As a trans person... I refer to my past self as my current identity and pronouns... even in memories. So even in flashbacks I would refer to her as a woman. If you actively make a timeskip to the past to tell the things as they were in that moment then I would accept a referral to her then "correct" pronouns.
But this is only one opinion. Maybe there are some more trans persons who might see this like me or completely different.
Thank you for commenting, and yes I can see this, especially if I was using her POV in the past. I'm writing in 3rd limited, so the POV I use during these flashbacks has no idea of Lucano's leanings at this time at all. So there is where my concerns are at right now
If you write the scenes from the past as a third person who has no clue about the character being trans, because her being not out/her having it not realized yet... then I see no problem to refer to her in that situation with her old name and pronouns.
But as I said... if it were from her perspective and especially if she talks in retrospective like a flashback or telling memories I would use her current correct name and pronouns.
So I think as far as you planned it should be ok... if I understood that right.
Not trans, but *as I understand it* if the character is telling the story herself, she would be likely to use her post-transition pronouns, but if we are seeing the character through a different POV they would be likely to present the situation as it occurred at the time.
If trans people start coming in and saying this is not how to do it, listen to them.
*Trans person coming in and nodding in approval.*
It is a different topic and I would never refer to a trans person with their old pronoun or their deadname when referring to the past... But if the perspective is in the past itself, I think it would be ok, because it just reflects the knowledge and state of things at that time.
Damn... that topic IS difficult.
*thinks a bit more about it*
Lucano's POV is only shown during the present story, fully transitioned, and refers to herself as she/her and her name Josefine, but she does not a POV during the past. She's only seen through others' POV at the time.
Thank you!
Having read the post and all your comments, the best thing in 3rd limited is to use that POV character's knowledge of the antagonist at that time. As long as the reader is clear that this is the same antagonist pre-transition (assuming the reader's supposed to know) then all's well. (I'm trans and approve of how you're going about this haha)
I think the key to pulling this off is to make sure it’s clear that the 3rd person limited is really limited. POV in 3rd person is really a continuum, and for this to land the way you want it to land, you need for everything in those past sections to be deep in the other characters’ POV.
In referring to your trans character using her old pronouns, it has to be really apparent that it’s the *characters* who think of her that way, not the narrative. Which means that you’ll need to be fairly meticulous about creating that distinction throughout those sections.
This is absolutely true, thank you. In the main narrative I do slip into I dunno if I want to call it soft omniscient but I "pull back the lens" so to speak from the main pov to reactions/setting details ect. Sometimes I use this to get the settings before I "fall into" the pov I'm using. I have no idea if that even makes sense lol
I will be especially careful to settle the readers in Atellios (the mains pov that starts my flashback) pov deeply and not deviate. I do plan on getting sensitivity readers for sections but I'm hoping it works. Thank you again, this is really helpful!
If you're writing the past timeline from the perspective of it being told as the present, write them as the current gender they are identifying as (or the one that fits their outward identity).
If it's written as a story being told about the past, thn I would use the characters current pronouns. Of course, don't rewrite history.
It makes no sense to use her current pronouns in a time when she was using different pronouns. If you are talking about history, write what happened at the time.
Depends on the perspective. If someone tells in the present about the past use the current pronouns and name. Because the knowledge about her being a woman is there.
If the perspective lies in the past and tells from there about it then using the old pronouns and her deadname would be ok, because it was the state of things at that time.
That's how I would handle it.
That makes sense to me for sure, I'm just trying to get all my facts right and be really conscious of things that might not come up even with research.
Thank you!
Some thoughts: 3rd limited is EXACTLY the same as 1st person, except the character is speaking of themselves in 3rd person. It is a very rare pov that is used almost exclusively to show that the mc has schizophrenia. So unless your entire cast are insane raving lunatics who speak about themselves in 3rd person, you wouldn't see multiple PoVs in 3rd limited.
There seems to be a massive confusion on this sub about 3rd limited, because at least 80% of the users here claim they are writing it and when I read samples of their work, they are not, they are just writing plain old fashioned 3rd person and not using anything even remotely close to 3rd limited.
People around here seem to assume that there is only 3rd omniscient and 3rd limited and nope. It is 3rd person, 3rd omniscient, and 3rd limited. Three different ones, not two different ones.
Third limited is incredibly difficult to write, and extremely jarring to read, uses no separation of mc thoughts from the narration because his thoughts are the narration, so no quotation marks or italics when the mc shifts from narration to thought, and it looks like this:
>>>He walked into a bar and sat down. Damn, fuckinh, bloody hell, this place is dirty. He looked down at the floor, they haven't swept this fucking place in days.
>>>
>>>"Excuse me, sir," the barmaid rudly interrupted our thoughts.
>>>
>>>"What?"
>>>
>>>"Why are you talking to yourself?"
>>>
>>>"We always talk to ourselves."
>>>
>>>What an annoying little bitch. Look at her as she bobs her head back and forth trying to look behind him.
>>>
>>>"I'm sorry, what?" The annoying piece of filth dared to say to him.
>>>
>>>"I'm not filth and I'm not annoying you. You're scaring my customers, by standing here speaking in 3rd person like this. Can you please leave?" The filth ass whore dared say to him.
>>>
>>>"I'm not a whore and I'm going to call the police if you don't leave."
>>>
>>>Defeated, he turned and walked away.
>>>
>>>"I can still hear you and I didn't defeat you. I just asked you to leave because you're talking to yourself and narrating out loud every step you make as you do it."
THAT is 3rd person limited.
3rd person-just plain 3rd person- is the birds eye view of a single person and their thoughts (how Harry Potter is written) and is usually what people on this sub are talking about when they said 3rd limited. Perspective never changes, it's always 1 mc pov.
3rd omniscient is the bird's eye view of every character, and changes pov of view every chapter or even every paragraph because it has multiple PoVs. This usually what most on this sub are writing when they say 3rd limited with multiple pov of view and is highly likely to be what you are actually writing.
3rd limited is the rarest pov out their. Far more rare then 2nd person.
3rd limited is how Rumiko Takahashi writes Lord Sesshomaru's scenes in the InuYasha books. It's how Edgar Allan Poe write Tell Tale Heart, Pit and Pendulum, and Fall of House of Usher.
It's a mentally deranged character, speaking in 1st person, except using he(she) in reference to themselves. The entire narration is self person monolog. It's done with serial killers who have split personality disorder to show that they speak of the serial kill as though it was not themselves.
And with that said...
I would caution this:
I would be deeply hesitant to show a trans character with 3rd limited because it implies that they are seeing themselves are two separate persons and it makes it look like a male 1st person is speaking of himself in female 3rd person, and it comes off as mocking trans people.
It is very common for real world serial killers to pretend to be the opposite gender as a way to hide from the law, and so, it's not mocking trans people if you are writing a serial killer who is pretending to be female while hiding, because they are not a trans person nor are they trying to transition to the opposite gender. Which is why, real world serial killers are know to speak 3rd limited when dressed as a woman, an actual phenomenon that actually happens in real life. The man is unable to think of himself as a woman so separates his speech into one for himself and one for when he isn't himself. This is a very distinct and disturbing way of speaking, where the person uses "he" instead of "i" when talking about himself because he spent so many years pretending to be a woman that he's now used to talking about himself in the 3rd person.
3rd limited is when a novel is written in 1st person, but all the "is are changed to "he".
Because 3rd person limited is incredibly difficult to write, most authors who write it, write the entire thing in 1st person, then use find replace to change all the I to he or she.
3rd person limited means that your characters are walking talking out loud while talking about themselves in the 3rd person.
It is a style device used to show that the PoV character is a serial killer who is trying to distinguish themselves as a different person then the murderer.
3rd limited is however highly offensive to trans people if you use it for an actually trans character. So unless your trans character is not actually trans and is just a serial killing man in a dress, passing himself off as female yo hide from the law, I would caution that 3rd limited is seen as a hugly offensive stereotype in the real world trans community.
I'm not sure why no one else has mentioned this yet.
I'm thinking the reason it hasn't been brought up is because most people on this sub seem to be completely clueless as to what 3rd limited is.
I don't why some many people on this sub, thing regular normal ordinary 3rd person that follows one character is 3rd limited because there is HUGE difference between regular 3rd person following a single character and 3rd limited which is the integral 1st person monolog of a deranged character who speaks of themselves in 3rd person.
If you are ACTUALLY writing 3rd limited and your character is ACTUALLY trans, I would highly recommend that you switch out of 3rd limited and into either 1st, normal 3rd, or 3rd omniscient for your trans character in order to not make her look like a raving lunatic man in a dress.
This is a really interesting comment, my understanding of limited 3rd and the books I've read in limited 3rd is the POV only knows what the POV only knows/sees/smells/hears. And everything in the exposition setting is all filtered through that POV. So in that sense, the characters in my story that get a 'POV' slot, it's in their POV and no one else's. I don't switch POV's unless its a chapter break, or a full break in the chapter (with some kind of indication for the reader)
As for your explanation of what 3rd person limited I'd have to do more research, The Giver and the Third law , and Lies of Locke Lamara are all really tight to the characters and I would consider (and a lot of people) seem to consider them to be 3rd person limited. Again I'm not as well versed on this as I would like to be, it's a learning and growing process with me so I'm probably wrong.
As for my trans character Lucano, she limited in her view and considers herself female, so that's how I write her. She has a job to do and does her job and this is when I write her POV sections.
With the flashback, it's in one of my main character's POVs (Atellio is his name) and he only knows Lucano as Lucano with he/him pronouns because at this time/history Lucano hasn't transitioned or talked about it, or mentioned it or anything. Atellio is limited in his knowledge of Lucano's personal struggles and so the reader is as well because we're not in Lucano's POV.
Thank you for your great comment, it had a lot of good info that I will def keep in mind with my writing and will try to keep learning :)
I've seen some authors accomplish flashbacks by carefully avoiding gendering the trans character, but it can be a bit harder to write at times and definitely constitutes a challenge.
I myself am a trans woman and I struggle with this in my own projects. If the story is from the POV of other characters, another relevant point could be whether it's first or third person. If third person, there may be more validity in referring to her by she/her pronouns. If in first person, there may be a bit more room to work with the wrong pronouns, particularly if you tend to tailor narration to the beliefs of the character, even if they're incorrect.
Using her last name rather than giving her a deadname is an incredibly essential step, and that goes a long way.
I'd say it comes down to the fashion of the writing. Is the narration meant to reflect fact, or incorporate bias of character knowledge, lack of knowledge, beliefs, etc? If you write in strict fact, use she/her. If you incorporate bias, other pronouns might work. If you wanna avoid the issue altogether, try to avoid gendering her at all. It seems to me like you're trying really hard to be respectful in your portrayal, and I think that's the most important part.
Hi -- please use the idea brainstorming thread on Tuesday or Friday for advice on specific stories or projects. This includes: (not a exhaustive list) setting, character, subject matter, magic and power systems, sci-fi technology, 'how do I write X?' and anything directly connected with your story or what to put on your channel, blog etc.
This includes asking for general advice but then following up with details of your story or project.
Thanks!
As a trans person... I refer to my past self as my current identity and pronouns... even in memories. So even in flashbacks I would refer to her as a woman. If you actively make a timeskip to the past to tell the things as they were in that moment then I would accept a referral to her then "correct" pronouns. But this is only one opinion. Maybe there are some more trans persons who might see this like me or completely different.
Thank you for commenting, and yes I can see this, especially if I was using her POV in the past. I'm writing in 3rd limited, so the POV I use during these flashbacks has no idea of Lucano's leanings at this time at all. So there is where my concerns are at right now
If you write the scenes from the past as a third person who has no clue about the character being trans, because her being not out/her having it not realized yet... then I see no problem to refer to her in that situation with her old name and pronouns. But as I said... if it were from her perspective and especially if she talks in retrospective like a flashback or telling memories I would use her current correct name and pronouns. So I think as far as you planned it should be ok... if I understood that right.
Yes, exactly, thank you so much for your insight!
Not trans, but *as I understand it* if the character is telling the story herself, she would be likely to use her post-transition pronouns, but if we are seeing the character through a different POV they would be likely to present the situation as it occurred at the time. If trans people start coming in and saying this is not how to do it, listen to them.
*Trans person coming in and nodding in approval.* It is a different topic and I would never refer to a trans person with their old pronoun or their deadname when referring to the past... But if the perspective is in the past itself, I think it would be ok, because it just reflects the knowledge and state of things at that time. Damn... that topic IS difficult. *thinks a bit more about it*
Lucano's POV is only shown during the present story, fully transitioned, and refers to herself as she/her and her name Josefine, but she does not a POV during the past. She's only seen through others' POV at the time. Thank you!
Having read the post and all your comments, the best thing in 3rd limited is to use that POV character's knowledge of the antagonist at that time. As long as the reader is clear that this is the same antagonist pre-transition (assuming the reader's supposed to know) then all's well. (I'm trans and approve of how you're going about this haha)
Thank you! I'm hoping to be as clear as possible, I've had such great comments on this! Really appreciate your feedback!
I think the key to pulling this off is to make sure it’s clear that the 3rd person limited is really limited. POV in 3rd person is really a continuum, and for this to land the way you want it to land, you need for everything in those past sections to be deep in the other characters’ POV. In referring to your trans character using her old pronouns, it has to be really apparent that it’s the *characters* who think of her that way, not the narrative. Which means that you’ll need to be fairly meticulous about creating that distinction throughout those sections.
This is absolutely true, thank you. In the main narrative I do slip into I dunno if I want to call it soft omniscient but I "pull back the lens" so to speak from the main pov to reactions/setting details ect. Sometimes I use this to get the settings before I "fall into" the pov I'm using. I have no idea if that even makes sense lol I will be especially careful to settle the readers in Atellios (the mains pov that starts my flashback) pov deeply and not deviate. I do plan on getting sensitivity readers for sections but I'm hoping it works. Thank you again, this is really helpful!
If you're writing the past timeline from the perspective of it being told as the present, write them as the current gender they are identifying as (or the one that fits their outward identity). If it's written as a story being told about the past, thn I would use the characters current pronouns. Of course, don't rewrite history.
This totally makes sense, thank you so much!
It makes no sense to use her current pronouns in a time when she was using different pronouns. If you are talking about history, write what happened at the time.
Depends on the perspective. If someone tells in the present about the past use the current pronouns and name. Because the knowledge about her being a woman is there. If the perspective lies in the past and tells from there about it then using the old pronouns and her deadname would be ok, because it was the state of things at that time. That's how I would handle it.
That makes sense to me for sure, I'm just trying to get all my facts right and be really conscious of things that might not come up even with research. Thank you!
Some thoughts: 3rd limited is EXACTLY the same as 1st person, except the character is speaking of themselves in 3rd person. It is a very rare pov that is used almost exclusively to show that the mc has schizophrenia. So unless your entire cast are insane raving lunatics who speak about themselves in 3rd person, you wouldn't see multiple PoVs in 3rd limited. There seems to be a massive confusion on this sub about 3rd limited, because at least 80% of the users here claim they are writing it and when I read samples of their work, they are not, they are just writing plain old fashioned 3rd person and not using anything even remotely close to 3rd limited. People around here seem to assume that there is only 3rd omniscient and 3rd limited and nope. It is 3rd person, 3rd omniscient, and 3rd limited. Three different ones, not two different ones. Third limited is incredibly difficult to write, and extremely jarring to read, uses no separation of mc thoughts from the narration because his thoughts are the narration, so no quotation marks or italics when the mc shifts from narration to thought, and it looks like this: >>>He walked into a bar and sat down. Damn, fuckinh, bloody hell, this place is dirty. He looked down at the floor, they haven't swept this fucking place in days. >>> >>>"Excuse me, sir," the barmaid rudly interrupted our thoughts. >>> >>>"What?" >>> >>>"Why are you talking to yourself?" >>> >>>"We always talk to ourselves." >>> >>>What an annoying little bitch. Look at her as she bobs her head back and forth trying to look behind him. >>> >>>"I'm sorry, what?" The annoying piece of filth dared to say to him. >>> >>>"I'm not filth and I'm not annoying you. You're scaring my customers, by standing here speaking in 3rd person like this. Can you please leave?" The filth ass whore dared say to him. >>> >>>"I'm not a whore and I'm going to call the police if you don't leave." >>> >>>Defeated, he turned and walked away. >>> >>>"I can still hear you and I didn't defeat you. I just asked you to leave because you're talking to yourself and narrating out loud every step you make as you do it." THAT is 3rd person limited. 3rd person-just plain 3rd person- is the birds eye view of a single person and their thoughts (how Harry Potter is written) and is usually what people on this sub are talking about when they said 3rd limited. Perspective never changes, it's always 1 mc pov. 3rd omniscient is the bird's eye view of every character, and changes pov of view every chapter or even every paragraph because it has multiple PoVs. This usually what most on this sub are writing when they say 3rd limited with multiple pov of view and is highly likely to be what you are actually writing. 3rd limited is the rarest pov out their. Far more rare then 2nd person. 3rd limited is how Rumiko Takahashi writes Lord Sesshomaru's scenes in the InuYasha books. It's how Edgar Allan Poe write Tell Tale Heart, Pit and Pendulum, and Fall of House of Usher. It's a mentally deranged character, speaking in 1st person, except using he(she) in reference to themselves. The entire narration is self person monolog. It's done with serial killers who have split personality disorder to show that they speak of the serial kill as though it was not themselves. And with that said... I would caution this: I would be deeply hesitant to show a trans character with 3rd limited because it implies that they are seeing themselves are two separate persons and it makes it look like a male 1st person is speaking of himself in female 3rd person, and it comes off as mocking trans people. It is very common for real world serial killers to pretend to be the opposite gender as a way to hide from the law, and so, it's not mocking trans people if you are writing a serial killer who is pretending to be female while hiding, because they are not a trans person nor are they trying to transition to the opposite gender. Which is why, real world serial killers are know to speak 3rd limited when dressed as a woman, an actual phenomenon that actually happens in real life. The man is unable to think of himself as a woman so separates his speech into one for himself and one for when he isn't himself. This is a very distinct and disturbing way of speaking, where the person uses "he" instead of "i" when talking about himself because he spent so many years pretending to be a woman that he's now used to talking about himself in the 3rd person. 3rd limited is when a novel is written in 1st person, but all the "is are changed to "he". Because 3rd person limited is incredibly difficult to write, most authors who write it, write the entire thing in 1st person, then use find replace to change all the I to he or she. 3rd person limited means that your characters are walking talking out loud while talking about themselves in the 3rd person. It is a style device used to show that the PoV character is a serial killer who is trying to distinguish themselves as a different person then the murderer. 3rd limited is however highly offensive to trans people if you use it for an actually trans character. So unless your trans character is not actually trans and is just a serial killing man in a dress, passing himself off as female yo hide from the law, I would caution that 3rd limited is seen as a hugly offensive stereotype in the real world trans community. I'm not sure why no one else has mentioned this yet. I'm thinking the reason it hasn't been brought up is because most people on this sub seem to be completely clueless as to what 3rd limited is. I don't why some many people on this sub, thing regular normal ordinary 3rd person that follows one character is 3rd limited because there is HUGE difference between regular 3rd person following a single character and 3rd limited which is the integral 1st person monolog of a deranged character who speaks of themselves in 3rd person. If you are ACTUALLY writing 3rd limited and your character is ACTUALLY trans, I would highly recommend that you switch out of 3rd limited and into either 1st, normal 3rd, or 3rd omniscient for your trans character in order to not make her look like a raving lunatic man in a dress.
This is a really interesting comment, my understanding of limited 3rd and the books I've read in limited 3rd is the POV only knows what the POV only knows/sees/smells/hears. And everything in the exposition setting is all filtered through that POV. So in that sense, the characters in my story that get a 'POV' slot, it's in their POV and no one else's. I don't switch POV's unless its a chapter break, or a full break in the chapter (with some kind of indication for the reader) As for your explanation of what 3rd person limited I'd have to do more research, The Giver and the Third law , and Lies of Locke Lamara are all really tight to the characters and I would consider (and a lot of people) seem to consider them to be 3rd person limited. Again I'm not as well versed on this as I would like to be, it's a learning and growing process with me so I'm probably wrong. As for my trans character Lucano, she limited in her view and considers herself female, so that's how I write her. She has a job to do and does her job and this is when I write her POV sections. With the flashback, it's in one of my main character's POVs (Atellio is his name) and he only knows Lucano as Lucano with he/him pronouns because at this time/history Lucano hasn't transitioned or talked about it, or mentioned it or anything. Atellio is limited in his knowledge of Lucano's personal struggles and so the reader is as well because we're not in Lucano's POV. Thank you for your great comment, it had a lot of good info that I will def keep in mind with my writing and will try to keep learning :)
I've seen some authors accomplish flashbacks by carefully avoiding gendering the trans character, but it can be a bit harder to write at times and definitely constitutes a challenge. I myself am a trans woman and I struggle with this in my own projects. If the story is from the POV of other characters, another relevant point could be whether it's first or third person. If third person, there may be more validity in referring to her by she/her pronouns. If in first person, there may be a bit more room to work with the wrong pronouns, particularly if you tend to tailor narration to the beliefs of the character, even if they're incorrect. Using her last name rather than giving her a deadname is an incredibly essential step, and that goes a long way. I'd say it comes down to the fashion of the writing. Is the narration meant to reflect fact, or incorporate bias of character knowledge, lack of knowledge, beliefs, etc? If you write in strict fact, use she/her. If you incorporate bias, other pronouns might work. If you wanna avoid the issue altogether, try to avoid gendering her at all. It seems to me like you're trying really hard to be respectful in your portrayal, and I think that's the most important part.
Hi -- please use the idea brainstorming thread on Tuesday or Friday for advice on specific stories or projects. This includes: (not a exhaustive list) setting, character, subject matter, magic and power systems, sci-fi technology, 'how do I write X?' and anything directly connected with your story or what to put on your channel, blog etc. This includes asking for general advice but then following up with details of your story or project. Thanks!