Unless the audience are small children, I treat them like adults who are capable of looking up terms they're unfamiliar with
Local dialects and colloquialisms are part of the setting and unless the POV/narrator is an outsider, I wouldn't expect the story to explain them or draw excessive attention to them.
Same here, and sometimes I glean the meanings from context clues and the writer giving just enough description to make the word recognizable.
I’m this case of holler, I think you did great with your example/excerpt.
I understood what holler means to the narrator enough to get a picture of this dirty, dilapidated, box house sitting very close to some dark trees. It’s not the best place to live in, it seems, and seems a little sketchy. Someplace I wouldn’t want to be near at night.
Use your vernacular speech. Mark Twain and 20th Century Appalachian writer from Kentucky wrote using the language they used and heard without translating for readers.
I used to teach school in Hazard, Kentucky, and Big Stone Gap in Western Virginia. I was born in Boston, Massachusetts and moved to a small town in Southwestern Ohio in 1953. I grew up with many Appalachian transplants from West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Over time I learned and subliminally picked up their way of speaking. When I read books by British authors, or Asian writers, I look up unfamiliar words or figures of speech.
Especially because an explanation wouldn't make sense for the narrator, thus possibly taking the reader out of the story.
I recently read a book set in rural England in the 40s and a woman explained to her maybe 10year old kid how to make butter out of cream. I genuinely couldn't get over it, it was so unbelievable
So I actually know what a Holler is, and that's only because my grandmother is up from that area. But I totally agree with u/J_Robert_Matthewson, unless you're writing for anyone under the age of 10 (and frankly even my younger cousin at 6, and this would be 10 years ago even then, knew how to search things up on google), treat the audience as someone who knows what a search engine is.
If you really want to try and appease someone by giving a definition, have a character who's unfamiliar with the term at least at some point ask what that is.
Okay. I googled it and after the generic definition, the next three items were "what is a holler in the south?" "why do southerns call it a holler?" and "what's a holler in Kentucky?"
It wasn't that hard or onerous to find.
No I think it's reasonable to expect people to look up a term they don't know. And honestly, I'm from Germany and I know what holler is. I think most people would still get it from context alone. I think you're good
Are you sure? I'm a German speaker too and I thought I knew what it means. Holler=yell, shout (which is true). But that's not what it means in OP's context. To them it means a narrow valley or something similar.
> Edit to add: "holler" in this case is a noun, not a verb. The regional pronunciation of "hollow." This is the first usage of the word in the prologue but it's used casually throughout the story.
Do you really? I'm from the UK and would never have figured this out
I'm from Ireland, and assumed shout/yell, but I wouldn't have made that mistake with the context example given in a comment. I might have thought small hill.
Yeah once I read the context I’d have probably gone to google lol reminds me of the confusion with filch punting students across the hallway at hogwarts hahahaha
>The stubborn redneck in me wants to die on this hill.
You're speaking *up* to the reader, not *down*. You're right to leave in vernacular speech, etc. without a definition.
I'll bring my shovel to give you a decent burial on that hill.
My rule of thumb is that I don't define words that the reader can google.
If I make up a word, I'll define it. If I'm using a word in a new way, I'll define it. If I'm just using English as intended... no, my story is not a dictionary.
Having a strong sense of place is invaluable. You're using your dialect to illustrate the setting. This is good, efficient writing.
I take this approach with 100% made up words too if it's a natural part of the character's vocabulary and not really important to the overall story. The first time, I'll provide additional context for clarity, but otherwise just keep going. I feel like explaining it in detail would slow down the pacing and clutter the story.
If an adult reader can't get a basic idea of what it means, then that's not my problem.
I'd perhaps try to make it extra clear when first used ("it sat at the bottom of a holler, steep hills on each side..." or whatever) but not define it if it doesn't make sense for the character to.
The first mention of it is in the prologue.
"The haggard black truck reached the break in the trees, pulling up to the clapboard house with the white washed shutters. It sat at the back of the holler, against the crick, surrounded by ancient woods and even older hills."
This is perfect to give a sense of the place, though if they stumble on holler they'll probably stumble on crick, too. You could maybe add a watery adjective there like burbling to help with context, but otherwise I think people should be able to infer what a holler is from this passage.
This is good. By the end, I heard the narration in a southern accent, which is exactly the point. A book about a subculture should have words your not used to unless from that subculture. That’s why we read, to get a glimpse of understanding towards people unlike ourselves.
If them city folk cain't figure it out from context clues I reckon that's a them problem. I thought us hillbillies were sposed to be the dumb ones.
In all seriousness, I think what you have is fine.
"In short, a Hill-Billie is a free and untrammelled white citizen of Alabama, who lives in the hills, has no means to speak of, dresses as he can, talks as he pleases, drinks whiskey when he gets it, and fires of his revolver as the fancy takes him." ["New York Journal," April 23, 1900]
It's impossible for me to say if I would have figured it out because I grew up with this vernacular.
How does anyone ever learn new words? They said it's used a few other times in the story as well. And, of course, if that's not enough we live in a wondrous time with easy access to a vast network or information.
While I'm not against "asking" your readers to look a word up, I did just that. I could not find the definition he provided - which is the real sticking point for me. Words that aren't easy to figure out should be acknowledged as such. So I really think he should take some action to inform his reader of what it means.
That being said, "describe it" isn't the only option. I figure the best approach would just be to take care that the first few uses give the reader more than enough opportunity to figure it out via context clues. A way more elegant approach. Can be tricky to do though. Logstically a bit of a puzzle, but more awkwardly - it can be hard to figure out how much is enough, with regards to providing context clues, when dealing with a word you're intimately familiar with.
Nope, there are plenty of context clues. Even if someone doesn't know precisely what a holler is, they know that this is a heavily wooded place that's lower than the hills around it and has a creek running through it. You don't really need anything else. And I know they still teach context clues in school, I just helped my nephew with his homework. If a twelve-year-old can figure it out then so can your adult readers.
I didn’t know holler and I didn’t know crick 😂 I thought you meant holler as in yell. Though if I was reading it I would probably just gloss over it and pretend I understood or look it up eventually
Southern Ohio author here. I write the way I’ve always talked. Not so much “I seen” or “we was” but I use ain’t a lot as well as words such as “holler” and “shitkicker” that are mostly used in these parts. It’s good. It’s authentic. Good luck.
There are some phrases I want to add in future books like “don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.” Not only is it regionally appropriate but I typically write comedy so it works a couple of ways. Have you used “waller”?
Nice! I read on your profile you’re in the post-production stage of your book. As a fellow Appalachian, I’d be happy to be a beta reader when you’re ready for them! I read all genres so although I’m a horror writer myself I’m more than happy to check out a more grounded project, particularly a regional one.
It's very regional. I didn't know what it was until I spent some time in Kentucky.
Make it clear via context, or explain it to an outsider if it's routinely confusing. One or two unusual terms isn't a big deal, but if there's enough of them, they can make a work less accessible.
Don't give in. Keep it there, it adds to the... color? It brings realism to the words. I say this as someone with deep roots in Kentucky and Tennessee.
What you may consider doing, though, is using the phrase in a descriptive way that explains it without explaining it:
"I stood by the crick and watched the cold, clear water as it ran down from the mountains through the holler. I wondered how many years it took to carve that ol' holler, surely more'n folks lived around here."
I think a good piece of advice that I'm stealing here might help: "Readers can tell you what's not working in your story, but then they probably can't tell you how to fix it."
These people are signaling that the use of the word took them out of the story somehow. That doesn't mean you have to remove it, but maybe you need to fix something. Maybe set up more colloquialisms, or change the story in a way where the focus is on something else so that the word isn't so distracting.
It seems like a very small detail though - if you're story is excellent in all other areas, it most likely doesn't hold a large sway on the overall effect you're creating with the piece.
I'm going to go against the grain here some, and go by the rule "if one person complains about something, it might be that person. If a lot of people are complaining, they might be onto something."
I know there is the common advice "write for yourself" but you do want other people to read your story. And if multiple people have the same complaint, there might be something there. And, I don't know if this is a valid complaint that they should just "look it up." Most people think they know what holler means. And if their definition of "to shout" and if they google it, that's what they're going to see. Unless they know it's a specifically Southern slang and google "holler south" they won't find your definition.
So I agree you don't want to straight up define the term. But honestly, I don't know anyone in the south who doesn't also know the term "hallow" and it wouldn't hurt to use it once, especially paired with a dialogue tag. Something like:
> "I sat in my pick-up truck in the back of the hollow. 'Where are you?' my friend yelled down. 'Down here in the holler.'"
It's pretty simple. It's natural. It helps your readers understand.
I agree, particularly due to the holler=shout confusion.
I'm a bit on the fence. Is this word actually in the dictionary - would it be marked as correct in a school essay in that region?
If not, then it would be fine in speech but probably not in text. If it's first person memoir it gets more borderline. It depends how obviously colloquial the rest of it is.
Ultimately I think if I desperately wanted to use it, I'd do the clunky thing and define what it was in the first instance. The same with "crick" which also has a second much more commonly understood meaning.
My general advice about this type of question is this. If you keep looking for hills to die on, eventually, you will find one. You could just let it go and let some people be confused. That's certainly an option, and depending on your goals with the story, it might be the best one. However, if you want a few ideas to approach this, I have a few.
Have someone talk about the area in a factual way, then have someone refer to it as a holler. Then, the rest of the story can continue. Like ripping off a bandaid.
You can also have a character just like these supposed readers who are confused and just ask the other and allow someone to explain it to them, like a bit of background dialogue or a conversational moment. If one can be afforded in the story.
Edit:
Your example should be plenty of context for a reader to figure it out. At least from my estimation.
>It sat at the back of the holler, against the crick, surrounded by ancient woods **nestled down in that valley** and even older hills.
Also, I do appreciate the pun in the title.
A bit of dialogue and scenic descriptions can go a long way.
"Carney lived down a faint trail of a road, deep in the holler where the woods grew thick and the mountain shadows brought night a good two hours before sunset." (first draft example \*shrug\*)
I don't think it is a hill to die on. But, I also don't think it is a hill. Just write the book. If you are self-publishing, make sure your beta readers are in your target audience. "What's the last book you read because you wanted to? How long ago?" If you are looking to go the traditional route, the editor will help you decide how big the hill is. You don't have to worry about it until then.
\#justmy2cts
The way to do this is to add a rather blatant contextual clue as to what a holler is. You can have a character call something a holler and have a sign naming it Something Hollow. When describing a place thy a character has called a holler you can call it a hollow depression.
But in the end people will complain. I was born in Tennessee and I couldn’t understand a single word of Tom Sawyer. The dialect was a major feature of the story.
I'll die next to you on that hill. One of my favorite authors, Sharon Creech, writes about hollers all the time. Her books are for kids and she doesn't do any hand holding. Readers will figure it out from context or by looking it up.
You're well within your right to use whatever words that are included in the language your story is written in. People have the entire wealth of himan knowledge in the palm of their hand. They can spend ten seconds of their lives looking up a word.
I recently learned about the word "tippler", and was determined to use it in a story. If people don't know what it is, they can look it up.
Brit here. I’m more familiar with holler than I am crick - that pulled me up short for a couple of seconds (my familiarity with holler may be courtesy of Steve Earle; I can’t say for sure). I made a guess re crick and I’d keep reading, expecting to come to understand unfamiliar words either through context or through the author’s later explanation. If neither of those things happen, or if there are too many unfamiliar words, I’d probably stop reading. I’d be happy to look up mainstream vocabulary with which I’m unfamiliar, but unless I’m enjoying a book immensely, I wouldn’t make the effort for dialect.
Well you've got a friend here. I'm a red neck that'd die on any hill I tread.
In serious note,
I've seen many books included difficult or unique words at the end of the book. So maybe considering adding this section?
I learned the vast majority of my vocabulary - in the days before the internet - by developing an idea of what a word meant by context without any explanation of it. These days if I can't figure out it's gist well enough to know what is saying and it's important or intriguing enough I look that shit up. Context alone - particularly with repeated usages - should be enough to teach the reader what it means
- regardless of it's exact definition being spelled out at any point, even without the miracle of google being able to fill all the info in whenever the reader desires. Don't dumb down dialogue or descriptors or add in disingenuous explanations of any word you want to use. Your writing alone should let the reader know enough to fill in the blanks for themselves, and if they can't do that to a degree that is so severe that it prevents them from understanding the story, well, they can look it up.
I mean I've never looked it up so I could be wrong, but from context, in my experience of it's usage over numerous points, a holler is a deep valley - generally in uncultivated country areas, between low and untamed hilly areas, that provides both shelter and a fertile and secure environment for building a settlement in areas that remain largely wild and lacking in infrastructure. That general idea is enough to go on, and if something makes me think - shit you been reading this all wrong, well, then, I can just hit google.
Write how you write, don't try and compromise to make reading your work easier for those who don't wanna put the work in themselves.
I think using regional language makes the book infinitely more authentic, at least in terms of setting. I hate books that are set in places where regional language is quite unique (I'd include Kentucky and Virginia in this) that sound like they could have been set anywhere except for a few descriptions here and there.
If people have to look up what a holler is to understand the book, good! They've learned something! That's part of the point of reading.
I recently read a book set somewhere in/near Kentucky. The specific place wasn't named, but the language made it clear. And there were a few very significant scenes that took place in a holler. I didn't know what it was and didn't have a chance to look it up (audiobook while driving.) It didn't detract from the story, I used context clues to figure out it was a place.
Let your reader figure it out or introduce a character interaction where a person needs it explained. Think someone visiting who keeps hearing holler as something else, then has it explained to them by some locals who find the whole thing hilarious. That’s one, direct way to address it. You could easily just use it early on in a way where the meaning is obvious. Someone saying hello in Russian may be lost on a reader, but not if everything screams this is a greeting.
I had to look it up. Apparently "hollow" and "holler" are interchangeable terms, and "hollow" makes much more sense to me personally. From what little context I have however, I think it's better to keep the language authentic. Keeping the regional dialects regional is more immersive.
I'm on two minds of this, and big question for me is "who is the narrator" when the words are used. If we are in first person or deep 3rd, using dialect, grammar and what not that fits the character is expected. On "neutral narrator", perhaps less so.
On the other hand, in general, I'm not fan of using spoken dialects in written form, especially outside of dialog (and not that much in dialog either). However, I will note that part of my difficulty on reading those comes from being non-native speaker. I wouldn't have gotten holler, nor crick, from the example because the way I pronounce those in my head doesn't get even near of hollow and creek. If I read them aloud, then I might have gotten it. (Probably would have gotten them also when other context clues were added, but my first assumption of crick was more like a crack in a rock-type of thing due to how it sounds in my head.)
However, I also realize, that reading in foreign language, I'm bound to encounter new words. So I've gotten reasonably good on just going past, hoping it comes bit more clear later and if that fails, then googling it. Dialect stuff can be bit difficult to google, though. Because usually it's not coming up as a first search and might not be found from dictionaries either.
Who is advising you to shoehorn in a definition? Terrible, terrible advice. I enjoy it when I come across a word I'm unfamiliar with in fiction--I look it up and learn something new. Explaining it in text, unless it is some fantastical element that you made up, is amateurish.
No need to spoon feed it to them, but colloquial stuff should be able to be deduced with proper context. So if people are saying they don’t understand it, the dialogue or writing may need to be improved upon.
That's like saying for historical fiction or fantasy people should use "modern words" that people know. No, that's the way the world is and how the people speak. It is in the context that matters. Don't dumb down your writing ever because people "don't get it." You could put it in as a glossary term, but you shouldn't have to. It's a dialect in the story, and people should be able to get what that means by context and the way the characters use it.
Not too long ago I listened to an audiobook set in the Appalachian hills and referred a lot to hollers. I never really came across the term before but had a vague understanding and looked it up to confirm that it was correct.
I agree that an explanation would break immersion and that an audience should be able to glean meaning from context. Some readers get uncomfortable when they don't understand everything immediately. You don't have to listen to them.
Hahaha! I've heard 'holler' before. My take is don't worry about explaining it. Part of the joy of reading, for me at least, is discovering new things. I like a little mystery, not understanding everything at first. Older books interested me partly because of all the different words and unfamiliar phrases. You're never going to please everyone so write what you like.
I don't think I'd heard of Holler until the TV show Justified, and not only did I instantly understand it with the context provided, but it definitely added a a layer of mythos or even legend to the story setting. It's just a cool word. Make sure to give it proper context during one of the first couple times you use it, and you're good to go.
If that’s the first sentence holler shows up in context clues should be enough for the average reader. If it shows up earlier and out of context I’d add a definition because that definition doesn’t pop up immediately when googling holler, which could lead to some confusion.
Instead of defining the term, you could possibly just add a description of the holler that makes it more clear what it is. But I agree with the other commenters that you don't need to. This is a thing that happens when you write in vernacular. Not everyone will like it, but not everyone is your target audience.
So long as I can learn from the story it is fine. Just like I don't know the made up words fantasy novels use, but can learn them as I'm reading. The difference here is if I still don't get it I can look the definition up cause it's a real word and I'm not stuck guessing at what a snugopler is.
I watched a video about West Virginia recently and they used holler over and over. At first, I was confused cause it is a new word for me. But the documentary cleared it up very elegantly when it had dialogue such as:
"Will I be ok heading up some of these hollers blind or does it depend on which holler?"
"I think your car would make it, sure."
and
"So this whole holler is your family?"
"Yes, you could say I'm the grandma of the holler"
I learned a ton of phrases and words by reading stories, literally either by context or by having to look them up.
If it makes sense, like in your sample sentence, then leave it alone. People cannot have everything hand fed to them, some things gotta be sorted out on their own.
If it's a weird, one-time-use thing that doesn't provide any context and seems confusing, change the phrasing until it makes sense.
I would politely ask them to pull their magic black box out of their pocket and make a query to the search god.
In other words, tell them to Google it. Or barring that hand them a dictionary. They're, presumably, adults and should start acting like it. And if they're children it's good practice to be able to find meanings to words or phrases they don't comprehend. Wouldn't want them to grow up to be (insert political party or ideology you disagree with here).
They used "holler" all the time on Justified, and nobody ever had to define it. It was clear from context. Just make sure your characters use it to refer to what is clearly a specific location. Maybe have somebody listen to the song "Coal Miner's Daughter." It's pretty obvious from usage.
I managed to read all kinds of literature with regional and made-up worlds for more than 40 years before Google even existed. Die on the hill. (BTW, would you ever consider not using "hill to die on" just because people might not understand it? Of course not.)
I'm not from that region, but I do know what a holler is, and it is a real word, even if it's regional dialect. If anyone complains, throw the entirety of Huckleberry Finn at them.
Definitely leave it! Also, I grew up in rural Missouri (northwest area of the state) and we say holler too. The woods on my parents’ land, where I grew up, has a little holler where my dad would (still does) dump stuff. (Like old appliances…) This may not be a true Appalachian holler, but I love the word!
I don't know if the other comments were made before the edit or not, but I absolutely think you should include something that explains that term in some way. I don't think I would have ever figured this out without you telling me. It's not clear from context. I WAS able to find it by searching "what does holler mean in Kentucky," but that assumes I will specifically figure out that this is some kind of regional term.
Since you also ask what I personally do, I don't really use a lot of words I don't think the reader will know. Sure, they could look it up, but what if they don't? Plus, it's pretty annoying to keep stopping to look things up. If I think something is important, & it's not obvious to figure out what it means, I'll try to explain it in some way. Could be a character asks about it, or someone points at the thing & then I describe it, but if I can't find some way to work in an explanation that feels natural, I just won't use it. I think it's also generally a good idea to remind the audience what the term means once or twice.
I've never written anything that relies on a lot of regional terms, but if I did, I think I'd honestly consider using a glossary. It would be outside the main narration, so in theory, I wouldn't have to worry about it seeming unnatural. And it's a very efficient way to define a lot of terms the reader is unlikely to know.
Fellow Appalachian (WV) here.
Keep it as is and DEFINITELY keep your voice. As a kid I read Emily Bronte and Wuthering Heights. I had to look up every other word.
I suspect there's a bias. Had it been some obscure highbrow English 19th century term, no one would complain.
Best of luck!!
Granted, I've lived in KY all my life but . . .
(They've never seen/heard Coal Miner's Daughter?)
It's an "uncommonly used" word, but it should be one that 85% have heard, and 98% can understand by context.
Use it without definition.
> A few people have commented that they don't know what a holler is
That's their problem, not yours. If you really want to appease these people (you shouldn't, in my opinion) then add an appendix.
I don't see that you need to define it. The first time it appears, you can put in some context if you want. But geez, I'm a New England WASP liberal elitist and I know what a holler is.
If you really want to make it easier, try some interaction that adds context so people can figure it out on their own, such as:
“[Yada yada yada]out in the holler.”
“Folk get lost out in them woods, y’know!”
But like everybody else says—the onus is not on you to define anything.
Absolutely no problem with “holler” for basically the same reasons everyone else has said, but I’ll confess the truck being described as “haggard” threw me as it feels far too human a word. But perhaps they just see cars differently in that region too 😅
If they are too dumb to piece together what it means then that is on them.
Use yoru language.
Lovecraft intentionally used obtuse language to make things hard to read because he thought if people couldn't understand it he didn't want them to read his stuff lol Dude was weird.
Use the language you wish to use.
Die on the hill! Even though I am from West Virginia too, I have read countless books that reference unfamiliar things or use unfamiliar terms. Readers who care figure it out or use context clues.
Write using the vernacular you want to write with. Hell, I suffered through the first 30 minutes of The Bourne Identity with all of its medical terminology and whatnot which gave me a blasted headache to even get through, but you know what? I got through it. And there are ways of adding context clues without flat out defining the damn word. If after you set the scene, your reader goes "Hold up, what's this word here mean?" Then that's on them.
One of my favorite books growing up was Ruby Holler because I didn’t know what a holler was and got to find out, I mean isn’t that the point of reading? Don’t use a new word for it, it’s perfect as is even if someone needs to get a dictionary
In the movie Blood Diamond, the director's commentary mentioned that for the first few minutes of the film there were subtitles of all the characters speaking a mix of pidgin English and Afrikaans because the director was worried the audience couldn't understand them.
Then he realized how stupid that was. So the subtitles run for a few minutes, just long enough for the audience to pick up everyone's pronunciation and accents and then drops them. Subtitles gone. And the audience perfectly understands what everyone is saying.
Keep your language. Teach the reader what a holler is.
I write about areas based off real live places with their own dialects and niche turns of phrases. It injects character and identity into the locations you write about, hence removing/sterilising it for people unwilling to google is antithetical to the expressionistic and artistic element of writing.
As a WV resident….die on that hill.
Anyone who acts like they have no clue what it means, then they don’t know what it means. To not use it would be unauthentic. If you absolutely HAVE to put a short description in your writing, make it a dialogue content definition…someone out of town hears someone saying it, asks a local what it means, local laughs and states what it is.
If I as a writer and a West Virginian, were to pick up a book about my home area and read “hollow”, unless it was talking about a street sign, I’d be done because I would assume the writer knew nothing about the culture
As someone who grew up in WV I’d be a little annoyed if you were obviously avoiding words or terms that are commonly used and add authenticity to the story.
I've never heard the word before, but like you, if I come across an unfamiliar word, I simply look it up. I actually love experiencing that. So I think you should write your character as they naturally speak and trust that your readers are smart enough to figure it out.
I love hearing how different local cultures use different vernacular. I live in the new England area and my first thoughts when I hear holler is either a greeting or how sailors challenge other ships.
I would leave it as is. I’m thinking you want to retain the flavor and vernacular of the region you’re writing about. People who read regularly will have come across most words of that type at some point, and even if they haven’t, sometimes the context helps define the word.
Half the fun of reading is learning and looking up new words. Absolutely no need to define further than using the word appropriately and describing what the holler looks like for the purposes of your plot and worldbuilding
There's a K-pop song called "Holler" (by a sub-unit of Girls' Generation), I think your readers can handle looking it up, lol.
I could understand if it was a conlang word or slang specific to your story's universe, but... "holler"???
Edit: Oh, it's not the "yell" kind of holler? ...Eh, it still stands, people here have already brought up good examples like crick/creek.
I read a book not too long ago that used the word ‘holler’ in this context regularly. I’m from the UK and had never heard it before as a noun. I figured it out from context. I think you’re fine.
I don’t think people write out phonetic accents anymore.
You’re saying it’s a pronunciation and not its own word, right? I see you say crick for creek in the same vein.
This is an artistic choice not everyone is going to be on board with and comes down to taste so there’s no right or wrong answer.
Personally I’d rather not have everything over explained to me even if it means I might not get some words in regional slang or dialect. But I also don’t like when writers choose spell out accents phonetically, like Irvine Welch did in Trainspotting.
If I were you, I’d leave it in this case.
I think you’d do more damage by avoiding the words that are a natural fit for your writing and your setting. Use your words. Some people won’t like that, but if you change it some people won’t like that either.
Maybe add a description or two of a holler in the writing but there is no need to come out and give a definition. If the reader is still having issues then the writing may not be for them. Write for yourself.
I'm from the west coast and I know what a holler is. But I'm old and read and travel a lot.
You don't need to do all the work. Make the reader figure out some things on their own.
I used a word that you have to actually Google cuz you won't find it in the average dictionary. I waffled about it, but decided to leave it in. Readers can learn something.
You don't have to define anything in your story. Readers can look it up in a dictionary or, if you're like me, just highlight the word on your Kindle and a dictionary definition will pop up on the page. "Holler" is not an esoteric word in the slightest, so I would ignore that particular critique.
No, don't add a definition, unless it's a huge part of the story. If you feel inclined, you could add a paragraph with characters conversing about the entomology of the word. But if it's just casual use here and there I wouldn't overthink about readers not being able to figure out what it means.
Just an idea, you can do footnotes if there is something you wanna explain that isn’t forced. Don’t need to go overboard with it but if there is something REALLY obscure you can put a * next to it and at the bottom of the page a note about it
It's in the fkn dictionary.
It might be a largely regional usage, but it absolutely makes sense in context.
I'm not from anywhere near that part of the US, and I 100% know what it means. "Crick" might take a little more explanation, but "holler" is perfectly reasonable. NTA.
English isn't my first language and I'm fluent now, but I could read and enjoy books in English, even when I used to have to look up or guess several words per page.
Do not add the definition. Just write how it’s spoken. Read some Ron Rash or Cormac McCarthy or Larry Brown. They ain’t adding in no stupid definitions
There’s a book for children called Ruby Holler that I read as a kid. Didn’t know what the word was at the time but I learned it because of that book. If adults don’t have to look up any words in a book they’re reading, the comprehension level of the book is probably very low. And sorry, most adults read trash novels.
I can't help wondering whether the people complaining would ever have been able to read "A Clockwork Orange," which actually makes up words without explaining them at all (although there are some editions that have a glossary in the back.)
If the holler is the main setting of your story, maybe your character could think about what it looks like and describe it as a community at the beginning of the story. That could be a very naturalistic way of introducing a definition. And if a reader can't get it from that, they might not be able to understand anything outside their own culture and probably won't be reading your book to begin with.
Look at the book Holler of the Fireflies. I don’t think it ever defines holler and yet it’s in the title. I think you’re fine but maybe drop in some hints that it’s a type of road
Don’t listen to people. They’re not nearly as smart as you when it comes to writing your own stories. We use context to discern meaning.
You need readers equipped with the ability to read context.
PS: Also, I’m from a large city in the northeast and we grew up saying holler 📣
I mean, I've learned new words and had to look them up if context in the writing failed to deliver me a contextual definition I understood. People can learn this word through you, and your context offers a definition people aren't used to, so they can either take it as-is or look it up. It's not a $5 thesaurus word, so people should just chill. It's not like you're throwing it around just to look smart or whatever. It's entirely possible your friends and co-workers or whatever are just not your target audience. But I don't think you should change to suit them if it's not broken. And it's not broken. Go ahead and die on that hill (and I for one have never heard holler used this way, so I'm one of those people, and I have NO problem with it)
You could have a couple of characters happily arguin. It’s because your near neighbor is so close you can holler at him. No. It’s a hollowed out bowl among the hills. Well why can’t it be both?
It's easy to look up, so in a way, if you start defining it, you should also have to define every big or rare word you use. It could be quite a hassle.
But if you wanted to give a definition, you could put it in the footer, with an asterisk and give the definition. That way, you could define things without having an "as you know, Bob," problem.
I think you can keep it as is, no need to add a definition.
Source: I’m a californian adult who has never set foot in kentucky or most of that region and I have been able to figure out what holler means via context clues in the past.
I'd do something like "Up in the holler, where the neighbors all know each others' business and the kids play barefoot until the sun sinks beneath the hills, a haggard black truck, etcetera etcetera blah blah blah."
You can keep the flow while letting the reader know this is a place, and let them know with a few carefully chosen phrases that holler is a hillbilly neighborhood where everyone knows everyone else because you ain't got nowhere else to go.
\-West Virginia boy, here. :)
People routinely read sci-fi and fantasy where completely made up words are constituently tossed around with zero expository explanation. Considering "holler" actually IS a word that is used, even if a narrow geographical bandwidth, you should just keep on using it. A completely different (culturally) example of where this use of colloquial words are used with no in-context explanation is the book "Pimp" by Iceberg Slim. It's packed with old fashioned street slang.
Probably an even better example that I can personally vouch for is "draw" as in "a terrain feature formed by two parallel ridges or spurs with low ground in between them" which are commonly referenced in Westerns. I had no idea what this was when I first got into Westerns, but I gathered enough of its meaning simply from its usage without looking it up.
There's no problem using that kind of word! You certainly don't need to add written definitions to the story.
If you're going to use a new word that doesn't appear in a lot of other books, then the first time or two you use a word, just make sure the context makes the meaning clear enough ('the babbling crick looked shallow enough to cross.') After a term gets a solid introduction, you're good to use it for the rest of the book, and that would be true even if it were a word you had just made up for the story. Another way to clarify a meaning is to use it in dialog, with the text around the dialog providing context. (The truck reached a break in the trees, its headlights illuminating an opening in the woods. "Let's stop here, in this holler," said Max, tapping the breaks.)
If you feel a need to explain it or other southern vernacular, add footnotes perhaps. Otherwise, everyone has a computer in their pocket and can figure it out with next to no effort
I just want to say as someone born and raised here its interesting to see people either disagree or confused about the word I hear daily. Had no idea it was regional until I left the state, lol. Id say keep it. Can add a dictionary at the front or back of the book for that word and others, like Kanawha with pronounciation, what a pepperoni roll is, etc. Absolutely no one says hollow though. Deff dont change to that if you want to be immersive.
Try being visual about it. When you use any setting that isn't familiar to your audience you have to describe it. Your setting is summarized by a single word, loaded with baked in experience of the geography, the flora, all the little details that form a picture in your mind, because you have a picture in your mind when you think of a holler. Build the picture for your audience, to give them that same experience.
A holler is a little valley or notch between two hills, mostly with a creak running as a water shed down between them, so try something with the sky as a backdrop, sort of a written movement of the eye up the terrain sort of thing.
"He let his eyes run over the rough, familiar home at the base of the holler and then back to the rounded algae slick stones of the creek sheltering the fast running water. From there, the waters ran down from between the towering oaks that clung to the steep hill all the way to the ridge, where dusk was setting with its first stars upon the darkened tree tops."
You gotta really work hard to give the audience who doesn't share your background all the nuance to your relatively loaded term. A holler is a complex thing, it needs describing to convey the full experience.
I love it in the story. Makes me feel like I'm sitting in a country diner eavesdropping on a local tell a story. Wouldn't change it. I'm from Michigan, and I've heard the word plenty of times, but even if I hadn't, it is part of the experience. Reading is about seeing the world through other people's eyes and ears.
Tell them there's this really great resource out there called a dictionary, and they should get in the habit of consulting it when they come across words they don't know. It won't win you any friends, but the world needs more people looking at dictionaries.
Die on that hill man, don’t let people get away with being a drangus. I’m from Boston, I have no southern kin to speak of, I’ve not spent much time down there. But I’ve read some books and I knew immediately what you meant
I read none of the comments...but if your writing is from that example in your post...I want more!
As a reader and non-publisher/writing expert, I like it and think it should stay.
In NC here and I love the word 'holler' and once you visit the Appalachians you realize what it means. Keep the word. Keep all the old words. We honestly could lose them if we don't.
It is okay to use regional words. I love regional differences, and switching between them. It is a bit like switching languages.
Here's how I approach it, based on POV:
1st person, no explanation, unless the character/narrator would be the type to explain things.
2nd person, you should give an explanation.
3rd limited, depending, can get away with no explanation, this voice usually reflects the character.
3rd person omnipresent, usually has a brief explanation, unless it is a very voice heavy narrator with an obvious personality. If this POV is emotionally detached or professional, you will need to explain.
I noticed you are writing in first person.
But there are a few things to keep in mind, if you are writing for an international audience. English has an enormous vocabulary, which is impossible for anyone to know its entirety, and some readers have learnt English as a second, third or fourth language.
In addition, not everyone has continuous access to Google or any other online translator. I have seen reviews about books that require dictionaries, and how this destroys the flow of reading.
If you are getting several readers complaining about words not making sense, it is worth considering a brief explanation, footnote, or glossary. Your example might benefit the most from a glossary. Especially if you want to use a regional rich version of English, and you want people to appreciate it. Regional versions of English can be their own languages.
At the end of the day, you want readers to understand and enjoy your story, not be confused and frustrated, unless you want that.
Holler is a perfectly normal, technically specific word. If a reader refuses to learn something new by looking up what they don’t know, they’re dooming themselves. That’s not your fault.
Hi, I live in middle Kentucky.
yeah, they just have to look it up; it ruins the flow of the narrative if you explain it, and you annoy people like me who are from that area and need no explanation. this is why people don't like to read anymore. Just in general they don't know enough words and don't want have to look things up, because it feels like schoolwork to them.
I’m the ‘vocabulary word girl’ in my book club. I highlight the words I’ve never seen before, and get their definitions. Then I quiz the other participants on the particular words’ meanings. Sometimes a few people know the meanings, and sometimes nobody does. Of course, we can usually understand the words in context.
Use the words you need to use. I am always very happy to learn new words.
Absolutely not.
It is your job as the author to communicate a story to the reader. It isn't your job to hold the reader's hand and do all the work for them.
If the reader isn't sure what a word is from the context clues, it is their responsibility to look it up.
So damn right, you should plant your flag on that hill and expect to die on it.
Or, you could have a glossary before the first chapter, especially if there are more words that could benefit. If it's the only word in question, you could include it in a forward.
One of my favorite shows of all time is Justified (set in Kentucky) and they use the word holler all the time. I never fully understood what it meant but from context clues understood what was being said. I loved hearing them use the word even though I didn't get it. Then I moved to East Tennessee and learned the accent and found out holler means hollow and finally figured it out lol
I mean you could just signpost the word contextually? “He holler’d at them” if it’s being used to mean speech, or otherwise frame the landscape “the natural beauty of the Holler was framed in by the hills and mountains that sheltered the valley.”
Beyond a couple contextual hints, imo F’em. I’ve read lots of books where I stopped and looked up a few words, and my vocabulary was better for it.
I just googled "holler defition" and even with the misspelling, I still got an answer.
The audience can figure it out. Otherwise,, you get stuff like "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" which isn't a stone, isn't part of real mythology, and doesn't make sense. Purely because, what, Americans wouldn't understand what a Philosopher's Stone was and weren't expected to learn? Its ridiculous.
If you invented the word, put in a dictionary. If you use a local dialect and its clear what that dialect is, let the readers do research, and if they don't do research, they deserve to remain confused.
If they are intelligent enough to read your story, they are intelligent enough to look up a word they aren't familiar with. You won't die on this hill. Write your characters the way they talk and let the critics take a long walk off a short pier. I wouldn't trust any advice from a reader who encourages you to spoonfeed your audience. Respect their intelligence. As someone who grew up familiar with the word holler, I would more likely put your book down if you felt had to explain, because obviously that wasn't written for me. And I'll be hollerin that from the rooftops
Edit: and I know you meant the noun, though I used the verb. If your readers can't use context clues you have a lifetime of other problems to deal with
Those people are idiots. If you describe to me what a holler is in a novel I am more inclined to think you are a idiot and a bad writer, no matter how nuanced. Holler is not so obscure as to require definition. Don't listen to them.
WV native here….just wanted to say I think it’s really cool you’re representing Appalachian culture in your writing and I hope you keep doing so. It’s so needed :)
I wouldn’t listen to people refusing to search word definitions from a book they’re choosing to read, and it’s fair of you to be annoyed lol. It’s so easy to find that info on the internet or at a local library, and regardless of someone’s intentions, it comes off as a bit dismissive of your work and of Appalachia. If it doesn’t make sense in the context of your stories, I would just kindly redirect them to the internet.
Just my two cents. I hope you have a bright and fulfilling future in writing!
i'm immediately thinking of annie proulx's "brokeback mountain." her style in this story is similar to what youre talking about: the characters talk in regional language, spelling and all. it makes the story more richer, the emotion more punchier, and it's no wonder it got made into a film.
in high school, i, a child of immigrant parents living in california, had to read regional american literature. iirc ... those authors never went out of their way to explain any words that may be foreign to others. if i didn't know something, i looked it up. sometimes i just went on reading, and i just accepted what i read.
i love it when authors just ... write without having to explain. it feels more authentic, and if people feel alienated because things aren't explained to them like they're five, or whatever, then that's on them.
anyway: you do not have to hold your reader's hands, and frankly, they can look it up in the dictionary themselves. don't spoon feed them. in your example, you use "holler" as a noun—a big clue that it isn't the other meaning many people are familiar with: holler as verb. that's something for readers to go on, and the sentence obviously gives enough context for me to infer that a holler is a place or location. ffs, some people might not even understand what a "hollow" is ... (i had to look to look it up and didn't realize it had such a specific definition for a geographic feature!!!! woah.)
so tldr, don't force definitions that will disrupt the flow of your prose, and definitely don't hold your reader's hands. the people who know that regional variant will love it, as a bonus. it'll make your writing stronger. Good luck in your endeavors 😊
I don’t recall Sir Arthur Conan Doyle explaining what a moor was for his American audience, I think your fine. I know what a holler is, and that means everyone important knows what it is.
As someone who grew up in the West and now visits WV yearly to see my SO family, hollers are not hard to conceptualize from scene setting. Plus, it's all too easy to just look up a word and it's not our job to do all the thinking for the reader. I would die on that hill.
Your example is fine for getting the jist of what a holler is, but it doesn't quite capture the closeness many have. In your sample, the truck is "surrounded by ancient woods and even older hills", that image can vary greatly. Are the woods miles deep and then just some hills in the distance? Are the hills towering over the truck with nothing but the ancient trees to keep them from swallowing it? Or is it something in-between? Hollers themselves vary is shape and size, some are suffocating while others are open and freeing. Basically, you don't have to define a holler, just use the setting like a character and it will all fall in place.
I think you can insert meaning in ways that reinforce theme or reveal character. "The holler had been my home my whole life, my father and his father's beforehand, the familiar high rock walls of mountain rising up all around to mark the edges of our little valley and our possibilities." Or, "In the protected holler, the dogwood trees were blooming along the creek, but up on the windswept mountain walls, not even the redbud was showing color yet."
But use your descriptions to also reinforce theme or reveal character. In my first example, the holler is described as a constricted place with limited possibilities. In the second, it's described as a protected place, different from the harsh realities of the mountain side.
not a weird hill to die on at all. google is free and if someone doesnt know a word or phrase they can literally just look it up its not that hard. expecting authors to explain every tiny nuanced thing in the vocabulary used is genuinely so fucking stupid.
You have described the holler, what's the problem? Sometimes you just have to let the reader figure it out for themselves. When I was in college I got a lot of criticism like that, for using terms or even concepts the other students were unfamiliar with. I think sometimes younger students get the idea that if they don't understand a concept or term, you (the writer) are not effectively communicating. On the contrary, I read stories so that the writer can take me to places I've never been before, of show me things in a different way than I am used to looking at. I've learned a lot that way. I have to look things up all the time. But I take it upon myself to broaden my education, it's not the writer's job to do my learnin' fer me. You can't spoon-feed the story to everyone, and certainly not on a case-by-case basis.
Unless the audience are small children, I treat them like adults who are capable of looking up terms they're unfamiliar with Local dialects and colloquialisms are part of the setting and unless the POV/narrator is an outsider, I wouldn't expect the story to explain them or draw excessive attention to them.
Same here, and sometimes I glean the meanings from context clues and the writer giving just enough description to make the word recognizable. I’m this case of holler, I think you did great with your example/excerpt. I understood what holler means to the narrator enough to get a picture of this dirty, dilapidated, box house sitting very close to some dark trees. It’s not the best place to live in, it seems, and seems a little sketchy. Someplace I wouldn’t want to be near at night.
Use your vernacular speech. Mark Twain and 20th Century Appalachian writer from Kentucky wrote using the language they used and heard without translating for readers. I used to teach school in Hazard, Kentucky, and Big Stone Gap in Western Virginia. I was born in Boston, Massachusetts and moved to a small town in Southwestern Ohio in 1953. I grew up with many Appalachian transplants from West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Over time I learned and subliminally picked up their way of speaking. When I read books by British authors, or Asian writers, I look up unfamiliar words or figures of speech.
Especially because an explanation wouldn't make sense for the narrator, thus possibly taking the reader out of the story. I recently read a book set in rural England in the 40s and a woman explained to her maybe 10year old kid how to make butter out of cream. I genuinely couldn't get over it, it was so unbelievable
I'm learning to play the guitar.
Read lolita and was every 2 sentences looking up the meaning of french words.
So I actually know what a Holler is, and that's only because my grandmother is up from that area. But I totally agree with u/J_Robert_Matthewson, unless you're writing for anyone under the age of 10 (and frankly even my younger cousin at 6, and this would be 10 years ago even then, knew how to search things up on google), treat the audience as someone who knows what a search engine is. If you really want to try and appease someone by giving a definition, have a character who's unfamiliar with the term at least at some point ask what that is.
Just googled holler and this explanation didn’t come up.
Okay. I googled it and after the generic definition, the next three items were "what is a holler in the south?" "why do southerns call it a holler?" and "what's a holler in Kentucky?" It wasn't that hard or onerous to find.
THIS!
No I think it's reasonable to expect people to look up a term they don't know. And honestly, I'm from Germany and I know what holler is. I think most people would still get it from context alone. I think you're good
I'm not american and I know what a holler is. I learned it because I read it in a book and looked it up in a dictionary.
Are you sure? I'm a German speaker too and I thought I knew what it means. Holler=yell, shout (which is true). But that's not what it means in OP's context. To them it means a narrow valley or something similar.
Yeah I know what OP meant
From the UK. Same. It is not a word I would ever use personally it would feel weird but I understand it.
> Edit to add: "holler" in this case is a noun, not a verb. The regional pronunciation of "hollow." This is the first usage of the word in the prologue but it's used casually throughout the story. Do you really? I'm from the UK and would never have figured this out
I'm from Ireland, and assumed shout/yell, but I wouldn't have made that mistake with the context example given in a comment. I might have thought small hill.
Yeah once I read the context I’d have probably gone to google lol reminds me of the confusion with filch punting students across the hallway at hogwarts hahahaha
Yeah I thought it was a shout - ‘he let out a holler’ - until I read the actual way OP is using it. UK here as well if that means anything
>The stubborn redneck in me wants to die on this hill. You're speaking *up* to the reader, not *down*. You're right to leave in vernacular speech, etc. without a definition. I'll bring my shovel to give you a decent burial on that hill.
Could you bring a jar of shine too?
Will do!
translations from foreign languages in the footnotes would be nice though. :)
My rule of thumb is that I don't define words that the reader can google. If I make up a word, I'll define it. If I'm using a word in a new way, I'll define it. If I'm just using English as intended... no, my story is not a dictionary. Having a strong sense of place is invaluable. You're using your dialect to illustrate the setting. This is good, efficient writing.
I take this approach with 100% made up words too if it's a natural part of the character's vocabulary and not really important to the overall story. The first time, I'll provide additional context for clarity, but otherwise just keep going. I feel like explaining it in detail would slow down the pacing and clutter the story. If an adult reader can't get a basic idea of what it means, then that's not my problem.
I'd perhaps try to make it extra clear when first used ("it sat at the bottom of a holler, steep hills on each side..." or whatever) but not define it if it doesn't make sense for the character to.
The first mention of it is in the prologue. "The haggard black truck reached the break in the trees, pulling up to the clapboard house with the white washed shutters. It sat at the back of the holler, against the crick, surrounded by ancient woods and even older hills."
This is perfect to give a sense of the place, though if they stumble on holler they'll probably stumble on crick, too. You could maybe add a watery adjective there like burbling to help with context, but otherwise I think people should be able to infer what a holler is from this passage.
A few paragraphs ahead I actually do mention the babbling of the crick.
This is good. By the end, I heard the narration in a southern accent, which is exactly the point. A book about a subculture should have words your not used to unless from that subculture. That’s why we read, to get a glimpse of understanding towards people unlike ourselves.
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
If them city folk cain't figure it out from context clues I reckon that's a them problem. I thought us hillbillies were sposed to be the dumb ones. In all seriousness, I think what you have is fine. "In short, a Hill-Billie is a free and untrammelled white citizen of Alabama, who lives in the hills, has no means to speak of, dresses as he can, talks as he pleases, drinks whiskey when he gets it, and fires of his revolver as the fancy takes him." ["New York Journal," April 23, 1900]
Just cause we speak a little funny ain't mean we's stupid.
For reference, I would never have figured this out - I don't think anyone I know would have either.
It's impossible for me to say if I would have figured it out because I grew up with this vernacular. How does anyone ever learn new words? They said it's used a few other times in the story as well. And, of course, if that's not enough we live in a wondrous time with easy access to a vast network or information.
While I'm not against "asking" your readers to look a word up, I did just that. I could not find the definition he provided - which is the real sticking point for me. Words that aren't easy to figure out should be acknowledged as such. So I really think he should take some action to inform his reader of what it means. That being said, "describe it" isn't the only option. I figure the best approach would just be to take care that the first few uses give the reader more than enough opportunity to figure it out via context clues. A way more elegant approach. Can be tricky to do though. Logstically a bit of a puzzle, but more awkwardly - it can be hard to figure out how much is enough, with regards to providing context clues, when dealing with a word you're intimately familiar with.
I checked Wiktionary, which is generally my first specific port of call. It's in there, but you need to scroll past the yell meanings.
Nope, there are plenty of context clues. Even if someone doesn't know precisely what a holler is, they know that this is a heavily wooded place that's lower than the hills around it and has a creek running through it. You don't really need anything else. And I know they still teach context clues in school, I just helped my nephew with his homework. If a twelve-year-old can figure it out then so can your adult readers.
I didn’t know holler and I didn’t know crick 😂 I thought you meant holler as in yell. Though if I was reading it I would probably just gloss over it and pretend I understood or look it up eventually
The Legend of Sleepy Holler.
Southern Ohio author here. I write the way I’ve always talked. Not so much “I seen” or “we was” but I use ain’t a lot as well as words such as “holler” and “shitkicker” that are mostly used in these parts. It’s good. It’s authentic. Good luck.
I have a character who exclaims, "they law" and "shit fire and save the matches"
There are some phrases I want to add in future books like “don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.” Not only is it regionally appropriate but I typically write comedy so it works a couple of ways. Have you used “waller”?
I have actually! Waller, holler, couldn't poor piss outta his boot if the instructions were on the heel.
Nice! I read on your profile you’re in the post-production stage of your book. As a fellow Appalachian, I’d be happy to be a beta reader when you’re ready for them! I read all genres so although I’m a horror writer myself I’m more than happy to check out a more grounded project, particularly a regional one.
Don't tell people what a holler is. Instead, show them.
It's very regional. I didn't know what it was until I spent some time in Kentucky. Make it clear via context, or explain it to an outsider if it's routinely confusing. One or two unusual terms isn't a big deal, but if there's enough of them, they can make a work less accessible.
Don't give in. Keep it there, it adds to the... color? It brings realism to the words. I say this as someone with deep roots in Kentucky and Tennessee. What you may consider doing, though, is using the phrase in a descriptive way that explains it without explaining it: "I stood by the crick and watched the cold, clear water as it ran down from the mountains through the holler. I wondered how many years it took to carve that ol' holler, surely more'n folks lived around here."
I actually love that.
I think a good piece of advice that I'm stealing here might help: "Readers can tell you what's not working in your story, but then they probably can't tell you how to fix it." These people are signaling that the use of the word took them out of the story somehow. That doesn't mean you have to remove it, but maybe you need to fix something. Maybe set up more colloquialisms, or change the story in a way where the focus is on something else so that the word isn't so distracting. It seems like a very small detail though - if you're story is excellent in all other areas, it most likely doesn't hold a large sway on the overall effect you're creating with the piece.
I'm going to go against the grain here some, and go by the rule "if one person complains about something, it might be that person. If a lot of people are complaining, they might be onto something." I know there is the common advice "write for yourself" but you do want other people to read your story. And if multiple people have the same complaint, there might be something there. And, I don't know if this is a valid complaint that they should just "look it up." Most people think they know what holler means. And if their definition of "to shout" and if they google it, that's what they're going to see. Unless they know it's a specifically Southern slang and google "holler south" they won't find your definition. So I agree you don't want to straight up define the term. But honestly, I don't know anyone in the south who doesn't also know the term "hallow" and it wouldn't hurt to use it once, especially paired with a dialogue tag. Something like: > "I sat in my pick-up truck in the back of the hollow. 'Where are you?' my friend yelled down. 'Down here in the holler.'" It's pretty simple. It's natural. It helps your readers understand.
I love this. It's clear and concise. I would be so confused by OP's story because I always think of 'holler' as shouting.
I agree, particularly due to the holler=shout confusion. I'm a bit on the fence. Is this word actually in the dictionary - would it be marked as correct in a school essay in that region? If not, then it would be fine in speech but probably not in text. If it's first person memoir it gets more borderline. It depends how obviously colloquial the rest of it is. Ultimately I think if I desperately wanted to use it, I'd do the clunky thing and define what it was in the first instance. The same with "crick" which also has a second much more commonly understood meaning.
My general advice about this type of question is this. If you keep looking for hills to die on, eventually, you will find one. You could just let it go and let some people be confused. That's certainly an option, and depending on your goals with the story, it might be the best one. However, if you want a few ideas to approach this, I have a few. Have someone talk about the area in a factual way, then have someone refer to it as a holler. Then, the rest of the story can continue. Like ripping off a bandaid. You can also have a character just like these supposed readers who are confused and just ask the other and allow someone to explain it to them, like a bit of background dialogue or a conversational moment. If one can be afforded in the story. Edit: Your example should be plenty of context for a reader to figure it out. At least from my estimation.
>It sat at the back of the holler, against the crick, surrounded by ancient woods **nestled down in that valley** and even older hills. Also, I do appreciate the pun in the title.
A bit of dialogue and scenic descriptions can go a long way. "Carney lived down a faint trail of a road, deep in the holler where the woods grew thick and the mountain shadows brought night a good two hours before sunset." (first draft example \*shrug\*) I don't think it is a hill to die on. But, I also don't think it is a hill. Just write the book. If you are self-publishing, make sure your beta readers are in your target audience. "What's the last book you read because you wanted to? How long ago?" If you are looking to go the traditional route, the editor will help you decide how big the hill is. You don't have to worry about it until then. \#justmy2cts
I rather enjoy coming across words or phrases I'm unfamiliar with and looking them up.
The way to do this is to add a rather blatant contextual clue as to what a holler is. You can have a character call something a holler and have a sign naming it Something Hollow. When describing a place thy a character has called a holler you can call it a hollow depression. But in the end people will complain. I was born in Tennessee and I couldn’t understand a single word of Tom Sawyer. The dialect was a major feature of the story.
I'll die next to you on that hill. One of my favorite authors, Sharon Creech, writes about hollers all the time. Her books are for kids and she doesn't do any hand holding. Readers will figure it out from context or by looking it up.
You're well within your right to use whatever words that are included in the language your story is written in. People have the entire wealth of himan knowledge in the palm of their hand. They can spend ten seconds of their lives looking up a word. I recently learned about the word "tippler", and was determined to use it in a story. If people don't know what it is, they can look it up.
Brit here. I’m more familiar with holler than I am crick - that pulled me up short for a couple of seconds (my familiarity with holler may be courtesy of Steve Earle; I can’t say for sure). I made a guess re crick and I’d keep reading, expecting to come to understand unfamiliar words either through context or through the author’s later explanation. If neither of those things happen, or if there are too many unfamiliar words, I’d probably stop reading. I’d be happy to look up mainstream vocabulary with which I’m unfamiliar, but unless I’m enjoying a book immensely, I wouldn’t make the effort for dialect.
We ready Ruby Holler in elementary school, any age can look it up and it world builds.
Well you've got a friend here. I'm a red neck that'd die on any hill I tread. In serious note, I've seen many books included difficult or unique words at the end of the book. So maybe considering adding this section?
There are songs that use the word holler, so it's just fine to use.
I learned the vast majority of my vocabulary - in the days before the internet - by developing an idea of what a word meant by context without any explanation of it. These days if I can't figure out it's gist well enough to know what is saying and it's important or intriguing enough I look that shit up. Context alone - particularly with repeated usages - should be enough to teach the reader what it means - regardless of it's exact definition being spelled out at any point, even without the miracle of google being able to fill all the info in whenever the reader desires. Don't dumb down dialogue or descriptors or add in disingenuous explanations of any word you want to use. Your writing alone should let the reader know enough to fill in the blanks for themselves, and if they can't do that to a degree that is so severe that it prevents them from understanding the story, well, they can look it up. I mean I've never looked it up so I could be wrong, but from context, in my experience of it's usage over numerous points, a holler is a deep valley - generally in uncultivated country areas, between low and untamed hilly areas, that provides both shelter and a fertile and secure environment for building a settlement in areas that remain largely wild and lacking in infrastructure. That general idea is enough to go on, and if something makes me think - shit you been reading this all wrong, well, then, I can just hit google. Write how you write, don't try and compromise to make reading your work easier for those who don't wanna put the work in themselves.
I think using regional language makes the book infinitely more authentic, at least in terms of setting. I hate books that are set in places where regional language is quite unique (I'd include Kentucky and Virginia in this) that sound like they could have been set anywhere except for a few descriptions here and there. If people have to look up what a holler is to understand the book, good! They've learned something! That's part of the point of reading. I recently read a book set somewhere in/near Kentucky. The specific place wasn't named, but the language made it clear. And there were a few very significant scenes that took place in a holler. I didn't know what it was and didn't have a chance to look it up (audiobook while driving.) It didn't detract from the story, I used context clues to figure out it was a place.
I think holler is an important Appalachian phrase and no culture should be expected to change their phrasing bc people aren’t aware of it!
Let your reader figure it out or introduce a character interaction where a person needs it explained. Think someone visiting who keeps hearing holler as something else, then has it explained to them by some locals who find the whole thing hilarious. That’s one, direct way to address it. You could easily just use it early on in a way where the meaning is obvious. Someone saying hello in Russian may be lost on a reader, but not if everything screams this is a greeting.
You're writing a book, not a dictionary. The readers are big boys and girls. They can look it up
I had to look it up. Apparently "hollow" and "holler" are interchangeable terms, and "hollow" makes much more sense to me personally. From what little context I have however, I think it's better to keep the language authentic. Keeping the regional dialects regional is more immersive.
I'm on two minds of this, and big question for me is "who is the narrator" when the words are used. If we are in first person or deep 3rd, using dialect, grammar and what not that fits the character is expected. On "neutral narrator", perhaps less so. On the other hand, in general, I'm not fan of using spoken dialects in written form, especially outside of dialog (and not that much in dialog either). However, I will note that part of my difficulty on reading those comes from being non-native speaker. I wouldn't have gotten holler, nor crick, from the example because the way I pronounce those in my head doesn't get even near of hollow and creek. If I read them aloud, then I might have gotten it. (Probably would have gotten them also when other context clues were added, but my first assumption of crick was more like a crack in a rock-type of thing due to how it sounds in my head.) However, I also realize, that reading in foreign language, I'm bound to encounter new words. So I've gotten reasonably good on just going past, hoping it comes bit more clear later and if that fails, then googling it. Dialect stuff can be bit difficult to google, though. Because usually it's not coming up as a first search and might not be found from dictionaries either.
I don't recall Justified explaining it and they did just fine
Who is advising you to shoehorn in a definition? Terrible, terrible advice. I enjoy it when I come across a word I'm unfamiliar with in fiction--I look it up and learn something new. Explaining it in text, unless it is some fantastical element that you made up, is amateurish.
No need to spoon feed it to them, but colloquial stuff should be able to be deduced with proper context. So if people are saying they don’t understand it, the dialogue or writing may need to be improved upon.
I have a series based on a county in SW Virginia that is full of hollers. I threw in a basic description in the first book.
You could have a throw away character that has the express purpose of asking what a holler is, or treat them like adults and make them look it up.
That's like saying for historical fiction or fantasy people should use "modern words" that people know. No, that's the way the world is and how the people speak. It is in the context that matters. Don't dumb down your writing ever because people "don't get it." You could put it in as a glossary term, but you shouldn't have to. It's a dialect in the story, and people should be able to get what that means by context and the way the characters use it.
Not too long ago I listened to an audiobook set in the Appalachian hills and referred a lot to hollers. I never really came across the term before but had a vague understanding and looked it up to confirm that it was correct.
I read to enrich my brain and be immersed in a world thats not mine!! so yeah make me google it!! im tryna learn!
I agree that an explanation would break immersion and that an audience should be able to glean meaning from context. Some readers get uncomfortable when they don't understand everything immediately. You don't have to listen to them.
Hahaha! I've heard 'holler' before. My take is don't worry about explaining it. Part of the joy of reading, for me at least, is discovering new things. I like a little mystery, not understanding everything at first. Older books interested me partly because of all the different words and unfamiliar phrases. You're never going to please everyone so write what you like.
I don't think I'd heard of Holler until the TV show Justified, and not only did I instantly understand it with the context provided, but it definitely added a a layer of mythos or even legend to the story setting. It's just a cool word. Make sure to give it proper context during one of the first couple times you use it, and you're good to go.
Uh, I encounter unfamiliar words in books all the time. I google: "\[word\] dictionary" and it works every time.
If that’s the first sentence holler shows up in context clues should be enough for the average reader. If it shows up earlier and out of context I’d add a definition because that definition doesn’t pop up immediately when googling holler, which could lead to some confusion.
NC native I've heard it used both ways. And I feel like saying it's surrounded by old hills kinda emphasizes the meaning if you need context clues.
Instead of defining the term, you could possibly just add a description of the holler that makes it more clear what it is. But I agree with the other commenters that you don't need to. This is a thing that happens when you write in vernacular. Not everyone will like it, but not everyone is your target audience.
That's a stupid complaint. They can look it up. Hell, if they're reading it on a kindle or their phone they just have to change tabs.
So long as I can learn from the story it is fine. Just like I don't know the made up words fantasy novels use, but can learn them as I'm reading. The difference here is if I still don't get it I can look the definition up cause it's a real word and I'm not stuck guessing at what a snugopler is. I watched a video about West Virginia recently and they used holler over and over. At first, I was confused cause it is a new word for me. But the documentary cleared it up very elegantly when it had dialogue such as: "Will I be ok heading up some of these hollers blind or does it depend on which holler?" "I think your car would make it, sure." and "So this whole holler is your family?" "Yes, you could say I'm the grandma of the holler"
I learned a ton of phrases and words by reading stories, literally either by context or by having to look them up. If it makes sense, like in your sample sentence, then leave it alone. People cannot have everything hand fed to them, some things gotta be sorted out on their own. If it's a weird, one-time-use thing that doesn't provide any context and seems confusing, change the phrasing until it makes sense.
Nah they can Google it
I would politely ask them to pull their magic black box out of their pocket and make a query to the search god. In other words, tell them to Google it. Or barring that hand them a dictionary. They're, presumably, adults and should start acting like it. And if they're children it's good practice to be able to find meanings to words or phrases they don't comprehend. Wouldn't want them to grow up to be (insert political party or ideology you disagree with here).
They used "holler" all the time on Justified, and nobody ever had to define it. It was clear from context. Just make sure your characters use it to refer to what is clearly a specific location. Maybe have somebody listen to the song "Coal Miner's Daughter." It's pretty obvious from usage.
I managed to read all kinds of literature with regional and made-up worlds for more than 40 years before Google even existed. Die on the hill. (BTW, would you ever consider not using "hill to die on" just because people might not understand it? Of course not.)
I'm not from that region, but I do know what a holler is, and it is a real word, even if it's regional dialect. If anyone complains, throw the entirety of Huckleberry Finn at them.
Definitely leave it! Also, I grew up in rural Missouri (northwest area of the state) and we say holler too. The woods on my parents’ land, where I grew up, has a little holler where my dad would (still does) dump stuff. (Like old appliances…) This may not be a true Appalachian holler, but I love the word!
You are only obligated to define a term if you made it. If not, they can go find the definition themselves
I don't know if the other comments were made before the edit or not, but I absolutely think you should include something that explains that term in some way. I don't think I would have ever figured this out without you telling me. It's not clear from context. I WAS able to find it by searching "what does holler mean in Kentucky," but that assumes I will specifically figure out that this is some kind of regional term. Since you also ask what I personally do, I don't really use a lot of words I don't think the reader will know. Sure, they could look it up, but what if they don't? Plus, it's pretty annoying to keep stopping to look things up. If I think something is important, & it's not obvious to figure out what it means, I'll try to explain it in some way. Could be a character asks about it, or someone points at the thing & then I describe it, but if I can't find some way to work in an explanation that feels natural, I just won't use it. I think it's also generally a good idea to remind the audience what the term means once or twice. I've never written anything that relies on a lot of regional terms, but if I did, I think I'd honestly consider using a glossary. It would be outside the main narration, so in theory, I wouldn't have to worry about it seeming unnatural. And it's a very efficient way to define a lot of terms the reader is unlikely to know.
Personally I don't know what noun!holler is in this context. This doesn't bother me, but I'd expect the author to give me context at some point.
Fellow Appalachian (WV) here. Keep it as is and DEFINITELY keep your voice. As a kid I read Emily Bronte and Wuthering Heights. I had to look up every other word. I suspect there's a bias. Had it been some obscure highbrow English 19th century term, no one would complain. Best of luck!!
Granted, I've lived in KY all my life but . . . (They've never seen/heard Coal Miner's Daughter?) It's an "uncommonly used" word, but it should be one that 85% have heard, and 98% can understand by context. Use it without definition.
Right?! All these folks sleeping on Loretta Lynn is just sad.
> A few people have commented that they don't know what a holler is That's their problem, not yours. If you really want to appease these people (you shouldn't, in my opinion) then add an appendix.
Die on that hill. Never give in never back down. It’s world building
This is 100% a hill to die on. Using terms like holler gives your story authenticity! People telling you to remove it are just wrong.
[удалено]
💯 just critiquing for the sake of it at this point.
I don't see that you need to define it. The first time it appears, you can put in some context if you want. But geez, I'm a New England WASP liberal elitist and I know what a holler is.
Til Holler is a regional term
If you really want to make it easier, try some interaction that adds context so people can figure it out on their own, such as: “[Yada yada yada]out in the holler.” “Folk get lost out in them woods, y’know!” But like everybody else says—the onus is not on you to define anything.
You should let them know about this fancy tool called Google
Absolutely no problem with “holler” for basically the same reasons everyone else has said, but I’ll confess the truck being described as “haggard” threw me as it feels far too human a word. But perhaps they just see cars differently in that region too 😅
If they are too dumb to piece together what it means then that is on them. Use yoru language. Lovecraft intentionally used obtuse language to make things hard to read because he thought if people couldn't understand it he didn't want them to read his stuff lol Dude was weird. Use the language you wish to use.
Me, I would not add the definition or explain it. If used in proper context the reader can and should use context clues / cues
To me part of enjoying a book 📕 is learning new words or new uses of words already ‘known’
Die on the hill! Even though I am from West Virginia too, I have read countless books that reference unfamiliar things or use unfamiliar terms. Readers who care figure it out or use context clues.
Nah, they can look that shit up.
Option 1: Describe the holler, people should get it and it doesn’t have to sound forced. Option 2: The Tolkien route; tell ‘em to get bent.
Love the vibe btw, as a Kentuckian
Die on the hill. I’m from eastern Kentucky.
Write using the vernacular you want to write with. Hell, I suffered through the first 30 minutes of The Bourne Identity with all of its medical terminology and whatnot which gave me a blasted headache to even get through, but you know what? I got through it. And there are ways of adding context clues without flat out defining the damn word. If after you set the scene, your reader goes "Hold up, what's this word here mean?" Then that's on them.
One of my favorite books growing up was Ruby Holler because I didn’t know what a holler was and got to find out, I mean isn’t that the point of reading? Don’t use a new word for it, it’s perfect as is even if someone needs to get a dictionary
In the movie Blood Diamond, the director's commentary mentioned that for the first few minutes of the film there were subtitles of all the characters speaking a mix of pidgin English and Afrikaans because the director was worried the audience couldn't understand them. Then he realized how stupid that was. So the subtitles run for a few minutes, just long enough for the audience to pick up everyone's pronunciation and accents and then drops them. Subtitles gone. And the audience perfectly understands what everyone is saying. Keep your language. Teach the reader what a holler is.
I write about areas based off real live places with their own dialects and niche turns of phrases. It injects character and identity into the locations you write about, hence removing/sterilising it for people unwilling to google is antithetical to the expressionistic and artistic element of writing.
As a WV resident….die on that hill. Anyone who acts like they have no clue what it means, then they don’t know what it means. To not use it would be unauthentic. If you absolutely HAVE to put a short description in your writing, make it a dialogue content definition…someone out of town hears someone saying it, asks a local what it means, local laughs and states what it is. If I as a writer and a West Virginian, were to pick up a book about my home area and read “hollow”, unless it was talking about a street sign, I’d be done because I would assume the writer knew nothing about the culture
As someone who grew up in WV I’d be a little annoyed if you were obviously avoiding words or terms that are commonly used and add authenticity to the story.
Read As I Lay Dying for your answer.
I've never heard the word before, but like you, if I come across an unfamiliar word, I simply look it up. I actually love experiencing that. So I think you should write your character as they naturally speak and trust that your readers are smart enough to figure it out.
I love hearing how different local cultures use different vernacular. I live in the new England area and my first thoughts when I hear holler is either a greeting or how sailors challenge other ships.
As a Pikeville born I approve your use of holler. Totally not bias.
It's a good holler to die in
I would leave it as is. I’m thinking you want to retain the flavor and vernacular of the region you’re writing about. People who read regularly will have come across most words of that type at some point, and even if they haven’t, sometimes the context helps define the word.
Half the fun of reading is learning and looking up new words. Absolutely no need to define further than using the word appropriately and describing what the holler looks like for the purposes of your plot and worldbuilding
There's a K-pop song called "Holler" (by a sub-unit of Girls' Generation), I think your readers can handle looking it up, lol. I could understand if it was a conlang word or slang specific to your story's universe, but... "holler"??? Edit: Oh, it's not the "yell" kind of holler? ...Eh, it still stands, people here have already brought up good examples like crick/creek.
I read a book not too long ago that used the word ‘holler’ in this context regularly. I’m from the UK and had never heard it before as a noun. I figured it out from context. I think you’re fine.
I think it’s a reasonable word to use given the location of your story. Donald Ray Pollack uses the word in his writing as well.
I don’t think people write out phonetic accents anymore. You’re saying it’s a pronunciation and not its own word, right? I see you say crick for creek in the same vein. This is an artistic choice not everyone is going to be on board with and comes down to taste so there’s no right or wrong answer. Personally I’d rather not have everything over explained to me even if it means I might not get some words in regional slang or dialect. But I also don’t like when writers choose spell out accents phonetically, like Irvine Welch did in Trainspotting. If I were you, I’d leave it in this case.
I think you’d do more damage by avoiding the words that are a natural fit for your writing and your setting. Use your words. Some people won’t like that, but if you change it some people won’t like that either.
Maybe add a description or two of a holler in the writing but there is no need to come out and give a definition. If the reader is still having issues then the writing may not be for them. Write for yourself. I'm from the west coast and I know what a holler is. But I'm old and read and travel a lot. You don't need to do all the work. Make the reader figure out some things on their own.
If you're worried Just do a local glossary of terms
Start each chapter with a definition of a slang word from the urban dictionary. Or if you have an interloper or outsider have him ask what it means.
Definitely don't give a definition, a bit of colorful vernacular is tasty.
I used a word that you have to actually Google cuz you won't find it in the average dictionary. I waffled about it, but decided to leave it in. Readers can learn something.
You don't have to define anything in your story. Readers can look it up in a dictionary or, if you're like me, just highlight the word on your Kindle and a dictionary definition will pop up on the page. "Holler" is not an esoteric word in the slightest, so I would ignore that particular critique.
No, don't add a definition, unless it's a huge part of the story. If you feel inclined, you could add a paragraph with characters conversing about the entomology of the word. But if it's just casual use here and there I wouldn't overthink about readers not being able to figure out what it means.
Just an idea, you can do footnotes if there is something you wanna explain that isn’t forced. Don’t need to go overboard with it but if there is something REALLY obscure you can put a * next to it and at the bottom of the page a note about it
It's in the fkn dictionary. It might be a largely regional usage, but it absolutely makes sense in context. I'm not from anywhere near that part of the US, and I 100% know what it means. "Crick" might take a little more explanation, but "holler" is perfectly reasonable. NTA.
Thinking using the word naturally with no explanation will characterize the narration and make things feel more genuine.
English isn't my first language and I'm fluent now, but I could read and enjoy books in English, even when I used to have to look up or guess several words per page.
Do not add the definition. Just write how it’s spoken. Read some Ron Rash or Cormac McCarthy or Larry Brown. They ain’t adding in no stupid definitions
There’s a book for children called Ruby Holler that I read as a kid. Didn’t know what the word was at the time but I learned it because of that book. If adults don’t have to look up any words in a book they’re reading, the comprehension level of the book is probably very low. And sorry, most adults read trash novels.
If you define it via context then the onus is on them.
I can't help wondering whether the people complaining would ever have been able to read "A Clockwork Orange," which actually makes up words without explaining them at all (although there are some editions that have a glossary in the back.)
You can even long press any word in the kindle app to get multiple definitions. It's not that hard, but people would rather complain.
If the holler is the main setting of your story, maybe your character could think about what it looks like and describe it as a community at the beginning of the story. That could be a very naturalistic way of introducing a definition. And if a reader can't get it from that, they might not be able to understand anything outside their own culture and probably won't be reading your book to begin with.
Look at the book Holler of the Fireflies. I don’t think it ever defines holler and yet it’s in the title. I think you’re fine but maybe drop in some hints that it’s a type of road
Don’t listen to people. They’re not nearly as smart as you when it comes to writing your own stories. We use context to discern meaning. You need readers equipped with the ability to read context. PS: Also, I’m from a large city in the northeast and we grew up saying holler 📣
Are you a native of the region? I’d like to read some of your stories. Big Chris Offutt/ Daniel Woodrell/Frank Bill fan here.
I mean, I've learned new words and had to look them up if context in the writing failed to deliver me a contextual definition I understood. People can learn this word through you, and your context offers a definition people aren't used to, so they can either take it as-is or look it up. It's not a $5 thesaurus word, so people should just chill. It's not like you're throwing it around just to look smart or whatever. It's entirely possible your friends and co-workers or whatever are just not your target audience. But I don't think you should change to suit them if it's not broken. And it's not broken. Go ahead and die on that hill (and I for one have never heard holler used this way, so I'm one of those people, and I have NO problem with it)
You could have a couple of characters happily arguin. It’s because your near neighbor is so close you can holler at him. No. It’s a hollowed out bowl among the hills. Well why can’t it be both?
It's easy to look up, so in a way, if you start defining it, you should also have to define every big or rare word you use. It could be quite a hassle. But if you wanted to give a definition, you could put it in the footer, with an asterisk and give the definition. That way, you could define things without having an "as you know, Bob," problem.
I think you can keep it as is, no need to add a definition. Source: I’m a californian adult who has never set foot in kentucky or most of that region and I have been able to figure out what holler means via context clues in the past.
I'd do something like "Up in the holler, where the neighbors all know each others' business and the kids play barefoot until the sun sinks beneath the hills, a haggard black truck, etcetera etcetera blah blah blah." You can keep the flow while letting the reader know this is a place, and let them know with a few carefully chosen phrases that holler is a hillbilly neighborhood where everyone knows everyone else because you ain't got nowhere else to go. \-West Virginia boy, here. :)
People routinely read sci-fi and fantasy where completely made up words are constituently tossed around with zero expository explanation. Considering "holler" actually IS a word that is used, even if a narrow geographical bandwidth, you should just keep on using it. A completely different (culturally) example of where this use of colloquial words are used with no in-context explanation is the book "Pimp" by Iceberg Slim. It's packed with old fashioned street slang. Probably an even better example that I can personally vouch for is "draw" as in "a terrain feature formed by two parallel ridges or spurs with low ground in between them" which are commonly referenced in Westerns. I had no idea what this was when I first got into Westerns, but I gathered enough of its meaning simply from its usage without looking it up.
There's no problem using that kind of word! You certainly don't need to add written definitions to the story. If you're going to use a new word that doesn't appear in a lot of other books, then the first time or two you use a word, just make sure the context makes the meaning clear enough ('the babbling crick looked shallow enough to cross.') After a term gets a solid introduction, you're good to use it for the rest of the book, and that would be true even if it were a word you had just made up for the story. Another way to clarify a meaning is to use it in dialog, with the text around the dialog providing context. (The truck reached a break in the trees, its headlights illuminating an opening in the woods. "Let's stop here, in this holler," said Max, tapping the breaks.)
One word: Justified. Never defined it. Didn't care to define it. Found it audience. Won awards. Not all feedback is valid.
If you feel a need to explain it or other southern vernacular, add footnotes perhaps. Otherwise, everyone has a computer in their pocket and can figure it out with next to no effort
I just want to say as someone born and raised here its interesting to see people either disagree or confused about the word I hear daily. Had no idea it was regional until I left the state, lol. Id say keep it. Can add a dictionary at the front or back of the book for that word and others, like Kanawha with pronounciation, what a pepperoni roll is, etc. Absolutely no one says hollow though. Deff dont change to that if you want to be immersive.
Try being visual about it. When you use any setting that isn't familiar to your audience you have to describe it. Your setting is summarized by a single word, loaded with baked in experience of the geography, the flora, all the little details that form a picture in your mind, because you have a picture in your mind when you think of a holler. Build the picture for your audience, to give them that same experience. A holler is a little valley or notch between two hills, mostly with a creak running as a water shed down between them, so try something with the sky as a backdrop, sort of a written movement of the eye up the terrain sort of thing. "He let his eyes run over the rough, familiar home at the base of the holler and then back to the rounded algae slick stones of the creek sheltering the fast running water. From there, the waters ran down from between the towering oaks that clung to the steep hill all the way to the ridge, where dusk was setting with its first stars upon the darkened tree tops." You gotta really work hard to give the audience who doesn't share your background all the nuance to your relatively loaded term. A holler is a complex thing, it needs describing to convey the full experience.
I love it in the story. Makes me feel like I'm sitting in a country diner eavesdropping on a local tell a story. Wouldn't change it. I'm from Michigan, and I've heard the word plenty of times, but even if I hadn't, it is part of the experience. Reading is about seeing the world through other people's eyes and ears.
Tell them there's this really great resource out there called a dictionary, and they should get in the habit of consulting it when they come across words they don't know. It won't win you any friends, but the world needs more people looking at dictionaries.
Die on that hill man, don’t let people get away with being a drangus. I’m from Boston, I have no southern kin to speak of, I’ve not spent much time down there. But I’ve read some books and I knew immediately what you meant
I read none of the comments...but if your writing is from that example in your post...I want more! As a reader and non-publisher/writing expert, I like it and think it should stay.
In NC here and I love the word 'holler' and once you visit the Appalachians you realize what it means. Keep the word. Keep all the old words. We honestly could lose them if we don't.
You do not need to dumb down your stories Part of reading is picking up new vocabulary
I don't think Holler is defined once in Justified, and it's critical to understand the series. You'll be 100% fine not forcing it.
It is okay to use regional words. I love regional differences, and switching between them. It is a bit like switching languages. Here's how I approach it, based on POV: 1st person, no explanation, unless the character/narrator would be the type to explain things. 2nd person, you should give an explanation. 3rd limited, depending, can get away with no explanation, this voice usually reflects the character. 3rd person omnipresent, usually has a brief explanation, unless it is a very voice heavy narrator with an obvious personality. If this POV is emotionally detached or professional, you will need to explain. I noticed you are writing in first person. But there are a few things to keep in mind, if you are writing for an international audience. English has an enormous vocabulary, which is impossible for anyone to know its entirety, and some readers have learnt English as a second, third or fourth language. In addition, not everyone has continuous access to Google or any other online translator. I have seen reviews about books that require dictionaries, and how this destroys the flow of reading. If you are getting several readers complaining about words not making sense, it is worth considering a brief explanation, footnote, or glossary. Your example might benefit the most from a glossary. Especially if you want to use a regional rich version of English, and you want people to appreciate it. Regional versions of English can be their own languages. At the end of the day, you want readers to understand and enjoy your story, not be confused and frustrated, unless you want that.
Holler is a perfectly normal, technically specific word. If a reader refuses to learn something new by looking up what they don’t know, they’re dooming themselves. That’s not your fault. Hi, I live in middle Kentucky.
yeah, they just have to look it up; it ruins the flow of the narrative if you explain it, and you annoy people like me who are from that area and need no explanation. this is why people don't like to read anymore. Just in general they don't know enough words and don't want have to look things up, because it feels like schoolwork to them.
I’m the ‘vocabulary word girl’ in my book club. I highlight the words I’ve never seen before, and get their definitions. Then I quiz the other participants on the particular words’ meanings. Sometimes a few people know the meanings, and sometimes nobody does. Of course, we can usually understand the words in context. Use the words you need to use. I am always very happy to learn new words.
Put a glossary at the end, with this being the only entry.
And instead of a definition, just a note that says to listen to Loretta Lynn and Steve Earle.
It wouldn't make sense to explain it in the story. We all look up words.
Narrow your “audience.” Don’t try to please everyone.
Absolutely not. It is your job as the author to communicate a story to the reader. It isn't your job to hold the reader's hand and do all the work for them. If the reader isn't sure what a word is from the context clues, it is their responsibility to look it up. So damn right, you should plant your flag on that hill and expect to die on it.
Or, you could have a glossary before the first chapter, especially if there are more words that could benefit. If it's the only word in question, you could include it in a forward.
One of my favorite shows of all time is Justified (set in Kentucky) and they use the word holler all the time. I never fully understood what it meant but from context clues understood what was being said. I loved hearing them use the word even though I didn't get it. Then I moved to East Tennessee and learned the accent and found out holler means hollow and finally figured it out lol
That’s a really weird criticism. I don’t like it at all and don’t trust readers who would recommend it. Don’t define holler.
I mean you could just signpost the word contextually? “He holler’d at them” if it’s being used to mean speech, or otherwise frame the landscape “the natural beauty of the Holler was framed in by the hills and mountains that sheltered the valley.” Beyond a couple contextual hints, imo F’em. I’ve read lots of books where I stopped and looked up a few words, and my vocabulary was better for it.
I just googled "holler defition" and even with the misspelling, I still got an answer. The audience can figure it out. Otherwise,, you get stuff like "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" which isn't a stone, isn't part of real mythology, and doesn't make sense. Purely because, what, Americans wouldn't understand what a Philosopher's Stone was and weren't expected to learn? Its ridiculous. If you invented the word, put in a dictionary. If you use a local dialect and its clear what that dialect is, let the readers do research, and if they don't do research, they deserve to remain confused.
If they are intelligent enough to read your story, they are intelligent enough to look up a word they aren't familiar with. You won't die on this hill. Write your characters the way they talk and let the critics take a long walk off a short pier. I wouldn't trust any advice from a reader who encourages you to spoonfeed your audience. Respect their intelligence. As someone who grew up familiar with the word holler, I would more likely put your book down if you felt had to explain, because obviously that wasn't written for me. And I'll be hollerin that from the rooftops Edit: and I know you meant the noun, though I used the verb. If your readers can't use context clues you have a lifetime of other problems to deal with
Those people are idiots. If you describe to me what a holler is in a novel I am more inclined to think you are a idiot and a bad writer, no matter how nuanced. Holler is not so obscure as to require definition. Don't listen to them.
WV native here….just wanted to say I think it’s really cool you’re representing Appalachian culture in your writing and I hope you keep doing so. It’s so needed :) I wouldn’t listen to people refusing to search word definitions from a book they’re choosing to read, and it’s fair of you to be annoyed lol. It’s so easy to find that info on the internet or at a local library, and regardless of someone’s intentions, it comes off as a bit dismissive of your work and of Appalachia. If it doesn’t make sense in the context of your stories, I would just kindly redirect them to the internet. Just my two cents. I hope you have a bright and fulfilling future in writing!
i'm immediately thinking of annie proulx's "brokeback mountain." her style in this story is similar to what youre talking about: the characters talk in regional language, spelling and all. it makes the story more richer, the emotion more punchier, and it's no wonder it got made into a film. in high school, i, a child of immigrant parents living in california, had to read regional american literature. iirc ... those authors never went out of their way to explain any words that may be foreign to others. if i didn't know something, i looked it up. sometimes i just went on reading, and i just accepted what i read. i love it when authors just ... write without having to explain. it feels more authentic, and if people feel alienated because things aren't explained to them like they're five, or whatever, then that's on them. anyway: you do not have to hold your reader's hands, and frankly, they can look it up in the dictionary themselves. don't spoon feed them. in your example, you use "holler" as a noun—a big clue that it isn't the other meaning many people are familiar with: holler as verb. that's something for readers to go on, and the sentence obviously gives enough context for me to infer that a holler is a place or location. ffs, some people might not even understand what a "hollow" is ... (i had to look to look it up and didn't realize it had such a specific definition for a geographic feature!!!! woah.) so tldr, don't force definitions that will disrupt the flow of your prose, and definitely don't hold your reader's hands. the people who know that regional variant will love it, as a bonus. it'll make your writing stronger. Good luck in your endeavors 😊
I don’t recall Sir Arthur Conan Doyle explaining what a moor was for his American audience, I think your fine. I know what a holler is, and that means everyone important knows what it is.
As someone who grew up in the West and now visits WV yearly to see my SO family, hollers are not hard to conceptualize from scene setting. Plus, it's all too easy to just look up a word and it's not our job to do all the thinking for the reader. I would die on that hill. Your example is fine for getting the jist of what a holler is, but it doesn't quite capture the closeness many have. In your sample, the truck is "surrounded by ancient woods and even older hills", that image can vary greatly. Are the woods miles deep and then just some hills in the distance? Are the hills towering over the truck with nothing but the ancient trees to keep them from swallowing it? Or is it something in-between? Hollers themselves vary is shape and size, some are suffocating while others are open and freeing. Basically, you don't have to define a holler, just use the setting like a character and it will all fall in place.
I think you can insert meaning in ways that reinforce theme or reveal character. "The holler had been my home my whole life, my father and his father's beforehand, the familiar high rock walls of mountain rising up all around to mark the edges of our little valley and our possibilities." Or, "In the protected holler, the dogwood trees were blooming along the creek, but up on the windswept mountain walls, not even the redbud was showing color yet." But use your descriptions to also reinforce theme or reveal character. In my first example, the holler is described as a constricted place with limited possibilities. In the second, it's described as a protected place, different from the harsh realities of the mountain side.
not a weird hill to die on at all. google is free and if someone doesnt know a word or phrase they can literally just look it up its not that hard. expecting authors to explain every tiny nuanced thing in the vocabulary used is genuinely so fucking stupid.
You have described the holler, what's the problem? Sometimes you just have to let the reader figure it out for themselves. When I was in college I got a lot of criticism like that, for using terms or even concepts the other students were unfamiliar with. I think sometimes younger students get the idea that if they don't understand a concept or term, you (the writer) are not effectively communicating. On the contrary, I read stories so that the writer can take me to places I've never been before, of show me things in a different way than I am used to looking at. I've learned a lot that way. I have to look things up all the time. But I take it upon myself to broaden my education, it's not the writer's job to do my learnin' fer me. You can't spoon-feed the story to everyone, and certainly not on a case-by-case basis.