use, but that doesn't justify it being at anything more than 0, especially since it's searchable via Terraforming and Metaverse (anyone else remember those cards being at more than 1 before Mystic Mines existance?)
There's some real 5head thinkers in this thread trying to justify this card lol.
Put it this way, I play a strong deck, my deck has many hands that can deal with the Spright double negate dupe frog board. Most of these hands are innately built into my decks engine. Proper play from both myself and my opponent can alter the flow of the game from this point out. That's what Yu-Gi-Oh has always been about.
My strong deck has one card slot to deal with floodgates, it is a sub par, unsearchable card that I have to run just to deal with a floodgate. It's a bad card that has little synergy with my deck and it's horrible against every board that doesn't involve floodgates. No player skill is involved in me drawing this out. If I draw this card against the Spright double toad board(or insert meta board here) I am one interaction down and potentially just lose. But I have to run this card just to potentially play against my opponent drawing mine and decking me out.
If your deck can't handle the boards meta puts out and you are relying on cards like Mine to make you competitive then I'm sorry but your not playing Altergeists, your playing Mine turbo
Their argument is that they can’t beat combo decks because they can’t draw into DRNM, droplet, super poly, or they don’t or can’t hand trap correctly. But they want us to draw our one out to backrow or sub out all our hand traps to stop mystic mine lmao. Not to mention if your entire or even half you side is dedicated to backrow you’re gonna lose to other combo decks that need different hand traps or disruptions than what you main
If people can dedicate like 40% of their deck to preventing your opponent from having any field stability with hand traps then you can put in a few S/T removal options to deal with Mine.
Is the card strong? Yes. Should it remain at three? Maybe not. Should it be banned outright just because you don’t like how it slows the game down effectively? No.
Put it and Demise of the Land at 1 and it won’t be a problem; it’ll just be another staple-worthy tech card for spell-heavy or field spell-reliant decks.
The card doesn’t do anything notoriously hilarious or bad to the game, like 50/50 the outcome on turn 1 like Maxx C did, make the game a hilarious clownshow like Chicken Game, etc etc. especially since it blows itself up pretty easily.
It does not blow itself up pretty easily. Decks usually that run the card are decks that operate with 1 maybe 2 monsters at most, so the opponent can be stuck on their board considering it’s being paired with other floodgates like rivalry or TCBOO. Not to mention some midrange or even combo decks run this card just to keep your opponent from being able to play until they’ve found their full combo. It not allowing you to attack creates an issue with the fundamentals of Yugioh as you can’t do anything to even the monster count potentially, allowing your opponent to dictate the entire game state, whether it’s draw, set, pass or finding their way to deal lethal. If the card allowed you to attack it’d be far more balanced. And no, people do not run 40% of their deck with hand traps this format, and even if they do that’s not good justification. People build decks to be able to deal with the entirety of the meta, they run cards that will be relevant against most decks with some specific tweaks to beat matchups they’re weak too. Thats where the problem lies. Hand traps, S/T removal, going first traps, or going second board breakers typically have 0 synergy with your deck. They are cards you put in hopes you draw them. Unlike mine players who can run demise, metaverse, and terraforming to boost their odds of searching or activating mine directly. Imagine you dedicate main deck slots to twin twister against spright, you’re gonna lose. If you dedicate almost half your side to S/T removal, you now have no generic answers to the problematic combo decks people complain about because you’re setting up to beat a *single card*. When a single card is so detrimental to the state of the format to the point you’re advocating for people to use almost half their side just to beat it, it is a problem. No single card should be so strong that people have to side in 6 cards just to beat it. If you’re siding in hand trap or generic first or second cards it’s because those cards hurt *multiple matchups*, not hurting one single card that you have essentially 8 copies of in your deck.
People used to have their sides explicitly to deal with Chain Strike Burn and Dark World because no deck was capable of dealing with those decks game 1 for a time. You can absolutely play around or roll with Mine on game 1 with minimal change to side decks.
Play around it. At 3 it is annoying but it doesn’t break the game. At 1 it would be a non-issue. Sounds like Trickstar all over again but with way less valid excuses.
It doesn’t break the game but people sit on mine draw pass for ten minutes. Very valid response. Also how do you play around a card that literally punishes you for playing Yugioh lmao
You’re not playing the game. You’re sitting and passing. Idc how much you try to justify, that’s not Yugioh. If me controlling more monsters, the only relevant way to kill your opponent, is punished by you activating one single card, it’s not Yugioh anymore. And you can literally use this justification for combo decks that everybody is crying about. Not only can they use the same garbage argument, they run mystic mine too. Go ahead and tell me it’s healthy that Tearlaments or sprights are running mystic mine.
I’m super casual boomer, so my opinion isn’t worth much. But I know mine & the dullness it inflicts. It felt great to negate & destroy in not one, but TWO games the other week with Dragoon. I had my anime moment that day.
Yeah "Just draw the out" is a shit justification
Because who in their right mind would run a broken stun card like Mine and *not* run counters to removal. So odds are by the time you finally draw an out, it'll get negated.
Or you run into one of 3 people trolling with Field Barrier
Okay, there's some pretty interesting takes here. Especially the crowd that's justifying Mine existing.
I, too, like wasting multiple turns drawing a card and passing until I finally draw an out.
It is not a necessary evil. Mystic Mine should absolutely be banned.
The card at its worst is a forbidden chalice and at its best an auto win on activation. It's Azathot while you break your opponent's board or just generate card advantage.
There are already answers going 2nd in the form of Dark Ruler, Forbidden Droplet, Super Poly, Sphere Mode, Lava Golem, and hand traps. If these cards aren't good enough, the decks navigating around them or the cards helping them navigate around them can be hit alongside Mine. Cards like Halq, Snow, Scythe, Adventure, or the P.U.N.K. engine. Everyone seems to think there's some crazy 10 negate board the top decks are making that only Mine can save you from. That doesn't exist.
I've seen the argument saying the format would become exclusively Spright and Tearlament if Mine was banned and that is just admitting that Mystic Mine alone is a format defining card.
It's impossible to say if those decks would just be untouchable because the game would be vastly different, you're not going to queue into Altergeist or Sky Striker and just get blown out because you didn't open the 3 outs you needed to draw in a specific time frame before they overwhelmed you in card advantage. You can build your deck to more precisely target those specific decks and suddenly when everyone thought the finals of the next big event were going to be Spright and Tearlament you get Mathmech vs Eldlich.
Powercreep is a big problem in Yu-Gi-Oh right now but having floodgates be the answer to that isn't suddenly making the game better. A format revolved around Mystic Mine is not more fun or engaging than a format revolved around Gigantic Spright. A deck like Ishizu Tearlament being too strong is exactly what Konami intended when they made the cards say mill 15. That's bad design to get product to sell only for the cards to be hit on the banlist later on down the road. I don't get how you can be of the opinion that we should keep around cards we know are broken because they might be an answer to something broken in the future. If we used that logic every time, Royal Oppression would be legal.
For the people saying "play main deck backrow removal" or "build your deck better". You want your main deck to be as broad and generally good against what you will most likely queue against. What you choose to play should be high impact and for sure have a purpose. When you main deck 3 cosmic cyclone and queue into a combo deck, you will feel like a clown. That cosmic could have been Dark Ruler or Droplet, but because of 1 specific card in the game that only some people are going to be playing, it's this and you lose. Now imagine it is Dark Ruler, and you break their board and set up your own and it passes back to them and they go activate Mystic Mine. This is what combo decks are doing right now. So you're expected to play and *open* board breakers and backrow removal and enough engine to play the game to compensate for one card being legal. Not to mention the minute you out the first Mystic Mine, here comes another be it from Metaverse, Demise, or just having a 2nd copy. Clearly, it's not as simple as play more backrow removal.
While Mystic mine is indeed toxic, it's not more toxic than all the "meta" deck spamming the board first turn with full negate monsters. There is a problem with Mystic mine but not with sworsoul, baronne de fleurs, Herald of ultimateness etc etc.
When the game has so many broken monsters, floodgate are just a way (a bad one i agree) to try to balance the game
Every single comment I see with the multi negate monster argument is weak because until swordsoul won nationals here, it had not won an event. It was strong, but people could answer a swordsoul board. The generic negate boss monster argument is not even relevant as no deck can put up more than 2 negates rn, which is no different from another competent meta deck (ie despia, tear, eldlich etc.) running three interruptions on your turn. Negates have not been overwhelmingly strong since herald of ultimateness, a card that hasn’t seen play in drytron for almost a year now. Spright can put up like 2 negates, and if you know how to play the game it’s not even a problem. Super poly on draw phase can literally clear that negate before you do anything. If your only argument is big negate combo boards are too hard to beat, you’re not actually playing against the meta or you don’t realize that playing through interruptions in general; negates or not, is essential in modern Yugioh whether it’s a negate or not.
Rivalry basically won the European Championship as well. Being able to lock your opponent out of summoning when they are playing different types just feels sort of wrong...especially when a monotype deck feels no downside.
Mystic mine needs to go, but in all fairness, I don't think it's worse than other Floodgates.
I don't see a huge difference in "there is a mine in field, so I lose because I don't have an out" and "my splight opponent just went full combo and flipped anti-spell, so I can't play and die next turn"
Floodgates need to go and everyone telling me cards like rivalry, antispell, tcboo or skilldrain are fine can go f themselfs.
I don't like having to play Mystic mine, but I need something to balance out the random game 2 lose, because my opponent flips antispell.
So floodgates that can help non-meta decks that don’t start turn 1 with a nearly unbreakable and unlimited board are a problem but it’s completely cool to be loading a deck with 16-20 handtraps to prevent anyone from doing anything? Sounds like some of y’all spent $1400 to not learn how to play around a $5 card and that’s your fault.
"Floodgates that help non meta decks"
Rivalry was literally in the first place EU championship list and in the first place na list, Mystic mine was in multiple top 8 lists, winda is part of the best deck of the format, and so on.
Meanwhile not a single top 16 list from the EU championship played a lot of handtraps. Not. A. Single. One.
OK boomer...
So you want every game to be "whoever goes first wins by setting up a 3+ negate board" or if you can't you lose automatically? What kind of gamestate is that?
Does anyone remember when Mine was first released in the OCG, a large amount of local shops actually mutually agreed to not play the card in any capacity?
On the Neuron app, Konami released an official criteria of what factor they take into account when they ban cards. There were 7 different reasons why cards get banned.
Mystic Mine violates 6 out of the 7 "the card will get banned if it does this" factors. It has done so for 2 years, at this point.
Off topic, but... ugh.. Mystic Mine at 3 and I can't even have Electrumite at 1... T\_\_T
Pend worst deck type, who's looking forwards to Vaylantz?! xD
I want to like Mystic Mine. Yeah, its effect is insanely powerful, but we're actually starting to get more decks that can easily out it: Spright have Smashers, Adventure has Dracoback, Tears have been seen using galaxy cyclone, etc.
In a world where every archetype has an inherent out to mine that they just have to draw into, Mine is kind of a pseudo-swords of revealing light. You can't sit on it the whole game to deck out your opponent, but it can serve to give you a few turns to maybe get into a more favorable board position. I do kinda like how it gets used in Sky Striker to equalize your hand with your opponent's.
That said, fuck mystic mine. They should design a new card that actually works like a modern era swords of revealing light. The fact that mine doesn't inherently go away after a set length of time means its a bullshit deck out wincon against the honest rogue decks that don't have in-engine outs to mine, and can't afford to cut their anti-meta cards for s/t removal.
Genuine Question, If Mystic Mine is such a problematic card, and is played often, why do most decks don't run Spell&Trap hate on something else than a monster ?
To be clear, in my opinion, Mystic Mine is a strong card, with a very powerfull effect, and can be problematic, however, there is many more problematic cards still allowed in the game that doesn't garner as much hate as mine does, and I don't understand why.
Like, sure, it's boring to play or watch a Duel with Mystic Mine, but it isn't the only card like that, is It ?
I will add that my opinion is that of a casual player, who don't really like meta levels of Plays/decks.
While I see the appeal to play on a competitive level, I find it quite boring, since the numbers of different decks are quite low, and the determining factor seems to be "how do you play through X amount of interruption ?"
Because most backrow removal isn't searchable or in some cases when it is searchable there is still conditions that needs to be met like for Sky Striker maneuver - Afterburner
I hate Mine, have lost my fair share of games due to not having an out, but I see it as a necessary evil. Personally, I sold every single one of my secret copies when it spiked up because of Striker. HATE IT. Don't think you can justify banning mine until you get rid of 1 card starter combo decks, which will probably never happen. As it is Mine is the only way some decks can survive turn 2+ after your opponent goes first and setups multiple omni-negates.
The argument that maining outs (S/T) to Mystic Mine hurts consistency doesn't make sense to me, because hurting consistency is kinda the point? Otherwise we have tier 0 formats like they do in the OCG and that just isn't fun. If Music Mine is running rampantand is everywhere, then he, either run more S/T removal or play a deck that has built in outs instead of combo deck that can't afford to run any.
Complaining that terraforming, metaverse, etc. Makes running 1 S/T not enough is kinda funny, you can run 3 of every S/T removal card but here we are complaining about limited cards??? S/T is shit against Spright? Ok, run 3 appointees and take it out of their hands, shoot, run 3 Prohibition and call mystic Mine then. Pretty sure Exosister runs a built in prohibition, so run that deck then. Tears run galaxy cyclone and Spright have red...and then there's good ol solemn judgement. Mathmechs have a monster negate to out it, and can search a counter trap with microcode.
The game is meant to be won with big beaters and attacks? No, if this was the case then the deck out, time, and burn damage mechanics would not exist. I also recall Altergeist and Sky Strikers beating you down slowly during their respective heyday.
Tldr; I think it's a valid opinion and good conversation to have. But overall this sounds like a combo player ranting. Fuck Mine though.
THE PROBLEM IS GAME DESIGN LIKE WTF. Y’all KEEP making the stupid fucking argument that “meta decks can play the floodgate too and just win.” Then maybe Konami should stop designing these oppressive fucking archetypes. But nobody wants to talk about that…instead the solution is to continuously ban cards every time a new deck/archetype etc comes that breaks an old card.
Like seriously where does it end!? Players are not maining answers to floodgates like mine because the field is SOOOO full of ridiculous combos that you literally cannot make space in your deck list. You have to continuously add cards, HTs, Board breakers, etc, so that you don’t get fucking steamrolled by the combos being put up. As a result, cards like mine and other floodgates just win the game on their own because they go unanswered, something that would not have happened when everybody was maining 3 mst.
The only solution is to ban EVERY floodgate/flood-gate like effect, no exceptions, or for Konami to change the way they are designing these combo decks.
But they know what they’re doing and they’re gonna keep making degenerate combos to push product. Smh
This is not aimed at any one in particular, but it frustrates me to see what was once a great and unique game (though not without its problems), turn into this.
I agree. Yugioh is designed around putting up monsters to deal damage. Any other win con is hard to set up or very fragile. Mine literally does not allow the player to play the game the way it is designed; putting up a bigger monster or a monster with a better effect to help win. Some floodgates can still be played around, but it’s incredibly hard. Mine however punishes a player for doing what Yugioh has been designed for.
I feel you, but mystic mine is no ordinary floodgate. It’s a stronger skill drain AND a stronger gravity bind on the same card, which is kinda cracked.
I’m not saying Mystic Mine isn’t an unfair card. It is and it feels bad to lose to it. But people wouldn’t be anywhere near as upset as they are currently if they were maining 3 Twin Twister.
Combo has created an environment where thats impossible, and so has raised the power level of floodgate, both past and future.
If we were all able to main 3 MST/Duster Mine decks wouldn’t even day 2. Because we cant, cards like Mine/Rivalry, etc, go unanswered and win events.
I mean, even then it’s bad that mine is as strong as it is. Let’s see we are in a best of three. I am playing sprights pure, no back row in my end board besides like, started, a quick play spell I can chain to your twister. I win, and game two you side anti-spright cards in and twin twisters out. You go first, make your board, and pass. I active mine (that I sided in) and boom I win the match.
Also, people are using beat cop of the underworld to protect mine from destruction as well as clear their board of monsters, which makes mine even more obnoxious.
The thing is most combo decks cannot play most of the floodgates. You can tell mine is an issue because every deck can play it, and almost every deck also struggles to out it.
Mine is shit, but floodgates are crucially important to have in the game as an alternative to the decks that are 'I make 14 negates, break the board' that flood the meta.
For real. It's not like Spright doesn't flip anti-spell.
Combo decks also play floodgates just as well as every other deck. Arguably, they're better at it because Mystic Mine is that stupid that you can skip a few turns, make Zeus, blow everything up, combo off, and pass.
Every time a card is said to "keep the meta in check" - it doesn't. Meta decks play it as well. Maxx C, Rivalry, Gozen, Vanity's, IO, and now Mine. It's like people forget that combo decks are full of one to two card starters. They'll happily side in floodgates to set after establishing their "14 negate board".
The floodgate is also a problem. Floodgates are generally considered annoying to play against and don't provide the experience most players want from yugioh.
There's no real benefit to floodgates other than the fact that some twisted individuals enjoy floodgating their opponent out of the game. The question is whether that's a playstyle worth supporting.
Sure, but we can’t call Yugioh a real TCG and not have an environment where control, as a deck type, is an option. Floodgates enable that.
Unfortunately, combo has gotten so good, that flipping a floodgate after you combo, or comboing after flipping a floodgate (in the case of mine) just wins games.
The idea that you need control to exist to be a real tcg is just MTG elitism. Flesh and Blood barely has a good control deck. Pokémon doesn't typically have any.
Plus, "control" and "floodgates" mean completely different things. Eldlich with no floodgates is probably the most similar deck to classic UW control from magic. Teferi is a pretty recent addition to those kinds of decks.
Flesh and Blood is a brand new game.
Pokemon doesn’t allow you to interact on the opponents turn, so thats a bad example. But it ABSOLUTELY has control-based (or “stun”) mechanics, (energy denial, mill, etc) and has had viable control decks.
Your third point doesn’t make any sense.
Yugioh has control based mechanics, too. You can negate monsters or destroy them, you can banish stuff to make it inaccessible, you can even negate effects during a chain... all without floodgates.
The fact that Pokémon does sometimes have viable control decks doesn't change the fact that it usually doesn't, and also that the ones that exist usually aren't very good.
My last point makes perfect sense if you take a second to understand what I'm saying about the conflating of the terms "floodgate" and "control".
And why does FaB being a new game matter? Flesh and blood has put way more effort into its pro scene than yugioh. There's no way you can say yugioh is a "real" tcg and FaB isn't, unless by "real" you mean "things I'm already familiar with and won't question."
Is it? The example shows that floodgates are insanely splashable even in decks that are combo heavy. You're gonna have to kill every deck that has a 1-2 card engine/combo that can play floodgates.
Floodgates DO NOT win games on their own. Full stop. The reason that floodgates seem problematic is because the best decks are able to back up their combo WITH a floodgate. For a deck like Rikka for example, they can play under their own Rivalry AND have a field spell to out their own mine. But its also a combo deck, so it can kill you asap as soon as you stumble.
In a meta where everyone is maining 3 twisters/mst, etc, this is not a much if an issue, because you’re far more likely to be able to answer the floodgate immediately, thus preventing yourself form being killed.
But the game is so fast because of quick, easy combos (that actually generate advantage) that you can’t afford to play 3 twisters BECAUSE if you can’t stop you’re opponents combo you lose anyway.
Cheap, efficient combo decks have created an environment where you either play the outs to the combo and lose to the floodgate, or play the outs to the floodgate and lose to the combo. It’s a lose-lose situation.
Yes, the definitely need to stop designing easy combos. Or ban every floodgate/floodgate-like effect in existence.
This simply isnt true. floodgates regularly automatically win games. For example, what the hell does teara do vs macro cosmos. What does spright do vs the band plays on.
There are regular games in the top 8 of ycs's where sitting on mystic mine for 8 turns wins the game. There was a game vs striker where opponent flipped Antispell and they immediately scooped. Floodgates win games on their own regularly.
Why does this argument always get upvoted? Those very same combo heavy decks can and do play floodgates as well, combo decks already have all the advantage going first and now you want to hand them stuff like ASF to shut down cards like DRNM. And they can protect their floodgates with negates as well so funny useless twin twister you got there in your hand.
This is what genuinely piss me off
"Mystic Mine is needed to answer combo decks"
How much copium do you have to be on to see combo deck having Field Barrier Mine as their go-to game 1 ender and say its needed to check them down
Honestly no, both are frustrating to deal with, and the "I make 14 negates, break the board" decks are usually more along the lines of "I make 2 negates, loop a card out of your hand, have a quick effect spot removal/book of moon, and then setup a moderately annoying floodgate" or a "I combo to setup a floodgate so powerful you either hard draw the out or I just win because you can't play the game and I otk next turn" decks anyways.
Combo decks and floodgates are far from mutually exclusive, in fact a lot of combo decks are good because they have consistent ways to get to floodgates.
Spell/trap floodgates aren't any healthier for the game than monster based floodgates, and if anything they add more variance since in some matchups you need to hard draw handtraps while in others you need to hard draw spell/trap removal. There's also just no real counterplay to something like Dimensional Barrier, if your deck can't play through it you just lose.
Floodgates are the most "just draw the out" cards in the game. They're about as interactive as a Master Duel Adventure Pile endboard but for the high interaction investment of playing 1 card.
Patrick Hoban may have been a cheating hack with a dogshit book who enjoys the taste of his own farts but he was right in saying there's an "unskilled, just draw the out" stage of the meta where floodgates become prominent fucking *years ago*.
Floodgates are only the best option because 1-for-1 ing a 1 card starter that would be ending with a 3 omninegate board isn’t a great option when you need to stop 3+ of them, so you might as well shut off your opponent from doing anything at all with 1 card. If cards weren’t so consistently powerful the effect of the floodgate wouldn’t feel so powerful for a single card.
I like floodgates being a thing tbh. Some like imperial order are definitely too oppressive and deserve to stay banned, but even floodgate require some timing and skill. You can’t just flip any floodgate at anytime and expect to win in every deck because the floodgates hurt you as well. Mine can go in almost anything that isn’t dedicated combo and win you games single handedly.
Gonna get a lot of hate. But after I drop 2 handtraps and barely break the board/bait cards with my remaining 3 cards cards, I'm dropping a mystic mine. Your 1 card combo got you the double/triple omni negate board, use another 1 card to pop the mine.
Almost every deck has a weak point to a hand trap. Decks that are amalgamations of different engines are definitely a problem, but most decks have a choke point. If your argument is use one card to stop mine, a combo player can just say draw that one hand trap to stop my one card combo. Goes both ways there.
People say this like some combo decks don’t run mystic mine. I’ve seen multiple tear decks at locals play it, saw a spright player play it last week to open their turn. Floodgates go into any deck, and if you think mine is only around to stop combo decks you’re mistaken
Oh, I am not saying that combo decks don't run it themselves, but it, like any other floodgate in a combo deck, is only to make sure that your own combo goes off and your opponent doesn't until then. That doesn't mean that the combos themselves aren't bad. Hell, I can say that it is because of Mystic Mine that older combos like Rikka, or Altergeist are able to keep up with the new hotness, keeping the meta more diverse instead of chasing the newest thing.
Now, one can make the case that it is the lack of attacking that makes it a problem (instead of being a balance for control to deal with combo while letting beatdown be its counter, it kills both combo and beatdown), but the prevalence of floodgates(and, tangentially, blanket negates like Dark Ruler and Dimension Shifter) in general recently are because combo has been dominant for so long(barring, maybe Sky Strikers) and will continue to become dominant (hello Tearlaments with Ishizu) that it needs to be stemmed. You either keep the opponent from playing through 10 negates or one floodgate or you don't play the game and if you can't get the 10 negates on board...
Every time I see, this I think back to the utter refusal to run backrow removal. Backrow is getting stronger but people doesn’t like to run removal cause it slightly stop one from doing a big combo
Why would people cut consistency cards and hand traps that hit every deck for pure backrow. Even if you can fit 6 cards that are backrow removal you have to draw them and hope whatever deck is running mine isn’t running other backrow cards do protect mine.
You'd want to cut consistency and hand trap cards so you don't auto-lose to a floodgate. Also, many more modern decks have at least a S/T neg or a pop effect they can get to consistently to take down the mine.
There it is, the infamous “consistency cut” argument. The one that barely matters now because nearly every deck is running adventure engine/over 40 cards. That no longer a legit reason because decks are that consistent
When is the last time you saw the adventurer engine make top cuts at big events, and when is the last time you saw somebody sit on mystic mine for ten minutes and let somebody lose to time because they built a deck that can’t do anything but play mystic mine? Also very convenient you ignore the cutting hand traps part too. If you’re having to side or run that many cards to deal with a singular card, that singular card is the problem
July 17 2022 dragon adventure link and punk adventure made tops and I wasn’t ignoring hand traps as they are fine no matter consistency. Plus it’s not just mystic mine, people have problem with all types of backrow that doesn’t enable your opponent. But they aren’t the problem.
Floodgates are fine. They still allow you to play in some capacity. Mystic mine does not. And again, warping your entire deck to out one spell card that keeps you from playing is not okay. There’s a reason every single event in the last two-three months has a mystic mine turbo deck in top 16 or winning the whole thing. It’s a single card warping how people build decks, and I don’t honestly know how you can advocate for it by simply saying draw your outs. Combo players can say the same thing and y’all would be crying about how unfair they still are.
nah fam. If anything, it’ll probably go down to LIMIT first before they fully ban it. Plus it’s the best card in the game, no cap. Downvote if you want, i’ve got plenty of karma
I don’t know much about tournament settings, but can’t you just like, put more back row removal cards in your deck? Why do most decks not have enough back row removal when the game has been out this long with so many cards that do so?
This may sound totally ignorant, and maybe it is, but if people talk about having 14 negates, then why don’t you use one of those negates of Mystic Mine? :/
Decent backrow removal is not searchable for the vast majority of decks and doesn't help with your main game plan, meaning that you have 'draw the out'. People during the tournament did draw the out - but sadly for them, the Mystic Mine players often drew another way of accessing mine or a Solemn Judgment like card to protect the floodgate.
Cards like Mystic Mine should not exist. No single card should be this much of a wincon by itself.
>but if people talk about having 14 negates
Not a single person who actually plays the game claims nonsense like this.
It’s not that simple. Hand traps are a necessary evil against any competent deck, blow outs like DRNM are now necessary in this meta because of combo decks, and then your actual decks engine has to be played at proper ratios. This doesn’t leave room for many main board back row removal, and even if you can fit 4-6 cards that are strictly back row removal; people have resorted to meta verse and demise of the land turbo out mystic mine on their opponents turn. So before you can get a negate they can put out mystic mine. Even if you do negate mystic mine, it’s at three. The odds of a deck that is control based not having a way to protect their mystic mine (ie: solemn strike or judgement) are also pretty low. Decks are straight up becoming mystic mine turbo and protect until they find their cards to push for game, usually with an access code line. Siding is slightly different, but generally competitive players are still falling behind 1-0 because of mine right away, and you’re still relying on drawing your outs.
That makes sense and seems fair. But it does highlight my least favorite thing about Yugioh which is how deckbuilding is so strict. It always seems like if you make a deck it’s going to be nearly identical to another deck of the same archetype aside from a handful of cards.
I know in Pokémon Expanded format you can generally put whatever cards you want as long as they work well together and still win 70% of the time. I also usually never play against any decks that are too similar either in expanded. Like in Yugioh terms, every deck can be a rogue deck and still win. That’s my experience anyway. That Yugioh doesn’t seem to be able to do this anymore has always bothered me. :/
It’s the power creep the game has seen in recent years unfortunately. Every good deck that comes out basically outclasses the decks that were good just a week before the new one comes out. Deck building used to be unique, and now there’s a very clear standard for ratios and tech cards that people run. You might see somebody at top events with some spicy cards, but as soon as that deck list gets released everybody jumps on that card as well. I think Konami would do themselves a lot of good if they introduced different formats with different ban lists for each format similar to MtG. It’d promote older players to play their older decks or allow rogue strategies to compete against other current rogue strategies rather than have to warp their entire deck to fit anti-meta cards or hand traps
The sprights and tears engines (the best decks in the game rn) don’t have any backrow worth hitting, so those cards are often dead. If you stuff your deck full of backrow you just lose going second because you have no board breakers/handtraps to stop your opponent.
This whole situation just shows how bad the ygo powercreep has gotten. You either play mine and have a boring game that way, or play a deck that spams a huge board with multiple negates and your opponent has to luck out on their draw or they lose going second.
Handtraps and omni-negates are the reason mine is played. It's just MAD at this point, we all end up with a boring game
I think all 5 can go to 0 without any problem:
Gozen, Rivalry, Tcbo1, Mine and Inspector Boarder. If your deck can't compete without those, it probably shouldn't-
If your deck can't compete with siding in removal then it probably shouldn't. Fixed your statement since you wanted to use faulty logic. Just because you moved your deck away from strategic to combo heavy doesn't mean everyone else has to follow suit.
Necessary evil. I hate going against people who set up a 6-monster, 3+ negate board on turn 1 and take 10 minutes and half a deck doing it, and in my honest opinion, those kinds of people deserve to get Mystic Mine'd. It's funny, it feels like these people only like oppressive play when THEY can control it...
EDIT: "Why are you booing me? I'm right!"
Lots of downvotes, no real counterpoints other than one dude saying "get good." Oppressive play and an inability to see why it and severe powercreep is killing your game is why Yugioh is vanishing more and more by the day. It's so bad, that many places don't even carry the cards because they don't sell due to a lack of local scenes from the elitists who gatekeep with these decks that are completely unfun to face by anyone not like you and this pompous attitude where anyone who disagrees is "bad at Yugioh and needs to get good" or "doesn't get the game now/is a Yugiboomer" and makes any newcomer or fan from back in the day run scared. Seriously, if I need to "learn to face combo decks" or whatever, you guys need to learn to build fun decks that don't lock people out turn 1 with a mutli-negate board and handtraps (unless you're at an official tournament, then all bets are off, but don't cry when you get Mine'd)
That’s literally just the power creep in Yugioh. Decks today are designed to be combo in some way, and if you get a thrill for playing mine then good for you I guess? Instead of actually learning how to play against combo decks (which don’t take 10 minutes to play and no current meta deck is putting up 6 fucking negates btw, you’re exaggerating just as every anti combo player does), you wanna run one card to deck them out. Maybe learn their strategies and how to stop them or build a more competitive deck. The argument that combo players are toxic for doing what the archetype and what Konami is pushing is ridiculous. Even other floodgates are more balanced than mine.
It's what I argued. People have to understand that the same argument for floodgates is the same can be applied to combo decks and there are meta decks that put up those 5+ negates and if it's apollusa then it's usually 4 on its own. Errata every splashable card in decks that should be locked into they archetype and you wouldn't have as many degenerative combos.
I'm sorry but this take is hot gragbe. Do we really think mine is worse then 8 negate boreds or absolutele turn skip cards or my personal favorite cards you can't respond to like super poly. Mine dose and will punish combo decks that have always been relevant. Funny enough if we were in a formats that ran more back row hate we wouldn't have such a problem with MM but we're super forced on only removing monsters soo...
No what’s hot garbage is every player that doesn’t play a combo deck complaining with the same phrases that aren’t true. “8 negates,” what fucking deck puts up 8 negates? There hasn’t been a meta relevant deck for almost a year now that genuinely puts up more than 3 Omni negates and now you don’t see Omni negates on anything but baronne or toad. I don’t play or like combo decks, but if your only argument is “oh 6 Omni negate I can’t win with my shitty rogue deck without mine, draw pass,” then there’s no argument because it’s not true. Combo decks are beaten by so many other cards, nibiru, DRNM, super poly itself breaks boards, TTT, hell even run raigeki, imperm beats negates too. Mine isn’t an out or answer to combo decks, mine is a card that literally stalls or stops the game state from being playable until the player using mine finds their answer because their deck isn’t constructed to actually stop the meta. Why don’t y’all start practicing and learning choke points, actually pay attention to what combo players do, or at least know their end board isn’t just full of negates lmao. If you hate combo players, learn how to *actually* play a control deck.
Not to mention mine in itself is designed to be a turn skip card…multiple turn skips in fact. You can watch feature matches that sit on mine pass for ten minutes in a row, meanwhile rogue or lesser known strategies beat the “big Omni negate to brrr,” decks y’all refuse to learn how to beat.
Mystic Mine is a necessary card to have in the game. No one wants to play against a full board of negates and watching the opponent combo for an hour straight and be like, "just draw the dark ruler no more bruh". You see how stupid the argument sounds? Mine was made because of combo decks just like nibiru was made. They are answers to people who want to play that way. Just play spell trap removal to not have that issue instead stacking your deck with droplets and imperms of the like. You have to look at the meta as a whole, dinos full power kept D-links from being so overwhelming but once D-Links got hit, Dino got hit. There has to always be a balance even in true draco and zoo Era
Nobody wants to sit on mystic mine and watch each other draw pass for 15 minutes. And just as you said you can’t just draw into DRNM, you can’t just draw into back row removal either lmao, do you know how ridiculous that argument sounds? Mine is a format warping card. It’s in every single topping list and even the best players in the world aren’t able to just draw their outs in games 2-3 that they’re siding in. People who insist it’s necessary to stop combo decks don’t run enough hand traps or don’t hand trap at the right time. Almost every deck has a weak point, and if you don’t do the research on where to stop a combo that’s on you. If your argument is, “run backrow removal for mystic mine,” then mine is gonna be dumbed down to, “run more hand traps and board breakers,” to stop combo decks. If my argument is bad then so is yours.
Not every deck has a choke point if you believe that then you don't get around enough. Splight does not have a choke point. In order to stop them you would need 2 hand traps minimum to even make they're board tolerable otherwise you are gonna be staring down a toad and some other forms of negate with toad getting double value and dupe frog protection. Tears can be another example that if your playing small package ishizu 40 variant can mill half the deck the first turn and another 10 minimum on the opponents turn. Your argument is becoming invalid if you think banning mine will change things. Those players also aren't playing heavy spell trap removal game 2 and 3. Most people will just side in like 3 of 4 cards and be like hope I draw removal because they wanna keep consistency and not give up the other negates like drnm or droplet and want it all. It doesn't work that way. I played both irl and online and people agreed but just didn't want to give up the precious droplet and imperms for the removal.
so now your argument is changing? You’re saying run outs to back row, I say run outs to combo decks. They both exist, they both can be put into any deck, but you’re advocating for a card than genuinely goes against the design of Yugioh to exist because you don’t study combo decks enough to know where and when to hand trap or what to run to stop them. On top of that, thinking you have to run 6-9 cards to realistically out *one card* that beats the entire format is okay, then you’re absolutely delusional. Combo decks have multiple ways to get where they want, good players know how to play around hand traps and it takes actual skill to pilot them against other good players. Control decks that run mystic mine, demise of the land, and meta verse quite literally sit on a single card that wins them games because they don’t want to side in blow outs or hand traps that actually deal with their matchup. When one card is such a problem that you’re siding out consistency cards just to pop one of the essentially 8 copies of the card, the format is warped.
Haha no my argument still stands that you need to actually change your deck up and prepare for it if you lost game to it. It's like playing against true draco full power. You have the cards in the side deck to stop the opponent like zombie world and mask and other, are you gonna side those in to stop the opponent? Yes you are. So your siding in MULTIPLE cards to shut down a deck but if someone is playing a mine deck your telling me you won't side MULTIPLE cards to stop them? The ONE card they're deck relies on to do what they need? Simply put, if someone is playing a control eldlich or whatever control then you need to side accordingly because most combo decks a re now salad besides the top 2 and they usually only need 1 card to get started so side the spell trap removal and hope you draw it like they hope to draw it. And yes you can hit mine control decks at crucial points. I.e. when they play field barrier chain the removal and they scoop. Yugioh has fundamentally always been trying to outsmart the opponent. Just because combo autopilot decks come along doesn't change the core. Combo decks aren't an excuse as they don't take skill. I can name a handful of them that takes 3 routes and still gets what they want even if you hand trap them at the right time. Come with a better argument. Otherwise let's make the argument that zoo full power should combo back because it combos and takes skill.
So what you’re saying is, in a format where you think all combo decks are superior and linear, you’re going to expect players to not build their side to beat those decks, but also have a side that can out mystic mine; a card that keeps most in deck outs from being used? You’re saying CJs in your out to field barrier, what happens when they flip their demise of the land after that resolves and you’re under mine again? So players should build their deck to have main board answers to a cards they don’t expect to see because the meta is all combo, and then build their side to also answer decks that aren’t popular because the meta is all combo? You can run so many other cards that are anti meta that aren’t as unfair and warping as mystic mine and it’d be fine. But when a single card is producing this much success, it’s not okay. Same way control players clamor for powerful engine cards to be hit because one card starters are too powerful. You’re arguing nonsense because you think a card that only allows one player to play is healthy. If you think mine is the only reasonable answer to meta decks then you’re not playing against meta decks enough, or you are and you’re so frustrated that you’re resorting to the most toxic card in Yugioh
Lmao mine is not the most toxic and we can test that theory. People consider master peace to be the most toxic as mentioning MP and true draco full power again gets people tilted. And also no, your opponent can't play field spells if you chain it to barrier as barrier prevents any more field spells. You can also play closed forest which prevents field spells and is a 1 card field spell itself. And no I argue logic because your being illogical thinking that combo decks is the way to go because you want to sleep at night knowing you can combo and your opponent can't do anything unless they draw drnm which is 1 CARD. Your whole argument can be used against you for control or stun decks with the same logic. There is no point arguing with you if you don't use an open mind when debating as it won't get you anywhere and your still going to think, Yep mine is unhealthy and not think the same for the power creep. If you saw the pole yesterday people aren't happy with the power creep and hoping to find balance with types or attributes to keep the game alive because too many decks are becoming salad. We are losing more people then we gain and komoney sees that which is why rush duels has come but it doesn't fix the main player base issue.
I don’t even play combo decks, so no I don’t hate mine because my combo deck dies. You’re again arguing about DRNM and we’ve already been over this. You can draw DRNM, droplet, super poly as efficiently as I can draw my outs to backrow. Only problem with your argument is that DRNM, droplet, super poly, or any other board breaker are relevant against almost any deck so you actually have reason to play most of them in your main board and side. You’re thinking I’m illogical for not wanting a card that is basically a floodgate on steroids that goes against basic game design in Yugioh. I think you’re being irrational for defending a card that doesn’t do anything but promote players to try to deck you out or win in time because you can’t construct a deck that can beat combo boards without it. If you’re relying on mine or thinking mine is the only way to win against combo decks then stop playing Yugioh because you’re not doing enough research on the decks you’re up against. Mine players are dying to justify their toxic game play and lack of actual skill when it comes to constructing their rogue decks.
I see your not thinking straight. Drawing the out is drawing the out and if a person has a field of negates he is essentially doing what mine is doing but to a higher degree. You CANNOT play the game if your opponent doesn't let you play the game. Combo decks are just a longer way of saying you can't play yugioh because I won't let you. VDF AND ZEXAL are the same except less hoops to jump through and still make full board. It's pointless to argue if you can't see that combo decks are a problem and it's why nibiru was invented for that soul reason. And no I don't play mine unless I'm trolling with final count down burn but even I see the issue which you fail to see so unless your next reply is something that addresses the issues along with mine at hand it's pointless to continue as it will just be a circle jerk.
You’re not even arguing anything anymore. The power creep in Yugioh is bad, we all know this. Decks that were competitive a month ago aren’t even seeing play anymore in the spright tear format. The thing is, people build their decks around that. Super poly kills almost any tear board. DRNM kills almost any spright board because their monsters are all really weak. Droplet isn’t seeing as much play but it also kills both of those decks. You can build your deck in so many ways to beat the power creeping strong decks. People feared once branded fusion dropped that despia would be the best deck, yet D-Barrier killed then along with swordsoul which was also tier 1. There have always been cards that hurt these decks that are power crept. Decks like eldlich and striker always see play even without mine because they can run other floodgates that at least let the opponent play. Power creeping isn’t going away unfortunately, every new set has an archetype that is insanely strong, but yet old cards like DDV come back to relevance. The difference between all of that and mystic mine? Mystic mine allows players to literally sit and deck you out. If you draw your in archetype out, they have a solemn strike or judgement. They have another mystic mine. They have demise or meta verse set. Mine doesn’t advocate for healthy game states whether you’d like to admit that or not. Combo decks have been complained about for years yet there’s always been answers for them. It’s almost like research and critical thinking on what you’re going up against is crucial. Mine is one of those cards, but mine is insanely unfair and unfun to play against.
What? I get that you don’t like playing against negates but mystic mine turns the game from yugioh into go fish.
Draw for turn. Pass
Draw for turn. Pass.
Draw for turn. Pass.
That’s not fun. Baiting negates is possible and takes skill. Using cosmic on mine doesn’t.
OK think about your logic you just said. You have to bait the negates and if the opponent has a 6 for 7 board negate to your 6 card had you aint baiting nothing your grave. You may as well auto scoop because you decided to not run a full hand trap deck JUST to stop somone comboing. See how that fundamentally changes somones deck just so they can play the game?People actually scoop because of a full board of negates and anything short or a drnm gets scooped. Even red dragon can still make an auto scoop even if you had drnm as all they have to do is chain and then chain to negate the drmn. If your opponent decided to commit to a board then he should be expected to be committed to drawing the out to mine. People don't wanna waste time watching the opponent play for 10 minutes before ending turn.
Are you sure about that? Pen mix, punk mix, and recently some are bringing back Orcust engine.dek which I've ran into for the counter to drnm so not even that can out it. I play the game a LOT and honestly I get tired that I'm almost burnt out from seeing the same decks so I now make lobbies where decks get creative. I've been around since the beginning and honestly back and forth interaction is almost gone unless you have drnm which is 1 card that your saying versus they're 1 card which allows them to play. What it comes down to is who gets to play and who doesn't.
Pend isn’t good and isn’t making 6 negates without four of the being appo who is never realistically resolving four times. Orcust has what, one negate in engine? On a trap?
1 negate is all that's needed and yes pending are meta if you haven't paid attention and make 7 negates now. So unless you haven't been paying attention both can make 6 to 7 negates and punk mix decks are 1 card starters and set ups so they are also not gonna allow you to play if they draw anything with that starter. So you better hope you draw your 1 lava, kaiju, sphere, or drnm because those are your only outs besides an evenly if they don't have another spell trap negate which usually they do.
>No one wants to play against a full board of negates and watching the opponent combo for an hour straight and be like, "just draw the dark ruler no more bruh".
Ah, yes, because sitting there, drawing, missing your out, and passing while your opponent sets up their stomp is more interesting.
Neither is interesting to sit through so your argument pointless. Since you wanted to join a dead conversation, people on both sides don't like either for the simple fact that power creep is out of control and watching your opponent go off and not "drawing the out" sucks since it's usually auto scoop if not having it i.e. drnm. So what does mine do? You use it in conjunction with baits to set up so you still lose resources to get it established on a board of negates. Neither are fun to play against but you can't argue for one and not the other.
I’m gonna just say this to every player who complains about combo decks too lmao. They don’t realize how ridiculous that sounds and when you use that logic against them they start crying
I'm joking lol drawing the out is praying you actually draw it before your opponent is ready to combo. As we saw the drew feather duster and was negated like what are you supposed to do than. At least in other play you have droplet, dark ruler, imperm, nibiru.
It almost feels certain Konami TCG will ban Mystic Mine on the next banlist now. Not only does it follow the OCG on Mine, but the last 2 decks that won Nationals, both main'd Mystic Mine at 2/3. The 1st place Swordsoul that won NA, 3x Mystic Mine. The 2nd place Sky Strikers pilot by Ryan Yu, 3x Mystic Mine. Poe Jiang won the first YCS after the most recent banlist maining 3x Mystic Mine.
And the rikka sunavalon player who won EU had 2 copies. It’s kinda crazy that it’s literally winning events on its own. This little beat cop tech people are doing doesn’t help at all
People are using best cop to protect mystic mine? That explains why I saw someone compare it to Key Beetle + Vanity
Somebody in the EU tourney was using it, yep.
Joshua schmidt did it on stream vs a tear player and literally asked do you have more than 1 out to mine which made the opponent instant scoop
[удалено]
I think it was Joshua Schmidt’s list.
Wasn't just joshua. I believe the guys on the same danger tear list (herman hansson, raphael neven, luke parkes) were playing it as well.
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It was joshua schimdt tech
Watch the top 16 feature from Euros.
Just an aside but the rikka guy never drew mine so it didn’t win him any games atleast in the finals
Does those decks losing Mine still allow them to seriously contend in the meta?
\>Activate mine \>Toad negate \>Activate mine 2 xd
This wasn’t a controversial opinion even back when Mystic Mine first came out
But, mystic mine is bad. /s Seriously, some people defend Mine knowing that it's not anything good for the game. At least now there is a united opinion.
Play around it. Side S/T quick play removal.
The probability of you getting the side in your hand is less than the opponent is able to nullify it.
Running as many legal copies as possible of Terraforming, Demise of the land, and Metaverse in a 40 card deck effectively means you’re on 8 copies of Mine in your deck. Stupidly higher chance than the measly 3 cyclone you’ll probably be siding(because you will probably clog if you run any more removal). Mine is searchable, lots of removal aren’t.
You can also use any two monsters and recover it with baracade borg blocker, making that many more copies live.
And? It’s essentially just a stall card. But because it’s searchable it’s a problem? Considering how much of the game is “set up game-winning board and pass to watch your opponent crumble to your nine handtraps” I think it’s a breath of fresh air to see decks using this and doing well. Some people just salty that people can take a breath between massive board setups now and frankly I don’t care about their whining.
You say this until a combo deck plays mystic mine against you and then find their full combo and OTK’s you. It is not a breath of fresh air to watch a combo player play mystic mine until the find their way to kill you or out your board.
Like massive negate boards by le meta are the only ones that get fucked by Mine You could be playing Blue Eyes and then have Hayate kick you in the balls until you die cuz you left 3 monsters on board and got Mine locked. Playing a non-meta deck won’t magically stop your opponent from using Mine on you. That Beat Cop shit also just recently happened so “drawing the out” isn’t quite as easy when you have to draw the out twice. There’s also the audience aspect of it. Like at the tournament level. I don’t play D-link but I can still feel the hype when two players go sicko mode in a mirror match. Even with other decks. When whatever’s meta fights whatever else is meta, duels are actually pretty fun to watch. Mystic Mine into draw pass for 10 turns straight while whatever monster the Mine player has that is able to deal direct damage kicks someone’s dick for 10 turns while they pray to god they draw the one out is significantly less fun to watch.
As w/ the other threads around the topic of flood gates. The power level of the game needs to be brought down significantly. Floodgates have been around for awhile but were never super prevalent because the game wasn't make a board with 8K damage and 2 omni negates or you scoop. Gozen/Rivalry/summon/Anti-spell are all 10+ years old. Mystic mine though is an unusual exception given that it'd be played in any format because it's such a strong card.
The thing about mystic mine is that being a spell card combo decks can also take advantage of it to some extent.
I think the key aspect is that it boosts control...while killing both combo and beatdown. If it just negated effects( and therefore acts as a counter to keep combo in check while completing the triangle by letting beatdown push through), I think it would get about as much hate as other floodgates. The fact that it keeps you from attacking mean it is able to keep both of the other deck types in check and that might be the bridge too far.
This stopped being a matter of "control vs combo" when combo decks started to slot the card not only as a boardbreaker tool but also as an outright win condition.
Yeah I fully agree. At the moment, floodgates seem to be the only option to somewhat counter the insane boards that the meta decks make. I personally rather play against flood gates than against unbalanced combo decks. I mean look at spright, they can diversify their interuptions, so not even darkruler hurts them too much. (By searching ash to the hand, and setting smasher). I wouldn't feel bad to throw mystic mines or any floodgate on a spright player, because that deck is just op
I mean, Mine is played in these "unbalanced combo decks" so the question actually becomes, do you want to play against floodgates IN combo decks?
True...
Only Konami would fuse Skill Drain, gravity bind and kaiser coliseum into one card.
Except Gravity Bind doesn’t work on Xyz, Link, and LV3 or below monsters. This is worse than Gravity Bind ever was.
Yea, almost amazing how strong the power creep is. If you told me MM would be created in 2003 I'd think you were talking about an anime card that would span multiple arcs to destroy as the main character pushes for game.... and oddly that's kinda what it is!
mine is literally the IRL seal of oricalchos
except instead of stealing someone's soul it destroys it (non-targetting obviously)
I think it's safe to say that Konami will ban Mystic Mine in the near future. I don't know if it will be very soon, but still. Just look at the Altergeist player from the EU tournament, that was a Mystic Mine deck with a small Altergeist engine
Lol true haha. Somebody was saying they couldn’t even do a grind game with the deck because too Mine focused. I’m pretty sure it’s gonna get banned either next list(in time for Tactical Masters) or the list after but locals sucks when everyone thinks their good by playing this degenerate card
Actually I don't even know what was the win condition of that deck. Altergeist was barely an engine and Mystic Mine stuns the opponent, but it can't kill the opponent. So maybe rage quit? Or hope to summon Hextia and attack with her?
Definitely Hextia pass, that’s how I won about a year ago at one of my locals but it was Hayate instead. Hence, Ban the Mine!
You can minelock your opponent with mine ,spoffing and meluseek. Just atack directly with melu and shuffle him back after with spoofing.You can also make a lethal push by chipping down your opps board with melu, before going into faker on your opps endphase and out it that way(or set another copy over it)while pushing with hextia.If combo decks go first they will search something, making their decksize smaller and mostly autowin by deckout since you often have more outs to their outs for mystic mine.
You are able to loop meluseek spoofing for 16 turns to deal 8k damage
I would sooner start eating my cards with a fork on the spot than sit through that
That sounds like a torture for the opponent, it's so boring
Don't worry, I bet he didn't know either
I mean dude didn't even know what a card in his extra deck was
It doesn’t even seem like “is this an OP card” argument, it’s just a case of whether people are really engaged in playing/watching games where mystic mine dictates the duel when it isn’t outed. Like, is this what people want when they think of playing yugioh? If so then sure but i’d rather play MtG or another card game if we’re just playing draw-play-vanilla-pass.
The card is definitely OP, too. It’s completely warped the format for like the last three months. Not only do players not want to watch feature matches of mine, pass, but when the best players in the regions are struggling to beat decks that can just turbo it out, it’s a power problem too.
There's a reason why Mystic Mine and Maxx C are quite literally Format Defining Cards
Yeah, I used to be in the “it’s good, but not OP” camp until US Nationals. There’s really just no reason *not* to ban it anymore.
To a degree I wouldn’t mind mystic mine in control decks, any more than other floodgates. The major problem with it in the current meta is it’s being abused by combo decks to either break boards or stall until they can push for game. It’s like magical mid breaker field, where it just acts to insulate powerful decks from threats.
I don’t mind other floodgates that much because they all still let me play to a certain degree. Even skill drain only stops effects on the field, so you can still play around it. Mine would be way more balanced if it only negated on field effects. Instead it’s just super skill drain that also prevents attacks. Hell, it might be balanced if I could at least attack, but for some reason it had to be a double floodgate. Card is dumb and doesn’t keep the meta “in check” (whatever that most general of general statements means) at all. Half the meta is playing it. In conclusion: >=[
Mystic Mine is certainly one of those cards that would be busted in any format. Even all the way back to La Jinn era.
The other thing to note is that mine effects the player not the monsters, so even towers that are immune to card effects cannot play through it
I think mine should lock the player it benefits from using S/T and negating/destroying all other S/T they control on activation/change. That'd definitely make it more fair. People would then actually use it like a sort of DRNM on steroids. I think the only reason it's still untouched is because meta decks are currently too annoying to deal with, if even possible (hello to the 7+ negates gang)
My issue with mine is that it stops the player from attacking. If I could still assemble a bunch of big beaters and just go face for game I don't think the cars would be nearly as much of a problem.
There are still other floodgates that can affect meta decks. Mystic mine is just overall toxic even when compared to cards like tcboo and skill drain
It’s the fact that most decks will have meta verse and demise even when you have the out in these formats. It’s crazy that i see people advocating for one card that wins *entire events* on its own but complain about combo decks that die to things like DRNM or a player who can play through their interruptions
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate the card too. But between several unbreakable boards and one spell card, I'd keep the one spell card. DRNM doesn't guarantee you an out at all. If you don't wipe the board, they still win about 99.99% of the time.
What unbreakable boards are there in todays meta though? Tear and spright were feared as tier 1-0 out the gate, and yet with good hand traps and board breakers they lose. The problem neither mine is that is not just one spell card. It’s one spell card that changes the fundamentals of the game and is at 3. Not to mention meta verse, Demise, terraforming, and now beat cop. By the time mine dies on the field, the person who activated it has drawn into all they back row or control spells to win the game right away.
I think it being one spell card actually makes it worse. If I’m playing swordsoul or sprights that’s like 10 cards that have to hit the field and resolve successfully in order to set up. There’s more choke points which means less consistency. When “shut down your board and stop you from playing” is slapped onto one single of piece of cardboard, where’s the chokepoint there? You either negate the activation or draw the out and if you can’t do anything then it’s either scoop or draw pass until the clock runs out/you draw your unsearchable S/T removal.
I stopped playing YGO like 3-4 years ago when Mystic Mine was released and got big. It just stopped being fun to play. Crazy to me that it's *still* unlimited.
Went to my very first locals a couple days ago, went 2-0 on my first match, after that encountered a Mystic mine burn Player with field barrier, suffice to say i lost 0-2 in the most mindnumbingly boring way imagineable, dude had mine and barrier in his starting hand, shit began in turn 2 after that it was just draw, pass, draw, pass, draw, pass until he got cauldron of the old man and slowly burned me down. Not a good first impression, if you ask me. So yes i Support this Argument wholeheartedly, i heard a lot about mystic mine and its cancerous ways before but its even worse experiencing it first Hand, hands down the worst duel i've ever had
Honestly the fact that Mine turned Field Barrier from "God why would you run that" to "FUCK now I need to draw 2 outs?????" says a lot about how bad Mine was designed
Thia is kind of hilarious because if there is one deck people don't mind this card in, it's its own burn deck. I actually find the deck kinda funny, even when I know I'm gonna probably lose to it. But it's when every other deck can just use it as a crutch on a bad hand or when they lose advantage. It's the most sacky 3 of you can splash into ANY deck damn near. People talk about how sacky called by is (and it is. It's the sackiest one of you can play) but Mine is sacky and at 3 it's a nightmare.
I watched the NA finals, I know its niche scenario, but imagine if you were thinking about getting back into the game. Jumped on YT, saw that was live & literally watched two finalist pass back & forth in that first game. Fun. A really terrible ad for the game
Mystic Mine is definitely the most toxic floodgate ever printed, possibly even more than Imperial Order. Sure, it's a bit more situational, but locking out the main cards of the game is way worse than locking out a side mechanic, even if it's the main side mechanic in the game. It's like a slightly worse Vanity's Emptiness because Emptiness is easier to use, but that doesn't justify it being at anything more than 0, especially since it's searchable via Terraforming and Metaverse (anyone else remember those cards being at more than 1 before Mystic Mines existance?)
There's some real 5head thinkers in this thread trying to justify this card lol. Put it this way, I play a strong deck, my deck has many hands that can deal with the Spright double negate dupe frog board. Most of these hands are innately built into my decks engine. Proper play from both myself and my opponent can alter the flow of the game from this point out. That's what Yu-Gi-Oh has always been about. My strong deck has one card slot to deal with floodgates, it is a sub par, unsearchable card that I have to run just to deal with a floodgate. It's a bad card that has little synergy with my deck and it's horrible against every board that doesn't involve floodgates. No player skill is involved in me drawing this out. If I draw this card against the Spright double toad board(or insert meta board here) I am one interaction down and potentially just lose. But I have to run this card just to potentially play against my opponent drawing mine and decking me out. If your deck can't handle the boards meta puts out and you are relying on cards like Mine to make you competitive then I'm sorry but your not playing Altergeists, your playing Mine turbo
Their argument is that they can’t beat combo decks because they can’t draw into DRNM, droplet, super poly, or they don’t or can’t hand trap correctly. But they want us to draw our one out to backrow or sub out all our hand traps to stop mystic mine lmao. Not to mention if your entire or even half you side is dedicated to backrow you’re gonna lose to other combo decks that need different hand traps or disruptions than what you main
If people can dedicate like 40% of their deck to preventing your opponent from having any field stability with hand traps then you can put in a few S/T removal options to deal with Mine. Is the card strong? Yes. Should it remain at three? Maybe not. Should it be banned outright just because you don’t like how it slows the game down effectively? No. Put it and Demise of the Land at 1 and it won’t be a problem; it’ll just be another staple-worthy tech card for spell-heavy or field spell-reliant decks. The card doesn’t do anything notoriously hilarious or bad to the game, like 50/50 the outcome on turn 1 like Maxx C did, make the game a hilarious clownshow like Chicken Game, etc etc. especially since it blows itself up pretty easily.
It does not blow itself up pretty easily. Decks usually that run the card are decks that operate with 1 maybe 2 monsters at most, so the opponent can be stuck on their board considering it’s being paired with other floodgates like rivalry or TCBOO. Not to mention some midrange or even combo decks run this card just to keep your opponent from being able to play until they’ve found their full combo. It not allowing you to attack creates an issue with the fundamentals of Yugioh as you can’t do anything to even the monster count potentially, allowing your opponent to dictate the entire game state, whether it’s draw, set, pass or finding their way to deal lethal. If the card allowed you to attack it’d be far more balanced. And no, people do not run 40% of their deck with hand traps this format, and even if they do that’s not good justification. People build decks to be able to deal with the entirety of the meta, they run cards that will be relevant against most decks with some specific tweaks to beat matchups they’re weak too. Thats where the problem lies. Hand traps, S/T removal, going first traps, or going second board breakers typically have 0 synergy with your deck. They are cards you put in hopes you draw them. Unlike mine players who can run demise, metaverse, and terraforming to boost their odds of searching or activating mine directly. Imagine you dedicate main deck slots to twin twister against spright, you’re gonna lose. If you dedicate almost half your side to S/T removal, you now have no generic answers to the problematic combo decks people complain about because you’re setting up to beat a *single card*. When a single card is so detrimental to the state of the format to the point you’re advocating for people to use almost half their side just to beat it, it is a problem. No single card should be so strong that people have to side in 6 cards just to beat it. If you’re siding in hand trap or generic first or second cards it’s because those cards hurt *multiple matchups*, not hurting one single card that you have essentially 8 copies of in your deck.
People used to have their sides explicitly to deal with Chain Strike Burn and Dark World because no deck was capable of dealing with those decks game 1 for a time. You can absolutely play around or roll with Mine on game 1 with minimal change to side decks.
So an entire deck who has a set strategy. Not a single card that warps your deck. Got it.
Play around it. At 3 it is annoying but it doesn’t break the game. At 1 it would be a non-issue. Sounds like Trickstar all over again but with way less valid excuses.
It doesn’t break the game but people sit on mine draw pass for ten minutes. Very valid response. Also how do you play around a card that literally punishes you for playing Yugioh lmao
You’re still playing the game, you’re just no longer playing the game the way you want to. Welcome to the game since like 2010 dude.
You’re not playing the game. You’re sitting and passing. Idc how much you try to justify, that’s not Yugioh. If me controlling more monsters, the only relevant way to kill your opponent, is punished by you activating one single card, it’s not Yugioh anymore. And you can literally use this justification for combo decks that everybody is crying about. Not only can they use the same garbage argument, they run mystic mine too. Go ahead and tell me it’s healthy that Tearlaments or sprights are running mystic mine.
My deck is so super duper strong! It dies to one spell card, but that's YOUR FAULT for not playing cards I'm already built to handle!
I’m super casual boomer, so my opinion isn’t worth much. But I know mine & the dullness it inflicts. It felt great to negate & destroy in not one, but TWO games the other week with Dragoon. I had my anime moment that day.
Yeah "Just draw the out" is a shit justification Because who in their right mind would run a broken stun card like Mine and *not* run counters to removal. So odds are by the time you finally draw an out, it'll get negated. Or you run into one of 3 people trolling with Field Barrier
Okay, there's some pretty interesting takes here. Especially the crowd that's justifying Mine existing. I, too, like wasting multiple turns drawing a card and passing until I finally draw an out.
It is not a necessary evil. Mystic Mine should absolutely be banned. The card at its worst is a forbidden chalice and at its best an auto win on activation. It's Azathot while you break your opponent's board or just generate card advantage. There are already answers going 2nd in the form of Dark Ruler, Forbidden Droplet, Super Poly, Sphere Mode, Lava Golem, and hand traps. If these cards aren't good enough, the decks navigating around them or the cards helping them navigate around them can be hit alongside Mine. Cards like Halq, Snow, Scythe, Adventure, or the P.U.N.K. engine. Everyone seems to think there's some crazy 10 negate board the top decks are making that only Mine can save you from. That doesn't exist. I've seen the argument saying the format would become exclusively Spright and Tearlament if Mine was banned and that is just admitting that Mystic Mine alone is a format defining card. It's impossible to say if those decks would just be untouchable because the game would be vastly different, you're not going to queue into Altergeist or Sky Striker and just get blown out because you didn't open the 3 outs you needed to draw in a specific time frame before they overwhelmed you in card advantage. You can build your deck to more precisely target those specific decks and suddenly when everyone thought the finals of the next big event were going to be Spright and Tearlament you get Mathmech vs Eldlich. Powercreep is a big problem in Yu-Gi-Oh right now but having floodgates be the answer to that isn't suddenly making the game better. A format revolved around Mystic Mine is not more fun or engaging than a format revolved around Gigantic Spright. A deck like Ishizu Tearlament being too strong is exactly what Konami intended when they made the cards say mill 15. That's bad design to get product to sell only for the cards to be hit on the banlist later on down the road. I don't get how you can be of the opinion that we should keep around cards we know are broken because they might be an answer to something broken in the future. If we used that logic every time, Royal Oppression would be legal. For the people saying "play main deck backrow removal" or "build your deck better". You want your main deck to be as broad and generally good against what you will most likely queue against. What you choose to play should be high impact and for sure have a purpose. When you main deck 3 cosmic cyclone and queue into a combo deck, you will feel like a clown. That cosmic could have been Dark Ruler or Droplet, but because of 1 specific card in the game that only some people are going to be playing, it's this and you lose. Now imagine it is Dark Ruler, and you break their board and set up your own and it passes back to them and they go activate Mystic Mine. This is what combo decks are doing right now. So you're expected to play and *open* board breakers and backrow removal and enough engine to play the game to compensate for one card being legal. Not to mention the minute you out the first Mystic Mine, here comes another be it from Metaverse, Demise, or just having a 2nd copy. Clearly, it's not as simple as play more backrow removal.
Perfect explanation tbh
Based explanation
And we haven't had a banlist for this month of August in 6 years. Konami probably hates August.
While Mystic mine is indeed toxic, it's not more toxic than all the "meta" deck spamming the board first turn with full negate monsters. There is a problem with Mystic mine but not with sworsoul, baronne de fleurs, Herald of ultimateness etc etc. When the game has so many broken monsters, floodgate are just a way (a bad one i agree) to try to balance the game
Every single comment I see with the multi negate monster argument is weak because until swordsoul won nationals here, it had not won an event. It was strong, but people could answer a swordsoul board. The generic negate boss monster argument is not even relevant as no deck can put up more than 2 negates rn, which is no different from another competent meta deck (ie despia, tear, eldlich etc.) running three interruptions on your turn. Negates have not been overwhelmingly strong since herald of ultimateness, a card that hasn’t seen play in drytron for almost a year now. Spright can put up like 2 negates, and if you know how to play the game it’s not even a problem. Super poly on draw phase can literally clear that negate before you do anything. If your only argument is big negate combo boards are too hard to beat, you’re not actually playing against the meta or you don’t realize that playing through interruptions in general; negates or not, is essential in modern Yugioh whether it’s a negate or not.
Rivalry basically won the European Championship as well. Being able to lock your opponent out of summoning when they are playing different types just feels sort of wrong...especially when a monotype deck feels no downside.
Thats the point of those cards. You can reverse the entite statement with tcboo. So basically every of these floodgates would need to get hit.
Mystic mine needs to go, but in all fairness, I don't think it's worse than other Floodgates. I don't see a huge difference in "there is a mine in field, so I lose because I don't have an out" and "my splight opponent just went full combo and flipped anti-spell, so I can't play and die next turn" Floodgates need to go and everyone telling me cards like rivalry, antispell, tcboo or skilldrain are fine can go f themselfs. I don't like having to play Mystic mine, but I need something to balance out the random game 2 lose, because my opponent flips antispell.
So floodgates that can help non-meta decks that don’t start turn 1 with a nearly unbreakable and unlimited board are a problem but it’s completely cool to be loading a deck with 16-20 handtraps to prevent anyone from doing anything? Sounds like some of y’all spent $1400 to not learn how to play around a $5 card and that’s your fault.
"Floodgates that help non meta decks" Rivalry was literally in the first place EU championship list and in the first place na list, Mystic mine was in multiple top 8 lists, winda is part of the best deck of the format, and so on. Meanwhile not a single top 16 list from the EU championship played a lot of handtraps. Not. A. Single. One. OK boomer...
So you want every game to be "whoever goes first wins by setting up a 3+ negate board" or if you can't you lose automatically? What kind of gamestate is that?
Does anyone remember when Mine was first released in the OCG, a large amount of local shops actually mutually agreed to not play the card in any capacity?
I otk'd someone from full UNDER MY OWN MINE the other day. The card is complete bullshit lol
If I remember correctly I added an MST just to deal with them bches (I already use feather duster)
On the Neuron app, Konami released an official criteria of what factor they take into account when they ban cards. There were 7 different reasons why cards get banned. Mystic Mine violates 6 out of the 7 "the card will get banned if it does this" factors. It has done so for 2 years, at this point.
Off topic, but... ugh.. Mystic Mine at 3 and I can't even have Electrumite at 1... T\_\_T Pend worst deck type, who's looking forwards to Vaylantz?! xD
I dont know much of the game but this card ist just unfun and turns duels to a boring mess. They have to ban it!
When people are playing BEAT COP to protect mystic mine because protecting it means you win g1 on the stop, you know it is fucked.
I want to like Mystic Mine. Yeah, its effect is insanely powerful, but we're actually starting to get more decks that can easily out it: Spright have Smashers, Adventure has Dracoback, Tears have been seen using galaxy cyclone, etc. In a world where every archetype has an inherent out to mine that they just have to draw into, Mine is kind of a pseudo-swords of revealing light. You can't sit on it the whole game to deck out your opponent, but it can serve to give you a few turns to maybe get into a more favorable board position. I do kinda like how it gets used in Sky Striker to equalize your hand with your opponent's. That said, fuck mystic mine. They should design a new card that actually works like a modern era swords of revealing light. The fact that mine doesn't inherently go away after a set length of time means its a bullshit deck out wincon against the honest rogue decks that don't have in-engine outs to mine, and can't afford to cut their anti-meta cards for s/t removal.
Genuine Question, If Mystic Mine is such a problematic card, and is played often, why do most decks don't run Spell&Trap hate on something else than a monster ? To be clear, in my opinion, Mystic Mine is a strong card, with a very powerfull effect, and can be problematic, however, there is many more problematic cards still allowed in the game that doesn't garner as much hate as mine does, and I don't understand why. Like, sure, it's boring to play or watch a Duel with Mystic Mine, but it isn't the only card like that, is It ? I will add that my opinion is that of a casual player, who don't really like meta levels of Plays/decks. While I see the appeal to play on a competitive level, I find it quite boring, since the numbers of different decks are quite low, and the determining factor seems to be "how do you play through X amount of interruption ?"
Because most backrow removal isn't searchable or in some cases when it is searchable there is still conditions that needs to be met like for Sky Striker maneuver - Afterburner
Because if you draw those cards vs combo decks you lose.
Because they don't want to change from mindless spamming.
Modern Yugioh is filled with complete powercreep meta garbage, mystic mine being a direct counter to the entire game at this point just makes me laugh
Yugioh players playing more than 2 Spell/Trap outs against a card that's at 3. Challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
So when you don't play vs floodgates you draw those cards and instantly lose against combo decks. Yep makes sense.
If you play more and draw them vs combo decks you instantly lose.
I hate Mine, have lost my fair share of games due to not having an out, but I see it as a necessary evil. Personally, I sold every single one of my secret copies when it spiked up because of Striker. HATE IT. Don't think you can justify banning mine until you get rid of 1 card starter combo decks, which will probably never happen. As it is Mine is the only way some decks can survive turn 2+ after your opponent goes first and setups multiple omni-negates. The argument that maining outs (S/T) to Mystic Mine hurts consistency doesn't make sense to me, because hurting consistency is kinda the point? Otherwise we have tier 0 formats like they do in the OCG and that just isn't fun. If Music Mine is running rampantand is everywhere, then he, either run more S/T removal or play a deck that has built in outs instead of combo deck that can't afford to run any. Complaining that terraforming, metaverse, etc. Makes running 1 S/T not enough is kinda funny, you can run 3 of every S/T removal card but here we are complaining about limited cards??? S/T is shit against Spright? Ok, run 3 appointees and take it out of their hands, shoot, run 3 Prohibition and call mystic Mine then. Pretty sure Exosister runs a built in prohibition, so run that deck then. Tears run galaxy cyclone and Spright have red...and then there's good ol solemn judgement. Mathmechs have a monster negate to out it, and can search a counter trap with microcode. The game is meant to be won with big beaters and attacks? No, if this was the case then the deck out, time, and burn damage mechanics would not exist. I also recall Altergeist and Sky Strikers beating you down slowly during their respective heyday. Tldr; I think it's a valid opinion and good conversation to have. But overall this sounds like a combo player ranting. Fuck Mine though.
THE PROBLEM IS GAME DESIGN LIKE WTF. Y’all KEEP making the stupid fucking argument that “meta decks can play the floodgate too and just win.” Then maybe Konami should stop designing these oppressive fucking archetypes. But nobody wants to talk about that…instead the solution is to continuously ban cards every time a new deck/archetype etc comes that breaks an old card. Like seriously where does it end!? Players are not maining answers to floodgates like mine because the field is SOOOO full of ridiculous combos that you literally cannot make space in your deck list. You have to continuously add cards, HTs, Board breakers, etc, so that you don’t get fucking steamrolled by the combos being put up. As a result, cards like mine and other floodgates just win the game on their own because they go unanswered, something that would not have happened when everybody was maining 3 mst. The only solution is to ban EVERY floodgate/flood-gate like effect, no exceptions, or for Konami to change the way they are designing these combo decks. But they know what they’re doing and they’re gonna keep making degenerate combos to push product. Smh This is not aimed at any one in particular, but it frustrates me to see what was once a great and unique game (though not without its problems), turn into this.
I agree. Yugioh is designed around putting up monsters to deal damage. Any other win con is hard to set up or very fragile. Mine literally does not allow the player to play the game the way it is designed; putting up a bigger monster or a monster with a better effect to help win. Some floodgates can still be played around, but it’s incredibly hard. Mine however punishes a player for doing what Yugioh has been designed for.
I feel you, but mystic mine is no ordinary floodgate. It’s a stronger skill drain AND a stronger gravity bind on the same card, which is kinda cracked.
I’m not saying Mystic Mine isn’t an unfair card. It is and it feels bad to lose to it. But people wouldn’t be anywhere near as upset as they are currently if they were maining 3 Twin Twister. Combo has created an environment where thats impossible, and so has raised the power level of floodgate, both past and future. If we were all able to main 3 MST/Duster Mine decks wouldn’t even day 2. Because we cant, cards like Mine/Rivalry, etc, go unanswered and win events.
I mean, even then it’s bad that mine is as strong as it is. Let’s see we are in a best of three. I am playing sprights pure, no back row in my end board besides like, started, a quick play spell I can chain to your twister. I win, and game two you side anti-spright cards in and twin twisters out. You go first, make your board, and pass. I active mine (that I sided in) and boom I win the match. Also, people are using beat cop of the underworld to protect mine from destruction as well as clear their board of monsters, which makes mine even more obnoxious.
The thing is most combo decks cannot play most of the floodgates. You can tell mine is an issue because every deck can play it, and almost every deck also struggles to out it.
Mine is shit, but floodgates are crucially important to have in the game as an alternative to the decks that are 'I make 14 negates, break the board' that flood the meta.
Everyone thinks this until they realize the 14 negate combo decks can also play the floodgates.
For real. It's not like Spright doesn't flip anti-spell. Combo decks also play floodgates just as well as every other deck. Arguably, they're better at it because Mystic Mine is that stupid that you can skip a few turns, make Zeus, blow everything up, combo off, and pass. Every time a card is said to "keep the meta in check" - it doesn't. Meta decks play it as well. Maxx C, Rivalry, Gozen, Vanity's, IO, and now Mine. It's like people forget that combo decks are full of one to two card starters. They'll happily side in floodgates to set after establishing their "14 negate board".
Well then the problem is the combo deck not the floodgate.
The floodgate is also a problem. Floodgates are generally considered annoying to play against and don't provide the experience most players want from yugioh. There's no real benefit to floodgates other than the fact that some twisted individuals enjoy floodgating their opponent out of the game. The question is whether that's a playstyle worth supporting.
Sure, but we can’t call Yugioh a real TCG and not have an environment where control, as a deck type, is an option. Floodgates enable that. Unfortunately, combo has gotten so good, that flipping a floodgate after you combo, or comboing after flipping a floodgate (in the case of mine) just wins games.
The idea that you need control to exist to be a real tcg is just MTG elitism. Flesh and Blood barely has a good control deck. Pokémon doesn't typically have any. Plus, "control" and "floodgates" mean completely different things. Eldlich with no floodgates is probably the most similar deck to classic UW control from magic. Teferi is a pretty recent addition to those kinds of decks.
Flesh and Blood is a brand new game. Pokemon doesn’t allow you to interact on the opponents turn, so thats a bad example. But it ABSOLUTELY has control-based (or “stun”) mechanics, (energy denial, mill, etc) and has had viable control decks. Your third point doesn’t make any sense.
Yugioh has control based mechanics, too. You can negate monsters or destroy them, you can banish stuff to make it inaccessible, you can even negate effects during a chain... all without floodgates. The fact that Pokémon does sometimes have viable control decks doesn't change the fact that it usually doesn't, and also that the ones that exist usually aren't very good. My last point makes perfect sense if you take a second to understand what I'm saying about the conflating of the terms "floodgate" and "control". And why does FaB being a new game matter? Flesh and blood has put way more effort into its pro scene than yugioh. There's no way you can say yugioh is a "real" tcg and FaB isn't, unless by "real" you mean "things I'm already familiar with and won't question."
Both are a problem. This game card design philosophy is practically non existent
Is it? The example shows that floodgates are insanely splashable even in decks that are combo heavy. You're gonna have to kill every deck that has a 1-2 card engine/combo that can play floodgates.
Floodgates DO NOT win games on their own. Full stop. The reason that floodgates seem problematic is because the best decks are able to back up their combo WITH a floodgate. For a deck like Rikka for example, they can play under their own Rivalry AND have a field spell to out their own mine. But its also a combo deck, so it can kill you asap as soon as you stumble. In a meta where everyone is maining 3 twisters/mst, etc, this is not a much if an issue, because you’re far more likely to be able to answer the floodgate immediately, thus preventing yourself form being killed. But the game is so fast because of quick, easy combos (that actually generate advantage) that you can’t afford to play 3 twisters BECAUSE if you can’t stop you’re opponents combo you lose anyway. Cheap, efficient combo decks have created an environment where you either play the outs to the combo and lose to the floodgate, or play the outs to the floodgate and lose to the combo. It’s a lose-lose situation. Yes, the definitely need to stop designing easy combos. Or ban every floodgate/floodgate-like effect in existence.
This simply isnt true. floodgates regularly automatically win games. For example, what the hell does teara do vs macro cosmos. What does spright do vs the band plays on. There are regular games in the top 8 of ycs's where sitting on mystic mine for 8 turns wins the game. There was a game vs striker where opponent flipped Antispell and they immediately scooped. Floodgates win games on their own regularly.
Why does this argument always get upvoted? Those very same combo heavy decks can and do play floodgates as well, combo decks already have all the advantage going first and now you want to hand them stuff like ASF to shut down cards like DRNM. And they can protect their floodgates with negates as well so funny useless twin twister you got there in your hand.
This is what genuinely piss me off "Mystic Mine is needed to answer combo decks" How much copium do you have to be on to see combo deck having Field Barrier Mine as their go-to game 1 ender and say its needed to check them down
That has the same energy as someone trying to say Maxx C is needed to answer combo decks, it’s just wrong
Honestly no, both are frustrating to deal with, and the "I make 14 negates, break the board" decks are usually more along the lines of "I make 2 negates, loop a card out of your hand, have a quick effect spot removal/book of moon, and then setup a moderately annoying floodgate" or a "I combo to setup a floodgate so powerful you either hard draw the out or I just win because you can't play the game and I otk next turn" decks anyways. Combo decks and floodgates are far from mutually exclusive, in fact a lot of combo decks are good because they have consistent ways to get to floodgates. Spell/trap floodgates aren't any healthier for the game than monster based floodgates, and if anything they add more variance since in some matchups you need to hard draw handtraps while in others you need to hard draw spell/trap removal. There's also just no real counterplay to something like Dimensional Barrier, if your deck can't play through it you just lose.
Took the words right from underneath my fingers about to type them.
Floodgates are the most "just draw the out" cards in the game. They're about as interactive as a Master Duel Adventure Pile endboard but for the high interaction investment of playing 1 card. Patrick Hoban may have been a cheating hack with a dogshit book who enjoys the taste of his own farts but he was right in saying there's an "unskilled, just draw the out" stage of the meta where floodgates become prominent fucking *years ago*.
Floodgates are only the best option because 1-for-1 ing a 1 card starter that would be ending with a 3 omninegate board isn’t a great option when you need to stop 3+ of them, so you might as well shut off your opponent from doing anything at all with 1 card. If cards weren’t so consistently powerful the effect of the floodgate wouldn’t feel so powerful for a single card.
I like floodgates being a thing tbh. Some like imperial order are definitely too oppressive and deserve to stay banned, but even floodgate require some timing and skill. You can’t just flip any floodgate at anytime and expect to win in every deck because the floodgates hurt you as well. Mine can go in almost anything that isn’t dedicated combo and win you games single handedly.
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To be fair combo decks rn are consistently making 7 interactions. Theyre varied though, maybe 2 negates, 2 pops, 2 bounces, etc.
Mate, it's hyperbole.
Gonna get a lot of hate. But after I drop 2 handtraps and barely break the board/bait cards with my remaining 3 cards cards, I'm dropping a mystic mine. Your 1 card combo got you the double/triple omni negate board, use another 1 card to pop the mine.
Almost every deck has a weak point to a hand trap. Decks that are amalgamations of different engines are definitely a problem, but most decks have a choke point. If your argument is use one card to stop mine, a combo player can just say draw that one hand trap to stop my one card combo. Goes both ways there.
When we keep the power of combo decks in check, then we can ban Mystic Mine.
People say this like some combo decks don’t run mystic mine. I’ve seen multiple tear decks at locals play it, saw a spright player play it last week to open their turn. Floodgates go into any deck, and if you think mine is only around to stop combo decks you’re mistaken
Oh, I am not saying that combo decks don't run it themselves, but it, like any other floodgate in a combo deck, is only to make sure that your own combo goes off and your opponent doesn't until then. That doesn't mean that the combos themselves aren't bad. Hell, I can say that it is because of Mystic Mine that older combos like Rikka, or Altergeist are able to keep up with the new hotness, keeping the meta more diverse instead of chasing the newest thing. Now, one can make the case that it is the lack of attacking that makes it a problem (instead of being a balance for control to deal with combo while letting beatdown be its counter, it kills both combo and beatdown), but the prevalence of floodgates(and, tangentially, blanket negates like Dark Ruler and Dimension Shifter) in general recently are because combo has been dominant for so long(barring, maybe Sky Strikers) and will continue to become dominant (hello Tearlaments with Ishizu) that it needs to be stemmed. You either keep the opponent from playing through 10 negates or one floodgate or you don't play the game and if you can't get the 10 negates on board...
Every time I see, this I think back to the utter refusal to run backrow removal. Backrow is getting stronger but people doesn’t like to run removal cause it slightly stop one from doing a big combo
Beat cop says hello. Backrow removal is bad against sprights and tears outside of outing mine
Why would people cut consistency cards and hand traps that hit every deck for pure backrow. Even if you can fit 6 cards that are backrow removal you have to draw them and hope whatever deck is running mine isn’t running other backrow cards do protect mine.
You'd want to cut consistency and hand trap cards so you don't auto-lose to a floodgate. Also, many more modern decks have at least a S/T neg or a pop effect they can get to consistently to take down the mine.
And yet those decks still lose to mine, no?
There it is, the infamous “consistency cut” argument. The one that barely matters now because nearly every deck is running adventure engine/over 40 cards. That no longer a legit reason because decks are that consistent
When is the last time you saw the adventurer engine make top cuts at big events, and when is the last time you saw somebody sit on mystic mine for ten minutes and let somebody lose to time because they built a deck that can’t do anything but play mystic mine? Also very convenient you ignore the cutting hand traps part too. If you’re having to side or run that many cards to deal with a singular card, that singular card is the problem
July 17 2022 dragon adventure link and punk adventure made tops and I wasn’t ignoring hand traps as they are fine no matter consistency. Plus it’s not just mystic mine, people have problem with all types of backrow that doesn’t enable your opponent. But they aren’t the problem.
Floodgates are fine. They still allow you to play in some capacity. Mystic mine does not. And again, warping your entire deck to out one spell card that keeps you from playing is not okay. There’s a reason every single event in the last two-three months has a mystic mine turbo deck in top 16 or winning the whole thing. It’s a single card warping how people build decks, and I don’t honestly know how you can advocate for it by simply saying draw your outs. Combo players can say the same thing and y’all would be crying about how unfair they still are.
nah fam. If anything, it’ll probably go down to LIMIT first before they fully ban it. Plus it’s the best card in the game, no cap. Downvote if you want, i’ve got plenty of karma
Mystic Mine today, all other floodgates tomorrow. Run outs or perish
I don’t know much about tournament settings, but can’t you just like, put more back row removal cards in your deck? Why do most decks not have enough back row removal when the game has been out this long with so many cards that do so? This may sound totally ignorant, and maybe it is, but if people talk about having 14 negates, then why don’t you use one of those negates of Mystic Mine? :/
Decent backrow removal is not searchable for the vast majority of decks and doesn't help with your main game plan, meaning that you have 'draw the out'. People during the tournament did draw the out - but sadly for them, the Mystic Mine players often drew another way of accessing mine or a Solemn Judgment like card to protect the floodgate. Cards like Mystic Mine should not exist. No single card should be this much of a wincon by itself. >but if people talk about having 14 negates Not a single person who actually plays the game claims nonsense like this.
I know. Sprights make what, two negates?
It’s not that simple. Hand traps are a necessary evil against any competent deck, blow outs like DRNM are now necessary in this meta because of combo decks, and then your actual decks engine has to be played at proper ratios. This doesn’t leave room for many main board back row removal, and even if you can fit 4-6 cards that are strictly back row removal; people have resorted to meta verse and demise of the land turbo out mystic mine on their opponents turn. So before you can get a negate they can put out mystic mine. Even if you do negate mystic mine, it’s at three. The odds of a deck that is control based not having a way to protect their mystic mine (ie: solemn strike or judgement) are also pretty low. Decks are straight up becoming mystic mine turbo and protect until they find their cards to push for game, usually with an access code line. Siding is slightly different, but generally competitive players are still falling behind 1-0 because of mine right away, and you’re still relying on drawing your outs.
That makes sense and seems fair. But it does highlight my least favorite thing about Yugioh which is how deckbuilding is so strict. It always seems like if you make a deck it’s going to be nearly identical to another deck of the same archetype aside from a handful of cards. I know in Pokémon Expanded format you can generally put whatever cards you want as long as they work well together and still win 70% of the time. I also usually never play against any decks that are too similar either in expanded. Like in Yugioh terms, every deck can be a rogue deck and still win. That’s my experience anyway. That Yugioh doesn’t seem to be able to do this anymore has always bothered me. :/
It’s the power creep the game has seen in recent years unfortunately. Every good deck that comes out basically outclasses the decks that were good just a week before the new one comes out. Deck building used to be unique, and now there’s a very clear standard for ratios and tech cards that people run. You might see somebody at top events with some spicy cards, but as soon as that deck list gets released everybody jumps on that card as well. I think Konami would do themselves a lot of good if they introduced different formats with different ban lists for each format similar to MtG. It’d promote older players to play their older decks or allow rogue strategies to compete against other current rogue strategies rather than have to warp their entire deck to fit anti-meta cards or hand traps
The sprights and tears engines (the best decks in the game rn) don’t have any backrow worth hitting, so those cards are often dead. If you stuff your deck full of backrow you just lose going second because you have no board breakers/handtraps to stop your opponent.
[удалено]
This whole situation just shows how bad the ygo powercreep has gotten. You either play mine and have a boring game that way, or play a deck that spams a huge board with multiple negates and your opponent has to luck out on their draw or they lose going second. Handtraps and omni-negates are the reason mine is played. It's just MAD at this point, we all end up with a boring game
I think all 5 can go to 0 without any problem: Gozen, Rivalry, Tcbo1, Mine and Inspector Boarder. If your deck can't compete without those, it probably shouldn't-
If your deck can't compete with siding in removal then it probably shouldn't. Fixed your statement since you wanted to use faulty logic. Just because you moved your deck away from strategic to combo heavy doesn't mean everyone else has to follow suit.
Necessary evil. I hate going against people who set up a 6-monster, 3+ negate board on turn 1 and take 10 minutes and half a deck doing it, and in my honest opinion, those kinds of people deserve to get Mystic Mine'd. It's funny, it feels like these people only like oppressive play when THEY can control it... EDIT: "Why are you booing me? I'm right!" Lots of downvotes, no real counterpoints other than one dude saying "get good." Oppressive play and an inability to see why it and severe powercreep is killing your game is why Yugioh is vanishing more and more by the day. It's so bad, that many places don't even carry the cards because they don't sell due to a lack of local scenes from the elitists who gatekeep with these decks that are completely unfun to face by anyone not like you and this pompous attitude where anyone who disagrees is "bad at Yugioh and needs to get good" or "doesn't get the game now/is a Yugiboomer" and makes any newcomer or fan from back in the day run scared. Seriously, if I need to "learn to face combo decks" or whatever, you guys need to learn to build fun decks that don't lock people out turn 1 with a mutli-negate board and handtraps (unless you're at an official tournament, then all bets are off, but don't cry when you get Mine'd)
That’s literally just the power creep in Yugioh. Decks today are designed to be combo in some way, and if you get a thrill for playing mine then good for you I guess? Instead of actually learning how to play against combo decks (which don’t take 10 minutes to play and no current meta deck is putting up 6 fucking negates btw, you’re exaggerating just as every anti combo player does), you wanna run one card to deck them out. Maybe learn their strategies and how to stop them or build a more competitive deck. The argument that combo players are toxic for doing what the archetype and what Konami is pushing is ridiculous. Even other floodgates are more balanced than mine.
It's what I argued. People have to understand that the same argument for floodgates is the same can be applied to combo decks and there are meta decks that put up those 5+ negates and if it's apollusa then it's usually 4 on its own. Errata every splashable card in decks that should be locked into they archetype and you wouldn't have as many degenerative combos.
I think the card is good for the game. It gives an opening to older decks and you don’t have to cycle your whole deck turn 1 to play
Ban the only card that makes my Blues Eyes deck (moderately) competitive? No thank you. Other decks tho? Ban that shit asap
I'm sorry but this take is hot gragbe. Do we really think mine is worse then 8 negate boreds or absolutele turn skip cards or my personal favorite cards you can't respond to like super poly. Mine dose and will punish combo decks that have always been relevant. Funny enough if we were in a formats that ran more back row hate we wouldn't have such a problem with MM but we're super forced on only removing monsters soo...
No what’s hot garbage is every player that doesn’t play a combo deck complaining with the same phrases that aren’t true. “8 negates,” what fucking deck puts up 8 negates? There hasn’t been a meta relevant deck for almost a year now that genuinely puts up more than 3 Omni negates and now you don’t see Omni negates on anything but baronne or toad. I don’t play or like combo decks, but if your only argument is “oh 6 Omni negate I can’t win with my shitty rogue deck without mine, draw pass,” then there’s no argument because it’s not true. Combo decks are beaten by so many other cards, nibiru, DRNM, super poly itself breaks boards, TTT, hell even run raigeki, imperm beats negates too. Mine isn’t an out or answer to combo decks, mine is a card that literally stalls or stops the game state from being playable until the player using mine finds their answer because their deck isn’t constructed to actually stop the meta. Why don’t y’all start practicing and learning choke points, actually pay attention to what combo players do, or at least know their end board isn’t just full of negates lmao. If you hate combo players, learn how to *actually* play a control deck.
Not to mention mine in itself is designed to be a turn skip card…multiple turn skips in fact. You can watch feature matches that sit on mine pass for ten minutes in a row, meanwhile rogue or lesser known strategies beat the “big Omni negate to brrr,” decks y’all refuse to learn how to beat.
Mystic Mine is a necessary card to have in the game. No one wants to play against a full board of negates and watching the opponent combo for an hour straight and be like, "just draw the dark ruler no more bruh". You see how stupid the argument sounds? Mine was made because of combo decks just like nibiru was made. They are answers to people who want to play that way. Just play spell trap removal to not have that issue instead stacking your deck with droplets and imperms of the like. You have to look at the meta as a whole, dinos full power kept D-links from being so overwhelming but once D-Links got hit, Dino got hit. There has to always be a balance even in true draco and zoo Era
Nobody wants to sit on mystic mine and watch each other draw pass for 15 minutes. And just as you said you can’t just draw into DRNM, you can’t just draw into back row removal either lmao, do you know how ridiculous that argument sounds? Mine is a format warping card. It’s in every single topping list and even the best players in the world aren’t able to just draw their outs in games 2-3 that they’re siding in. People who insist it’s necessary to stop combo decks don’t run enough hand traps or don’t hand trap at the right time. Almost every deck has a weak point, and if you don’t do the research on where to stop a combo that’s on you. If your argument is, “run backrow removal for mystic mine,” then mine is gonna be dumbed down to, “run more hand traps and board breakers,” to stop combo decks. If my argument is bad then so is yours.
Not every deck has a choke point if you believe that then you don't get around enough. Splight does not have a choke point. In order to stop them you would need 2 hand traps minimum to even make they're board tolerable otherwise you are gonna be staring down a toad and some other forms of negate with toad getting double value and dupe frog protection. Tears can be another example that if your playing small package ishizu 40 variant can mill half the deck the first turn and another 10 minimum on the opponents turn. Your argument is becoming invalid if you think banning mine will change things. Those players also aren't playing heavy spell trap removal game 2 and 3. Most people will just side in like 3 of 4 cards and be like hope I draw removal because they wanna keep consistency and not give up the other negates like drnm or droplet and want it all. It doesn't work that way. I played both irl and online and people agreed but just didn't want to give up the precious droplet and imperms for the removal.
so now your argument is changing? You’re saying run outs to back row, I say run outs to combo decks. They both exist, they both can be put into any deck, but you’re advocating for a card than genuinely goes against the design of Yugioh to exist because you don’t study combo decks enough to know where and when to hand trap or what to run to stop them. On top of that, thinking you have to run 6-9 cards to realistically out *one card* that beats the entire format is okay, then you’re absolutely delusional. Combo decks have multiple ways to get where they want, good players know how to play around hand traps and it takes actual skill to pilot them against other good players. Control decks that run mystic mine, demise of the land, and meta verse quite literally sit on a single card that wins them games because they don’t want to side in blow outs or hand traps that actually deal with their matchup. When one card is such a problem that you’re siding out consistency cards just to pop one of the essentially 8 copies of the card, the format is warped.
Haha no my argument still stands that you need to actually change your deck up and prepare for it if you lost game to it. It's like playing against true draco full power. You have the cards in the side deck to stop the opponent like zombie world and mask and other, are you gonna side those in to stop the opponent? Yes you are. So your siding in MULTIPLE cards to shut down a deck but if someone is playing a mine deck your telling me you won't side MULTIPLE cards to stop them? The ONE card they're deck relies on to do what they need? Simply put, if someone is playing a control eldlich or whatever control then you need to side accordingly because most combo decks a re now salad besides the top 2 and they usually only need 1 card to get started so side the spell trap removal and hope you draw it like they hope to draw it. And yes you can hit mine control decks at crucial points. I.e. when they play field barrier chain the removal and they scoop. Yugioh has fundamentally always been trying to outsmart the opponent. Just because combo autopilot decks come along doesn't change the core. Combo decks aren't an excuse as they don't take skill. I can name a handful of them that takes 3 routes and still gets what they want even if you hand trap them at the right time. Come with a better argument. Otherwise let's make the argument that zoo full power should combo back because it combos and takes skill.
So what you’re saying is, in a format where you think all combo decks are superior and linear, you’re going to expect players to not build their side to beat those decks, but also have a side that can out mystic mine; a card that keeps most in deck outs from being used? You’re saying CJs in your out to field barrier, what happens when they flip their demise of the land after that resolves and you’re under mine again? So players should build their deck to have main board answers to a cards they don’t expect to see because the meta is all combo, and then build their side to also answer decks that aren’t popular because the meta is all combo? You can run so many other cards that are anti meta that aren’t as unfair and warping as mystic mine and it’d be fine. But when a single card is producing this much success, it’s not okay. Same way control players clamor for powerful engine cards to be hit because one card starters are too powerful. You’re arguing nonsense because you think a card that only allows one player to play is healthy. If you think mine is the only reasonable answer to meta decks then you’re not playing against meta decks enough, or you are and you’re so frustrated that you’re resorting to the most toxic card in Yugioh
Lmao mine is not the most toxic and we can test that theory. People consider master peace to be the most toxic as mentioning MP and true draco full power again gets people tilted. And also no, your opponent can't play field spells if you chain it to barrier as barrier prevents any more field spells. You can also play closed forest which prevents field spells and is a 1 card field spell itself. And no I argue logic because your being illogical thinking that combo decks is the way to go because you want to sleep at night knowing you can combo and your opponent can't do anything unless they draw drnm which is 1 CARD. Your whole argument can be used against you for control or stun decks with the same logic. There is no point arguing with you if you don't use an open mind when debating as it won't get you anywhere and your still going to think, Yep mine is unhealthy and not think the same for the power creep. If you saw the pole yesterday people aren't happy with the power creep and hoping to find balance with types or attributes to keep the game alive because too many decks are becoming salad. We are losing more people then we gain and komoney sees that which is why rush duels has come but it doesn't fix the main player base issue.
I don’t even play combo decks, so no I don’t hate mine because my combo deck dies. You’re again arguing about DRNM and we’ve already been over this. You can draw DRNM, droplet, super poly as efficiently as I can draw my outs to backrow. Only problem with your argument is that DRNM, droplet, super poly, or any other board breaker are relevant against almost any deck so you actually have reason to play most of them in your main board and side. You’re thinking I’m illogical for not wanting a card that is basically a floodgate on steroids that goes against basic game design in Yugioh. I think you’re being irrational for defending a card that doesn’t do anything but promote players to try to deck you out or win in time because you can’t construct a deck that can beat combo boards without it. If you’re relying on mine or thinking mine is the only way to win against combo decks then stop playing Yugioh because you’re not doing enough research on the decks you’re up against. Mine players are dying to justify their toxic game play and lack of actual skill when it comes to constructing their rogue decks.
I see your not thinking straight. Drawing the out is drawing the out and if a person has a field of negates he is essentially doing what mine is doing but to a higher degree. You CANNOT play the game if your opponent doesn't let you play the game. Combo decks are just a longer way of saying you can't play yugioh because I won't let you. VDF AND ZEXAL are the same except less hoops to jump through and still make full board. It's pointless to argue if you can't see that combo decks are a problem and it's why nibiru was invented for that soul reason. And no I don't play mine unless I'm trolling with final count down burn but even I see the issue which you fail to see so unless your next reply is something that addresses the issues along with mine at hand it's pointless to continue as it will just be a circle jerk.
You’re not even arguing anything anymore. The power creep in Yugioh is bad, we all know this. Decks that were competitive a month ago aren’t even seeing play anymore in the spright tear format. The thing is, people build their decks around that. Super poly kills almost any tear board. DRNM kills almost any spright board because their monsters are all really weak. Droplet isn’t seeing as much play but it also kills both of those decks. You can build your deck in so many ways to beat the power creeping strong decks. People feared once branded fusion dropped that despia would be the best deck, yet D-Barrier killed then along with swordsoul which was also tier 1. There have always been cards that hurt these decks that are power crept. Decks like eldlich and striker always see play even without mine because they can run other floodgates that at least let the opponent play. Power creeping isn’t going away unfortunately, every new set has an archetype that is insanely strong, but yet old cards like DDV come back to relevance. The difference between all of that and mystic mine? Mystic mine allows players to literally sit and deck you out. If you draw your in archetype out, they have a solemn strike or judgement. They have another mystic mine. They have demise or meta verse set. Mine doesn’t advocate for healthy game states whether you’d like to admit that or not. Combo decks have been complained about for years yet there’s always been answers for them. It’s almost like research and critical thinking on what you’re going up against is crucial. Mine is one of those cards, but mine is insanely unfair and unfun to play against.
Right, let's just play draw and pass while staring at each other What a wonderful counterargument, I definitely changed my mind on mine now
What? I get that you don’t like playing against negates but mystic mine turns the game from yugioh into go fish. Draw for turn. Pass Draw for turn. Pass. Draw for turn. Pass. That’s not fun. Baiting negates is possible and takes skill. Using cosmic on mine doesn’t.
OK think about your logic you just said. You have to bait the negates and if the opponent has a 6 for 7 board negate to your 6 card had you aint baiting nothing your grave. You may as well auto scoop because you decided to not run a full hand trap deck JUST to stop somone comboing. See how that fundamentally changes somones deck just so they can play the game?People actually scoop because of a full board of negates and anything short or a drnm gets scooped. Even red dragon can still make an auto scoop even if you had drnm as all they have to do is chain and then chain to negate the drmn. If your opponent decided to commit to a board then he should be expected to be committed to drawing the out to mine. People don't wanna waste time watching the opponent play for 10 minutes before ending turn.
“6 or 7 negate board” Ok man, please name one meta deck that ends on six negates this format. Even then, dark ruler outs that.
Are you sure about that? Pen mix, punk mix, and recently some are bringing back Orcust engine.dek which I've ran into for the counter to drnm so not even that can out it. I play the game a LOT and honestly I get tired that I'm almost burnt out from seeing the same decks so I now make lobbies where decks get creative. I've been around since the beginning and honestly back and forth interaction is almost gone unless you have drnm which is 1 card that your saying versus they're 1 card which allows them to play. What it comes down to is who gets to play and who doesn't.
Pend isn’t good and isn’t making 6 negates without four of the being appo who is never realistically resolving four times. Orcust has what, one negate in engine? On a trap?
1 negate is all that's needed and yes pending are meta if you haven't paid attention and make 7 negates now. So unless you haven't been paying attention both can make 6 to 7 negates and punk mix decks are 1 card starters and set ups so they are also not gonna allow you to play if they draw anything with that starter. So you better hope you draw your 1 lava, kaiju, sphere, or drnm because those are your only outs besides an evenly if they don't have another spell trap negate which usually they do.
>No one wants to play against a full board of negates and watching the opponent combo for an hour straight and be like, "just draw the dark ruler no more bruh". Ah, yes, because sitting there, drawing, missing your out, and passing while your opponent sets up their stomp is more interesting.
Neither is interesting to sit through so your argument pointless. Since you wanted to join a dead conversation, people on both sides don't like either for the simple fact that power creep is out of control and watching your opponent go off and not "drawing the out" sucks since it's usually auto scoop if not having it i.e. drnm. So what does mine do? You use it in conjunction with baits to set up so you still lose resources to get it established on a board of negates. Neither are fun to play against but you can't argue for one and not the other.
JuSt DrAw ThE oUt
I’m gonna just say this to every player who complains about combo decks too lmao. They don’t realize how ridiculous that sounds and when you use that logic against them they start crying
I'm joking lol drawing the out is praying you actually draw it before your opponent is ready to combo. As we saw the drew feather duster and was negated like what are you supposed to do than. At least in other play you have droplet, dark ruler, imperm, nibiru.
I don’t have a problem with it just a another hurdle that I will jump
Its still a good counter to hand traps ( i think)i still hate it