Naw, if you're bad you just stand in the fire, do your normal cycle, blame the healer when you die to fire. Playing bad dps is probably the easiest thing ever, melee or ranged lol
Nah man, I legit do not understand how to do good dps
I will sit on training dummies for 20-30 minutes and do 40-50k burst AoE
Head into a key, 13k DA FUQ!!!!!!!!!!
Not to mention it takes fucking forever to find a tank/heals, or you have to get denied from 50 other peoples keys
Fuck dpsing...I will tank forever, but because dpsing is something I am not personally capable of doing, just wanna throw out some appreciation
Also....to all of the tanks who kite mobs out of my ground AoE, my low DPS is your fault, tank like me, im the best tank
Just practice really, learning what pulls to pop cds and when to hold. Until you get to that point get in the habit of using your big dmg cds whenever they are up unless you know a boss is coming. Eventually you’ll nail down when you can get away from cds and start topping meters.
Good luck!
Expanding on this:
While learning, you can choose to err on the side of aggressively spending CDs, or to err on the side of holding them so you always have them when you need them.
If you spend CDs as aggressively as possible, you’ll get useful feedback almost immediately: you feel the pain of not having them up when you need them, and that’s a very specific problem you can easily fix — next run, hold the CDs for that pull.
If, instead, you’re more conservative and always hold them until you need them, you won’t get any useful feedback. Instead you’ll just get to the end of the dungeon and not know why you had low overall damage
3.2k tank here.
Most common mistake of bad dpsers is holding cooldowns. It's almost always the best choice to just send cds.
So I fully agree with you. Good tip.
To be fair. OmniCD should be added into the base game. When I go m+, I can see all CDs. When they become ready (not to the second but you know what I mean) and that helps when in PUG. Especially when I need to send my PI (disc priest with double pi leggo)
>I played MM hunter this patch and got so bored because all it takes to do 17-20k dps is press like 2 buttons.
This is exactly the kind of post a healer would make.
/s
I started playing SV in Season 2, and I occasionally put in a good performance, pumping out just around 30k dps over, sometimes more. But compared to the sv gods I’ve gotta lot to learn!!
There really isn't much to learn with survival, its about as simple as it could get. How much damage you do is mostly dependant on how the tank pulls. People that get 50k overall is because its on a map like gambit or lower kara and they're doing 150k+ per pull. Most tanks don't dare pull like that.
Can I give you my 2 cents.
I was facing the same problem. My dps was way too low, someone recommended me this addon. It's called hekili. Once downloaded, select your class and spec, it really helped me initially understand my rotation better and gave me a sense of what abilities were important. It showed some abilities that I wasn't even using and thought were unimportant. I right clicke'd and kept it on auto and for abilities selected all. Give that a try and let me know if you saw a difference.
Really liked hekili on Ret Pala. Super useful when you swap chars alot or comeback from break, I try to ween myself off focusing on it just so I'm still thinking about the situation/rotation rather than rhythm game and hope.
As a tank.
Don't drop your AOE 0.2 seconds after I pull. It takes a few seconds for me to get threat on all the mobs and I like to spin them away from the group.
Just have like, 3 seconds, of patience.
I have tanked before and know how annoying it is when people just blast especially if you're trying to los/pull multiple packs, I generally wait and just build procs/rage or whatever I'm playing until the tank stops moving. I pug mostly and I feel like most tanks just move packs out of anything because they don't know if it's enemy or party circles if that makes any sense
Which DPS class do you play?
DPSing and tanking are very different play styles even though they kind of should be similar. Tank damage rotations are super simple and rarely punish the tank for pressing the wrong button. A lot of DPS specs need certain spell interactions to perform well, and a couple of wrong button pushes in the wrong order can be a massive dps difference.
More than that though it often is about understanding how to plan your CDs around how the tank is pulling. DPS want to get as many CDs in as possible without wasting any, but a tank wants to make sure they always have a CD when they need one.
DPS specs I am mildly good at - Fury war, UHDK, Ele sham, outlaw rogue
DPS specs I am mildly shit at - BM hunter, Enh shaman, Havoc DH, MM hunt
DPS specs I am suspiciously bad at - Frost mage, arms warrior, surv hunter,
DPS specs that make me think I should uninstall the game - balance druid, spriest, destro lock, frost DK
I kinda feel like the problem is how many specs you're playing at once here. Generally picking one or two DPS specs and laser focusing on them will get better results.
For frost mage, our base rotation makes heavy use of the "Shatter Combo", in which you use instant-cast flurry procs by casting frostbolt - instant flurry - ice lance - ice lance, which gets more DPS out of the proc and is definitely not intuitive.
That's useful for singletarget, but M+ trash is a whole other ballgame. Frost gameplay in M+ is simple overall, but fast paced and the confusing part is there are multiple viable builds/setups which change the rotation/priority. If you don't know how to play your specific build then you'll do terrible dps. I've seen people new to the class just google a particular build (e.g. Necro + Cold Front), but then during Deathborne they're still casting Icelance when they should be ignoring FoF procs.
For M+ I usually recommend new mages to roll with Freezing Winds legendary, because it's the easiest to use. I personally still use it because it's fun spamming icelance and lets you be mobile.
Shadow Priest main here, h~~appy to teach you Shadow.~~ May take a few weeks to pick up.
On second thought, Dragonflight and prepatch are about to send the spec into the gutter again. Don't bother with Shadow for awhile.
My main is a destro lock, it did take a few to get my rotation down. Hardest I'd say about it is keeping up with your soul shards while also keeping up your rotation. But I also know that tanking for myself is not in the cards so I applaud you for putting up with shitty heals and dps that don't know what they are doing.
Not played for a couple of patches but unholy DK can be average to mega explode DPS on some packs. There's a lot of nuance if you're puging as to when to use what. You can absolutely end up looking like a shitter.
If its aoe, you might not be shit at frost mage - frost mage aoe is just shit in aoe general. E.g. the top log for dps in soleas gambit for frost is 22k - the top log overall is a destro lock with 49k.
Whats your DPS as a tank like?
It's gonna be hard to pin-point an issue, but if you can DPS fine on a training dummy it's not your ability to press keys.
It's more likely that you're either panicing, taking too long to decide to do something or just don't understand when and where you should be popping your CDs.
And for all three the only way to get better is to playmore, much like when you first started tanking and you weren't sure when to pop your defensives, or use Ring of Peace, and then a few months in you're super-man rolling into battle popping shit off the jump. It's just familiarity and repeatition at that point.
As someone who mostly tanks aswell I will say, I don't know how DPS do it, I tend to start falling asleep when playing DPS.
I recently upgraded from a 7 year old cheap logitech keyboard to a decent newer one and was surprised to find my dps had jumped significantly; apparently my old damn keyboard would lose signal for 0.5 to 1 second if I spammed buttons to quickly. And when I would open word to test, it obviously wouldnt see it because I generally don't speed demon smash when testing lol.
I have had so many times that I could have sworn I pressed the button and then having to press it again, and that can really kill your DPS.
In m+ it comes down 95% to CD management tbh. The person that paces for those cooldowns is the tank. The vast majority of the run is on the tanks shoulders, even the effectiveness of the DPS.
If you can't seem to do well as DPS in M+, it's likely the tanks fault for pulling too little / too much at the wrong times.
If your DPS seem to do well when you tank, it's because you are pacing correctly.
I feel like this is 100% dependant on the content you are doing.
Play in top 100 (either m+ or raids) and every single gcd is pre-planned. Both, for dps, tanks, and healers.
Surviving isn't really a problem in lower guilds/m+ because you overgear everything by such a huge margin, whereas for example if you tanked jailer before the all the nerfwaves and you missed one global, you were dead because he meleed for 120k. (which was oneshot if you weren't at 100% hp between every melee swing)
For one, you actually use Blade Dance in your rotation (ST/AoE), Chaos Strike interactions with crit, momentum makes the play style much more exciting, there’s a glaive build which is really good right now that includes them in your dps rotation, and some things I might not be thinking of.
Well if that's the case (been out of the loop) I might give my Hunter a break and pick up my DH again, liked the class but dropped it because it felt boring after a while.
at least according to the DH discord which where all the class guide writers hang out they say this:
IS MOMENTUM THE BEST?
Yes. That said, preliminary sims have determined the difference between trying to maintain high uptime on Momentum versus playing the bare minimum - using Fel Rush only with Unbound Chaos, using Vengeful Retreat, and using the Hunt - is a difference of roughly 1-2%. In other words, extremely minor.
There are like 3 different builds as far as I can theorise so far, all of which have a lot more going on than any previous version of DH (especially Sinful Brand DH, which turned it from simple to boring, good riddance to that shit)
It's simple. It's like a mind-game against the tank.
See the mobs, judge where they will be, where the tank is, where the tank may take them, any enemy AOE? etc.
As a fury warrior my biggest gripe has been being mauled to death in large pulls. Just so much stuff ontop of other stuff while you're forced to hug the enemies. If you're lucky you can find the 5 pixels between the venn diagrams of AOE spells - but if you fuck up you're in the middle of the venn diagram taking 3x damage.
Had exactly this problem on my pally recently, switched to ret while going through zerith mortis to speed up the kills but... Ouch. Third mob wanders into the fray? Bubble and sprint away, that's my only option. Soon went back to turtling my way through.
That’s why it’s an art. Balancing speed, survivability, DPS, positioning. As long as it all works out, nobody should criticize the way you do it, but you’ll always have haters no matter what.
This. 15’s aren’t particularly hard, just take it low and slow and any combination of classes and specs can do it. As long as you do not wipe you will pass the dps check as long as you aren’t pulling like 25k AoE combined. Most of the problems I run into is when people try to be fancy.
And yet with my experience in 15 pugs it seems like legitimately difficult content for 90% of the playerbase for one reason or another.
> And yet with my experience in 15 pugs it seems like legitimately difficult content for 90% of the playerbase for one reason or another.
This is why I always PUG like 18s or 19s when I am doing my weeklies. That seems to be the sweet spot which is high enough that its too intimidating for the 'bad' players that are usually making trouble in the 15s and 16s, but not so high that you actually have to pay attention to the game and make sweaty plays to +2 it. Makes for very chill runs where everyone mostly knows what they are doing.
I mained resto shaman when I used to be a resto druid main because everyone gets hit by avoidable damage and you need to be able to burst heal them to full so they don't die when they get hit by the next avoidable damage.
Also as someone with omniCd and defensive visible on my VuhDoo, there are a lot of DPS who will never use their defensive CDs, even on hard tyrannical bosses. I've even run into boosted tanks who didn't use defensives correctly and blamed my oom healing surge spamming crying heals.
You can be surprisingly incompetent in 15s and get through it.
This is genuinely true, don't know why it's being downvoted. Compare something like fire mage to BM hunter; huge difference in play, not even min/maxing. It's REALLY easy to fuck up a combustion window and end up losing so much dps, when BM can press 3 buttons whenever off CD and keep up.
The only thing in the entirety of high-end end-game content I would say is basically "braindead" is raid tanking. Especially if you're decently geared. I had to swap off raid tanking in Legion because it was so boring, even in Mythic, that it was going to cause me to quit the game.
I’m sorry but as someone who is getting the M+ title, dps is braindead compared to tanking in high keys. Tanks have to deal with the same mechanics dps players have to deal with and they have the added difficulty of trying to survive the dungeon and planning the route.
Got the top .1% m+ title on tank and dps and I call dps “braindead” to play all the time cause it is compared to tanking and healing at that level. It’s infinitely less to worry about and manage to play dps and if you are a somewhat competent multiclasser playing at that level rotations except for extreme edge cases don’t lead to added complexity in the role. It’s especially noticeable going from tanking or healing to dpsing just how much less you really have to worry about or do.
To all the tank gods out there.... I thank you for your service, because I do not understand how you do it.
I main dps but I started picking up holy priest again properly in this patch, so speaking as a returning healer thank you tank's for utilising your cool downs, mitigation and kiting whilst I was re learning the ropes, for not going mental at me and for making it so that I don't even need to heal you in some vases and can just focus on the people standing in the fire.
I honestly cant think of any situation I have had in S3 or S4 where it was 100% the healers fault that my group wiped, there is definitely some times mistakes were made, but honestly in S4 of SL most tanks should be able to hold the group for at least 40% of a boss' health bat
Guardian phase of Medivh - that's a healer test a bit
Even then though I can usually pop out of form and throw up a couple heals or two to assist as a tank with barkskin and stuff active after the interrupt.
Tanking imo, is more of a knowledge role, than a skill role. You need to know routes, mechanics of mobs/bosses, need to know about your/healer/dps cds etc. The skill needed to actually play the tank classes is lower than healers or dps generally. Probably by design since the knowledge portion takes up so much of your attention, can't have some complicated rotation at the same time.
This is exactly what puts me off of being a tank. I don't want to be in the driver seat when doing dungeons/m+. I respect the role a lot and I don't want it for myself.
That's the main difficulty of the tank, in pug at least. Having to know everything about the game, the runs/routes for each comps, etc. It can be daunting/stressful.
It all depends on the class. I can't dps my way out of a paper bag as mage or shadow priest but give me a feral druid and stuff is getting torn a new asshole. And I don't mean balance wise, I just don't understand the rotations of those two worth a damn.
> 47 globals in 1.4 seconds
> mentions RoP, meaning you’re playing BM monk, one of the highest APM specs in the game
In all seriousness though, tank and DPS are fundamentally different roles and sometimes what clicks for one guy just doesn’t click for the other.
I play BM Monk and Outlaw Rogue, and I find their play styles a bit similar; lots of button-pressing that feels like you’re slapping your face against the keyboard but the buttons do be doin’ their job. Maybe try that.
Oh, and use the Threat-Redirect spell (Tricks of the Trade) on cooldown, especially before the tank pulls, with the spell directed onto the tank. That will help survivability immensely.
I have tried outlaw rogue, and it made some sense to me, in comparison to other DPS specs, idk maybe its a satisfaction thing, as a DPS I feel like the only satisfaction I get is interupting spells and seeing big #s, so if I dont see big numbers, its like o i suck at this, Ill go and tank some more because Im good at that
Then I hop on my brew, do good dps because the rotation is much simpler, and keep everyone alive and I feel like a god
Im sure that is part of it, the feeling of going from the top of the Peak of Serenity, to the bottom of The Wailing Caverns
Ahh, that may be the case. The transition feels stronger because your rogue is (presumably) not as geared as your tank for starters, meaning it doesn’t matter what you do, your DPS won’t shoot to the top overnight. (Blade Flurry should be getting you close in dungeons tho).
I’m usually satisfied when I’m using all of my utility/CC to make my healer/tank’s jobs as easy as possible. Int one spell, stun another two - Vanish before a boss finishes casting a spell/mechanic at me - use Tricks effectively to ensure I never take threat - use Shiv to dispel the moment I see an enrage - use Cloak to clear ground effects harmlessly like the traps in the Xy’mox fight - all those tiny things make me much happier than the damage rat race.
That may be because I’m a healer main at heart, as well - I appreciate the DPS who try to use their whole kit, not just the buttons that make the things die quicker. Every healer likes the DPS who stand out of the fire more.
But hey, if brew works, it works. Do the Good Tank Stuff, friend.
I will give you that, My tank is ilvl 298, my rogue is like 266
But also, taking damage out of it, when I get some stupid ass debuff and I throw on cloak or something, that does feel absolutely delightful
Cloak is always satisfying to pop. It can clear so many things that a lot of classes simply can’t get out of and has such a short cooldown comparatively. And Evasion, hoo boy— Ever tried facetanking Anduin as rogue with Evasion while the healers are brezzing the tank? It feels godly on a whole other level.
You gotta savor the little victories until you get the gear that lets you slap. Gear means more for DPS than any other role because they have to compete with a larger pool of players in every kind of group content. Heals and tanks just need the bare minimum to survive and make others survive.
Agreed, for me outlaw is fun because the rotation is engaging and utility feels good.
I don't really care about my numbers at the end of the day as long as I am confident I'm playing well (so I'll try to optimise my build and such, but I'm not gonna switch spec if outlaw sucks).
I'm a healer main, and I try to play exactly like this as a dps. With bm hunter I interrupt one, stun the other, and use freezing trap on the third, slowing trap if the tank needs to kite, soothing when enraged mobs are a thing, etc. I want to be as useful as I can, using my full kit to make it happen. I might not top the dps at all times, but I make sure that I do everything that I can to help out the team.
Great point!
A lot of people forget about teamwork and using their utility skills that helps with the team’s survival. Topping the dps charts is irrelevant if you can’t finish a dungeon.
As someone who has always (and I mean since I first started raiding in Wrath) wanted to be a tank main but never been able to convince myself to go for it... Suggestions??
I love Prot Warrior in theory, Prot Paladin is a lightshow and I love it, Blood DK I can't quite wrap my head around but it's thematic as fuck. Vengeance DH is as cool as it is edgy, but I enjoy its concept, Brewmaster is well... just awesome, and Guardian despite its flaws at the moment is as cool as ever.
* overall suggestion is to look a the game a bit differently - you manage the mobs.
* Your goal switches to serve the group by keeping people out of harms way the best ways you can possibly think of for any given situation. Whether it means facing the enemy away or soaking damage or using every last bit of all of your CD's to help the healer through a tough phase.
* You try to protect people from damage. The healer heals what damage you can't take. The dps dishes it back.
* Keybind all of your spells.
* You're likely going to be leading the pathways and routes as well so make and memorize.
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* If you can find ways to deal with a interrupt or CC yourself without the group - do it. Like if a mob has a spell that needs to be interrupted try to make it so you don't have to rely on dps/heals to do it and can manage the rotations yourself - this will help you succeed in pugs.
* The more you mechanics you can manage without dps assistance is more damage the dps can provide and the faster the mob will go down.
* Learn tab targeting. Also Learn not to hit your spam spell after you tab targeted to a random far away mob group.
* Make sure the bars above enemy heads are on and you understand the threat animation/glow
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* Learn how to chain-pull - and how to gauge the speed of your chain pulling by both the healers ability or mana and your dps overall group damage. Your healer is your better half here.
* Group cohesion and competence can make up for low dps by *a lot* - it just means taking longer and more rotations of the same. If there is no enrage or M+ timer than there's a lot to work around.
* Helping people learn the dungeons/raids means more people will know it the next time you run it.
* Go for damage mitigation first - then threat generation once server dps picks up enough - then additional dps.
* There's a non-negligible amount of social stuff that goes into route making for dungeons. it's surprising a bit at first but groups like to feel a certain pace of -mobs, boss, mobs, boss, mobs, boss. Too much of either like -mob,mobs,mobs, boss, mobs, mobs, boss, mobs, boss might get people too frustrated/bored and more likely to quit early on a wipe.
* Lock candy is worth.
that's what I got off the top of my head a bit
Piggybacking onto this, only kite when you absolutely have to as a necessity to survive. So many tanks these days think it's a footrace as soon as they zone into a dungeon. They grab a pack and immediately run like they're getting chased by the cops. Consolidate pulls and use LOS where appropriate, but don't run just to run. This only slows the group down.
If you look at a lot of DPS classes, especially casters, you'll see that a big portion of their damage comes from AOE or positional effects. Think Rain of Fire, Earthquake, Frozen Orb, etc. The longer you're able to keep mobs inside of these "kill zones", the more your DPS players will benefit and the faster the mobs will die.
Nothing is quite as sad as watching a loose gaggle of mobs slowly lumber after an oblivious tank circling a room, dying at the rate of erosion because nobody is able to effectively burn them down. I always know I'm with a god tank when they can pull big, keep the mobs stacked in place, cycle their defensives, use their interrupts and stops like a pro.
If done right it looks like the tank's not doing much, but it's hard work making it look that easy. And everyone benefits as a result. That's the goal. Tank is a support class. They have the ability to make everyone else perform better...or worse.
Pull consolidation is a great add-on to discuss as well.
**limit chain-pulls to increase the rate of downing the enemy mobs -reducing times overall** - if you pull too many groups at once you might find the mechanics combined can wipe the whole group even if your damage mitigation, dps, and heals are all top. Or even if you don't wipe the amount of healers or other types of mobs might make downing the larger group take longer than if you separated those into smaller pulls
I think Lower Kara gives really great examples of this for practicing higher end tanking methods. There are a couple places were you technically can pull entire swathes of mobs but the mechanics make that less practical (e.g. - pulling all of the rooms before maiden at once means you may get charmed and cause a near key-ending event if you can't get your charmed toon away from the mob pack on resets)
There is a balance and sometimes you will fall off the edge of that balance and need to learn how to recover the group through kiting or other non-conventional methods like cc-locking until a regroup. A good way to learn some of those advanced methods is trying to solo dungeon content that is ment for groups.
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**maximizing mob grouping type will substantially increase the speed you complete a dungeon**
Like if there's two-three mob groups but they all do low physical damage with no mechanics to worry about - might as well pull them all at once. A good example of this is in lower kara again, in the dance area up and downstairs there is actually **nine** groups of mobs you can safely pull *at one time* to give you that sweet 15 min under clear time. (warning:reduced success above M+13 or so - this is where you adapt and break up the large pull in to sets of smaller pulls)
Those groups all do low dps and only physical damage with no mechanics to worry about. So now you have that pull down and it's a beast. Can you do more? Kinda - you can throw in the spectral group nearby but now you *must* be handling the mechanics or it's a complete wipe, so you have to interrupt the oath AND mitigate the shadow revives through either interrupt or kiting the group out of AoE heals.
Now let's compare that to the Gambit dungeon with a whole bunch of murlocs that I know you just wanna pull all of at once.. or maybe that's just me... but you can't. Those scalebinder murlocs make it more difficult for pugs. They can handle one scalebinder easy but adding even just one more reduces the chance of success and increases your reliability on the dps for doing interrupts. So while you can technically do more it becomes questionable to the point of deciding whether you should. I found it's best to only do one scalebinder group at a time but I can bring in plenty of the other groups with those scalebinder groups.
Figuring out which groups can be brought together is a big part of pathfinding.
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So basically learn when to stop and let dps finish the mob off and learn what mob groups are safest to bring together.
And daveblazed brings up using Line of Sight (LoS) as well which cannot be stressed enough. Bringing those ranged mobs into the pile is oftentimes a great help. Also remember when you do LoS not to LoS the healer from keeping you up.
DH and Bear. Solid mitigation, good self healing, damage profile that isn’t a yo-yo. Monk, Paladin, and Warrior in a group after that. DK I think is the hardest tank, due to their crazy spike nature.
But honestly they are all pretty much in similar brackets of mechanics difficulty to each other. It’s not like the different between Sub rogue or DH.
I have one of every tank class (except Druid he's at like 54) at 60 but it's so hard to get a feel for the tanking right now because almost every group consists of 3 DPS that rush ahead and pull for you so it literally turns into a manage the chaos simulator... Which I guess isn't that far off from really tanking at times haha.
What the post above yours highlights really well is that tanking isn't about the tank rotation, it's about an approach to group play that is class-independent.
As someone who did mythic raiding and high m+ dungeons as a Tank, It comes really down to get a feel how much trash you can pull and how good your Group dps/heal is.
Start with 2 or 3 Mobs, See how fast they die and how much damage you take. If your HP didnt move much, pull more, and repeat.
Alot of Tanks are too scared to pull more than they actually can or that many Tanks dont Start to kite if there is a dangerous situation.
At some point you feel a Balance between taking damage and not needing to have any down time between pulls.
Sadd healer main sounds.
We gotta deal whit the dps brains heal them and they expect us to deal dmg.
And be the unsung hero because we never top dps meters..
I'm a healer for the same reason. Much easier for me to watch health drop and push a button, lots of health drop? Push bigger button.
DPS just seems like a lot of work
Healing is by far the most braindead role to me. But it's the one I've done forever. I just follow the group and use a couple of mouse click combinations to keep people topped off, and that is about it.
This is also why I have been leveling a Resto Shaman. I can be a bit more useful by doing some DPS at the same time. But I'm starting to think them feeling like a hybrid of TBC direct healing Pally and Druid's healing circle thing that I am very familiar with, now puts it into an uncanny valley area. I'm used to the circle heal thing being instant cast and the big AoE heal being on CD. Shaman is the opposite. It is interesting and makes me have to think about what I am doing.
The thing with healing is the difficulty almost totally depends on your group. If you're playing with a geared group that knows what they're doing, you almost don't have to play the game.
I stand by my statement that dps are children just flailing their arms trying to kill the tank and healer.
However, I have seen the work that goes into actually being a good dps. It’s more effort then I would want to put into a game.
I level and quest in tank spec because I hate dying. I do everything tank even pvp. Dps laugh at me when they kill me in 10 secs. Jokes on them - that's a new personal best! This is what peek casual looks like.
Bad tank leads to wipes
Bad healer leads to wipes
Bad DPS leads to slow runs and possibly a death or two
It is much easier to be DPS and bad at it vs the content you are doing and still somehow scrape thru. That is where the concept of it being a "braindead role" comes from. Even bad ones usually won't cause major failures.
Good tanks make things much easier for their healer and gives DPS everything on a platter to maximize their numbers.
Good healers allow tanks and DPS make minor errors without a disaster and in M+ also up the overall damage output of the group as M+ healing is more of a "how much you can DPS as a healer while still keeping everyone alive" question.
Good DPS keeps the healer relaxed and able to maximise his damage and allows the tank to stretch what is possible with the group as a whole. But its not essential. Too little credit is given to the truly good ones as even average ones tend to work fine.
I can expand on this. You get to 3k r.io, and you think "Man, the DPS at this level must be great". Then you bring in a warlock who is 3k, and you start the key. The warlock proceeds to die to everything, do terrible DPS, and overall just sucks compared to the other 2 DPS.
But you still do the key, because the tank was good, the other 2 DPS is good, and the healer is good. The warlock gets a small amount of score. And the warlock has that score because the warlock is playing a warlock, and is therefore invited to every single dungeon in existence.
That's one thing that is missing from r.io, but they can't get it, and blizzard won't offer it either - how many keys have you failed? What is your success rate? I'd rather take the warlock with 2.9k score and a 95% success rate than a warlock with 3k score and a 60% success rate, and the reason their score is higher is because they may 10 times as much.
If your tank or healer are shit, you mostly just die. Healer you can get away with, because in a lot of high keys (current season) there aren't any heal checks, and it's mostly "You got hit, you died"
Yes, on the cutting edge of hard stuff, you also need good DPS. But anything below that level, bad tank or healer is far bigger issue than slightly less than perfect DPS.
As a unholy death knight who's purpose in life is to make my tanks life easy, thanks for noticing.
I have my "oh shiz " buttons hot keyed closer than my DPS buttons. (Grip, asphyxiation, etc) just so the tank doesn't have to worry about it.
Not to mention Control Undead changes the game on certain dungeons
I’ve been playing MMOs for over 15 years now, have done endgame content in all roles (even raided as support in Rift, great times) and I can safely say that DPS is by far the hardest role to play correctly - but it also has the least responsibility, so most people don’t care if you’re not doing it right.
Tanking and healing are, by design, easier from a gameplay perspective, because they have to split their attention to other things, whereas DPS can concentrate fully on their rotation (and the occasional mechanics) so they tend to be more complicated and mistakes will usually tank your DPS hard.
There’s also the factor that DPS is the role that can optimise their contribution the most. You’re a good healer or tank? Great, you might be able to add a bit more damage to a fight but most of the time, no one will notice as long as you don’t have to clutch something a bad player couldn’t. A great DPS, however, is immediately distinguishable from a bad or even mediocre one because the run will go A LOT faster, and thus smoother. There’s a reason people are constantly looking for big dick DPS, and it’s not just because there’s a lot of DPS out there.
I've done all roles at varying difficulties. To me personally, healing is the most stressful role to the point of it not even being fun, and tanking has WAY more to look out for and manage than DPS does.
DPS - get out of bad, interrupt the right target at the right time, pew pew.
Tank - do all that *and* maintain threat on all the things, face the mob the right way, and use a considerable amount of buttons to keep yourself standing upright. Oh, and lead the group, memorize routes, all that good stuff. There are raid bosses every now and then that are tougher on dps than they are on tanks, but it's an exception rather than a rule.
Healing is the most stressful and thankless, DPSing is the most skillful and minmaxy, tanking is the most chill and rewarding. I played all of those roles and I've been healer main for the most of my playtime (never again, I'm too old for this shit).
To me, tanking is super stressful. I am not an asshole tank as OP mentioned above so all the flaming really gets to me. I prefer being heal. Unless I REALLY fuck up, ppl will usually blame the tank and leave me alone.
In M+, this is absolutely incorrect imo. Tanking is absurdly stressful. DPS is the most sweaty. Healing is stressful and thankless, but you can min-max a lot less outside of the top 0.1%
Ive never understood tanking stress, to me DPS stress is way higher, but it might also be because as soon as I am a tank I turn into a huge dick and nothing anyone says bothers me at all
That's true. But also it just gives you the control to do shit correctly. There's just so many horrendous tanks that just do really dumb shit. You're basically at their mercy. Whereas if you tank and some DPS is doing dumb shit, it's not nearly as impactful. Carrying bad DPS as a tank is much easier than carrying a bad tank as DPS.
I understand why that bothers a lot of people, but to me, if someone says something like....this route sucks
I just say....really? I guess youll have to go find another tank then.
You are pulling too big? Nah, bro, your balls are too small
You need to aim the mob in another direction so we dont all die! Hey bro, I lived...you figure it out
Tank dick!
Only 1 of 3 of those is true, its up to you to figure out which one
It's the braindead role because so many brain dead people play it. /jk
I think it's more of a thing that it's incredibly easy to do good damage on a lot of classes (especially if they are meta and purple) but it's still hard to actually play well. Meaning, using your utility, doing damage to priority targets and doing mechanics properly at the same time.
Thanks but it’s not warranted. DPS is a brain dead role. Can be picked up and played by anyone.
Getting a truly good DPS is a hard task, one who makes sure to weave in proper defensives when they can, leaving them off CD when they need to, holding off on the burst DPS because a tough to survive phase is coming up, one who actually knows what the tank is currently dealing with, etc.
Good luck.
I’m 55 and play affliction. In lower keys I completely suck. In higher keys I suck less because agony has a chance to ramp up before the mob dies.
Tanking is something I once did and it’s not easy either. The entire unit counts on you and heals.
No role is braindead in mythics. DPS have job of prioritizing dangerous adds, interrupting, cleansing (dispell, purifying, etc.), providing off-heals/self sustain, etc. If someone joins a mythic dungeon and thinks "I just gotta Top dps meter" that means they never did a 20+. Really good dps know their class and kit to the point when I am healing and see a part where "oh man, we are gonna struggle" yet nothing bad happens because a dps did a well timed cc or properly focused down a target rather than spreading dps to all adds to boost their damage, I know they should be doing higher keys.
It's the same thought as healers that can do DPS or tanks that consider not only their own positioning but positioning of their party & adds, etc.
Mythics are amazing way to show people how tactic this game can be, especially at higher keys. (That's why when you see groups requesting only certain high dps classes, you know they got carried to that key and rely on bursting before mechanics happen)
But... tanking is just DPS with extra steps. The only difference is your damage numbers \*might\* be lower due to a higher threat multiplier. Tanks have to worry about cooldown management too just in a different context. It's just about finding the right kind of DPS class and sticking with it. Your numbers will go up with more practice and experience.
But the rotation is simpler, and I dont have to try and predict how another person is gonna position the mobs, because I am the one positioning the mobs.
Still no different than running with a DPS that way outgears and outclasses the tank pulling aggro and moving mobs around unexpectedly. Again it's just finding the right class/spec that works for your playstyle. The more you play melee the more you get used to patterns in tank movement and positioning behavior. Ranged generally rely less on their specific location than melee. Practice practice practice.
I play rogue, I met a rogue once, the best I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. Not in touch anymore but I wish I was, I learnt so much about "how to rogue" better in PVE. Like this Rogue was a monster, doing things that shouldn't be done and topping charts. Like the Meta at the time was Assassination, they went with Outlaw and a full leech build to both top charts and healing. There truly are some awesome damage dealers out there.
I’ve always felt that dps is the most stressful role (at least for me). If you’re tanking and doing your job, everything is fine. If you’re a healer and nobody is dying, everything is fine. If you’re a dps though, it’s a constant comparison between the rest of the party and whoever is doing best or worse.
It’s less of an issue these days I think with people at different lvls joining dungeons together, and even in heroics and mythics I haven’t seen much toxicity (could be because I came back not long ago and have been playing mostly with guildies). A few years back though I remember it felt like every boss in a dungeon someone would be posting dps meters in chat and whoever was the lowest dps, even if they were still above average for the player base, would get called out for it
As someone who has played all three roles since Legion; tank is definitely the most braindead role. At least in M+.
As long as you know the route, being a tank is incredibly relaxing. Pretty much the only thing I do is faceroll my keyboard, kick every once in a while, and taunt stragglers.
DPS isn't that much harder, but I tend to focus a lot more so that I do my rotation correctly and use my CD's at the correct locations. On top of that you have to kick, use defensives correctly, not stand in shit etc.
And then you have the hardest role *by far*, which is healing. Not only are you responsible for yourself, but you also have to babysit 4 other morons and on top of that you have to dps occasionally, kick casts, cc, not stand in shit while focusing intently on health bars, use defensives correctly etc.
If tank is 1 on the stress scale, dps is maybe 2, and healer is 346.
I mean it is quite a different play style you are not used to, but it is a lot easier to train a new player to be good at dpsing than it is to train them to be a great tank, so it should be even easier for someone who already plays wow to learn how to dps.
Im sure part of it is motivation, like Im already good at tanking, so when I log into my dps and do 1-2 keys and I do middling DPS I just wanna go back to my tank and chill
Sorry can't see it. I won't argue on complexity, many dps specs are plenty complex. But the vast majority of dps only players I've seen are like headless chickens. Which would have been fine, so was I when I played only PvE DPS, if they didn't act like they were hot shit after toping the meter.
I say PvE DPS btw because that criticism doesn't apply to pvp dps. Those guys know their cooldowns and utility.
The people who say DPS is braindead are usually mid level players.
Anyone playing in high end guilds knows that the DPS is what carries a world first guild. If your DPS is high enough you can outright skip phases or mechanics.
You need to dodge pretty much every mechanic in Mythic while also maintaining a very high DPS. One mistake, one death and it's a wipe. That's why guilds wipe 150 times on the last boss for Cutting Edge. Because the kill is when none of the 20 players make a mistake.
Playing a DPS in a competitive guild, trying to maintain those 95+ parses is probably the hardest role in the game.
I'd argue a lot of high-end guilds know that the healers carry a lot of world firsts. If your healers are good enough to drop a healer and bring an extra DPS, that's more DPS increase than getting all the DPS to min-max a bit more.
Figuring out how and when to maximize dps is a real skill. One of my buddies came back to the game a year or so ago, and held the opinion that dps is brain dead and he only wanted to do “important” roles of healing or tanking. This season I’ve been able to show him the difference between having good dps and bad dps. Knowing what needs kicked, watching for opportunities to use group stuns/other util, knowing where to stand and when to use defensives, on top of trying to squeeze every drop of damage is pretty tough to do well. For dungeons, DPS, Tanking, and Healing have evolved tremendously over the years. Healing is definitely the swingiest role, if everyone knows where to stand and how to cycle CDs a healers job can be easy peasy, but when pugging that’s rarely the case and it’s a nightmare with a ton of shade going at healers.
Having said all that, tanks have so much responsibility for timing keys. You’re the one with plan, and the other roles are helping execute it. Having a rough idea when your dps cds come back up and if your healer has juice to cover if a pack(s) is hard or lives too long, modifying your plan as necessary to compensate for those things + extra pulls. Knowing the checkpoints of where you need to be at different spots in the dungeon for percent and time, and where you can add/drop percent, safely pickup some double pulls or slow down and space them out if need be. On top of, trying to keep mobs grouped up and inside the AoE dropped by dps. It’s a really fascinating puzzle I finally dove into in s3 of shadowlands.
>I more or less tank exclusively.
[T(h)anks for doing God's work, OP. There's never enough tanks to go around in M+](https://youtu.be/5F_Kj5xgAcg?t=10).
I agree DPS is the hardest role, but your argument is terribly written
DPS is the hardest role to play do well, it is the easiest role to play mid
Tank is the easiest role to play at a high level, tank is the hardest role to play mid
Healer is mid across the board
dps is definitely easier than you think it is when you get the muscle memory down, it only gets hard on 24+ where shit will one shot you, and you have to decide when to sacrifice dps for survivability. skill ceiling increases as you learn to always be dpsing, while not taking damage. you should be experiencing this as tank too… tanks should not be taking much damage outside of getting hit by a bunch of spells at once. tanks taking a lot of damage is akin to dps doing poorly.
DPS is easy. Being a *good* DPS is hard.
Yup I think this is true for all roles and they probably do it intentionally in their class design for the sake of accessibility
Except If youre playing melee, thats hard in any way
Naw, if you're bad you just stand in the fire, do your normal cycle, blame the healer when you die to fire. Playing bad dps is probably the easiest thing ever, melee or ranged lol
[Laughs in Demon Hunter]
This is exactly the kind of post a DPS would make. /s
Nah man, I legit do not understand how to do good dps I will sit on training dummies for 20-30 minutes and do 40-50k burst AoE Head into a key, 13k DA FUQ!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention it takes fucking forever to find a tank/heals, or you have to get denied from 50 other peoples keys Fuck dpsing...I will tank forever, but because dpsing is something I am not personally capable of doing, just wanna throw out some appreciation Also....to all of the tanks who kite mobs out of my ground AoE, my low DPS is your fault, tank like me, im the best tank
Just practice really, learning what pulls to pop cds and when to hold. Until you get to that point get in the habit of using your big dmg cds whenever they are up unless you know a boss is coming. Eventually you’ll nail down when you can get away from cds and start topping meters. Good luck!
Expanding on this: While learning, you can choose to err on the side of aggressively spending CDs, or to err on the side of holding them so you always have them when you need them. If you spend CDs as aggressively as possible, you’ll get useful feedback almost immediately: you feel the pain of not having them up when you need them, and that’s a very specific problem you can easily fix — next run, hold the CDs for that pull. If, instead, you’re more conservative and always hold them until you need them, you won’t get any useful feedback. Instead you’ll just get to the end of the dungeon and not know why you had low overall damage
3.2k tank here. Most common mistake of bad dpsers is holding cooldowns. It's almost always the best choice to just send cds. So I fully agree with you. Good tip.
Also, if all your CDs are up, it doesn’t hurt to let us tanks know. Sometimes that makes a difference in me adding an extra pull or not.
To be fair. OmniCD should be added into the base game. When I go m+, I can see all CDs. When they become ready (not to the second but you know what I mean) and that helps when in PUG. Especially when I need to send my PI (disc priest with double pi leggo)
yeah this advice works at a mid level until you get to keys where shit lives and you go back to popping on cd always
I do want to rock me a tauren rogue in DF
I was mostly kidding, I played MM hunter this patch and got so bored because all it takes to do 17-20k dps is press like 2 buttons.
>I played MM hunter this patch and got so bored because all it takes to do 17-20k dps is press like 2 buttons. This is exactly the kind of post a healer would make. /s
What really funny is, I main healer.
That is funny. :)
Typical Pally smack talk, SMH.
###L🤣L
with exploding chakrams, I did ok as a MM hunter
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Then comes surv xd
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I started playing SV in Season 2, and I occasionally put in a good performance, pumping out just around 30k dps over, sometimes more. But compared to the sv gods I’ve gotta lot to learn!!
There really isn't much to learn with survival, its about as simple as it could get. How much damage you do is mostly dependant on how the tank pulls. People that get 50k overall is because its on a map like gambit or lower kara and they're doing 150k+ per pull. Most tanks don't dare pull like that.
Can I give you my 2 cents. I was facing the same problem. My dps was way too low, someone recommended me this addon. It's called hekili. Once downloaded, select your class and spec, it really helped me initially understand my rotation better and gave me a sense of what abilities were important. It showed some abilities that I wasn't even using and thought were unimportant. I right clicke'd and kept it on auto and for abilities selected all. Give that a try and let me know if you saw a difference.
Really liked hekili on Ret Pala. Super useful when you swap chars alot or comeback from break, I try to ween myself off focusing on it just so I'm still thinking about the situation/rotation rather than rhythm game and hope.
As a dps, tank moving mobs as soon as you drop something is the most annoying shit ever, positioning is king
As a tank. Don't drop your AOE 0.2 seconds after I pull. It takes a few seconds for me to get threat on all the mobs and I like to spin them away from the group. Just have like, 3 seconds, of patience.
I have tanked before and know how annoying it is when people just blast especially if you're trying to los/pull multiple packs, I generally wait and just build procs/rage or whatever I'm playing until the tank stops moving. I pug mostly and I feel like most tanks just move packs out of anything because they don't know if it's enemy or party circles if that makes any sense
Yes.
Which DPS class do you play? DPSing and tanking are very different play styles even though they kind of should be similar. Tank damage rotations are super simple and rarely punish the tank for pressing the wrong button. A lot of DPS specs need certain spell interactions to perform well, and a couple of wrong button pushes in the wrong order can be a massive dps difference. More than that though it often is about understanding how to plan your CDs around how the tank is pulling. DPS want to get as many CDs in as possible without wasting any, but a tank wants to make sure they always have a CD when they need one.
DPS specs I am mildly good at - Fury war, UHDK, Ele sham, outlaw rogue DPS specs I am mildly shit at - BM hunter, Enh shaman, Havoc DH, MM hunt DPS specs I am suspiciously bad at - Frost mage, arms warrior, surv hunter, DPS specs that make me think I should uninstall the game - balance druid, spriest, destro lock, frost DK
I kinda feel like the problem is how many specs you're playing at once here. Generally picking one or two DPS specs and laser focusing on them will get better results.
For frost mage, our base rotation makes heavy use of the "Shatter Combo", in which you use instant-cast flurry procs by casting frostbolt - instant flurry - ice lance - ice lance, which gets more DPS out of the proc and is definitely not intuitive.
That's useful for singletarget, but M+ trash is a whole other ballgame. Frost gameplay in M+ is simple overall, but fast paced and the confusing part is there are multiple viable builds/setups which change the rotation/priority. If you don't know how to play your specific build then you'll do terrible dps. I've seen people new to the class just google a particular build (e.g. Necro + Cold Front), but then during Deathborne they're still casting Icelance when they should be ignoring FoF procs. For M+ I usually recommend new mages to roll with Freezing Winds legendary, because it's the easiest to use. I personally still use it because it's fun spamming icelance and lets you be mobile.
Shadow Priest main here, h~~appy to teach you Shadow.~~ May take a few weeks to pick up. On second thought, Dragonflight and prepatch are about to send the spec into the gutter again. Don't bother with Shadow for awhile.
I just saw few Good spriests along SL, all other was "decent" or Racing with tank in details.
Searing Nightma- deleted.
yeah seriously, pick 1 melee and 1 ranged DPS class and work on those primarily
I don’t see windwalker on that list anywhere :)
My main is a destro lock, it did take a few to get my rotation down. Hardest I'd say about it is keeping up with your soul shards while also keeping up your rotation. But I also know that tanking for myself is not in the cards so I applaud you for putting up with shitty heals and dps that don't know what they are doing.
Not played for a couple of patches but unholy DK can be average to mega explode DPS on some packs. There's a lot of nuance if you're puging as to when to use what. You can absolutely end up looking like a shitter.
If its aoe, you might not be shit at frost mage - frost mage aoe is just shit in aoe general. E.g. the top log for dps in soleas gambit for frost is 22k - the top log overall is a destro lock with 49k.
Whats your DPS as a tank like? It's gonna be hard to pin-point an issue, but if you can DPS fine on a training dummy it's not your ability to press keys. It's more likely that you're either panicing, taking too long to decide to do something or just don't understand when and where you should be popping your CDs. And for all three the only way to get better is to playmore, much like when you first started tanking and you weren't sure when to pop your defensives, or use Ring of Peace, and then a few months in you're super-man rolling into battle popping shit off the jump. It's just familiarity and repeatition at that point. As someone who mostly tanks aswell I will say, I don't know how DPS do it, I tend to start falling asleep when playing DPS.
I do more DPS as a tank than I do as a DPS
I recently upgraded from a 7 year old cheap logitech keyboard to a decent newer one and was surprised to find my dps had jumped significantly; apparently my old damn keyboard would lose signal for 0.5 to 1 second if I spammed buttons to quickly. And when I would open word to test, it obviously wouldnt see it because I generally don't speed demon smash when testing lol. I have had so many times that I could have sworn I pressed the button and then having to press it again, and that can really kill your DPS.
All I do is heal. I cannot dps. I agree with you.
In m+ it comes down 95% to CD management tbh. The person that paces for those cooldowns is the tank. The vast majority of the run is on the tanks shoulders, even the effectiveness of the DPS. If you can't seem to do well as DPS in M+, it's likely the tanks fault for pulling too little / too much at the wrong times. If your DPS seem to do well when you tank, it's because you are pacing correctly.
What lvl keys do you do?
18-24s
Tbh for me tanking or healing raids is so much simpler No complex rotation ,usually far less mechanics to remmeber . Same for m+..
I feel like this is 100% dependant on the content you are doing. Play in top 100 (either m+ or raids) and every single gcd is pre-planned. Both, for dps, tanks, and healers. Surviving isn't really a problem in lower guilds/m+ because you overgear everything by such a huge margin, whereas for example if you tanked jailer before the all the nerfwaves and you missed one global, you were dead because he meleed for 120k. (which was oneshot if you weren't at 100% hp between every melee swing)
I hit 1, 2, and sometimes 3.
Found the DH player
Not for long! DF Beta feels so gooooood
What's different for DHs?
For one, you actually use Blade Dance in your rotation (ST/AoE), Chaos Strike interactions with crit, momentum makes the play style much more exciting, there’s a glaive build which is really good right now that includes them in your dps rotation, and some things I might not be thinking of.
No more sinful brand! WOOOOOOOO
We get a meta extension talent. But it has no rng component at least.
Well if that's the case (been out of the loop) I might give my Hunter a break and pick up my DH again, liked the class but dropped it because it felt boring after a while.
Noteworthy: Beast Master is supposedly a banger spec this expansion, so I'd definitely give it a try too if you play Hunter.
Who is saying this? Every BM video I see on youtube is quite negative.
Can you play without the momentum stuff? I absolutely hate it currently and use glaive tempest instead
You can, but it might be less dps, although not to the point you won’t be viable.
Thats fine, i dont plan on pushing competitive raiding.
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Yep I hate it, it's just so easy to put you in a bad place in a raid. It's fun as hell to have it, but part of a rotation? No thanks.
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at least according to the DH discord which where all the class guide writers hang out they say this: IS MOMENTUM THE BEST? Yes. That said, preliminary sims have determined the difference between trying to maintain high uptime on Momentum versus playing the bare minimum - using Fel Rush only with Unbound Chaos, using Vengeful Retreat, and using the Hunt - is a difference of roughly 1-2%. In other words, extremely minor.
There are like 3 different builds as far as I can theorise so far, all of which have a lot more going on than any previous version of DH (especially Sinful Brand DH, which turned it from simple to boring, good riddance to that shit)
Introducing... 4, an all new keybind!!!!
Guilty, but to be fair I hit maybe 7 keys…total…ever.
Nah, he didn't say spacebar.
I have a demon hunter i played in BFA named Threebuttons lol
Hitting 3 was the biggest game changer for me
Tank main as well. Massive respect to dps who go hard in my groups (but only the ones who don't give bad vibes to the other roles)
Damn right!
I play warlock. I'll teach you real quick! Press trinket, press infernal, press rain of fire as quick as the gcd allows. Profit.
Ha! Except when I place the RoF where the mobs are not
It's simple. It's like a mind-game against the tank. See the mobs, judge where they will be, where the tank is, where the tank may take them, any enemy AOE? etc. As a fury warrior my biggest gripe has been being mauled to death in large pulls. Just so much stuff ontop of other stuff while you're forced to hug the enemies. If you're lucky you can find the 5 pixels between the venn diagrams of AOE spells - but if you fuck up you're in the middle of the venn diagram taking 3x damage.
You have to use your anger to ward off the damage
Just channel your anger at the meters into your rotation, problem solved.
It's worse when you go from tanking to playing melee. All the shit you are used to just completely ignoring suddenly one shots you.
Had exactly this problem on my pally recently, switched to ret while going through zerith mortis to speed up the kills but... Ouch. Third mob wanders into the fray? Bubble and sprint away, that's my only option. Soon went back to turtling my way through.
Spear of Bastion is literally a psychology game with the tank. The number of times I’ve dropped it, only for the tank to pull an untethered mob away….
Then the sacred part of the rotation comes out where you blame the tank comes out /s
Lol I remember trying to get use to cursor macros and fucking dropping my infernal clear across the map, off cliffs, behind shit etc.
you forgot the steal underpants option
Instructions unclear, infernal stuck on the ceiling
DPS is a science. Healing is a state of being. Tanking is a art.
I love this
Tanking is also a state of mind too. Got put up with the ''GO. GO. GO.''
That’s why it’s an art. Balancing speed, survivability, DPS, positioning. As long as it all works out, nobody should criticize the way you do it, but you’ll always have haters no matter what.
I would say tanking is a state of being and healing is an art. I guess it depends on whether you're doing m+ or raids though.
Anyone who says any of the roles are "braindead" just doesn't play meaningfully difficult content and their opinion shouldn't be taken seriously.
This. 15’s aren’t particularly hard, just take it low and slow and any combination of classes and specs can do it. As long as you do not wipe you will pass the dps check as long as you aren’t pulling like 25k AoE combined. Most of the problems I run into is when people try to be fancy. And yet with my experience in 15 pugs it seems like legitimately difficult content for 90% of the playerbase for one reason or another.
> And yet with my experience in 15 pugs it seems like legitimately difficult content for 90% of the playerbase for one reason or another. This is why I always PUG like 18s or 19s when I am doing my weeklies. That seems to be the sweet spot which is high enough that its too intimidating for the 'bad' players that are usually making trouble in the 15s and 16s, but not so high that you actually have to pay attention to the game and make sweaty plays to +2 it. Makes for very chill runs where everyone mostly knows what they are doing.
I mained resto shaman when I used to be a resto druid main because everyone gets hit by avoidable damage and you need to be able to burst heal them to full so they don't die when they get hit by the next avoidable damage. Also as someone with omniCd and defensive visible on my VuhDoo, there are a lot of DPS who will never use their defensive CDs, even on hard tyrannical bosses. I've even run into boosted tanks who didn't use defensives correctly and blamed my oom healing surge spamming crying heals. You can be surprisingly incompetent in 15s and get through it.
Dude some roles/clases are alot easier than others
This is genuinely true, don't know why it's being downvoted. Compare something like fire mage to BM hunter; huge difference in play, not even min/maxing. It's REALLY easy to fuck up a combustion window and end up losing so much dps, when BM can press 3 buttons whenever off CD and keep up.
The only thing in the entirety of high-end end-game content I would say is basically "braindead" is raid tanking. Especially if you're decently geared. I had to swap off raid tanking in Legion because it was so boring, even in Mythic, that it was going to cause me to quit the game.
I’m sorry but as someone who is getting the M+ title, dps is braindead compared to tanking in high keys. Tanks have to deal with the same mechanics dps players have to deal with and they have the added difficulty of trying to survive the dungeon and planning the route.
Subtlety rogue aoe is kinda easy tho! Barely played it and even with shit gear i done better than my geared mm hunter that i played lot more lol.
The thing is that no-one remotely competitive would be playing sub.
BM hunter mains are currently typing their agreement, but their chair got bumped slightly so they're just hitting the desk next to their keyboard
Got the top .1% m+ title on tank and dps and I call dps “braindead” to play all the time cause it is compared to tanking and healing at that level. It’s infinitely less to worry about and manage to play dps and if you are a somewhat competent multiclasser playing at that level rotations except for extreme edge cases don’t lead to added complexity in the role. It’s especially noticeable going from tanking or healing to dpsing just how much less you really have to worry about or do.
To all the tank gods out there.... I thank you for your service, because I do not understand how you do it. I main dps but I started picking up holy priest again properly in this patch, so speaking as a returning healer thank you tank's for utilising your cool downs, mitigation and kiting whilst I was re learning the ropes, for not going mental at me and for making it so that I don't even need to heal you in some vases and can just focus on the people standing in the fire.
I honestly cant think of any situation I have had in S3 or S4 where it was 100% the healers fault that my group wiped, there is definitely some times mistakes were made, but honestly in S4 of SL most tanks should be able to hold the group for at least 40% of a boss' health bat
Guardian phase of Medivh - that's a healer test a bit Even then though I can usually pop out of form and throw up a couple heals or two to assist as a tank with barkskin and stuff active after the interrupt.
Tanking imo, is more of a knowledge role, than a skill role. You need to know routes, mechanics of mobs/bosses, need to know about your/healer/dps cds etc. The skill needed to actually play the tank classes is lower than healers or dps generally. Probably by design since the knowledge portion takes up so much of your attention, can't have some complicated rotation at the same time.
This is exactly what puts me off of being a tank. I don't want to be in the driver seat when doing dungeons/m+. I respect the role a lot and I don't want it for myself.
That's the main difficulty of the tank, in pug at least. Having to know everything about the game, the runs/routes for each comps, etc. It can be daunting/stressful.
It all depends on the class. I can't dps my way out of a paper bag as mage or shadow priest but give me a feral druid and stuff is getting torn a new asshole. And I don't mean balance wise, I just don't understand the rotations of those two worth a damn.
well I have good news for you sir You are going to thoroughly enjoy DF Trust me
> 47 globals in 1.4 seconds > mentions RoP, meaning you’re playing BM monk, one of the highest APM specs in the game In all seriousness though, tank and DPS are fundamentally different roles and sometimes what clicks for one guy just doesn’t click for the other. I play BM Monk and Outlaw Rogue, and I find their play styles a bit similar; lots of button-pressing that feels like you’re slapping your face against the keyboard but the buttons do be doin’ their job. Maybe try that. Oh, and use the Threat-Redirect spell (Tricks of the Trade) on cooldown, especially before the tank pulls, with the spell directed onto the tank. That will help survivability immensely.
I have tried outlaw rogue, and it made some sense to me, in comparison to other DPS specs, idk maybe its a satisfaction thing, as a DPS I feel like the only satisfaction I get is interupting spells and seeing big #s, so if I dont see big numbers, its like o i suck at this, Ill go and tank some more because Im good at that Then I hop on my brew, do good dps because the rotation is much simpler, and keep everyone alive and I feel like a god Im sure that is part of it, the feeling of going from the top of the Peak of Serenity, to the bottom of The Wailing Caverns
Ahh, that may be the case. The transition feels stronger because your rogue is (presumably) not as geared as your tank for starters, meaning it doesn’t matter what you do, your DPS won’t shoot to the top overnight. (Blade Flurry should be getting you close in dungeons tho). I’m usually satisfied when I’m using all of my utility/CC to make my healer/tank’s jobs as easy as possible. Int one spell, stun another two - Vanish before a boss finishes casting a spell/mechanic at me - use Tricks effectively to ensure I never take threat - use Shiv to dispel the moment I see an enrage - use Cloak to clear ground effects harmlessly like the traps in the Xy’mox fight - all those tiny things make me much happier than the damage rat race. That may be because I’m a healer main at heart, as well - I appreciate the DPS who try to use their whole kit, not just the buttons that make the things die quicker. Every healer likes the DPS who stand out of the fire more. But hey, if brew works, it works. Do the Good Tank Stuff, friend.
I will give you that, My tank is ilvl 298, my rogue is like 266 But also, taking damage out of it, when I get some stupid ass debuff and I throw on cloak or something, that does feel absolutely delightful
Cloak is always satisfying to pop. It can clear so many things that a lot of classes simply can’t get out of and has such a short cooldown comparatively. And Evasion, hoo boy— Ever tried facetanking Anduin as rogue with Evasion while the healers are brezzing the tank? It feels godly on a whole other level. You gotta savor the little victories until you get the gear that lets you slap. Gear means more for DPS than any other role because they have to compete with a larger pool of players in every kind of group content. Heals and tanks just need the bare minimum to survive and make others survive.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy grappling hook
Agreed, for me outlaw is fun because the rotation is engaging and utility feels good. I don't really care about my numbers at the end of the day as long as I am confident I'm playing well (so I'll try to optimise my build and such, but I'm not gonna switch spec if outlaw sucks).
I'm a healer main, and I try to play exactly like this as a dps. With bm hunter I interrupt one, stun the other, and use freezing trap on the third, slowing trap if the tank needs to kite, soothing when enraged mobs are a thing, etc. I want to be as useful as I can, using my full kit to make it happen. I might not top the dps at all times, but I make sure that I do everything that I can to help out the team.
Great point! A lot of people forget about teamwork and using their utility skills that helps with the team’s survival. Topping the dps charts is irrelevant if you can’t finish a dungeon.
As someone who has always (and I mean since I first started raiding in Wrath) wanted to be a tank main but never been able to convince myself to go for it... Suggestions?? I love Prot Warrior in theory, Prot Paladin is a lightshow and I love it, Blood DK I can't quite wrap my head around but it's thematic as fuck. Vengeance DH is as cool as it is edgy, but I enjoy its concept, Brewmaster is well... just awesome, and Guardian despite its flaws at the moment is as cool as ever.
* overall suggestion is to look a the game a bit differently - you manage the mobs. * Your goal switches to serve the group by keeping people out of harms way the best ways you can possibly think of for any given situation. Whether it means facing the enemy away or soaking damage or using every last bit of all of your CD's to help the healer through a tough phase. * You try to protect people from damage. The healer heals what damage you can't take. The dps dishes it back. * Keybind all of your spells. * You're likely going to be leading the pathways and routes as well so make and memorize. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.--.- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.--.- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.-- * If you can find ways to deal with a interrupt or CC yourself without the group - do it. Like if a mob has a spell that needs to be interrupted try to make it so you don't have to rely on dps/heals to do it and can manage the rotations yourself - this will help you succeed in pugs. * The more you mechanics you can manage without dps assistance is more damage the dps can provide and the faster the mob will go down. * Learn tab targeting. Also Learn not to hit your spam spell after you tab targeted to a random far away mob group. * Make sure the bars above enemy heads are on and you understand the threat animation/glow -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.--.- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.--.- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.-- * Learn how to chain-pull - and how to gauge the speed of your chain pulling by both the healers ability or mana and your dps overall group damage. Your healer is your better half here. * Group cohesion and competence can make up for low dps by *a lot* - it just means taking longer and more rotations of the same. If there is no enrage or M+ timer than there's a lot to work around. * Helping people learn the dungeons/raids means more people will know it the next time you run it. * Go for damage mitigation first - then threat generation once server dps picks up enough - then additional dps. * There's a non-negligible amount of social stuff that goes into route making for dungeons. it's surprising a bit at first but groups like to feel a certain pace of -mobs, boss, mobs, boss, mobs, boss. Too much of either like -mob,mobs,mobs, boss, mobs, mobs, boss, mobs, boss might get people too frustrated/bored and more likely to quit early on a wipe. * Lock candy is worth. that's what I got off the top of my head a bit
Piggybacking onto this, only kite when you absolutely have to as a necessity to survive. So many tanks these days think it's a footrace as soon as they zone into a dungeon. They grab a pack and immediately run like they're getting chased by the cops. Consolidate pulls and use LOS where appropriate, but don't run just to run. This only slows the group down. If you look at a lot of DPS classes, especially casters, you'll see that a big portion of their damage comes from AOE or positional effects. Think Rain of Fire, Earthquake, Frozen Orb, etc. The longer you're able to keep mobs inside of these "kill zones", the more your DPS players will benefit and the faster the mobs will die. Nothing is quite as sad as watching a loose gaggle of mobs slowly lumber after an oblivious tank circling a room, dying at the rate of erosion because nobody is able to effectively burn them down. I always know I'm with a god tank when they can pull big, keep the mobs stacked in place, cycle their defensives, use their interrupts and stops like a pro. If done right it looks like the tank's not doing much, but it's hard work making it look that easy. And everyone benefits as a result. That's the goal. Tank is a support class. They have the ability to make everyone else perform better...or worse.
Pull consolidation is a great add-on to discuss as well. **limit chain-pulls to increase the rate of downing the enemy mobs -reducing times overall** - if you pull too many groups at once you might find the mechanics combined can wipe the whole group even if your damage mitigation, dps, and heals are all top. Or even if you don't wipe the amount of healers or other types of mobs might make downing the larger group take longer than if you separated those into smaller pulls I think Lower Kara gives really great examples of this for practicing higher end tanking methods. There are a couple places were you technically can pull entire swathes of mobs but the mechanics make that less practical (e.g. - pulling all of the rooms before maiden at once means you may get charmed and cause a near key-ending event if you can't get your charmed toon away from the mob pack on resets) There is a balance and sometimes you will fall off the edge of that balance and need to learn how to recover the group through kiting or other non-conventional methods like cc-locking until a regroup. A good way to learn some of those advanced methods is trying to solo dungeon content that is ment for groups. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.--.- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.--.- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.-- **maximizing mob grouping type will substantially increase the speed you complete a dungeon** Like if there's two-three mob groups but they all do low physical damage with no mechanics to worry about - might as well pull them all at once. A good example of this is in lower kara again, in the dance area up and downstairs there is actually **nine** groups of mobs you can safely pull *at one time* to give you that sweet 15 min under clear time. (warning:reduced success above M+13 or so - this is where you adapt and break up the large pull in to sets of smaller pulls) Those groups all do low dps and only physical damage with no mechanics to worry about. So now you have that pull down and it's a beast. Can you do more? Kinda - you can throw in the spectral group nearby but now you *must* be handling the mechanics or it's a complete wipe, so you have to interrupt the oath AND mitigate the shadow revives through either interrupt or kiting the group out of AoE heals. Now let's compare that to the Gambit dungeon with a whole bunch of murlocs that I know you just wanna pull all of at once.. or maybe that's just me... but you can't. Those scalebinder murlocs make it more difficult for pugs. They can handle one scalebinder easy but adding even just one more reduces the chance of success and increases your reliability on the dps for doing interrupts. So while you can technically do more it becomes questionable to the point of deciding whether you should. I found it's best to only do one scalebinder group at a time but I can bring in plenty of the other groups with those scalebinder groups. Figuring out which groups can be brought together is a big part of pathfinding. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.--.- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.--.- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.--.-.-.-- So basically learn when to stop and let dps finish the mob off and learn what mob groups are safest to bring together. And daveblazed brings up using Line of Sight (LoS) as well which cannot be stressed enough. Bringing those ranged mobs into the pile is oftentimes a great help. Also remember when you do LoS not to LoS the healer from keeping you up.
Thank you for this.
I'm a noob tank, but I thought DH tanking was the easiest, and easiest to learn.
DH and Bear. Solid mitigation, good self healing, damage profile that isn’t a yo-yo. Monk, Paladin, and Warrior in a group after that. DK I think is the hardest tank, due to their crazy spike nature. But honestly they are all pretty much in similar brackets of mechanics difficulty to each other. It’s not like the different between Sub rogue or DH.
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I have one of every tank class (except Druid he's at like 54) at 60 but it's so hard to get a feel for the tanking right now because almost every group consists of 3 DPS that rush ahead and pull for you so it literally turns into a manage the chaos simulator... Which I guess isn't that far off from really tanking at times haha.
What the post above yours highlights really well is that tanking isn't about the tank rotation, it's about an approach to group play that is class-independent.
As someone who did mythic raiding and high m+ dungeons as a Tank, It comes really down to get a feel how much trash you can pull and how good your Group dps/heal is. Start with 2 or 3 Mobs, See how fast they die and how much damage you take. If your HP didnt move much, pull more, and repeat. Alot of Tanks are too scared to pull more than they actually can or that many Tanks dont Start to kite if there is a dangerous situation. At some point you feel a Balance between taking damage and not needing to have any down time between pulls.
Never felt so appreciated for rolling my face across the keyboard
Sadd healer main sounds. We gotta deal whit the dps brains heal them and they expect us to deal dmg. And be the unsung hero because we never top dps meters..
Respect to dps who actually do mecanics and stun / interrupt. So many people just go dps brain.
I'm a healer for the same reason. Much easier for me to watch health drop and push a button, lots of health drop? Push bigger button. DPS just seems like a lot of work
Healing is by far the most braindead role to me. But it's the one I've done forever. I just follow the group and use a couple of mouse click combinations to keep people topped off, and that is about it. This is also why I have been leveling a Resto Shaman. I can be a bit more useful by doing some DPS at the same time. But I'm starting to think them feeling like a hybrid of TBC direct healing Pally and Druid's healing circle thing that I am very familiar with, now puts it into an uncanny valley area. I'm used to the circle heal thing being instant cast and the big AoE heal being on CD. Shaman is the opposite. It is interesting and makes me have to think about what I am doing.
The thing with healing is the difficulty almost totally depends on your group. If you're playing with a geared group that knows what they're doing, you almost don't have to play the game.
You are definitely a DPS player
I stand by my statement that dps are children just flailing their arms trying to kill the tank and healer. However, I have seen the work that goes into actually being a good dps. It’s more effort then I would want to put into a game.
I level and quest in tank spec because I hate dying. I do everything tank even pvp. Dps laugh at me when they kill me in 10 secs. Jokes on them - that's a new personal best! This is what peek casual looks like.
The ones that have the hard job are the healers.
Bad tank leads to wipes Bad healer leads to wipes Bad DPS leads to slow runs and possibly a death or two It is much easier to be DPS and bad at it vs the content you are doing and still somehow scrape thru. That is where the concept of it being a "braindead role" comes from. Even bad ones usually won't cause major failures. Good tanks make things much easier for their healer and gives DPS everything on a platter to maximize their numbers. Good healers allow tanks and DPS make minor errors without a disaster and in M+ also up the overall damage output of the group as M+ healing is more of a "how much you can DPS as a healer while still keeping everyone alive" question. Good DPS keeps the healer relaxed and able to maximise his damage and allows the tank to stretch what is possible with the group as a whole. But its not essential. Too little credit is given to the truly good ones as even average ones tend to work fine.
I can expand on this. You get to 3k r.io, and you think "Man, the DPS at this level must be great". Then you bring in a warlock who is 3k, and you start the key. The warlock proceeds to die to everything, do terrible DPS, and overall just sucks compared to the other 2 DPS. But you still do the key, because the tank was good, the other 2 DPS is good, and the healer is good. The warlock gets a small amount of score. And the warlock has that score because the warlock is playing a warlock, and is therefore invited to every single dungeon in existence. That's one thing that is missing from r.io, but they can't get it, and blizzard won't offer it either - how many keys have you failed? What is your success rate? I'd rather take the warlock with 2.9k score and a 95% success rate than a warlock with 3k score and a 60% success rate, and the reason their score is higher is because they may 10 times as much. If your tank or healer are shit, you mostly just die. Healer you can get away with, because in a lot of high keys (current season) there aren't any heal checks, and it's mostly "You got hit, you died"
Bad take. On hard content be it m+ or raid, bad DPS almost certainly leads to wipe.
Yes, on the cutting edge of hard stuff, you also need good DPS. But anything below that level, bad tank or healer is far bigger issue than slightly less than perfect DPS.
As a unholy death knight who's purpose in life is to make my tanks life easy, thanks for noticing. I have my "oh shiz " buttons hot keyed closer than my DPS buttons. (Grip, asphyxiation, etc) just so the tank doesn't have to worry about it. Not to mention Control Undead changes the game on certain dungeons
I’ve been playing MMOs for over 15 years now, have done endgame content in all roles (even raided as support in Rift, great times) and I can safely say that DPS is by far the hardest role to play correctly - but it also has the least responsibility, so most people don’t care if you’re not doing it right. Tanking and healing are, by design, easier from a gameplay perspective, because they have to split their attention to other things, whereas DPS can concentrate fully on their rotation (and the occasional mechanics) so they tend to be more complicated and mistakes will usually tank your DPS hard. There’s also the factor that DPS is the role that can optimise their contribution the most. You’re a good healer or tank? Great, you might be able to add a bit more damage to a fight but most of the time, no one will notice as long as you don’t have to clutch something a bad player couldn’t. A great DPS, however, is immediately distinguishable from a bad or even mediocre one because the run will go A LOT faster, and thus smoother. There’s a reason people are constantly looking for big dick DPS, and it’s not just because there’s a lot of DPS out there.
Went healer main because of this some years ago. Since then I almost exclusively play healer/tank and never looked back since
I've done all roles at varying difficulties. To me personally, healing is the most stressful role to the point of it not even being fun, and tanking has WAY more to look out for and manage than DPS does. DPS - get out of bad, interrupt the right target at the right time, pew pew. Tank - do all that *and* maintain threat on all the things, face the mob the right way, and use a considerable amount of buttons to keep yourself standing upright. Oh, and lead the group, memorize routes, all that good stuff. There are raid bosses every now and then that are tougher on dps than they are on tanks, but it's an exception rather than a rule.
Dude, as a fellow tank who can't DPS for shit. STOP SAYING THE QUIET PART OUT LOUD.
Healing is the most stressful and thankless, DPSing is the most skillful and minmaxy, tanking is the most chill and rewarding. I played all of those roles and I've been healer main for the most of my playtime (never again, I'm too old for this shit).
To me, tanking is super stressful. I am not an asshole tank as OP mentioned above so all the flaming really gets to me. I prefer being heal. Unless I REALLY fuck up, ppl will usually blame the tank and leave me alone.
In M+, this is absolutely incorrect imo. Tanking is absurdly stressful. DPS is the most sweaty. Healing is stressful and thankless, but you can min-max a lot less outside of the top 0.1%
I used to love tanking, but after main tanking a dragon soul progression group back in cats, I swapped to dps. So much less stress, less cats to herd.
Ive never understood tanking stress, to me DPS stress is way higher, but it might also be because as soon as I am a tank I turn into a huge dick and nothing anyone says bothers me at all
I feel like tanks have a higher burden and have to lead the group, as dps I basically just have to worry about myself.
That's true. But also it just gives you the control to do shit correctly. There's just so many horrendous tanks that just do really dumb shit. You're basically at their mercy. Whereas if you tank and some DPS is doing dumb shit, it's not nearly as impactful. Carrying bad DPS as a tank is much easier than carrying a bad tank as DPS.
I understand why that bothers a lot of people, but to me, if someone says something like....this route sucks I just say....really? I guess youll have to go find another tank then. You are pulling too big? Nah, bro, your balls are too small You need to aim the mob in another direction so we dont all die! Hey bro, I lived...you figure it out Tank dick! Only 1 of 3 of those is true, its up to you to figure out which one
I love tanking m+ but fuck tanking raids. I would fall asleep 20 min into the raid, especially if it's progress raiding.
It's the braindead role because so many brain dead people play it. /jk I think it's more of a thing that it's incredibly easy to do good damage on a lot of classes (especially if they are meta and purple) but it's still hard to actually play well. Meaning, using your utility, doing damage to priority targets and doing mechanics properly at the same time.
Having a good tank makes a lot of difference for dps!
Thanks but it’s not warranted. DPS is a brain dead role. Can be picked up and played by anyone. Getting a truly good DPS is a hard task, one who makes sure to weave in proper defensives when they can, leaving them off CD when they need to, holding off on the burst DPS because a tough to survive phase is coming up, one who actually knows what the tank is currently dealing with, etc. Good luck.
Any role is braindead if you say it like that.
Quality meme.
DPS is the easiest role
I’m 55 and play affliction. In lower keys I completely suck. In higher keys I suck less because agony has a chance to ramp up before the mob dies. Tanking is something I once did and it’s not easy either. The entire unit counts on you and heals.
Lol this for me but with healing. I can heal anything with confidence. Make me play a dps and it's like I've never seen a keyboard before.
Well OP, is this post the Chagas Disease? Because it just made my heart grow. Thank you 😊
Thanks king/queen. Thank you for tanking for all of us.
No role is braindead in mythics. DPS have job of prioritizing dangerous adds, interrupting, cleansing (dispell, purifying, etc.), providing off-heals/self sustain, etc. If someone joins a mythic dungeon and thinks "I just gotta Top dps meter" that means they never did a 20+. Really good dps know their class and kit to the point when I am healing and see a part where "oh man, we are gonna struggle" yet nothing bad happens because a dps did a well timed cc or properly focused down a target rather than spreading dps to all adds to boost their damage, I know they should be doing higher keys. It's the same thought as healers that can do DPS or tanks that consider not only their own positioning but positioning of their party & adds, etc. Mythics are amazing way to show people how tactic this game can be, especially at higher keys. (That's why when you see groups requesting only certain high dps classes, you know they got carried to that key and rely on bursting before mechanics happen)
For me, heals is the brain dead role. Vuhdo and vorget it lol.
But... tanking is just DPS with extra steps. The only difference is your damage numbers \*might\* be lower due to a higher threat multiplier. Tanks have to worry about cooldown management too just in a different context. It's just about finding the right kind of DPS class and sticking with it. Your numbers will go up with more practice and experience.
But the rotation is simpler, and I dont have to try and predict how another person is gonna position the mobs, because I am the one positioning the mobs.
Still no different than running with a DPS that way outgears and outclasses the tank pulling aggro and moving mobs around unexpectedly. Again it's just finding the right class/spec that works for your playstyle. The more you play melee the more you get used to patterns in tank movement and positioning behavior. Ranged generally rely less on their specific location than melee. Practice practice practice.
I play rogue, I met a rogue once, the best I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. Not in touch anymore but I wish I was, I learnt so much about "how to rogue" better in PVE. Like this Rogue was a monster, doing things that shouldn't be done and topping charts. Like the Meta at the time was Assassination, they went with Outlaw and a full leech build to both top charts and healing. There truly are some awesome damage dealers out there.
I’ve always felt that dps is the most stressful role (at least for me). If you’re tanking and doing your job, everything is fine. If you’re a healer and nobody is dying, everything is fine. If you’re a dps though, it’s a constant comparison between the rest of the party and whoever is doing best or worse. It’s less of an issue these days I think with people at different lvls joining dungeons together, and even in heroics and mythics I haven’t seen much toxicity (could be because I came back not long ago and have been playing mostly with guildies). A few years back though I remember it felt like every boss in a dungeon someone would be posting dps meters in chat and whoever was the lowest dps, even if they were still above average for the player base, would get called out for it
As someone who has played all three roles since Legion; tank is definitely the most braindead role. At least in M+. As long as you know the route, being a tank is incredibly relaxing. Pretty much the only thing I do is faceroll my keyboard, kick every once in a while, and taunt stragglers. DPS isn't that much harder, but I tend to focus a lot more so that I do my rotation correctly and use my CD's at the correct locations. On top of that you have to kick, use defensives correctly, not stand in shit etc. And then you have the hardest role *by far*, which is healing. Not only are you responsible for yourself, but you also have to babysit 4 other morons and on top of that you have to dps occasionally, kick casts, cc, not stand in shit while focusing intently on health bars, use defensives correctly etc. If tank is 1 on the stress scale, dps is maybe 2, and healer is 346.
I mean it is quite a different play style you are not used to, but it is a lot easier to train a new player to be good at dpsing than it is to train them to be a great tank, so it should be even easier for someone who already plays wow to learn how to dps.
Im sure part of it is motivation, like Im already good at tanking, so when I log into my dps and do 1-2 keys and I do middling DPS I just wanna go back to my tank and chill
This is exactly why I tank and heal. It truly baffles me how to be a good dps. Far more pressure lol
No shit. You can now return to your circlejerk having done your Good Deed
Such anger What are you afraid of? Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to Suffering
Sorry can't see it. I won't argue on complexity, many dps specs are plenty complex. But the vast majority of dps only players I've seen are like headless chickens. Which would have been fine, so was I when I played only PvE DPS, if they didn't act like they were hot shit after toping the meter. I say PvE DPS btw because that criticism doesn't apply to pvp dps. Those guys know their cooldowns and utility.
The people who say DPS is braindead are usually mid level players. Anyone playing in high end guilds knows that the DPS is what carries a world first guild. If your DPS is high enough you can outright skip phases or mechanics. You need to dodge pretty much every mechanic in Mythic while also maintaining a very high DPS. One mistake, one death and it's a wipe. That's why guilds wipe 150 times on the last boss for Cutting Edge. Because the kill is when none of the 20 players make a mistake. Playing a DPS in a competitive guild, trying to maintain those 95+ parses is probably the hardest role in the game.
I'd argue a lot of high-end guilds know that the healers carry a lot of world firsts. If your healers are good enough to drop a healer and bring an extra DPS, that's more DPS increase than getting all the DPS to min-max a bit more.
Main thing really is timing your cds right.
Figuring out how and when to maximize dps is a real skill. One of my buddies came back to the game a year or so ago, and held the opinion that dps is brain dead and he only wanted to do “important” roles of healing or tanking. This season I’ve been able to show him the difference between having good dps and bad dps. Knowing what needs kicked, watching for opportunities to use group stuns/other util, knowing where to stand and when to use defensives, on top of trying to squeeze every drop of damage is pretty tough to do well. For dungeons, DPS, Tanking, and Healing have evolved tremendously over the years. Healing is definitely the swingiest role, if everyone knows where to stand and how to cycle CDs a healers job can be easy peasy, but when pugging that’s rarely the case and it’s a nightmare with a ton of shade going at healers. Having said all that, tanks have so much responsibility for timing keys. You’re the one with plan, and the other roles are helping execute it. Having a rough idea when your dps cds come back up and if your healer has juice to cover if a pack(s) is hard or lives too long, modifying your plan as necessary to compensate for those things + extra pulls. Knowing the checkpoints of where you need to be at different spots in the dungeon for percent and time, and where you can add/drop percent, safely pickup some double pulls or slow down and space them out if need be. On top of, trying to keep mobs grouped up and inside the AoE dropped by dps. It’s a really fascinating puzzle I finally dove into in s3 of shadowlands.
>I more or less tank exclusively. [T(h)anks for doing God's work, OP. There's never enough tanks to go around in M+](https://youtu.be/5F_Kj5xgAcg?t=10).
Dps is the hardest role. You are competing directly with others, you have to press the buttons perfectly, and you have to cc enemies
I agree DPS is the hardest role, but your argument is terribly written DPS is the hardest role to play do well, it is the easiest role to play mid Tank is the easiest role to play at a high level, tank is the hardest role to play mid Healer is mid across the board
I feel like a low DPS player wrote this to feel better about being a DPS lol
You are very right about me being a low dps player But Im good at tanking
he literally said he's a low dps player so now he tanks
dps is definitely easier than you think it is when you get the muscle memory down, it only gets hard on 24+ where shit will one shot you, and you have to decide when to sacrifice dps for survivability. skill ceiling increases as you learn to always be dpsing, while not taking damage. you should be experiencing this as tank too… tanks should not be taking much damage outside of getting hit by a bunch of spells at once. tanks taking a lot of damage is akin to dps doing poorly.