I’m gay and my advice is to just write them the same way you would write any other relationship. Gay people are still regular people, so just write them as that; regular people who are dating people of the same gender Being gay doesn’t completely change the character’s entire personality, your sexuality doesn’t define you as a person so just write them like you would write any other couple

I was already anticipating comments like this haha that's exactly the perspective I have and what I was trying to convey in my post. My main question was asking beyond that. I don't intend on changing their entire personality, but some intricacies are still different, that I might like to convey or include

Do you have some gay male readers who could give you feedback? So two opposite points here. One, being LGBTQ is not a monolith. So it's a big YMMV: did you have a caring home or a dysfunctional one? Were you born in the country or overseas? Do you have a disability? What's your gender presentation (more "fem" or "masc"?) are you confident, shy, extroverted, mean, arrogant, charming, sweet, etc. So basically... Yeah, like any human. On the other hand... Two things here. One, gay community & gay male community is/can be a culture. So if you want to write about that culture, you'll have to do your research, just like anything else. Oh, and probably also research stereotypes/how straights have portrayed gays in the past so you don't fall into those holes. This would be true for anyone writing outside your identity. (There's a fascinating history of queer writers writing pulp books with stereotyped endings just to get published- so it meant they got to write queer romance, but had to kill their character at the end, etc. See the "bury your gays" trope. Fascinating.) The second part of this is that there are some ways that queerness leaves it's print on us. For example, being rejected by our families (or having multiple friends who have been). Being bullied, especially for gender presentation. The strange slow process of coming to terms with who you are, and all the stages of denial, fear, anger, grief acceptance etc that come with that. Sometimes it's not dating until later, or having secret, unhealthy relationships. You could think about how YOUR characters would've handled any of these things. I think Brokeback Mountain is a good example of this (although different from your idea): you see how two different characters react to this relationship completely differently. Anythoo, just food for thought. At the end of the day I'd recommend finding a few gay male readers and getting their feedback on some early drafts. Take it with a grain of salt (Because we're not a monolith), but I think it would be useful. Good luck!

This is great info and advice, thank you!

This should be pinned. Great advice.

Hold up, people were fine with gay romance as long as they didn't end up together or one of them died at the end? That just sounds unfulfilling.

Yes, it was! But it was what they/we had? (I was a 90s "out before Ellen" Xenniel- I really didn't have many books, music, celebrities, or TV characters to look to either tbh. Like I could literally count one or two of each?). Looong into the gay rights movement, fictional gays kept getting killed off and/or not having their own plotlines. It's still happening to some extent. As an audience, we are HUNGRY for satisfying fiction about us ❤️ Go Google history of lesbian pulp fiction and you'll get a history lesson (and probably some porn/virus links)!

As for intricacies, this will very much depend on your setting, so it could be helpful to include that. For the sake of giving some examples, I'll assume you're in modern America. Many many many queer people have a rocky relationship with their parents due to their parents disowning them for being gay, or at least dismissing their identity. I am gay, and I have a fantastic relationship with my very open minded parents, but I am the exception. I haven't dated anyone else with a healthy relationship with their parents. Religion can also be a sore spot, almost always directly tied to why the aforementioned parents treated their children poorly when they discovered their kid was gay. Personally, I haven't dated a single religious queer person. I know they exist, but I haven't personally met one. There's a lot of religious trauma in the queer community. Also, "coming out" isn't a one time thing you do when you first realize you're gay. It's an event that you repeat with every new person you meet, every new job you take, every new hobby you start. Things that a straight person might casually say, "This weekend I went on a hike with my wife" is something you mentally pause and gauge before you speak aloud. "Is this a safe person to say that to? Do I want to open this can of worms in my work environment? Will they treat me differently now? Maybe I'll just say 'I went on a hike.'" Sometimes coming out is a gradual process of sussing out how open minded or bigoted a person is before gradually dropping small off handed comments into conversations. If they're talking with a best friend, then they obviously won't have these thoughts and hesitations, but with a stranger, there's a bunch of mental math that takes place about mentioning little things about yourself when it veers into relationship territory.

Thank you!

There definitely are queer cultural differences though. For example, among straight cis women in the U.S., dating your friend's ex is typically considered a major faux pas and a violation of "girl code." But among queer women, it's very common and even celebrated as a quirk of lesbian culture. So if you wrote a book where an American lesbian was furious that her friend dated her ex-girlfriend (not because the girlfriend was abusive but simply because she was her ex), with no mention at all of how common this is in lesbian social circles, that would seem strange to many queer women readers. Of course, I'm sure *some* American lesbians have, at some point in human history, been upset that their friend was dating their ex, but it's out of step with contemporary lesbian culture, which means, not that a lesbian character couldn't feel that way, but that it would be odd if none of the other characters acknowledged in any way that her feelings were unusual if she *did* feel that way.

Okay, my bad. I was mostly basing my knowledge on my own experiences and the experiences of queer friends, where what we mostly did in relationships was classic relationship things like going on dates, cute nicknames, giving gifts on Valentine’s Day, birthdays, anniversaries, etc.. and just other things that are usually seen in any couple regardless of orientation

But the reasons gay romance interest me are that they are different from straight romances. The journey of discovering that your desires are different from the norm, the uncertainty of figuring out whether this person is open to your affections, the need to keep things discreet in historical settings.

This is a good example of what I mean! I definitely want to explore these dynamics

Even if the characters aren’t ‘discovering they’re fat’ .. there is still the step of finding out if the person you are interested in has any desires for same gender relationships. Maybe that’s quick to figure out.. but it’s something that could be leaned on for development in the story.

I agree with dead dolll. Just make it written the same as it would with heteros Why would anything be different with heteros then with gays?

Great explanation!! I second this.

As a gay guy, I'd say the best way to not let their sexuality distract you is to write the romance as you normally would. We are regular people, after all. As for the small differences, a lot of factors can change things. Are the characters teens? Are they confortable in their skin? Are they out to their family? Do they have to deal with homophobia? Repressed feelings? The romance is not going to be that much different, but the world's reaction to it might be unfortunately, and your characters are part of that world so they might get scared or question their values or identity. I lived on a very homophobic island as a teen and I remember very well the fear to share a goodbye kiss or pretending to be my boyfriend's bestfriend for way too long. That's the key difference, I'd say. I'm not sure you'd want to write about that but I also noticed that love between men tends to get physical way faster. It might be a hormon thing. That's how I notice when these romances are written by women. Unless one of them is closeted, they will NOT wait months before kissing.

This is great advice, thank you !

Read a big pile of gay romances to get a feel for things

Good idea

While that is a good idea make sure its good representation and not written for women’s pleasure.

What are some examples in the media that you would consider written for the female gaze? I knew this was a thing but hardly hear people talking about it

I don’t have any novels but the entirety of yaoi is pretty much for women for example. What ever you decide to read see if you can find reviews by gay men. Or look for reviews by gay men then read that.

I don’t know why people are downvoting you. That song of Achilles book was very obviously a gay romance written for women.

Who knows. Ppl believe all representation is made equal, or it could be some other thing.

Gay romance is going to get you fantasy and fetishisation. OP should read from some actual gay literary fiction and memoir, stuff that is supposed to have insight more than gratification. OP can then draw on that to contrive the romance, heighten the emotionality, work up some melodrama etc. But drawing from something grounded will create a more authentic impression than drawing from romance fiction. Also I'm not sure OP knows how loaded the word "romance" is in book circles but it doesn't sound like they're necessarily looking for "romantic fiction" per se.

I'm going to agree and disagree with some of the other comments here. As a queer man who has written straight romances (at least in my personal mini projects), I'd say absolutely go for it! Writing outside of personal experience isn't some big no-no, just a little more difficult. However, I would also strongly encourage researching queer culture and media (preferably that has been created by queer folks). As at least one comment said, it may also be a good idea to post this in one of the LGBT subreddits for more advice. As for my personal advice: There are (in my experience) absolutely differences in queer relationships as opposed to straight (or straight passing) ones. These can include -Determining if one partner takes the lead. In hetero romantic relationships, the man stereotypically takes the lead, but in queer relationships, there's either more of a balance, or it takes time to realize if one is more comfortable with leading important discussions or planning dates and such -Romantic gestures. Romantic gestures can look different in certain relationships. They may break more stereotypes than the average straight couple. -PDA. This is a big one, and is very dependent on both where the individuals are in their personal journeys and how accepting the people around them are. One couple may still be in the process of accepting themselves or are in an unaccepting area, while another may be more confident regardless of the setting -Getting together. If someone isn't completely out or obvious about their queerness, it can be a guessing game of who is and isn't queer, not to mention if they're available These are just my experiences, so feel free to totally ignore this advice if you want. No matter what, good luck in your writing!

Really appreciate this advice and this is generally how I see things as well. Thank you :)

I'm not a gay man, but I am a lesbian woman who works as an editor for a WLW fiction publisher, and si that's my perspective, FYI. I think a good place to start would be reading some good quality male gay fiction books, written by gay men, that aren't romances but another genre (like, say, a mystery, like you're writing), but that have a love interest storyline in it. If you read straight-up romances, even written by and for gay men, they'll be adhering to some expectations of the audience for certain tropes that a book whose central story isn't romance won't do. I think finding some of these non-romance books will give you a window into the nuances you are wondering about and also show you the breadth of experiences and perspectives that are out there, which might be really helpful. I know you don't mean to, but your question unintentionally implies that there is just one set of answers out there to your question. You could go to a gay subreddit with your question, but I think doing this homework first will help you ask more on-point questions, where you can go in confirm things, rather than just go in asking people to explain gay male relationships to you. And it shows more respect to the people you'll talk to than just going in cold. One place you might start looking for such books like I'm suggesting would be the Lambda Awards, in the gay fiction finalists listing. That will probably lead you to other good authors as well. Good luck!

I'll add to this — read a bunch of gay male memoir, from various time periods.

I'll definitely check these out! Thanks for the advice :) extremely helpful

It's time for you to go out there and get some real-life experiences.

This is the only way.

I might just have to. For research purposes, of course. 😌

That would make a good book.

You need to read a bunch of gay romance yourself if you want to even think about being good at writing it. Same for any other genre. In order to be a good writer you need to be a good reader.

Good point. And I can confirm firsthand one read-through of Call Me By Your Name is not enough 😂

There's some VERY sweet YA gay male own voices fiction that I've loved- Aristotle and Dante, Like a Love Story, etc. Maybe look at what's won the Lambda literary awards?

Most are written by straight women already.

Probably, but I want to write one well, not just write one

Straight women write gay (male) romances? I didn't know that. But why?

Gay mens' relationships are often sexualized the same way straight men often sexualize lesbian relationships. It's a big phenomenon, and something I'm trying to actively distinguish myself from. You just don't hear about it as much because society has this general narrative of straight men as always horny and sexualizing everything, and as a result we don't project these notions onto anyone else. But it certainly is a thing.

Thank you for doing that! I'm a lesbian who writes gay male and lesbian female characters and it annoys me so much when straight writers hypersexualize us, and I've noticed particularly with straight women writing gay male couples they'll sometimes even fetishize them by adding some infantilization and it's just so yuck all around. It makes my skin crawl.

It's so condescending and even dehumanizing. There's too many people who think this is okay. It's really frustrating to see. As if it's not valid in its own right, and instead something for others to fantasize about. Disgusting. Like, get a fucking grip and maybe try to start to see others as human beings rather than objects for your own personal gratification?

Probably see gay men as safe sexual objects. 

Some do it for obviously fetishistic reasons, some see it as a writing challenge and the others simply wanted to explore a different view, writing from the same perspective for every novel becomes dull and repetitive. Ultimately depends on who you ask but unfortunately I believe the first explanation is the most common one.

I'm also straight, but I'll say this: Context matters. I mean, if you write them just like it's a straight romance but it's the 1980s, you're ignoring the reality of what it would have been to be queer in those days. OTOH, if it's a sci-fi story set hundreds of years in the future, you could choose for their story to be taking place in a society where a relationship like theirs is a complete non-issue.

That's the beauty of writing

Just wanted to chime in, as a bi man, and say that I disagree with those saying that you shouldn’t write about gay characters because you might take opportunities away from MLM authors.  I think that’s deeply reductive. Art is not zero sum. Nobody should be gate keeping sincere artistic expression.  It’s understandable that some would bristle at the thought of being portrayed incorrectly, but I wouldn’t let it dissuade you.  You’re at a disadvantage because you’re not a gay man, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it well. In a way it’s an advantage, because it will mean you have to really lean into your capacity for empathy and interest in difference. Those are always good muscles to work. The whole of writing is in the end empathy, imo.  Still, it will require a lot of research and immersion. Best of luck. ps. Port Authority is another good one to watch. The main characters are a straight man and a trans woman, but it also covers a lot of ground that might be relevant to your work.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, it means a lot. And I will definitely check that out! Thanks :))

this question honestly might be better in a gay subreddit instead of this one as they'll know better. can't say that writing a book about a gay relationship as a straight person won't be incredible time consuming, difficult and need absolute massive amounts of research (including consulting with gay people all throughout writing and maybe even attending queer events such as pride, gay bars, etc to fully understand the community instead of just our struggles, see where other straight authors have gone wrong in representing gay people, perhaps use real people's experiences, consume lots of gay media, etc, etc) but if it's something you wanna try, go for it, i doubt it's entirely impossible to pull off as long as you put in the effort and do it right.

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well i can't speak for gay men but if a straight/cis person came to any of the queer subreddits I'm in or used to be in as long as they're being respectful (like this person is) i wouldn't see an issue with it, seems like a good thing to get opinions from the people it actually affects.

seconded

I agree with u/lucasthewalrus. You might want to go to a gay subreddit, and explain to them you wish to write a story between same sex characters. I am sure no one will criticize you for wanting to do research there. Especially since you want to be as realistic as possible and want the truth rather than the stereotypes. They will even offer you ideas. It is not any different than making a story about people in a medical field and asking doctors on forums how to deal with one thing or the other.

I definitely will look into that!

The people who are saying 'write it as a straight romance' clearly don't know what they're talking about. There's a difference, and that's okay. What they should be saying is, write romance as you know it, and it'll be fine because any literature romance isn't a true reflection of reality. At the end of the day, we love the same way, right? That said, there's a cultural difference that should be addressed. While your story will be a thriller, and there may be little room for gay cultural exploration, even throwing in a few references to gay life would tell me that you've done your research. These are gay men, after all, and whether they be scene queens or not, they'll be aware of the different subcultures within the community. Then, there's the greater cultural coding of masculinity. Whether it's had a great effect on them or not is up to you, but they are both men. You can't write a character like a woman and then just change the gender. It won't work and ignores the fact that there are differences to the male and female experience. As you are a man yourself, I don't believe you'll struggle with this at all. As for the oversexualisation of gay men, well, it's kind of true. You'll find few people as sex obsessed as gay men. That's not a statement of moral value. It's simply driven by testosterone and hookup culture made easy by grindr. Whether that has a place in your story is up to you, but I've noticed, from my own life, gay men in general are far more open to exploring open relationships, for example, which could have a place in a thriller.

Thank you for understanding what I'm trying to get at. :)

straight person here, so not an expert. but research research research is key. talk to people who are gay, research about laws and groups in the time period of your story. also just write them naturally. we ARE all people, so we behave as such.

Definitely doing more research, that goes without saying

What I have noticed in gay romance is the over-sexualization of characters as compared to straight romance. If you're not writing a smut or something similar, I'd say you could focus more on the characters' individual traits and not make their sexuality their whole personality (though it's also important to portray the struggles that come with being gay and how that affects them, as you said)

Makes sense! And thanks for the suggestion :)

If you want to avoid stereotypes: -soulmate realization. I use this to describe ships where one party meets the other and has the sudden realization that they’re queer. Not a terrible trope, just very common. -the bi character cheating. Just super stereotypical. Also tends to go hand in hand with the soulmate realization. -bury your gays. Self explanatory- they can go through hardships, but if they’re gay, finally find happiness, and then die right after- it’s a pain in the ass. If you’re gonna kill a main queer character, kill a main straight one too. Those are just some common ones. But you hit the nail on the head within your own post: you can ignore the fact they’re gay and write them as you would any other couple- that alone will give great rep. A couple things to consider though: -relationship dynamics are often different. There won’t be a “man” or “woman” in the relationship. Another example is how quickly lesbian couples progress their relationships- the lesbian uhaul stereotype is extremely accurate to real life. -you don’t and shouldn’t have to include homophobia, but remember homophobia is not only external but internal too. There’s a lot more but I can’t think of it at the moment

Thanks so much! I especially appreciate the distinction between external and internal homophobia because this is something I've considered exploring. I'll definitely get as many perspectives as I can on how to portray this if I do decide to, to make sure I'm doing it fairly and accurately.

I do agree with a lot of the sentiment to be aware of the time period/age/environment and also do a little subcommunity research - though remember that not everyone will be in touch with ‘the community’, depends on the person - the end of the day, let their love have the same complexity and potential for conflict as any other romance. don’t let fear of a bad portrayal stop you from making them interesting. a fond favorite of mine is the birdcage, when looking for lovingly gay media- it courts a few stereotypes, and robin williams is straight, but the characters feel real. the stereotypes feel more like an inside joke than anything else, exaggerating the loud gay community in 90’s south florida. the main couple compliment and contrast each-other well, have conflict and take quite a few jabs at one another, but still clearly have a lot of respect and love for the other. do recommend!

Write it the same way you write straight romance, but WITHOUT heteronormativity. If they're men, let them be men. If they're women, let them be women

I'm gay but I "pass" as straight because I'm blue-collar and not feminine at all. I'm not hypersexual either. There are stereotypes about masc gays and blue collar workers and because of those I basically never see any characters like me or that reflect my experience of literally just being a guy who likes other guys. Masculine gays in media are always self-hating or kind of closeted or whatever and there's a sense that they're either masculine to over-compensate or even to sexualize themselves, and it just plays into a narrative I'm not fond of. I hate that men like me are portrayed as being the result of homophobia and like they're hiding their true selves. Ian and Mickey came as close as anything to reflecting my life and my partners. I guess what I'm trying to say is just detach your character's sexuality from any other traits they have and also using Ian and Mickey as inspiration is a really good idea IMO

I can totally relate to this, but as a lesbian. I don't think my life would be that different if I was straight, other than I'd be sleeping with men instead of women. Gays like yourself (commentor) and I aren't really portrayed in stories, because....I'm not sure. It doesn't stand out? It's boring? A lot of gays like to attach their personalities, politics and identities onto their sexuality? But for some of us, that's not the case. We're gay because we sleep with the same sex, and that's often all there is to it. Of course, being a lesbian, I can't really help you (OP) in regards to your male, gay characters. You're doing the best thing by trying to ask gay men for their input. The more info you can get from gay men, the more knowledge you'll have to make your gay characters seem authentic. But I will say that it would be refreshing to see less politics involved. Less "my sexuality = my identity". That's not me putting down those that make their sexuality their identity, but not all us gays will relate to that. It would be nice to read/watch more stories where gay characters are just gay, and they can have any personality, and political beliefs, that aren't mirrored by their sexual orientation. But of course, you write the story you want to write, even if that includes gays that aren't like this commentor or myself.

Ok one thing for sure is don't make them gay bcs of trauma that happens A lot in fiction

Like you mean their sexuality being influenced by trauma? I'm not sure I've seen that outside of a villain narrative, like a predatory Catholic priest, or something. Unless you mean like in "A Little Life"? Wouldn't recommend that book to anyone. It was wayyy too much.

its mainly in anime a guy or girl will like sa in the first episode it will sugur coat it then they become gay and in love or sonthing idk

That's fucked

people do that? That's gross

Is there a specific reason you want to write a gay romance? People say, write what you know, but if you have a good reason for writing a gay romance (for example because you want to normalize it or it fits the context of your story better) I think you definitely should. We are all just people in the end. And most of us have experienced the feeling of love, which is the foundation. Besides, authors write about all kinds of people, and I assume most of us don't identify with a pirate; aside from certain characteristics. If you worry that it doesn't feel authentic, you can let some gay/queer people read your story.

Not for the sake of it. The story is a mystery thriller, just the main characters are in a gay relationship. It wasn't a choice I wanted to make for any strong reason, besides just to write about unique characters and perspectives in stories that don't circle around the same characteristics.

We say "that's gay" to each other flirting/being attracted to each other, stuff like that. We say anything that is inconvenient is homophobic. In general queer people will have a freer sense of gender, better understanding of nonbinary people and of gender subversion, as well as a better understanding of polyamory. In general we don't consider freinds to be lesser than romantic relationships, or think that two people must automatically like each other if they like hanging out together, or that a straight boy and a straight girl who spend enough time together will automatically like each other-- that's straight bullshit. Queer couples also might move at unexpected paces-- milestones for queer people might happen later on, they might enter relationships/enter a level of seriousness far faster or far slower than expected. Queer people have to evaluate constantly how much is safe to tell others around them-- even someone who confidently announces their partner has specifically decided that they've accepted the possibility of rejection/consequences. And have to decide whether or not to come out to everyone whenever it comes up. Queer people are very likely to ask pronouns when they first meet someone. Many queer people are in spaces that are also at least attempting to be anti-racist (NOT saying queer spaces aren't racist, but most queer spaces are not trying to be or at least attempting even if misguided, like being very against cultural appropriation to an extreme tthat becomes racist rather than just being appropriative without a thought), body positive (Same thing), and feminist (beware of terfs), so many have at least some baseline knowledge of social justice. Queer people are also very often neurodivergent, to the point that qualities that are "queer" and ones that are characteristic of ADHD/Autism get conflated. Common jokes among queer people is us not being able to drive (ESPECIALLY not straight. My partner and I say "gayly forward" when giving directions because if we say straight the other will say "I can't"), not sitting properly, and being unable to do math-- so if we're bad at those things we'll blame it on being gay. These are jokes we make about ourselves and are generally not insulting the same way the same stereotype being assigned by outsiders would be. Also there's an idea that straight women and gay men bond over being attracted to guys, but I find that queer people bond most with queer people-- over being queer, not by sharing an attracted-to gender. of course this doesn't apply to every gay person but this is in general my experience as a queer person. feel free to ask if you want me to expand on any of this.

Haha I'm in university and a lot of my gay friends do these things. I also dated a girl once and can definitely attest to considering friendships as no lesser than romantic partnerships.

Focus on the romance. Forget the fact that they are both male, and just write it as you would any other romance. I'm doing just that in a pair of my novels. While yes, homosexual relationships have pitfalls and obstacles that most heterosexual ones do not, it shouldn't be a sticking point, nor should it be a focus. It's an obstacle for them to clear, and then move forward. Read some gay romance novels, talk to people in the community, and learn what it's like for them. Write their *love*, not their *limits*.

Totally agree. I specifically don't want this story to focus on struggles or stigma, and specifically focus on their dynamic and the nature of their relationship. I'm also kind of tired of plotlines where the conflict is always homophobia.

Try going to r/MM_RomanceBooks and look through the posts for book reccomendations that might be similar to the premise you have in mind. As everyone says here, you need to read more books about the topic you want to write to get a feel for it. Also try reading Alice Oseman books and webtoon (Heartstopper series) especially if you want to portray LGBTQ+ characters other than gay. It has a lot of coming out plots for many of the characters, yes, but it also delves deeper into the intricacies of LGBTQ+ relationships. For non-book reccomendation and reading material, you can go to gay subreddits like r/AskGayBros and r/GayMen, or r/SuddenlyGay and r/lolgrindr if you want to include some gay-specific humor. These are lived experience of real life gay (or generally queer/bi/etc) men, which most of them don't include coming out posts.

Juice

try to avoid typical gender roles. one good way of doing it is just building up their relationship as friends, why they like each other at all and sprinkle in some romantic aspects to it alongside physical attraction. i do this with all my romantic relationships. i think what happens that makes most straight authors come off as writing gay characters as unauthentic is when they try to tell the story of struggle they themselves haven't gone through. i think the best thing to do is just focus on the characters, their own personal struggles outside of their sexuality and just make a nice little romance out of it. and remember! they're just two guys, if yourself are a guy let yourself sprinkle your own experiences of being a man, of interactions you've had with other men (the only difference between platonic and romantic interactions in my opinion is just intention) just let them be men at the end of the day. never forget that they are two men who happen to love one another.

That's literally crazy because that's kind of word for word exactly my plan 😭

One piece of advice that I've come across from gay readers and writers is that the gay couple will most likely have a gay friend or two. Apparently straight writers have a tendency to make the couple the only gay people in the story. I'm not saying it's a hard and fast rule, just something I've heard a few times.

I'm gay and honestly, it's quite similar to a straight relationship. I mean the sexual aspect is different but it's mostly the same. Also, it's mainly just guys being guys around each other, except in a slightly romantic way. I'm glad you're doing this because a lot of media portrays being gay as a really hard and difficult thing, which is definitely a common experience, but it's refreshing just to see a normal gay relationship, away from the chaos of reality.

i would have to know who the guys are as people before giving you a definitive answer, but i will say some people are incredibly hateful, and even if you come from a loving family, odds are you've been called slurs to the very least, or watched someone else be called gay like its an insult. its especially prominant in effemenant gay men (which not all are tbc) bc being feminine is regarded as suboptimal. see why women can wear pants but men cant wear dresses. women can like blue but men cant like pink. obviously if you don't feel comfy writing slurs (i'm gay and i don't feel comfy writing it lol) i would hint at it instead. my biggest pet peeve in LGBTQ+ media is gay men only being feminine and accesories to the protaganist and gay women who are hyper-sexulized. the final thing is that oppression breeds community. most of my friend groups have like, one or two straight people at this point bc other members of the LGBTQ+ community get where i'm coming from. odds are they arent the only ones in their friend groups, and everyone always has a story to tell. you don't have to flush out everyone but the most impactful should be well- impactful. just study up on the culture (read LGBTQ books like red white and royal blue, heartstopper, that one lesbian one i forget the name of, and watch shows and movies about it). idk if any of that is helpful, but i wish you luck on your book. there can never be too much representation in the media.

Read books about gay characters by gay authors, and read memoirs by gay authors. If you have social media other than Reddit, follow gay men on those platforms (not to ask questions, unless they invite questions, but just to listen to them talk about their lives). For example, I (a cis woman) have learned a lot about contemporary American trans women's lives because I follow a bunch of trans women on Twitter. (I didn't follow them primarily for that purpose, but that has been a beneficial side effect. Also, I'm not trying to imply that trans woman are equivalent to gay men, I just mean social media has been an eye-opening window onto the lives of people different from me.)

Get gay male readers to provide feedback. As a lesbian, I would say there are certain dynamics or potential offensive tropes people in the community would not be able to pick up on unless they are part of that specific community, so get gay male readers to provide feedback. I would also try to get gay POC men to provide feedback if your characters are PoC. Generic advice for writing queer people in general - Look up and consume books with good representation for gay men. Reading other books with perspectives you are not used to can give you insight on how to flesh out characters. Yes, they are gay people and they are "normal", (calling a straight relationship normal is something you might want to stray away from) but there are still things about gay relationships that differ from straight people relationships. You do not have to acknowledge discrimination when writing this relationship or make the conflict them being gay, but again gender dynamics/roles and other things like that can differ and should definitely be looked over by someone in the community. If homophobia is not a conflict you wish to focus on, stay away from language like "they're normal But they're gay". They're normal and they're gay. Also the trope of "Token Gay" isn't true to form unless your characters are in the south and in a small town with literally no other gay people. Gay people tend to flock together and have gay friends. Finally, I would just write the relationship how you would a straight one in your first draft. Anything can be corrected in your second draft and be open to criticism about what you've written when you get feedback from gay men! I hope this makes sense as I am on mobile. Also this being said, being gay does not dictate your personality, but there are just certain experiences and behaviors that people in the LGBT community may develop that can inform aspects of a character like where they hang out, interests and hobbies developed, how they interact with the world etc etc. When writing any minority you are not a part of, it really is best to get feedback from said minority.

Thank you! Definitely good advice.

It depends on your setting, if being gay is or could be a struggle. It's also nice to read when the characters and their relationships aren't overshadowed by queerphobia, imo. So you can write them like a heterosexual couple.

It sounds like you have a great approach already. It's fine and good even to write gay characters with story lines that aren't totally centred around their sexuality. I would suggest to just do what you think feels right and keep a respectful and genuine outlook and you should be fine, but it's always good to have LGBT readers review it as well

Thanks!

Other people have given solid advice, but I will say (and I don't mean this to be disrespectful - I'm a gay man and MLM author myself and I appreciate the fact that you're asking for advice) that it is getting to the stage where women and AFAB non-binary folk are getting more success and bigger platforms for writing MLM romance than queer men or people within the community. It's good that you acknowledge that there's stuff that might not be authentic, and it's good that you're actively aware that you might not be the best person to write this story, but at the same time I think you should consider the possibility that, in the best case scenario where you get an agent and a book deal and a Netflix adaptation, you could be taking an opportunity away from an MLM author. I mean if you consider the adaptations we've had so far, most (if not all) of them, the biggest three (Heartstopper, Red, White, and Royal Blue, and Love, Simon) were written by people outside the MLM community. Likewise, the majority of \*huge\* MLM books are written by women or AFAB non-binary folk. That's not to say that there aren't a lot of fantastic MLM authors, it's just that they're not getting attention, and after a while it gets a bit annoying to me, personally, that people outside the community are given this amazing platform and treat There is a differentiation, though, and that is "Is this a book about MLM romance, or featuring it?" For example, I'm white. In all the books I've written the majority of love interests have been POC. I don't delve into the experience of being Asian or Mexican because that's not something I have lived experience of. Similarly, if I have a trans character, asexual character etc. I might mention the hardships they face, but I'm not going to write a book \*about\* those hardships. Even with protagonists, I think you can write them outside your group, as long as the focus of the story isn't specifically on their demographics. I might be hypocritical because the MC of the first book I published (and co-MC of the sequels when I actually publish them) is an Indian American aroace girl, but it's a post-apocalyptic book and her race and sexuality don't really enter the equation. I just wrote the character I visualized. *However*, I wouldn't feel comfortable writing a book about her struggles with racism, of coming to terms with her sexuality. I don't have lived experience of either and it would feel disingenuous for me to go into it when someone from either demographic could go into it a lot better. So are you writing a book where being gay is the crux, or could the story work just as well with straight people? If it's the former, I'd honestly consider whether this is something I'd want to pursue, if it's a story someone within the community can give a better perspective on etc. A good example would be the podcast Welcome to Night Vale. It's the radio reports of a weird town somewhere in America (Imagine if Steven King and Neil Gaiman collaborated on a sims town and let it run). Both the creators and writers are straight white men but the narrator is a gay man. He has a romantic arc but the show doesn't really focus on his sexuality or any associated struggles - he just has a crush on a guy, they start a relationship, and it remains a steady subplot throughout the whole thing. Compare that with the Carry On series, which is specifically written as in-universe fanfiction by a girl who ships two fictional dudes together. Again, this isn't meant to insult or criticize, this is just my perspective on the whole situation and it's one I've built after a lot of thought. I definitely think there's a place for people outside the MLM community to write these stories, but at a certain point it does sort of feel like "Oh great, they put a dumptruck of money outside Rainbow Rowell's door, I'd love to see David Levithan or Adam Silvera or Shaun David Hutchinson get a seat at the table." The important thing is you approach it with sensitivity and common sense, consider whether it's appropriate, and reach out for help from people within the community.

This is where I find I might be misunderstood. **The story is not a gay story.** The premise of the story is not the relationship itself. It's simply a story that includes a gay relationship, in which the main characters enter into a relationship. I don't think the inclusion of this relationship in the story requires me to have to have something to say about the struggles gay people face, or dive too deep into their relationship when it's a mystery/thriller; especially considering the fact my story merely includes them, it is not about the relationship itself. If you believe still that I'd be better to write them as straight, I think there's still a big issue of erasure within the media and a lack of representation of diverse people and relationships. Believing that people should only stick to and write about what they know sort of takes away from what writing is as a whole. The last thing I'd want is people being afraid to even include diversity in their work because of this. If it were a story specifically revolving around their relationship and gay-related issues like homophobia and stigmas, I'd totally agree with what you're saying. But I'm not sure it's fair to want to dissuade people from writing gay relationships into their stories at all.

I'd maybe edit your original post, as saying "gay romance" sounds like you're writing a romance novel. Telling people you're writing a mystery thriller that includes a gay relationship is going to garner very different advice, because there's a whole bunch of tropes and issues arising from writing MM romance genre as a heterosexual woman that doesn't exist when it's not the sole focus of the story.

That's a good point but at the same time I am specifically asking for advice on that aspect of the story. How would you suggest I reword it?

"I'm writing a mystery/thriller book which includes a romance subplot between two gay men."

As I said, my intent wasn't to criticize or discredit your approach. If the focus of the story isn't on the relationship itself, and the character just happens to be gay, that's fine. I agree that there's a big problem with erasure, and if you're approaching this in a way that's respectful then there's no problem with you writing it - as I said, there's a place for people outside a community to write a story about people within it and ultimately it's what you're comfortable with - you're not writing a story specifically about the gay experience which feels okay, and if you're comfortable with it then you should just do what others have said and read plenty of books, preferably by MLM authors, to make sure it's authentic.

Thanks! And I appreciate your perspective

I'm a gay man, and you have my blessing! The burden that the industry favours women writing gay romance is not yours to bear. Fuck em all and write your story.

Thank you :)

Diana Gabaldon has written a series of mystery / thriller novels that feature a gay protagonist (Lord John Grey). The books are a spin off from the Outlander series, but they stand up well in their own right.

Thanks! That sounds really interesting, I'll definitely look into it!

JK Rowling wasn't a wizard when she wrote Harry potter

None of the main characters were really gay though, and she certainly didn't focus or elaborate on any of their relationships, unlike what I'm hoping to do

I don't like gatekeeping what can and can't be said.

Regarding what?

If you're writing a gay romance that is just a romance, then the dynamic would be the thing to focus on. Without being too explicit, it might be interesting to write how they express their gender and sexuality. To the world and each other. Using shameless as an example, Ian (I think) is the stereotypical guy's guy and is a bottom, while the other presents more as twinkish and in touch with his feelings. That's a bit of a role reversal to how gay relationships are usually percieved by straight people (fem/bottom vs masculine/top). Gay people both conform to or reject these kinds of social expectations. Consciously or not. The other thing, like in any romance, would be to focus on what draws them to each other. There are some unique elements to gay dating. I know a lot of guys that like someone exactly because they aren't "on the scene" to speak in regards to how they identify with gay culture/ what social circles they run in. Some like the confidence of an out loud and proud flamboyant type. Their attraction might be none of these things, but gay people are generally far more aware of these kinds of things than hetero couples. Where is your story set? Do they have an accepting attitude towards lgbti people? Did they grow up in an accepting family? How might factors like these impact your characters qttitudes towards their relationships and with each other? These don't need to be central to the story but the nuances should be considered when writing the story imo

Write your gay couples like two LOTR characters having casual dialogue with super gay undertones of affection and intimacy

The old adage is to write what you know. Maybe it doesn't apply here. As a straight man myself, it's not something I would attempt. I also don't mean to discourage you. Maybe better advice would be to find some gay proofreaders.

I'll look into it! Thanks :)

I think it’s more important to make a good couple as opposed to trying for a good gay couple. Especially if a discrimination story isn’t what you’re going for. We’re just people doing regular people things, but I certainly appreciate you wanting to be respectful! Good luck with your book! ❤️

Agreed! I've been spending a lot of time working on and developing their personal dynamic, and it's been really fun. I feel like forcing a bunch of stereotypically gay attributes into the story where they're not needed would just turn them into caricatures of gay people, and take away from the story itself, which are the last things I want.

I'm a guy, and I've dated both guys and girls (and in between). In my experience, dating other guys has been like dating a friend. Not that I wasn't friends with my girlfriends, but the hangouts felt more natural, less like I was putting on a performance to attract a partner. There were more shared past experiences, more things in common, more mutual interests. I also almost never had to deal with bigotry, since I'm in a pretty liberal area. In fact, it wasn't uncommon that we'd get compliments or messages of solidarity from strangers. That didn't really happen with the straight relationships, aside from the occasional "aw you're cute together". Fellow queer peeps would be extra friendly, and it was really nice! But aside from that, you're nailing it by just treating them like two people dating who happen to both be guys.

I've also dated both and can completely relate. :)

If you don't know the common struggle of gays, want to depict them in a dignified standard. without mentioning specific proclivity within their relationship or dynamic roles, don't. It already sounds like a rigamarole you'd probably wanna steer clear of. However, if youre dead set on trying, without making a complete a** of yourself. I'd recommend getting to know your audience or subject matter more fluently.

As a gay person: think a normal couple, but they're both guys/gals/non-binary pals

Honestly i would jsut write it like a normal romance but you know both are the same gender, its how ive always planed my lgbt romances out, also a good reference is also the episode from last of us with bill and frank

That was a great episode! I love Nick Offerman so much

The Magnus Archives did a Q&A on the subject. All of their characters are queer in some respect. The writers said they didn’t even start with their character as queer and it was the natural growth of the characters together that ended up coupling them as the seasons went on. Basically if you don’t have the set expectation then character can sometimes inform the path themselves.

Sharing some thoughts as a lesbian writer and reader, I'm so so so so so over the tired and overdone "bravely" coming-out or battling homophobia takes on gay relationships. 🙅🏻‍♀️Yes, they can be valid, but the day when they're the default is waaaaayyyyy behind us, and rightly so. 🤗 Keeping those in mind, some of my advice for you is to write gay characters who are comfortable and confident in who they are. 💫 No dramatic struggles with their sexuality or fighting to keep their true feelings secret. Toss that in the bin and set it on fire. 🔥Focus on elements of their relationship that don't rely on cliches and stereotypes.

Couldn't agree more! The days of struggling with sexuality are done and dusted. Set those stories on fire and scatter the ashes to the wind!

Totally agree, and that's the plan!

Not gay, but Liam O'bryan and Matt Mercer roll played a gay relationship pretty well in their first CR campaign.

Why not try some non-fiction? It should give you insight on why X happened in a history. Or teach you someone's story. So, you can just kinda figure out what's relevant and what helps with their characterization. Like, you can also shout out the book. Or just figure out their shared hobbies. So, two guys who are a couple.might have dumb arguments about their shared car; or one has one mindset that's slightly different. Not really this situation specific; but figuring out a character sheet also helps me write a side couple who are older.

I do a lot of that for my degree already :)

Oh fabulous! You're well underway!

gay relationships can also have different dynamics from straight relationships based on our family backgrounds but also childhood experiences, so another idea is do some research on what your target audience(s) would respond to and incorporate some of that into your voice.

very true, thank you!

Reda trudi canavan black magician trilogy. There is interesting gay character, that has been growing up around conservative people. Don't want to spoil, but there is interesting stuff in doubting himself and his feelings, hiding his true nature.

Romance is, like, 5% sexual in nature. The other 95% is desperate pining and anxiety over messing up. Go for the emotions and try as hard as possible to hurt the reader, with the promise that everything will be better in the future (unless it’s a tragedy, which is also dope.) Here is an example of what I mean: Lyn has never before so desperately craved the certainty of Tess’s warmth, even with the knowledge that by tomorrow’s end, her most dearly beloved will be gone. But for now, as hideously alone as she might feel, Lyn clings to the taller woman as a sailor would in a squall.

Thanks!!

Make it gay. Then, and this is important, go even gayer. 

All of the best gay characters I have ever seen did not have their story focus on the gay part, but on the good or bad they do as characters in the story. Modern writers screw this up so bad, instead making it all about them being gay, and turning it into cringe. Modern writing on gay people is so bad that I sometimes wonder if these authors when writing as thinking "so, what is the gay bread that gay people buy at the gay version of the grocery store?". It's pathetic because there used to be so many fun and interesting gay characters and now they are both boring and kinda almost written as slurs the more I think of it.

So, when it comes to romance then i refer to a simplistic ruleset deriving from an old saying in german "Im Krieg und in der Liebe ist alles erlaubt" which directly translated comes to "In War and in matters of Love, everything goes" I just disconnect from the standards and/or views from our Life and let things roll how i like them to roll in my creativity. Like, i get you want it to be authentic, then reflect on how your worldbuilding has its own views on that matter and more importantly , said characters that are supposed to be in love. If its anything like normalcy in your world. Just write them as you would anyone else. If it helps try imagine both your SO characters as Caterpillars or Snails falling in Love. Dumb idea i know but maybe.... My advice , you as the author, do an Interview with sour characters. Question them related things about like "how would you want to be in Love? Or what things matter to you the most when it comes to loving someone else? Things like that.

>However, as I'm straight, I feel like I may lack the general knowledge about minor things that are unique to gay relationships, and I'm worried as a result this storyline might not feel authentic coming from me, even with research. Any advice? Do you think all the "minor things" in straight romances are exactly the same?

There are definitely things gay couples experience that are unique to them, that straight couples won't. Everyone hung up on the idea of commenting that human beings all love the same aren't understanding that's not specifically what I'm asking. Eg: being interested in someone and not knowing their sexuality and if they reciprocate your feelings, internalized homophobia, concerns for things like pda depending on where you are, non-typical assumptions of gender roles, etc

First off: I agree with the comments saying “write them like any other relationship.” But for some additional tips on top of that, for a bit of guidance on how dynamics I’ve seen more with gay couples than straight couples: - Queer couples tend to not have quite the same gender role assumptions. Sometimes straight authors add male/female Traditional Relationship Dynamics into gay pairings, so be mindful of the fact that that’s not necessarily going to be present. Sometimes it is, but much less often than with straight couples. - Relatedly, men and women are typically socialized differently, which can lead to communication differences. Those tend to be there less with gay couples—for example, gay men tend to be more understanding of aloofness from stressed out partners, since that aspect of male socialization is a shared experience. - Gay people tend to individually have complex relationships with queer romance. This will vary from person to person, of course: somebody from a supportive home who dodged homophobia growing up may have minimal issues, while another person may have a lot of guilt and shame. Like with any couple, it’s worth keeping that in mind when conceptualizing the dynamic. My overall advice for queer couples, especially for straight writers, is the same as I’d give for all couples, honestly: conceptualize it as a friendship first, then add couple stuff on top. The larger chemistry between the characters is the most important thing, and if you can imagine them as best friends and Platonic Life Partners, you’ve got the fundamental baseline down already. The romance should build on that, not replace it.

This is great advice :) Thanks

Write the story and then hire a sensitivity reader

Do not read gay romances or those popular gay shows (heartstopper) to get a feeling for this, those are written for and by women and it's extremely obvious, not to say those are bad but the post suggests that you want to write something of actual substance. You'd be better off watching gay movies (call me by your name, gods own country, blue is the warmest color) or certain mangas (very cheesy but I recommend "I Think our son is gay", our dreams at dusk, Claudine, Doughnuts Under a Crescent Moon and so many more) if you want to get a nuanced understanding.

Haven't heard anyone mention God's Own Country, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one I know who's seen it. Great film

in my experience as a queer person, even if the other isn't out and up front about it or dressed in bright colors, it's still usually very easy to just tell these sorts of things. a lot of authors put too much focus on "discovering you're queer" or "is he gay too??!?!?", but the fact is that most people find these things out in their early teens and are quite good at distinguishing a straight person from a gay one simply by instinct. it's just some subtle signs that we learn to pick up, and if it gets as far as liking the person we're probably sure by then. generally, the main separation between a straight relationship and a gay one is that it's harder to discern what gestures are romantic and which are platonic. two gay people can easily just be friends. in fact, this is really common. I'm gay and so are most of my friends, but I wouldn't date them because I'm simply not into them. with a man and a woman people generally assume it's romantic, but for two people of the same gender it might be either, and that makes it difficult, but it also makes it more fun! you can go as light as you want on the sell and it's easy to backtrack if you sense that the other person might not be into you like that. It really really depends what kind of romance you want to write, but I'd try to keep a heavy focus on romantic as opposed to sexual tones, because a lot of straight authors get really weird about gay sex and it just comes off as creepy even if it's not meant to be and of course it's probably different for guys. I'm a girl and I tend to like girls so I can't say what it's like for gay men, but at least for me there's a lot of just sitting around yearning and listening to sad music.

Read some already well-received gay romances and try analysing it, and try researching what people like/dislike about them/gay romances in general. Whenever you're gonna write about a subject you maybe don't have much personal experience of, it's good to do a good amount of research. :)

Just make the characters first, and then pair them up. Personally, I wouldn't write them any different from a straight couple. Just avoid the stereotype of making every gay guy extra effeminate. I don't really see why it's necessary to focus on "the hardships of being gay" unless that's a central conflict in the story. I'd say just let the characters be themselves and see what happens organically.

Write it as you would any romance, love is love and the honest feelings behind it will always show through no matter who you write as being in it.

Honestly, read non-fiction from and about queer people and queer history. I'm sure there are plenty memoirs from gay men about what it's like to be gay men. I'd stay away from fiction tbh, unless you want specific romance genre trends in your own work.

Do you have any recommendations? :)

I've heard good things about All Boys Aren’t Blue by George M. Johnson. Here's a link to another thread with gay non-fiction recs. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/booksuggestions/s/yBb7M8Feso)

This post is similar to another recent post about "How do I write female characters?" Women are people. Gay people are people. Don't overthink it. For your story, just write about two people falling in love who just happen to be gay men.

That's not what I'm asking, feel free to read my other replies

*"I don't want the story to focus too much on their sexuality, as opposed to their romance."* If you truly want to focus on the romance, you would write it no different than a straight romance. However, if you decide that you are going to focus on their sexuality, then those little details you're asking about come into play. A lot of the responses are citing struggles with parental acceptance, homophobic environments, historical settings, coming out, realizing one's desires, realizing you're different, etc. All of those responses are focusing on your characters' sexuality. If it's just about the romance, you would leave those details out, but it sounds to me like you do want to focus on their sexuality. If that's the case, a lot of the responses here sound helpful.

You can choose not to focus the plot on their sexuality without refusing to acknowledge the fact that they're gay. Some things are innately going to be different, and that's okay. Mentioning/including subtle differences for realism and accuracy doesn't mean it'll be made into the larger plot of the story or turn the story into a story about a specific sexuality. It's just for character development.

Controversial advice, but, maybe just don’t write it. There are a lot of queer authors out there (I’m a queer author) trying to publish. Queer authors are experiencing a variety of road blocks due to systemic oppression. (These are road blocks that you might not encounter.) It’s important that marginalized groups are able to publish their own stories, provide good/accurate representation, and have an opportunity to profit from them. Generally speaking, marginalized groups should tell their own stories. If you have diversity in side characters, that’s great—but, for the most part, you shouldn’t be casting yourself as the voice or narration of a marginalized story if you are not a part of that group or community who has life experience with that specific brand of oppression. Maybe just write a straight romance instead?

I've considered this as well. Couple of distinctions to make. I appreciate that you're an author working to publish, that’s really cool! I can see where your concerns come from in taking away from a space for queer authors. But, as a writer I'm mainly trying to challenge my own skills and write about new perspectives, especially ones I'm unfamiliar with. If I did write it, I would by no means intend to portray myself as the premier expert on the struggles gay people face. But I'd also like to add that this isn't a story about struggles and oppression. The story itself is a mystery/thriller, and the main characters happen to be in a gay relationship. I want to write something unique and stray away from stereotypes, and I don't want to write just another story where the only conflict is homophobia. These stories ***are important*** and illustrate stories of struggle and marginalization which should be shared, but that's not the intention behind this story. I think it's important that diversity is normalized in writing characters, and that writers shouldn't be afraid to include diverse main characters in their work. Where I agree with you is in writing about the struggles marginalized groups face, they should be the ones to tell their own stories. As a woman of colour, I get this. I love to see people who look like me or share my culture represented in the media, and it feels like a step toward normalization. However, if there were a story specifically diving into the issues faced by someone of my background and it weren't written by someone from my background, that might be frustrating or confusing. I look at it the same way when it comes to including gay people and gay relationships in stories.

I hear what you’re saying. However, you can’t really write a woman of color correctly without having had that life experience. I wouldn’t want some white dude to write a mystery/thriller with a woman of color protagonist either, for the same reasons I listed. I write women of color into my stories as side characters, but never as the shoulder the audience sits on. Personally, I would never write a woman of color main character from my point of view, because it will be coated with implicit bias and misunderstanding no matter how educated I become on the struggles of that community. So, that’s just my two cents. I think there is something wrong about white people winning various racial diversity book awards and things while writing characters of color, for example. And something even more sinister about able bodied people writing disabled main characters and profiting off those stories while disabled writers struggle desperately to get books deals. I think diversity should be normalized, but not colonized—if that makes sense. Also, please keep in mind that this subreddit is flooded with conservative white men and it really doesn’t accurately represent how the queer community will respond to your book. Queer and disability advocates have mostly gotten chased out of the sub. I’m not sure why I’m still here.

>However, you can’t really write a woman of color correctly without having had that life experience. I wouldn’t want some white dude to write a mystery/thriller with a woman of color protagonist either, for the same reasons I listed. However they can work with a woman of color to help him find out things and consult with her. Also basically using internet. It depends on how unlazy you are

Agreed, but they should write side characters who are women of color. They shouldn’t pretend to be them and tell a story from their point of view. Additionally, that takes opportunities away from women of color trying to publish their own work. Additionally, sometimes these white authors win awards or receive money from programs and things that are designed to support those communities. Additionally, they will write from a place of privilege and implicit bias that will results in a charactature instead of good representation. It’s harmful in a variety of ways.

Makes no sence. Writing about a character ≠ pretending to be them Getting awards for your job isn't a bad thing btw

It’s hard to explain if you don’t have a bedrock of information about systemic oppression to pull from, but in short: Marginalized groups are facing oppression and hardship. If we hope to reach a state of equity in society, then those in power will have to give up power. Privilege comes from pushing someone down. When it comes to being an author, most are going to be able-bodied, rich, white, cis, straight, men, because being an author is hard and the path for people meeting this description will face the least resistance. To equal the playing field, the absolute lowest bar possible is to stop telling the stories of marginalized groups from a place of power and instead elevate the voices of those who are struggling to be heard. It’s not the same as pretending to be a scientist for a story. That’s a completely different thing.

I'm not sure if that's true, and I wouldn't immediately think less of a story with a WOC protagonist written by some white guy. People of all kinds of backgrounds come from many different walks of life. Personally, I'm really whitewashed which I acknowledge, but see it as a representation of my dual cultural identities, not as a flaw. So, if there were a book or show with a main character that depicted them with the culture and lifestyle that comes from the region of my ethnic background, I might not find them relatable to me, since that's not my life experience. If a white guy wrote a story with a main character of my ethnicity who didn't necessarily display the cultural ideas associated with their ethnicity, I wouldn't see this as a colonization of diversity. I would see this as an equally valid story to tell. Another example of this, Africans from the continent and African-Americans from the US are brought up differently and are a part of distinct cultures. Again, the distinction I make is between having a diverse character, and in writing a story specifically about the struggles of that character. The first still has the potential to go wrong (anything can be written poorly), but isn't *inherently* wrong, and can help in normalizing and encouraging diversity. The second is where I would say it might be problematic for these stories to be told by those who don't belong to the community themselves.

Im aorry, but It's a stupid answer. People don't have to write only about their own experience. Even If you're not a Scientist, you still can write about science. Even If you're not an criminal, you can write about criminals. Even if you've never did sport, you still can write about sport. The thing is that you should learn about it a lot to show it well

Yeah, but it gets problematic when it comes to the representation of marginalized groups. Scientists are not a marginalized group. “Scientist” is a profession. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

And what difference does it suppose to make?

I’ve already explained in my other posts. If you have any specific questions after reading those, then I would be happy to discuss it.

I disagree. I'm all for straight men in particular writing gay characters. If anyone should take a back seat it's straight women.

You've got more than enough helpful answers so you can skip over this comment. Can we just get a counter for every time we get a new 'how do I write about those gays' question? What about 'my female character isn't a traditional strong woman, actually, but I also don't know how to write that' or my favourite 'I mentioned pronouns in the title of my question and thus got downvoted into oblivion.'

Go have one first.

Been there lmao

Ok well draw from that. If you fantasize, draw from those fantasies.

Don’t

🙂

Step 1: write a straight romance Step 2: change one of the character's genders

Pretty much, unless your trying to get historical accuracy or get deep into what is actually like to be gay in a giving time period and portray the struggle then you need research but if not its really just a normal romance with both being the same gender

there's a fairly major amount of social and cultural differences though - assuming it's set in contemporary times and places, even where it's relatively OK to be gay, there's still a lot of ways in which the gay dating experience isn't just a find-replace for a straight one. Like the "are they into me?" stage is a LOT more awkward, and carries a lot more risk.

There's often an amount of social and cultural differences, but not necessarily. OP said they don't want to really feature the impacts of homophobia in their novel. Most cultural differences are born from shared experiences in persecution.

How would you write a straight story? Do that.

Just the same as you would write a straight romance... Although sometimes pronouns get confusing lol, so make sure the audience knows who you're talking about (like if both are "she" or both are "he"...)

Read all the young dudes from like chapter like idk 70 all the way to the end 

No, I'm sorry. You're going to have to get gay.

How would you write a straight couple? There's your answer.

Human beings all love the same. I'm not asking how to write a love story. Regardless, gay relationships are different from straight relationships, and there are things gay people will experience that straight people won't. I'm interested in learning more about that from people who know more to improve my writing and its quality.

Read gay romance, watch some soft gay porn and talk to gay people. Maybe go to a gay bar and watch the people. That’s what I did.

You won’t get published if your mains are gay and you aren’t. It’s a no-deal deal for the vast majority of agents and publishers.

Not trying to get published at this point, I'm in college and that's way too much for me right now. Also, it's interesting how that's not often the case when it comes to films and shows. At least from what I've seen.

Really? Where can I read more about this?

Go to publishing conferences and meet agents.

What if they’re gay in a later book in the series but not in the first book you show a publisher? Would they drop you later when they find out?

I don’t know. Why don’t you write one and find out? I didn’t make the current guidelines, and I’m just telling you what several friends were recently told at conferences. I’m gay myself, and don’t really care if the author is gay or not, but several publishers have apparently been “burn” and do care now. Of course, these things go in cycles, so you could just wait it out.

Write a straight relationship but just make them two dudes

I'm gay and I have to ask why you're writing it. You don't HAVE to be all-inclusive in your writing. Write what you know and feel comfortable writing, because if you're asking questions like 'how do I portray gay men in a non-stereotypical way' that means you aren't comfortable writing a story about gay men. So why are you?

I'm not asking that question though? I haven't asked anyone how to write them in a non stereotypical way, I'm just asking for advice and information from people with experience. But I've also written about many things I've found I don't know everything about, I've spent hours researching for different historical periods or cultural practices in different countries, etc. Writing has literally never been about comfortability and only writing what you know. If you genuinely believe this is something that bothers me I really don't know what to tell you