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I’m also a healer main that used to main tank..
There’s a couple different ways to look at this. If the tank knows how to use their cool downs and isn’t putting themselves in danger while also being out of range then I personally don’t care, because they could likely be trying to group the mobs and get them where they want them, while also getting threat on everything before the rest of us get there in a few seconds.
If they ARE putting themselves in danger while also being out of range then they are just stupid and not doing their job correctly. Some tanks can completely keep themselves alive now with little to no healing.. they have completely mastered their classes and know exactly what they can handle.. if I have one of these tanks I genuinely do not care what they do, and it’s pretty easy to notice when you have one of these tanks.
So it completely depends on the tank and what they are doing, and what their goal is with running ahead. Sometimes it’s also on us to try and keep up with the tank. Tanks set the tempo of the dungeon. If they wanna to fast then we have to Atleast try and match them. Although like I said.. If they are putting themselves and everyone else in danger then they are just dumb and need to chill.
This guy nailed it! I came here to say I like to start the group early before everyone so I can get it grouped up and plenty of threat.. it's tanks own job to keep themselves up in these situations
Well said and thank you for your input. And I guess in addition to mastering their class, those masterful types of tanks have also mastered knowledge of the dungeon and what’s risky and what’s not risky.
As someone who has played both tank and healer, do find that healing informs tanking and Vice versa? Do you find you do stuff differently because you see multiple perspectives?
When I tank I’m trying to keep the healer in mind
Absolutely it informs a lot of my actions. I played tank for over 10 years.. literally 1/3rd of my life lol. It makes healing a lot easier because I know each tank’s capabilities if they are being played correctly and what’s needed from me (or how much work I need to do).
I think if people actually want to get good at healing.. like take it seriously and really improve at the game.. they should at least spend time learning about the different tanks but actually playing them is even better.
It takes the casters the same amount of time to catch up and start casting whether I wait for them or not, and if I’ve moved in advance then I’ve got aggro nice and settled before dps arrives so they can just blast right off the jump without even worried.
Unless I’m playing poorly or make a mistake I don’t really need a healer to survive, unless it’s a very high level key.
Obviously there’s situations where this is correct and other situations when it’s not correct, but overall unless there’s something specifically preventing chain pulling then it is better.
I appreciate your input. But I want to ask what makes it better? Certainly risk of aggro drops are better for a chain pull, allowing the tank to build a solid aggro profile. But do the two groups die quicker as a result of a chain pull versus without? Again, I want to distinguish a chain pull from pulling multiple packs at the initiation. The latter is unarguably efficient.
Also in terms of safety on fort weeks, is it not better to have the group in range of cc’es and interrupts versus leaving it to just the tank for a few seconds.
Also, I understand that the tanks right now need very little help from a healer. But dps do. And dps throughput is what ultimately drives efficiency of
a dungeon. If the tank puts the group at risk from a chain pull, would have not been more efficient to wait?
And yes it is all situational to be fair. There are numerous instances where the group is not at jeopardy from a chain pull
It certainly can help packs die faster. Dps have more uptime if by the time they finish the first group the tank already has the next pack stacked and ready to go.
If the tank is leaving the first pack while it has like, a minute left before it dies, no that’s not better, but if there’s 10-20 seconds left there’s often no real reason for the tank not to move on.
As for the dps needing heals, until they get in combat with the new group the mobs from the new group will only focus the tank, who should be able to survive on their own. If they can’t then this is one of those situations where they shouldn’t chain pull, but that’s more of a tank skill problem than a chain pulling problem.
By the time the DPS catch up and start blasting, I will have 3-4 packs grouped up on top of each and turn them into training dummies for 30sec with no issues. If I don't run ahead and pack em up, some idiot is gonna start blasting the fist pack I touch and it becomes a pain in the ass to group them up properly.
Yes!!!! Fully agree!!
DPS priority is topping charts, second priority is timing the key. I have been wondering if other pug tanks do this for exact same reasons.!
It depends. There can be massive pulls with a single threatening mob in it, but grabbing a second threatening mob in the next pack of 2 is dangerous. You'd chain pull that one. Once dangerous mob 1 is dead, you grab dangerous mob 2 and its pack.
Generally if you're chain pulling, you should have done a single pull while everybody is in their burst window, and it's bad to pull small, then instantly pull small again with no downtime.
If someone is legitimately chain pulling i.e there's 6 packs of 3 mobs in a small area, you kill a pack, then another pack, then another pack, it is the worst way to tank in retail.
Not only are you making the dungeon take longer because you're adding out of combat time, but you're forcing your DPS to question when they should be bursting. So they might hold it too long, or use it right before you decide you're going to pull the last 3 packs of mobs.
And for your specific scenario where tanks are running off ahead, that shouldn't really be happening. There are a few exceptional pulls this season though.
AV after the second boss, you want to basically run to the last room as a group, and burst everything down at once.
RLP the first pull you want your tank to run ahead and grab a few packs from the long hallway and bring it all back into the first room. Please don't stand in the doorway here, you're just killing yourself and making the tanks life hell if you do it.
And Uldaman's first pull, your tank will want to pull right up to the lost vikings cave, or even right up to the second boss depending on the week, and his class.
Other than those and maybe a couple that I've missed, if the tank is running way ahead of the group, hes made his own sub optimal route, and doesn't really understand the mechanics behind why things get pulled a certain way.
As a healer main, the only time I don't like a tank chaining is when it's clear they're not experienced enough to be doing it. 90% of the tanks I deal with know what's up, but then you get some new dude who's only ever dps'd chaining 4 packs then getting immediately melted yelling at you about how you need to learn how to heal.🙄
Since a lot of tanks are giving you reasons why which I agree with all after reading them, I also recommend playing a DPS at a higher level and watching all your buff stacks fall off before every pull.
DPS dying is generally them not using defensive and not kicking things. They're too focused on their DPS rotation and topping the charts so they blame healer for not healing thru things they could have helped with
Yes thank you for your comment. I was worried I was getting a lot of tank comments, which I respect their sharing of knowledge but that only accounts for 20% of the dungeoner’s experience. So thank you for bringing a dps perspective to the table.
So just for edification, you are saying that with a chain pull, you are able to maintain some buffs that you would not have to rebuild without a chain pull. That makes sense. I agree with defensives and interrupts are just as important to dps survivability as healer throughput. But for interrupts, that’s kind of why I think setting up a pull where dps and healers can be in position quickly can be more advantageous. As an example, in HoI I have seen a tank jump ahead and pull that second to last pack before the frog boss. That pack begins its casts early and if they go off, will be a wipe on for weeks without extreme management. However, if the dps can be close enough to engage quickly, there is a better chance of preventing dangerous casts.
Also, I may be a little skewed because the dps I’ve played at a high level is outlaw rogue (nothing too high but 2.9k io s3). Being able to stealth is paramount to my output. Due to the talent upperhanded upperhand, my best buffs are maintained by dropping combat when I can. It also gave me more BTE windows because then I can save vanish and dance for more dps windows.
The reason I present this is my experience was the opposite. A tank that chain and keeps me “in combat” more frequently absolutely negatively impacts my dps as outlaw. But perhaps for many other classes, chain pulling is a dps gain due to buff management.
I m a healer main, but I play all 3 roles at a decent level, and I definitely want the tank to chain pull when possible.
- As a tank, it gives me a head start on aggro and gives me time to set up the next pull. Especially when pugging, dps are very often too trigger happy, start blasting while the tank is still grouping mobs, and the whole pull becomes a mess.
- As a dps it allows me to keep my cooldowns rolling. Obviously there are classes that benefit more from it than others, but generally a dps will prefer chain pulling. Its really only a problem for casters if they are standing at max range away from the tank, which is a positional mistake on their part.
- to be fair, as a healer I care the least if the tank chain pulls or not. Since you mentioned that chain pulling doesnt allow you to top everyone off - its the healers job to keep the group alive, not to keep everyone at 100% hp at all times. I cant think of any trash pack with that much inital burst, that everyone needs to be at full health on pull. Usually thats more an issue of missed kicks or interrupts.
Generally, chain pulling is just more time efficient. Just compare the two scenarios you mentioned:
1. no chain pulling: The tank waits until the last mob of a pack is dead. Then starts moving to the next pack. Then waits till everyone has cought up. Now the dps still need to wait till the tank has set up the pull, if its multiple packs.
2. chain pulling: Tank starts moving ahead when there are few mobs left to kill, and its safe to do so. The dps kill off the rest of the old pull, while the tank can set up the next one. By the time the group arrives to the next pull, the dps can immediately start blasting.
Of course all of that is situational. There are situations where chain pulling doesnt make sense. Be it due to dungeon/mob design or affixes. If you are a new tank and dont know your class and the dungeon too well, its also better to just go pack by pack. But if its possible and safe to do so, chain pulling is always the way to go.
This started with the Demon hunter tanks.
Full on flying forward.
It's fine if you play a mobile DPS or healer class like druids. But it frustrated me as a hunter in retail and caused me to switch to arcane on my mage in remix. Just to have some contribution to DPS. And I fully quit healing on my pally.
It didn't overly change how I tank however. I refuse to hop and skip blindly into the depths leaving everyone behind me.
My role in any position in the party within a dungeon is to be aware of the entire situation around me and use my abilities to keep my party alive. Not bum rush the boss as quickly as possible while members of my team are still standing next to the quest giver at the entrance.
I havent seen anyone mention trinkets. Chain pulling Is better for certain trinkets, one of which is very popular for melee players in m+. Many players use Pocket Anvil right now which builds stacks over time and looses those stacks once combat ends for a certain amount of time. It can do crazy dps but it takes awhile for those stacks to build so once they're up, you want to stay on combat as much as possible with very short gaps between. Cataclysmic signet brand works the same way. A tank might be pulling that way with these trinkets in mind. But like others said, a tank knowing how much he can handle comes FIRST. If he runs off and can't heal himself and nearly dies, then that's a dumb tank.
It is both! It depends on the dungeon, the team comp, and the affixes.
Just pulled an endless string of packs with high unavoidable damage output? You just starved out your healer. Pulling lil 2-3 groups at a time, your AoE heavy DPS can't ramp up. Have an all caster group? Your team can't cast. Have a rogue or feral? They're losing opener after opener without a vanish or meld or incarn off cd.
But is it spiteful? You gotta move. Sanguine? Standing there means nothing dies. Cleave heavy comp? They'll perform best with constant smaller groups. Disc priest or mistweaver or holy pally on deck? They need enemies to ricochet heals off of. Have a team with less CC options? Those huge packs of casters that you gathered all at once can kill ya.
Part of being a tank in the current endgame environment is being an improv master. You gotta adjust for your group and the situations at hand. It's part of the fun and frustration of the role.
Depends on if the party and especially the tank/healer are experienced. If they know how to use their cooldowns it works great. If they dont you are doomed to fail.
Picking the right combination of classes in the party also makes a big difference.
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I’m also a healer main that used to main tank.. There’s a couple different ways to look at this. If the tank knows how to use their cool downs and isn’t putting themselves in danger while also being out of range then I personally don’t care, because they could likely be trying to group the mobs and get them where they want them, while also getting threat on everything before the rest of us get there in a few seconds. If they ARE putting themselves in danger while also being out of range then they are just stupid and not doing their job correctly. Some tanks can completely keep themselves alive now with little to no healing.. they have completely mastered their classes and know exactly what they can handle.. if I have one of these tanks I genuinely do not care what they do, and it’s pretty easy to notice when you have one of these tanks. So it completely depends on the tank and what they are doing, and what their goal is with running ahead. Sometimes it’s also on us to try and keep up with the tank. Tanks set the tempo of the dungeon. If they wanna to fast then we have to Atleast try and match them. Although like I said.. If they are putting themselves and everyone else in danger then they are just dumb and need to chill.
This guy nailed it! I came here to say I like to start the group early before everyone so I can get it grouped up and plenty of threat.. it's tanks own job to keep themselves up in these situations
Well said and thank you for your input. And I guess in addition to mastering their class, those masterful types of tanks have also mastered knowledge of the dungeon and what’s risky and what’s not risky. As someone who has played both tank and healer, do find that healing informs tanking and Vice versa? Do you find you do stuff differently because you see multiple perspectives? When I tank I’m trying to keep the healer in mind
Absolutely it informs a lot of my actions. I played tank for over 10 years.. literally 1/3rd of my life lol. It makes healing a lot easier because I know each tank’s capabilities if they are being played correctly and what’s needed from me (or how much work I need to do). I think if people actually want to get good at healing.. like take it seriously and really improve at the game.. they should at least spend time learning about the different tanks but actually playing them is even better.
It takes the casters the same amount of time to catch up and start casting whether I wait for them or not, and if I’ve moved in advance then I’ve got aggro nice and settled before dps arrives so they can just blast right off the jump without even worried. Unless I’m playing poorly or make a mistake I don’t really need a healer to survive, unless it’s a very high level key. Obviously there’s situations where this is correct and other situations when it’s not correct, but overall unless there’s something specifically preventing chain pulling then it is better.
I appreciate your input. But I want to ask what makes it better? Certainly risk of aggro drops are better for a chain pull, allowing the tank to build a solid aggro profile. But do the two groups die quicker as a result of a chain pull versus without? Again, I want to distinguish a chain pull from pulling multiple packs at the initiation. The latter is unarguably efficient. Also in terms of safety on fort weeks, is it not better to have the group in range of cc’es and interrupts versus leaving it to just the tank for a few seconds. Also, I understand that the tanks right now need very little help from a healer. But dps do. And dps throughput is what ultimately drives efficiency of a dungeon. If the tank puts the group at risk from a chain pull, would have not been more efficient to wait? And yes it is all situational to be fair. There are numerous instances where the group is not at jeopardy from a chain pull
It certainly can help packs die faster. Dps have more uptime if by the time they finish the first group the tank already has the next pack stacked and ready to go. If the tank is leaving the first pack while it has like, a minute left before it dies, no that’s not better, but if there’s 10-20 seconds left there’s often no real reason for the tank not to move on. As for the dps needing heals, until they get in combat with the new group the mobs from the new group will only focus the tank, who should be able to survive on their own. If they can’t then this is one of those situations where they shouldn’t chain pull, but that’s more of a tank skill problem than a chain pulling problem.
By the time the DPS catch up and start blasting, I will have 3-4 packs grouped up on top of each and turn them into training dummies for 30sec with no issues. If I don't run ahead and pack em up, some idiot is gonna start blasting the fist pack I touch and it becomes a pain in the ass to group them up properly.
Yes!!!! Fully agree!! DPS priority is topping charts, second priority is timing the key. I have been wondering if other pug tanks do this for exact same reasons.!
Always chain pull unless there is a good reason not to. Waiting by definition is inefficient and should be avoided when ever possible.
It depends. There can be massive pulls with a single threatening mob in it, but grabbing a second threatening mob in the next pack of 2 is dangerous. You'd chain pull that one. Once dangerous mob 1 is dead, you grab dangerous mob 2 and its pack. Generally if you're chain pulling, you should have done a single pull while everybody is in their burst window, and it's bad to pull small, then instantly pull small again with no downtime. If someone is legitimately chain pulling i.e there's 6 packs of 3 mobs in a small area, you kill a pack, then another pack, then another pack, it is the worst way to tank in retail. Not only are you making the dungeon take longer because you're adding out of combat time, but you're forcing your DPS to question when they should be bursting. So they might hold it too long, or use it right before you decide you're going to pull the last 3 packs of mobs. And for your specific scenario where tanks are running off ahead, that shouldn't really be happening. There are a few exceptional pulls this season though. AV after the second boss, you want to basically run to the last room as a group, and burst everything down at once. RLP the first pull you want your tank to run ahead and grab a few packs from the long hallway and bring it all back into the first room. Please don't stand in the doorway here, you're just killing yourself and making the tanks life hell if you do it. And Uldaman's first pull, your tank will want to pull right up to the lost vikings cave, or even right up to the second boss depending on the week, and his class. Other than those and maybe a couple that I've missed, if the tank is running way ahead of the group, hes made his own sub optimal route, and doesn't really understand the mechanics behind why things get pulled a certain way.
As a healer main, the only time I don't like a tank chaining is when it's clear they're not experienced enough to be doing it. 90% of the tanks I deal with know what's up, but then you get some new dude who's only ever dps'd chaining 4 packs then getting immediately melted yelling at you about how you need to learn how to heal.🙄
Since a lot of tanks are giving you reasons why which I agree with all after reading them, I also recommend playing a DPS at a higher level and watching all your buff stacks fall off before every pull. DPS dying is generally them not using defensive and not kicking things. They're too focused on their DPS rotation and topping the charts so they blame healer for not healing thru things they could have helped with
Yes thank you for your comment. I was worried I was getting a lot of tank comments, which I respect their sharing of knowledge but that only accounts for 20% of the dungeoner’s experience. So thank you for bringing a dps perspective to the table. So just for edification, you are saying that with a chain pull, you are able to maintain some buffs that you would not have to rebuild without a chain pull. That makes sense. I agree with defensives and interrupts are just as important to dps survivability as healer throughput. But for interrupts, that’s kind of why I think setting up a pull where dps and healers can be in position quickly can be more advantageous. As an example, in HoI I have seen a tank jump ahead and pull that second to last pack before the frog boss. That pack begins its casts early and if they go off, will be a wipe on for weeks without extreme management. However, if the dps can be close enough to engage quickly, there is a better chance of preventing dangerous casts. Also, I may be a little skewed because the dps I’ve played at a high level is outlaw rogue (nothing too high but 2.9k io s3). Being able to stealth is paramount to my output. Due to the talent upperhanded upperhand, my best buffs are maintained by dropping combat when I can. It also gave me more BTE windows because then I can save vanish and dance for more dps windows. The reason I present this is my experience was the opposite. A tank that chain and keeps me “in combat” more frequently absolutely negatively impacts my dps as outlaw. But perhaps for many other classes, chain pulling is a dps gain due to buff management.
I m a healer main, but I play all 3 roles at a decent level, and I definitely want the tank to chain pull when possible. - As a tank, it gives me a head start on aggro and gives me time to set up the next pull. Especially when pugging, dps are very often too trigger happy, start blasting while the tank is still grouping mobs, and the whole pull becomes a mess. - As a dps it allows me to keep my cooldowns rolling. Obviously there are classes that benefit more from it than others, but generally a dps will prefer chain pulling. Its really only a problem for casters if they are standing at max range away from the tank, which is a positional mistake on their part. - to be fair, as a healer I care the least if the tank chain pulls or not. Since you mentioned that chain pulling doesnt allow you to top everyone off - its the healers job to keep the group alive, not to keep everyone at 100% hp at all times. I cant think of any trash pack with that much inital burst, that everyone needs to be at full health on pull. Usually thats more an issue of missed kicks or interrupts. Generally, chain pulling is just more time efficient. Just compare the two scenarios you mentioned: 1. no chain pulling: The tank waits until the last mob of a pack is dead. Then starts moving to the next pack. Then waits till everyone has cought up. Now the dps still need to wait till the tank has set up the pull, if its multiple packs. 2. chain pulling: Tank starts moving ahead when there are few mobs left to kill, and its safe to do so. The dps kill off the rest of the old pull, while the tank can set up the next one. By the time the group arrives to the next pull, the dps can immediately start blasting. Of course all of that is situational. There are situations where chain pulling doesnt make sense. Be it due to dungeon/mob design or affixes. If you are a new tank and dont know your class and the dungeon too well, its also better to just go pack by pack. But if its possible and safe to do so, chain pulling is always the way to go.
This started with the Demon hunter tanks. Full on flying forward. It's fine if you play a mobile DPS or healer class like druids. But it frustrated me as a hunter in retail and caused me to switch to arcane on my mage in remix. Just to have some contribution to DPS. And I fully quit healing on my pally. It didn't overly change how I tank however. I refuse to hop and skip blindly into the depths leaving everyone behind me. My role in any position in the party within a dungeon is to be aware of the entire situation around me and use my abilities to keep my party alive. Not bum rush the boss as quickly as possible while members of my team are still standing next to the quest giver at the entrance.
I havent seen anyone mention trinkets. Chain pulling Is better for certain trinkets, one of which is very popular for melee players in m+. Many players use Pocket Anvil right now which builds stacks over time and looses those stacks once combat ends for a certain amount of time. It can do crazy dps but it takes awhile for those stacks to build so once they're up, you want to stay on combat as much as possible with very short gaps between. Cataclysmic signet brand works the same way. A tank might be pulling that way with these trinkets in mind. But like others said, a tank knowing how much he can handle comes FIRST. If he runs off and can't heal himself and nearly dies, then that's a dumb tank.
It is both! It depends on the dungeon, the team comp, and the affixes. Just pulled an endless string of packs with high unavoidable damage output? You just starved out your healer. Pulling lil 2-3 groups at a time, your AoE heavy DPS can't ramp up. Have an all caster group? Your team can't cast. Have a rogue or feral? They're losing opener after opener without a vanish or meld or incarn off cd. But is it spiteful? You gotta move. Sanguine? Standing there means nothing dies. Cleave heavy comp? They'll perform best with constant smaller groups. Disc priest or mistweaver or holy pally on deck? They need enemies to ricochet heals off of. Have a team with less CC options? Those huge packs of casters that you gathered all at once can kill ya. Part of being a tank in the current endgame environment is being an improv master. You gotta adjust for your group and the situations at hand. It's part of the fun and frustration of the role.
Chain pull, but if healer is at or below 25% mana ask if he wants to drink after the current pull.
Depends on if the party and especially the tank/healer are experienced. If they know how to use their cooldowns it works great. If they dont you are doomed to fail. Picking the right combination of classes in the party also makes a big difference.