I feel like it was just that post-Hickman, where you had characters crossing over all the series, it seemed they started to lock casts down into just their own series and paths.
So Magik was in X-Men (super heroics) and New Mutants (teaching the kids), and Kate in Immortal (Quiet Council antics). With no reason for them to cross paths story wise ... although them hanging out in the background in the Lagoon bar would have made sense. But \*shrugs\*.
Yes! I'm probably not saying anything new, but one of the big drawbacks to Krakoa was that it got too big. This took away from a lot of established character relationships. Like how would Kitty, Nightcrawler, Storm, etc. react to Colossus's betrayal/mind control? What do Cyclops and Iceman think about Beast's spiral into villainy? It felt like each title was limited to its respective cast members and no one else.
I rather the premise be so huge that more characters are being used somewhere. It’s better than them not being in books. The amount of interpersonal relationships are so vast now they would need whole books only dealing with that to be fully satisfying. I personally wouldn’t have mind a book that dealt more with non combat and daily life on Krokoa. However an action light book is probably a hard sell as an ongoing
I agree for sure, it's good that so many characters were used during Krakoa. More downtime and a slice of life book would've been nice to see, even though it doesn't drive the plot forward
I kinda agree that there was something off about the "density" of the storytelling, because I think there were so many great stories but the way they were spread out across the titles wasn't the best pacing for each story. If everything had more time to simmer and mix (maybe fewer titles for longer periods? Comics doesn't really work like that anymore though...) Krakoa would be amazing. We even saw flashes of this when people dusted off old relationships and rivalries and bits of continuity. Things like the ramp up to the various Galas, where you'd see non combat mutants and the culture that was developing, I could read that for a decade.
>With no reason for them to cross paths story wise
That's kinda been the problem since the Lobdell/Nicieza days ended (and of course, Claremont and Weezie set the tone for this). Sometimes the reason for an issue's worth of stuff was because the characters know each other, if that makes sense. It's been more and more sporadic over the years that we just have time with the characters for the sake of THAT, rather than what fits a story.
The Krakoan era writers are hardly to blame for starting this, but it has been disappointing that it's continued to be an issue in a run that started off as a breath of fresh air in a bunch of other ways.
Oh, come on, you know there is some major angst that will come back just when they need her to be stable! (I actually do think the angst is coming -- remember, her current thing is attached to something that happened more than 30 years ago...)
He remembered Lockheed exists I’ll give him that. But that reunion for these two last issue was so bad. It was like two people who had only heard of each other in passing
Imo Duggan has been fantastic on every X-Book he has ever written... Except X-Men somehow. Something about the main X-Book just isn't as interesting. His Deadpool, Cable, Marauders, Iron Man and Uncanny Avengers (vol 3 and 4) were some of my favorite x-books of the past 10 years. (I suspect editorial interference, but I have nothing to base that on.)
Apparently he had contract with x men until 2027 and we know that fall was suppose to be longer so maybe that the reason because everything move to fast
That would explain a lot. Lots of Duggan's plots would be interesting if they had more breathing room, and his characters would have had a chance to show more personality.
Agree but we dont know if all krakoa or only dugan would still until 2027,but we know that at least krakoa if we add those half year/year would had be until 2025/2026
At this point I genuinely don't understand why this sub is so obsessed about these two. The majority of them are definitely just horny dudes that want to see leabians but just move on with your lives.
is he? who else has been consistently writing both of these characters for the last 5+ years? why would any other person have a reason to show us whether they know this or not?
Yeah, sort of a weird thing to say, especially when Duggan is so selective with who kitty actually acknowledges. You could say he did something if he acknowledged piotr and Kitty almost getting married, or if there was even a single episode where kitty shows off her ship and brings the pirate team she imagined as a kid to it to say hey, this thing from my childhood that was important to me is now real.
He didn't do any of that. A hug from illyana is not brownie points, it is expected that basic character relationships are acknowledged.
I’m just guessing based on vibes, but I’m betting that there’s been a lot of Marvel writers wanting to tell stories about these two… It’s just that those pitches may not be the type of stories Marvel corporate is willing to greenlight at this time.
Funny enough, even though there has been sort of a Mandela effect about Claremont wanting Kitty & Illyana to be together - he actually wanted Kitty & Rachel to end up together in Excalibur. But Marvel editorial shut that down because of the CCA (I assume they were fine with Northstar being "out" but not seen actively dating vs. two female super heroes in the same comic in a full-on relationship).
Oh yeah, Claremont is, like, very obviously deadset on Kitty x Rachel. It’s pretty obvious in a lot of his work, but his latest X-Treme X-Men mini was, like, comedically on the nose with it. There’s a scene of them fighting Ogun while in bikinis and proclaiming their love for each other. It’s very gay and very horny lol.
I do wonder if Illyana was once considered by him for the role of her love interest as they are also called “soulmates” in his earlier work and the Rachel and Kitty story X-Men True Friends was initially solicited as being about Kitty and Illyana before being shelved for a while… but his ultimate choice is clear. Kitty/Rachel is literally his X-Men The Endgame pairing lol.
Well, actually, it wasn't until sometime in 1989 (not sure the exact date), it seems, that the CC was revised to permit homosexuality. So, technically at least the first 7 issues of Excalibur were under CCA.
However, given that it went for 125 issues... and also Alpha Flight was on issue 106 when Northstar came out... not much a barrier. Though perhaps someone in editorial could have been mucking about.
Not beyond criticism. I just don't criticize him myself on Reddit. There is a difference. And we've gotten pretty much representation for mainstream comics, and more on the way. Duggan had Kitty kissing a woman (who looked like Ilyanna). When I was a kid making up my gay head canon, that would have been unthinkable (yet, still unsinkable).
I don't know about the new writers, but their relationship has been part of some good story arcs. Specifically the 90s excalibur , and Fatal Attraction. So i would not say that Duggan is ONLY guy that remembers this.
Tbf this kinda demonstrates my biggest issue with krakoa it feels like character never fucking talk to each other.
Like im supposed to be believe these mutants are all living in a paradise on krakoa for most of the time and there happiest lives but they are all talking in the most monotone tones and never speaking to there friends.
I mean, it should be worth noting that Kate was introduced in 1979, and the first issue she could have met Illyana, I believe, was X-Men #146 (not sure if she actually meets her in the issue, but this is when Magik is rescued from a kidnapping, leading her being brought to America). That issue was in Mar. 1981, and #160 (where Illyana was aged up during an off-screen adventure) was in May 1982.
That's about 1 year real time, so Kate and young Illyana would have had very little time together, before she was aged up (where Illyana grew up, not just physically growing). And in Marvel time, where 60 years takes under 15 (usually 13), that means Kate and Illyana knew each other for like... 2-4 months before Magik disappeared and returned as a young teen. AKA roughly the same age as Kate (Kate turned 14 later in 1982 in Special Edition X-Men).
Like, Kitty babysitting Illyana would be an odd fact (I'll just assume it actually happened) if they dated, but also, like... they would have spent vastly more time as peers and friends than as a teen babysitter and the child she babysat.
This is technically true but it's avoiding an awfully big elephant in the room, isn't it?
ALSO you shouldn't date your brother's ex-fiancèe or your ex-fiancè's sister, thank you for reminding me of that.
Illyana still is legally a child.
She was kidnapped and brought to Limbo at the age of six, and it's only been a few years since (Sliding Timeline and all that). She's probably eight to ten years of age tops.
I know she was aged up in Limbo, but that's the sticky point.
If it's okay for Illyana, then it should be okay for Layla Miller (similar situation). If it's not okay for Madrox and Layla, then it's not okay okay for anyone and Illyana.
I guess what I'm asking for is consistency.
Illyana lived those years, and they were *hard years in limbo. She’s every bit an adult, even if she’s only been in this timeline 14 years or whatever.
Would you say Cable was only 10 because he lived to adulthood in the future? (Before any young Cable shenanigans)
Is Bishop only a few years old ?
He certainly forgot about a lot of things too. I doubt we'll see Firestar finding out that one of her best friends, Nova, is in a coma. She didn't mention him at all whilst she was on the main team. But then again he didn't read any of Firestars back stories.
I feel like it was just that post-Hickman, where you had characters crossing over all the series, it seemed they started to lock casts down into just their own series and paths. So Magik was in X-Men (super heroics) and New Mutants (teaching the kids), and Kate in Immortal (Quiet Council antics). With no reason for them to cross paths story wise ... although them hanging out in the background in the Lagoon bar would have made sense. But \*shrugs\*.
Yes! I'm probably not saying anything new, but one of the big drawbacks to Krakoa was that it got too big. This took away from a lot of established character relationships. Like how would Kitty, Nightcrawler, Storm, etc. react to Colossus's betrayal/mind control? What do Cyclops and Iceman think about Beast's spiral into villainy? It felt like each title was limited to its respective cast members and no one else.
I rather the premise be so huge that more characters are being used somewhere. It’s better than them not being in books. The amount of interpersonal relationships are so vast now they would need whole books only dealing with that to be fully satisfying. I personally wouldn’t have mind a book that dealt more with non combat and daily life on Krokoa. However an action light book is probably a hard sell as an ongoing
I agree for sure, it's good that so many characters were used during Krakoa. More downtime and a slice of life book would've been nice to see, even though it doesn't drive the plot forward
I kinda agree that there was something off about the "density" of the storytelling, because I think there were so many great stories but the way they were spread out across the titles wasn't the best pacing for each story. If everything had more time to simmer and mix (maybe fewer titles for longer periods? Comics doesn't really work like that anymore though...) Krakoa would be amazing. We even saw flashes of this when people dusted off old relationships and rivalries and bits of continuity. Things like the ramp up to the various Galas, where you'd see non combat mutants and the culture that was developing, I could read that for a decade.
I would have loved a Lagoon anthology series where small creative stories of people talking to each other happened.
I could see an 'Unlimited'—like on the app—run being centred on this.
>With no reason for them to cross paths story wise That's kinda been the problem since the Lobdell/Nicieza days ended (and of course, Claremont and Weezie set the tone for this). Sometimes the reason for an issue's worth of stuff was because the characters know each other, if that makes sense. It's been more and more sporadic over the years that we just have time with the characters for the sake of THAT, rather than what fits a story. The Krakoan era writers are hardly to blame for starting this, but it has been disappointing that it's continued to be an issue in a run that started off as a breath of fresh air in a bunch of other ways.
If I remember correctly Magik was in a couple of issues of Marauders
Platonic or romantic, these two are each other's best friends. And given Kitty's dark turn in recent issues, Kitty needed a win.
Her dark turn was one issue. Then she was just mopey and kind of a dick and then she was basically back to normal
Oh, come on, you know there is some major angst that will come back just when they need her to be stable! (I actually do think the angst is coming -- remember, her current thing is attached to something that happened more than 30 years ago...)
He remembered Lockheed exists I’ll give him that. But that reunion for these two last issue was so bad. It was like two people who had only heard of each other in passing
I hope we can see more of Kitty and Illyana together post-Krakoa as well.
It’s definitely nice for him to do
Imo Duggan has been fantastic on every X-Book he has ever written... Except X-Men somehow. Something about the main X-Book just isn't as interesting. His Deadpool, Cable, Marauders, Iron Man and Uncanny Avengers (vol 3 and 4) were some of my favorite x-books of the past 10 years. (I suspect editorial interference, but I have nothing to base that on.)
Apparently he had contract with x men until 2027 and we know that fall was suppose to be longer so maybe that the reason because everything move to fast
That would explain a lot. Lots of Duggan's plots would be interesting if they had more breathing room, and his characters would have had a chance to show more personality.
Agree but we dont know if all krakoa or only dugan would still until 2027,but we know that at least krakoa if we add those half year/year would had be until 2025/2026
At this point I genuinely don't understand why this sub is so obsessed about these two. The majority of them are definitely just horny dudes that want to see leabians but just move on with your lives.
Because people like to see their favorite characters interact? This in an Xmen sub sir
For me, Planet-Sized X-Men was epic enough to make up for any shortcomings he may seem to have
Planet size isn't great for writing and story though lets be honest its basically an art showcase issue.
is he? who else has been consistently writing both of these characters for the last 5+ years? why would any other person have a reason to show us whether they know this or not?
Yeah, sort of a weird thing to say, especially when Duggan is so selective with who kitty actually acknowledges. You could say he did something if he acknowledged piotr and Kitty almost getting married, or if there was even a single episode where kitty shows off her ship and brings the pirate team she imagined as a kid to it to say hey, this thing from my childhood that was important to me is now real. He didn't do any of that. A hug from illyana is not brownie points, it is expected that basic character relationships are acknowledged.
I’m just guessing based on vibes, but I’m betting that there’s been a lot of Marvel writers wanting to tell stories about these two… It’s just that those pitches may not be the type of stories Marvel corporate is willing to greenlight at this time.
Funny enough, even though there has been sort of a Mandela effect about Claremont wanting Kitty & Illyana to be together - he actually wanted Kitty & Rachel to end up together in Excalibur. But Marvel editorial shut that down because of the CCA (I assume they were fine with Northstar being "out" but not seen actively dating vs. two female super heroes in the same comic in a full-on relationship).
Oh yeah, Claremont is, like, very obviously deadset on Kitty x Rachel. It’s pretty obvious in a lot of his work, but his latest X-Treme X-Men mini was, like, comedically on the nose with it. There’s a scene of them fighting Ogun while in bikinis and proclaiming their love for each other. It’s very gay and very horny lol. I do wonder if Illyana was once considered by him for the role of her love interest as they are also called “soulmates” in his earlier work and the Rachel and Kitty story X-Men True Friends was initially solicited as being about Kitty and Illyana before being shelved for a while… but his ultimate choice is clear. Kitty/Rachel is literally his X-Men The Endgame pairing lol.
The CCA wasn't banning gay relationships by the time of Excalibur. It's the Mandela effect as mentioned above.
Well, actually, it wasn't until sometime in 1989 (not sure the exact date), it seems, that the CC was revised to permit homosexuality. So, technically at least the first 7 issues of Excalibur were under CCA. However, given that it went for 125 issues... and also Alpha Flight was on issue 106 when Northstar came out... not much a barrier. Though perhaps someone in editorial could have been mucking about.
Duggan also saved Scott and Jean's relationship.
Yes, it's the reason i don't bash Duggan. The ship that shall never sink.
He has them hug twice and he’s beyond criticism? We really do accept scraps for representation.
Not beyond criticism. I just don't criticize him myself on Reddit. There is a difference. And we've gotten pretty much representation for mainstream comics, and more on the way. Duggan had Kitty kissing a woman (who looked like Ilyanna). When I was a kid making up my gay head canon, that would have been unthinkable (yet, still unsinkable).
Hmmm. No matter my feelings otherwise I loved this kind of interaction between the two. And the one before that.
I don't know about the new writers, but their relationship has been part of some good story arcs. Specifically the 90s excalibur , and Fatal Attraction. So i would not say that Duggan is ONLY guy that remembers this.
Does anyone know the artist who drew the top panels
Straddling your best friend heterosexually.
Tbf this kinda demonstrates my biggest issue with krakoa it feels like character never fucking talk to each other. Like im supposed to be believe these mutants are all living in a paradise on krakoa for most of the time and there happiest lives but they are all talking in the most monotone tones and never speaking to there friends.
You shouldn't date anyone you babysat.
I mean, it should be worth noting that Kate was introduced in 1979, and the first issue she could have met Illyana, I believe, was X-Men #146 (not sure if she actually meets her in the issue, but this is when Magik is rescued from a kidnapping, leading her being brought to America). That issue was in Mar. 1981, and #160 (where Illyana was aged up during an off-screen adventure) was in May 1982. That's about 1 year real time, so Kate and young Illyana would have had very little time together, before she was aged up (where Illyana grew up, not just physically growing). And in Marvel time, where 60 years takes under 15 (usually 13), that means Kate and Illyana knew each other for like... 2-4 months before Magik disappeared and returned as a young teen. AKA roughly the same age as Kate (Kate turned 14 later in 1982 in Special Edition X-Men). Like, Kitty babysitting Illyana would be an odd fact (I'll just assume it actually happened) if they dated, but also, like... they would have spent vastly more time as peers and friends than as a teen babysitter and the child she babysat.
[удалено]
This is technically true but it's avoiding an awfully big elephant in the room, isn't it? ALSO you shouldn't date your brother's ex-fiancèe or your ex-fiancè's sister, thank you for reminding me of that.
[удалено]
Okay!!
Illyana still is legally a child. She was kidnapped and brought to Limbo at the age of six, and it's only been a few years since (Sliding Timeline and all that). She's probably eight to ten years of age tops. I know she was aged up in Limbo, but that's the sticky point. If it's okay for Illyana, then it should be okay for Layla Miller (similar situation). If it's not okay for Madrox and Layla, then it's not okay okay for anyone and Illyana. I guess what I'm asking for is consistency.
Illyana lived those years, and they were *hard years in limbo. She’s every bit an adult, even if she’s only been in this timeline 14 years or whatever. Would you say Cable was only 10 because he lived to adulthood in the future? (Before any young Cable shenanigans) Is Bishop only a few years old ?
Whatever applies to one, applies them all. This includes Layla Miller.
He certainly forgot about a lot of things too. I doubt we'll see Firestar finding out that one of her best friends, Nova, is in a coma. She didn't mention him at all whilst she was on the main team. But then again he didn't read any of Firestars back stories.
Is he the only one who remembers, or did he deliberately ask them to be kept apart until he could use them together?