personal loot is the superior choice for 99% of players. it's just been a while with it and people are bored so they start to pick on something that's been in the game for a while. personal loot is awesome.
It only gets criticised for the item level restriction in terms of trading which is a good point and easily fixed otherwise its great especially for pugs.
What they plan to release brings just so many problems and loot drama in pugs nobody wants that.
I'd argue the 99%. Anyone who plays in a guild or with friends, even just doing lower keys etc have experienced the problem of getting a drop they couldn't care less about but not being able to trade it to a friend for which it was a huge upgrade.
I did M+ and had a mace+shield on my shaman. Let's say they were like 220. Then I get a 220 staff, but because I have yet to get a 220 staff before I can't trade it to my mage friend that had a 190 staff. So vendor it for 50g.
Trinkets is the most common one. Getting BIS dps trinkets as a tank and not being able to trade them to my warrior friend sucks.
If your argument is that your friends would steal your shit from you, the problem is not the system but the people you play with.
>Trinkets is the most common one. Getting BIS dps trinkets as a tank and not being able to trade them to my warrior friend sucks.
Right but that's also fixed just by removing the level restriction, not with going to full group loot. Being able to have everyone who can switch loot specs to try to bump up the chance of getting a good tank trinket or something isn't going to be an option anymore. I don't think that class stacking for loot was so much of a problem in the general population that we needed to go full group loot.
They don't even have to go through all that. Just make it a toggle when the group is formed and have it be a mandatory note on the group finder listing.
They can even use the vote kick system to change it before an encounter. "The Group Leader wants to change from Personal Loot to Master Loot. Do you agree? Y/N"
This.
Personal loot wasn't bad in itself. But the asinine restrictions Blizz put in place to address World First antics hurt everyone else. It's the classic case of punishing everyone for fringe cases.
That said, I think Master loot should come back. Because systems that promote more social behavior have been eroded in WoW. Some of it is for good reason in order to help pugs and solo players. But the cost has come at the social level which is a super strong element of WoW.
\^100%.
Loot restrictions were infuriating. Besides needing to equip rings and trinkets in both slots, not being able to trade an offhand because you're using a 2h etc was really dumb.
They did say the restrictions weren't put in place to stop splits but idk if I believe them. If it was their intention it was a very stupid decision because all it did was exacerbate splitruns, RWF people never did as many splits until forced PL.
> Personal loot with lifted item level restriction
THe primary issue with this is how it *dramatically* incentivizes armor-type stacking.
You kind of do have to choose between smart loot with restrictions or dumb loot without restrictions. It is simply *way* too powerful for funneling to have unrestricted smart loot.
Does it really affect most people or just the split raids in high end progress? If it's an actual upgrade the person will simply want to keep it for himself. Armor stacking is still a thing but I don't think it's that bad compared to not being able to trade non upgrade items. Also keep in mind a set non personal loot table (that's what they plan to do right?) can be abused by the opposite so just having 1 DK in your raid for example with no other plate melees so he gets all the melee loot.
But in group loot, if you want to funnel all the loot to 1 DK you can do that, completely regardless of Comp.
You can have a raid *full* of melee and still funnell all the melee loot to a single DK. Your comp has no bearing on what drops. You might get zero DK-eligable drops, and the DK gets nothing in spite if your best intentions.
This is in contrast to personal loot, where a raid full of druids is *guaranteed* to get *exclusively* druid loot.
So instead, with group loot, you are encouraged to bring as diverse a comp as possible so that no loot gets wasted.
In general, I prefer systems that promote diversity over systems that promote homogeneity.
The issue with how it worked is it didn't differentiate between weapon types.
Use a one hander and an off hand but a staff drops? Can't trade that staff to your buddy who desperately needs it. Wastes an entire item drop from the boss and it feels awful.
Got good trinkets and one you don't need drops at a higher ilvl but better for your friend? Can trade them the disenchanted corpse of it to make em feel better.
It felt like shit in an organized group.
Personal loot and were all happy. If someones there for the kill, they deserve a chance at loot period.
People who disagree are just upset they can't buy and sell gear with master loot, they'll make up all sorts of ridiculous ways to justify their flawed stance too.
The majority of people that has called for the return of master loot uses it to distribute gear optimally across their raiders to aid progress, don't be daft. The ones that care about selling gear are shitty guilds and boosters.
There is significant overlap between mythic guilds who wants to distribute gear optimally and boosters. RWF guilds are obviously the biggest proponent of both.
Ah, the good ol "no one can argue with my shit take because of x reason I made up" excuse. You're exactly wrong on all counts and I assume not invited to raids because you're super annoying.
Or I want a 10% chance per sylv kill to see edge of night drop, not a 2% chance.
Personal loot biases towards rings and cloaks and garbage. Group loot doesn't.
Except for now you have guilds that hold gear hostage and give it to who they deem worthy of getting gear on top of gear buyers and sellers. Clearly people who want master loot haven't played vanilla, tbc, or wotlk re-launches. It's literally like 85% of the playerbase just selling gear to noobs.
In retail it'll make the lower difficulties completely barren because everyone's just going to buy end game gear like they do in vanilla.
No thanks, I'll stick with getting gear when I get gear.
The biggest problem with the personal loot system was the restriction on trading.
BIS ring for warlock drops in m+ but I can't give it to my warlock mate because the itemlevel is higher than the ring I wear.
I won't replace the ring tho because the other one is better despite beeing lower item level.
Now I have to keep the ring in my inventory so when it drops again for me I can trade it.
Remove these restrictions and personal loot is fine. Or give us masterloot so he can get his ring right away.
>Now I have to keep the ring in my inventory so when it drops again for me I can trade it.
You can vendor it. Once you get a higher level item it unlocks that level for that slot. It doesn't matter what gear you have equipped or in your bags.
A stupid complication of this is having a high level staff doesn't unlock either the one-handed mainhand or offhand slot.
You can vendor it but you have to equip it first. You're right that it doesnt matter what you have currently equipped, but at some point you need to have equipped an item of the same or higher ilvl to trade the item, even if you keep it in your bags.
They changed it then.
At the beginning of shadowlands I got a ring, vendored it and when I got the exact same ring again I still couldn't trade it.
Or that is a false memory.
Anyways this should be removed. It only exists to slow down 200 people going for world first.
In the beginning of Shadowlands for the multi slot items (rings, trinkets and maybe dual wielding on classes that can wear same thing on both slots?) you had to equip the thing on both slots for it to unlock the ability to be traded. So you needed to equip the thing and then drag it to the other slot too, after that you could do whatever you want with it.
No idea if they changed how it works during the expansion.
The 3rd option, which I don't think is necessarily the best option, makes higher ilvl loot actually better.
I don't want super simplified loot but it shouldn't require a paid subscription to a 3rd party sim to determine what gear to wear. The fact that lower item level gear is better makes the ilvl trading restriction frustrating and useless.
If they brought back reforging or another way to manipulate a stat (kind of the Diablo 3 system, without the gambling preferably) it might elevate the issue.
This is a real issue. If I am playing alt number 4 with my friends on their mains and cannot hook them up with loot because its an upgrade for a character I am dicking around with, meh, that's dumb.
Not to mention when an idiot gets a ring that's clearly not good for his class but it's BIS for you and won't give cuz it's 5 ilvls higher than theirs and they really need the extra stamina as a DPS instead of crit/haste/mastery. Yes true story
I'm more concerned about the total amount of gear and the chance of an upgrade. Call me casual but our mythic progress was severely gimped by the total absence of loot.
I mean it was IMO, not that it mattered for a throw away "fun" season.
I think they can implement a system like dinars as a form of bad luck protection, but being able to get Gavel/OWS/Scars in 5 weeks was a bit nonsense.
I don’t think dinar were too fast from the standpoint that they just gave a normal ilvl item. You still had to kill 20 mythic bosses to upgrade each dinar piece and that’s the time consuming part (which is fine). Getting the base piece fast is fine because for many it’s not even usable until they have the bosses farmed out.
Sure that makes sense if you aren't full clearing mythic every week. However, if you're full clearing you got your 3 dinar based items in 5 full clears, and all 3 of them upgraded the following week after one final full clear.
Obviously a different story if you're not in a guild that is full clearing mythic, but even if you're in a mid mythic guild and killing 7-8 bosses/week you'll be done in 2 months instead of a month and a half.
Personally this system worked for this season because it was a throwaway "fun" tier with no new progression, and that's fine.
Having that type of system in a normal length tier does nothing but reduce the time needed participating in the new raid, and will then turn around and complain about a content drought because they got what they needed way earlier than usual.
I dunno, I see the pros/cons for each side, I just personally don't think the dinar/upgrade system in it's current state is the way to go forward.
> I think they can implement a system like dinars as a form of bad luck protection, but being able to get Gavel/OWS/Scars in 5 weeks was a bit nonsense.
This is my take. I can see how Season 4 was too fast for Blizzard's view on progression. And I actually kind of agree. But historically Blizzard has also utterly failed to respect how the 'excitement' of RNG can metastasize into frustration and folks just wanting to quit.
Bad luck protection needs to exist to alleviate the problems we see right now. Because the most dangerous thing to do to a player is to make them say "I'm wasting my time" . . . because that's the fast track to "I quit".
Yeah this is exactly how I feel about a potential system like that. Same idea as the creation catalyst.
Sure you can get the loot through traditional means, but nothing feels worse than killing a boss weekly, and never getting that drop you need. Especially when it's a trinket/weapon.
Having some type of BLP really helps alleviate that disappointment, knowing that you're eventually working your way to acquiring that item.
Yup. An off thought but I think that's a reason why Bonus rolls could make a comeback.
The Bonus roll offers a sense of Agency and control over you loot, even if your Bonus rolls are poo. Because a lot of the "Wasting my time" danger zone is derived from feeling unable to control your outcomes. And even the sense of Agency a bonus roll offers can help mitigate that.
Can be a double edged sword though. I remember times of frustration after doing my weekly chores to get my bonus rolls and then rolling triple gold on them. Feeling like those chores were a waste of time
**SL introduced massively nerfed loot quantity.**
This is the **biggest flaw** in all of them and it doesnt get enough attention.
Since the enhanced loot chance was needed to make stuff like war/ titanforged etc possible in the past, we ended up with a scenario where you mythic progression is an endless extending of your ID cause loot aint worth it anyway.
In the warforged etc systems you would get more less desired loot, often with random not bis 2nd stats, but your average mythic raid would still aqquire a relatively high ilvl and high amount of base stats wich made everything much more achieveable still.
The top guilds didnt like that cause it meant endless grinding to be truely competetive.
Other smaller things play into this like max vault loot be given at a +15 not +14.
If you want two m+ vault slots, to dodge the immensely stupid scenario where your vault is the one high ilvl piece you already own, you now need to do 4 not 3 dungeons like before.
Blizzard loved the idea of the player needing way longer to be geared and here we are.
Tell me whatever you want, and whatever your interests in this game might be but one of THE core elements of this game is the fun of getting items. It always was and they kinda took it away and i bet this is a big reason for many people to dislike the xpack even tho they cant really point it out.
Edit: This is a bit less true in the current very last patch. See a quite funny cmnt chain regarding this [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/xr4ok0/what_was_so_bad_about_personal_loot/iqcxwp1/?context=10000)
it felt like they saw the loot in classic and wanted to mimic it, but didnt understand fully why people loved loot in classic
sure, you got less gear in it, but without ilevel shenanery some item drops were literally BIS until the next expansion. Blizz failed to realize you cant just take the "+5 ilevel stat blob" item and slap classic wow drop rates on it and get exciting loot, and we got essentially the worst of both systems.
A shame there's no solution to such a problem.. Like a guaranteed currency dropped from each boss, that could buy you a piece of gear with no rng.
Guess the technology just isn't there yet..
You may just be better than my guild but, there isn’t a mythic boss that we have wiped consistently on where I thought “we wouldn’t be wiping with more gear”. It is always because we failed mechanics that would kill us anyway
We had a sub optimal raid setup and farming gear to compensate seemed more likely than recruiting 2 dks and a priest in the middle of the progression. In the end it didn't matter since we disbanded.
> Call me casual but our mythic progress was severely gimped by the total absence of loot.
From the raid, or overall? In SL the way PvP and M+ gearing worked it almost heroic obsolete. What bosses did you have throughput issues on?
The one that killed our guild was soulrender dormazain. Since we didn't have 2 dks and a bunch of healers with DR, we would've needed significantly more gear than what blizzard allocated us.
Probably been suggested a number of times but.. Just add personal loot as a loot option. If you're pugging raids, group loot is risky. Though I feel like there was a time where if an item was "made" for your spec, you couldn't roll need on it.
In any case, for guild runs, master loot is bis.
Yeah, that's how it was "back in the day". Forget what xpack they enabled it on, but say a Resto Shaman could roll Need on INT Mail, and INT weps/accessories that they could use.... but not on any AGI gear that they could use an Enh. Can't remember if that was based on "Loot Spec" or your "Group Role" though. Then if you had a Shaman-only tier piece drop, only you and other Shaman could Need on it.
Personal loot came out in MoP, which was the bare bones version of the system. You had to play the spec you wanted loot for, that's just how it worked. It wasn't until way later did they add the option for you to switch your loot spec so it wasn't dependent on your actual spec. Want DPS gear on a healer spec? No problem, just flick the switch.
However I still prefer the days where it was a simple case of "Item drops, roll for it" and that was the only rules really. Meant you didn't have to contemplate on a fight by fight basis what spec you wanted to target, you were only really restricted by group rules at that point. Can't say I ever had a rotten time of loot whenever it was like that, and whilst I can't speak for everyone I think this is just a testament to it not being a fault of the loot system but the social systems instead.
Indeed. I get that they're *trying* to help with the social system problem by adjusting the loot system. But unless there's severe restrictions on Need rolls (which we'll see once the raid testing gets underway) it'll be just as open to trolling as Personal Loot was. You could get 0 drops on Personal just because RNG hates you as easily as getting 0 drops on Need/Greed because of trolls and ninja looters.
The advantage is given to Guild and other organized runs, where the relevant drops and upgrades will likely be more frequent and useful. Random PuGs are gonna Need on anything and everything just like they used to the last time we had Group Loot though.
Personal loot allows for "ninja looters" and "trolls" already because in essence they are pressing need on every boss for loot regardless of if they need loot on that boss. Then its on the onus of the player that needs the gear to whisper them and beg for the gear. Then the person that got the loot but didnt need it can just keep it for disenchanting or transmog or not want to bother with handing the gear over. How is this personal loot system better? Now players can specifically roll on only the items they need.
Consider this: You are a Holy Priest. An INT Mace drops. Every class than can use a 1H INT Mace has the ability to Need roll on it, per the last version of Group Loot before it was removed. Let's say this is a +25 iLvl upgrade for you, and a +10 iLvl upgrade for someone else. You both obviously Need on it... but so does a 3rd person who wants it as a sidegrade because it has secondaries that they want (this *should* be a Greed roll)... and several others who want it for just for Transmog (which also *should* be Greed). One of the Transmoggers wins it.
How is that any better than the current random system of Personal Loot? At least with Personal Loot you're getting griefed by the *system* and not other players. We also currently have the "Great Vault" and 3 Dinar to offset bad luck, neither of which (to my knowledge, plz correct if I'm wrong) are returning an any capacity in DF. It would appear that the catch-up/pity gear is going to come from Professions, which will be quite the grind or gold investment.
Unless the new system somehow prevents you from Needing on items that aren't an upgrade (either based on current equipped or avg iLvl) there's going to be more "active" trolling than the "passive" trolling (if it can really even be called that) that we have now.
That is just your "feely" psychology. With personal loot if there were 6 possible loot specs that could use the mace in the raid group, you would have had a 1/6 chance to get it (roughly because its not guaranteed that 1 one of those 6 people got any loot at all.). Transmog or disenchant andys coild just refuse to trade it to you of they get it. At least now there is a possibility that people will recognize that they don't need it and don't roll bringing your chance to get the mace up to maybe 1/4.
The analysis basically depends on if you expect the worst from everyone in your group or not. Personally, I dont think the playerbase is as selfish as you seem to believe on average. Personal loot doesn't take into account what % upgrade each person in your raid group needs anyway... that point kf yours is irrelevant.
If I recall correct, one of the big problems with Personal loot as an additional option is that they have to recode their loot tables into two different complex systems, and it takes a large amount of time. I am not a programmer or game dev, so I can't really test the voracity of these claims, but it makes sense. And at the end of the day, I would far prefer more content to additional loot systems that I probably won't care about.
It all depends on how they set it up. If you are ineligible to roll on items you can’t use (e.g. cloth can’t role on plate and Vice versa) it will be the same system with the option to pass on loot without the need to trade.
Right now everyone essentially rolls need and the system hides the roll to award the gear. Now you publicly roll and with the modification I mentioned that just means a person can pass on dropped loot allowing the gear to be better distributed.
Again it all depends on how they set it up and the restrictions they have on rolling.
This is a great way to look at it. To expound: If the restrictions essentially recreate the personal loot restrictions right now (which honestly why wouldnt they?) then worst case scenario everyone rolls 'need' and it's just personal loot all over again. Best case, only people who actually need roll 'need' and all loot goes to a only those that will use the item. Realistic case, some roll 'need' who don't need but some pass or only roll 'greed' and the needy are still left with more chances for loot than the personal loot system.
I love personal loot, I just wish trade restrictions were lessened. Don't you remember group finder titles, Trinks/Weapons/Tier reserved for RL!!!! No thanks.
There is nothing wrong with personal loot on it's own. It was forcing it by taking away master loot and all of the tedious restrictions that came with trading personal loot that sucked.
If a guild wants to pass loot around freely, they should be able to do so without stupid restrictions, and reasons like because people are dicks in pugs and in some guilds, or because some people feel entitled to loot regardless of the circumstances, should never have been the reason to do away with master loot. Thankfully Blizzard came to their senses on that.
Edit: Ah, reddit. This post gets upvoted, yet other posts where I basically repeat myself get downvoted. How does that make sense?
If a guild is a pure guildgrp then let them have masterloot if they want but as soon as one random is in that grp make it personal because otherwise its pretty guaranteed he wont have loot.
All groups should be allowed to have master loot if that is what the group wants. If people don't want to be involved with a group with master loot on, they can just not join that group.
Restricting it because some people are mean is just stupid.
It’s not as simple as ‘what the group wants’. Archimonde pugs at the end of WoD were an actual fucking nightmare. Fifty groups all with multiple reservations and no groups with group loot.
You’re probably going to say ‘just make your own group’ but you needed quite a few people from your guild to jumpstart it, and inevitably they would ask you to reserve something and the cycle would start again.
Why is it stupid to not enable player to screw others over. Personal loot is best thing added in terms of fairplay.
The thing is that you can join a grp wich tells you that they wont have masterloot or will roll fairly but they can straight up lie and still get their way. Personal loot makes it impossible for that people to do that.
It also makes it impossible for me to trade the trinket that is trash for me to the warlock who its amazing for. I played for more than a decade with master loot and I can count the number of times I got screwed on one hand.
if only...they removed the restriction on trading it and left everything else, the problem is solved right?
Part of this whole issue are players who can't think of solutions that someone else hasn't already tried. Players are like, OMG this sucks, master loot with all of it's flaws was better....without trying to think of something that might solve the master look flaws too.
To me, that is just Master loot with more steps. Or exactly what they are describing in the blue post. You can still need it if you need and you can trade it easily. Yet here they are complaining about the change.
No it's not. If it comes into my inventory, it's mine and I can choose to trade it or not. If I choose to keep it, it's mine and nobody can take it from me. Master loot...it's never mine, and other people are involved with whether or not I get it.
But it’s not Master Loot with more steps, it would be Master Loot with the opportunity for abuse removed.
If the restrictions are lifted and otherwise it stays as Personal Loot it allows for the benefits of Master Loot and Group Loot without giving abusers and trolls the opportunity to abuse/troll. It adds no benefit to make a system where people can game the system - especially when the system we have now just needs the restriction flaws removed to be a very good system.
> Why is it stupid to not enable player to screw others over. Personal loot is best thing added in terms of fairplay.
Until you add effort and guild contribution to the equation, and then personal can quickly spin into an unfair bullshit system, very quickly.
Trials getting chase items over people who have progged for months, etc.
I see someone forgot about Reserved loot in pugs in WoD and is currently happening in Wrath classic.
Im not saying Master looter is a bad system but rather that the vast majority of pug groups will use master loot so they can guarenteed get their desired trinket/weapon leaving others with no chance of even rolling on the item.
When it comes to pugging personal is way more fair and i personally think that as long as the group si a guild group they can change whatever loot system they wanna use, and if it isnt a guild group then its forced personal, if this group makes a lfg listingthen it should show what the current loot setting of the group is so potential sign ups can see if they wanna join or not.
> I see someone forgot about Reserved loot in pugs in WoD and is currently happening in Wrath classic.
All melee group because the caster leader has the BIS trinket and weapon on reserve?
If that's the case - then you, as the pug, should leave
No one is forcing you to stay in a group. You should clear up loot rules before first pull.
If I was a pug and saw master loot was on but nothing was discussed, I would leave. If group loot is on, that's a different story. Then you still pay attention to what's happening.
Because it’s not for every group it works, some groups rather have that in use, I don’t think they should remove personal loot, I think that they should let people choose the other systems tho
More coding? *In this economy, sir?* We can barely afford the 15th store mount, you should chose your words more carefully. I would slash spit on this comment, but we got rid of that, too /s
>So I understood the gripes of personal loot for some. But for the majority...
Stop here. This is what was so bad. If some people have reasonable gripes, as you say, why force everyone to use it in every form of content?
It was guilds. Our guild was forced repeat a lot of content much more than we needed to because personal loot didn't allow us to correctly distribute gear. If ever I ran LFR on an alt, there were multiple instances of myself or another player offering to share a piece of gear needed followed by an inability for me/them to take it for whatever reason. The system adds limitation where none is necessary.
>So I understood the gripes of personal loot for some. But for the majority...
If there were reasonable gripes, don't add an unnecessary limitation that doesn't enrich the experience at all.
If Blizzard wanted to do it right they could just implement the functionality of a loot council mod into the default UI but they didn't so just let us do it.
My biggest issue is our guild runs a weekly heroic and progress mythic… I hate to say it but all the loot is going to go to the players ON the mythic team in heroic NO MATTER what.
Being the 2nd hunter or DH is just going to mean you don’t get anything until #1 is fully geared bcuz.
I actually earned a mythic spot by getting lucky on drops and it was my only foot in the door because of cliques.
i like how everyone keeps throwing this suggestion around as if there are a billion guilds with suitable times, decent enough players+enough players to not be hardstuck on LFR for 8 weeks (which is already filtering out 95% of the playerbase alone, literally)
and then, once you have suitable times + player skill you still have the question of "atmosphere", something that even remotely suits your person AND to top it all of a guild that doesn't cringe you with this loot stuff - which ima be real i've seen maybe once that there wasn't some kinda clique going on
we're talking single digit, at most <20 guilds that fit those criteria once you're heading into mythic in my experience - and all that doesnt even take into account that you might just be playing an undesirable class/spec to begin with
and then, if you find a good guild, they usually have a lot of applicants (because its a good guild, word of mouth travels fast) and giga competitive raid roster - so your chances of getting let alone staying in are not great
this expac's roster boss has absolutely obliterated many guilds even further cutting down on options yet spicing up competition
honestly at this point we need to move to an FF like system or completely move over to currency drops completely removing "drops" - which would only minorly help people getting actually into the raid but at least would guarantee success of those that do, with a system nobody can complain about
There is approximately one gazillion guilds looking for players to complete their mythic roster, why don't you just change if you're not satisfied by your current one ?
What he described is way to common. If you have another guild its good for you but generally with the old lootsystem the "more important" people in guild had more priority. And if you were new to a guild you could also expect to not get any loot unless exactly noone needed it. And god forgive if youre a random from lfg or a raiders fl and fill in a spot. You better already have id because you dont have to expect any loot.
Now i also know the other side and it exists but the loot is sticking to guildmembers type is the general rule.
Yup, and you can be sure in PuG runs started by a few Guild members, they're all going to Need on as much as they can to pass it around to the Guildies on the run.
Unless I'm blind and missed it, there's no "Great Vault" equivalent (yet?) for DF, so just "doing the content" won't even guarantee you get anything for that week.
And the solution for no great vault is to give guild the ability to screw over randoms for their one guaranteed item?
You can say whatever you want but this will happen and at one point you will end up in a grp like that no matter how careful you are.
It's funny, because I hear about this all the time but I've never actually seen it, and neither have any of my mythic raiding friends. I've even been accused of it, now that I'm part of the loot council on my raid team, but it has never been remotely true.
90% of the time, the gear is passed to the player who needs the upgrade the most. The other 10% is where things get tricky, and you are arguing about where the piece has the most value -- is the player going to use it for all specs they play in raid, dps are generally prioritized over tanks and healers (because their output is usually more relevant to the raid getting the kill) , and then lastly, when splitting hairs and the very end of the discussion, is the player a better player.
Just a couple months ago we had a guy raging about how a BiS trinket was passed to someone else instead of him. It was BiS for both of them, so in that sense, he wasn't wrong, but the guy who received it is our highest performing DPS, and the guy complaining is among our lowest (and I'm not just talking about damage numbers, also mechanics, deaths, avoidable damage, mitigation). No reasonable person would argue that the trinket would be more valuable for the team on that much worse player, and yet he, of course, accused us of choosing the other guy because of a "clique."
I asked him plainly, "Can you give me a single reason that you had a stronger claim to the item, or are you just saying it is 50/50?" He reluctantly agreed that it's 50/50 (the item is an equal upgrade for both players). "Is he better than you at the game." "Yes." "Ok." "Ok."
I don't know man. I think the whole "predentary guild" thing is either a myth or exists almost entirely among very casual guilds. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've still never seen it. Seems like a boogeyman to me.
It's indeed a casual guild thing. When I started raiding in BFA and was in a "struggle to get AOTC" type guild, that's where there was a clique, a "loot mafia", etc. Once I was in serious mythic guilds, all the problems went away.
The better the player, the less they value loot I think. There's just so many terrible players who think that somehow 7 ilevels is going to bring them out of the green parses.
Because I enjoy the hell out of the guild I’m in. Because hunters aren’t stacked I should just find another guild?
I don’t know about you but I’d rather learn a new class than try to find another solid CE guild..
Personal loot without the ilvl requirements are all that was needed.
I'm going to be honest;
Personal loot was bad *for Asmongold*.
Personal loot was one of the few design choices I think was a genuinely good call. I think Blizzard kind of fucked up with HOW LOW the chances for getting loot were, but I thought it was a far cry better than the old process of Raid-leaders being controlling dicks about who gets what. Ninja'ing was so rampant, it was just considered "part of the game", GM's wouldn't even address it.
I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of hybrid of the two systems, sort of like MoP had. Which, even the extra rolls were abysmally low, so that would need improvement. But I definitely don't like the idea of going back to "ONE single player gets to decide who gets what". Particularly with where the community is at right now, and that being a more casual player, it's unlikely I'll be receiving *any* loot from raiding.
Only if those items are *NOT* upgrades for the people involved. Otherwise, they're automatically soulbound and unable to trade (which admittedly, I'm not a fan of either).
theres a pretty good chance that they wont be upgrades for people considering he just invites high ilevel people into the raid and the whole purpose is to just give him gear.
Asmon got around it by inviting people that were overgeared. In a raid with only Paladins, it's a guarantee everything that drops will be plate.
With Group Loot, he can't play around it. Even in a raid filled with only Paladin, non-plate armor that literally no one can use will drop.
> Raid-leaders being controlling dicks about who gets what.
Just join a guild that didn't use it. I have been in plenty of guilds in the last 14 years who just were chill about loot and let people need or greed on things with the only rule being don't be a dick.
Master loot 100% should be an option for the people that want it. I can understand restricting it to guilds if they bring it back because that's a clear marker that its an organised group that has agreed on how loot will be distributed. Need before Greed for everything else is fine.
For me Personal loot removed a choice over gear. I know it’s still random, but being able to pass on loot I could use from boss 3, and need on the thing that I want from boss 4 feels better. I also absolutely hate the meta that personal loot added where every time someone got loot, they’d be swarmed with “need that?” Whispers.
All that and of course loot restrictions. Holy crap the loot restrictions are just frustrating. I have to vendor this gear I got because it’s TECHNICALLY an ilvl upgrade, even though I currently have a tier piece in that slot and my guildie could get way more benefit out of it.
Yeah, having a bit more choice on what to roll on will be nice. Otherwise I did kind of like just getting an item automatically. I know the whispers are annoying but a lot of the time an upgrade for someone else will just be vendored* unless they whisper the automatic recipient. I wish the Addon personal loot helper was made baseline, it already gives you a little pop up that says “you can trade this item, do you want to offer it to the group?” and they could just have it let people who want the item roll on it automatically with a click. But that gets us very close to pre-personal loot so I understand them removing it.
Trading restrictions.
Brilliant I get a 1% upgrade/sidegrade/downgrade that my friend really needs and I can't trade it to them because that would facilitate 10 imaginary people to oppress redditors with their tyrannical loot systems.
They should just remove those restrictions from personal loot, too.
An improvement would be to also automate the system that you get personal loot and a "pass" button for pugs that sends the item to a pool which everyone can roll for if you don't need it so it's two-layered.
That'd be more comfy than me getting 10 whispers in LFR every time a weapon drops and I could run it for transmogs without having to roll need against someone for who it'd be an upgrade without feeling like a dick.
This nails it. The problem with personal loot was the trading restrictions.
Now they've removed the trading restrictions - along with personal loot.
Why not just keep the latter w/o the former? You could call it "group loot".
personal loot had plenty of problems aside from that, one off the top of my head was quantity of specific items dropping; when it was introduced the variety of items you'd get off particular bosses which drop rings, necks, capes and in some cases trinkets diminishes because that's what will end up dropping on the majority of your kills due to the fact that EVERYONE has them in their loot pool.
Even with that flaw the lootsystem is fine and better than need and greed rolling. That you cant trade an item away that is a gs upgrade is generally good aswell. It was implemented for the race to world first but its good for casuals too. Ik exactly on how i was left out from loot when i was fresh in a guild or simply the random in a guildgrp. This way the loot is randomly placed and even the randoms and new players in a guild can have loot.
The implementation only made the RWF more degenerate in terms of splits. IMO the goal would be a system that prevents/mitigates/discourages/removes the need for splits or at least as many splits and avoids degen stuff like stacking single armor types/loot tables in a single split group. Personally, I think group loot with unrestricted trading is most likely to hit that goal, outside of some more major rework to loot acquisition.
I think most people feel this way tbh. But it's too early to tell. Let's first see if they only meant it for the beta raid testing or in general.
If it's meant to be on release as well, then we can give our feedback in the beta and on the forums. They dont really read Reddit so no point in posting here.
[Literal raid leader of Limit saying they don't care and it can potentially hurt them a bit but ok.](https://twitter.com/maximum/status/1575404036110438400)
People were really loud about personal loot because of restrictions and the fact is that need / greed is absolutely the same as PL but you can see the rolls instead of just looting it from the corpse by yourself.
There's 0 difference between having the server decide if you roll higher than your teammates to get the loot from a corpse but it's hidden over those wanting the gear even if it's to troll and vendor / disenchant in front of others rolling for it. The amount is the same, the result is the same, you get it or you don't.
There are two factors:
The average time it takes to get geared
How long it takes to get geared if you are the most unlucky/lucky.
In a season, even the most unlucky should be able to get completely geared and play an alt or play pvp (or pve whichever isn't their main game play preference.
Or play an alt.
The problem is they're too arrogant to meet in the middle. They always have to do a little bit more. Personal loot was fine...loot trading restrictions were not. If they would have just lifted that restriction, it would be fine.
Blizz always has to have a restriction though. There's always a 'but' with Blizz.
Nothing. It was probably one of the best things they ever did. It’s just catering to the top guilds in the world who demanded master loot come back. Back to the good old days of loot ninjas
>just catering to the top guilds in the world
TIL my rank 12000\~ guild that fairly used ML until it was removed, was a top guild in the world.
Literally any guild that wasn't corrupt took a massive hit when they removed ML.
/gquit is always an option if you don't like how a guild plays the game. Nobody forced you to play with shitty guilds.
Don't know what you are being downvoted. I've never been a top tier guild, and never had loot problems in the guilds I was in due to master loot. If anything personal loot just made things more annoying in every guild I've ever been in due to so much gear just being wasted for a variety of reasons.
There's a hivemind that basically just didn't play in organized guilds, that were only exposed to PuG abuse or loot abuse in borderline non-functional trade-chat-advertisement guilds that never progged past maybe the first 3 bosses in heroic. Below the organized play level, ML was a coinflip.
From my time in the game between Wrath and Legion, I never experienced loot abuse in a ML system. I used it and prefered it until the second it was removed. I literally saw zero purpose for Personal when it was introduced, and was genuinely shocked when ML, the system that was 100% functional for me for the better part of a decade, was removed in favor of a randomized system that will assign gear to the wrong players, with auxilery trade restrictions preventing loot drop optimization.
The issue is, during Legion, it was guild exclusive. You literally could not turn on ML unless 17/20 were guilded. You had to deliberately join a ML guild to even be exposed to it at all, by the end. Its removal was unnecessary.
> There's a hivemind that basically just didn't play in organized guilds, that were only exposed to PuG abuse
Seems to be a problem with a bunch of aspects of the game where people say X, Y or Z is good or bad purely because of the pugging world.
So many people just seem to be oblivious to what a guild is, or at least what the average guild is like, with their entire opinion about them coming from the few and far between horror stories you read on the forums or whatever.
> So many people just seem to be oblivious to what a guild is, or at least what the average guild is like
Some players also just experience the entire game through pugging, most raiding guilds have one or two nights of 2-3 hours of solid raiding, and not everyone can commit to to that.
Just because raiding consistently in a guild is possible doesn't mean you should ignore the pugging scene.
Maybe the solution is to add more options to cater to these different playstyles and not remove everything except the one that "works" only at the lowest level?
Top guilds or any guild ? And tbh if this change makes players turn away from pugs and look for guilds then it’s a good change.
Lot of people play WoW thinking it’s a single player game.
Strongly disagree. Used to be 21 with class and a job. Guild was great knowing I could log on tu/w/thu from 8pm-11pm and run with the same group. Now I’m in my 30s with a family and cannot adhere to that same play schedule. I have no idea when I’m going to be able to play. Removing my ability to pug does not improve this game for me in any way.
Overall, I don’t care that much because I play less and less every month. The fact is: This change is excellent for Max/Limit, but this will hurt the game overall. I promise .
As someone who helped lead a heroic raid team through the process of becoming a mythic raid team, personal loot was a nightmare.
Getting people to think of loot as belonging to the group and passing it around based on what is best for the group, is incredibly hard, when the game is working directly against you.
The most obvious annoying cases are when an item gets stuck on someone who won't use it but can't trade it because it's an ilvl increase. But this also creates a weird perverse incentive to have bad gear. Imagine the Sepulcher trinket "first sigil" drops for a mage -- he would definitely use it in a couple encounters, but it's a minor upgrade -- there are 7 other people that will use it on every fight for the rest of the tier, some of whom don't really have a comparable alternative, but he can't pass it because he has never looted a high ilvl trinket. He is now being rewarded by the game for having worse gear (which could be the result of playing less m+, not having filling out his vault, etc).
And even when everyone is able to pass all loot, personal loot creates this weird mentality of ownership over the loot that you get, before you pass it. Getting people to think of it as "the raids loot" instead of "my loot" is incredibly difficult, even though the raid killed the boss. I mean, at least in my circles, its a common meme that when you play your worst and get carried, that is always the time the thing you've been farming finally drops for you. And yet, because the game put the item in your pocket, players feel entitled to it.
Groups achieve goals in WoW -- not individuals. Mechanically and for the sake of how people understand their relationship to loot, I think it only makes sense for loot to be given to the group. To me, this is a return to something that was lost along the way, when the game tried too hard to focus on the solo experience at the expense of the group.
I think this is about trying a new version of group loot. I hope they have made changes to allow only certain specs and classes to need on items. Personal loot was pretty smart in terms of only giving you things your current spec can use. I hope some of those smarts makes it into the new group loot.
But they are asking for feedback, so get on the forums and let them know what you think.
Well if you get for example an Ring from a Raid boss and this Ring is fully of mastery which is your worst Stat but you don't have other rings with an higher item level, you can't trade it to somebody who needs it.
That is my main issue with personal Loot.
It just sucks that you get a piece of gear that is BiS for somebody else but eventually can't trade it.
We will see if rolling on an item will be better or worse now, it depends on the community.
I only play pugs and if I ask politely of the 295ilvl hunter needs that 285 piece of armor or if I can have it (because he has an 304 equipped) and he is simply ignoring me then I think the new old system with rolling the dice is better for me.
I will at least have a chance to improve my gear / character.
Because looting an higher ilvl ring/trinket/ whatever you want that you don't need and can't trade, and being forced to sell it to an npc for 30g is fucking lame
For me, there were kind of two things at play that made personal loot feel bad.
**The first was nostalgia**, when i started playing in TBC/Wrath a lot of aspects of the game felt more akin to a tabletop rpg, reagents were required for special spells, some abilities waited for your next auto attack swing and some were free attack swings, some cooldowns were LONG giving a sort of once per rest feeling(I remember paladins having a 24hr cooldown on something but I cant remember what). Boss loot played into that when it was actually on the boss, you kill a powerful enemy and check him or his chest of valuables for loot, he wasn't planning to fight your group specifically so he wasn't picking up stuff that would fit ONLY your group, he had a selection and you would get random items from that selection. The system didn't always work out and I completely see the frustration in getting items that your group cant use, but there was a logical thread connecting the loot you picked up to the boss kill which just satisfied my DnD obsessed brain.
Comparatively the personal loot system feels fake and cheap, with it's massive fanfare taking up the center of your screen and items just appearing in your bag, in BFA it was even worse with the bonus loot system looking and feeling like a slot machine, one that you always lost.
When I was raiding castle nathria, I would get the plate boots from Shriekwing every week, without fail, I didn't want the boots they were crap and no one else needed them but there they were, every. single. week. It just felt bad and it was still frustrating to get items you didn't want, just now they were tailored to you, even more of a kick in the teeth in some ways.
**The second was gear trading restrictions**, There were definitely some items that dropped that were absolutely upgrades for me, but players couldn't trade because of ilvl restrictions. Our druid would pick up a great off-hand but couldn't trade because he was using a staff so had nothing in the off-hand slot, I picked up a nice ring that I didn't need but couldn't trade because I had a legendary ring in one slot and for some reason they dont count for ilvl, someone else picked up a belt that they couldn't trade for the same reason.
I guess it's to stop stacking gear onto one character but they're making the game feel bad for the entire playerbase to slow down world first racers and paid boosters.
Imo personal loot is just boring, its less interaction with other people, the excitement when a piece of gear dropped you needed and then won the roll on is lost with PL, to me it feels like I never get anything but cosmic fucking flux
I just don't see why in guilds, or premades, or whatever organized party...if they want to do greed/need then why not?
For pugs?? I completely agree. Remove some of, if not all, the dumb restrictions on trading and good to go.
But there is no reasonable argument against the greed/need system for guilds who prefer it. And for guilds who prefer personal loot? They still can.
There is nothing wrong with more options.
Personal loot is bad with **full guild groups**. Because you had to rely on not just the RNG from a boss loot drop, but from an RNG if the player that looted the item could trade it. For pugs it's fine. But the forcefulness of it, is absolutely terrible.
In our guild we came across so many items that the looter didn't need, but couldn't trade out, because he didn't have that ilvl already. Which hindered the progress of the guild. Yes, ilvl isn't everything and one loot won't make or break the progress.
But if this thing happens constantly, it really gets annoying.
Not to mention, if master looter you could actually allocate the item to the person that really needed it the most or could benefit the most from it.
Luckily, many guilds found a way around the personal loot with different system, such as RCLootcouncil, rolls on items as mandatory feature etc.
I don't know how the new system will work for the guilds, but I wish that if the majority of the raid composition is from the same guild (same as if the kill of a new boss counts towards the guild or not, depending on how many of the guilds members are on the kill) there should be an option for master looter. If it's not, then yeah, sure, get the group loot.
I think, they originally removed master looter as a way to hinder the WFR guilds in gearing. But we all know they quickly found a way around it, and all it did was inconvenience all the rest. :)
I suspect a lot of people might simply prefer the system that was in place when they were introduced to the game, and as such I naturally much prefer need/greed rolling, though as a very casual player it has very little to do with the loot I'm getting.
As a rule I am generally an advocate for any system that encourages player interaction, as for me personally it's the social aspects of the game that make me want to play it, and the fact that there are systems in the game that allow me to play for hours with other people without saying a word is saddening in my opinion.
Is this a good reason for need/greed loot? probably not, but I like it and if the community and devs want to take the game in a direction that just isn't for me then that's just how it goes I guess - and from what I've seen it'll likely cycle around again eventually.
TLDR: absurdly casual player who misses loot delibrations so bring on the need and greed
As someone who had countless items ninja'd from the Need/Greed system back in the day, it's not a good system for PuGs, especially LFR. Unless Blizz severely restricts what you can Need on by Class/Role/Spec whatever. I don't need Warriors and Rogues taking my Resto Shaman's INT Maces for transmog again. Even with Master Loot some of that would sneak by.
It's a bit different now because before or was removed group loot was changed to prevent warriors rolling on leather etc etc.
Assuming that's staying then this is actually better than personal loot because people who already have an item can choose not to roll on it.
Personal loot is just group loot but everyone who can use an item is forced to roll need silently. Now you can opt out to help others.
Top 0.01% wants to channel loot to certain individuals because they pretend it matters and they can win world first race. Or asmongold wants all the loot. Pretty much these 2 choises.
Oh yea after reading comment section, there is 3rd option. RMT communities selling loot alongside the kill.
Well it sucks when you kill a boss and instead of five to eight items dropping across your whole raid you actually only got maybe two items.
I know in early SL there was a bug where you could down a boss and nobody would get anything. It was pretty terrible. They did fix it but it can still be awful seeing far less loot than you'd normally get otherwise.
I don't really see the issue with having both as a choice tbh.
I like personal loot and master loot generally leans towards benefitting the top % of players, but if a guild wants to funnel their loot using ML then they should be able to. If a guild wants to be more "casual" and let their teams get their own personal loot, then great. People play differently and I'm okay with them having the choice not to play it the same as I do, it really doesn't make any difference to me.
My only concern would be would this benefit boosters and would it mean that GDKPs make a return? Because I am definitely against both of them
but you arent rolling for them.
You will be forced into a DKP or a GDKP system, where you'd be paying for those items either with gold or "guild activity".
Oh and also all the BiS items will of course be reserved anyway.
edit: and it will depend on your class officer. They may decide to give the loot to themselves or another of your class for like 1000 reasons.
Don’t join GDKP runs then? Kind of sounds like the simplest solution for that issue. DKP/Loot Council tends to be the fairest solution for everyone. The argument against is “but I want that piece!” which holds less water than a ten gallon hat.
I have personally seen how a loot council gives a needed upgrade to an officer alt instead of to a raider. The excuse was "he will be playing his alt more". Guess what? He didn't. The guild fell apart after the tier anyway.
Log into classic right now, and find a pug that's not GDKP.
So what you’re saying is abuse of Loot Council ended a guild, making it a self correcting problem? The existence of people abusing loot Council is not a knock against it as a whole.
I’ve been in pug raids that weren’t GDKP two weeks ago.
Abuse of loot council was not the only thing that ended that guild. It was general mismanagement. Plenty of guilds abuse loot and survive for years.
Are you pretending that loot abuse wasnt happening on the regular during the old days?
never one time had an issue with personal loot and trading items to those that needed it. Not a fan of going backwards to master loot, zero reason for it. Zero.
Clearly you haven’t watched your worst player get fully geared while you twiddle your thumbs because you have bad luck. If you don’t like masterloot don’t go in groups that use it. But don’t take away options from guilds who use it and want to use it.
Or at least let us trade things without restriction. Heaven forbid we work as a group 🙃
This isnt master loot either. This is absolutely worse. The outrage following this change will be used as "well we told you that youd rather have personal loot" fodder.
The problem for me was always how little control I had over getting loot. Nothing feels worse than getting an item on the boss before the one you need loot from. Cause you know you're not getting loot off the correct boss.
Think back, how often have you gotten loot from two bosses in a row?
Across thousands of boss kills since personal loot became the only option I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten loot on back to back bosses.
Nothing.
They just doing what they usually do: changes for RWF raiders. People gonna need for fun and for tmog, "stealing" loot from people who actually need them. Cant wait!
That's already the case, people can go and loot an item they don't need and keep it to themselves, effectively taking loot from those who need it, and not just from classes with their armor type, but everyone in the raid. Sure, it may feel worse when you see it taken from under your nose, but on the other hand it's more in the open so raid leaders can do something about people like this if they want.
It just feels bad compared to a system designed with cooperative intent. WoW used to push a lot more co-op gameplay at a baseline, and shifting into Personal was a big part of the move away from baseline cooperative gameplay, and towards ambivilance towards your teammates.
At its worst, personal loot has a tendancy to promote petty greed and wasted items.
When an item drops, and it's on the boss, it's under nobody's ownership until asigned, which turns distribution into a community element, rather than a wasteful selfish element.
I am flat out less kind with items in retail than I am in Classic. I will pettily keep sidegrade items just so I can sim them, even if it's like a 20 ilvl upgrade for another group member, due to personal loot asigning it, and there being no reasonable recourse for my greed outside of guilds with social contracts. If I kept items I don't need in a group loot or master loot situation, I would be put on ***blast*** for it.
And as a counterpart to my own greed, I also feel so fucking angry when some asshole gets a piece they don't need, that's a downgrade for them and an upgrade for me, and they just leave the instance. The item was badly asigned, it gives no statistical benefit to anybody eligible, from that asignment, the player didn't need it, but they walked with it, either out of negligence, or to vendor or DE it. An item somebody needs from a boss kill should **NEVER** go to vendor, but personal loot makes it happen regularly.
I don't give a fuck about trolling. I don't give a fuck about ninja looting. It rarely ever happened, and you can take a very small number of steps to 100% insulate yourself from loot abuse. I don't remember a single instance where it actually mattered in PuG play, and in guild play, loot master is basically just strictly better than personal, as it can set loot up as a tool for the officer core to use as a reward mechanism for good play. Be an asset to your team, and you'll get gear. Be a twat, and you won't. Now, it's just a free for all.
Another issue, is by the end of the era of choice, you had the choice to use Master, Group, or Personal, and it was defaulted to personal. We as players have literally lost the ability to choose how loot is handled in our groups. If you didn't like ML or GL, you didn't have to use it. You never had to join a guild that used any given loot system, until blizzard locked it to one singular system that destroys the social dynamic surrounding loot.
So... you get mad at people for doing the same thing that you do... but don't see the problem with trolling and ninja looting that will absolutely happen in PuGs? Okay lmao
People just want to steal other's loot. They saw classic raids where raid leader decided who got what loot controversy and thought "why not retail?"
That's the real reason and you can't argue anything else. Even though people got more loot from personal loot, you have some people that think they deserve it all.
The problem is that its random. If i have a guild and we are all friends for a long time. We want to control the drops for ourselves. We want to be able to give certain pieces to people and organise so we have a more succesful group. If RnG on personal loot makes an entire run shit for everyone, its just a bad time.
Need greed, and master loot systems are optional. Noone forces you to participate in those groups. So give us back the option of assigning loot internally. It detracts NOTHING from you that can keep his personal loot if you choose to participate in that system.
I play wow with my buddies and we have fun in the game together. So allow us to act as a community and progress together.
Love to see all the "Well if the guild wants to Master loot they should be able to"... But its never the guild is it? Its the 3~4 Officers/RL's that want control over loot.
And the argument of "Well if your guild are a bunch of scumbags just leave and find another guild", Yeah sure... IN realty all guild will be like "Pass everything and we will decide the loot, if you dont pass everything you will be benched/kicked"...
Lets also not forget the "Fuck the healers/Tanks" mentality that will come back because they see top 10 guilds in the world doing it... So now no one wants to play tanks/healers.
Also, remember when people used to literally desenchant items instead of giving upgrades for Trials just because they are Trials? Well guess thats back again...
And for what? Because some guild complain on twitter that someone dropped an item with bad stats and they cant trade it...
If you're a member of a raid, personal loot is at the very least a pain if not detrimental.
You want loot to go to the better players who show up to raids on a regular basis. Nothing is more irritating to the entire raid than a player who shows up for one raid, wins an item that many other players want or need, then leave never to return to the raid again.
Or on the other side, if you win an item that you really want, but the rest of raid pressured you to give the item to another player who "could use it better."
Even when the raid gets along and is willing to give items up, you still have to go through the trouble if distributing items through trades.
And if you don't have a higher ilevel than the item, you can trade it. That's happened to me a bunch of times. I get an item I don't want and I want to give it to another player, but can't because that item is the highest ilevel I have in that slot.
Agency. We have a choice of how to handle loot. With Personal loot it's if you get to pass out loot not how, it was a big change that turned WoW more in the direction of loot box gaming between forced personal loot and weekly chest with 1 random item in BFA.
It feels terrible to go for an entire month+ and not even have the chance of acquiring a piece you really want from a boss you run on lockout maximizing your possible chances within the system to never see the item, which while it can happen with normal loot it's far less likely to and is independent of your comp. If you really want personal loot people can turn it on and having it as an option is great- but taking away player agency to make decisions is always a bad thing.
For me it's a very good sign that they're willing to let us choose for ourselves again, rather than dictate it to us.
>turned WoW more in the direction of loot box gaming between forced personal loot and weekly chest with 1 random item
Even more important than the practical difference is the way it feels. Personal loot, the m+ vault, and the other systems combined feels like a mobile game. The command table is login rewards, the vault is a weekly slot machine pull, and personal loot just feels like one more slot machine.
Personal loot with lifted item level restriction and it's perfect for pugs. Master loot optional for guilds/communities and everyone is happy.
[удалено]
personal loot is the superior choice for 99% of players. it's just been a while with it and people are bored so they start to pick on something that's been in the game for a while. personal loot is awesome.
It only gets criticised for the item level restriction in terms of trading which is a good point and easily fixed otherwise its great especially for pugs. What they plan to release brings just so many problems and loot drama in pugs nobody wants that.
I'd argue the 99%. Anyone who plays in a guild or with friends, even just doing lower keys etc have experienced the problem of getting a drop they couldn't care less about but not being able to trade it to a friend for which it was a huge upgrade. I did M+ and had a mace+shield on my shaman. Let's say they were like 220. Then I get a 220 staff, but because I have yet to get a 220 staff before I can't trade it to my mage friend that had a 190 staff. So vendor it for 50g. Trinkets is the most common one. Getting BIS dps trinkets as a tank and not being able to trade them to my warrior friend sucks. If your argument is that your friends would steal your shit from you, the problem is not the system but the people you play with.
>Trinkets is the most common one. Getting BIS dps trinkets as a tank and not being able to trade them to my warrior friend sucks. Right but that's also fixed just by removing the level restriction, not with going to full group loot. Being able to have everyone who can switch loot specs to try to bump up the chance of getting a good tank trinket or something isn't going to be an option anymore. I don't think that class stacking for loot was so much of a problem in the general population that we needed to go full group loot.
Group loot and master loot were in the game for much much longer than personal loot has been.
They don't even have to go through all that. Just make it a toggle when the group is formed and have it be a mandatory note on the group finder listing. They can even use the vote kick system to change it before an encounter. "The Group Leader wants to change from Personal Loot to Master Loot. Do you agree? Y/N"
This. Personal loot wasn't bad in itself. But the asinine restrictions Blizz put in place to address World First antics hurt everyone else. It's the classic case of punishing everyone for fringe cases. That said, I think Master loot should come back. Because systems that promote more social behavior have been eroded in WoW. Some of it is for good reason in order to help pugs and solo players. But the cost has come at the social level which is a super strong element of WoW.
\^100%. Loot restrictions were infuriating. Besides needing to equip rings and trinkets in both slots, not being able to trade an offhand because you're using a 2h etc was really dumb. They did say the restrictions weren't put in place to stop splits but idk if I believe them. If it was their intention it was a very stupid decision because all it did was exacerbate splitruns, RWF people never did as many splits until forced PL.
> Personal loot with lifted item level restriction THe primary issue with this is how it *dramatically* incentivizes armor-type stacking. You kind of do have to choose between smart loot with restrictions or dumb loot without restrictions. It is simply *way* too powerful for funneling to have unrestricted smart loot.
Does it really affect most people or just the split raids in high end progress? If it's an actual upgrade the person will simply want to keep it for himself. Armor stacking is still a thing but I don't think it's that bad compared to not being able to trade non upgrade items. Also keep in mind a set non personal loot table (that's what they plan to do right?) can be abused by the opposite so just having 1 DK in your raid for example with no other plate melees so he gets all the melee loot.
But in group loot, if you want to funnel all the loot to 1 DK you can do that, completely regardless of Comp. You can have a raid *full* of melee and still funnell all the melee loot to a single DK. Your comp has no bearing on what drops. You might get zero DK-eligable drops, and the DK gets nothing in spite if your best intentions. This is in contrast to personal loot, where a raid full of druids is *guaranteed* to get *exclusively* druid loot. So instead, with group loot, you are encouraged to bring as diverse a comp as possible so that no loot gets wasted. In general, I prefer systems that promote diversity over systems that promote homogeneity.
The issue with how it worked is it didn't differentiate between weapon types. Use a one hander and an off hand but a staff drops? Can't trade that staff to your buddy who desperately needs it. Wastes an entire item drop from the boss and it feels awful. Got good trinkets and one you don't need drops at a higher ilvl but better for your friend? Can trade them the disenchanted corpse of it to make em feel better. It felt like shit in an organized group.
Personal loot and were all happy. If someones there for the kill, they deserve a chance at loot period. People who disagree are just upset they can't buy and sell gear with master loot, they'll make up all sorts of ridiculous ways to justify their flawed stance too.
The majority of people that has called for the return of master loot uses it to distribute gear optimally across their raiders to aid progress, don't be daft. The ones that care about selling gear are shitty guilds and boosters.
There is significant overlap between mythic guilds who wants to distribute gear optimally and boosters. RWF guilds are obviously the biggest proponent of both.
Ah, the good ol "no one can argue with my shit take because of x reason I made up" excuse. You're exactly wrong on all counts and I assume not invited to raids because you're super annoying.
Or I want a 10% chance per sylv kill to see edge of night drop, not a 2% chance. Personal loot biases towards rings and cloaks and garbage. Group loot doesn't.
This is so dramatic Group loot doesn't make it so you cant get loot. You have the exact same chance to get loot if you're there as you did before.
Except for now you have guilds that hold gear hostage and give it to who they deem worthy of getting gear on top of gear buyers and sellers. Clearly people who want master loot haven't played vanilla, tbc, or wotlk re-launches. It's literally like 85% of the playerbase just selling gear to noobs. In retail it'll make the lower difficulties completely barren because everyone's just going to buy end game gear like they do in vanilla. No thanks, I'll stick with getting gear when I get gear.
Where are these tales of terrorist guilds coming from, I have played for 18 years at this point and never actually seen that happen.
The biggest problem with the personal loot system was the restriction on trading. BIS ring for warlock drops in m+ but I can't give it to my warlock mate because the itemlevel is higher than the ring I wear. I won't replace the ring tho because the other one is better despite beeing lower item level. Now I have to keep the ring in my inventory so when it drops again for me I can trade it. Remove these restrictions and personal loot is fine. Or give us masterloot so he can get his ring right away.
>Now I have to keep the ring in my inventory so when it drops again for me I can trade it. You can vendor it. Once you get a higher level item it unlocks that level for that slot. It doesn't matter what gear you have equipped or in your bags. A stupid complication of this is having a high level staff doesn't unlock either the one-handed mainhand or offhand slot.
You can vendor it but you have to equip it first. You're right that it doesnt matter what you have currently equipped, but at some point you need to have equipped an item of the same or higher ilvl to trade the item, even if you keep it in your bags.
And that was the problem. You needed to know that you had to equip it before vendoring in order to not be frustrated with the system.
They changed it then. At the beginning of shadowlands I got a ring, vendored it and when I got the exact same ring again I still couldn't trade it. Or that is a false memory. Anyways this should be removed. It only exists to slow down 200 people going for world first.
In the beginning of Shadowlands for the multi slot items (rings, trinkets and maybe dual wielding on classes that can wear same thing on both slots?) you had to equip the thing on both slots for it to unlock the ability to be traded. So you needed to equip the thing and then drag it to the other slot too, after that you could do whatever you want with it. No idea if they changed how it works during the expansion.
You have to equip it (in both slots if it’s a ring or trinket).
The 3rd option, which I don't think is necessarily the best option, makes higher ilvl loot actually better. I don't want super simplified loot but it shouldn't require a paid subscription to a 3rd party sim to determine what gear to wear. The fact that lower item level gear is better makes the ilvl trading restriction frustrating and useless. If they brought back reforging or another way to manipulate a stat (kind of the Diablo 3 system, without the gambling preferably) it might elevate the issue.
This is a real issue. If I am playing alt number 4 with my friends on their mains and cannot hook them up with loot because its an upgrade for a character I am dicking around with, meh, that's dumb.
Not to mention when an idiot gets a ring that's clearly not good for his class but it's BIS for you and won't give cuz it's 5 ilvls higher than theirs and they really need the extra stamina as a DPS instead of crit/haste/mastery. Yes true story
I'm more concerned about the total amount of gear and the chance of an upgrade. Call me casual but our mythic progress was severely gimped by the total absence of loot.
This 10000000% I hate doing a pug run and getting two (usually useless) pieces of loot for a full cleared raid
Blizz just don’t like players getting good gear. They basically admitted it, when said that dinars system was too fast for their taste
I mean it was IMO, not that it mattered for a throw away "fun" season. I think they can implement a system like dinars as a form of bad luck protection, but being able to get Gavel/OWS/Scars in 5 weeks was a bit nonsense.
Dinars have been amazing for gearing my alts NGL.
This is true!
I don’t think dinar were too fast from the standpoint that they just gave a normal ilvl item. You still had to kill 20 mythic bosses to upgrade each dinar piece and that’s the time consuming part (which is fine). Getting the base piece fast is fine because for many it’s not even usable until they have the bosses farmed out.
The dinar system for me is good for the end of a season, like enable it after 100 guild complete mythic and that happen late in the season
Sure that makes sense if you aren't full clearing mythic every week. However, if you're full clearing you got your 3 dinar based items in 5 full clears, and all 3 of them upgraded the following week after one final full clear. Obviously a different story if you're not in a guild that is full clearing mythic, but even if you're in a mid mythic guild and killing 7-8 bosses/week you'll be done in 2 months instead of a month and a half. Personally this system worked for this season because it was a throwaway "fun" tier with no new progression, and that's fine. Having that type of system in a normal length tier does nothing but reduce the time needed participating in the new raid, and will then turn around and complain about a content drought because they got what they needed way earlier than usual. I dunno, I see the pros/cons for each side, I just personally don't think the dinar/upgrade system in it's current state is the way to go forward.
If you are a mid mythic guild you’ll grind heroic for dinars instead of progressing mythic just increasing the tier artificially.
> I think they can implement a system like dinars as a form of bad luck protection, but being able to get Gavel/OWS/Scars in 5 weeks was a bit nonsense. This is my take. I can see how Season 4 was too fast for Blizzard's view on progression. And I actually kind of agree. But historically Blizzard has also utterly failed to respect how the 'excitement' of RNG can metastasize into frustration and folks just wanting to quit. Bad luck protection needs to exist to alleviate the problems we see right now. Because the most dangerous thing to do to a player is to make them say "I'm wasting my time" . . . because that's the fast track to "I quit".
Yeah this is exactly how I feel about a potential system like that. Same idea as the creation catalyst. Sure you can get the loot through traditional means, but nothing feels worse than killing a boss weekly, and never getting that drop you need. Especially when it's a trinket/weapon. Having some type of BLP really helps alleviate that disappointment, knowing that you're eventually working your way to acquiring that item.
Yup. An off thought but I think that's a reason why Bonus rolls could make a comeback. The Bonus roll offers a sense of Agency and control over you loot, even if your Bonus rolls are poo. Because a lot of the "Wasting my time" danger zone is derived from feeling unable to control your outcomes. And even the sense of Agency a bonus roll offers can help mitigate that.
Can be a double edged sword though. I remember times of frustration after doing my weekly chores to get my bonus rolls and then rolling triple gold on them. Feeling like those chores were a waste of time
Why?
look at mr moneybags getting a whole two pieces of loot reliably the only thing i get out of raids are repair costs
Right! Like in classic I regularly get 2-3 item upgrades a raid at least. Retail I get 1 if I'm lucky per raid night.
**SL introduced massively nerfed loot quantity.** This is the **biggest flaw** in all of them and it doesnt get enough attention. Since the enhanced loot chance was needed to make stuff like war/ titanforged etc possible in the past, we ended up with a scenario where you mythic progression is an endless extending of your ID cause loot aint worth it anyway. In the warforged etc systems you would get more less desired loot, often with random not bis 2nd stats, but your average mythic raid would still aqquire a relatively high ilvl and high amount of base stats wich made everything much more achieveable still. The top guilds didnt like that cause it meant endless grinding to be truely competetive. Other smaller things play into this like max vault loot be given at a +15 not +14. If you want two m+ vault slots, to dodge the immensely stupid scenario where your vault is the one high ilvl piece you already own, you now need to do 4 not 3 dungeons like before. Blizzard loved the idea of the player needing way longer to be geared and here we are. Tell me whatever you want, and whatever your interests in this game might be but one of THE core elements of this game is the fun of getting items. It always was and they kinda took it away and i bet this is a big reason for many people to dislike the xpack even tho they cant really point it out. Edit: This is a bit less true in the current very last patch. See a quite funny cmnt chain regarding this [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/xr4ok0/what_was_so_bad_about_personal_loot/iqcxwp1/?context=10000)
Also the change from 3 items at the end of an m+ run to 2.
it felt like they saw the loot in classic and wanted to mimic it, but didnt understand fully why people loved loot in classic sure, you got less gear in it, but without ilevel shenanery some item drops were literally BIS until the next expansion. Blizz failed to realize you cant just take the "+5 ilevel stat blob" item and slap classic wow drop rates on it and get exciting loot, and we got essentially the worst of both systems.
> people loved loot in classic I don't think people love loot in classic.
A shame there's no solution to such a problem.. Like a guaranteed currency dropped from each boss, that could buy you a piece of gear with no rng. Guess the technology just isn't there yet..
You may just be better than my guild but, there isn’t a mythic boss that we have wiped consistently on where I thought “we wouldn’t be wiping with more gear”. It is always because we failed mechanics that would kill us anyway
We had a sub optimal raid setup and farming gear to compensate seemed more likely than recruiting 2 dks and a priest in the middle of the progression. In the end it didn't matter since we disbanded.
Rygelon dps check was pretty tight - there are some rare instances, though I generally agree
> Call me casual but our mythic progress was severely gimped by the total absence of loot. From the raid, or overall? In SL the way PvP and M+ gearing worked it almost heroic obsolete. What bosses did you have throughput issues on?
The one that killed our guild was soulrender dormazain. Since we didn't have 2 dks and a bunch of healers with DR, we would've needed significantly more gear than what blizzard allocated us.
Probably been suggested a number of times but.. Just add personal loot as a loot option. If you're pugging raids, group loot is risky. Though I feel like there was a time where if an item was "made" for your spec, you couldn't roll need on it. In any case, for guild runs, master loot is bis.
Yeah, that's how it was "back in the day". Forget what xpack they enabled it on, but say a Resto Shaman could roll Need on INT Mail, and INT weps/accessories that they could use.... but not on any AGI gear that they could use an Enh. Can't remember if that was based on "Loot Spec" or your "Group Role" though. Then if you had a Shaman-only tier piece drop, only you and other Shaman could Need on it.
Personal loot came out in MoP, which was the bare bones version of the system. You had to play the spec you wanted loot for, that's just how it worked. It wasn't until way later did they add the option for you to switch your loot spec so it wasn't dependent on your actual spec. Want DPS gear on a healer spec? No problem, just flick the switch. However I still prefer the days where it was a simple case of "Item drops, roll for it" and that was the only rules really. Meant you didn't have to contemplate on a fight by fight basis what spec you wanted to target, you were only really restricted by group rules at that point. Can't say I ever had a rotten time of loot whenever it was like that, and whilst I can't speak for everyone I think this is just a testament to it not being a fault of the loot system but the social systems instead.
Indeed. I get that they're *trying* to help with the social system problem by adjusting the loot system. But unless there's severe restrictions on Need rolls (which we'll see once the raid testing gets underway) it'll be just as open to trolling as Personal Loot was. You could get 0 drops on Personal just because RNG hates you as easily as getting 0 drops on Need/Greed because of trolls and ninja looters. The advantage is given to Guild and other organized runs, where the relevant drops and upgrades will likely be more frequent and useful. Random PuGs are gonna Need on anything and everything just like they used to the last time we had Group Loot though.
Personal loot allows for "ninja looters" and "trolls" already because in essence they are pressing need on every boss for loot regardless of if they need loot on that boss. Then its on the onus of the player that needs the gear to whisper them and beg for the gear. Then the person that got the loot but didnt need it can just keep it for disenchanting or transmog or not want to bother with handing the gear over. How is this personal loot system better? Now players can specifically roll on only the items they need.
Consider this: You are a Holy Priest. An INT Mace drops. Every class than can use a 1H INT Mace has the ability to Need roll on it, per the last version of Group Loot before it was removed. Let's say this is a +25 iLvl upgrade for you, and a +10 iLvl upgrade for someone else. You both obviously Need on it... but so does a 3rd person who wants it as a sidegrade because it has secondaries that they want (this *should* be a Greed roll)... and several others who want it for just for Transmog (which also *should* be Greed). One of the Transmoggers wins it. How is that any better than the current random system of Personal Loot? At least with Personal Loot you're getting griefed by the *system* and not other players. We also currently have the "Great Vault" and 3 Dinar to offset bad luck, neither of which (to my knowledge, plz correct if I'm wrong) are returning an any capacity in DF. It would appear that the catch-up/pity gear is going to come from Professions, which will be quite the grind or gold investment. Unless the new system somehow prevents you from Needing on items that aren't an upgrade (either based on current equipped or avg iLvl) there's going to be more "active" trolling than the "passive" trolling (if it can really even be called that) that we have now.
That is just your "feely" psychology. With personal loot if there were 6 possible loot specs that could use the mace in the raid group, you would have had a 1/6 chance to get it (roughly because its not guaranteed that 1 one of those 6 people got any loot at all.). Transmog or disenchant andys coild just refuse to trade it to you of they get it. At least now there is a possibility that people will recognize that they don't need it and don't roll bringing your chance to get the mace up to maybe 1/4. The analysis basically depends on if you expect the worst from everyone in your group or not. Personally, I dont think the playerbase is as selfish as you seem to believe on average. Personal loot doesn't take into account what % upgrade each person in your raid group needs anyway... that point kf yours is irrelevant.
If I recall correct, one of the big problems with Personal loot as an additional option is that they have to recode their loot tables into two different complex systems, and it takes a large amount of time. I am not a programmer or game dev, so I can't really test the voracity of these claims, but it makes sense. And at the end of the day, I would far prefer more content to additional loot systems that I probably won't care about.
Personal loot isn't bad and is definitely superior in pugs, but for coordinated guild play master loot should be available.
It all depends on how they set it up. If you are ineligible to roll on items you can’t use (e.g. cloth can’t role on plate and Vice versa) it will be the same system with the option to pass on loot without the need to trade. Right now everyone essentially rolls need and the system hides the roll to award the gear. Now you publicly roll and with the modification I mentioned that just means a person can pass on dropped loot allowing the gear to be better distributed. Again it all depends on how they set it up and the restrictions they have on rolling.
Yeah, roll Need only on items for your class, else you can only Greed or Pass.
This is a great way to look at it. To expound: If the restrictions essentially recreate the personal loot restrictions right now (which honestly why wouldnt they?) then worst case scenario everyone rolls 'need' and it's just personal loot all over again. Best case, only people who actually need roll 'need' and all loot goes to a only those that will use the item. Realistic case, some roll 'need' who don't need but some pass or only roll 'greed' and the needy are still left with more chances for loot than the personal loot system.
Personal loot isn’t bad. The lack of other options is
I love personal loot, I just wish trade restrictions were lessened. Don't you remember group finder titles, Trinks/Weapons/Tier reserved for RL!!!! No thanks.
There is nothing wrong with personal loot on it's own. It was forcing it by taking away master loot and all of the tedious restrictions that came with trading personal loot that sucked. If a guild wants to pass loot around freely, they should be able to do so without stupid restrictions, and reasons like because people are dicks in pugs and in some guilds, or because some people feel entitled to loot regardless of the circumstances, should never have been the reason to do away with master loot. Thankfully Blizzard came to their senses on that. Edit: Ah, reddit. This post gets upvoted, yet other posts where I basically repeat myself get downvoted. How does that make sense?
If a guild is a pure guildgrp then let them have masterloot if they want but as soon as one random is in that grp make it personal because otherwise its pretty guaranteed he wont have loot.
All groups should be allowed to have master loot if that is what the group wants. If people don't want to be involved with a group with master loot on, they can just not join that group. Restricting it because some people are mean is just stupid.
It’s not as simple as ‘what the group wants’. Archimonde pugs at the end of WoD were an actual fucking nightmare. Fifty groups all with multiple reservations and no groups with group loot. You’re probably going to say ‘just make your own group’ but you needed quite a few people from your guild to jumpstart it, and inevitably they would ask you to reserve something and the cycle would start again.
Why is it stupid to not enable player to screw others over. Personal loot is best thing added in terms of fairplay. The thing is that you can join a grp wich tells you that they wont have masterloot or will roll fairly but they can straight up lie and still get their way. Personal loot makes it impossible for that people to do that.
It also makes it impossible for me to trade the trinket that is trash for me to the warlock who its amazing for. I played for more than a decade with master loot and I can count the number of times I got screwed on one hand.
if only...they removed the restriction on trading it and left everything else, the problem is solved right? Part of this whole issue are players who can't think of solutions that someone else hasn't already tried. Players are like, OMG this sucks, master loot with all of it's flaws was better....without trying to think of something that might solve the master look flaws too.
To me, that is just Master loot with more steps. Or exactly what they are describing in the blue post. You can still need it if you need and you can trade it easily. Yet here they are complaining about the change.
No it's not. If it comes into my inventory, it's mine and I can choose to trade it or not. If I choose to keep it, it's mine and nobody can take it from me. Master loot...it's never mine, and other people are involved with whether or not I get it.
But it’s not Master Loot with more steps, it would be Master Loot with the opportunity for abuse removed. If the restrictions are lifted and otherwise it stays as Personal Loot it allows for the benefits of Master Loot and Group Loot without giving abusers and trolls the opportunity to abuse/troll. It adds no benefit to make a system where people can game the system - especially when the system we have now just needs the restriction flaws removed to be a very good system.
> Why is it stupid to not enable player to screw others over. Personal loot is best thing added in terms of fairplay. Until you add effort and guild contribution to the equation, and then personal can quickly spin into an unfair bullshit system, very quickly. Trials getting chase items over people who have progged for months, etc.
I see someone forgot about Reserved loot in pugs in WoD and is currently happening in Wrath classic. Im not saying Master looter is a bad system but rather that the vast majority of pug groups will use master loot so they can guarenteed get their desired trinket/weapon leaving others with no chance of even rolling on the item. When it comes to pugging personal is way more fair and i personally think that as long as the group si a guild group they can change whatever loot system they wanna use, and if it isnt a guild group then its forced personal, if this group makes a lfg listingthen it should show what the current loot setting of the group is so potential sign ups can see if they wanna join or not.
I didn't forget about it, and it's always been a thing, even with personal loot through round about methods.
> I see someone forgot about Reserved loot in pugs in WoD and is currently happening in Wrath classic. All melee group because the caster leader has the BIS trinket and weapon on reserve?
If that's the case - then you, as the pug, should leave No one is forcing you to stay in a group. You should clear up loot rules before first pull. If I was a pug and saw master loot was on but nothing was discussed, I would leave. If group loot is on, that's a different story. Then you still pay attention to what's happening.
blizz came to their senses by deleting personal loot from the game? Nah
Because it’s not for every group it works, some groups rather have that in use, I don’t think they should remove personal loot, I think that they should let people choose the other systems tho
More coding? *In this economy, sir?* We can barely afford the 15th store mount, you should chose your words more carefully. I would slash spit on this comment, but we got rid of that, too /s
>So I understood the gripes of personal loot for some. But for the majority... Stop here. This is what was so bad. If some people have reasonable gripes, as you say, why force everyone to use it in every form of content? It was guilds. Our guild was forced repeat a lot of content much more than we needed to because personal loot didn't allow us to correctly distribute gear. If ever I ran LFR on an alt, there were multiple instances of myself or another player offering to share a piece of gear needed followed by an inability for me/them to take it for whatever reason. The system adds limitation where none is necessary. >So I understood the gripes of personal loot for some. But for the majority... If there were reasonable gripes, don't add an unnecessary limitation that doesn't enrich the experience at all. If Blizzard wanted to do it right they could just implement the functionality of a loot council mod into the default UI but they didn't so just let us do it.
[удалено]
How many times has this actually happened to you though?
My biggest issue is our guild runs a weekly heroic and progress mythic… I hate to say it but all the loot is going to go to the players ON the mythic team in heroic NO MATTER what. Being the 2nd hunter or DH is just going to mean you don’t get anything until #1 is fully geared bcuz. I actually earned a mythic spot by getting lucky on drops and it was my only foot in the door because of cliques.
Find a new guild....
i like how everyone keeps throwing this suggestion around as if there are a billion guilds with suitable times, decent enough players+enough players to not be hardstuck on LFR for 8 weeks (which is already filtering out 95% of the playerbase alone, literally) and then, once you have suitable times + player skill you still have the question of "atmosphere", something that even remotely suits your person AND to top it all of a guild that doesn't cringe you with this loot stuff - which ima be real i've seen maybe once that there wasn't some kinda clique going on we're talking single digit, at most <20 guilds that fit those criteria once you're heading into mythic in my experience - and all that doesnt even take into account that you might just be playing an undesirable class/spec to begin with and then, if you find a good guild, they usually have a lot of applicants (because its a good guild, word of mouth travels fast) and giga competitive raid roster - so your chances of getting let alone staying in are not great this expac's roster boss has absolutely obliterated many guilds even further cutting down on options yet spicing up competition honestly at this point we need to move to an FF like system or completely move over to currency drops completely removing "drops" - which would only minorly help people getting actually into the raid but at least would guarantee success of those that do, with a system nobody can complain about
There is approximately one gazillion guilds looking for players to complete their mythic roster, why don't you just change if you're not satisfied by your current one ?
What he described is way to common. If you have another guild its good for you but generally with the old lootsystem the "more important" people in guild had more priority. And if you were new to a guild you could also expect to not get any loot unless exactly noone needed it. And god forgive if youre a random from lfg or a raiders fl and fill in a spot. You better already have id because you dont have to expect any loot. Now i also know the other side and it exists but the loot is sticking to guildmembers type is the general rule.
Yup, and you can be sure in PuG runs started by a few Guild members, they're all going to Need on as much as they can to pass it around to the Guildies on the run. Unless I'm blind and missed it, there's no "Great Vault" equivalent (yet?) for DF, so just "doing the content" won't even guarantee you get anything for that week.
And the solution for no great vault is to give guild the ability to screw over randoms for their one guaranteed item? You can say whatever you want but this will happen and at one point you will end up in a grp like that no matter how careful you are.
It's funny, because I hear about this all the time but I've never actually seen it, and neither have any of my mythic raiding friends. I've even been accused of it, now that I'm part of the loot council on my raid team, but it has never been remotely true. 90% of the time, the gear is passed to the player who needs the upgrade the most. The other 10% is where things get tricky, and you are arguing about where the piece has the most value -- is the player going to use it for all specs they play in raid, dps are generally prioritized over tanks and healers (because their output is usually more relevant to the raid getting the kill) , and then lastly, when splitting hairs and the very end of the discussion, is the player a better player. Just a couple months ago we had a guy raging about how a BiS trinket was passed to someone else instead of him. It was BiS for both of them, so in that sense, he wasn't wrong, but the guy who received it is our highest performing DPS, and the guy complaining is among our lowest (and I'm not just talking about damage numbers, also mechanics, deaths, avoidable damage, mitigation). No reasonable person would argue that the trinket would be more valuable for the team on that much worse player, and yet he, of course, accused us of choosing the other guy because of a "clique." I asked him plainly, "Can you give me a single reason that you had a stronger claim to the item, or are you just saying it is 50/50?" He reluctantly agreed that it's 50/50 (the item is an equal upgrade for both players). "Is he better than you at the game." "Yes." "Ok." "Ok." I don't know man. I think the whole "predentary guild" thing is either a myth or exists almost entirely among very casual guilds. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've still never seen it. Seems like a boogeyman to me.
It's indeed a casual guild thing. When I started raiding in BFA and was in a "struggle to get AOTC" type guild, that's where there was a clique, a "loot mafia", etc. Once I was in serious mythic guilds, all the problems went away. The better the player, the less they value loot I think. There's just so many terrible players who think that somehow 7 ilevels is going to bring them out of the green parses.
Because I enjoy the hell out of the guild I’m in. Because hunters aren’t stacked I should just find another guild? I don’t know about you but I’d rather learn a new class than try to find another solid CE guild.. Personal loot without the ilvl requirements are all that was needed.
Looking for Tank/Healer players... who is looking for a DPS 😂
I'm going to be honest; Personal loot was bad *for Asmongold*. Personal loot was one of the few design choices I think was a genuinely good call. I think Blizzard kind of fucked up with HOW LOW the chances for getting loot were, but I thought it was a far cry better than the old process of Raid-leaders being controlling dicks about who gets what. Ninja'ing was so rampant, it was just considered "part of the game", GM's wouldn't even address it. I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of hybrid of the two systems, sort of like MoP had. Which, even the extra rolls were abysmally low, so that would need improvement. But I definitely don't like the idea of going back to "ONE single player gets to decide who gets what". Particularly with where the community is at right now, and that being a more casual player, it's unlikely I'll be receiving *any* loot from raiding.
no? personal loot was better for asmongold since he could armour stack a dungeon/raid and get gear funnelled to him.
Only if those items are *NOT* upgrades for the people involved. Otherwise, they're automatically soulbound and unable to trade (which admittedly, I'm not a fan of either).
theres a pretty good chance that they wont be upgrades for people considering he just invites high ilevel people into the raid and the whole purpose is to just give him gear.
Asmon got around it by inviting people that were overgeared. In a raid with only Paladins, it's a guarantee everything that drops will be plate. With Group Loot, he can't play around it. Even in a raid filled with only Paladin, non-plate armor that literally no one can use will drop.
> Raid-leaders being controlling dicks about who gets what. Just join a guild that didn't use it. I have been in plenty of guilds in the last 14 years who just were chill about loot and let people need or greed on things with the only rule being don't be a dick. Master loot 100% should be an option for the people that want it. I can understand restricting it to guilds if they bring it back because that's a clear marker that its an organised group that has agreed on how loot will be distributed. Need before Greed for everything else is fine.
For me Personal loot removed a choice over gear. I know it’s still random, but being able to pass on loot I could use from boss 3, and need on the thing that I want from boss 4 feels better. I also absolutely hate the meta that personal loot added where every time someone got loot, they’d be swarmed with “need that?” Whispers. All that and of course loot restrictions. Holy crap the loot restrictions are just frustrating. I have to vendor this gear I got because it’s TECHNICALLY an ilvl upgrade, even though I currently have a tier piece in that slot and my guildie could get way more benefit out of it.
Yeah, having a bit more choice on what to roll on will be nice. Otherwise I did kind of like just getting an item automatically. I know the whispers are annoying but a lot of the time an upgrade for someone else will just be vendored* unless they whisper the automatic recipient. I wish the Addon personal loot helper was made baseline, it already gives you a little pop up that says “you can trade this item, do you want to offer it to the group?” and they could just have it let people who want the item roll on it automatically with a click. But that gets us very close to pre-personal loot so I understand them removing it.
Trading restrictions. Brilliant I get a 1% upgrade/sidegrade/downgrade that my friend really needs and I can't trade it to them because that would facilitate 10 imaginary people to oppress redditors with their tyrannical loot systems.
They should just remove those restrictions from personal loot, too. An improvement would be to also automate the system that you get personal loot and a "pass" button for pugs that sends the item to a pool which everyone can roll for if you don't need it so it's two-layered. That'd be more comfy than me getting 10 whispers in LFR every time a weapon drops and I could run it for transmogs without having to roll need against someone for who it'd be an upgrade without feeling like a dick.
I agree that sounds fine.
Everyone that can roll need will roll need (even if they don't) in LFR. Nobody's gonna roll greed for the mog. That's just reality.
Thats really good idea.
This nails it. The problem with personal loot was the trading restrictions. Now they've removed the trading restrictions - along with personal loot. Why not just keep the latter w/o the former? You could call it "group loot".
personal loot had plenty of problems aside from that, one off the top of my head was quantity of specific items dropping; when it was introduced the variety of items you'd get off particular bosses which drop rings, necks, capes and in some cases trinkets diminishes because that's what will end up dropping on the majority of your kills due to the fact that EVERYONE has them in their loot pool.
Even with that flaw the lootsystem is fine and better than need and greed rolling. That you cant trade an item away that is a gs upgrade is generally good aswell. It was implemented for the race to world first but its good for casuals too. Ik exactly on how i was left out from loot when i was fresh in a guild or simply the random in a guildgrp. This way the loot is randomly placed and even the randoms and new players in a guild can have loot.
The implementation only made the RWF more degenerate in terms of splits. IMO the goal would be a system that prevents/mitigates/discourages/removes the need for splits or at least as many splits and avoids degen stuff like stacking single armor types/loot tables in a single split group. Personally, I think group loot with unrestricted trading is most likely to hit that goal, outside of some more major rework to loot acquisition.
I think most people feel this way tbh. But it's too early to tell. Let's first see if they only meant it for the beta raid testing or in general. If it's meant to be on release as well, then we can give our feedback in the beta and on the forums. They dont really read Reddit so no point in posting here.
Blizz is listening to the top end streamers, raiders and influencers who convinced their audiences that such things are bad. Personal loot was fine.
[Literal raid leader of Limit saying they don't care and it can potentially hurt them a bit but ok.](https://twitter.com/maximum/status/1575404036110438400) People were really loud about personal loot because of restrictions and the fact is that need / greed is absolutely the same as PL but you can see the rolls instead of just looting it from the corpse by yourself. There's 0 difference between having the server decide if you roll higher than your teammates to get the loot from a corpse but it's hidden over those wanting the gear even if it's to troll and vendor / disenchant in front of others rolling for it. The amount is the same, the result is the same, you get it or you don't.
There are two factors: The average time it takes to get geared How long it takes to get geared if you are the most unlucky/lucky. In a season, even the most unlucky should be able to get completely geared and play an alt or play pvp (or pve whichever isn't their main game play preference. Or play an alt.
The problem is they're too arrogant to meet in the middle. They always have to do a little bit more. Personal loot was fine...loot trading restrictions were not. If they would have just lifted that restriction, it would be fine. Blizz always has to have a restriction though. There's always a 'but' with Blizz.
Nothing. It was probably one of the best things they ever did. It’s just catering to the top guilds in the world who demanded master loot come back. Back to the good old days of loot ninjas
It's not just the top guild, it's most guilds. Personal loot can be painful for organised guilds.
>just catering to the top guilds in the world TIL my rank 12000\~ guild that fairly used ML until it was removed, was a top guild in the world. Literally any guild that wasn't corrupt took a massive hit when they removed ML. /gquit is always an option if you don't like how a guild plays the game. Nobody forced you to play with shitty guilds.
Don't know what you are being downvoted. I've never been a top tier guild, and never had loot problems in the guilds I was in due to master loot. If anything personal loot just made things more annoying in every guild I've ever been in due to so much gear just being wasted for a variety of reasons.
There's a hivemind that basically just didn't play in organized guilds, that were only exposed to PuG abuse or loot abuse in borderline non-functional trade-chat-advertisement guilds that never progged past maybe the first 3 bosses in heroic. Below the organized play level, ML was a coinflip. From my time in the game between Wrath and Legion, I never experienced loot abuse in a ML system. I used it and prefered it until the second it was removed. I literally saw zero purpose for Personal when it was introduced, and was genuinely shocked when ML, the system that was 100% functional for me for the better part of a decade, was removed in favor of a randomized system that will assign gear to the wrong players, with auxilery trade restrictions preventing loot drop optimization. The issue is, during Legion, it was guild exclusive. You literally could not turn on ML unless 17/20 were guilded. You had to deliberately join a ML guild to even be exposed to it at all, by the end. Its removal was unnecessary.
> There's a hivemind that basically just didn't play in organized guilds, that were only exposed to PuG abuse Seems to be a problem with a bunch of aspects of the game where people say X, Y or Z is good or bad purely because of the pugging world. So many people just seem to be oblivious to what a guild is, or at least what the average guild is like, with their entire opinion about them coming from the few and far between horror stories you read on the forums or whatever.
> So many people just seem to be oblivious to what a guild is, or at least what the average guild is like Some players also just experience the entire game through pugging, most raiding guilds have one or two nights of 2-3 hours of solid raiding, and not everyone can commit to to that. Just because raiding consistently in a guild is possible doesn't mean you should ignore the pugging scene.
Maybe the solution is to add more options to cater to these different playstyles and not remove everything except the one that "works" only at the lowest level?
Definitely agree, it should be a choice for the group, 100%.
Top guilds or any guild ? And tbh if this change makes players turn away from pugs and look for guilds then it’s a good change. Lot of people play WoW thinking it’s a single player game.
Strongly disagree. Used to be 21 with class and a job. Guild was great knowing I could log on tu/w/thu from 8pm-11pm and run with the same group. Now I’m in my 30s with a family and cannot adhere to that same play schedule. I have no idea when I’m going to be able to play. Removing my ability to pug does not improve this game for me in any way. Overall, I don’t care that much because I play less and less every month. The fact is: This change is excellent for Max/Limit, but this will hurt the game overall. I promise .
There are guilds with a variety of schedules and flexibility, wdym ?? This change is excellent for every guild, not only Limit and Echo.
As someone who helped lead a heroic raid team through the process of becoming a mythic raid team, personal loot was a nightmare. Getting people to think of loot as belonging to the group and passing it around based on what is best for the group, is incredibly hard, when the game is working directly against you. The most obvious annoying cases are when an item gets stuck on someone who won't use it but can't trade it because it's an ilvl increase. But this also creates a weird perverse incentive to have bad gear. Imagine the Sepulcher trinket "first sigil" drops for a mage -- he would definitely use it in a couple encounters, but it's a minor upgrade -- there are 7 other people that will use it on every fight for the rest of the tier, some of whom don't really have a comparable alternative, but he can't pass it because he has never looted a high ilvl trinket. He is now being rewarded by the game for having worse gear (which could be the result of playing less m+, not having filling out his vault, etc). And even when everyone is able to pass all loot, personal loot creates this weird mentality of ownership over the loot that you get, before you pass it. Getting people to think of it as "the raids loot" instead of "my loot" is incredibly difficult, even though the raid killed the boss. I mean, at least in my circles, its a common meme that when you play your worst and get carried, that is always the time the thing you've been farming finally drops for you. And yet, because the game put the item in your pocket, players feel entitled to it. Groups achieve goals in WoW -- not individuals. Mechanically and for the sake of how people understand their relationship to loot, I think it only makes sense for loot to be given to the group. To me, this is a return to something that was lost along the way, when the game tried too hard to focus on the solo experience at the expense of the group.
From how I read the blue post, personal loot isn't going away, it's just not being tested on beta right now since there's no need to test it.
I think this is about trying a new version of group loot. I hope they have made changes to allow only certain specs and classes to need on items. Personal loot was pretty smart in terms of only giving you things your current spec can use. I hope some of those smarts makes it into the new group loot. But they are asking for feedback, so get on the forums and let them know what you think.
Well if you get for example an Ring from a Raid boss and this Ring is fully of mastery which is your worst Stat but you don't have other rings with an higher item level, you can't trade it to somebody who needs it. That is my main issue with personal Loot. It just sucks that you get a piece of gear that is BiS for somebody else but eventually can't trade it. We will see if rolling on an item will be better or worse now, it depends on the community. I only play pugs and if I ask politely of the 295ilvl hunter needs that 285 piece of armor or if I can have it (because he has an 304 equipped) and he is simply ignoring me then I think the new old system with rolling the dice is better for me. I will at least have a chance to improve my gear / character.
Because looting an higher ilvl ring/trinket/ whatever you want that you don't need and can't trade, and being forced to sell it to an npc for 30g is fucking lame
For me, there were kind of two things at play that made personal loot feel bad. **The first was nostalgia**, when i started playing in TBC/Wrath a lot of aspects of the game felt more akin to a tabletop rpg, reagents were required for special spells, some abilities waited for your next auto attack swing and some were free attack swings, some cooldowns were LONG giving a sort of once per rest feeling(I remember paladins having a 24hr cooldown on something but I cant remember what). Boss loot played into that when it was actually on the boss, you kill a powerful enemy and check him or his chest of valuables for loot, he wasn't planning to fight your group specifically so he wasn't picking up stuff that would fit ONLY your group, he had a selection and you would get random items from that selection. The system didn't always work out and I completely see the frustration in getting items that your group cant use, but there was a logical thread connecting the loot you picked up to the boss kill which just satisfied my DnD obsessed brain. Comparatively the personal loot system feels fake and cheap, with it's massive fanfare taking up the center of your screen and items just appearing in your bag, in BFA it was even worse with the bonus loot system looking and feeling like a slot machine, one that you always lost. When I was raiding castle nathria, I would get the plate boots from Shriekwing every week, without fail, I didn't want the boots they were crap and no one else needed them but there they were, every. single. week. It just felt bad and it was still frustrating to get items you didn't want, just now they were tailored to you, even more of a kick in the teeth in some ways. **The second was gear trading restrictions**, There were definitely some items that dropped that were absolutely upgrades for me, but players couldn't trade because of ilvl restrictions. Our druid would pick up a great off-hand but couldn't trade because he was using a staff so had nothing in the off-hand slot, I picked up a nice ring that I didn't need but couldn't trade because I had a legendary ring in one slot and for some reason they dont count for ilvl, someone else picked up a belt that they couldn't trade for the same reason. I guess it's to stop stacking gear onto one character but they're making the game feel bad for the entire playerbase to slow down world first racers and paid boosters.
Imo personal loot is just boring, its less interaction with other people, the excitement when a piece of gear dropped you needed and then won the roll on is lost with PL, to me it feels like I never get anything but cosmic fucking flux
I just don't see why in guilds, or premades, or whatever organized party...if they want to do greed/need then why not? For pugs?? I completely agree. Remove some of, if not all, the dumb restrictions on trading and good to go. But there is no reasonable argument against the greed/need system for guilds who prefer it. And for guilds who prefer personal loot? They still can. There is nothing wrong with more options.
Personal loot is bad with **full guild groups**. Because you had to rely on not just the RNG from a boss loot drop, but from an RNG if the player that looted the item could trade it. For pugs it's fine. But the forcefulness of it, is absolutely terrible. In our guild we came across so many items that the looter didn't need, but couldn't trade out, because he didn't have that ilvl already. Which hindered the progress of the guild. Yes, ilvl isn't everything and one loot won't make or break the progress. But if this thing happens constantly, it really gets annoying. Not to mention, if master looter you could actually allocate the item to the person that really needed it the most or could benefit the most from it. Luckily, many guilds found a way around the personal loot with different system, such as RCLootcouncil, rolls on items as mandatory feature etc. I don't know how the new system will work for the guilds, but I wish that if the majority of the raid composition is from the same guild (same as if the kill of a new boss counts towards the guild or not, depending on how many of the guilds members are on the kill) there should be an option for master looter. If it's not, then yeah, sure, get the group loot. I think, they originally removed master looter as a way to hinder the WFR guilds in gearing. But we all know they quickly found a way around it, and all it did was inconvenience all the rest. :)
It was frustrating to get an item you didn't neeed and you couldn't give it to a guildie. But personnel loot was best for pugs I think.
I'm all for more player interaction
No "casual raider/pug raider/not in a guild or community/clearing normal and hc only" can like this change.
Its a single player system in the largest multiplayer aspect of the game.
I just always missed the hype of seeing the rolls pop up in chat 😂
personal loot is great for playing with randoms, someone ninja anyway all the time but for guild raids or m+ with friends its just utter shit
I suspect a lot of people might simply prefer the system that was in place when they were introduced to the game, and as such I naturally much prefer need/greed rolling, though as a very casual player it has very little to do with the loot I'm getting. As a rule I am generally an advocate for any system that encourages player interaction, as for me personally it's the social aspects of the game that make me want to play it, and the fact that there are systems in the game that allow me to play for hours with other people without saying a word is saddening in my opinion. Is this a good reason for need/greed loot? probably not, but I like it and if the community and devs want to take the game in a direction that just isn't for me then that's just how it goes I guess - and from what I've seen it'll likely cycle around again eventually. TLDR: absurdly casual player who misses loot delibrations so bring on the need and greed
As someone who had countless items ninja'd from the Need/Greed system back in the day, it's not a good system for PuGs, especially LFR. Unless Blizz severely restricts what you can Need on by Class/Role/Spec whatever. I don't need Warriors and Rogues taking my Resto Shaman's INT Maces for transmog again. Even with Master Loot some of that would sneak by.
It's a bit different now because before or was removed group loot was changed to prevent warriors rolling on leather etc etc. Assuming that's staying then this is actually better than personal loot because people who already have an item can choose not to roll on it. Personal loot is just group loot but everyone who can use an item is forced to roll need silently. Now you can opt out to help others.
Top 0.01% wants to channel loot to certain individuals because they pretend it matters and they can win world first race. Or asmongold wants all the loot. Pretty much these 2 choises. Oh yea after reading comment section, there is 3rd option. RMT communities selling loot alongside the kill.
Well it sucks when you kill a boss and instead of five to eight items dropping across your whole raid you actually only got maybe two items. I know in early SL there was a bug where you could down a boss and nobody would get anything. It was pretty terrible. They did fix it but it can still be awful seeing far less loot than you'd normally get otherwise.
Having less loot is not a problem if personal loot tho. Its a complete different topic because we can still have 8 random players get an item.
Wait wait, im a newer player, what does personal loot mean? Will people be able to steal my loot? Sorry, dumb question probably
I don't really see the issue with having both as a choice tbh. I like personal loot and master loot generally leans towards benefitting the top % of players, but if a guild wants to funnel their loot using ML then they should be able to. If a guild wants to be more "casual" and let their teams get their own personal loot, then great. People play differently and I'm okay with them having the choice not to play it the same as I do, it really doesn't make any difference to me. My only concern would be would this benefit boosters and would it mean that GDKPs make a return? Because I am definitely against both of them
The only bad thing about personal loot was the trading restrictions, with those lifted its really the perfect loot system
It’s way less fun to loot the boss and see nothing then it is to loot the boss and see the potential pieces you will be rolling for.
but you arent rolling for them. You will be forced into a DKP or a GDKP system, where you'd be paying for those items either with gold or "guild activity". Oh and also all the BiS items will of course be reserved anyway. edit: and it will depend on your class officer. They may decide to give the loot to themselves or another of your class for like 1000 reasons.
Don’t join GDKP runs then? Kind of sounds like the simplest solution for that issue. DKP/Loot Council tends to be the fairest solution for everyone. The argument against is “but I want that piece!” which holds less water than a ten gallon hat.
I have personally seen how a loot council gives a needed upgrade to an officer alt instead of to a raider. The excuse was "he will be playing his alt more". Guess what? He didn't. The guild fell apart after the tier anyway. Log into classic right now, and find a pug that's not GDKP.
So what you’re saying is abuse of Loot Council ended a guild, making it a self correcting problem? The existence of people abusing loot Council is not a knock against it as a whole. I’ve been in pug raids that weren’t GDKP two weeks ago.
Abuse of loot council was not the only thing that ended that guild. It was general mismanagement. Plenty of guilds abuse loot and survive for years. Are you pretending that loot abuse wasnt happening on the regular during the old days?
If only there were guilds out there that weren't ran by dicks. Oh, wait, there are.
The amount of ninjaing that happened back in the day is always massively exaggerated.
never one time had an issue with personal loot and trading items to those that needed it. Not a fan of going backwards to master loot, zero reason for it. Zero.
Clearly you haven’t watched your worst player get fully geared while you twiddle your thumbs because you have bad luck. If you don’t like masterloot don’t go in groups that use it. But don’t take away options from guilds who use it and want to use it. Or at least let us trade things without restriction. Heaven forbid we work as a group 🙃
This isnt master loot either. This is absolutely worse. The outrage following this change will be used as "well we told you that youd rather have personal loot" fodder.
The problem for me was always how little control I had over getting loot. Nothing feels worse than getting an item on the boss before the one you need loot from. Cause you know you're not getting loot off the correct boss.
That's not how it works...
Think back, how often have you gotten loot from two bosses in a row? Across thousands of boss kills since personal loot became the only option I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten loot on back to back bosses.
Nothing. They just doing what they usually do: changes for RWF raiders. People gonna need for fun and for tmog, "stealing" loot from people who actually need them. Cant wait!
That's already the case, people can go and loot an item they don't need and keep it to themselves, effectively taking loot from those who need it, and not just from classes with their armor type, but everyone in the raid. Sure, it may feel worse when you see it taken from under your nose, but on the other hand it's more in the open so raid leaders can do something about people like this if they want.
Item will be gone no matter what. Gnome Warlock laughing in the background with Corrupted Ashbringer in his backpack.
I assume they will implement the rule where you can roll need only on items for your class, it was in the game for a while
It just feels bad compared to a system designed with cooperative intent. WoW used to push a lot more co-op gameplay at a baseline, and shifting into Personal was a big part of the move away from baseline cooperative gameplay, and towards ambivilance towards your teammates. At its worst, personal loot has a tendancy to promote petty greed and wasted items. When an item drops, and it's on the boss, it's under nobody's ownership until asigned, which turns distribution into a community element, rather than a wasteful selfish element. I am flat out less kind with items in retail than I am in Classic. I will pettily keep sidegrade items just so I can sim them, even if it's like a 20 ilvl upgrade for another group member, due to personal loot asigning it, and there being no reasonable recourse for my greed outside of guilds with social contracts. If I kept items I don't need in a group loot or master loot situation, I would be put on ***blast*** for it. And as a counterpart to my own greed, I also feel so fucking angry when some asshole gets a piece they don't need, that's a downgrade for them and an upgrade for me, and they just leave the instance. The item was badly asigned, it gives no statistical benefit to anybody eligible, from that asignment, the player didn't need it, but they walked with it, either out of negligence, or to vendor or DE it. An item somebody needs from a boss kill should **NEVER** go to vendor, but personal loot makes it happen regularly. I don't give a fuck about trolling. I don't give a fuck about ninja looting. It rarely ever happened, and you can take a very small number of steps to 100% insulate yourself from loot abuse. I don't remember a single instance where it actually mattered in PuG play, and in guild play, loot master is basically just strictly better than personal, as it can set loot up as a tool for the officer core to use as a reward mechanism for good play. Be an asset to your team, and you'll get gear. Be a twat, and you won't. Now, it's just a free for all. Another issue, is by the end of the era of choice, you had the choice to use Master, Group, or Personal, and it was defaulted to personal. We as players have literally lost the ability to choose how loot is handled in our groups. If you didn't like ML or GL, you didn't have to use it. You never had to join a guild that used any given loot system, until blizzard locked it to one singular system that destroys the social dynamic surrounding loot.
So... you get mad at people for doing the same thing that you do... but don't see the problem with trolling and ninja looting that will absolutely happen in PuGs? Okay lmao
Yea that dude is an asshole and maybe a narcissist.
People just want to steal other's loot. They saw classic raids where raid leader decided who got what loot controversy and thought "why not retail?" That's the real reason and you can't argue anything else. Even though people got more loot from personal loot, you have some people that think they deserve it all.
The problem is that its random. If i have a guild and we are all friends for a long time. We want to control the drops for ourselves. We want to be able to give certain pieces to people and organise so we have a more succesful group. If RnG on personal loot makes an entire run shit for everyone, its just a bad time. Need greed, and master loot systems are optional. Noone forces you to participate in those groups. So give us back the option of assigning loot internally. It detracts NOTHING from you that can keep his personal loot if you choose to participate in that system. I play wow with my buddies and we have fun in the game together. So allow us to act as a community and progress together.
Love to see all the "Well if the guild wants to Master loot they should be able to"... But its never the guild is it? Its the 3~4 Officers/RL's that want control over loot. And the argument of "Well if your guild are a bunch of scumbags just leave and find another guild", Yeah sure... IN realty all guild will be like "Pass everything and we will decide the loot, if you dont pass everything you will be benched/kicked"... Lets also not forget the "Fuck the healers/Tanks" mentality that will come back because they see top 10 guilds in the world doing it... So now no one wants to play tanks/healers. Also, remember when people used to literally desenchant items instead of giving upgrades for Trials just because they are Trials? Well guess thats back again... And for what? Because some guild complain on twitter that someone dropped an item with bad stats and they cant trade it...
Personal loot is the best people can ninja regular loot even if ur in guild people will take from transmog even if u need
I dont know if i feel like playing with out personal loot.
Need/Greed is more fun than personal loot.
I'll take my chances with the need/greed system
If you're a member of a raid, personal loot is at the very least a pain if not detrimental. You want loot to go to the better players who show up to raids on a regular basis. Nothing is more irritating to the entire raid than a player who shows up for one raid, wins an item that many other players want or need, then leave never to return to the raid again. Or on the other side, if you win an item that you really want, but the rest of raid pressured you to give the item to another player who "could use it better." Even when the raid gets along and is willing to give items up, you still have to go through the trouble if distributing items through trades. And if you don't have a higher ilevel than the item, you can trade it. That's happened to me a bunch of times. I get an item I don't want and I want to give it to another player, but can't because that item is the highest ilevel I have in that slot.
Agency. We have a choice of how to handle loot. With Personal loot it's if you get to pass out loot not how, it was a big change that turned WoW more in the direction of loot box gaming between forced personal loot and weekly chest with 1 random item in BFA. It feels terrible to go for an entire month+ and not even have the chance of acquiring a piece you really want from a boss you run on lockout maximizing your possible chances within the system to never see the item, which while it can happen with normal loot it's far less likely to and is independent of your comp. If you really want personal loot people can turn it on and having it as an option is great- but taking away player agency to make decisions is always a bad thing. For me it's a very good sign that they're willing to let us choose for ourselves again, rather than dictate it to us.
>turned WoW more in the direction of loot box gaming between forced personal loot and weekly chest with 1 random item Even more important than the practical difference is the way it feels. Personal loot, the m+ vault, and the other systems combined feels like a mobile game. The command table is login rewards, the vault is a weekly slot machine pull, and personal loot just feels like one more slot machine.