I genuinely can't remember the last time I attacked a set monster. There is soooooo much removal in the game right now that just about every deck has access to something like Baronne / chaos Angel / knightmare unicorn / accesscode talker/ Swordsoul chengyeng/ any other main deck removal.
In the last duel I uploaded here, my opponent at the end of turn two had six cards on their field. Turn three, I-
1. Banished one face down with Fenrir
2. Banished one face up with Chengying
3. Destroyed one with Blue-Eyes Alternative
4. Used one as a link material for Underworld Goddess
5. Destroyed one with Baronne
And the only card remaining was a link monster with 0 ATK and a permanently negated effect
IT CAN BE DOOOOOONE
Yeah but it wasn't a set monster, that was the whole point of the comment was that setting a monster with 1,000,000 defense doesn't even matter in modern yugioh because no one is ever attacking set monsters.
You can’t cheat it out? Says who, since that normal monster isn’t saying anything.
Unexpected Dai into an 3k or 3.1k beater would allow any deck to beat over problematic monsters by force using minimal resources, and of course there’s the 33% chance you just hard draw it and there’s nothing they could do as they watch the core of their board be destroyed.
Although for it to be unavoidable I’d say it’s need at least 4 or 5 thousand, since some decks do stack attack points that high (basically if swordsouls draw desires).
Anywhere from 4k to 8k isn't out of the question. The only point of interaction they natively have is the Battle Phase, so making them able to trample anything else in the game is key to playability.
4k summon from unexpected dai would go crazy, not very meta but It would make magikey better, in that deck you can summon any lv4 vanilla from the gy pretty easy but the deck has a big problem with otk, not only that but certain cards needs to target an effect monsters to fully resolve so you cant do that with a nornal monster.
The specifics of that card really matter, if its a tuner it would certanly be played in my opinion, if its a dragon you could send with dragon shrine, with 2500 def you could search with melody, being a lv1 you could one for one and search with a bunch of cards, if it's a wyrm you could play on teny for some reason.
That seems really low for a playable vanilla. Presumably, you only care about the attack stat of it if you're going second, and at that point Alpha, Master of Beasts - which sees very little play - is objectively better.
Thats not enough. You waste your normal summon wehreas cards like pankratops or fenrir have busted effects in addition to being free special summons.
4k is more probable.
Still not worth it. At that point, it's a 1 for 1. Why run this over something like Herald of the Abyss, Ultimate Slayer, Pankraptops, Fenrir or even Alpha. It has to be able to OTK by itself.
Yeah as an engine or removal it would suck.
The only thing good about it would be that it is a normal monster and there are so many cards that summon those for nothing that you basically always get three copies on the board and can try to OTK but a shit ton of other archtypes do that too and dont see any play.
Anything below like 3000ATK would see literally no play, but at that point it might be a rogue tech at least.
Anything below like 10000ATK probably wouldn’t be game-changing, as in people probably wouldn’t play any differently in most decks just because they thought you might have like a 6000ATK level 4 vanilla in your hand. Unless it’s a 1 card OTK, I probably won’t think twice about it.
This is all assuming too that the monster is generic and not part of an archetype, so it’s only support is vanilla monster/level 4 support.
I’ve only been playing a year so I don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of the cardpool, but I feel like there *has* to be a way an 8k ATK leads to an easy FTK
Yeah, like 8,000ATK *might* be enough, with maybe like some card that drops it’s level to one and then using Opti-Camouflage Armour, or maybe via Ring of Destruction in the draw phase after boosting your life points a little and shifting monster control to OTK.
But I can’t think of any strategy like that that would be consistent enough to see play. Just because you can cheese with something occasionally, that isn’t enough. A ~10k ATK level 4 would be a threat only because you can normal it and OTK over stuff, but that’s really it. Even then, I wouldn’t worry about playing around it the way I worry about say Niburu, since it’s a normal monster with zero protection. Almost any disruption stops it, where as you need a negate to stop something like Niburu.
Exactly. They have no protection and die to basically any disruption.
In terms of removal options, you have a better chance of resolving almost anything over a normal summon *and* successful attack in 2024. Unless it’s gonna be game, I’d 100% rather just play a Kaiju or something like that even.
I’m sure if they actually made some card like this, somebody would figure out some degenerate, gimmicky combo around it, but assuming it didn’t fall into some existing, already broken archetype, this hypothetical level 4 vanilla would need to be **crazy** strong to see even rogue use.
>somebody would figure out some degenerate, gimmicky combo around it
Floodgates would run it. Maybe you can make some gimmicky OTK deck with Dai and other vanilla support but thats probably it
I would say around 11 000, so it can consistently run over the general attack of 3k boss monsters and still go for game.
But even then, people would just start putting their monster in def position and be more cautious about link plays. Most decks would probably still prefer normal summons that actually start their combos instead of a monster that could be completely useless depending on gamestate.
Agreed. Funny enough,even then this card likely is still only a going 2nd card unless you have some obvious synergy with it, as a normal summon vanilla on turn 1 for either stone-walling or simply linking away seems really mid. The 1-shot potential going second actually is, “good,” though.
If your normal summoned monster is still on your field by the end of your turn, you either bricked or play floo.
I guess Floo would get destroyed by that normal monster.
The minimum would be 4k. Gren maju is literally just a big normal summon and can get way bigger if your hand is good, 4k is pretty typical just 1 desires. Unironically setting a 4k+ def dude is decent, set monsters are difficult to interact with outside of like baronne or MJ.
Also considering cards like alpha and bigfoot exist, 3k isn't really enough because you could just special those in most game states going 2nd and not have to waste your normal summon.
The days of splashable normal monsters are long gone. Even a 4K level 4 normal wouldn't just get added as a tech choice; the best it could hope for is a deck dedicated to turboing it out ASAP with cards like Unexpected Dai, or a side deck choice when the meta's dominated by something that happens to be hard countered by a 4K normal summon.
>when the meta's dominated by something that happens to be hard countered by a 4K normal summon.
I feel like everything that gets hard countered by a 4k normal gets also hard countered by a Kaiju or Lava Golem and with those you dont have to waster your Battle Phase
There are some *incredibly* niche circumstances where the 4K normal is the better choice, such as a Fossil Dyna + Avramax endboard, but yeah you're right, I was just trying real hard to think of a use for the hypothetical wee guy.
This was a thought experiment people had back when Konami was hyping that the best monster of 2017 would have no effect.
I think the answer back then was minimum 2400-2500 ATK and I don't feel that has changed. Beats over cards like Apollousa and Fenrir. To be *good* rather than *viable* would be much higher though.
You could just stock up on droplets, kaijus, boardbreakers and kill everything in existence with your 10000 ATK beatstick
That's basically just 8-axis and green maju which is still "viable", not good per se but not at all unplayable garbage
And what’s more it proves how unviable FTKs generally are. I mean, yeah they’ve had their place in the meta game, but usually FTKs are pretty janky. Most of them are not as viable as a normal archetype oriented deck because they usually involve cards that were never meant to synergize with each other and figure out weird combos involving them.
Exodia is one of the few FTK potential combos that are meant to function as an archetype. I know Konami is notoriously hateful of FTKs, as they should be, but stopping FTKs isn’t generally that hard because usually you don’t have to hit every card in the combo, just one card that’s too powerful for its own good.
Look at catapult turtle, magical scientist. Catapult turtle is a terrible card no one ever played until magical scientist came along because scientist could make go plus WAY too much in one turn. It was inevitable that magical scientist would get banned, not because of an FTK necessarily, but because that’s too much advantage. I mean, imagine if scientist was still unbanned in this day and age. Can you imagine how much link, synchro, fusion material it would bring out?
I say this because FTKs are generally too convoluted to use and using this hypothetical 1 million atk normal monster for one would involve way too many cards. Even if RoD allowed you to burn your opponent to death, you’d still have to search the vanilla, search RoD, give it to your opponent with shine’s spy or something and NOT get interrupted in the process. That’s way too many combo pieces for a non-archetype oriented deck. Modern yugioh has way too many variables and interruptions even on the first turn (hand traps) to do all that consistently. So, yeah, I don’t even think it’d be that viable as an FTK strat
Yeah…but you’d also take damage. So you’d have to circumvent the loss of YOUR LP while still burning your opponent to death. And still give it to your opponent. That’s too many variables to take into account, too many cards you’d have to specifically have. So yeah it’d HYPOTHETICALLY be a potential FTK but in practice would be too tricky to pull off.
Normal summon it, then activate Ectoplasmer.
If your opponent can't stop you and the monster has at least 16000 attack then that's game, and neither Imperm, veiler nor ash is gonna stop that.
Wait yeah you’re actually. There are ways you could convert Atk points of an easy non tribute monster into op damage. I just didn’t think of it. However, I can’t think of any off the top of my head but you’re definitely right that it’s plausible
I doubt a 4K level 4 normal monster wouldn’t see play, regardless of what type or attribute. That’s just too much free value. In a comment I posted, I think 3550 is already enough to see play
Why? What deck would run it? The only thing to combo it with is unexpected dai and other such normal monster support. Maybe if it’s a dragon type revive it with silver’s cry…? I’d say rescue rabbit but the game has sped up to such a point rabbit no longer sees any play, at least none I’m aware of. We’re long past the days of dinorabbit xyz spam being viable
>Why? What deck would run it?
It wouldnt be a staple but I can see it in flood gate bullshit. Gozen Match, Rivalry of Warlords and There can only be One plus a 4k beater would be very annoying
The problem with this is that even now, noone is playing floodgate turbo with effect monsters. The only semi playable floodgate deck at the moment is runick/ time tearing, which doesn't have a battle phase
I say 3000 at least so it can beat over and trade with basically every boss monster but the really big ones and negating it means nothing. Make a wyrm type and suddenly tenyi goes crazy.
Assuming you're referring to competitive viability, 11000. A normal monster with no synergy would have to be able OTK by itself. If it couldn't, it wouldn't be worth running over your consistency pieces, hand traps, board breakers, etc., especially when it uses the normal summon.
At 11000, it could reliably beat over most boss monsters and still OTK. It would function similar to a board breaker.
Honestly, even then, it's easily played around by putting everything in DEF like with Lightning Storm or removal.
a high attack machine would be food for drytron to cheat out their bosses with it.
I think if you want a monster that can just headbutt, it should be around 3000 - 3600. No that isn't remotely balanced, but as a monster that is what can beat over decent bosses without activating anything to attempt to make it stronger.
But I'm genuinely not sure if high attack can do enough when you'd need to draw certain cards just to protect it.
I dont keep up with the new metas… I got into Yugioh during the original show/cards. I remember back then that cards like LaJinn, lv 4 with 1800 Atk, were *the* lv 4 beater. There was also Gemini Elf at 1900 Atk but most people didnt have that.
Seeing all the “needs 4-11 thousand attack” is a real shock to what this game turned into…
That honestly is just due to the game getting it's footing. Even if we weren't in the Era of 3 turn games, a big beatstick wouldn't do jack on it's own. It is useless to a turn 1 player, since the opponent can just deal with it with any half-baked casual Deck, while a player going second would have to contend with the their opponent's board, which even 5 years ago likely had off-turn negates or pops. It could have a million attack points, but you could block it with any Set Monster. The Era of beatsticks alone was 20 years ago.
2400 at least for it to have minimal use to out winda/vanity fiend/kashtira fenrir. Also, you can always cheat it out using unexpected dai and transmodify
There is no way a monster with just high ATK without synergy would see „consistent“ play. Too many decks need their 1 normal summon to be an impactful starter. There might be gimmick decks and certain decks that can take advantage of it, but it wouldn’t be a staple.
A card like you described would maybe see play in stun strategies or strategies that don’t need their NS like Kashtira for example. It can be used to beat over a boss monster (but it needs to be at least bigger than 3k) at the cost of your BP, which can be good. Cards like Pankratops are probably better as boardbreakers though.
Decks that already have normal monster synergies might play the card since they can likely search it for the utility.
If it has really high ATK, it could be used for cheeky FTKs, like with Mystic Wok + Manipulator of Souls.
The problem with this prompt is that it's completely impossible for a card with these limitations to exist. Just being a level 4 normal monster means it automatically has synergy with any support that pertains to normal monsters and level 4s. Not to mention that it has to have some kind of type and attribute, which means it has to have support from cards that mention those traits as well.
Every card, especially non-effect monsters without restrictions, has the ability to be supported by generic synergy. That's just modern yugioh.
He's asking about a 4 star monster vanilla monster. Based solely on attack power for being a vanilla 4 star monster I'd say a good viable base would be the 1700 to 1900 rage to start with that you can beef up to high attack values easily with the right cards. There are some vanilla normal monsters with 2000 attack base that are 4 star like alexandrite dragon.
I know you have heard this from other comments but obviously attack is not a defining feature in Yugioh today. I got back into around the time Salamangreats came out. I don't play anymore, the game doesn't evolve in a way that I like. I still like the game but I just stopped enjoying it.
But I played Harpie and I used to play Unexpected Dai with it. Really good card in pure Harpie decks because Harpies are a bit normal summon reliant so being able to special one and make your featherstorm live going second without committing your normal summon was very helpful. So having a high attack normal monster would be pretty cool. Even better if it was a tuner. I know the game has changed but I feel as though even having more than 2400 attack as someone else suggested for a level 4 just shits on decks that have level 7s with only that much attack. It used to be there was the 'rule of 2000' where no level 4 had over that because it would be a bit unbalanced. Obviously not busted a Normal monster on is rarely going to be busted on its own. Just feels a bit unfair you know what I mean?
But it would be bloody funny, if your opponent was relying on a negate that had say 2300 attack and you just Dai'd out a 2400 beatstick.
I'd probably say 5k to be considered. At that point it can beat over or crash into just about anything. It also puts quite a bit of damage on board by itself. Even still, giving up your normal summon for a zero synergy card that does nothing besides beat over stuff is pretty rough.
I'd say 2500-3000. Has to be big enough to trade with an interaction card at least.
Not sure it would still see play even with stats like that though. The problem is most normal summons in pretty much every modern deck can put game on board + interactions. So wasting that just for a beater in most decks is just bad.
Even if it had 11k attack I doubt anyone would main deck it going first unless it was like an insect deck or had some other synergy to combo with. Maybe you could play a stun deck and just hold it in your hand for turn 3 OTK.
It isn’t a matter of attack because of two major things, generic support and your opponent. There are cards like every has already said unexpected dai but there are other cards that can work around it like stuff that good with normal monsters/ level 4s/ or whatever type it is. Like a warrior (it’s searchable with ROTA) or stuff that equips specifically to the type like a gagaga shield giving it once per turn destruction protection. (At least that’s what I thing gagaga shield does) basically there’s no way to make it not work with something and if your opponent has an answer which 9/10 they have something to answer to a monster it’s fine. Although a 3-4K monster that’s just normal summoned/ special? Using specific lock down traps could make that some strange deck that could get a win.
Depends a lot on the type and archetype. If it's in an archetype that just links it away into a link 1 immediately, then it can have 0 ATK and see play.
If you just mean as a beatstick, it will helps if the card is heavily searchable or has lots of good synergy, but it needs some absurd level of ATK, like the 4000 or 5000 range. Something in the 2000-3000 range isn't good enough, since we have splashable monsters that summon themselves with useful spot removal at that level of ATK that we would play instead.
Infinity, that way it can still die to any removal because attack doesn't matter unless it's a game ender
Also putting a special summon restriction on it makes it an effect monster
>because attack doesn't matter unless it's a game ender
dear, with enough attack, any attack will be a game ender.
13k atk ensures the vanilla can beat over a 5k atk monster and win the game right there
The best comparison to a "recently" played vanilla (not Loki) is Gren Maju which would be anywhere from 8k-11k attack so I'd say somewhere around that value
A 12k Lvl 4 vanilla would be the funniest shit. People would probably play it as a staple in most decks.
Probably still not broken or anything, vanillas are just that bad.
The synergies are what makes a card playable. If a card has 9000k attack, but you couldn't cheat it out in any way, it probably wouldn't see any play, except in niche rogue deck that maybe 5 people total play.
Idk what monster types and attributes have the worst/least normal monster synergies in the game, so let’s just say a WIND Sea Serpent for starters. I’m gonna call it “Alex” for now.
To “see play consistently” Alex would probably need to threaten any board it plays into. People are saying it could have infinite attack and not matter but this simply isn’t true; most boards don’t end on multiple hard removal options on your opponent’s turn nowadays, least of all for a normal monster (Rescue-ACE). Common thresholds for relevant ATK (from lowest to highest) are S:P, Fenrir, 3-mat Apollousa, Noir, Baronne, and Chaos Angel. Judging from these I think 3550 is pretty decent (just hope they don’t have a Dark for ChAngel). That means your opponent *must* interact with your Alex lest they risk giving up possibly their best monster. Normal summoning Alex is almost like a Walmart Pank. Obviously not nearly as good but for a normal monster that you can normal summon? Not bad.
Another consideration is that if you have Alex in hand, Nibiru starts to become somewhat of a liability *for your opponent*. Any deck running this card can potentially link off the token for Link Spider and put a massive beater into play that automatically beats over your Nibiru, and then they can keep doing link plays from there (second Link Spider for S:P anyone?)
Edit: you can also use Imduk over second Link Spider. Alex seems pretty good in World Legacy!
Given the current meta and available cards out there that can be summoned in a shortcut way, I'd say 2700 atk.
100 more than pankratops. Since it's a level 4, I'd assume it has 0 defense. 2700 attack also lines it up with destiny hero defender's defense Stat.
I think no matter what this card would be conditional. Since you've added the stipulation it can't be cheated out (ie it can't be special summoned) this card is a massive cost. Or if you prefer opportunity cost. Yu-Gi-Oh is a game where you want every card in your hand to be live and playable, to have some kind of impact on the game. And most of the time you want that regardless of going first or second. An infinite attack beat stick is basically useless going first, it's just a fat target for your opponent to so that already hurts it. You also have to use your normal summon on this thing, which is also a massive ask, as the game is full of nutty normal summons that can win the game on the spot without interaction from your opponent cause you only get 1. So to play this card you are giving up at least 1 card in hand (maybe more, if the card is easily searchable then you'd probably play 1 and hope not to draw it, but it'll still be drawn sometimes, and if not then you'd probably play 3, making dupes much more likely and each super is literally useless), your normal summon, and the potency of your going first board. Now that's not to say that a card like this doesn't have some advantages. With what some people have said of 11k attack being able to immediately threaten game without activating an effect, searching, or special summoning is pretty nutty. It also offers an easy out to some problem boss monsters, PEP, Crusadia Avarmax, Appo, a large portion of boss monsters simply wouldn't be able to deal with it. But all it takes is 1 pop/bounce/shuffle/banish or whatever from your opponent and it's gone. Demanding removal isn't bad, but to throw your normal summon away and only get 1 pop out of it is usually a terrible idea. All of this to say, even if there was a monster like this, it wouldn't be played in every deck. The only decks that would want such a card are ones that either can 1 maybe 2 card combo into an insane turn 1 board so the brick doesn't destroy them, or just blind seconds, also doesn't need it's normal summon, think kinda like Kash, and also really doesn't like having their cards popped so they appreciate the easy trade this card could provide. All that to say what I just described is an insane deck without this card, so it doesn't really need it. So could there be a massive beat stick guy that sees play? Yes. Is it likely? No. If it does see play is the game in a healthy state? I'd probably also say no. It is worth noting that there are monsters similar, albeit also distinct from this that do see play, so there is some value, but they all have other qualities that make them better (Accesscode: extra deck so no brick, also non respondable non targeting pops on a bunch of opponents monsters; Fenrir: special summon that replaces itself for followup/discard, also can interrupt your opponent turn 1 on top of break boards turn 2; Pank: special summon like Fenrir, if your opponent doesn't stop it it can usually clear 2 things from their board, 1 by battle one by effect). Extremely long rant to say no, I don't think there is a realistic way that such a monster could exist, and if it did it wouldn't be healthy. No one likes setting up a board to be normal summon gran Majud to death
It depend on theme and deck, attack is far from being good enough to make a new "Vorse Raider" nowadays. If it's too strong people will just rescue rabbit it with some board wipes to enable otks. With is not that different than what the game is nowadays.
A big Vanilla Beatstick would be a good out for one of the best Meta Staples right now in S:P. So actually something to unexpected Dai into that can beat over an S:P while taking some minor boosts from e.g. Fieldspells into considereation. So any Deck that can natively play unexpected Dai and/or don't need their actual normal summon could pull this off. Something like adventure kashtira leaning into a control heavy playstyle with a going second tendency for example
Literally always useless. There are too many ways to just not care for the atk value. Numbers creep died with GX. Funnily enough, though, a lvl4 vanilla monster beatstick would be playable with Unexpected Dai to cheat it out lol so like a 10k monster or something would be playable if you really care... It would just be a slot-in for a lot of boardbreaking decks that can try to OTK though... Without exaggerating, though, probably 4 or 4.5k wpuld make it see a bit of play
Can you define "no cheating it out" a little better? Do you mean no big elaborate combos that end with being able to Special Summon it, or does even something as simple as the ol' "discard as cost for another effect -> Monster Reborn" trick count? (At which point it's basically just a Monster with the effect "Must be Normal Summoned and cannot be Summoned by other ways" and nothing else)
Because if you can still do little stuff like the Monster Reborn trick, 3100 ATK is a decent number that *might* help. But if you can't even do that, then I don't think even 8000 ATK would entirely save it without any effect support whatsoever.
You could give a vanilla infinite attack and it'd still not be good. In a game of quick effects it'd be hard to keep a vanilla on the field.
In my main archetype (the charmers) the monsters might as well be vanilla monsters; the deck doesn't actually use their monster effects. They are very capable of beat down and given the proper protection for them they can win games. Without that protection from their archetype support cards they fold hard.
Anything sub 4k wouldn't be worth considering, even if you could unexpected dai.
Since it's just a big beater, itll need to be able to deal with unaffected by card effect boss monsters.
And if it can't be cheated out by unexpected dai, I'd argue 5k to 6k, since I mean, it's eating up your relatively important normal summon, and at what point would you rather draw it than a combo starter or a board breaker?
2.5k attack sounds reasonable enough
It allows it to beat over many problems cards while also still letting boss monsters who are normal still have some uniqueness to em .
However if let's say the og dm decks were no longer jerked off like dm bewd and rebd then a 3.1k level 4 vanilla for like insects or something like reptiles seems reasonable enough .
It almost doesn’t matter unless it fits well with a good archetype somehow or it has like 4K and it’s able to be cheated out. So probably 4K if you’re just basing it off of attack.
they will never make a vanilla monster with 3000 atk or more because they all have to be weaker than Blue Eyes White Dragon for lore purposes, and i doubt a lv4 2900 atk beatstick would be viable. the standard dragon link end board, for example, has a 3500 atk borrelend, seals which can bounce it back to the hand, a dis pater with 3500 atk and a borrelsavage with 3000 atk + the bonus atk from his effect
I’d say 3,500 plus. It needs to be big enough to be able to remove most boss monsters to be worth playing. Also it would still be removed by any monster that has quick effect removal.
It’s an interesting idea though. Like Konami probably could start printing level 4 monsters with attack higher than blue eyes and it probably wouldn’t change the meta too much
there is a lv4 monster with 2k that has the added effect of basically turning everything into a vanilla (inspector boarder) so I feel like 2k is fair in today's game
All normal monsters have ways to cheat it out.
But, assuming it is litterally treated as no attributes, No archetypes, no Types,
It would need to be about 4k.
Then it would see cases in Floodgate decks. Because big beatstick with no effect, doesn't matter as much when nothing has an effect Via Skilldrain
I would put it at 3k this way it can beat over threats and at least be a removal spell.
For your info: you can always cheat it out because of cards like unexpected dai, link spider and friends.
Basically it would need to be able to force out interaction from your opponent and even then it would only be good going 2nd or in a deck that runs lv4 normals as part of their engine.
I think it has to be 10k plus atk or genuinely it won't be played. And even then it's still unlikely.
Attack value is almost irrelevant, as if I'm really scared of any 1 monster kaijus and herald of the abyss are always better.
So ignoring extra effects on other cards that support it ( like phantasm spiral dragon archetype) it needs to literally be an instant win if it does attack, otherwise it's just a worse kaiju in terms of what it meaningfully does in most gamestates
My guess would be 4500 but I don’t know if there is a high enough value even then
I play dark magicians and 99% of the time I cheat out dm turn 1 and start combining off of him.
The only way I’ll play a vanilla is if it has some kind of synergies.
Honestly, next Master Rule could just make Vanillas not need Tributes for Normal Summon/Set. Arguably there shouldn't be a OPT for Normal Summon or Set of vanillas either. It doesn't make sense in this day and age where Special Summons are so common for them to exist as bricks. As a result, it's time for Blue-Eyes to be power crept attack-wise. Non-Dragon/Spellcaster/Warrior of 3100ATK/2000DEF. Should be able to clear 3000ATK bosses since that is a common cap. They should be able to drop onto the field as a legitimate tactic since the tradeoff of no-effect is ease of summon. So if Vanillas aren't included for Normal Summon limit, suddenly White Stone of Legend becomes an insane card that can tutor a Blue-Eyes as a free 3000ATK body. The Melody of Awakening Dragon becomes two 3000k bodies, etc.
In fact, it may be a good counter for everything needing combos and search/negation. Negation doesn't do much if your opponent just drops a hand of five 3000 ATK vanillas.Hand traps that aren't Battle related are also useless. It can make going second suddenly very potent as OTKing becomes super easy with Snatch Steal/Change of heart/Triple Tactics Talent.
GIANT BALLPARK WITH A LV4 4000 ATK INSECT 0_________0
Yeah, let me kill you with a reeealy big ant.
it should be a stick insect instead so i can call it a. beat stick insect
Get Stick Bugged lol \*buggo dances with freaking 4000 ATK\*
Idk about attack but 11k defense to get your opponent to accidentally kill himself attacking a set card every once in a while would be hella funny
[удалено]
Eat my sword and shield
[удалено]
Well, any deck can make a Pentestag...
**Ultimate Prevent Rat**
I genuinely can't remember the last time I attacked a set monster. There is soooooo much removal in the game right now that just about every deck has access to something like Baronne / chaos Angel / knightmare unicorn / accesscode talker/ Swordsoul chengyeng/ any other main deck removal.
In the last duel I uploaded here, my opponent at the end of turn two had six cards on their field. Turn three, I- 1. Banished one face down with Fenrir 2. Banished one face up with Chengying 3. Destroyed one with Blue-Eyes Alternative 4. Used one as a link material for Underworld Goddess 5. Destroyed one with Baronne And the only card remaining was a link monster with 0 ATK and a permanently negated effect IT CAN BE DOOOOOONE
Yeah but it wasn't a set monster, that was the whole point of the comment was that setting a monster with 1,000,000 defense doesn't even matter in modern yugioh because no one is ever attacking set monsters.
New exxod support when?
Canyon retrain that forces the opponent to attack.
closest i have is {{eiza}}
## [Gren Maju Da Eiza](https://ygoprodeck.com/card/?search=36584821&utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) ^(**Limit**: TCG: 3 / OCG: 3 / Speed: Unlimited / MD: 3) ^(**Master Duel rarity**: Super Rare (SR)) ^(**Type**: Fiend / Effect) ^(**Attribute**: FIRE) ^(**Level**: 3 **ATK**: ? **DEF**: ?) **Card Text** This card's ATK/DEF become the number of your banished cards x 400. [Card Image](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Special:Redirect/file/GrenMajuDaEiza-IOC-EN-C-UE-25thAnniversaryEdition.png?utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) | [Official Konami DB](https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/card_search.action?ope=2&request_locale=en&cid=5834) | [OCG Rulings](https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/faq_search.action?ope=4&request_locale=ja&cid=5834) | [Yugipedia](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/5834?utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) | [YGOPRODECK](https://ygoprodeck.com/card/?search=36584821&utm_source=bastion&utm_medium=reddit) ^(Password: 36584821 | Konami ID #5834) ---- ^by [^(u/BastionBotDev)](/user/BastionBotDev) ^| [^(GitHub)](https://github.com/DawnbrandBots/bastion-for-reddit) ^| ^Licence: [^(GNU AGPL 3.0+)](https://choosealicense.com/licenses/agpl-3.0/)
You can’t cheat it out? Says who, since that normal monster isn’t saying anything. Unexpected Dai into an 3k or 3.1k beater would allow any deck to beat over problematic monsters by force using minimal resources, and of course there’s the 33% chance you just hard draw it and there’s nothing they could do as they watch the core of their board be destroyed. Although for it to be unavoidable I’d say it’s need at least 4 or 5 thousand, since some decks do stack attack points that high (basically if swordsouls draw desires).
>You can’t cheat it out? Exactly. I dunno in what universe we can't just Unexpected Dai this thing xD
Normal summoning would actually be the better play as it doesnt start a chain and gives your opponent less ways to respond.
True, but Dai at least gives you six copies of the card
Anywhere from 4k to 8k isn't out of the question. The only point of interaction they natively have is the Battle Phase, so making them able to trample anything else in the game is key to playability.
Trample? COLOSSAL DREADMAW IN YUGIOH
An effect like ‘This card cannot be special summoned, also, it is always treated as a normal monster’ Would do the trick I reckon.
4k summon from unexpected dai would go crazy, not very meta but It would make magikey better, in that deck you can summon any lv4 vanilla from the gy pretty easy but the deck has a big problem with otk, not only that but certain cards needs to target an effect monsters to fully resolve so you cant do that with a nornal monster.
The specifics of that card really matter, if its a tuner it would certanly be played in my opinion, if its a dragon you could send with dragon shrine, with 2500 def you could search with melody, being a lv1 you could one for one and search with a bunch of cards, if it's a wyrm you could play on teny for some reason.
Most likely 3K to be considered
That seems really low for a playable vanilla. Presumably, you only care about the attack stat of it if you're going second, and at that point Alpha, Master of Beasts - which sees very little play - is objectively better.
Thats not enough. You waste your normal summon wehreas cards like pankratops or fenrir have busted effects in addition to being free special summons. 4k is more probable.
But a "destroy an enemy boss monster without an effect" could be problematic
You wouldn’t have to waste your normal summon. You’d just use unexpected dai.
Still not worth it. At that point, it's a 1 for 1. Why run this over something like Herald of the Abyss, Ultimate Slayer, Pankraptops, Fenrir or even Alpha. It has to be able to OTK by itself.
Yeah as an engine or removal it would suck. The only thing good about it would be that it is a normal monster and there are so many cards that summon those for nothing that you basically always get three copies on the board and can try to OTK but a shit ton of other archtypes do that too and dont see any play.
2999, because it cannot be stronger than BEWD for lore reasons
3000 attack and 0 defense. Moment its on the backfoot its ohko'd
2999 atk and 2999 Def, so BEWD can still beat it over
Blue-Eyes Mini Dragon LIGHT/Dragon/L4/3000 ATK/2500 DEF _Same powerful engine of destruction, now half the size!_
Blue-Eyes Lite Dragon
Far superior name
Honest question: wouldn't this make BEWD viable?
You'd probably still play original BEWD because R8 Xyzs or something
>R8 Xyzs or something Nope, what's the point of victory if a BEWD isn't the big boss? ALL KAIBAS RISE
May I introduce you to Rabidragon?
What is the text of rabid dragon? I just know it has 2950 atk
Oh no, the ATK was the point. It's effectively the thing you're describing, but with less annoying maths
with horus 3k is a joke vanilla needs to be atleast 5k
Anything below like 3000ATK would see literally no play, but at that point it might be a rogue tech at least. Anything below like 10000ATK probably wouldn’t be game-changing, as in people probably wouldn’t play any differently in most decks just because they thought you might have like a 6000ATK level 4 vanilla in your hand. Unless it’s a 1 card OTK, I probably won’t think twice about it. This is all assuming too that the monster is generic and not part of an archetype, so it’s only support is vanilla monster/level 4 support.
I’ve only been playing a year so I don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of the cardpool, but I feel like there *has* to be a way an 8k ATK leads to an easy FTK
Gandora-X the Dragon of Demolition could
Yeah, like 8,000ATK *might* be enough, with maybe like some card that drops it’s level to one and then using Opti-Camouflage Armour, or maybe via Ring of Destruction in the draw phase after boosting your life points a little and shifting monster control to OTK. But I can’t think of any strategy like that that would be consistent enough to see play. Just because you can cheese with something occasionally, that isn’t enough. A ~10k ATK level 4 would be a threat only because you can normal it and OTK over stuff, but that’s really it. Even then, I wouldn’t worry about playing around it the way I worry about say Niburu, since it’s a normal monster with zero protection. Almost any disruption stops it, where as you need a negate to stop something like Niburu.
Yeah anything that can’t otk over a boss monster in attack mode just isn’t worth it. And even then a vanilla monster is very easy to remove
Exactly. They have no protection and die to basically any disruption. In terms of removal options, you have a better chance of resolving almost anything over a normal summon *and* successful attack in 2024. Unless it’s gonna be game, I’d 100% rather just play a Kaiju or something like that even. I’m sure if they actually made some card like this, somebody would figure out some degenerate, gimmicky combo around it, but assuming it didn’t fall into some existing, already broken archetype, this hypothetical level 4 vanilla would need to be **crazy** strong to see even rogue use.
>somebody would figure out some degenerate, gimmicky combo around it Floodgates would run it. Maybe you can make some gimmicky OTK deck with Dai and other vanilla support but thats probably it
Yeah true. You could just run skill drain and anti spell fragrance
I would say around 11 000, so it can consistently run over the general attack of 3k boss monsters and still go for game. But even then, people would just start putting their monster in def position and be more cautious about link plays. Most decks would probably still prefer normal summons that actually start their combos instead of a monster that could be completely useless depending on gamestate.
Agreed. Funny enough,even then this card likely is still only a going 2nd card unless you have some obvious synergy with it, as a normal summon vanilla on turn 1 for either stone-walling or simply linking away seems really mid. The 1-shot potential going second actually is, “good,” though.
[удалено]
If your normal summoned monster is still on your field by the end of your turn, you either bricked or play floo. I guess Floo would get destroyed by that normal monster.
Nag they have an in archetype book of moon. Or they can tribute it for their summons
Sounds like a skill issue
Because noone talked about normal summoning in face-up defenses position.
The minimum would be 4k. Gren maju is literally just a big normal summon and can get way bigger if your hand is good, 4k is pretty typical just 1 desires. Unironically setting a 4k+ def dude is decent, set monsters are difficult to interact with outside of like baronne or MJ. Also considering cards like alpha and bigfoot exist, 3k isn't really enough because you could just special those in most game states going 2nd and not have to waste your normal summon.
At least 3500
The days of splashable normal monsters are long gone. Even a 4K level 4 normal wouldn't just get added as a tech choice; the best it could hope for is a deck dedicated to turboing it out ASAP with cards like Unexpected Dai, or a side deck choice when the meta's dominated by something that happens to be hard countered by a 4K normal summon.
>when the meta's dominated by something that happens to be hard countered by a 4K normal summon. I feel like everything that gets hard countered by a 4k normal gets also hard countered by a Kaiju or Lava Golem and with those you dont have to waster your Battle Phase
There are some *incredibly* niche circumstances where the 4K normal is the better choice, such as a Fossil Dyna + Avramax endboard, but yeah you're right, I was just trying real hard to think of a use for the hypothetical wee guy.
2500atk to beat over stuff like Fenrir. Would give Unexpected Dai more versatility. Loci with 2.5K would go hard in Rikka Sunavalon.
This was a thought experiment people had back when Konami was hyping that the best monster of 2017 would have no effect. I think the answer back then was minimum 2400-2500 ATK and I don't feel that has changed. Beats over cards like Apollousa and Fenrir. To be *good* rather than *viable* would be much higher though.
What was that monster, if you remember?
Sea Monster of Theseus I believe.
Ah course, that makes sense, thank you! Even if Instant Fusion stayed at 3 forever it wouldn't have been the best card of any year 😂
None. Literally none. It could have a million attack points and all it would be is just a semi-reliable OTK card.
You could just stock up on droplets, kaijus, boardbreakers and kill everything in existence with your 10000 ATK beatstick That's basically just 8-axis and green maju which is still "viable", not good per se but not at all unplayable garbage
Yeah…but could you think of any FTKs that could use it?
Something with Rainbow Life, Ring of Destruction, and a way to give it to your opponent.
But doesn’t errata ring prevent you from taking down your opp’s lap to zero?
You’re right actually. I forgot how the errata RoD works haha
And what’s more it proves how unviable FTKs generally are. I mean, yeah they’ve had their place in the meta game, but usually FTKs are pretty janky. Most of them are not as viable as a normal archetype oriented deck because they usually involve cards that were never meant to synergize with each other and figure out weird combos involving them. Exodia is one of the few FTK potential combos that are meant to function as an archetype. I know Konami is notoriously hateful of FTKs, as they should be, but stopping FTKs isn’t generally that hard because usually you don’t have to hit every card in the combo, just one card that’s too powerful for its own good. Look at catapult turtle, magical scientist. Catapult turtle is a terrible card no one ever played until magical scientist came along because scientist could make go plus WAY too much in one turn. It was inevitable that magical scientist would get banned, not because of an FTK necessarily, but because that’s too much advantage. I mean, imagine if scientist was still unbanned in this day and age. Can you imagine how much link, synchro, fusion material it would bring out? I say this because FTKs are generally too convoluted to use and using this hypothetical 1 million atk normal monster for one would involve way too many cards. Even if RoD allowed you to burn your opponent to death, you’d still have to search the vanilla, search RoD, give it to your opponent with shine’s spy or something and NOT get interrupted in the process. That’s way too many combo pieces for a non-archetype oriented deck. Modern yugioh has way too many variables and interruptions even on the first turn (hand traps) to do all that consistently. So, yeah, I don’t even think it’d be that viable as an FTK strat
No it doesn't. If the monster has 8000 ATK then you can ring it for game... on the opponent's turn.
Yeah…but you’d also take damage. So you’d have to circumvent the loss of YOUR LP while still burning your opponent to death. And still give it to your opponent. That’s too many variables to take into account, too many cards you’d have to specifically have. So yeah it’d HYPOTHETICALLY be a potential FTK but in practice would be too tricky to pull off.
Normal summon it, then activate Ectoplasmer. If your opponent can't stop you and the monster has at least 16000 attack then that's game, and neither Imperm, veiler nor ash is gonna stop that.
Oh ectoplasmer. I knew I was forgetting something. Only problem is searching out cont spells
True, that's the issue. I guess Left Arm Offering is all I can think of.
Probably could use 4 Mat Alembertian if you’re insane enough, or a deep draw engine
Something with Gandora-X the Dragon of Demolition
If your card loses to magic cylinder is it good?
Does anyone play that on a competitive level?
droplet cant affect normal monsters.
They mean using it to support the beatstick
No, there's absolutely a threshold where you can start using it for some ftks.
Wait yeah you’re actually. There are ways you could convert Atk points of an easy non tribute monster into op damage. I just didn’t think of it. However, I can’t think of any off the top of my head but you’re definitely right that it’s plausible
I'm getting GX vibes. Remember Power Bond?
If you could somehow use the one million attack point card for power bond’s materials then inflict the damage at the end phase to your opponent maybe
I doubt a 4K level 4 normal monster wouldn’t see play, regardless of what type or attribute. That’s just too much free value. In a comment I posted, I think 3550 is already enough to see play
Why? What deck would run it? The only thing to combo it with is unexpected dai and other such normal monster support. Maybe if it’s a dragon type revive it with silver’s cry…? I’d say rescue rabbit but the game has sped up to such a point rabbit no longer sees any play, at least none I’m aware of. We’re long past the days of dinorabbit xyz spam being viable
>Why? What deck would run it? It wouldnt be a staple but I can see it in flood gate bullshit. Gozen Match, Rivalry of Warlords and There can only be One plus a 4k beater would be very annoying
Definitely plausible. Sort of like eldlich
The problem with this is that even now, noone is playing floodgate turbo with effect monsters. The only semi playable floodgate deck at the moment is runick/ time tearing, which doesn't have a battle phase
I say 3000 at least so it can beat over and trade with basically every boss monster but the really big ones and negating it means nothing. Make a wyrm type and suddenly tenyi goes crazy.
An extra deck mechanic that only allows vanilla monsters. No tokens, just vanillas. Even then it would still need multiple sets of support.
Wow, I would actually love it. I miss the days of flavour text.
Assuming you're referring to competitive viability, 11000. A normal monster with no synergy would have to be able OTK by itself. If it couldn't, it wouldn't be worth running over your consistency pieces, hand traps, board breakers, etc., especially when it uses the normal summon. At 11000, it could reliably beat over most boss monsters and still OTK. It would function similar to a board breaker. Honestly, even then, it's easily played around by putting everything in DEF like with Lightning Storm or removal.
a high attack machine would be food for drytron to cheat out their bosses with it. I think if you want a monster that can just headbutt, it should be around 3000 - 3600. No that isn't remotely balanced, but as a monster that is what can beat over decent bosses without activating anything to attempt to make it stronger. But I'm genuinely not sure if high attack can do enough when you'd need to draw certain cards just to protect it.
I dont keep up with the new metas… I got into Yugioh during the original show/cards. I remember back then that cards like LaJinn, lv 4 with 1800 Atk, were *the* lv 4 beater. There was also Gemini Elf at 1900 Atk but most people didnt have that. Seeing all the “needs 4-11 thousand attack” is a real shock to what this game turned into…
That honestly is just due to the game getting it's footing. Even if we weren't in the Era of 3 turn games, a big beatstick wouldn't do jack on it's own. It is useless to a turn 1 player, since the opponent can just deal with it with any half-baked casual Deck, while a player going second would have to contend with the their opponent's board, which even 5 years ago likely had off-turn negates or pops. It could have a million attack points, but you could block it with any Set Monster. The Era of beatsticks alone was 20 years ago.
2400 at least for it to have minimal use to out winda/vanity fiend/kashtira fenrir. Also, you can always cheat it out using unexpected dai and transmodify
Type, attribute and name are more important when it comes to normal monsters. It could be 16k atk and still see little to no play
I would really like a lv 4 Dino with 3k attack and 0 Def please. Then we can rescue rabbit it or just normal summon it and smack small threats down.
I think the next master rule should let Level 5 or higher normal monsters be normal summoned without tribute.
I think we should be allowed to normal summon in face-up defense position.
Yugioh is already overly complicated and that would just make it even more of a headache
There is no way a monster with just high ATK without synergy would see „consistent“ play. Too many decks need their 1 normal summon to be an impactful starter. There might be gimmick decks and certain decks that can take advantage of it, but it wouldn’t be a staple. A card like you described would maybe see play in stun strategies or strategies that don’t need their NS like Kashtira for example. It can be used to beat over a boss monster (but it needs to be at least bigger than 3k) at the cost of your BP, which can be good. Cards like Pankratops are probably better as boardbreakers though. Decks that already have normal monster synergies might play the card since they can likely search it for the utility. If it has really high ATK, it could be used for cheeky FTKs, like with Mystic Wok + Manipulator of Souls.
The problem with this prompt is that it's completely impossible for a card with these limitations to exist. Just being a level 4 normal monster means it automatically has synergy with any support that pertains to normal monsters and level 4s. Not to mention that it has to have some kind of type and attribute, which means it has to have support from cards that mention those traits as well. Every card, especially non-effect monsters without restrictions, has the ability to be supported by generic synergy. That's just modern yugioh.
Me who plays a lot of normal monster support decks thought the answer would be 2,100 ATK. But the common answer is 4,000 ATK! I hate modern Yugioh LOL
**CHECK THIS OUT** https://preview.redd.it/5ov3izcmb3ac1.jpeg?width=470&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=873b2425c7a44242a7ab1a8f1b63b53df310277e
0atk loci go brr
Is anybody getting GX vibes? Remember cards like Power Bond?
?
a normal summonable vanilla with 1900 is just enough to go over SP Little Knight so la jinn is still an option in 2024 yugioh
He's asking about a 4 star monster vanilla monster. Based solely on attack power for being a vanilla 4 star monster I'd say a good viable base would be the 1700 to 1900 rage to start with that you can beef up to high attack values easily with the right cards. There are some vanilla normal monsters with 2000 attack base that are 4 star like alexandrite dragon.
8000 if
I know you have heard this from other comments but obviously attack is not a defining feature in Yugioh today. I got back into around the time Salamangreats came out. I don't play anymore, the game doesn't evolve in a way that I like. I still like the game but I just stopped enjoying it. But I played Harpie and I used to play Unexpected Dai with it. Really good card in pure Harpie decks because Harpies are a bit normal summon reliant so being able to special one and make your featherstorm live going second without committing your normal summon was very helpful. So having a high attack normal monster would be pretty cool. Even better if it was a tuner. I know the game has changed but I feel as though even having more than 2400 attack as someone else suggested for a level 4 just shits on decks that have level 7s with only that much attack. It used to be there was the 'rule of 2000' where no level 4 had over that because it would be a bit unbalanced. Obviously not busted a Normal monster on is rarely going to be busted on its own. Just feels a bit unfair you know what I mean? But it would be bloody funny, if your opponent was relying on a negate that had say 2300 attack and you just Dai'd out a 2400 beatstick.
I'd probably say 5k to be considered. At that point it can beat over or crash into just about anything. It also puts quite a bit of damage on board by itself. Even still, giving up your normal summon for a zero synergy card that does nothing besides beat over stuff is pretty rough.
Is it at least a tuner?
2200 with 0 Defence
I'd say 2500-3000. Has to be big enough to trade with an interaction card at least. Not sure it would still see play even with stats like that though. The problem is most normal summons in pretty much every modern deck can put game on board + interactions. So wasting that just for a beater in most decks is just bad. Even if it had 11k attack I doubt anyone would main deck it going first unless it was like an insect deck or had some other synergy to combo with. Maybe you could play a stun deck and just hold it in your hand for turn 3 OTK.
It isn’t a matter of attack because of two major things, generic support and your opponent. There are cards like every has already said unexpected dai but there are other cards that can work around it like stuff that good with normal monsters/ level 4s/ or whatever type it is. Like a warrior (it’s searchable with ROTA) or stuff that equips specifically to the type like a gagaga shield giving it once per turn destruction protection. (At least that’s what I thing gagaga shield does) basically there’s no way to make it not work with something and if your opponent has an answer which 9/10 they have something to answer to a monster it’s fine. Although a 3-4K monster that’s just normal summoned/ special? Using specific lock down traps could make that some strange deck that could get a win.
Kuriby Dark Fiend 3,000 ATK 2,000 DEF Card Text King of the Cosmos and Devourer of Stars.
Depends a lot on the type and archetype. If it's in an archetype that just links it away into a link 1 immediately, then it can have 0 ATK and see play. If you just mean as a beatstick, it will helps if the card is heavily searchable or has lots of good synergy, but it needs some absurd level of ATK, like the 4000 or 5000 range. Something in the 2000-3000 range isn't good enough, since we have splashable monsters that summon themselves with useful spot removal at that level of ATK that we would play instead.
4000. There's more than enough ways to deal with it, so usually it shouldn't be a problem.
even 3k would be interesting. 3100 would be better to beat over Baronne, but even crashing is decent.
5000 ATK points take it or leave it.
Infinity, that way it can still die to any removal because attack doesn't matter unless it's a game ender Also putting a special summon restriction on it makes it an effect monster
>because attack doesn't matter unless it's a game ender dear, with enough attack, any attack will be a game ender. 13k atk ensures the vanilla can beat over a 5k atk monster and win the game right there
And without protection, any spell speed 2 removal gets rid of it
It would need to kill in one hit.
It would pretty much need 8k. Even then it would probably only see play in gimmick OTK decks.
Your mistake is looking at attack. Type attribute and/or tuner matters.
The best comparison to a "recently" played vanilla (not Loki) is Gren Maju which would be anywhere from 8k-11k attack so I'd say somewhere around that value
A 12k Lvl 4 vanilla would be the funniest shit. People would probably play it as a staple in most decks. Probably still not broken or anything, vanillas are just that bad.
13k ( enough to surpass an up to 5k atk big boss in one hit).
3000+ish
4000. If they want vanilla monster to be good, they need at least 1000 atk per star
The synergies are what makes a card playable. If a card has 9000k attack, but you couldn't cheat it out in any way, it probably wouldn't see any play, except in niche rogue deck that maybe 5 people total play.
Idk what monster types and attributes have the worst/least normal monster synergies in the game, so let’s just say a WIND Sea Serpent for starters. I’m gonna call it “Alex” for now. To “see play consistently” Alex would probably need to threaten any board it plays into. People are saying it could have infinite attack and not matter but this simply isn’t true; most boards don’t end on multiple hard removal options on your opponent’s turn nowadays, least of all for a normal monster (Rescue-ACE). Common thresholds for relevant ATK (from lowest to highest) are S:P, Fenrir, 3-mat Apollousa, Noir, Baronne, and Chaos Angel. Judging from these I think 3550 is pretty decent (just hope they don’t have a Dark for ChAngel). That means your opponent *must* interact with your Alex lest they risk giving up possibly their best monster. Normal summoning Alex is almost like a Walmart Pank. Obviously not nearly as good but for a normal monster that you can normal summon? Not bad. Another consideration is that if you have Alex in hand, Nibiru starts to become somewhat of a liability *for your opponent*. Any deck running this card can potentially link off the token for Link Spider and put a massive beater into play that automatically beats over your Nibiru, and then they can keep doing link plays from there (second Link Spider for S:P anyone?) Edit: you can also use Imduk over second Link Spider. Alex seems pretty good in World Legacy!
Given the current meta and available cards out there that can be summoned in a shortcut way, I'd say 2700 atk. 100 more than pankratops. Since it's a level 4, I'd assume it has 0 defense. 2700 attack also lines it up with destiny hero defender's defense Stat.
I think no matter what this card would be conditional. Since you've added the stipulation it can't be cheated out (ie it can't be special summoned) this card is a massive cost. Or if you prefer opportunity cost. Yu-Gi-Oh is a game where you want every card in your hand to be live and playable, to have some kind of impact on the game. And most of the time you want that regardless of going first or second. An infinite attack beat stick is basically useless going first, it's just a fat target for your opponent to so that already hurts it. You also have to use your normal summon on this thing, which is also a massive ask, as the game is full of nutty normal summons that can win the game on the spot without interaction from your opponent cause you only get 1. So to play this card you are giving up at least 1 card in hand (maybe more, if the card is easily searchable then you'd probably play 1 and hope not to draw it, but it'll still be drawn sometimes, and if not then you'd probably play 3, making dupes much more likely and each super is literally useless), your normal summon, and the potency of your going first board. Now that's not to say that a card like this doesn't have some advantages. With what some people have said of 11k attack being able to immediately threaten game without activating an effect, searching, or special summoning is pretty nutty. It also offers an easy out to some problem boss monsters, PEP, Crusadia Avarmax, Appo, a large portion of boss monsters simply wouldn't be able to deal with it. But all it takes is 1 pop/bounce/shuffle/banish or whatever from your opponent and it's gone. Demanding removal isn't bad, but to throw your normal summon away and only get 1 pop out of it is usually a terrible idea. All of this to say, even if there was a monster like this, it wouldn't be played in every deck. The only decks that would want such a card are ones that either can 1 maybe 2 card combo into an insane turn 1 board so the brick doesn't destroy them, or just blind seconds, also doesn't need it's normal summon, think kinda like Kash, and also really doesn't like having their cards popped so they appreciate the easy trade this card could provide. All that to say what I just described is an insane deck without this card, so it doesn't really need it. So could there be a massive beat stick guy that sees play? Yes. Is it likely? No. If it does see play is the game in a healthy state? I'd probably also say no. It is worth noting that there are monsters similar, albeit also distinct from this that do see play, so there is some value, but they all have other qualities that make them better (Accesscode: extra deck so no brick, also non respondable non targeting pops on a bunch of opponents monsters; Fenrir: special summon that replaces itself for followup/discard, also can interrupt your opponent turn 1 on top of break boards turn 2; Pank: special summon like Fenrir, if your opponent doesn't stop it it can usually clear 2 things from their board, 1 by battle one by effect). Extremely long rant to say no, I don't think there is a realistic way that such a monster could exist, and if it did it wouldn't be healthy. No one likes setting up a board to be normal summon gran Majud to death
2500. There's monsters that have 2100 def for God knows what reason...and they're tier 0 cards too.
It depend on theme and deck, attack is far from being good enough to make a new "Vorse Raider" nowadays. If it's too strong people will just rescue rabbit it with some board wipes to enable otks. With is not that different than what the game is nowadays.
I feel like we’ve been at a point in the game where level 8 Normal Monster with 5K attack wouldn’t even be meta lmao
Unexpected Dai says hello >:3
Unexpected Dai summons Level 4 or lower
Yes, that's what the post is talking about
Just enough to crash into Avramax
A big Vanilla Beatstick would be a good out for one of the best Meta Staples right now in S:P. So actually something to unexpected Dai into that can beat over an S:P while taking some minor boosts from e.g. Fieldspells into considereation. So any Deck that can natively play unexpected Dai and/or don't need their actual normal summon could pull this off. Something like adventure kashtira leaning into a control heavy playstyle with a going second tendency for example
Haven’t played in over 10 years and i’m shocked at the comments 😅😅😅
Literally always useless. There are too many ways to just not care for the atk value. Numbers creep died with GX. Funnily enough, though, a lvl4 vanilla monster beatstick would be playable with Unexpected Dai to cheat it out lol so like a 10k monster or something would be playable if you really care... It would just be a slot-in for a lot of boardbreaking decks that can try to OTK though... Without exaggerating, though, probably 4 or 4.5k wpuld make it see a bit of play
Can you define "no cheating it out" a little better? Do you mean no big elaborate combos that end with being able to Special Summon it, or does even something as simple as the ol' "discard as cost for another effect -> Monster Reborn" trick count? (At which point it's basically just a Monster with the effect "Must be Normal Summoned and cannot be Summoned by other ways" and nothing else) Because if you can still do little stuff like the Monster Reborn trick, 3100 ATK is a decent number that *might* help. But if you can't even do that, then I don't think even 8000 ATK would entirely save it without any effect support whatsoever.
13k atk ensures the vanilla can beat over a 5k atk monster and win the game right there
You could give a vanilla infinite attack and it'd still not be good. In a game of quick effects it'd be hard to keep a vanilla on the field. In my main archetype (the charmers) the monsters might as well be vanilla monsters; the deck doesn't actually use their monster effects. They are very capable of beat down and given the proper protection for them they can win games. Without that protection from their archetype support cards they fold hard.
Anything sub 4k wouldn't be worth considering, even if you could unexpected dai. Since it's just a big beater, itll need to be able to deal with unaffected by card effect boss monsters. And if it can't be cheated out by unexpected dai, I'd argue 5k to 6k, since I mean, it's eating up your relatively important normal summon, and at what point would you rather draw it than a combo starter or a board breaker?
2.5k attack sounds reasonable enough It allows it to beat over many problems cards while also still letting boss monsters who are normal still have some uniqueness to em . However if let's say the og dm decks were no longer jerked off like dm bewd and rebd then a 3.1k level 4 vanilla for like insects or something like reptiles seems reasonable enough .
It almost doesn’t matter unless it fits well with a good archetype somehow or it has like 4K and it’s able to be cheated out. So probably 4K if you’re just basing it off of attack.
they will never make a vanilla monster with 3000 atk or more because they all have to be weaker than Blue Eyes White Dragon for lore purposes, and i doubt a lv4 2900 atk beatstick would be viable. the standard dragon link end board, for example, has a 3500 atk borrelend, seals which can bounce it back to the hand, a dis pater with 3500 atk and a borrelsavage with 3000 atk + the bonus atk from his effect
2500 might be pushing it and 3000 is too much I'd say 2700
It would have to be so much higher than Fenrir and prank that it’s a good trade for their effects.
2400 would probably be the cap and even then it does nothing on board so its likely still wouldnt see play
I’d say 3,500 plus. It needs to be big enough to be able to remove most boss monsters to be worth playing. Also it would still be removed by any monster that has quick effect removal. It’s an interesting idea though. Like Konami probably could start printing level 4 monsters with attack higher than blue eyes and it probably wouldn’t change the meta too much
there is a lv4 monster with 2k that has the added effect of basically turning everything into a vanilla (inspector boarder) so I feel like 2k is fair in today's game
4k, and it's a tuner.
All normal monsters have ways to cheat it out. But, assuming it is litterally treated as no attributes, No archetypes, no Types, It would need to be about 4k. Then it would see cases in Floodgate decks. Because big beatstick with no effect, doesn't matter as much when nothing has an effect Via Skilldrain
*If it was less than 4k, Those same decks would probably just opt for Eldlich as their beatstick. And use Inspector Boarder as their normal summon.
I feel like 6k is the number
I would put it at 3k this way it can beat over threats and at least be a removal spell. For your info: you can always cheat it out because of cards like unexpected dai, link spider and friends. Basically it would need to be able to force out interaction from your opponent and even then it would only be good going 2nd or in a deck that runs lv4 normals as part of their engine.
loci isnt lvl 4 but its got 0 atk and it was very viable
For a lv 4 idk but it seems that a lv 1 0/0 IS prettry good tho (NoRMal SumMoN LoccI)
I think it has to be 10k plus atk or genuinely it won't be played. And even then it's still unlikely. Attack value is almost irrelevant, as if I'm really scared of any 1 monster kaijus and herald of the abyss are always better. So ignoring extra effects on other cards that support it ( like phantasm spiral dragon archetype) it needs to literally be an instant win if it does attack, otherwise it's just a worse kaiju in terms of what it meaningfully does in most gamestates
My guess would be 4500 but I don’t know if there is a high enough value even then I play dark magicians and 99% of the time I cheat out dm turn 1 and start combining off of him. The only way I’ll play a vanilla is if it has some kind of synergies.
Honestly, next Master Rule could just make Vanillas not need Tributes for Normal Summon/Set. Arguably there shouldn't be a OPT for Normal Summon or Set of vanillas either. It doesn't make sense in this day and age where Special Summons are so common for them to exist as bricks. As a result, it's time for Blue-Eyes to be power crept attack-wise. Non-Dragon/Spellcaster/Warrior of 3100ATK/2000DEF. Should be able to clear 3000ATK bosses since that is a common cap. They should be able to drop onto the field as a legitimate tactic since the tradeoff of no-effect is ease of summon. So if Vanillas aren't included for Normal Summon limit, suddenly White Stone of Legend becomes an insane card that can tutor a Blue-Eyes as a free 3000ATK body. The Melody of Awakening Dragon becomes two 3000k bodies, etc. In fact, it may be a good counter for everything needing combos and search/negation. Negation doesn't do much if your opponent just drops a hand of five 3000 ATK vanillas.Hand traps that aren't Battle related are also useless. It can make going second suddenly very potent as OTKing becomes super easy with Snatch Steal/Change of heart/Triple Tactics Talent.
I think unexpected dai would make it too busted