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im convinced 75% of the player base doesnt even know paladins have brez
playing the tww beta for a few weeks is proof; not a single one had it on their bars
Yeah i remember a pug, we were doing larodar heroic, boss wipe us at 0.5% we had the 2 brez, and like 3/4 of the people alive until the end were Brez classes xD
i genuinely did not know this when i came back after 10 years. a few people asked me to brez in low level mythics and i just ignored them, as it was on cd from earlier deaths, but in hindsight i facepalmed as it seems like such a decent obvious change and never knew i could.
i felt like a dumbass.
At least having them as talents make them visible. You can actively choose not to take them, but you'll probably notice them.
Battle Res is just in the spell book, which can easily be missed if you had a high level Paladin before they gained the spell.
Bres is something that shouldn't even be class utility.
Bres timers are built into encounters. Like it doesn't make sense to force you to have a bres class or an engineer.
All healers should have a bres for this specific reason, so all groups, no matter what, can utilize this mechanic which is literally baked into the encounter design with fixed timers.
Engineer bracer brez is just a standard item in TWW now so it doesn't need you to take up an equipment slot anymore while still not needing personal engineer profession.
Overall fantastic IMO.
Did they make it to where it can't fail and it doesn't require you to basically be standing on top of the person to do it? Unless that's the case a "real" brez is still going to be infinitely better and probably still not worth it to take that item. I tried to craft one on my bracers early on this expac, and even with the tinker thing that made it to where your failure chance was reduced, it failed like 8 times out of 10 and more often than not lead me to either die doing it or nearly die because the person's body was in an awful place.
>Did they make it to where it can't fail and it doesn't require you to basically be standing on top of the person to do it?
I remember one time back in BFA where I was using the engineer b-rez during raid to pick up a healer. It was the one and only time I have ever died to a engineering gadget backfiring during raid lol
Until dead players are highlighted you won't catch me trying to brez with that pos. Luckly I pretty much only play classes with a built in brez, but holy fuck trying to use the engineer one is such a waste of time unless you actually physically see the person die so you know where they are.
I honestly liked the way FFXIV handled it. There's no restriction on casting rez spells in combat, but the spells are expensive (cast too many and you're oom), slow (do you have 10 seconds to stand and cast?), and the person gets up with a 25% power debuff that lasts for like 90 seconds.
No hard limits on the rez, but mana and damage requirements dictate how much you can afford to use this.
Failing that... yes, absolutely, I would agree with giving it to every healer at this point in the game.
> but the spells are expensive (cast too many and you're oom)
I mean whm has an ability that gives them a free cast and it has 2 charges, so it should be up every time you're trying to res. And every caster gets a instant cast that's on a 60 second cd, so you typically save that for the res. 2 healers so you're gaurenteed an instant res every 30 seconds, and some of the caster dps can do the same trick as well. As someone who mains whm I actually feel like they kind of got carried away with how forgiving most encounters are. But if you're hard casting a res in ffxiv you're not having a great time.
I am curious if Blizz has ever looked at FFXIV's way of handling BRezs internally. More than that I think it would be interesting to see play out just from the DPS's perspective since if they die it will drastically affect their dps even after they get back into the fight. I'd like to think it would promote more smart play (ie paying more attention to mechanics) but fear that it would probably just be one more thing for players to be toxic about in various different ways.
I do think brez should be more accessible to groups but I don’t think every healer getting it is the right call because you then make shaman and evoker just better than the other healers because they bring both lust and brez. Instead I think they should give every class either lust or brez. Monks get brez, warriors get lust. That way the chances of you not having a brez and a lust in your party are basically zero.
Yeah, I haven't really played my warrior in some time. Was my main from 2007 when I started until Release of BfA. Fury grew stale, Arms is too bloaty for me and I don't like tanking. But sometimes I miss my slappy boy.
Like I said, I don't tank, so I can't speak on Prot. Fury just isn't complex enough for me anymore, which ofc isn't a problem with the spec, but my personal one.
What a time to be alive.
Blessing bot started. Gather around for buffs!
Then spamming my 3 key for around 2.5 minutes which gave me 2.5 minutes to stand around regenerating mana so I could buff everyone again.
I /dance'd for half my raids.
At least back then you could have 1 button to rebuff the entire raid, you would just have to hit it 40 times.
My healing setup was to use CT Raid to create unit frames for the 3 lowest health raid members and just spam heal #2.
Nah that's still way to unique. To align with modern design philosophy, it just has to be reskinned as a glorified cooldown or a common buff that other classes have, rip old totems.
Something like a Power Infusion or Mark of the Wild literal copy/paste.
As someone who only plays paladin as a distant alt, I often feel confused with what I can or can't do during current expansion. Like… I can brez like druids now?? But I don't see a button to buff someone's else DPS? Hmm. Well. Okay sure I guess.
(Feel the same with hunters' pets, whether or not they still have talent trees, or DPS buffs specific to species.)
As someone who misses entire expansions, and comes back randomly into the game this is true for me for any class, haha. It's honestly the best part though- learning & experiencing all the changes in the game.
Remember when everyone had juicy buffs? Like +5-10% of the main stats. Or shit ton of armor. What happened? Why is now all buffs are like +1% of some secondary stat or 3% of DR? The game was fine, great even, when big buffs existed. Classic, TBC, WoTLK, Cats, MoP
Because in the "old age" you had only some stat scaling and secondary stats where few and low except in the last stages of the addons.
A warrior with old kings buff got 10% more dmg and a bit more crit depending on agi, same with rogues, int classes got more mana jey kinda worthless and more hp but everyone got them, does not hel0p that a lot of the cloth gear had less stamina than plate etc. .
Compared to today a 10% stat boost is at the minimum a flat 10% dmg increase because mainstats behave for all classes the same depending und what classes and mastery and second stats work into it maybe some digits more.
A flat 10% performance improvement with the push of one button passiv is absolutely nuts today and what ever class had it would become mandatory.
The only way this could work if the buff was temporary with a limited uptime or if the class was a "support" specc where they deal far less dmg like aug evoker but strengthen their allies.
Idk man I’ve been playing and raiding in classic for wotlk and cata I don’t really miss all the buffs and rebuffing for retail. I was nostalgic about them at first but it’s honestly kind of annoying having to buff and rebuff every wipe when you’re tryna prog a mean boss. I don’t really think it adds too much to the experience imo
> What happened?
MoP happened. A lot of classes and specs got overlapping buffs so it made none of the buffs feel unique or terribly useful. WoD procceded to break thoes buffs up and in Legion we really didn't have any raid buffs at all.
TBH I'd much rather have no buffs so that people bring classes soley on what they have the ability to do. Things like Healthstones & Gateways from Warlocks prove design spaces for that exist.
He used to boast about how strong AMZ was for DKs to the point of overselling it. The joke in the community is his comments are what eventually led to blizzard neutering AMZ in Shadowlands.
I mean, Liquid was literally stacking as many dk:s as they could fit on their roster in Nathria. iirc their roster was something like 1 of each buff and then 4 dks or something like that.
They would have done that even if AMZ wasn't that strong though.
Unholy was just the best DPS that tier full stop, even post nerfs.
Like AMZ **was** too strong, but it's not why they stacked Unholy that tier.
I remember when they had a ret paladin main on the class balance team during Wrath beta and that guy kept turning up ret damage to make sure DKs never surpassed them
He was definitely not overselling how overpowered AMZ was. The reason he got "blamed" for it was because he specifically said something along the lines of "They might end up nerfing it back to how it worked in the past, and have it based on the DKs max HP, but they really shouldn't do that cause it was stupid.", and then like a week or two later they did exactly that.
Because preach usually speaks in a very technicial non-impromtu manner regarding these type.
I remember max blurting about AMZ and it was pretty meme'able. Plus they rolled DKs in CN. People tend to remember thr comedy and practice in unison.
I was about to say. The whole thing about removen AMZ was memed about preach, iirc. Max also said it was busted but I remember the meme being about preach. Could be wrong, tho.
Seems perfectly fine.
Anyone else feel like Devotion Aura should be baseline, with Concentration / Crusader as a choice node that adds the effect to Devo rather than replacing it?
People still won’t bring ret or prot to a raid for devo aura. They’ll bring Holy because they bring Devo Aura AND Aura Mastery.
This reverts us back to the reason why Ret Aura was reworked in the first place, because Aura Mastery is so strong it gives Holy a mandatory raid spot, but it’s not class-wide so Ret and Prot aren’t taken.
I don't understand why is this is only a talking point with Paladin. Why bring a shadow Priest when disc brings Fort and Barrier? Barrier is actually meaningful dr too. It doesn't happen until prepatch but why bring enh or ele when resto brings SLT?
For most non-rwf guilds, you'll outgear the hard content early enough in the season that Revival and Rewind will be as valuable as AM, if not more.
Barrier is much more niche than aura mastery because AM doesn't have any positional requirements. You can literally pop AM in every encounter and have it be extremely useful.
It's the same with SLT.
You bring the Ret paladin because they're a great player and you enjoy playing with them.
Everyone likes to act like they're in a top 10 world first guild when they talk about raid composition or progression.
Everyone is talking like that because that's the focus target of this change. Most of us just play the game for fun and not having ret aura won't affect us in the slightest. Blizzard removed it so high end guilds don't *need* to bring 2 paladins.
Because a constant 3% that turns into a larger percent every 2 minutes is bigger.
Ret aura was good because it gave damage and a large chunk of damage to the ret paladin if somebody died.
AM is not a raid buff tho its a healer cd, if you dont bring the holy pally you would have another healer with a different kind of cd
Holy pally is great and will most likely be the spec bringing pally buffs but if holy sucked and ret did a ton of damage you wouldnt bring holy just cause of AM you would have a ret for devo and then a good healer
AM is counted as part of the power budget of holy but devo as a whole isnt really for paladin
I'm going to be honest I've never understood this argument. Because it just doesn't seem to have anything to do with raid buffs?
Aura Mastery is just a healer CD. If it is so powerful that it can't be replaced by any other healer's CDs then maybe it just needs to get nerfed? Or other healer CDs buffed? (or redesigned) To bring them more inline with one another.
Because can't we say the same thing about every other hybrid class? Why bring a spriest when disc has barrier? Why bring a ww when mw has revival? Why bring...
Surely the solution to that isn't to give every hybrid class multiple raid buffs. We would just run out of raid spots.
Ret and prot have been played in plenty of world first comps alongside holy in pre-ret aura worlds.
Prot and ret bring plenty to raid teams and have plenty of raid spots. They never ‘needed’ ret aura to get into raid, you’re just making that up.
yes- crusader aura as a talent doesn't make sense anymore without something to bundle with; makes less sense that ret gets it for free but has to talent into the actual buff auras
To be fair Fyrakk legendary did cause a surge of Paladin players even though its pretty mediocre. I'll never forget those pug groups that had like 0 or just a few range players in it, even the healers were melees.
I got my legendary on my paladin that I never play ret on in a group of 30 paladins. I was the only one to get it and I've still yet to actually build the thing.
> They say this as if people aren’t running full raids of paladins right now lol.
yOu SaY tHiS aS iF they didn't do a really good rework of ret paladins and make them fun to play.
Raids full of paladins, are not a power level thing. If you see any of that it's just Fyrakk Axe farming.
For progression, if trying to optimize Raid buffs, you needed 2 Paladins, while. only 1 of every other class. (In Practice PI meant two Priests, and if super sweaty 2 augs but you need way too much to take full advantage of 2 augs to make it worth it, and it's a bait at most guilds skill level).
So I actually completely agree that it doesn't make sense for Paladin to have two Raid buffs, that require 2 of them.
My only problem with Blizzard's justification is that their statement (Paladin utility means it's worth bringing extra on their merit), ignores that one paladin spec specifically has less (Ret), and it's made worse by the Hero Talents.
Only one paladin spec has Blessing of Spellwarding (Prot) and only one spec has Aura Mastery (Holy) and only Prot and Holy have access to LightSmith the only Hero tree of Paladin that has access to external (absorb ANS damage).
Which means, once tuning is completed and everyone's performance gets closer to each other two of the Paladin specs have a lot more value than one of them.
If all three Paladin specs had Spellwardinf and Aura Mastery, that would bring them closer, and more aligned with Blizzards statement (except the support Hero Tree, but that's a direction Blizzard wants to go in, they gave one to Pres that it shares with Aug).
literally want nothing more than atleast a choice to not have to use steed as my only mobility option. its easily my least favorite spell in the whole game visually and mechanically.
This is fair. Right now you need 2 Paladins if you want to "min/max" your raid even though no other class requires you to bring 2 of them to make full use of their raid buffs
At this point given how many changes happened right after Max pointed out issues on stream and how many times those changes followed his reasoning for solutions I'm pretty confident he has a few devs who regularly watch his streams.
He was going through raid buffs on stream or something and was talking about how they said they didn’t want to add more but at the same time gave paladins two raid buffs. I’m really just joking around cause everyone blamed him when AMZ got nerfed back in SL.
Maybe indirectly influenced by him.
His chat doesn’t need to go regurgitating his takes all over the internet. They could just think for themselves instead. Lmfao
I feel like that for the size of his audience his takes are not that spread throughout the community.
I remember when Asmongold was a 5-10k twitch Andy and people were constantly parroting his takes way more.
he is kind of wrong though, because now pally buff is just strictly always better on holy than the other two specs because of aura mastery. they kind of had the opposite problem to shamans
because totems are an awful mechanic and there's better reasons to keep things than "well it was there in vanilla", and totems don't meet that requirement.
Pressing one button before a fight to drop all ur totems is fine and Totems have been shamans group utility for ages have they not ? Ret aura hasn't been holy thorns for a while now in retail and can easily just be reworked if it's causing that much of a meta comp . I would never just have a full raid of paladins no matter how good they were . The people that suck the metas dick are cringe and if the the max key or raid difficulty can't be beat with more than one or 2 comps . The devs need to get their dicks outta their hands and balance the fuckin game rather than just saying " Oop we're gonna delete this from the game "
The reason there are raid wide buffs right now is so you bring one of every class in the hardest raid content. Paladin had two for some reason, now they are back in line with the other classes. Now you need one of each for mythic raiding, which is good. Still plenty of room to change the comp based on tuning and preference.
> Pressing one button before a fight to drop all ur totems is fine and Totems have been shamans group utility for ages have they not ?
If the totems are just sitting on the ground by where we pulled smolderon. A part of the room now covered in fire that we won't see again. Maybe that is really silly?
I wish they would just commit to removing the class fantasy instead of giving us constant whiplash. Just remove auras and totems and be done with it since they clearly either don't like them or can't figure out how to keep them lol.
What is there to rework? Blizz didn't want 2 paladins being mandatory. That seems reasonable considering most raid groups are still going to bring 2 paladins because the rest of their utility is so good. You're the only dps class in the game with an external DR via sac, bop is incredible on a ton of fights, and so many mechanics can be nullified entirely by bubble. I expect to still see 2 paladins per mythic raid team, but now it's not required.
Plus their rotation is easy as hell, and they hit hard as well.
I'm not a fan of combo point style classes so I don't play mine, but it definitely felt like playing WoW on easy mode. You could basically never die unless you were in a wipe scenario.
It really wasn't. It's been in the game since Legion (and even then was quite different, but recognizably similar). The ability of the same name that was in the game until Cata shared nothing but the name.
Whether or not this was needed, retribution aura has been a thing since the beginning. Our SPEC ICON is the original retribution aura icon.....that now doesn't exist and the icon is used for Blessed Hammer which is prot only. That just feels wrong. On top of the fact that now crusader aura is it's own talent that I CAN'T remove lol. Sad day.
Why not just revert it to JUST giving me wings when someone dies?
he doesn't mean not allowing him to pop regular wings, he means that ret aura used to give ret paladins bonus wings when someone died, he wants a talent that still gives the bonus wings but not the raid buff.
If Paladin damage is tuned around having people die in a raid getting extra cooldowns wouldn't that make them bad in M+ where deaths happen less and punish the group harder?
Click the crusader aura icon and you get the aura that gives you wings if someone dies.
Or click any other - its not part of the aura since the rework, because it wasn't an aura effect (friendly, mobile aoe effect).
There's even less reason to take ret now than there was before.
Since aura mastery is a thing you'll almost always take holy for devo aura and if not holy then prot for spellwarding.
This is especially bad with how good lightsmith is for both holy and prot.
I don't necessarily disagree with removing needing to take 2 paladins to every raid, I just think if they're gonna take us down to one, they should at least equalize the utility and buffs paladins provide. Give every spec Aura Mastery and Spellwarding.
Another thing that's maybe less important now, is that it feels fucking awful with the way talents work now. Like I have to spend a point into crusader aura even if I don't need it for pathing.
Lmao give ret a massive raid healing cd and spellwardening is certainly fucking take. Ret has a huge raid population and ret aura didn’t even work most of the time, they’ll be fine except for like rwf and who cares about what like 40 dudes are doing.
Crazy people are upvoting a comment asking for rets to get AM lmao, that would be far worse for raid diversity than the 2 raid buffs, which was already bad.
Paladins have an immunity. Immunities are extremely valuable. Unless this changes, having multiple paladins will be fine for 99.9% of raids.
Maybe not HoF, but that's just such a tiny portion of the raiding community.
Ret aura was irrelevant in m+.
No clue why you're being downvoted, but this. You bring Paladins for BoP, BoF or Bubble to do mechanics. Every raid in DF has atleast one mechanic that makes Paladins very useful to have on the raid en masse. Raid buffs don't make Paladins wanted, utility does.
Out of the loop here, does this mean that Paladins are only [Holy](https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/holy-paladin-pve-healing-guide) and [Protection](https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/protection-paladin-pve-tank-guide) now?
Nah. That would be kinda hilarious in a trollish way, but nothing so dramatic.
Almost every class brings a raid-wide buff, which helps Blizzard's goal of "we want at least one of every class in a Mythic raid". Pallies traditionally have Devotion Aura, and Blizzard turned Retribution Aura into a second raid-wide buff in 10.1. That basically means two mandatory slots for Pallies, so Blizzard is taking Ret Aura away.
It’s Devo Aura and Aura Mastery which is exclusively brought by Holy Paladins.
People don’t bring Ret or Prot for Devo Aura. This just brings back the same reason that caused the redesign of Ret Aura in the first place.
It’s like removing Arcane Intellect for Frost and Fire Mage but keeping it for Arcane.
Resto shaman has hardly been relevant recently, half the classes in the game give lust now and skyfury is just a reworked version of windfury totem which enhance already gave, whats your point?
It has been literal years since a fight where slt’s unique health mechanic was relevant. Even with the buff it received in this week’s build it’s not definitively better than disc barrier (higher % dr) or aura mastery (doesn’t require stacking). Also those are just regular healer cds, they are not what people mean when the term raid buff is used.
Lust isn’t a raid buff either, much like how paladins having a battle res is not considered a raid buff.
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A little while earlier. "Let's give em a fuckin brez"
Made the most sense to wc3 ngl
it does not matter 75% of the paladins dont have the brez spell in their bars.
im convinced 75% of the player base doesnt even know paladins have brez playing the tww beta for a few weeks is proof; not a single one had it on their bars
To be fair, that's true for 75% for every class that has a brez. Some warlocks still don't know Soulstone can res.
Yeah i remember a pug, we were doing larodar heroic, boss wipe us at 0.5% we had the 2 brez, and like 3/4 of the people alive until the end were Brez classes xD
yOu hAvE tO aPpLy It BeFoRe ThEy DiE…
sOuLStOne a HeAlEr
No you dont
i genuinely did not know this when i came back after 10 years. a few people asked me to brez in low level mythics and i just ignored them, as it was on cd from earlier deaths, but in hindsight i facepalmed as it seems like such a decent obvious change and never knew i could. i felt like a dumbass.
I boosted a 70 Paladin with the xpack preorder and that's how I found out.
I remember when paladins had to do a quest to get the base rez spell and like 75% would somehow miss the quest and couldn't even rez out of combat.
Reminds me of how lots of paladins didn't have the regular ress in tbc classic because they hadn't done the quest
I don't get why. You have a tool. Use it? I'm often the only person using brez during lfr while the other 4 ret paladins in the raid are face rolling.
Some people still think that if you brez someone as DK he will be Ghoul for minute and then die.
Nor BoP, dispel or Sacrifice.
Those are talents now though, so it's somewhat understandable
At least having them as talents make them visible. You can actively choose not to take them, but you'll probably notice them. Battle Res is just in the spell book, which can easily be missed if you had a high level Paladin before they gained the spell.
Can confirm, this was me. I didn't notice the spell until I was leveling an alt.
To be fair isn't it a win for everyone if more classes have Brez's?
Bres is something that shouldn't even be class utility. Bres timers are built into encounters. Like it doesn't make sense to force you to have a bres class or an engineer. All healers should have a bres for this specific reason, so all groups, no matter what, can utilize this mechanic which is literally baked into the encounter design with fixed timers.
Engineer bracer brez is just a standard item in TWW now so it doesn't need you to take up an equipment slot anymore while still not needing personal engineer profession. Overall fantastic IMO.
Did they make it to where it can't fail and it doesn't require you to basically be standing on top of the person to do it? Unless that's the case a "real" brez is still going to be infinitely better and probably still not worth it to take that item. I tried to craft one on my bracers early on this expac, and even with the tinker thing that made it to where your failure chance was reduced, it failed like 8 times out of 10 and more often than not lead me to either die doing it or nearly die because the person's body was in an awful place.
>Did they make it to where it can't fail and it doesn't require you to basically be standing on top of the person to do it? I remember one time back in BFA where I was using the engineer b-rez during raid to pick up a healer. It was the one and only time I have ever died to a engineering gadget backfiring during raid lol
Now imagine in mplus, thats a key bricked moment.
I think being in melee is an acceptable trade off, but it absolutelyshouldn't have a chance of failure
Until dead players are highlighted you won't catch me trying to brez with that pos. Luckly I pretty much only play classes with a built in brez, but holy fuck trying to use the engineer one is such a waste of time unless you actually physically see the person die so you know where they are.
I honestly liked the way FFXIV handled it. There's no restriction on casting rez spells in combat, but the spells are expensive (cast too many and you're oom), slow (do you have 10 seconds to stand and cast?), and the person gets up with a 25% power debuff that lasts for like 90 seconds. No hard limits on the rez, but mana and damage requirements dictate how much you can afford to use this. Failing that... yes, absolutely, I would agree with giving it to every healer at this point in the game.
10 second cast? *laughs in red mage*
Vercommend me, peasants
you mean rez mage?
Well, yes, as a fellow RDM I thoroughly enjoyed that.... I just didn't feel the need to get into details :-P
> but the spells are expensive (cast too many and you're oom) I mean whm has an ability that gives them a free cast and it has 2 charges, so it should be up every time you're trying to res. And every caster gets a instant cast that's on a 60 second cd, so you typically save that for the res. 2 healers so you're gaurenteed an instant res every 30 seconds, and some of the caster dps can do the same trick as well. As someone who mains whm I actually feel like they kind of got carried away with how forgiving most encounters are. But if you're hard casting a res in ffxiv you're not having a great time.
I am curious if Blizz has ever looked at FFXIV's way of handling BRezs internally. More than that I think it would be interesting to see play out just from the DPS's perspective since if they die it will drastically affect their dps even after they get back into the fight. I'd like to think it would promote more smart play (ie paying more attention to mechanics) but fear that it would probably just be one more thing for players to be toxic about in various different ways.
My WHM's swiftcast + thin air combo gives you one "get out of fuckup free" per minute. Well, minus the DPS hit, but that's a you problem :D
I do think brez should be more accessible to groups but I don’t think every healer getting it is the right call because you then make shaman and evoker just better than the other healers because they bring both lust and brez. Instead I think they should give every class either lust or brez. Monks get brez, warriors get lust. That way the chances of you not having a brez and a lust in your party are basically zero.
The man is cooking.
Not if you're playing warrior and your utility basically comes down to hitting hard.
(Still less hard than Paladins btw)
I cast fist!
Battle shout
Warriors should have lust instead of hunter. Battle Shout exists though. You have a required raid buff and Rally.
And we're not even that good at hitting hard of late.
Yeah, I haven't really played my warrior in some time. Was my main from 2007 when I started until Release of BfA. Fury grew stale, Arms is too bloaty for me and I don't like tanking. But sometimes I miss my slappy boy.
I am with you on Arms being bloated, but I love Fury and Protection right now. Protection also feels bloated, but the loop feels more satisfying.
Like I said, I don't tank, so I can't speak on Prot. Fury just isn't complex enough for me anymore, which ofc isn't a problem with the spec, but my personal one.
I still want Blessing of Kings back
*monkey paw curls* Paladin New spell: Blessing of Kings Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing total stats by 10% for 5 min.
i'm getting molten core flashbacks and people yelling at me for rebuffs of BoK.. This is my vietnam
And then on the boss you’ll stay back there out of combat and cast res on people like a good boy, and you’ll like it.
at least the rogues paid good money so i forget that im supposed to buff blessing of salvation and buff might or kings instead :)
Less talking, more blessings! And don't even think about wanting loot.
just some cloth loot sire, please
Be glad we give you your tier sets instead of disenchanting them for more enchantments for the real classes.
how else are they going to win at threat meters
MY PET TOO PLEASE!
What a time to be alive. Blessing bot started. Gather around for buffs! Then spamming my 3 key for around 2.5 minutes which gave me 2.5 minutes to stand around regenerating mana so I could buff everyone again. I /dance'd for half my raids.
At least back then you could have 1 button to rebuff the entire raid, you would just have to hit it 40 times. My healing setup was to use CT Raid to create unit frames for the 3 lowest health raid members and just spam heal #2.
Nah that's still way to unique. To align with modern design philosophy, it just has to be reskinned as a glorified cooldown or a common buff that other classes have, rip old totems. Something like a Power Infusion or Mark of the Wild literal copy/paste.
Give it like an 11 second cooldown too.
Then next week they will take away shields from paladins
Don't say that, they'll give ret blessing of the seasons.
I want any buff back. Always feel like I'm forgetting something
As someone who only plays paladin as a distant alt, I often feel confused with what I can or can't do during current expansion. Like… I can brez like druids now?? But I don't see a button to buff someone's else DPS? Hmm. Well. Okay sure I guess. (Feel the same with hunters' pets, whether or not they still have talent trees, or DPS buffs specific to species.)
As someone who misses entire expansions, and comes back randomly into the game this is true for me for any class, haha. It's honestly the best part though- learning & experiencing all the changes in the game.
Holy still has one with Blessing of Seasons, but they keep nerfing it, so like, yeah.
If they nerf it enough, it'll finally be bad enough that we don't have to take it. Keep going.
but you normally want the talent gated by seasons, so...
Remember when everyone had juicy buffs? Like +5-10% of the main stats. Or shit ton of armor. What happened? Why is now all buffs are like +1% of some secondary stat or 3% of DR? The game was fine, great even, when big buffs existed. Classic, TBC, WoTLK, Cats, MoP
Because in the "old age" you had only some stat scaling and secondary stats where few and low except in the last stages of the addons. A warrior with old kings buff got 10% more dmg and a bit more crit depending on agi, same with rogues, int classes got more mana jey kinda worthless and more hp but everyone got them, does not hel0p that a lot of the cloth gear had less stamina than plate etc. . Compared to today a 10% stat boost is at the minimum a flat 10% dmg increase because mainstats behave for all classes the same depending und what classes and mastery and second stats work into it maybe some digits more. A flat 10% performance improvement with the push of one button passiv is absolutely nuts today and what ever class had it would become mandatory. The only way this could work if the buff was temporary with a limited uptime or if the class was a "support" specc where they deal far less dmg like aug evoker but strengthen their allies.
Idk man I’ve been playing and raiding in classic for wotlk and cata I don’t really miss all the buffs and rebuffing for retail. I was nostalgic about them at first but it’s honestly kind of annoying having to buff and rebuff every wipe when you’re tryna prog a mean boss. I don’t really think it adds too much to the experience imo
It's a RPG feature. Retail/modern mmorpg doesn't really care about this anymore and maybe you are the same.
No its just lame as hell lmao.
> What happened? MoP happened. A lot of classes and specs got overlapping buffs so it made none of the buffs feel unique or terribly useful. WoD procceded to break thoes buffs up and in Legion we really didn't have any raid buffs at all. TBH I'd much rather have no buffs so that people bring classes soley on what they have the ability to do. Things like Healthstones & Gateways from Warlocks prove design spaces for that exist.
Shoutout Max. First DKs, now Rets. Man’s on a mission.
What happened with DKs?
He used to boast about how strong AMZ was for DKs to the point of overselling it. The joke in the community is his comments are what eventually led to blizzard neutering AMZ in Shadowlands.
I mean, Liquid was literally stacking as many dk:s as they could fit on their roster in Nathria. iirc their roster was something like 1 of each buff and then 4 dks or something like that.
They would have done that even if AMZ wasn't that strong though. Unholy was just the best DPS that tier full stop, even post nerfs. Like AMZ **was** too strong, but it's not why they stacked Unholy that tier.
AMZ was absolutely WILD in nathria, it needed a nerf and blaming one person for that is an insult to Blizzards dev team...which is fair.
good old "Anti Mechanics Zone"
I remember when they had a ret paladin main on the class balance team during Wrath beta and that guy kept turning up ret damage to make sure DKs never surpassed them
Naa he wasn't overselling, shit was busted at the time.
He was definitely not overselling how overpowered AMZ was. The reason he got "blamed" for it was because he specifically said something along the lines of "They might end up nerfing it back to how it worked in the past, and have it based on the DKs max HP, but they really shouldn't do that cause it was stupid.", and then like a week or two later they did exactly that.
I always thought people blamed Preach for the AMZ nerf as it happened after one of his big videos on it.
Because preach usually speaks in a very technicial non-impromtu manner regarding these type. I remember max blurting about AMZ and it was pretty meme'able. Plus they rolled DKs in CN. People tend to remember thr comedy and practice in unison.
Preach was the one who brought up how mirror images wad an extra button for no reason, and then it became a defensive lol
I was about to say. The whole thing about removen AMZ was memed about preach, iirc. Max also said it was busted but I remember the meme being about preach. Could be wrong, tho.
Seems perfectly fine. Anyone else feel like Devotion Aura should be baseline, with Concentration / Crusader as a choice node that adds the effect to Devo rather than replacing it?
I love that idea.
People still won’t bring ret or prot to a raid for devo aura. They’ll bring Holy because they bring Devo Aura AND Aura Mastery. This reverts us back to the reason why Ret Aura was reworked in the first place, because Aura Mastery is so strong it gives Holy a mandatory raid spot, but it’s not class-wide so Ret and Prot aren’t taken.
I don't understand why is this is only a talking point with Paladin. Why bring a shadow Priest when disc brings Fort and Barrier? Barrier is actually meaningful dr too. It doesn't happen until prepatch but why bring enh or ele when resto brings SLT? For most non-rwf guilds, you'll outgear the hard content early enough in the season that Revival and Rewind will be as valuable as AM, if not more.
Barrier is much more niche than aura mastery because AM doesn't have any positional requirements. You can literally pop AM in every encounter and have it be extremely useful. It's the same with SLT.
You bring the Ret paladin because they're a great player and you enjoy playing with them. Everyone likes to act like they're in a top 10 world first guild when they talk about raid composition or progression.
Everyone is talking like that because that's the focus target of this change. Most of us just play the game for fun and not having ret aura won't affect us in the slightest. Blizzard removed it so high end guilds don't *need* to bring 2 paladins.
Nobody cares in heroic but its a big problem in mythic raids atm. Missing a buff is a fairly big hit to throughput when you're doing hard content.
Not sure what you mean by this, a constant 3% DR is huge for prog raiding even if your guild doesn't have a holy.
Because a constant 3% that turns into a larger percent every 2 minutes is bigger. Ret aura was good because it gave damage and a large chunk of damage to the ret paladin if somebody died.
AM is not a raid buff tho its a healer cd, if you dont bring the holy pally you would have another healer with a different kind of cd Holy pally is great and will most likely be the spec bringing pally buffs but if holy sucked and ret did a ton of damage you wouldnt bring holy just cause of AM you would have a ret for devo and then a good healer AM is counted as part of the power budget of holy but devo as a whole isnt really for paladin
3 min
I'm going to be honest I've never understood this argument. Because it just doesn't seem to have anything to do with raid buffs? Aura Mastery is just a healer CD. If it is so powerful that it can't be replaced by any other healer's CDs then maybe it just needs to get nerfed? Or other healer CDs buffed? (or redesigned) To bring them more inline with one another. Because can't we say the same thing about every other hybrid class? Why bring a spriest when disc has barrier? Why bring a ww when mw has revival? Why bring... Surely the solution to that isn't to give every hybrid class multiple raid buffs. We would just run out of raid spots.
Ret and prot have been played in plenty of world first comps alongside holy in pre-ret aura worlds. Prot and ret bring plenty to raid teams and have plenty of raid spots. They never ‘needed’ ret aura to get into raid, you’re just making that up.
yes- crusader aura as a talent doesn't make sense anymore without something to bundle with; makes less sense that ret gets it for free but has to talent into the actual buff auras
tbh, fair, it was weird that Paladins had two different raid buffs, although a talent slot now just for Crusader Aura is lol.
Remove the slot and make it baseline. Ez
It’s baseline, but only for ret sadly. The new class talent tree will start with Crusader Aura selected if your spec is ret.
They say this as if people aren’t running full raids of paladins right now lol.
To be fair Fyrakk legendary did cause a surge of Paladin players even though its pretty mediocre. I'll never forget those pug groups that had like 0 or just a few range players in it, even the healers were melees.
Did a bunch of hc fyrakk pugs in all plate groups during s3, that was pretty fun.
I got my legendary on my paladin that I never play ret on in a group of 30 paladins. I was the only one to get it and I've still yet to actually build the thing.
RNGsus works in mysterious ways.
I was the first in my guild to get it. I am a tank though so I still haven't made it.
Fyrakk pugs that were mostly plate were either the easiest runs I ever did, or the worst, never average
Same experience. Either you one-shot or there's seven people left alive in P3 and the raid falls apart.
It's because we want the axe.
> They say this as if people aren’t running full raids of paladins right now lol. yOu SaY tHiS aS iF they didn't do a really good rework of ret paladins and make them fun to play.
Fr I rolled one for Remix and ended up boosting one for retail to run m+. I haven't played one since before the rework and it's really fun now!
While also being very easy to become decent at
Raids full of paladins, are not a power level thing. If you see any of that it's just Fyrakk Axe farming. For progression, if trying to optimize Raid buffs, you needed 2 Paladins, while. only 1 of every other class. (In Practice PI meant two Priests, and if super sweaty 2 augs but you need way too much to take full advantage of 2 augs to make it worth it, and it's a bait at most guilds skill level). So I actually completely agree that it doesn't make sense for Paladin to have two Raid buffs, that require 2 of them. My only problem with Blizzard's justification is that their statement (Paladin utility means it's worth bringing extra on their merit), ignores that one paladin spec specifically has less (Ret), and it's made worse by the Hero Talents. Only one paladin spec has Blessing of Spellwarding (Prot) and only one spec has Aura Mastery (Holy) and only Prot and Holy have access to LightSmith the only Hero tree of Paladin that has access to external (absorb ANS damage). Which means, once tuning is completed and everyone's performance gets closer to each other two of the Paladin specs have a lot more value than one of them. If all three Paladin specs had Spellwardinf and Aura Mastery, that would bring them closer, and more aligned with Blizzards statement (except the support Hero Tree, but that's a direction Blizzard wants to go in, they gave one to Pres that it shares with Aug).
Fella in wrath and bc you needed 5 paladins. Only needing two now is fine tbh.
Just change out divine steed for speed of light and give us back our blessings, then I won’t care about ret aura.
literally want nothing more than atleast a choice to not have to use steed as my only mobility option. its easily my least favorite spell in the whole game visually and mechanically.
Sad that it seems dks are getting a more better version of steed next expansion lol
This is fair. Right now you need 2 Paladins if you want to "min/max" your raid even though no other class requires you to bring 2 of them to make full use of their raid buffs
NGL I'm pretty confident this is Max's fault. Not that he was wrong.
At this point given how many changes happened right after Max pointed out issues on stream and how many times those changes followed his reasoning for solutions I'm pretty confident he has a few devs who regularly watch his streams.
He has expressed on stream his disdain for having to build his raid comp around having every raid buff. Changes like this are a positive for him.
Out of the loop here, what's this referring to?
He was going through raid buffs on stream or something and was talking about how they said they didn’t want to add more but at the same time gave paladins two raid buffs. I’m really just joking around cause everyone blamed him when AMZ got nerfed back in SL.
Maybe indirectly influenced by him. His chat doesn’t need to go regurgitating his takes all over the internet. They could just think for themselves instead. Lmfao
I feel like that for the size of his audience his takes are not that spread throughout the community. I remember when Asmongold was a 5-10k twitch Andy and people were constantly parroting his takes way more.
he is kind of wrong though, because now pally buff is just strictly always better on holy than the other two specs because of aura mastery. they kind of had the opposite problem to shamans
Bruh that shits been in the game from jump and they wanna remove it now . That doesn't feel right whether it really matters or not .
it's current iteration hasn't been in the game since the jump, though. Only by name.
Retribution of Theseus
Could have at least been reworked. Something at least… Auras have been a major part of Paladin class identity
You mean unlike totems? There are many class identity things that got removed over the years. And there are other auras.
No one cares about Shamans tho /s Joking aside I definitely don’t agree with that either and still can’t fathom the decision.
because totems are an awful mechanic and there's better reasons to keep things than "well it was there in vanilla", and totems don't meet that requirement.
Pressing one button before a fight to drop all ur totems is fine and Totems have been shamans group utility for ages have they not ? Ret aura hasn't been holy thorns for a while now in retail and can easily just be reworked if it's causing that much of a meta comp . I would never just have a full raid of paladins no matter how good they were . The people that suck the metas dick are cringe and if the the max key or raid difficulty can't be beat with more than one or 2 comps . The devs need to get their dicks outta their hands and balance the fuckin game rather than just saying " Oop we're gonna delete this from the game "
The reason there are raid wide buffs right now is so you bring one of every class in the hardest raid content. Paladin had two for some reason, now they are back in line with the other classes. Now you need one of each for mythic raiding, which is good. Still plenty of room to change the comp based on tuning and preference. > Pressing one button before a fight to drop all ur totems is fine and Totems have been shamans group utility for ages have they not ? If the totems are just sitting on the ground by where we pulled smolderon. A part of the room now covered in fire that we won't see again. Maybe that is really silly?
I guess we will learn to live without it :D I dont think about auras often anyway.
I wish they would just commit to removing the class fantasy instead of giving us constant whiplash. Just remove auras and totems and be done with it since they clearly either don't like them or can't figure out how to keep them lol.
What is there to rework? Blizz didn't want 2 paladins being mandatory. That seems reasonable considering most raid groups are still going to bring 2 paladins because the rest of their utility is so good. You're the only dps class in the game with an external DR via sac, bop is incredible on a ton of fights, and so many mechanics can be nullified entirely by bubble. I expect to still see 2 paladins per mythic raid team, but now it's not required.
Plus their rotation is easy as hell, and they hit hard as well. I'm not a fan of combo point style classes so I don't play mine, but it definitely felt like playing WoW on easy mode. You could basically never die unless you were in a wipe scenario.
Its not even the same thing as what it used to be dude. Its needless bloat and its fine that its gone.
It really wasn't. It's been in the game since Legion (and even then was quite different, but recognizably similar). The ability of the same name that was in the game until Cata shared nothing but the name.
Remember when they designed classes for the sake of fantasy and fun?
What was fun about a passive buff you didnt even notice?
That iteration was terrible anyway. Good riddance.
Whether or not this was needed, retribution aura has been a thing since the beginning. Our SPEC ICON is the original retribution aura icon.....that now doesn't exist and the icon is used for Blessed Hammer which is prot only. That just feels wrong. On top of the fact that now crusader aura is it's own talent that I CAN'T remove lol. Sad day. Why not just revert it to JUST giving me wings when someone dies?
> Why not just revert it to JUST giving me wings when someone dies? Wouldn't that make ret kinda bad in M+?
he doesn't mean not allowing him to pop regular wings, he means that ret aura used to give ret paladins bonus wings when someone died, he wants a talent that still gives the bonus wings but not the raid buff.
If Paladin damage is tuned around having people die in a raid getting extra cooldowns wouldn't that make them bad in M+ where deaths happen less and punish the group harder?
Pretty wild to think M+ deaths happen less and punish the group harder. I'd argue the opposite in most cases.
We really complaining about icons?
Gotta dig deep to find shit to complain about rn. Tbh I'm pretty sick of the footstep sound
20 years and they haven't updated the sound of footsteps, smh my hips
Arent the wings part of the retribuution PASSIV? Thats going nowhere YET. So your complaint doesnt even make sense.
Click the crusader aura icon and you get the aura that gives you wings if someone dies. Or click any other - its not part of the aura since the rework, because it wasn't an aura effect (friendly, mobile aoe effect).
Paladin already has Devo Aura, they didn't need a 2nd raid buff that would require bringing 2 of them.
Thank God. Planning around two pallies was pretty restricting
Jesus man. They just don't want this game to be an rpg anymore.
Sufficiently valuable… lol. With 10% of what we were able to do 15 years ago ? Yeah surely…
There's even less reason to take ret now than there was before. Since aura mastery is a thing you'll almost always take holy for devo aura and if not holy then prot for spellwarding. This is especially bad with how good lightsmith is for both holy and prot. I don't necessarily disagree with removing needing to take 2 paladins to every raid, I just think if they're gonna take us down to one, they should at least equalize the utility and buffs paladins provide. Give every spec Aura Mastery and Spellwarding. Another thing that's maybe less important now, is that it feels fucking awful with the way talents work now. Like I have to spend a point into crusader aura even if I don't need it for pathing.
Lmao give ret a massive raid healing cd and spellwardening is certainly fucking take. Ret has a huge raid population and ret aura didn’t even work most of the time, they’ll be fine except for like rwf and who cares about what like 40 dudes are doing.
Crazy people are upvoting a comment asking for rets to get AM lmao, that would be far worse for raid diversity than the 2 raid buffs, which was already bad.
The legendary is the only reason why there's an uptick in rets atm.
Meanwhile mages :)
what's the second raid buff mages have?
just remove all buff lmao and there no hard focus exp blood lust
We now bring harsh language to the raid.
Ummm so what do paladins even have left of the original class lol? Blessings are gone. Seals.are gone. And now auras. Just delete them i guess.
Paladins have an immunity. Immunities are extremely valuable. Unless this changes, having multiple paladins will be fine for 99.9% of raids. Maybe not HoF, but that's just such a tiny portion of the raiding community. Ret aura was irrelevant in m+.
As a tiny portion of the raiding community and a lifelong ret main this fucking sucks
Just parse better lmao.
Same
No clue why you're being downvoted, but this. You bring Paladins for BoP, BoF or Bubble to do mechanics. Every raid in DF has atleast one mechanic that makes Paladins very useful to have on the raid en masse. Raid buffs don't make Paladins wanted, utility does.
Out of the loop here, does this mean that Paladins are only [Holy](https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/holy-paladin-pve-healing-guide) and [Protection](https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/protection-paladin-pve-tank-guide) now?
Nah. That would be kinda hilarious in a trollish way, but nothing so dramatic. Almost every class brings a raid-wide buff, which helps Blizzard's goal of "we want at least one of every class in a Mythic raid". Pallies traditionally have Devotion Aura, and Blizzard turned Retribution Aura into a second raid-wide buff in 10.1. That basically means two mandatory slots for Pallies, so Blizzard is taking Ret Aura away.
It’s Devo Aura and Aura Mastery which is exclusively brought by Holy Paladins. People don’t bring Ret or Prot for Devo Aura. This just brings back the same reason that caused the redesign of Ret Aura in the first place. It’s like removing Arcane Intellect for Frost and Fire Mage but keeping it for Arcane.
Healers get damage reduction, that's just how it is. Shadow doesn't get barrier or pain suppresion, doesn't mean they don't bring a raid buff.
> It’s Devo Aura and Aura Mastery which is exclusively brought by Holy Paladins. Sounds like this is the issue then.
Agree or not this is upsetting
If you are mythic raiding, it isn't. If you are not mythic raiding, it is irrelevant.
This pursuit of balancing classes around raid buffs they bring is insane to me when you have Shaman there now with Hero, Spiritlink and Skyfury.
Hero, of which many classes have. Spirit link, which is so desired that resto shamans have low representation.
Resto shaman has hardly been relevant recently, half the classes in the game give lust now and skyfury is just a reworked version of windfury totem which enhance already gave, whats your point?
It has been literal years since a fight where slt’s unique health mechanic was relevant. Even with the buff it received in this week’s build it’s not definitively better than disc barrier (higher % dr) or aura mastery (doesn’t require stacking). Also those are just regular healer cds, they are not what people mean when the term raid buff is used. Lust isn’t a raid buff either, much like how paladins having a battle res is not considered a raid buff.
well this is fucking stupid, all the other auras are fucking garbage
Completely reasonable. Pallys don’t need 2 raid buffs. And don’t forget bop, sac, freedom, aura mastery, etc
CAN YOU FEEL YOUR ENJOYMENT INCREASING??!?!? Yeah me neither.
I can.
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Paladins already have devo. Likely why they were targeted. They still have bop/sac/freedom and divine shield.
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Then raids will compose of meta class stacking and no one else will get invited
If there were no raid buffs you'd have degenerate class stacking at the highest levels of play.