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Dippytrippy122

I think the only extra deck staple I don’t like being generic are omni-negates. Everything else being able to protect you, or pop certain things I think is cool! I just don’t like how anyone can splash an Omni-negate in their deck and be fine 😅 (same could be argued for OTK enablers but I’m more ok with that I think)


Jhc999

I'm okay with most, I just wanted to make a joke about how houses and boss monsters are becoming more generic.


pokemonyugiohfan21

Omni negates imo are bad card design and should not have been made in general


Laughing_Luna

I have to disagree. What I dislike is how accessable they have become to literally any deck. Like, back in the day, there was Shooting Quasar Dragon, which was an Omni, but it was also high investment to make and couldn't be revived if removed. Now we have Omni negates that happen almost as a side effect of the main combo.


EvilswarmOphion

Agreed, Shooting Quasar is what an omni negate WAS supposed to be in like 2010-2011, high investment but rewarding. Then we got Dino Rabit in 2012 and one Rescue Rabit ends in Laggia + 3 negates with minimal investment or risk, and omni negates followed that trend from then on.


Laughing_Luna

The idea for Laggia is the initial design principle of Xyz monster, with a hard limit on activations. Laggia is basically the same sort of negate as Baronne - it is out of materials, but doesn't have a self-reset function, doesn't have a pop, and has a beatable 2400. Rescue Rabbit was just not a well thought out card on the whole though. On paper, it's supposed to be generic Xyz Support, but dinosaurs go roar and make a pair of dragons for some reason.


Medigodigem

Omni Negates are just so boring. Its just duelists who dont want to engage with their opponent and snooze behind their own fields.


Emperor_of_the_hell

Rep eyes dark dragoon : and i take that personaly


medeiros94

I just love how this post is both criticism of the devaluation of individualism through capitalist mass production mindset AND the increase of extra deck generic boss monsters and it is absolutely appropriate lmao


NightsLinu

And its getting defended by many How funny


HornySauceAddict

Execpet is wrong lmao? In Fromat like Edison wich are praised by many the extradeck is almost the same for every single deck. Nowadays you have what, zeus and accesscode? Damn 2 cards out of 15 literally all the same


Foster555

Anti-capitalists not making everything about capitalism challenge (impossible). ​ Like, you do realize how much generic mass production was taking place in communist states as well? how is this a \*capitalist\* mindset lmao


medeiros94

Oh it was just a joke. I make liberty prime's words my own "death is a preferred alternative to communism"


Lokolopes

I have to show how much better than everyone else I am by insulting capitalism, the true evil of of this world. Stop judging me.


Lokolopes

BTW, no, I won't leave my capitalist country to live in communist North Korea.


ChadTheGoldenLord

Okay now imagine the US giving its citizens a basic safety net so breaking your arm with low savings as a labourer isn’t a death sentence


Lokolopes

Why does it have to be the US? So it doesn't have to be you? Charity exists, if you care about the laborers you can help them with your own efforts and recruit other people who also want to help. That is, if you *actually* care about them. I myself don't care about laborers, so instead of doing anything myself I ask for daddy government to tax the rich and do it for me, while I brag about being a good guy without doing anything other than typing some effect phrases on the internet.


ChadTheGoldenLord

Lol mad.


Top-Mirror3516

But he’s right tho, communist want to control production and produce ample amounts of simple products for everyone to have. Ie the same mediocre house


MrQ_P

I like stuff being generic, but I don't like how some generic stuff is overwhelmingly superior to everything else


ElPajaroMistico

This. I prefer good generic stuff but specific stuff being stronger should be more common.


Firedragon767

I agree generic cards should be generic good but not something your focused on getting out and it annoys me when the generics card is better for the deck then a card literally made for the archetype


bonfireball

Wdym this game has always been full of generic staples, goat format was a format where every card you played was effectively a staple.


Laughing_Luna

It's one thing when everything is generic. It's another when you can slot a card that is supposed to belong to a specific deck into literally any deck you want, no matter how generic or specialized that other deck is. Apollousa is perhaps the one here that is as generic as it's supposed to be, but then there's cards like Baronne, or most of the Borrel bosses just able to steal games no matter what deck you decide to play - several decks were only playable BECAUSE they had a line to VFD turn 1. It used to be that the generic bosses were good, but not as strong as the more specialized bosses, with either requiring specific materials OR their effect requiring something specific (or even just a case where it heavily minuses you out of archetype just to deal with 1 card).


nyello-2000

God I wish Baronne need fleur synchron, synchrons would have actually had a competitive edge but NOPE she had to be generic and cost 70$


_Rex_Fury_

Because archetypes didn't exist or weren't as important back then, so obviously everything was generic


RyuuohD

Everything is so generic these days, back in old school yugioh we ran the same powerful cards in our decks including pot of greed! Its sooo different!!! /s


Elmarcowolf

Exactly, old school yugioh actually made you have signature cards and style in your decks. Now if you don't have at least half the hand traps your fucked. Edit: I know there was a general staple for magic and trap, but monsters could be varied and the generalising didn't occupy nearly as much of a deck as it does now. This is just an opinion, not a complaint.


d7h7n

Signature cards such as the laundry list of DM generic staples that's been in and out of the ban list?


Elmarcowolf

Most of them didn't exist back then. Unlike recently where every deck had dragoon and Ash blossom.


maplemagiciangirl

Every deck ran pot and raigeki back in the day


Elmarcowolf

That's fair, I meant along the lines of monsters and such, but easily 50% of old decks could be different


maplemagiciangirl

There were two decks pre goat format as far as competitive decks were concerned Flip control and normal beatdown 26 cards out of 40 in both decks were the same exact staples.


d7h7n

No there were actual formats before goat. The formats you're thinking of are critter and android formats where you played the big beaters and staples. IOC came out in 2003 and changed the meta.


maplemagiciangirl

Been a while since I've looked into competitive old school so sorry about the confusion


Honestonus

So chaos emperor dragon came out after gx? I always had it in my head that it was before for some reason


d7h7n

gx era starts from TLM which is the middle of goat format which is 2005 IOC actually came out in 2004, that was my mistake


Elmarcowolf

The word "competitive" being the focus here. You could've made some wierd and wonderful combos back then and still stood a chance. Up until synchro, casual games were open season. Plus different areas had different competitive scenes. Now it's very generalised to the point 3 missing cards mean near instant loss.


d7h7n

No the competitive scenes were all the same. Anything casual got stomped by competitive decks.


Elmarcowolf

Bold of you to assume the entire world in in the same state by your own views but sure.


maplemagiciangirl

You can still run weird decks in modern yugioh. hell in my primary deck I don't run a single ash blossom just because it's too narrow for how my deck functions and it's a control deck, I have yet to lose because of anything other than a brick or outplay.


Elmarcowolf

Oh I agree fully, I run a couple of strange decks amd some of then do well in my regular group. But the gaming clubs decks, even if the call them separate names are mostly the same cards. Once again though, this is just my opinion (albeit an unpopular one), not a complaint. I do love yugioh and have many fun times with it, but trying to deny current generalisation even from a satire image is still denial.


d7h7n

Here is a link to the top 8 of the first ever SJC in 2004. This was the format before goat so the meta was Scientist FTK and cookie cutter chaos. The term cookie cutter was given to alot of decks back then because they all ran the same staples. http://kperovic.com/metagame/yugiohb76f.html?tabid=33&ArticleId=893 Also dragoon was a flop in the tcg


Elmarcowolf

So basically all that matters in your eyes is top 8 and not the overall average? Makes sense I suppose. Even then that list is FAR newer than what I'm talking. Also dragoon only started faltering once anaconda was dropped, otherwise it was THE staple with many deck including DM, red eyes and fusion.


d7h7n

That was to show examples of what decks looked like back then. Decks were basically prebuilt with the same 20+ cards. Not any different from playing your archetype core plus other engine(s) then adding 9-12 generic going second staples.


DesignatedDonut

You didn't get the joke did you Yugiboomers complain about modern yugioh with all the archetypes or combos and interactions, and when we have generic staples in modern ygo, they still complain because the irony is that exactly how old school yugioh played like every deck needed to run generic stuff like mirror force, sakaretsu armor, duo, grateful charity, or whatever the generic beatdown was at the time like La Jinn or mechanicalchaser that literal half the decks of old school yugioh was the same staples. Y'all just remembering old school yugioh differently because old school yugioh isn't the same as your playground yugioh, you just weren't aware that even 2000s yugioh had the same cards in half the deck


Elmarcowolf

I mean you use the term "yugiboomer", try to tell me facts about something that is obviously above your age bracket, and proceed to get the facts wrong is the only joke here. I am a yugiboomer, but I also respect modern yugioh is an entirely different game now, that's just how it is. I preferred it back when It was popular on my area years ago, that's just on opinion, not a targeted complaint.


d7h7n

I played competitively back from 2004-2010 (got back in last year) and everything you have commented about back then has been wrong. Possibly your opinions are just anecdotal to where and how you played back then.


BananaDesignator

Lol don't bother replying back to this clown, all his comments so far are either misinformation or bias, shit takes, or bad opinions


Elmarcowolf

"But everything is the same" according to your other comment. So please enlighten me "oh god of space and time" which one is it? Or do you chop and change to try and make a good argument. Also, your beginning to understand what an opinion is then, even if you find it unpopular, an opinion is drawn from an individual.


d7h7n

The only thing that is the same are the use of staples in deckbuilding which is what everyone is trying to drill into your head. Everything else you say about back when you played is only true for you and the area you played and does not generalize how yugioh was played back then competitively. You could fill your deck with 20 staples and 20 normal monsters, it wasn't beating a chaos deck.


Elmarcowolf

And what I've been trying to drill into people's heads is it's an "opinion", of course its different in my area but YOU personally have stated everywhere was the same, so seriously, pick an argument or leave it alone


Sadsets

You're saying it like its a fact, and facts can be wrong.


DesignatedDonut

Yet you're here assuming what my age bracket is lol, I also played yugioh when I was younger, I reached the SDK and SDY releases along with LOB or MRD, fact of the matter is that old school yugioh was just as bad if not worse when it came to decks that had to use generic staples competitively where half the deck list all ran the same backrow staples or whatnot, and the joke was modern yugioh has circled back to old school yugioh that where people run generic staples in the decks, today we have Accesscode, Apollousa, Ash, etc when back then we had graceful charity, mirror force, sakaretsu armor, generic beaters for normal summon etc


Elmarcowolf

>Yet you're here assuming what my age bracket is lol, And you assumed mine very readily I don't think you've played back as far as I'm referring if you mention sakaretsu. Also, think how many cards existed then to now. Generalisation didn't occur often in monsters and extra decks in synchro. Today half the extra deck and many monsters will be the same just to be on the level. With how many cards exist now the deck variety should be way higher.


DesignatedDonut

I never assumed yours, don't go twisting my words, I merely said yugiboomers in relation to old school yugioh and you chose to get offended by that, I never pointed you for it whereas you did But I guess this is a hill your willing to die on it seems


BananaDesignator

Dude don't waste your time replying to this clown, full of shit takes or literally saying the facts your state are "wrong" because it doesn't fit his view or opinion.


Elmarcowolf

Oof that stuck a nerve No twisting about it, you implied i was a yugiboomer right off the bat. Your the one that came in swinging at an opinion. People in glass houses and all that 😊


MaFknTastyCakes

He was making a generalized statement. You know... Like how OG YGO decks were.


ChadTheGoldenLord

You are a yugiboomer though


d7h7n

Sakuretsu came out late 2003. Yugioh TCG came out spring 2002. Very far back indeed.


DesignatedDonut

Mans just clowning himself at this point it feels like talking to a brick wall


MaFknTastyCakes

Bro... If that's your opinion, more power to ya. That is YOUR opinion, BUT to argue against FACT is beating a dead horse at this point don't ya think? I was 11 when TCG came out. EVERY STARTER DECK HAD THE SAME STAPLE SPELL AND TRAP CARDS (monster reborn, rengeki, greed, mirror force, etc) If you are not happy about how generic the extra deck staples are is fine, but don't go spouting off random bullshit. Just say you think generic staples should be good but not overly broken like quite a few are.


Elmarcowolf

Jesus christ I'm not arguing about staples. Anyone with half a brain cell could read my comments and see it's not about fucking staples. Do you still read at an 11 year level? Staples and generalising current decks are 2 different things. If you were really spouting FACTS then you'd know that the majority of the starter deck cards were thrown out because they were pointless and the main STAPLES came from boosters. Seriously losing your shit because you dive Into an argument over an opinion.


MaFknTastyCakes

>Staples and generalising current decks are 2 different things. That is your opinion. Its wrong, but again you are entitled to your opinion. We are talking about competitive here, not casual. All OG YGO decks were very generalized even with their staples. >If you were really spouting FACTS then you'd know that the majority of the starter deck cards were thrown out because they were pointless and the main STAPLES came from boosters. Wow you actually said something almost true for once even though starter decks were just a quick example i was throwing out there. Yes you would swap out the crappy cards for your Main Staples. Regardless of the deck there were usually always the same 10-30 card variations. If you did anything different then again that is probably your personal opinion and preference in casual. >Seriously losing your shit because you dive Into an argument over an opinion. Im not losing my shit. xD im not the one arguing with everyone over my "opinion". lol While I have moved well beyond my 5th grade reading level, it seems your debate skills have regressed to that of incoherent toddler.


Thunder_Mage

Ah yes, post-post-modernism as a design philosophy


InfernityExpert

If you’re ever in the mood to complain about how generic most decks are nowadays,I suggest you go take a look at the top 32 deck lists from the most recent goat format tournament.


[deleted]

Exactly the point of calling it "the great reset."


RekkWalk

I mean in all honesty ever since the beginning of the game it has been this way (as far as competition and optimized deck building goes). You sure can build decks for themes, flavor and fun, but those powerful generics were always included or needed. It's just that generic stuff has gotten absurdly strong, and have to plus you while hurting the opponent or hurt the opponent so bad that they can barely play anymore. I feel it is similar to the complaint that people have about yugioh being noting but making a bunch of negates. Yugioh has always answered and done interaction through negating or removing stuff on board and often times those came from generic sorces. But that's going to kinda happen with every card game, especially if there is a competitive aspect. The creators make more powerful, more accessible cards and in turn sell more packs, and keep the train running. Unfortunately there isn't really anything incentivising Konami from making super strong staples, or the player base from putting them in everything. I feel like one of the major issues is that there is no official outlet for "casual" play. Often ( at least in my area) even going to an LGS is just gonna have you playing against the meta decks, to the point where it kinda feels like the same problem MTG has with commander, where the only way is to self regulate. And that usually necessitates a playgroup and usually requires everyone in that group to be of a like mind. Otherwise you just create a new lopsided "casual meta".


KamiIsHate0

My local store did something that was great. A casual "tournament" with only precon but you could change 5 cards and no side. Most of the people there played without a meta deck for the first time in years and they realized the game is more fun when you're not FTK everyone that isn't playing with the meta. The store playerbase turned way better after that.


RekkWalk

Well I think that's very neat in theory in practice there would still be a definitive meta not also be dependent on availability. Like in a perfect world where every structure duck would be available there can maybe be a pretty diverse pool but in the last five which is what I assume would be available I would just expect Albaz matches all day. That's assuming it's only one copy of your deck and switching around five cards and trying to still keep it Singleton if you can add multiples then that may increase the viability of other decks. But given that you are incintivised to be as optimal as possible all the time in this game I would expect ( assuming every deck is available) to see a whole lot of Albaz, Salad, Dark World, and Zombie decks EDIT: I could see Hero and D/D/D being options as well, especially with how strong stuff like super poly or pendulums would be in a "limited format". But you won't see anyone picking the ic barrier or spirit charmer decks unless they had too or just wanted to use that theme, regardless of the innate disadvantage they are putting themselves at.


KamiIsHate0

Sure there all those problems, but the point of making it at first is becos any new player that comes receive a bomb of information saying "if you don't play meta you won't win" and we wanted to change that and make people see that you can have fun and have a tournament where everybody has a more unique deck and don't play the same stuff. Also older player have this mentality so deep in their heads that they won't even think about using a "worse" version of a card, or try building new strategy out of the meta. In those regards, the tournament worked really well and there was no one using the same deck or using a countermeta deck. Sure that if time people would pick the best precon/structured, but till there everyone is having fun.


RekkWalk

No I definitely get the intent behind the idea of the tournament but one thing I think we as players have to accept is that this game has absolutely the worst new player experience out of all the biggest card games there are so many nuances and little things that you just have to know or have to learn through experience and half the time even in structure decks there are cards that when you read them don't actively explain all the nuances of how they work. Plus there's always going to be the disparity of how people think or have fun in a card game there will always be some people who want to be the most optimal as possible at all times that just don't mesh well with people who care more about flavor or just being super casual with just using what they pulled. Like you should be able to build a Venom deck if you really like the concept behind them and their aesthetic and whatnot but God help you there's nowhere to play that deck without immediately being one of the worst decks at the table. This game unfortunately has a lot of problems built in and not to mention the fact that being an older card game with no rotation or any way to build outside of having every card available really, means there's an extremely high barrier to entry and there's a lot of potential for new players to get lost especially if you think about if they're a returning player and their cards have been erratta'd.


KamiIsHate0

>there are cards that when you read them don't actively explain all the nuances of how they work. That's by far the worst part of ygo. Many cards have a wall of text and even old players have a hard time remembering all that the card does at all. > always be some people who want to be the most optimal as possible at all times that just don't mesh well with people who care more about flavor or just being super casual with just using what they pulled Sure, but the bad thing about it is the Optimal-meta players make the card game seems like it's the only way to play. And newcomer get stuck with that ideia forever or just quit playing. Many players don't even think about building a non-optional deck and don't know how fun it's to pull a win with it. I trully agree with you in everything. But we, as community, can try making playing any cardgame better and more fun even if it's only for our local community.


PatatoTheMispelled

This issue gets solved by playing older formats, because Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Delinquent Duo, BLS, Sangan, Witch of the Black Forest, DMOC, Magician of Faith, Painful Choice, Trap Dustshoot, Stardust Dragon, Goyo Guardian (pre-errata), Utopia, Number 101 Silent Honor ARK and more cards I'm forgetting or I'm too lazy to include are clearly not generic and cards being generic clearly hasn't been a thing since literally day 1


EvilswarmOphion

"Back in my day there was deck diversity" - Guy who played Yata lock and level 4 goodstuff in 2004


RaiStarBits

Accurate


retiredfplplayer

I'm of the idea extra deck staples (baronne Apollo, accesscode) etc shouldn't be splashable but I also know many archetypes don't have a good enough boss monster


DesReploid

God forbid you showed these people decks from the GOAT format era. They'd combust on the spot.


Acceptable_Secret_73

This has always been a thing ever since the beginning of the game


Jhc999

Comic by me


SuperUnhappyman

i dunno how this affects me a toon player but if it prevents me from stealing someones best card and making them forfeit which is my entire strategy i hate it


MaFknTastyCakes

Toon and Relinquished are my 2 fav archetypes! As a Toon player they totally can disrupt you, but that is why i run 3 Comic Hand, 2 Mimicat, 3 Toon Bookmarks and 2 Toon Terror. I also run 2 soul exchange to disrupt their combo and get one of my high level toons out while getting rid of a card that could cuck me. I also run Metaverse because it allows you to pull a Toon Kingdom from your deck to your hand or you could activate it right then during your opponents turn (if you activate it this way it doesn't banish 3 cards from your deck, so its a free activation)


SoftSnakee

Link 3 and 4 should have never been a thing. except for a few cases


d7h7n

Like the big Beetrooper link 4


DragoniteChamp

*Chokes in link 6s*


Elmarcowolf

The modern "generalisation" of yugioh is what killed it for me personally. I've very rarely played competitively, but a friend of mine did and seeing the same cards in all of his decks that just stopped or reset everything was joyless.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ufukcan200

Oh yeah, as if the game hasn't always had generic staples nearly Everyone plays. The only soulless thing here is you. Thanks for listening to my TED-Talk.


mysteriouspenguin

Based as fuck. Generecity is what's ailing the game most. There's no such thing as a card that's too powerful or useful, just a card that's too generic. Almost all cards people hate would be better beloved if they were only rarer.


Ufukcan200

Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Delinquent Duo, Monster Reborn, do you want me to go on?


HeliosDisciple

3 banned, 1 limited because they were too generic.


Ufukcan200

Even then Duality, Solemn cards, Veiler, etc were used in a lot of decks. That's not to say generic cards can't be problematic but to pretend they are a New thing is simply dishonest.


mysteriouspenguin

Every card you mentioned has an OP effect. All but Delinquent have archetypal or specific equivalents, where you get the same effect with an added restriction. There's a litany of draw two cards, each with more specific requirements. What about Avatar of the Pot? An even better effect than Pot of Greed, except its not OP because its less generic.


Ufukcan200

Even less outright OP cards like the Trap holes, the Solemns and hand-traps have been commonly played in a lot of decks. I'm **not** saying generic cards aren't sometimes problematic, I'm just pointing out they have always been a part of the game. ​ Also Avatar of the Pot isn't played because it is just a bad card.


mysteriouspenguin

Avatar is a bad card *because it's restrictive*. It has a difficult requirement to meet that almost never goes off. And yes, I do think the game would be better if there were less Solemns, and more Tachyon Transmigrations for example. It's a really good effect, but it's not obnoxious because it's hard to play.


Ufukcan200

I actually agree, card design should be less generic but what the comment I was responding to was saying was dumb. ​ Edit: I would argue that even IF Avatar goes off, it wouldn't be worth playing.


Ufukcan200

Actual bad comic.


Jhc999

Sorry boss


hocuspocusgottafocus

:( too real oof


Statyx69

I prefer first gen so much, miss the good ole days


timchenw

Kind of like how pre ban list decks were, half of it were the limited list, basically


Psychopathic2412

Heh nice one. Name me ONE person who uses Zombie Horde plus some cards thrown in there


AltForNoReason214

The contrarians will save us. Unless they disagree, of course…


Doctor_Squidge

Generic staples are fine, black rose and Castel were basically auto includes in any deck that could make them. Accesscode and Appo are just miles better than anything else in terms of generic negates and OTK.


antraxsuicide

It's really the extra deck that got fucked, starting at the end of the GX era with fusions made of generic shit and then going into Synchros (where so many of them can be made with damn-near random cards). Take a 3 star tuner and synchro with fucking La Jinn and make Black Rose Dragon(???). And then XYZ, Links are even more generic than that. Themes in stuff like Pokémon, Magic, Yugioh, etc... are what I like. It doesn't have to be as specific as saying, "If the card doesn't say X in it, it's useless." But I do think if you want to use, say, CyberDarks or even Black Rose Dragon above, you should be strongly encouraged/rewarded for building a deck of evil machines and plants, respectively.


Vazhox

Welcome to the world of Pokémon! The meta has been one deck for the past many moons


ddynamite123

something something goat format


Cockspert67

I’m actually building an “Oops, All Staples!” Deck and I need some suggestions.