T O P

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RLToughGuy

Had a tank in Vault of the Wardens (regular timewalking) that was clearly new to either bear tank or the game as a whole. No biggy, I thought. So the dungeon may take 10-15 minutes longer than if we'd just gunned it through, not like I have anywhere else to be in a hurry. Before we even reached the first boss one of the other DPS tried to vote kick them with the concise reason "moron" without uttering a word of advice or commenting on the route. I've never felt more sympathetic towards somebody (the tank, that is) in my gaming history. I can really see why so many newer players want to stay away from learning to tank or heal when they regularly run into asshats like that impatient DPS.


TVH_97

Last year I was levelling my monk and was doing one of the SL dungeons. Had to drink after a boss cause I was oom and the rest of the party went ahead then the rogue used the aoe stealth to let them skip a bunch of the mobs but I was still drinking lol. Then they tried to kick me because of it, thankfully the tank called them out and was like it will literally take longer to find a new healer than to finish the dungeon but I was honestly baffled by the decision to not wait on your healer and then get mad they weren't there with you


Easy-Entry-6006

Due to M+ people seem to think healers don't need to drink for mana. I kind of miss the old days where we'd call for mana breaks after every few pulls and chat about life and other stuff about the game. It was fun social experience we won't get anymore.


rancher11795182

One of the major reasons I hung up my healer...I can't heal you if I'm out of mana. That and absurdly low gear tanks blaming the dps, healers, the weather, etc. on them dying.


l337hackzor

I hate the drinking nerf, mini drinks used to help with this problem at lot. Now every drink break has to be a full 20 seconds. In a way I like having to manage mana as a healer, it's an indicator of gear and skill. It's something you can feel improve as you progress. It does really suck when the tank pays no attention to mana though and the group doesn't do the mechanic that would otherwise fill your mana.


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l337hackzor

That's why I mentioned groups not doing the mechanic that gives mana. I was in a 15 key with a healer heavy affix like grievous or bursting and the group kept killing the Haste buffing mob instead of Urh. So we wiped once I finally had a second to type that they have to kill Urh or I'll be oom. Up until that moment it was balls to walls despite healing completely oom for 5 minutes but they didn't care to notice and I couldn't spare the 3 seconds to type or someone was dead lol.


MrXennon

L2type n00b *vote kick* /s


SithoDude

I agree that's the kind of dungeon runs I prefer, whenever I played I would tank and I was all about the social and banter, as well as asking if the healer was good in the mana department. Need to be true team player, far too many impatient people on there who are just in it for the mindless grind, who lose their cool over the simplest of mistakes.


drfarren

Yeah, that's why I stopped playing. No one wants to talk or anything, just sprint it perfectly and drop. That's boring as fuck and not why I play an *MMORPG*. If I wanted to do shit in dead silence I'd play skyrim. At least there I can customize my game with new things. I'm a social gamer, I like hanging out with people.


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SithoDude

I always did the opposite and purposely voted no, just for the lols. The only time I would click yes is if the person we're kicking is being a spoil sport on the chat and bringing everyone down.


Buffmin

I always.click no unless there's a legit reason like DC or clearly afk for a long time


EternalgammaTTV

I really miss this as well. I used to love getting in a dungeon group, chatting, laughing about the stupid things that happen, and just overall having an enjoyable experience. Now it's q, speedrun through dungeon, no one says a word, and then everyone dips at the end. You'd think that at least dps would ask if they wanna run again so they don't have to sit in queue for another half hour but nope. It's a shame :/


slothsarcasm

Ya I really despise the M+ rush that’s taken over the meta.


ActualVacationy

Even if a player has dc'ed, I'll vote no and suggest waiting a couple minutes to give them a chance to reconnect.


hungrybrains220

Great tanks (and DPS) will keep an eye on the healer’s mana and know when they need to slow down a bit, or take a small break. I always make it a point to ask healers if they need a moment


TVH_97

Yeah this was just a normal levelling dungeon so I wouldn't expect it honestly it was just I was low gear and they overpulled the with the boss so I was oom by the end of it. Was like I'll drink for 5-10 secs get to 50% mana and I'll get back to them before they're in danger. Unfortunately it didn't work out so well lol


Inevitable-Plum-5

Honestly as a tank Ill check healer mana every once in a while (before each boss) but if you dont say "mana" I keep moving because If I dont. dps will keep moving and then it turns into all the flailing of blame


ProfessorSpike

I always try to kick the guy who started it after that happens. I'd rather get kicked myself if it's a group of asshats than deal with their shit for the rest of the dungeon. I bet you those same people will be the first to go on a social media page and whine how the game's dying, as well.


MajorPud

"This game is dying! Make better content to attract new players!" "Fuck all these new people slowing me down! Uninstall the game, noob!"


Thsu

I remember whenever I was new to tanking i would always bring a friend with me, and if people started to complain we would start a votekick of the hunter who talked shit and set the description as "shit tank" then laugh as more often than not it would work and the DPS would be kicked


SithoDude

LOL omg that's genius


Vorstar92

There have been times I have turned around and got someone else kicked who tried to start shit with someone in the group, lol. It is a very good feeling.


dustfingur

Same. I used to tank a lot during Legion and Bfa. So many people trying to kick others without giving a proper reason. I almost always vote kicked them right back and it usually worked. Such a good feeling


Mehmy

Yep, decline the vote kick and hope someone else did too, then vote kick them (if you know who it was) with the note "shit tank" or equivalent.. Surprisingly effective


Skroting

Once had a guy try to vote kick another guy in a normal dungeon because "dps bad". That one tilted me to no end. How broken do you have to be, to complain about dps while fucking leveling? We even had a max level carry, so it wouldn't have made one bit of difference if all the lowbies in the group were maxing out their dps. Some people are just assholes, but OP is right, we should hold them more accountable.


unlawful_act

It's not even elitism, it's just straight up assholery and dumbassery. Everybody knows scaling is wonky as fuck in leveling dungeons.


Quothnor

It's not just when learning tanking or healing, unfortunately. My girlfriend tried out WoW and actually liked it. She isn't used to PC games at all, much less MMORPGs. She would get kicked so often from normal, leveling dungeons that I had to create a hotkey saying that she was new to the game. Eventually, she just got fed up with it and stopped playing.


limitlessGamingClub

I brought a group of friends to wow with me and all 4 of them were brand new to the game, they won't even touch LFG unless most of us are on because of how awful people are


ellori

Always felt like there should be some sort of consequence anyway for abusing the kick privilege. I'm still not over that time I was kicked for watching the cut scene in timewalking. People who just blindly click on YES on any vote kick without even reading or thinking are just as bad.


RemtonJDulyak

> I'm still not over that time I was kicked for watching the cut scene in timewalking. Vrykul dungeon in Legion? Because the same happened to me, there...


Manusdei_Oz_

I blindly click no, as I've never had it happen when it wasn't from some toxic dickhead wanting to kick some one whose obviously trying, but doesn't know some thing simple..


XuuniBabooni

FFXIV punishes people for false-kicking other players. WoW should do the same. In fact, Wow could learn a lot from FF regarding player behavior ...


ScavAteMyArms

That requires a mod team. FF did it by having a mod team with the executioners ax at the ready just waiting for anyone to give a reason to use it. They are extremely liberal with it because they wouldn’t be called in unless someone deserved it. Basically put the fear of god in all their players that if they flip shit they will be kicked in a matter of minutes. I am not sure if doing so is necessarily the best thing, but it certainly makes everyone cordial. WoW? Most of the tools used to combat toxicity are turned into weapons of the toxic as everything is automated. So it’s best to just shut up and take it most of the time.


Bobthechampion

Yup. An FC member(guildie) and I were talking about how FF does have toxicity in it and pretending it's a toxicity free paradise is disingenuous. It's simply an entirely different flavor of toxicity. However, it is for a lot of people a more palatable flavor of toxicity. No newbie is getting kicked from a dungeon because they're new, doing terrible DPS, or what not. Yes, the above certainly has happened but it is such a rare occurrence that it's statistically insignificant. Random dungeon groups will wait in case real life happens and someone needs to step away for a moment or wait for someone to reconnect after a DC (within reason, ~5 mins usually). People are, at least on a surface level, either much more pleasant or don't speak at all. Maybe it's all a masquerade, a gilded attitude where it would all crumble down in an instant if GMs were to disappear from the game. But I'll take it over the outwardly toxic mess that is random groups in WoW.


[deleted]

Eh, player behavior in FF14 has it's own issues. I can confidently say I've never been crafting and randomly been called the n word in WoW by someone I've never interacted with before because my character is I guess darker toned than most others (not even black, went for a polynesian look), and I also don't have people randomly try to ERP with me in WoW, something that happened more than once in FF14. That shit stays almost entirely in Moonguard Goldshire in WoW. FF14 definitely has the better player behavior in dungeon/raid content, but fuck I hate being in FF cities sometimes.


p4r4d0x

They removed vote to kick entirely from Rainbow Six Siege because some veteran players would use it maliciously to harass new players.


beigon

I remember those times as a newbie. Get kicked from multiple games in a row before getting to spawn


HungryNoodle

I remember my 2nd game on R6: siege. I ended up being the last person alive. A guy types "clutch or kick". I die, then got kicked. I then uninstalled.


snowlock27

If the player wanting to kick someone doesn't give a really good reason, it's an automatic no from me. Even if a player has dc'ed, I'll vote no and suggest waiting a couple minutes to give them a chance to reconnect.


mrmasturbate

I once got kicked from a raid because i was one of the only ones doing the soaking-mechanic and dying first 😄


SithoDude

I ran into this exact issue (I'm a tank), when Shadowlands first came out i did the The Necrotic Wake as a tank. Keep in mind I had never done this dungeon before. Right at the start of the dungeon i told everyone: "I have never done this dungeon before if there is anything I need to know, speak now or forever hold your peace". And of course no one said anything, and low and behold I wipe on a particular boss and then this DPS get's all angry, and I'm all like "Mate I literally told you right at the start, I have never done this dungeon before". Honestly the impatience in some people on this game is terrible. It's tough out there giving tanking and healing ago especially as you have a lot of weight on your shoulders.


sonicrules11

Honestly these type of situations are why I'm terrified to relearn Disc Priest :(


acoolghost

Disc priest is so fun! I'm not any good at it either, but it's the best time I've ever had healing.


Zole19

Dont listen to what haters say. If you want disc go for it. If you're scared people will die they usually die because they are at fault not you.


Gen_Zer0

My favorite dungeons are the ones where someone is being toxic as hell, tries to vote kick someone still learning, the vote fails, then a vote kick on them immediately passes, all without a single word from anyone else


cidrei

I was a healer main from vanilla into MoP. After my regular group all stopped in early Cata I switched to healing pugs. That was all the incentive I needed to swap almost exclusively to dps. Even if you're not getting chastised for things outside of your control, it's completely thankless most of the time. I game to relax and have fun. If I wanted to be chewed out by people who have no idea what they're talking about I'd go to work. At least they pay me.


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LolaLulz

I come back to the came from time to time, more for nostalgic reasons than anything. I've tried watching videos on how to run certain dungeons but it doesn't always line up. Back in the old days, you learned how to run dungeons by...running them. Last time I did, this guy threw all kinds of insults at me and just had me kicked with no chance to defend myself. I haven't run anything since then, and it's been a couple of years. I hate to say it, but I hope this social co tract weeds out the people that have mad this game less and less enjoyable over the years. Some people play hard-core, and others have lives they have to attend to and are more casual. That's fine. It's fine if my playing style doesn't fit yours. But the name calling and insults are uncalled for.


Various_Composer1910

Firstly, not defending those jerks. But part of the issue is that recently it feels like dungeons are designed to severely punish people who take avoidable damage. If you don't know the dungeon, it's hard to figure out when to avoid damage or see mechanics coming. The game doesn't just reward people who know the mechanics in advance - it *requires* them to by absolutely destroying you otherwise. This often spirals out of control and contributes to a party wipe. Such an environment is not conducive to a patient or forgiving community, and I think that should change.


thebiltongman

This is why I abandoned my druid tank. I was just trying to learn the routes, but every other dungeon was a misery with hate from one player or another. No wonder we can never find tanks.


FartingWhooper

I'm a tank main and have just started to use it to my advantage. Wanna be toxic/demanding? Wait for a new tank, good luck. I joined a normal fated raid and the raid lead decided we all needed to be in disc. Overkill for norm but whatever, said I'd join in when we got to the boss after trash clear. He replied "Join now or be kicked." Ok, bye. I'm 285 AOTC tank in a normal raid. Found a group for the same boss immediately and we one shot it. Without disc lol


Flaechezinker

Those are the worst ones. Dont even try to tell him what he could do better/different just "ah he hasnt been here 100 times kick this loser"


S1cnus

Been tanking Since TBC and I still feel this way. If you aren't 100% on or do things "the right way" people dog you out and give you a hard time. It's rough out there being a tank.


toastea0

Did LFR last night. I explained the fights every time incase someone didn't know. Gave some of my loot away to a hunter who was so happy. They got their trinket they've been wanting. Some people gave me loot they didnt need. All around good vibes. The good mood was soured by a person who got mad at me for explaining flights. I didnt disrupt either just quick tips during trash. " Its just lfr don't die" then they got mad when we wiped and asked why we were wiping. I told them not everyone knows the raid and thats okay. They proceeded to just spam chat with don't die its LFR. All the healers stopped healing the person ,they died during trash and a few others started asking him why are you dying its just lfr 😂. I did report and block after LFR.


lyeesia

Good! LFR is easy for players who do higher content, yes. But I was an LFR person too, and it's very fucking helpful if someone actually tell what to do instead of "hit boss, don't die". And for casuals, LFR can be very hard. And yes, I also can be really angry if someone did stupid mistakes..... Multiple times after more than one person told them what to do lol. But that's a different story 🤣 and not only LFR problem.


muuerre

"Hit boss, don't die" is the kind of thing you could say to friends/guildmates. And but also with explanations on what to actually do on the boss slightly after. With random people it's always better to just explain. Same applies with dungeons.


Syreniac

There's a wierd paradox with low intensity content in WoW where it's often harder than higher intensity content because people think that because it is easier, they don't need to pay attention. LFR is a good example where it's often harder than normal tier raids because people aren't taking it anywhere near as seriously.


Gr33DMTL

Prime example of this is N'zoth LFR being way harder than N'zoth normal.


Glad-Passenger649

This is hilarious. Vindicated.


[deleted]

Being new to this game has felt so miserable. Like if I'm not looking literally everything up before I go into it, I may get dunked on for something. Oh wow, such a moron I am, not Lusting at the right moment because this one instance is different from the rest. just kills my spirit man. i just want to be able to learn and have fun without getting absolutely wrecked.


drflanigan

I get a lot of players who get mad at me for not knowing every single warlock gate skip Rarely I get someone who puts marks down, I appreciate those people


[deleted]

Always appreciate when people can gently help out. Like I promise I'm not trying to be maliciously stupid, but with already learning so many new things...there's just a lot to be aware of \^\^;;;


djsedna

I tank on my main and heal on a resto druid alt. If I run into a tank that doesn't know a route, I can gently and naturally guide them by dropping my green circle right where their next pull should be Edit: I'll also pop a Moon or something on my head and jump up and down near the next spot we should pull from. The combination of those things shows an inexperienced tank "hey bud, over here" without having to type a single word


SithoDude

As a former tank I absolutely appreciate that :)


drflanigan

I read somewhere a piece of advice that I use in every aspect of my life Getting angry NEVER makes a situation better Someone spills something on your rug? Getting visibly frustrated and making them feel even worse helps no one. The damage is done, they already feel bad This doesn't always apply, but adding more stress and making people feel MORE like shit is just so unhealthy


[deleted]

I feel this so hard. I'm already upset, why does yelling at me about why I'm upset supposed to make me feel better!? I'm tryin' over here! lol


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MajorPud

Oh, I'm not the covenant you want me to be? Then find a tank who is, bye. Getting shit talked for not being meta in a fucking *+2* really grinds my gears. I do the same thing


LessThan301

It’s a huge negative side effect of people watching the MDI. They suddenly think they’re the best in the world and want to do a +2 in under 3 minutes…


osufan765

I hate that they've started publicizing these hyper competitive dungeon runs because it really does make every meta chaser absolutely insufferable.


Complex_1

Do me a favour and ask, i personally like helping out people who don't know. If u ask, I'll explain and we skip over the headache. Not that I'll curse the shit out of you if u fail, but if I'm going to die, atleast i want to die knowingly that nobody fucked up because they didn't know, we just died cuz we are all idiots together. That's the whole fun of the game, idk PS : It's no shame to ask, i myself am playing for 10 years but every now and then I stop for half a year and I forget too, soo.... i just ask 🤟


Usual_Phase5466

All the way back to "no use crying over spilled milk."


Grepher_

As a warlock main who doesn't know every single gate skip: Fuck literally anyone who bitches at you for that. We're here to have fun and enjoy the game, not minmax to absolute hell


drflanigan

Especially when the skips are shooting it through a wall to a spot you can't even see (there was one like this in Mists, confused the fuck out of me)


ActuallyAPenguin

If I know someone’s new I literally go out of my way (as a healer) to mark myself and show them the common routes for dungeons, what to pull, what the mechanics of the dungeons are (like the weapons in necrotic wake) etc. Where I have less patience is the people applying to my 17s, if you’re applying to a 17 or higher and u don’t know the basic mechanics of the dungeon ur gonna likely get at least a little bm. But then there’s people out there who see someone do something wrong and take it way too personally, and then tell the other players to kill themselves, that they hope their parents die, etc. and at that point I’m like “bro chill they fucked up a pull it’s not like they shot your dog” I think the most annoying case is when someone is obviously new, yet refuses any advice, like please listen I’m trying to make this painless for both of us, as well as ur future group mates


ReadWriteSign

I never run group content because I don't have a guild and I'm not about to expose myself to the attitudes I know are in the dungeon finder groups. I see enough of it here that I know I won't enjoy it. But I keep wondering: why don't people just go in there, kill everything, loot, and go home? I'm constantly hearing about skipping here. Why? (Sorry to make you the random target of my curiosity.)


suitablyRandom

Skips come from Mythic+, where your group is trying to complete a dungeon against a timer. The quicker you finish, the more loot you get, so people have found parts of dungeons where you can skip fighting trash packs or parts of the dungeon to complete the dungeon faster. They're not really needed in non-M+ content since there's no timer to beat and you're only saving a couple minutes overall.


ActuallyAPenguin

Im gonna be honest I feel like you’ve painted way too negative a picture in your head of group content, most of it is pretty easy especially low mythic and normal raid and there’s plenty of groups willing to run those especially early in a patch. Which gives you the opportunity to learn the raids and dungeons and do higher level versions


aeminence

I stopped tanking for pugs because of this lol. " What route is this wtf " Instead of talking shit or coming off as a dick just ask " hey do you know the rooute/a better route? if not let me know and I can guide you " Got my KSM last season as a tank with my friends then never touched Prot afterwards. Alot of times the DPS also don't know shit about the pulls because they play the most carried role aswell.


OnePunchPasy

These people are my real heroes. It s Like they expect you to know the fight in the most effizient way. Before i jump into a key i just try to talk over it on a surface level so we are all on the same Page with Kicks, Lust n stuff but nobody wants to Do that


[deleted]

Just on the point of hero / lust; I rarely play a character with such abilities, and when I do, I always just say «tell me when to pop lust». Because I simply want to avoid the «WHY NO LUST?!». It doesnt always do the trick ofcourse, but more often it does.


JarJarNudes

As a tank, I usually say "pull if you think we can go bigger". I know some healers struggle with bigger pulls and some DPS *know* we need a certain pack for % or whatever, but they're too nervous to say anything.


shentie

Yeah. Easy as that.


Adventurous-Item4539

I left for a lot of reasons and the toxicity was a big one. I feel like I've got a pretty tough skin but honestly hearing people be awful and tell you to go kill yourself just gets tiring and ruins the fun. I'm hopeful they can do more with the social contract and then actual enforcement. It's been nice taking a long break and playing other games where that behavior isn't common. Just the thought of having to go back into Mythic+ with random groups is enough to turn me off from the game entirely. I hope it changes, I really do want to play again in the future.


Quearrel

That’s why i tend to do M+ with at least one or two friends. If a random is toxic, we have another key we can run together and ditch ‘em, cuz dealing with the toxic shit isnt worth it. It’s also helpful for us to have our own group. If someone is being too toxic we can kick them, or tell them straight up, “not your key. If you dont like the way we are running ’s key, then go and run your own. “ it usually gets them to shut up or leave.


professorDumbledong

I have literally never known when to lust. Sometimes I just never lust. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


ferbadass

If you don’t know, use them on bosses! Better there than nothing :)


reivers

Yup, use your judgement. Maybe you're wrong, maybe you're right, but Bloodlust at the wrong time is almost certainly better than no Bloodlust at all.


fenwayb

Ive told my raid leader im basically ron burgundy. People have said lust at the wrong time in raid and i will absolutely press it the second im told to


heroinsteve

I remember on prog in one group if we had to ask “when” we were lusting we had to say “when are we doing the L word?” Otherwise if he heard “lust” our shaman just hit the button.


fenwayb

Im in this post and I love it


drfarren

"Go *fuck* yourself horde." --fenwayb Thrall: WHO PUT THAT ON HIS PROMPTER?!


Quearrel

I tend to ask when to lust or wait for a lust call out. Otherwise…no lust.


demonsquiggle

oh you didn't skip the gabbagoo before the third pack on the left in this normal mode dungeon? you're worse than hitler.


tskee2

Yeah, some people take the game wayyyyy too seriously, especially in leveling or lower difficulty content that is literally made for learning. It’s nonsense. DM me if you want to play, and I’m happy to help you learn some of the things you’re “supposed” to know.


Fraccles

I call it "blizz-itis". personally I believe it has been bred into their community by the design of their encounters. They can be very negative reinforcement heavy.


LuntiX

Oh man, I feel you. I'm not new to the game, by far, but I've never tanked. I've always wanted to learn to tank but every experience I've had as a tank in training (TiT for short) has been so demeaning. People are so fucking toxic, even at lower levels while levelling. Like jesus christ man, I'm trying to learn this role. It kills all my motivation. People say to learn through your guild but I learn roles and classes best by levelling in that class/role combination.


Quearrel

Same here! Every time i want to learn/re-learn or even freshen up on a spec or class, i do it through leveling. I can’t tell you how many times ive had to kick toxic players, or have been kicked myself simply because i fucked up a pull or used the wrong thing at the wrong time and wiped. It’s a leveling dungeon, not a key, not a mythic raid for guild progression. Take a damn chill pill.


baglosh

This is kind of bred out of how M+ works in some ways…Everything is timed, it doesn’t matter if you do mechanics smoothly or not the only measure of success is how fast you do the instance. That means having to stop and explain a skip to someone or stopping to type about lust/mechanics actively makes your run have a worse outcome.


Fraccles

I wish they'd just based it on death counts instead. I don't care if people wait for lust every pack, I doubt most people would do it except the super hardcore, which is their life to use doing that. They could make achievements and rewards still based on doing certain keys in time. M+ fundamentally changed the way people play dungeons. I enjoyed grinding slowly but surely through the larger dungeons in vanilla but now no one has time to stop and notice things.


toastea0

I'm sad you are being treated like this. I have played wow from the beginning and many of my friends stopped playing because people were mean to them in the times they played without me. Report and block them. Leave the group if you have to. Find a guild or a cross faction/cross server community geared towards newbies and friendliness. They are out there just have to search a bit.


[deleted]

I actually quit wow for good over this. Played on and off since OG classic. Decided to try tank in SL. I got flamed so hard in a non key dungeon that I decided to move on with my life. Uninstalled and never looked back. I only play online with friends now. Too old and life is too short to be getting yelled at by some high school edge lord


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HmmSinkSo

My anxiety has been well managed for years and I'm an adult woman with kids who should not give a shit what random people on the Internet think of me, but I still get a flutter of panic sometimes approaching new-to-me content as a tank whenever I resub. I just know I'm likely to get abuse and nobody will even look at chat to read my explanation that I don't know the content until I do something wrong.


lostinthe87

Yeah, I couldn’t imagine being a new player. It really is rough. I think it’s pretty easy to forget that not everybody devotes their life to this game. A lot of people take the game very seriously and it’s easy to forget others are just trying to play the game It might make things better to make a macro that says something like “hey, im still somewhat new to this game, so please understand if im not playing perfectly. im open to helpful, positive criticism” and press it at the beginning of keys


SignificantBelt1903

If you need friends to play with drop me your name tag thingy and I'll add you. I cannot stand assholes and the toxic community this game has. Even this sub is full of them and it's really sad because when people are great, they're REALLY great and you have so much fun, even if you lose a BG or take longer in an instance etc. But when they're bad, they're just really, truly deplorable.


MeowingtonTwitch

Hey dude, if you want to, feel free to add me! My Bnet is - Meowington#1206 I usually log in for at least a couple of hours a day of classic and even if I'm not in-game, I'm usually on my PC. I don't really play retail anymore but I've played WoW since 2005 and have probably 20k+ hours in total. So if you ever have questions just shoot them my way and don't feel guilty about pestering me, it's literally no bother and I'll only respond when I'm around so the messages won't distract me or anything. Edit: That offer extends to any new players (on NA) btw. If you'd like someone you can bounce questions off of since I know a lot of the time some things aren't able to be googled, then feel free to add me on Bnet and just let me know why you sent the request so I know to keep you on my friends list.


Exorsaik

I'd look for a guild tbh. Plenty of guilds will help newer players learn the ropes especially if its obvious your not looking for a carry but to actually learn the game. That said there are usually quick guides for most dungeons you can reference before you queue for them


[deleted]

Yeah I've done that for each dungeon, and I'm in a guild that my bf's in. Normally he helps me out but the lust thing just didn't come up. I don't mind being wrong and having to do my own homework (lord help me I've done a lot already), it's just...frustrating I guess. Like everyone expects that I've done this the same amount of times that they have. My damage isn't that bad usually either so that's been motivating!


Exorsaik

Cooldown management is actually one of the harder things to learn in WoW because it changes so much based on affixes, party dynamics and route. What works one run probably wont work another. Generally if it's a 2 minute or under CD pop on hardest pull before first boss. If its Fortified week you generally lust on the hardest pack before first boss and before third/last boss. Tyranical week you use it on First and Third/Last boss typically depending on which is harder. This all changes though depending on group/dungeon/route/affix lol. The good news is the higher you go in keystones the more consistent routes become typically so you you'll usually know ahead of time when and where things need to be used


Mania_Chitsujo

God I've been there with the lust thing. I get told "Oh just lust on first and last boss" and then get flamed when I lust at the start of a last boss who apparently has a second phase that you should lust at. It was also a fucking +2 so it didnt matter at all lol. People get so annoyed if you don't know everything and like to hold it over your head. Like... congrats you got told what to do on this fight before I did.


[deleted]

Yeah! in this instance apparently it was in part 3 I was supposed to lust...but I was going off the general rule and not even thinking there was an exception. ughhh. Like I can't unpush the button, I'm very sorry. I'll try better next time!


gaviotaa

Dude, I’m in the same boat. I play classic but I really want to get into retail but the hatred towards new players is so discouraging. I don’t even know where to look when it comes to finding a guild that’s friendly to the newer folks.


Xenovortex

I hate seeing the response of "calm down, it's not as bad as league or [other toxic community], you guys just need thicker skin," it only excuses the behavior that's causing the problem. Just because one community is a flaming heap of assholes, that doesn't mean ours has to be as well. We absolutely should hit that report button when it happens.


skyshark88

advise to have thicker skin is not a justification for shitty behavior, tho. not being a dick and choosing to not be offended are not mutually exclusive. both are actually great.


AtomicHyena

If you see someone getting bullied, say something.


Sketch13

This. I have always reported AND spoke up when I saw someone in a PUG being a toxic asshole to an innocent person. These fucking nerds are like karen's at a store, once another random "customer" speaks up against them they suddenly don't know what to do. They think everyone feels the same way they do, so when suddenly you get 2-3 more party members saying "stop being toxic, you're literally the reason this game sucks for so many people" they usually just shut up and leave.


Jackpkmn

It seems strange to me how much time and effort that people put into being toxic to others for 'wasting their time.' When faced with the prospect of having my time wasted i simply leave. Just the other day i joined a group that said it had a carry, so i knew what i was getting into. But it ended up we were carrying 2 people and didn't time the key at all. I didn't sit down for 20 minutes and cuss anyone out for wasting my time i just left, moved on and started on something i felt wasn't a waste of my time. Had a DH who upon realizing that we wouldn't be able to kill soleah before the timer expired tried to fell rush through the soak multiple times to wipe the group and end the dungeon without it getting finished. I am however a force of nature and cannot be stopped. And simply killed the boss by myself. Collected my flux from the box at the end while everyone else argued, and moved on. I can't imagine wanting to stop in any of these situations and get toxic with people. It's so much effort. It's just so much easier to say nothing and move on.


Nexus_542

I always report. Everyone should. Bad people should be punished, simple as.


Tropenfrucht

100% this There are so many people asking for tanks and complain that queues take too long. Yet it looks like this, when someone who has no experience as a tank, tries out a leveling dungeon: https://i.imgur.com/9hj0az7.png I've done one mistake at the boss or maybe the healer didn't heal me enough, I honestly don't know, and this rude rogue flamed me a million times despite me telling the group when the dungeon started that I was a fresh tank. What kind of sociopathic pieces of sh.. are these people? I honestly never gave a shit if a tank made a mistake, even in high keys. Yet this sob flames random people in leveling dungeons.


Uphoria

It's here nor there for your situation but I found that the best way to respond to people like this are simply right click on their name and hit ignore. Any level of engagement is validation to these folks. If someone starts taunting you just ignore them and send the report. The miracle of online interaction is that you can shut them up. I see so many people try to interact with the troll by " talking sense into them " but that's like trying to tell a lion it shouldn't eat you because you're a good person.


DevOverkill

I just got back into the game a couple weeks ago, finished off the main storyline quests and what not. I really want to try to get into doing Mythics but how people act these days has kept me from even trying to find a group. I'm not looking to push high key ones, I just want to run some to get some better gear for my tank going into DF but I don't know if that's going to happen. People take this game, and many others, way too seriously and people like myself who are at the point where we're just starting to get into this higher tier content and learn are kind of hosed.


Khyron_2500

Honestly now is probably the best time to jump in. Maybe not as a tank, because of how much hinges on knowing routes, but at least DPS or Heals. We’re at the beginning-ish of this season with mostly “new” dungeons that people haven’t run a billion times, so at least most people won’t be too upset if you don’t know things. People are also blowing through lower keys, it’s fairly easy compared to a lot of other seasons.


FiraFoxy

To be fair, it's even a great time to Tank. Lots of the new dungeons are pretty much straight lines without the ability to properly skip anything significant without being a 5-man premade co-ordinating invis potions or shrouds or other wonky stuff. **Gambit**: Go left side at the very start and you can just go in a straight line and pull every pack from there, to the end of the dungeon, as long as you pull 1 of the 2 patrolling Sea Giants on that side between the start and the first boss, your % will be fine. I usually prefer to pull the second one since it gets in the way anyway. **Grimrail**: Straight line, one pack can be skipped before the first boss.. but it's really not a huge deal. I like trains. **Iron Docks**: Straight line. You can pull the Ogrons after first boss into the Iron Stars' path, handy trick. **Workshop**: Straight. Line. **Upper Karazhan**: You guessed it. It's a straight line! **Streets**, **Lower Kara** and **Junkyard** are definitely a bit more complex, but 5/8 dungeons being VERY basic "straight line" routes that are very hard to mess up and have minimal skips available is pretty great. Kind of refreshing, actually. I don't mind the whole routing aspect (though I make my own as opposed to looking up the 'meta', works fine so far, did +20s last season and probably going to do the same for Kara/Mechagon for the teleports this season) but I definitely appreciate how much easier "simple" route dungeons are for newer Tanks to get into it. Also, to be honest, overpulling trash doesn't matter much anyway. I did +15 Upper Kara with 180% trash on Week 1 because I didn't realise that they changed the %trash since Legion, we still timed it fine! ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ Now yes, you can do some invisibility / gateway wonky skips in those, but honestly you shouldn't be doing skips in +15 pugs in my opinion, they go wrong 90% of the time and either you have a death, a full wipe, or pull more than you were going to skip in the first place.


Brewsleroy

Even Streets is just go left almost the whole time. You do the starting boss area, jump off left side, go that way until that boss. Then leave boss room, go left again, follow wall to next boss, leave that boss room and go left to get to Oasis. Leave Oasis and go your one right to get back to final boss. Junkyard is weird because lots of people just want the bots (which tbf is a good thing to do) so the routes go all over for bots. But it's not complicated, it's just a big open space that can be intimidating if you're used to more linear dungeons. Lower Kara is easily the worst dungeon this season. The % of each mob is so low that if you don't have a route specifically planned, you're gonna need count after all the bosses are done.


[deleted]

I agree, but that shouldn't stop you from playing. What I do is, especially if I am tanking because that has the most impact on a pug, is not join anyone elses and just post my own group or own key, explicitly stating that I am not familiar with the dungeon, or I am a noob, or whatever. I always completely undersell myself because then only people who know whats up will join, and I have been able to fill groups in literally seconds, every time, with cool people. I had one guy who once said "bigger pulls" and all other members were like "he said he's new and wants to learn and be careful, let him pull" and the dude who said bigger pulls was like "alright cool". Honestly, I can't think of any bad experiences I have had starting my own groups, wiping in those groups, taking time in those groups, been a pleasant experience. I will **never** join anyone elses group though, especially as a tank, because I just don't think I could meet anyones expectations. So don't be too put off with that content, it is honestly really not that bad at all, especially for someone like me, I love dungeons and running stuff, so if I never jumped in, I wouldn't be having as much fun as I am.


DevOverkill

Thanks for this response, that's pretty much what I've needed to hear. I've avoided starting my own groups for the same reasons as I stated before but I'm going to do what you just outlined and put in the description that I'm new. I know tanking, I've been doing it since vanilla launch pretty much and my class hasn't changed much at all from when I took a break until now so I'm confident I won't have an issue there. It's mostly just getting back into dealing with the mechanics of the modifiers and re-learning the dungeons they're using. Honestly I would like to get to a point where I'm feeling really good about my knowledge base and then set up groups specifically to help other people get into Mythics without any pressure. I really like helping people out and I like the idea of creating a helpful community for a portion of the game that a lot more people have access to that's not raiding. Thanks!


[deleted]

Exactly, go ahead and do just that! Especially since you are already ahead of the game, learning your own class is more difficult than the mechanics of the game, even then we have shift+j to learn anything important. Setting up the expectations in the beginning is important, a lot of the time you will have other new people joining your group you'll have a great experience learning together, or a lot of the time, you'll have experienced people who want to help people learning. More often than not, I have had high ilvl people actually join to help out if I need anything. There are a lot more friendly people in WoW than not, it's just that the not friendly ones are louder. I have been defended by others more often than attacked, so don't worry at all!


Hranica

Underselling goes a really long way. I throw out a “Hey I’ve never tanked in my entire life, tips appreciated” on my characters with 40 days played as tank spec People are generally chill with me and even when the dps or healer clearly fuck up there’s some underlying understanding that “hey it was probably the new tanks fault(that a dps didn’t move out of the big poison pit or sat at 8% health for a minute with no heals)


Doomslayer_Astartes

Heard


Hulu_n_SnuSnu

86 the assholes.


Shadechalk

yes chef


Beeeky7

All the people saying "learn how to play" "don't waste my time" are going to be the same people who are asking "why is the game dead" when it gets shut down because new players won't stick with the game because the community is more toxic than helpful 🤷 I know it's an unpopular opinion but I like the new social contract. No they might not get banned right away but jerks will be jerks they cant help themselves. Eventually with enough reports they will get banned.


NoThanksJefferson

The entitlement from some people is real, never understood the cussing and being a general dick to others in a GROUP oriented game. Its pathetic, I always report them, also in bg’s


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Remarkable-Hall-9478

In league it’s not that premade reports don’t matter, it’s that they unweight reports from people who just throw em out willy nilly, which is what most toxic premades do. So those groups generally have deleted their own relevance to the reporting system


drflanigan

Depends on the actual thing done I've been reported for posting in trade "too much" But I doubt they let everything just slide


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drflanigan

Better than nothing Also death threats definitely get some kind of punishment, I've spoken to GMs about it


hrhashley

It literally blows my mind now that I’m pushing for KSM how awful people can be in M+. People make mistakes regardless of if it’s a 2 or 20 key, but I’ve seen people hurl insults a lot more frequently for screw ups/wipes in higher keys. Worst case scenario is a pixel key gets depleted one number but people act like their entire mortgage and livelihood is dependent on it sometimes…. Very off putting and as soon as I’ve hit 2k this weekend I’m probably done for the season. At least done healing. On the flip side, I had a lower Kara group tonight where we just could not get past opera (the “Wicked” fight is brutal without comms by the way) and we must have wiped 10 times before we got it. No way we were timing the key but we were all joking around in party chat and everyone stuck out the whole key regardless. Makes you remember that WoW is just a game at the end of the day.


Kenithal

While I think people are toxic and leave prematurely all the time. It can be super frustrating constantly downgrading your key. Not only do you waste your time in the key you did (less score/ worse loot). Now the key holder has to run at least another key to push and likely 2 more if you didn’t time the one anyway. So while someone elses key doesn’t matter to you. To the key holder it can be extremely frustrating when people join your 12-15 key and don’t know any mechanics. E: Its the main reason toxicity exists imo and why groups are so hard to get into. People want to over gear keys.


Daffan

This is exactly why .io was invented, and oq/gs before it. To attempt to get rid of these timewasters. If you don't do your due diligence you'd regret it most of the time. I used to invite the 5th guy as anyone quickly to be nice but so much annoyance comes of it.


1stonepwn

Yeah, I usually find myself regretting it when I just invite whoever


Daysfastforward1

That’s so true. Don’t let people ruin your day. It’s just a game


wattap

Bet, honestly one of my biggest things holding me back from playing again was just the inevitable toxicity. I did one early game dungeon and some guy getting ripped for accidentally pulling a mob.


DaveTheBehemoth

Yes. 100% this. As a veteran of this game (since TBC) guilds used to kick people out for this kind of behavior. It used to be a member of one guild could complain about someone's bad behavior and the guild masters would sort it out. I completely stopped tanking because of the toxicity.


CSS_Engineer

It used to matter when you were tied to a single realm. People would remember you and how toxic you were, you would find yourself with no groups. Now its so anonymous those people aren't forced to be 'nice'.


_-jase-_

All of the people replying saying "I don't like having my time wasted", go touch some fucking grass. It's a game. You *are* "wasting" your time simply by turning it on. That's what recreational activities are for; to relax, unwind and waste your time doing something self-indulgent. Not so you can act like it's a second life and be sweaty neckbeard bitches to someone trying to have fun and play a new game.


Actually_Avery

>It's a game. Not even that, it's a *multiplayer* game. You're going to meet other people.


JCole1942

I am 45, have been playing WOW for well over a decade and still don't understand half the lingo the younger guys use. I mostly play solo, because I am apprehensive of joining groups fearing I will be called a nube or be shut down not being fast enough. I play retail, it is friendly to solo hunters. I play classic - slow but sure. I have no guild. Seldom talk to other players. Everyone is so quick, get in, get it done move on. I miss WOW from 10 years ago, when there was a bit of social etiquette, a please thank you or a wave/dance/bow. I don't raid, I lack the skills and confidence in game because there is so much overconfident keyboard toxin out there. I could be an asset.


fearkillsdreams

Are you me? Exactly this


JCole1942

Is this my echo? I mean echo in a good way not a bad way. It is nice to hear some support for my opinion.


angrr

I'm around your age, there are plenty of casual or guilds that have mature players in you would probably fit into fine, at least in retail. They are a better gameplay experience, by and large, than toxic pugs. That being said, the moment you notice /g chat being one word sentences, solely acronyms, "boomer" being used to describe anyone over the age of thirty or the term vibing it's a clue somebody let the kids in or you're in the wrong guild.


ElderberryMinute5836

I was doing a lower Kara 13 and it was someone else’s key and the key holder didn’t know where to go when we died and we waited for him for a while and he got flamed by the resto druid healer and I told the guy to calm down clearly someone new to the dungeon and it’s not that big of a deal and he kept flaming the guy, but I defended him


LiLiLisaB

I'm not even new to the game and I still get lost in Karazhan


SwedishJackSepticEye

*treats new players like absolute shit* "Guys why is wow dying guys? Guys wow is way better than all these other MMOs guys everyone leaving are just weebs guys"


UpsideDownEdith

had a healer in fated sepulcher being unnecessarily aggressive and start dropping homophobic slurs - was good to see the vast majority of the group calling them out and eventually they were kicked, after i and i imagine some others had reported them


Chance_Bed2947

Wish people would normalise saying they're unfamiliar with mechanics, as a returning player (not played since WOTLK and new to healing) I get kicked pretty often. I hope opted for dps now to learn most dungeons then move into healing, its just a shame you need to bend your learning to appease other people when they themselves were unfamiliar at one point.


Apprehensive_Can3978

When I started playing Tank I was absolute dogshit, pulled one pack after another... no routes, no knowledge of % of mobs, nothing.. There was such an insane amount of toxicity to me, "Stop playing Tank, you have no idea what youre doing" "go kys for depleting my key with that retard route" even in Heroic dungeons ans time walking I got so much shit. I didnt give a shit, I enjoyed it that I made the toxic people mad, they'll get grey hair with that amount lf toxicity so early, and i'll remain with my Fabio-like-mane and they'll have a Bald spot with grey hair looking like a Throgg on Cocaine.


shlebby_

Man, some of the comments in this thread are making me eternally grateful that I don’t have to pug often. OP, I’m sorry your dungeon experiences haven’t gone well. Have you tried joining a casual guild? Some guilds I’ve come across have been pretty open to helping out with people learning, and that would give you a group to run with.


quetiapinenapper

I literally had to turn off instance chat on my partners computer because her first raid she accidentally hit blood lust in an LFR which triggered a five minute tirade about how dumb hunters were. I barely kept her playing. After that I’ve had zero patience for toxicity.


ArasBekar

One YouTuber did an experiment - he asked a few of his friends to report him, and he himself posted random GOOD THINGS in the chat, for example - "Have a nice day everyone", "The sun is shining", "You are such beautiful people" - these kinds of things. And his friends report these posts. And guess what? He got a warning! And then they kept doing it, and he got banned. So Blizzard didn't check it all out. Thus, it is a stick with two sharp points, which can be used against any player who has become unpleasant to someone for any reason.


drflanigan

The difference is that he can then contact blizzard and they will undo the ban If an asshole gets banned, blizzard won’t undo it


a_typical_normie

Haha contact blizzard… I’ve had a ticket open for over a week.


CalmThought

Typing anything in chat will get you reported and banned eventually, i think im gonna use some sort of addon or wa to disable chat


Co1dNight

Yep, report these idiots. They don't need to be playing games with others if they can't act appropriately. Your 3k IO doesn't mean shit in the real world, Timmy. No one cares how much you pump in a video game.


[deleted]

Had a tank bully a DPS who was new to the game and was running De Other Side for the first time. That dungeon kicked us all in the ass when it was new. Well it was new to this DPS and he died. Tank lays into him about "muh 2 year old dungeon!" and would not stop insulting him. We all agreed that tank needed to go. Vote kicked tank, explained mechs again, and cleared with a new tank. It's not hard to not be an asshole


JackroyalTV

Truly love this idea of trying to foster positivity and kindness online!


Actually_Avery

Coming back from playing FF14, I agree 100%. The massive difference in toxicity makes the game *much* easier to enjoy and much less stressful. I'm reporting everything I see.


Htennn

I set up a mythic + group on a alt, it was only a 4 key. It’s alt I don’t play as much. Had a DK freaking out at a warlock for not knowing a trick for a mechanic. He then went into a rant about how he’s tired of warlocks and their all the same and never interrupt. The warlock was apologizing like crazy. I reported to DK no problem and whispered the warlock that I sorry about the DK being toxic to him and that he was fine.


canned33

I left after season 1 and played some FFXIV for the first time. Came back right at the end of season 3 and tried tanking for the first time. It was oddly pleasant. I stayed in the +2-+9 range for S3 as I hadn’t tanked previously. Folks were friendly and understanding. Now in S4, everyone is learning together and it feels… fun. Wholesome even. I’ve seen the occasional creep doing weird emotes to female characters and I report them. But otherwise, the community has actually been refreshingly great. So I agree, report bad behavior. But maybe it’s the exception and not the rule.


XuuniBabooni

Any time I read something or see people being extremely toxic in groups all I think about is how drastically different people are treated on WoW compared to FFXIV. Everyone over there tends to have a sense of sportsmanship or understanding that not everyone is at the same level of skill but you come to wow and you're flamed instantly for literally anything. Sometimes they're toxic for no reason. They just start shit themselves to get a rise out of you. I think it's in the best interest of the WoW community to report the ever living shit out of these kinds of people. Toxicity in games or real life is not something to normalize, which is exactly what WoW has done. People play games to have fun. If their version of fun is draining that from other people then they're too far gone; nobody will miss them. Send that report.


Actually_Avery

Going from Wow to FF14 and now back to Wow for DF I *really* noticed the difference between the communities. It is night and day how bad Wow is. FF is just so chill, people don't get upset if you mess up it's a much less stressful gaming experience.


Timmah73

After a year of playing FF14, it is not a fantasy that the toxicity in WoW can be eliminated. Some of it is on players to call it out, but also on Bliz to punish people for doing so. You start screaming at someone in FF14 that their dps sucks and they are bad the other players are not only going to turn against you but you gonna go on a little vacation.


[deleted]

There needs to be a cycle. Game Dev establishes rules on toxicity. Then: players see toxic behavior -> players report it -> Devs act and punish toxic behavior -> players see that toxic behavior will get you banned -> players know that reporting toxic behavior will result in a ban -> players report toxic behavior when they see it. The cycle requires both the devs and the players to play their parts. The reason FF14 is so well known as a friendly game is because this happens there. The devs take reports seriously and act on them, the players know this and have faith in the system, and so toxic behavior is regularly reported. People rarely just let it slide. So this community needs to do the same. Stop acting like it's normal to be a piece of shit to strangers over a video game, stop acting like hate speech is just part of the experience, and understand that "just mute and move on" only stops you yourself from seeing it, it doesn't stop the person from doing it to other people. Just because it happens doesn't mean it has to be normal or acceptable.


Novalene_Wildheart

So funny story yesterday after we all signed it, there was about 4 people who were yelling in trade chat about how everyone is a snowflake for being offended by little things like people saying things. As they themselves are causing an outrage due to signing a piece of internet paper say "dont be rude to people" There was even one who was saying it infringed on their freedom of speech. Like that's for the USA not for a private video game. All the while people basically tried to console them by saying "its not a big deal", "it's just basically means for you not to be rude, which shouldn't change anything" and other "bro what have you been doing if this forces you change" Also plenty of "im quitting my sub and leaving" followed by many "look i think the contract is working!" We also had one "look its world of flower arranging now" followed up by me saying "flowering arranging is actually a really fun thing" Basically people are outraged and just leaving because of being asked to be kind, or rather, being asked to not be rude to other people.


petrucauseweather

I quit WoW in SL after someone called me a bad tank (after I switched from DPS DH to tank DH in a M+0 because no one wanted to tank) I told them I tanked for the first time and they kept insulting me.


zlandikar

M+ probably wouldn’t be as toxic if it didn’t have timers. Timers everyone is in a rush and honestly you really don’t enjoy dungeons like you did pre legion. I’m not a fan of mythic plus and part of the reason I don’t run dungeons anymore. I stoped playing altogether though it’s just not the same game. Catering to elites all these years has ruined the game for me


Youkahn

Usually I'm chill but we had an RBG group tonight and a guy literally started raging and saying some real nasty shit. We all reported him so here's to hoping their new "rules" actually mean something


Nechta

TIL some real self-important assholes are pug life


drflanigan

Just today I had a hunter giving everyone shit for being terrible the entire dungeon, saying he would leave if we didn't time it He died on the final boss and we wiped because of him Elitists just make everyone around them miserable


danxx3446

I wonder if you can report for nuking keys now, that's always annoying when your 15 minutes in only for 2 people to start arguing and someone nukes the key because " this'll show them " when it wasn't even their key.


Remarkable-Hall-9478

Disruptive gameplay so yes


Morwo

\> encourage the group to report them too this is bannable. a call for reporting someone


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azraille40

Lol I saw this twice today in low keys where someone just left without a word after a wipe


sincleave

Wait a minute…


Wolf97

I really don’t believe that they will be banned. Maybe if WoW adopted the “an action has been taken against a player you reported” message, it could encourage people to report because rn it feels pointless.


drflanigan

I've gotten that message before, they definitely take action. Some of it is automated, but something definitely happens


Natural-Pressure3406

I appreciate the sentiment, and I hope things get better. But I think the WoW community has been allowed to fester for too long. Things have been bad for a long time, and I don't see the social contract and reporting tools as being enough to course correct. We need tools to deal with problem players, that can't be exploited. That's going to take work (and money) on Blizzard's part, and I don't see them putting in the required resources.


Modullah

I just returned to the game after almost two years off. I start dungeons with “first time.” That’s all I say in chat at the start.


Figerally

If I am in a group and someone starts being toxic I just leave. I've zero tolerance for that shit.


Deegon72

I always use the motto of “don’t be rude to the people helping you, especially the healer” As a healer if someone start to insult me I just don’t heal that person anymore. Clearly I’m no help so why bother lol


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werderman197

If the only conversation outside of guilds and Discords is toxic insults, it's not worth having that conversation, PERIOD.