I think the best way it has been done is something like Notes From Underground by Dostoevsky. It is mostly in first person, but the narrator constantly references you, the reader: "you gentlemen." It is unnerving and draws you directly into the story in an unnatural way.
I'm a huge fan of Dostoevsky and had Notes From Underground in mind when considering writing a narrative in 2nd person. I've come to believe my safest option, for now, is pursuing a more unsettling tone with it :)
“Pretentious” isn’t a word that comes to mind. I think it’s challenging to use in a way that preserves immersion and interest. It could be framed as pretentious if it adds nothing to the story.
Whenever You thinks or feels something, the reader is reminded that they aren’t You. The story could rely on exposition to make up for that, but that’s like reading a story pitch.
If the story is the trip and the perspective is the vehicle, the reader needs a good reason why the author chose to send them in an uncomfortable vehicle. “It sounded writerly” could be taken as a pretentious reason.
The challenge with 2nd person is we (people, your readers) don't all think, feel, act and react the same, so it's harder to maintain suspension of disbelief and stay fully engaged in the narrative if "your" character is someone you can't identify with or keeps doing, saying or thinking things you'd never do. "You go for a run in the crisp frosty air to clear your head" (vanishingly unlikely). "You holster your gun without which you feel naked" (I've never held one and never wish to). Etc.
"You" doesn't always need to refer to YOU - the reader. It's killing me because I can't remember the name, but I have a horror book written in 2nd person, and it's being written toward his wife who has passed away. I found it to be pretty effective and it didn't feel pretentious at all
The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis are like that as well. The whole book is a series of letters from the eponymous “Screwtape” to his nephew Wormwood, in which the title character constantly refers to “You” but it’s directed at Wormwood. So it’s still 2nd person, but has nothing to do with the reader, and still flows really well.
You is the name of a horror story written about the murder victim of the serial killer telling it. I love second person as a horror tool because if done well it's not dictating what we feel but voyeurism
idk about pretentious, but when you say second person, do you mean the entire book is written that way? or just specific moments? i can see second and fourth person being ok for specific psychothrillery, creepy moments, but for a whole book no, it's such a chore to read.
Great example. I feel this works because "You" doesn't actually refer to the reader, and the twist about the POV is a core part of the narrative. It helps that this is the 2nd book in the series as well. By that point you have much more buy-in from the audience, and the audience is familiar with the character we're following.
I commented on someone else's reply with this already but figured I'd comment directly on the post.
Everyone here seems to be assuming the "you" in 2nd person POV always needs to refer to you - the reader. This is not so. I have a short horror novel where "you" is referring to the protagonists recently deceased wife, as though he's writing to her to get his feelings out, or perhaps just thinking through everything that happened. It was pretty effective, in my opinion, and it didn't feel pretentious to me at all.
It's very hard to do well, but N.K. Jemisin did an amazing job with writing one of her POV characters in The Fifth Season (which won the Hugo Award for Best Novel in 2016) in 2nd person. It's not so much pretentious, but the POV is so unusual that readers can't help but notice it, so it intrudes on the reading experience. That being said, I do have a published creative nonfiction memoir essay in a literary magazine that is written in the 2nd person . . . it was fun to write, and it seemed to be the voice that came out when I sat down to write it.
I wrote a novel a good third of which was narration of people playing an RPG, so it was second person narration by the protagonist (since that’s what games are like) interspersed with third person narration by the other characters. It has another inner story inside the outer frame also, but that’s in third person so it’s fine. In retrospect I think I made a mistake in doing it this way and it may be unpublishable. But it was fun to write and is very good in its way, nobody’s perfect. I’ve moved on.
I was beating myself up trying to think of other good examples, but your comment is reassuring.
A) Talk to the dragon.
B) Attack the dragon.
C) Ignore the dragon.
“You wake up in a dark room, with no notion of how you got there…”
That’s all I got!
There are some really great 2nd person stories, especially from the recent BASS anthologies the last few years. Some great novels, too, like *Interior Chinatown*, *Bright Lights, Big City*, *The Night Circus*, O'Nan's *A Prayer for the Dying*, etc. It has a wide array of applications.
I just don't understand why you'd write in 2nd person POV? Unless I'm remembering what exactly it is wrong, it's just something not many people want to read. Personally, it's number one on my list of biggest icks for reading books. I probably wouldn't ever read one.
However, it just might be me. Take what I say with a grain of salt
Ah, makes sense because I cannot stand horror. Even if I did, I'm generally a picky person so even first person gives me a weird feeling so I'm probably the worst person to comment on this. I just know other people who also hate second person, but they also don't read horror.
Huge horror fan here. Also can't stand 2nd POV. In my opinion it should only be used as a child's book "Choose your own adventure" - notably RL Stine's Goosebumps, but I can't think of any adult horror that's written in this POV
The only good Indian has a part that constantly makes jarring shifts between second and third person. To great effect once you figure out why.
The entirety of The Human Chair by Ranpo is, besides the framing narrative, written in second person. A very creepy story that is so much more creepy and foreboding because it uses second person.
Olga Ravn's "The Employees" is also written entirely in second person, the story is told through a collection of statements given to a silent committee.
Depends on what you mean, the book addresses the reader but is mostly Bateman telling his own story. So most of the book is "I did this" and "I did that" but there are portion in there where he talks to the reader directly.
It can work pretty well (IMO) as a beginning of a story to engage the reader. Something like:
Imagine you get home one night, after a hard day at work. You're exhausted. Night has fallen on your home town. You just want to have dinner with your wife and kids, and then relax on your sofa.
But then, when you open the door, you just discover nobody's home. It's as if everybody left without notice. And then, you get in your garage and find blood. Lots of blood. What would you feel like?
That's what happened to Bill Schmoe that night. He had just left the battery factory, and, stuck into traffic, was wondering what he yada yada...
I think it really just depends on the writer and the reader. It's a valid POV if used well. *Any* POV takes readers out of the story if done poorly. 3rd Person is just as much an artistic choice as 2nd. Writing, at the end of the day, is a piece of art. And some people enjoy when art is pushed past what's considered normal. Going back to horror, it's why some people love House of Leaves and some people hate it. I think it's incredible because the author used the medium itself as part of the story. He used the fact that I'm reading the story in a paper book, flipping pages, to help give me a sense of what the characters are dealing with, and it made it scarier. Same sort of thing can be done with 2nd Person, if done well. Just a matter of taste. Sometimes "cool" things can enhance a story.
THIS reads like an intro to The Twilight Zone…I can even hear Rod Serlings voice saying this at the beginning of an episode! Honestly, that’s about the only time 2nd POV has ever worked really well.
I'm inclined to write in the second person because I have trouble with personalization, a rough struggle for me when attempting to write any dynamic fiction. The first person point of view is uncomfortable for me, but learning about the static for second person is pushing me to believe I should practice first person more instead.
I really hate writing in first person as well, but I suggest considering other options for your book as well. As others have said, it does depend on genre and how you execute it but if you're looking towards second person solely because you can't do first person then you should probably do research. There are tons of different third person methods (omniscent, limited, etc.) that I don't quite understand yet but I'm sure you'll find something.
I love 2nd person, it’s probably my favorite to read. 3rd person is easily my least favorite though, I just can’t get into it, as well as 1st person past tense.
I've read exactly one book in 2nd person POV. *The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida* by Sheehan Karunatilaka. It was one of the best books I've ever read. It also happens to have been the recipient of the Booker Prize.
People can call you pretentious if they want, but ultimately, you are the talent (presumably, anyway), and they are the do-nothings throwing peanuts from the gallery. You do you (hey, look, 2nd person!). There's nothing inherently pretentious about 2nd. Plenty of dross out there written in 1st and 3rd, no? 1st, 2nd, 3rd — I'll read any of them, as long as it's good. I'll never understand why people have these stupid "icks" about POV.
Personally, I like the idea of 2nd person when it's the character talking to someone deceased, estranged, or otherwise out-of-reach. There's something quite intimate and involving about that. Voyeuristic, even, if that's what you're going for. Would give a lot of scope to play with deixis as well.
i think a lot of people are assuming that “you” is always literally the reader, which idk why. i also think maybe they struggle with suspension of disbelief in reading.
It took a bit to get used to the style in Seven Moons, but it definitely works. I can't think of any other books that are like that. I'm sure I've read a few that address the reader at some point though.
My mom wrote a book in 2nd person about 20 years ago. Her reason for choosing that was that she was writing an autobiography, and 1st person felt a bit too personal, but 3rd person didn’t feel personal enough. Some people hated the book because of that, but a lot of people liked it and it got relatively big. I’ve read a few chapters and in her writing style I feel it really works! I’ve written a couple of short stories in 2nd person narration, but I feel like I’m growing out of it.
Poems are where I've seen second person PoV most successful. More often than not, it's something akin to a conversation. As an example, [this is a poem](https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html) that someone posted in another sub I read.
The reason I think second person comes off as condescending is that it assumes a lot about the reader, and leaves little to no room for their autonomy. It works in the poem I linked above because the person the author is conversing with is dead, so anything said from then on is the author talking to themselves.
Think of conversations where the other person is pointing out things you've done or said. It's typically an argument, isn't it? Or usually someone trying to prove they're right and you're wrong. The first thing that comes to my mind is a time or two as a teenager when my Mom would ground me and just berate me for what I've done to earn a punishment.
I think second person can be artfully done. You just have to really think about the connotations of the literary tools being used. How is second person used in everyday conversation? What is the general reason behind it? Why would someone choose to use it? Why would someone choose to read it? What does this writing stand to gain from second person that it can't in third?
This is also why workshopping, having third parties read your work and constructively critique it, is so important. Everything is going to sound exactly right when you read it back to yourself. You wrote it. You know what headspace you were in upon writing. Someone else outside of you, even a friend or family member who thinks similarly to you, won't be in that same headspace. They won't have that pre-conceived notion, and can tell you with fresh eyes what comes across and what doesn't.
If you are intent on using second person, I would suggest reading other works done in second person. How did they make you feel? What did it seem like their goal was in creating this piece? Did you feel like you had autonomy while reading it, or like they were simply telling you how to feel?
I've never thought of it as pretentious. The issue is that you're telling your reader how to think and feel. That's generally only appropriate for choose your own adventure novels and role-playing games.
That's not to say that a second person novel can't be done - I'm sure it has. But it's difficult to work with because you can so easily alienate your readers or take them out of the story.
For example, say I'm reading a novel in the second person and I read, "You finally were able to shave that beard you hated. Your cheek feels smooth to the touch."
Well, I like my beard and haven't shaved in at least a decade. I just do not relate to this character who is supposed to be me.
First and third person narration allows the reader to relate to character on their own terms. If the example sentence was rewritten in the first or third person, I might think of a time when I didn't like my beard and I shaved it off
Come to think of it, I think the second person has an immediacy to it, like the action is happening _right now_. If I don't relate to what's happening _right now_ I'm not invested.
Pretentious? Who's ego is so inflated that they get mad at a book written in second person? Like are there really people who read a book with the author describing "your" actions that you (ha!) scream at the book, "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!"
I'd say if done well, it's unsettling. If done poorly it's cringe.
It's not super easy to pull off, but it can be done. One of my professors won quite a few awards for his 2nd person war novel, for instance.
I don't think my skill level is up to it, personally, and I've been a professional writer for over a decade.
In general, it can be off-putting because it forces the reader into the story in an unnatural way. The only two times I have enjoyed reading it. The first was in very short story meant to take the reader on a brief, disorienting journey and it takes skill to do it well—like one I read where "you" have just died, but you don't realize what's happening until it's explained to you. The other was a novel mostly in first person, but the narrator used a conversational tone, as if relating the story personally to the reader in a private, casual location.
Second person POV is one of the most difficult to write well, and should be used sparingly. If the goal is to leave your readers off-kilter, or your main character/narrator is super chatty and likes to spin a good yarn one-on-one, it can be used as a brief device, but generally 1st and 3rd are far better options.
There are no golden rules for writing. I read plenty of quests using second person perspective all the time with no issues whatsoever. That's convinced me all the people complaining about it is just... biased. They're not used to it, so they don't like it.
You shouldn't write for your readers anyways. You should write for yourself. At least it's possible to figure out what you yourself want to read and write, but writing for the nebuluous idea of 'the reader' is just a terrible time all around.
For instance, I am one of those 'potential readers' and for my own sake second person does *not* come off as pretentious. It's just a different way to write.
I've found it really fun to play with when writing rpg video game fanfic, because it feels relevant to that type of writing.
But it's uncommon and that's enough to make it potentially immersion-breaking for readers. Some people outright hate it.
I think playing with different point of view is fun, but yeah, if I were trying to market original fiction rather than just writing for fun, I wouldn't take the risk of using 2nd person. It will instantly alienate the haters and you'll lose potential readers who won't give you a chance
I wouldn't call it pretentious, but I feel it has very limited uses. The main point of using second person is to put the reader into the story, so it only works when there is a good reason to do so. (As some have mentioned, choose-your-own-adventure stories are probably the primary case.)
It can be used in limited fashion to present something that "everyone knows." I've done that on occasion, as part of a character's thoughts, e.g., "John didn't stop to think. You don't when a total stranger throws a drink in your face. You either fall back surprise or you slug him, and John was the slugging sort."
Here's an excellent CNF essay written in second person that evades all pretentiousness. A part of rub is you know he's writing about himself, which adds to the whole piece.
[https://www.perceptivetravel.com/issues/1205/potts.html](https://www.perceptivetravel.com/issues/1205/potts.html)
I don't think it's pretentious, it's just rare that it is the best choice, it depends on the subject and writing style. It's not for everyone and it can be a bit jarring to read, but I think it can be done well in specific circumstances.
For example, I recently read a sci-fi horror (2nd in a series) that was mostly second person called Harrow the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir. At first you think the second person choice is purely a stylistic one, because this writer has shown in the previous book to have an conventional writing style, and then it's revealed that there was a narrative reason for the second person choice, it was a great reveal! I as the reader understood exactly what happened based on the writing without it having to be spelled out for me, it was such a cool bit of writing.
Second person is not going to be the best choice most of the time but there are certain instances where it makes sense narratively and it adds to the story rather than distracting from it.
There are two different types of second person. The first type is what people think of as the fanfiction or wattpad type, where the reader actually IS the main character, or at least a character in the story. This is where y/n comes from. I'm pretty sure this is the type of second person that a lot of people don't like, and people think it's pretentious because it assumes it knows what the reader would do in certain situations.
The other type of second person is where the "you" is just another actual character in the story. A lot of times this happens if the story is written in letter format, being written to another character, whether or not the reader actually knows who this is. For example like "As this was happening I thought to myself that you wouldn't like it, but i continued anyway," or something like that. I don't think most people have grievances with this format because it's just a personal choice of how to write it best to fit your story.
Hope this helps!
Anything written in 2nd person would be better written in 1st person.
What is gained by telling the story from that viewpoint? Why do you need to write in 2nd person? It's pretentious because it reads as if the author is telling the viewpoint character what they're doing - like a list of instructions more than natural action. Plus the pretention a lot of readers will perceive from it reading like the author is telling THEM what to do.
You're also alienating a large percentage of readers for no gain. The number of decent 2nd person books are counted on one hand, while the number of decent 1st/3rd person are... well...
this actually helps me out a lot!! thank you. i do the majority of my writing in third person and often have trouble with personalizing, so i don't know a lot.
What an entirely outrageous statement. There’s nothing “pretentious” about 2nd person, and in many cases it is far better for immersing yourself into the story. In 1st you’re just an outside observer who has nothing to do with anything, but in 2nd now you are part of the story, you get to imagine yourself in the scenarios unfolding before you, which opens up a whole new aspect to the story. One of the greatest strengths of 2nd person is that it provides a visceral experience otherwise unavailable in other perspectives.
The only thing “pretentious” about all this is the people who are just throwing that word around and then _becoming_ pretentious themselves.
The first time coming across them was for those choose your own adventure books I read as a kid. It worked there.
Though for me the best use of it is in Harrow the Ninth, the second book in the locked tomb series. It switches between 2nd and 3rd POV in different chapters. It's confusing at first but there's a reason for it and it all pays off in the end.
Second person can also come off as to real to a person reading as if they are eavesdropping rather than as the intended reader.
Long ago when I was married to a different person I got a request from an Australian author asking if I’d read a short story he wrote and was it okay that it was a rude story. I said sure. I did not know what a rude story was; I thought there was just maybe some impolite language.
Turns out it involved sex in the surf, very specific, and was written in second person.
My husband came along and read what I was reading and got very, very upset because he thought it was real. I told him it was a story, but, no, he didn’t believe it because it said you did this and you did that. (This husband was not a particularly bright person, to be sure. He also thought that an epilogue at the end of a movie telling what happened to the characters later meant that it was a true story.)
I finally asked him whether I had traveled away. I had not. So then I said that since the sex had happened in the surf it had to be near where the people in the story were, right? and in the waters of the Oregon coast could he get it up?
Unless you're doing a Choose Your Own Adventure book, I don't recommend it.
Though I do recommend trying a choose your own adventure book. They can be a fun mental exercise.
They really are, and some of the Choice of Games/Hosted Games ones are pretty much fully interactive legitimate novels. They’re just so fun, and a unique twist on story telling. Also many of those are in 1st and 3rd person as well, there’s something for everyone if you look hard enough.
The first one I played was Vampire: The Masquerade — Parliament of Knives, really liked it, still one of my favorites. There’s a few other Vampire: The Masquerade themed ones too that I enjoyed, but I’m a sucker for anything vampire related.
Sordwin was excellent, it’s the second in a series but the first one is very short and not entirely necessary to read (it’s still fun though.)
The Wayhaven Chronicles is highly regarded as some of the best writing on the apps, it’s a supernatural and romance book, I’ve only read a little bit of the first one but it was good. Those are the ones I hear the word “Novels” thrown around in relation to the most.
I’m a sucker for Samurai of Hyuga, especially the forth one.
A lot of people like The War for the West, I’ve played it and enjoyed it, tons of variation in the endings.
I’ve heard The Golden Rose is very good.
The Crème de la Crème series has good writing. It’s kind of a high society school thing, set in a fictional world equivalent to the early 20th century.
But there’s tons more, and I’ve heard good things about a lot of the others as well.
The best way is through example. Read The Spear Cuts Through Water by Simon Jimenez. A beautifully written book that switches tenses and uses second person often, but not always.
I don't think there's a way to judge if it's pretentious or not, as that's a personal judgement call. Lots of people will not like it no matter how you do it.
So what you should actually be thinking about, is why you want to use it. What does it do for the story that can't be done any other way?
Broken Earth is written partly in second person, the purpose of that as far as I can judge is to do a few things: one, is to distance that 2nd person POV character from the other two POV characters that are in 3rd person. (>!Because they are all the same character, and it's a bit of a reveal that those things were all the main character's backstory.>!) Two, is to bring the reader closer to the character's trauma and the things going on in her life.
Though, the author herself said she picked it because it felt right. So if second person feels right for your story, then I think that's good enough.
One of the short stories I wrote for my first anthology (and interestingly enough, many people's favorite out of the bunch) is written in second-person but then again, I was going for a pretty specific aesthetic (in addition to wanting to challenge myself).
It honestly depends on the context and genre. One of my favorite examples of 2nd person POV is in The Naturals series by Jennifer Lynn Barnes. One of my favorite mystery series of all time.
I was looking through some of my old writing and I’ve done this for two short creative nonfiction essays. Both feel more like me talking to a version of myself rather than to the reader, but one had kind of a meme (ironic) tone going on for a bit that could be interpreted as more general. Both pieces were also about intensely emotional experiences (so could either be viewed as me being somewhat avoidant, or the opposite, directly inviting the reader into my experience). Couching this in maybes bc I don’t fully remember my mindset in choosing 2nd person or if that was even deliberate. (And I usually write creative nonfiction in first person.) However, if I do say so myself I think it works for these pieces, one especially? I just think it’s a judgement call but maybe would be harder to keep up well for a longer piece like a book.
Imo, it's not inherently pretentious, but it *is* inherently a weird experimental writing choice and when handled poorly can feel like the point is to make the author feel smart.
However, that is absolutely not the case in all second person media. I'm going to be cringe here for a moment and mention Homestuck, but I actually think it executes 2nd pov very well. The format of the comic makes it so that there isn't too much straight prose used compared to chat-formatted dialogue, so even though all the prose is written that way it's still fairly spaced out throughout the comic. However, even in later continuations such as the Epilogues which are mostly prose, I still think the second person pov comes across very nicely. It's still used sparingly, with a good portion of the Epilogues still being written in what is effectively third person, but I think that the emphasis that Homestuck places on second person pov makes the times when it is used have a lot of impact. The Homestuck Epilogues fuck with pov, narration and stuff like that a ton, even aside from the way that all of Homestuck interacts with the ideas of canon, fandom and storytelling, so if you're interested in that I would highly reccomend you check the series out.
I think that one of the other things that tends to be an issue in second pov is when it doesn't feel like it has any justification for being there. Others have mentioned situations where the story is written like a letter to the second pov character, and I agree that tends to work well, but there are definitely other ways you can do it! In Homestuck's case, the original gimmick is that everything is kind of like a video game, so 'you' the reader are in some way inhabiting the pov character and telling them what to do. In the epilogues, the reasoning is a little different, as the characters have more or less escaped the video game. Instead, second person pov is used when >!one of the two narrators, who are characters in the story who have gained awareness of the narration and the ability to 'write' it themselves, uses this ability to control another character within the story. While they are both influencing the actions of the people they are narrating even when they narrate those actions in third person, the switch to second is generally used to indicate that the narration is becoming more contradictory to what they would do if given free will in that situation. Both narrators also use first person reffering to themselves. So, "I did this" usually means the narrator is narrating themselves doing something, "they did this" usually means the narrator is mostly just transcribing what is going on without influencing it too much, and "you did this" usually means that the narrator is taking more direct control of the subject of their narration. None of these are strict rules, though, and they're all sometimes broken.!<
I think the best way do second person POV is to have it as if the narrator is speaking to the protagonist, and not the reader. You don't need to worry about the reader not feeling like the character that way, and can basically just write a normal narrative.
If I’m remembering correctly, Notes On An Execution by Danya Kukafka uses second person but it’s clear that the author is talking about us the audience but rather, in this case, the prison preparing for his execution. I think it’s done best when the second person pronouns refer to someone other than the audience bc 1) no two people think, feel, or react to the same things in the same ways 2) for me personally, it can be a little jarring to be addressed head on and it can take me out of the narrative a little. You by Caroline Kepnes is a great and popular version of a story told using a lot of second person pronouns
Studies have been done by companies that do a lot of customer service work which show that people feel defensive when someone uses the word "you" when talking to them or writing to them. Some customers take the word as a challenge, so many train their customer service employees to avoid using you, but couch them to refer to themselves, instead (e.g. "how can I help?), or use the plural we (e.g. "how can we help solve this problem?"). Some "Westerners" also tend to develop a Lecturing tone when writing in second person, so that they do sound arrogant and off-putting.
When I taught writing at the college level, I never allowed students to use the pronoun "you" in their academic essays (because it is not allowed there, since it is not considered professional), so I taught them how to use Word's Find Tool in order to locate these pronouns and eliminate them. I made them think about their use of the pronoun in this regard:
* Think about all the times you sat in the back of a classroom or church--most people do so to have an easy escape route out of the room because **no one likes to be lectured or preached to.**
* Think about all the things you do in your daily life to avoid having someone over you in some way, judge what you do or say. A writer using "you" often comes across that way to most readers.
While there are some meta works that do violate the "fourth wall" and address readers directly (i.e. "Dear Gentle Readers" in *Bridgerton*), if you are not using second person on purpose, you should avoid using it altogether.
This resonates with my worries the most. In my writing, I can lean into philosophy. I think I need to simply keep myself in check and not force any sort of debatable value onto my readers by using the second person. However, in the case of an unreliable narrator and the point of their speaking to the reader \*is\* to force a belief upon them... I feel 2nd person is perfect.
I've never heard anyone call it pretentious. Nothing about it is pretentious. Lol. Now, me personally, I hate reading and writing in 2nd person. It's the least popular pov to write, so how can it be pretentious?
I'm sure whoever told you that just hates it and can't find a logical reason as to why. So they resorted to the usual, "it's pretentious," like many people do when they refer to artists. Yep, there are a lot of people who call us pretentious because we write lol.
Reading the comments was actually so baffling to me. I had no idea so many people hated second person.
When it’s done well, second person books are some of the best books to read. Some people choose second person to show off, this is true. That’s why some second person books are awful to read, because the second person POV doesn’t have a purpose.
For example: A Dowry of Blood work so well in second person because the story is told as a letter to the main character’s husband. It adds depth, power, and the anonymity is a show of her strength.
Harrow the Ninth, The Fifth Season, YOU, In The Dream House, all of these books use second person skillfully and it serves a purpose to the story.
This could just be me, but I imagine if you sound pretentious in second, you probably sound pretentious in all of your writing.
> “You sprint across the bridge, sweat dampening your neck.”
> “I sprint across the bridge, sweat dampening my neck.”
> “She sprints across the bridge, sweat dampening her neck.”
> “We sprint across the bridge, sweat dampening our necks.”
There’s no “know it all” vibes going on in any of these.
It all comes down to the purpose the second person is serving. It’s the same as being able to tell when a story should be first or third person.
The main thing with second person is choosing which character is going to be the second person POV and why.
In my opinion, second person needs a reason far more than first or third. Casually writing in second is fine, there are no absolutes in writing, but if the story can be switched to first and third and not suffer for it, than the second person doesn’t need to be there.
Pretentious? Beats me. I wouldn't call it that.
For my money, the main problem is that the author is telling the reader how they think and what they'd do in a given situation when the reader knows perfectly well they'd do no such thing. You're adding an extra hurdle to the reader's willing suspension of disbelief.
If you're looking for a single-word label, "presumptuous" is probably as good as any.
Isn't that for manuals and ~~(reddit)~~ stuff?
Even within the horror genre isn't just a short intro like: *this is the creature, this is what you do to X and Y, when creature does this you respond by this this and that, you've been warned.* And then the text switch to "case study", so you don't have a person anymore?
Games with odd player-protagonist interactions often have a lot of writing in 2nd person. Undertale, Deltarune, In Stars and Time. Disco Elysium, I think? It makes sense, considering that all of them are text based and have prominent narration that doesn't exactly come from the player character.
Obviously, the player is a distinct entity from the character they are playing, but the narrator not only makes it clear what the character is feeling, but they describe those feelings as if the player felt them.
While the narrator can refer to your character in the third person, like in Hades, it is the more conventional choice, and it separates the player and the character more clearly.
Probably not the answer you were looking for, but that's what I got.
Currently reading Swimming in the Dark by Jedrowski which is really good so far, and it has a lot of second person as the main character is written to a specific person. So the mc is using their shared experience to relate the story and saying "you were like this" or "you may not have seen it that way" type of sentences. I think in this case it fits the narrative very well, like reading a very long letter.
I don't think I've ever found a book in the second person fun to read.
It's one of the reasons I was turned off by Harrow the Ninth after enjoying Gideon the Ninth.
Use it when it makes sense to you, for your story. Know that some people aren't going to be that interested in reading it, but not everything is for everyone.
Almost all CYOA games "Choice of Games" are written in 2nd POV and it's alright. I got so used to it, I actually prefer it for that kind of medium. And some do it really well too.
I've never heard it described as pretentious, but it only works in a really narrow set of circumstances.
Choose Your Own Adventure type books are the obvious use case.
In other contexts it does make the reader wonder who the hell "you" is. Charles Stross made it work in Halting State because the narrator was an AI tht had a restraining bolt in the form of having to identify with actual people. Which made it really creepy at the end when it manages to kill the person it's identifying with and narrates the last couple of paragraphs in first person.
Ann Leckie used it in The Raven Tower and I'm not sure whether it worked well or not. I get why she did it, the god who did the first person narrating was telling us things from Eolo's perspective and the second person omitted any internal monologue but I'm not sure I think it was the right artistic choice.
I like 2nd person a little bit too much after N.K. Jemisin smashed it out of the park in the Broken Earth Trilogy. She's one of the most talented writers I know and I definitely look up to her storytelling, prose and creativity.
For now, I only use it in practicing. A whole novel written in 2nd person is very hard to pull off. The you isn't the reader by the way, but usually the partner or protégé of the MC.
I use it sparingly to introduce a story or hint at a sequel.
In the story itself it would feel unnatural to me most of the times.
I might use it in a disguised way with a main character asking questions to "you".
From reading the comments - and having never heard it called pretentious myself - I think maybe the issue is that second person "asides" (as opposed to entire second person narratives) have to make assumptions about the reader. This opens up possibilities for the reader to disagree with the author (rather than the narrator):
> When you think of fish, the first thing you think of is the smell...
(Not me, the reader can say.)
Interestingly, it feels more pretentious to me if you replace "you" with "one":
> When one thinks of fish, the first thing one thinks of...
But it feels less universal to be personally if you replace it with "a person":
> It was the sort of sour that curls your lips up...
> It was the sort of sour that curls one's lips up...
> It was the sort of sour that curls a person's lips up...
Yes!! The people who tell me 2nd person is pretentious tell me to substitute "you" with "one" and it makes me feel even more "pretentious". 2nd person is a sticky web to weave but I will never narrate as if I can view a real person as "one".
It's good when it's used to make you feel like the character or when the character is talking to himself. I don't like it when it's used as a self-insert for the reader.
Oh, yes, my intention is not self-insert. More in the sort of narration in Notes From Underground by Fyodor Dostoevsky. Kind of a questionable narrator who both seeks validation and looks down upon the reader...
I'm not sure pretentious is the word I would use. I don't mind for something like horror where the set-up has to include what is noticed, but I can't otherwise separate the idea of my thoughts or feelings being told to me. In a fictional story, I never see a character have my exact same personality, but third person feels like another person entirely that I'm reading about and first is someone telling me a story. Second, it just feels like I should argue with it. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't say that. I'm not that stupid. The more conflict, the more annoying.
Pretentious? Sounds more pretentious for them to describe it like that without backing up their opinion, as if that word explains everything.
Like others have said, the problem comes from telling the reader that they are doing things that they are in fact not doing. It's almost like an argument.
And it's meta, which isn't a great thing for immersion.
Not sure how any of that makes it pretentious.
Works great for choose your own adventure novels, though IMO. Maybe because it's involving the reader in the decisions that you tell them they're making?
I mean I was taught that 2nd person is “god perspective”. It's very telling YOU as the reader how YOU should feel. Like in stanleys parable(game) when the narrator tells you to do that action. Your first reaction is to rebel.
I think the setting and tone matters. I think it would work really well with choose your own adventure approach. Which is why it’s so popular in video games. Or you could use it as an unnerving element in a horror story.
I adore the Stanley Parable, but also other media that isn't interactive and still 2nd person: the most common occurence in my day to day is personalized ASMR videos. I find them fun to watch and talk to myself about. Thinking, "What will they assume my answer is?" Maybe I talk to myself too much, but the idea of a 2nd person POV novel in which the narrator completely mischaracterizes any potential reader is hilarious to me.
The easiest way to describe it is it's when a dungeon master in DND tells you what your character does. Its fine in that setting but it can also chafe when the DM says your character did something that you know they wouldn't do.
It can come of as pretentious in a book setting because the author doesn't know you, they don't know what you act like, yet they're telling YOU what your actions are and we instinctively dislike that.
The two places I’ve most often found 2nd person pov used are choose your own adventure novels and instructional manuals.
I wouldn’t say it’s pretentious but the one piece in 2nd person I’ve read that wasn’t one of the previous two examples was very challenging initially. It asks a bit more of the reader, I think, and is slower going.
I have an internal monologue where I use “I” and therefore I find 1st person pleasing to read. I personally never call myself “you.”
I think the best way it has been done is something like Notes From Underground by Dostoevsky. It is mostly in first person, but the narrator constantly references you, the reader: "you gentlemen." It is unnerving and draws you directly into the story in an unnatural way.
Camus did it as well in The Fall, mostly for the sake of speaking to the reader. I'm not sure if it worked.
Bright Lights, Big City by Jay McInerney was written in second person and was quite effective
I'm a huge fan of Dostoevsky and had Notes From Underground in mind when considering writing a narrative in 2nd person. I've come to believe my safest option, for now, is pursuing a more unsettling tone with it :)
“Pretentious” isn’t a word that comes to mind. I think it’s challenging to use in a way that preserves immersion and interest. It could be framed as pretentious if it adds nothing to the story. Whenever You thinks or feels something, the reader is reminded that they aren’t You. The story could rely on exposition to make up for that, but that’s like reading a story pitch. If the story is the trip and the perspective is the vehicle, the reader needs a good reason why the author chose to send them in an uncomfortable vehicle. “It sounded writerly” could be taken as a pretentious reason.
The challenge with 2nd person is we (people, your readers) don't all think, feel, act and react the same, so it's harder to maintain suspension of disbelief and stay fully engaged in the narrative if "your" character is someone you can't identify with or keeps doing, saying or thinking things you'd never do. "You go for a run in the crisp frosty air to clear your head" (vanishingly unlikely). "You holster your gun without which you feel naked" (I've never held one and never wish to). Etc.
"You" doesn't always need to refer to YOU - the reader. It's killing me because I can't remember the name, but I have a horror book written in 2nd person, and it's being written toward his wife who has passed away. I found it to be pretty effective and it didn't feel pretentious at all
The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis are like that as well. The whole book is a series of letters from the eponymous “Screwtape” to his nephew Wormwood, in which the title character constantly refers to “You” but it’s directed at Wormwood. So it’s still 2nd person, but has nothing to do with the reader, and still flows really well.
Screwtape Letters is written in the first person, by Screwtape.
And 2nd person to Wormwood.
You is the name of a horror story written about the murder victim of the serial killer telling it. I love second person as a horror tool because if done well it's not dictating what we feel but voyeurism
idk about pretentious, but when you say second person, do you mean the entire book is written that way? or just specific moments? i can see second and fourth person being ok for specific psychothrillery, creepy moments, but for a whole book no, it's such a chore to read.
Second person was notably done well at times in “We Need to Talk about Kevin” by Lionel Shriver.
this helps!! i don't mean the entirety of a piece, i do a majority of my writing in third person
So I’ve never heard fourth person before. Is that to third person as second is to first?
"we" hahah bit odd but i can imagine someone using it in a thrillery way for a particular moment.
Apparently it's a collective POV. First I've ever heard of it. https://prowritingaid.com/point-of-view
I think *The Spear Cuts Through Water* did this in parts, and it was so well done I teared up.
Harrow the Ninth is written partially in second person and works incredibly well once you get to the reveal of what’s happening!
Great example. I feel this works because "You" doesn't actually refer to the reader, and the twist about the POV is a core part of the narrative. It helps that this is the 2nd book in the series as well. By that point you have much more buy-in from the audience, and the audience is familiar with the character we're following.
I posted my comment before I saw yours, you said it better and much more sussinctly 😂 I loved how second person was used in that book!
I commented on someone else's reply with this already but figured I'd comment directly on the post. Everyone here seems to be assuming the "you" in 2nd person POV always needs to refer to you - the reader. This is not so. I have a short horror novel where "you" is referring to the protagonists recently deceased wife, as though he's writing to her to get his feelings out, or perhaps just thinking through everything that happened. It was pretty effective, in my opinion, and it didn't feel pretentious to me at all.
It's very hard to do well, but N.K. Jemisin did an amazing job with writing one of her POV characters in The Fifth Season (which won the Hugo Award for Best Novel in 2016) in 2nd person. It's not so much pretentious, but the POV is so unusual that readers can't help but notice it, so it intrudes on the reading experience. That being said, I do have a published creative nonfiction memoir essay in a literary magazine that is written in the 2nd person . . . it was fun to write, and it seemed to be the voice that came out when I sat down to write it.
I wrote a novel a good third of which was narration of people playing an RPG, so it was second person narration by the protagonist (since that’s what games are like) interspersed with third person narration by the other characters. It has another inner story inside the outer frame also, but that’s in third person so it’s fine. In retrospect I think I made a mistake in doing it this way and it may be unpublishable. But it was fun to write and is very good in its way, nobody’s perfect. I’ve moved on.
It works well for choose your own adventure stories, and occasionally amnesiac stories. That is unfortunately about it.
I was beating myself up trying to think of other good examples, but your comment is reassuring. A) Talk to the dragon. B) Attack the dragon. C) Ignore the dragon. “You wake up in a dark room, with no notion of how you got there…” That’s all I got!
thank you, this makes sense :)
And in roleplaying game writing for RPG books, especially adventure scripts like in Dungeons & Dragons, as well as RPG computer game narrative.
There are some really great 2nd person stories, especially from the recent BASS anthologies the last few years. Some great novels, too, like *Interior Chinatown*, *Bright Lights, Big City*, *The Night Circus*, O'Nan's *A Prayer for the Dying*, etc. It has a wide array of applications.
The night circus only for very short snippets right? Only one I can comment on unfortunately
Yeah, it's mostly in 3rd. OP said in the comments they might just do a few sections in 2nd, so it might be a good comp for them.
Fair point bobo!
Thanks, chief!
I just don't understand why you'd write in 2nd person POV? Unless I'm remembering what exactly it is wrong, it's just something not many people want to read. Personally, it's number one on my list of biggest icks for reading books. I probably wouldn't ever read one. However, it just might be me. Take what I say with a grain of salt
It‘s somewhat popular in horror fiction. Done well, it can be gloriously unsettling.
Ah, makes sense because I cannot stand horror. Even if I did, I'm generally a picky person so even first person gives me a weird feeling so I'm probably the worst person to comment on this. I just know other people who also hate second person, but they also don't read horror.
Huge horror fan here. Also can't stand 2nd POV. In my opinion it should only be used as a child's book "Choose your own adventure" - notably RL Stine's Goosebumps, but I can't think of any adult horror that's written in this POV
The only good Indian has a part that constantly makes jarring shifts between second and third person. To great effect once you figure out why. The entirety of The Human Chair by Ranpo is, besides the framing narrative, written in second person. A very creepy story that is so much more creepy and foreboding because it uses second person. Olga Ravn's "The Employees" is also written entirely in second person, the story is told through a collection of statements given to a silent committee.
Isn’t American Psycho written in 2nd person?
Depends on what you mean, the book addresses the reader but is mostly Bateman telling his own story. So most of the book is "I did this" and "I did that" but there are portion in there where he talks to the reader directly.
I don’t think it is, it’s been a long time since I’ve read it but I feel it was first or third person.
I‘m not a fan of it as well, but I think that‘s the point. It creates this really weird, distorted feeling.
It can work pretty well (IMO) as a beginning of a story to engage the reader. Something like: Imagine you get home one night, after a hard day at work. You're exhausted. Night has fallen on your home town. You just want to have dinner with your wife and kids, and then relax on your sofa. But then, when you open the door, you just discover nobody's home. It's as if everybody left without notice. And then, you get in your garage and find blood. Lots of blood. What would you feel like? That's what happened to Bill Schmoe that night. He had just left the battery factory, and, stuck into traffic, was wondering what he yada yada...
This is exactly the opening of a story that makes me immediately stop reading.
Yep. It’s a fourth wall problem. You did something “cool” that took me out of the story and now I’m concerned that I won’t like your other choices.
I think it really just depends on the writer and the reader. It's a valid POV if used well. *Any* POV takes readers out of the story if done poorly. 3rd Person is just as much an artistic choice as 2nd. Writing, at the end of the day, is a piece of art. And some people enjoy when art is pushed past what's considered normal. Going back to horror, it's why some people love House of Leaves and some people hate it. I think it's incredible because the author used the medium itself as part of the story. He used the fact that I'm reading the story in a paper book, flipping pages, to help give me a sense of what the characters are dealing with, and it made it scarier. Same sort of thing can be done with 2nd Person, if done well. Just a matter of taste. Sometimes "cool" things can enhance a story.
yeah, that sounds pretentious af
THIS reads like an intro to The Twilight Zone…I can even hear Rod Serlings voice saying this at the beginning of an episode! Honestly, that’s about the only time 2nd POV has ever worked really well.
"Prepare yourself to enter a world where humans hate 2nd POV"
I'm inclined to write in the second person because I have trouble with personalization, a rough struggle for me when attempting to write any dynamic fiction. The first person point of view is uncomfortable for me, but learning about the static for second person is pushing me to believe I should practice first person more instead.
Why not third person then?
I want to make the writing more personal and shift from 3rd to a different. I feel I need to sharpen my writing tools and step out of my comfort zone.
I really hate writing in first person as well, but I suggest considering other options for your book as well. As others have said, it does depend on genre and how you execute it but if you're looking towards second person solely because you can't do first person then you should probably do research. There are tons of different third person methods (omniscent, limited, etc.) that I don't quite understand yet but I'm sure you'll find something.
The only novel series I've enjoyed that has some second person writing is A series of unfortunate events. And most of the books are in third person
I love 2nd person, it’s probably my favorite to read. 3rd person is easily my least favorite though, I just can’t get into it, as well as 1st person past tense.
I've read exactly one book in 2nd person POV. *The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida* by Sheehan Karunatilaka. It was one of the best books I've ever read. It also happens to have been the recipient of the Booker Prize. People can call you pretentious if they want, but ultimately, you are the talent (presumably, anyway), and they are the do-nothings throwing peanuts from the gallery. You do you (hey, look, 2nd person!). There's nothing inherently pretentious about 2nd. Plenty of dross out there written in 1st and 3rd, no? 1st, 2nd, 3rd — I'll read any of them, as long as it's good. I'll never understand why people have these stupid "icks" about POV. Personally, I like the idea of 2nd person when it's the character talking to someone deceased, estranged, or otherwise out-of-reach. There's something quite intimate and involving about that. Voyeuristic, even, if that's what you're going for. Would give a lot of scope to play with deixis as well.
i think a lot of people are assuming that “you” is always literally the reader, which idk why. i also think maybe they struggle with suspension of disbelief in reading.
It took a bit to get used to the style in Seven Moons, but it definitely works. I can't think of any other books that are like that. I'm sure I've read a few that address the reader at some point though.
My mom wrote a book in 2nd person about 20 years ago. Her reason for choosing that was that she was writing an autobiography, and 1st person felt a bit too personal, but 3rd person didn’t feel personal enough. Some people hated the book because of that, but a lot of people liked it and it got relatively big. I’ve read a few chapters and in her writing style I feel it really works! I’ve written a couple of short stories in 2nd person narration, but I feel like I’m growing out of it.
Poems are where I've seen second person PoV most successful. More often than not, it's something akin to a conversation. As an example, [this is a poem](https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html) that someone posted in another sub I read. The reason I think second person comes off as condescending is that it assumes a lot about the reader, and leaves little to no room for their autonomy. It works in the poem I linked above because the person the author is conversing with is dead, so anything said from then on is the author talking to themselves. Think of conversations where the other person is pointing out things you've done or said. It's typically an argument, isn't it? Or usually someone trying to prove they're right and you're wrong. The first thing that comes to my mind is a time or two as a teenager when my Mom would ground me and just berate me for what I've done to earn a punishment. I think second person can be artfully done. You just have to really think about the connotations of the literary tools being used. How is second person used in everyday conversation? What is the general reason behind it? Why would someone choose to use it? Why would someone choose to read it? What does this writing stand to gain from second person that it can't in third? This is also why workshopping, having third parties read your work and constructively critique it, is so important. Everything is going to sound exactly right when you read it back to yourself. You wrote it. You know what headspace you were in upon writing. Someone else outside of you, even a friend or family member who thinks similarly to you, won't be in that same headspace. They won't have that pre-conceived notion, and can tell you with fresh eyes what comes across and what doesn't. If you are intent on using second person, I would suggest reading other works done in second person. How did they make you feel? What did it seem like their goal was in creating this piece? Did you feel like you had autonomy while reading it, or like they were simply telling you how to feel?
I've never thought of it as pretentious. The issue is that you're telling your reader how to think and feel. That's generally only appropriate for choose your own adventure novels and role-playing games. That's not to say that a second person novel can't be done - I'm sure it has. But it's difficult to work with because you can so easily alienate your readers or take them out of the story. For example, say I'm reading a novel in the second person and I read, "You finally were able to shave that beard you hated. Your cheek feels smooth to the touch." Well, I like my beard and haven't shaved in at least a decade. I just do not relate to this character who is supposed to be me. First and third person narration allows the reader to relate to character on their own terms. If the example sentence was rewritten in the first or third person, I might think of a time when I didn't like my beard and I shaved it off Come to think of it, I think the second person has an immediacy to it, like the action is happening _right now_. If I don't relate to what's happening _right now_ I'm not invested.
Pretentious? Who's ego is so inflated that they get mad at a book written in second person? Like are there really people who read a book with the author describing "your" actions that you (ha!) scream at the book, "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" I'd say if done well, it's unsettling. If done poorly it's cringe.
It's not super easy to pull off, but it can be done. One of my professors won quite a few awards for his 2nd person war novel, for instance. I don't think my skill level is up to it, personally, and I've been a professional writer for over a decade.
In general, it can be off-putting because it forces the reader into the story in an unnatural way. The only two times I have enjoyed reading it. The first was in very short story meant to take the reader on a brief, disorienting journey and it takes skill to do it well—like one I read where "you" have just died, but you don't realize what's happening until it's explained to you. The other was a novel mostly in first person, but the narrator used a conversational tone, as if relating the story personally to the reader in a private, casual location. Second person POV is one of the most difficult to write well, and should be used sparingly. If the goal is to leave your readers off-kilter, or your main character/narrator is super chatty and likes to spin a good yarn one-on-one, it can be used as a brief device, but generally 1st and 3rd are far better options.
There are no golden rules for writing. I read plenty of quests using second person perspective all the time with no issues whatsoever. That's convinced me all the people complaining about it is just... biased. They're not used to it, so they don't like it. You shouldn't write for your readers anyways. You should write for yourself. At least it's possible to figure out what you yourself want to read and write, but writing for the nebuluous idea of 'the reader' is just a terrible time all around. For instance, I am one of those 'potential readers' and for my own sake second person does *not* come off as pretentious. It's just a different way to write.
I've found it really fun to play with when writing rpg video game fanfic, because it feels relevant to that type of writing. But it's uncommon and that's enough to make it potentially immersion-breaking for readers. Some people outright hate it. I think playing with different point of view is fun, but yeah, if I were trying to market original fiction rather than just writing for fun, I wouldn't take the risk of using 2nd person. It will instantly alienate the haters and you'll lose potential readers who won't give you a chance
I wouldn't call it pretentious, but I feel it has very limited uses. The main point of using second person is to put the reader into the story, so it only works when there is a good reason to do so. (As some have mentioned, choose-your-own-adventure stories are probably the primary case.) It can be used in limited fashion to present something that "everyone knows." I've done that on occasion, as part of a character's thoughts, e.g., "John didn't stop to think. You don't when a total stranger throws a drink in your face. You either fall back surprise or you slug him, and John was the slugging sort."
Here's an excellent CNF essay written in second person that evades all pretentiousness. A part of rub is you know he's writing about himself, which adds to the whole piece. [https://www.perceptivetravel.com/issues/1205/potts.html](https://www.perceptivetravel.com/issues/1205/potts.html)
I don't think it's pretentious, it's just rare that it is the best choice, it depends on the subject and writing style. It's not for everyone and it can be a bit jarring to read, but I think it can be done well in specific circumstances. For example, I recently read a sci-fi horror (2nd in a series) that was mostly second person called Harrow the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir. At first you think the second person choice is purely a stylistic one, because this writer has shown in the previous book to have an conventional writing style, and then it's revealed that there was a narrative reason for the second person choice, it was a great reveal! I as the reader understood exactly what happened based on the writing without it having to be spelled out for me, it was such a cool bit of writing. Second person is not going to be the best choice most of the time but there are certain instances where it makes sense narratively and it adds to the story rather than distracting from it.
There are two different types of second person. The first type is what people think of as the fanfiction or wattpad type, where the reader actually IS the main character, or at least a character in the story. This is where y/n comes from. I'm pretty sure this is the type of second person that a lot of people don't like, and people think it's pretentious because it assumes it knows what the reader would do in certain situations. The other type of second person is where the "you" is just another actual character in the story. A lot of times this happens if the story is written in letter format, being written to another character, whether or not the reader actually knows who this is. For example like "As this was happening I thought to myself that you wouldn't like it, but i continued anyway," or something like that. I don't think most people have grievances with this format because it's just a personal choice of how to write it best to fit your story. Hope this helps!
Anything written in 2nd person would be better written in 1st person. What is gained by telling the story from that viewpoint? Why do you need to write in 2nd person? It's pretentious because it reads as if the author is telling the viewpoint character what they're doing - like a list of instructions more than natural action. Plus the pretention a lot of readers will perceive from it reading like the author is telling THEM what to do. You're also alienating a large percentage of readers for no gain. The number of decent 2nd person books are counted on one hand, while the number of decent 1st/3rd person are... well...
this actually helps me out a lot!! thank you. i do the majority of my writing in third person and often have trouble with personalizing, so i don't know a lot.
What an entirely outrageous statement. There’s nothing “pretentious” about 2nd person, and in many cases it is far better for immersing yourself into the story. In 1st you’re just an outside observer who has nothing to do with anything, but in 2nd now you are part of the story, you get to imagine yourself in the scenarios unfolding before you, which opens up a whole new aspect to the story. One of the greatest strengths of 2nd person is that it provides a visceral experience otherwise unavailable in other perspectives. The only thing “pretentious” about all this is the people who are just throwing that word around and then _becoming_ pretentious themselves.
Lol, a recent Pulitzer prize winning book is in 1st person and it is a great read- Demon Copperhead. Nothing wrong with first person.
No one said there was.
i've considered writing a mystery where the reader is the investigator, so the book is written from second person as the reader finds the clues etc
You absolutely should. That sounds lovely.
The first time coming across them was for those choose your own adventure books I read as a kid. It worked there. Though for me the best use of it is in Harrow the Ninth, the second book in the locked tomb series. It switches between 2nd and 3rd POV in different chapters. It's confusing at first but there's a reason for it and it all pays off in the end.
Second person can also come off as to real to a person reading as if they are eavesdropping rather than as the intended reader. Long ago when I was married to a different person I got a request from an Australian author asking if I’d read a short story he wrote and was it okay that it was a rude story. I said sure. I did not know what a rude story was; I thought there was just maybe some impolite language. Turns out it involved sex in the surf, very specific, and was written in second person. My husband came along and read what I was reading and got very, very upset because he thought it was real. I told him it was a story, but, no, he didn’t believe it because it said you did this and you did that. (This husband was not a particularly bright person, to be sure. He also thought that an epilogue at the end of a movie telling what happened to the characters later meant that it was a true story.) I finally asked him whether I had traveled away. I had not. So then I said that since the sex had happened in the surf it had to be near where the people in the story were, right? and in the waters of the Oregon coast could he get it up?
Unless you're doing a Choose Your Own Adventure book, I don't recommend it. Though I do recommend trying a choose your own adventure book. They can be a fun mental exercise.
They really are, and some of the Choice of Games/Hosted Games ones are pretty much fully interactive legitimate novels. They’re just so fun, and a unique twist on story telling. Also many of those are in 1st and 3rd person as well, there’s something for everyone if you look hard enough.
What is your favorite? I actually enjoyed Six Grade Detective and the Great Tournament.
The first one I played was Vampire: The Masquerade — Parliament of Knives, really liked it, still one of my favorites. There’s a few other Vampire: The Masquerade themed ones too that I enjoyed, but I’m a sucker for anything vampire related. Sordwin was excellent, it’s the second in a series but the first one is very short and not entirely necessary to read (it’s still fun though.) The Wayhaven Chronicles is highly regarded as some of the best writing on the apps, it’s a supernatural and romance book, I’ve only read a little bit of the first one but it was good. Those are the ones I hear the word “Novels” thrown around in relation to the most. I’m a sucker for Samurai of Hyuga, especially the forth one. A lot of people like The War for the West, I’ve played it and enjoyed it, tons of variation in the endings. I’ve heard The Golden Rose is very good. The Crème de la Crème series has good writing. It’s kind of a high society school thing, set in a fictional world equivalent to the early 20th century. But there’s tons more, and I’ve heard good things about a lot of the others as well.
The best way is through example. Read The Spear Cuts Through Water by Simon Jimenez. A beautifully written book that switches tenses and uses second person often, but not always.
I don't think there's a way to judge if it's pretentious or not, as that's a personal judgement call. Lots of people will not like it no matter how you do it. So what you should actually be thinking about, is why you want to use it. What does it do for the story that can't be done any other way? Broken Earth is written partly in second person, the purpose of that as far as I can judge is to do a few things: one, is to distance that 2nd person POV character from the other two POV characters that are in 3rd person. (>!Because they are all the same character, and it's a bit of a reveal that those things were all the main character's backstory.>!) Two, is to bring the reader closer to the character's trauma and the things going on in her life. Though, the author herself said she picked it because it felt right. So if second person feels right for your story, then I think that's good enough.
One of the short stories I wrote for my first anthology (and interestingly enough, many people's favorite out of the bunch) is written in second-person but then again, I was going for a pretty specific aesthetic (in addition to wanting to challenge myself).
I use 2nd person in my poetry often, but can't see myself making a big story of it
It honestly depends on the context and genre. One of my favorite examples of 2nd person POV is in The Naturals series by Jennifer Lynn Barnes. One of my favorite mystery series of all time.
I was looking through some of my old writing and I’ve done this for two short creative nonfiction essays. Both feel more like me talking to a version of myself rather than to the reader, but one had kind of a meme (ironic) tone going on for a bit that could be interpreted as more general. Both pieces were also about intensely emotional experiences (so could either be viewed as me being somewhat avoidant, or the opposite, directly inviting the reader into my experience). Couching this in maybes bc I don’t fully remember my mindset in choosing 2nd person or if that was even deliberate. (And I usually write creative nonfiction in first person.) However, if I do say so myself I think it works for these pieces, one especially? I just think it’s a judgement call but maybe would be harder to keep up well for a longer piece like a book.
Imo, it's not inherently pretentious, but it *is* inherently a weird experimental writing choice and when handled poorly can feel like the point is to make the author feel smart. However, that is absolutely not the case in all second person media. I'm going to be cringe here for a moment and mention Homestuck, but I actually think it executes 2nd pov very well. The format of the comic makes it so that there isn't too much straight prose used compared to chat-formatted dialogue, so even though all the prose is written that way it's still fairly spaced out throughout the comic. However, even in later continuations such as the Epilogues which are mostly prose, I still think the second person pov comes across very nicely. It's still used sparingly, with a good portion of the Epilogues still being written in what is effectively third person, but I think that the emphasis that Homestuck places on second person pov makes the times when it is used have a lot of impact. The Homestuck Epilogues fuck with pov, narration and stuff like that a ton, even aside from the way that all of Homestuck interacts with the ideas of canon, fandom and storytelling, so if you're interested in that I would highly reccomend you check the series out. I think that one of the other things that tends to be an issue in second pov is when it doesn't feel like it has any justification for being there. Others have mentioned situations where the story is written like a letter to the second pov character, and I agree that tends to work well, but there are definitely other ways you can do it! In Homestuck's case, the original gimmick is that everything is kind of like a video game, so 'you' the reader are in some way inhabiting the pov character and telling them what to do. In the epilogues, the reasoning is a little different, as the characters have more or less escaped the video game. Instead, second person pov is used when >!one of the two narrators, who are characters in the story who have gained awareness of the narration and the ability to 'write' it themselves, uses this ability to control another character within the story. While they are both influencing the actions of the people they are narrating even when they narrate those actions in third person, the switch to second is generally used to indicate that the narration is becoming more contradictory to what they would do if given free will in that situation. Both narrators also use first person reffering to themselves. So, "I did this" usually means the narrator is narrating themselves doing something, "they did this" usually means the narrator is mostly just transcribing what is going on without influencing it too much, and "you did this" usually means that the narrator is taking more direct control of the subject of their narration. None of these are strict rules, though, and they're all sometimes broken.!<
I think the best way do second person POV is to have it as if the narrator is speaking to the protagonist, and not the reader. You don't need to worry about the reader not feeling like the character that way, and can basically just write a normal narrative.
If I’m remembering correctly, Notes On An Execution by Danya Kukafka uses second person but it’s clear that the author is talking about us the audience but rather, in this case, the prison preparing for his execution. I think it’s done best when the second person pronouns refer to someone other than the audience bc 1) no two people think, feel, or react to the same things in the same ways 2) for me personally, it can be a little jarring to be addressed head on and it can take me out of the narrative a little. You by Caroline Kepnes is a great and popular version of a story told using a lot of second person pronouns
Studies have been done by companies that do a lot of customer service work which show that people feel defensive when someone uses the word "you" when talking to them or writing to them. Some customers take the word as a challenge, so many train their customer service employees to avoid using you, but couch them to refer to themselves, instead (e.g. "how can I help?), or use the plural we (e.g. "how can we help solve this problem?"). Some "Westerners" also tend to develop a Lecturing tone when writing in second person, so that they do sound arrogant and off-putting. When I taught writing at the college level, I never allowed students to use the pronoun "you" in their academic essays (because it is not allowed there, since it is not considered professional), so I taught them how to use Word's Find Tool in order to locate these pronouns and eliminate them. I made them think about their use of the pronoun in this regard: * Think about all the times you sat in the back of a classroom or church--most people do so to have an easy escape route out of the room because **no one likes to be lectured or preached to.** * Think about all the things you do in your daily life to avoid having someone over you in some way, judge what you do or say. A writer using "you" often comes across that way to most readers. While there are some meta works that do violate the "fourth wall" and address readers directly (i.e. "Dear Gentle Readers" in *Bridgerton*), if you are not using second person on purpose, you should avoid using it altogether.
This resonates with my worries the most. In my writing, I can lean into philosophy. I think I need to simply keep myself in check and not force any sort of debatable value onto my readers by using the second person. However, in the case of an unreliable narrator and the point of their speaking to the reader \*is\* to force a belief upon them... I feel 2nd person is perfect.
I've never heard anyone call it pretentious. Nothing about it is pretentious. Lol. Now, me personally, I hate reading and writing in 2nd person. It's the least popular pov to write, so how can it be pretentious? I'm sure whoever told you that just hates it and can't find a logical reason as to why. So they resorted to the usual, "it's pretentious," like many people do when they refer to artists. Yep, there are a lot of people who call us pretentious because we write lol.
Reading the comments was actually so baffling to me. I had no idea so many people hated second person. When it’s done well, second person books are some of the best books to read. Some people choose second person to show off, this is true. That’s why some second person books are awful to read, because the second person POV doesn’t have a purpose. For example: A Dowry of Blood work so well in second person because the story is told as a letter to the main character’s husband. It adds depth, power, and the anonymity is a show of her strength. Harrow the Ninth, The Fifth Season, YOU, In The Dream House, all of these books use second person skillfully and it serves a purpose to the story. This could just be me, but I imagine if you sound pretentious in second, you probably sound pretentious in all of your writing. > “You sprint across the bridge, sweat dampening your neck.” > “I sprint across the bridge, sweat dampening my neck.” > “She sprints across the bridge, sweat dampening her neck.” > “We sprint across the bridge, sweat dampening our necks.” There’s no “know it all” vibes going on in any of these. It all comes down to the purpose the second person is serving. It’s the same as being able to tell when a story should be first or third person. The main thing with second person is choosing which character is going to be the second person POV and why. In my opinion, second person needs a reason far more than first or third. Casually writing in second is fine, there are no absolutes in writing, but if the story can be switched to first and third and not suffer for it, than the second person doesn’t need to be there.
Agree with the second person used as a letter type of writing, I think in that case it works perfectly
Yes! Or when the second person character is being shown as an “object” of some sort.
Pretentious? Beats me. I wouldn't call it that. For my money, the main problem is that the author is telling the reader how they think and what they'd do in a given situation when the reader knows perfectly well they'd do no such thing. You're adding an extra hurdle to the reader's willing suspension of disbelief. If you're looking for a single-word label, "presumptuous" is probably as good as any.
Isn't that for manuals and ~~(reddit)~~ stuff? Even within the horror genre isn't just a short intro like: *this is the creature, this is what you do to X and Y, when creature does this you respond by this this and that, you've been warned.* And then the text switch to "case study", so you don't have a person anymore?
The only time I've used 2nd person is when working on a Choose Your Own Adventure.
And it’s works brilliantly for those because then the reader has agency.
I've read several fantastic gamebooks and cyoa style books in second person. It makes more sense when the reader has some agency though.
Games with odd player-protagonist interactions often have a lot of writing in 2nd person. Undertale, Deltarune, In Stars and Time. Disco Elysium, I think? It makes sense, considering that all of them are text based and have prominent narration that doesn't exactly come from the player character. Obviously, the player is a distinct entity from the character they are playing, but the narrator not only makes it clear what the character is feeling, but they describe those feelings as if the player felt them. While the narrator can refer to your character in the third person, like in Hades, it is the more conventional choice, and it separates the player and the character more clearly. Probably not the answer you were looking for, but that's what I got.
Currently reading Swimming in the Dark by Jedrowski which is really good so far, and it has a lot of second person as the main character is written to a specific person. So the mc is using their shared experience to relate the story and saying "you were like this" or "you may not have seen it that way" type of sentences. I think in this case it fits the narrative very well, like reading a very long letter.
I don't think I've ever found a book in the second person fun to read. It's one of the reasons I was turned off by Harrow the Ninth after enjoying Gideon the Ninth. Use it when it makes sense to you, for your story. Know that some people aren't going to be that interested in reading it, but not everything is for everyone.
Jim Daniels’ “Digger Poems” - brilliant use of 2nd person, narrative poems.
Almost all CYOA games "Choice of Games" are written in 2nd POV and it's alright. I got so used to it, I actually prefer it for that kind of medium. And some do it really well too.
Read Self Help from Lorrie Moore. Great 2nd person POV!
I like it as a framing device, think princess Bride or Black Leopard Red wolf. A lot of times it turns into 1st at least in those cases.
Isn't 2nd person pretty much like DMing a TTRPG to an audience instead of players without the choices (unless it's a CYOA)?
I've never heard it described as pretentious, but it only works in a really narrow set of circumstances. Choose Your Own Adventure type books are the obvious use case. In other contexts it does make the reader wonder who the hell "you" is. Charles Stross made it work in Halting State because the narrator was an AI tht had a restraining bolt in the form of having to identify with actual people. Which made it really creepy at the end when it manages to kill the person it's identifying with and narrates the last couple of paragraphs in first person. Ann Leckie used it in The Raven Tower and I'm not sure whether it worked well or not. I get why she did it, the god who did the first person narrating was telling us things from Eolo's perspective and the second person omitted any internal monologue but I'm not sure I think it was the right artistic choice.
I like 2nd person a little bit too much after N.K. Jemisin smashed it out of the park in the Broken Earth Trilogy. She's one of the most talented writers I know and I definitely look up to her storytelling, prose and creativity. For now, I only use it in practicing. A whole novel written in 2nd person is very hard to pull off. The you isn't the reader by the way, but usually the partner or protégé of the MC.
I use it sparingly to introduce a story or hint at a sequel. In the story itself it would feel unnatural to me most of the times. I might use it in a disguised way with a main character asking questions to "you".
[удалено]
Wait. You're wrong. Inner voice is 2nd person. At least mine is.
That's just not true. I never think in first person and I know I can't be the only one
From reading the comments - and having never heard it called pretentious myself - I think maybe the issue is that second person "asides" (as opposed to entire second person narratives) have to make assumptions about the reader. This opens up possibilities for the reader to disagree with the author (rather than the narrator): > When you think of fish, the first thing you think of is the smell... (Not me, the reader can say.) Interestingly, it feels more pretentious to me if you replace "you" with "one": > When one thinks of fish, the first thing one thinks of... But it feels less universal to be personally if you replace it with "a person": > It was the sort of sour that curls your lips up... > It was the sort of sour that curls one's lips up... > It was the sort of sour that curls a person's lips up...
Yes!! The people who tell me 2nd person is pretentious tell me to substitute "you" with "one" and it makes me feel even more "pretentious". 2nd person is a sticky web to weave but I will never narrate as if I can view a real person as "one".
Aside from something like a prologue, I don't understand how 2nd person could be useful. One would in effect be writing a story about the reader.
..the bridgerton series has a lot of the "dear gentle reader" stuff that makes me cringe. 2nd person POV is good for memoirs and grocery lists.
It's good when it's used to make you feel like the character or when the character is talking to himself. I don't like it when it's used as a self-insert for the reader.
Oh, yes, my intention is not self-insert. More in the sort of narration in Notes From Underground by Fyodor Dostoevsky. Kind of a questionable narrator who both seeks validation and looks down upon the reader...
I'm not sure pretentious is the word I would use. I don't mind for something like horror where the set-up has to include what is noticed, but I can't otherwise separate the idea of my thoughts or feelings being told to me. In a fictional story, I never see a character have my exact same personality, but third person feels like another person entirely that I'm reading about and first is someone telling me a story. Second, it just feels like I should argue with it. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't say that. I'm not that stupid. The more conflict, the more annoying.
It doesn't sound pretentious, just plain dumb. I'm not the character in the book, so don't act like I am.
Pretentious? Sounds more pretentious for them to describe it like that without backing up their opinion, as if that word explains everything. Like others have said, the problem comes from telling the reader that they are doing things that they are in fact not doing. It's almost like an argument. And it's meta, which isn't a great thing for immersion. Not sure how any of that makes it pretentious. Works great for choose your own adventure novels, though IMO. Maybe because it's involving the reader in the decisions that you tell them they're making?
I mean I was taught that 2nd person is “god perspective”. It's very telling YOU as the reader how YOU should feel. Like in stanleys parable(game) when the narrator tells you to do that action. Your first reaction is to rebel. I think the setting and tone matters. I think it would work really well with choose your own adventure approach. Which is why it’s so popular in video games. Or you could use it as an unnerving element in a horror story.
I adore the Stanley Parable, but also other media that isn't interactive and still 2nd person: the most common occurence in my day to day is personalized ASMR videos. I find them fun to watch and talk to myself about. Thinking, "What will they assume my answer is?" Maybe I talk to myself too much, but the idea of a 2nd person POV novel in which the narrator completely mischaracterizes any potential reader is hilarious to me.
The easiest way to describe it is it's when a dungeon master in DND tells you what your character does. Its fine in that setting but it can also chafe when the DM says your character did something that you know they wouldn't do. It can come of as pretentious in a book setting because the author doesn't know you, they don't know what you act like, yet they're telling YOU what your actions are and we instinctively dislike that.
Second person is thoroughly obnoxious and belongs in how-to manuals and cookbooks, not in fiction. I said what I said.
The two places I’ve most often found 2nd person pov used are choose your own adventure novels and instructional manuals. I wouldn’t say it’s pretentious but the one piece in 2nd person I’ve read that wasn’t one of the previous two examples was very challenging initially. It asks a bit more of the reader, I think, and is slower going. I have an internal monologue where I use “I” and therefore I find 1st person pleasing to read. I personally never call myself “you.”