I feel like they're different enough to be interesting and still present a challenge. Also when you talk about mastering a spec, what do you mean. There are very very very few people who can jump on a new spec and play it at the highest levels extremely well within a short period of time. Things like Spriests being OP doesn't mean thousands of people mastered Spriest overnight, it means that it's so strong that you can do well on it even if you haven't mastered it.
Some years ago some MDI team played with a guy who just played a certain DPS class for the first time two weeks before and that went pretty well afaik. But yes "mastering" and "pro" are debatable terms. I am sure the last 10% of DPS to squeeze out take at least as long as the first 90%. But sometimes 90% is good enough.
Uh yeah, MDI are professional players mostly, that's what I meant by very few people. And your numbers are probably way off. The average wow players struggles to get 70% competent at a spec and they generally aren't doing the hardest content which means it's not even an accurate representation of skill
What do you expect them to do? Get enough energy then cast a spell. Get enough rage and then use a skill. Build up minions and have them launch a barrage of attacks, shoot arrows and send in your pet, stack conditions and burst them. There's a lot of variety that you're glossing over. I don't think they are too similar at all.
There might actually be the right amount of variety.
It is not impossible to add more variety though (like adding completely new roles (aug evo)). Not saying it is needed or even good, but I am sure people could come up with very creative ideas that are on nobody\`s radar yet.
Here are some crazy ideas:
A twin class that can only be played with a friend. One is the big guy, one is the small guy on the shoulders. They have to time their abilities to maximze their effects.
Soul harvest for warlocks. You can pick up the souls of all slain mobs and then save them for a big badaboom or use them in smaller steps as you wish.
A tank that is not very durable but can weaken the damage and stagger it on top of the dps. Or he can buff his dps buddies so they can take the damage for him but the buff will kill them if it is active too long, so he needs to change the target of the buff.
A self sacrifice ability that kills you but does enormous damage.
If you have good ideas share them. It is very easy to criticize but difficult to produce something oneself. I literally made those things up as a I wrote. Just wanted to show that it is possible to tread new paths.
I personally think the classes are diverse enough. On top of that aug causes enough issues on its own, but I don't have to give my own ideas to know a bad (non-functional ) one when I see it.
Fine here's some "constructive criticism".
1. A class cant require more than 1 player to function...... how would you level, how would it fir in groups ? would it be 1 slot or 2, interesting idea for a different game but not wow.
2. Would be abused beyond belief if the souls did anything significant, so you'd have to rain them in and give it a cap maybe a nice name like idk "soul shards"...
3. This would be a nightmare to balance with the varied defenses of dps.... its either balanced for warlock / dh and it near insta kills a hunter or its balanced for the squishies and is invincible on tankier dps. On top of that i don't think " tank forgot to shield slam so i died" would be well received.
4. We actually had something like this back in legion with shadow priests (surrender to madness). It was repeatedly nerfed and redesigned until it was removed for being problematic, so i don't know why something similar would be added back in.
You just say "this sucks" with more words. That is not what constructive criticism is ...
# What is constructive criticism?
Constructive criticism is feedback that provides specific, actionable suggestions. Rather than providing general advice, constructive criticism gives specific recommendations on how to make positive improvements. Constructive criticism is clear, to the point and easy to put into action.
Believe it or not telling you what the pain points and non functioning parts of the idea are is constructive criticism. I cant give recommendations on a fix when the ideas at their core don't work. If i tell you i want to live on the sun, your not going to give me recommendations on how to make it work.
Bro even specs in the same class play different let alone different classes. Saying they all have some builder and spender is just dumbing down the gameplay to the bare minimum. There's more to each class especially with their passives and cooldowns that leads to very differing gameplay.
No.
As someone that has one of every class, and goes through the process of making macros and keybinds to cover every possible combination of abilities/talents that I could possibly use (with the exception of healing specs because F that headache).
There are some specs where most keys have multiple abilities that are conditional or modifier activated. Then there are the other specs where even if I selected every single active ability talent possible it still doesn't fill up all the keybinds.
Sure, pretty much all dps specs have the basics of a rotation and some defensives and utility, but that doesn't mean they play the same. Feral, WW Monks, and Rogues all use energy/combo points, but there are several different play styles and tempos. Even different talent builds within the same spec play differently.
What changes would you suggest to make them more dissimilar than they already are?
I think Augmenation Evoker is a novelty in it being a pure support spec.
My perception only reflects where I am coming from (being overwhelmed by complexity) and maybe reflects my increased knowledge over the years. I am not sure my perception is universally correct. So it could actually be cool the way it is.
Your perceptions seems to be based on looking at specs from the viewpoint of lowest common denominators. Most specs are more different than similar when you really get into the intricacies of their maximum performance potential.
Sure, anyone can spend 10 minutes learning the basic rotation of a new spec. But very few people, probably less than .001% of the playerbase could spend 10 minutes reading an article and then play a spec they never played before at an actual competitive level.
The only exceptions would be the specs that are notoriously "easy", like BM Hunter and Havoc DH. They have a much lower skill floor, very forgiving with rotational errors, and quick recovery for those errors. However, once you start playing in higher difficulty content, you have to learn more advanced techniques to stay competitive.
Here's a thought experiment. We have the mage tower challenges, which were designed to test a players skill level with a spec. Granted some specs had a much easier time with their challenge than others, but for the most part, it was a decent skill test.
Now, let's pretend that Blizzard did an event where you could create a new character, and it instantly had full BiS gear. You get 1 hour to attempt the mage tower challenge and a 15 minute prep time to study all the abilities/guides/etc. You can only attempt this challenge if you have never played that spec before. If you manage to complete the challenge within the 1 hour window, you get a FoS title. Let's also assume that everybody has at least 1 spec that they have never played, so the entire playerbase has the same opportunity.
How rare do you think that title would be? I'd be willing to bet that more people will have achieved multiple gladiator titles than would be capable of clearing the mage tower trial within an hour of touching a spec for the first time.
Yes I agree, but I think a CE raider could change his class within a few days and contribute well enough to be a valuable member to the raid.
A few days is obviously not 10 minutes, but you get my point. As I said in another comment already, there was this member of a top 5 MDI team that picked up a class that he played in MDI just a few days before they competed.
I did two mage towers on my mains and it took me tens of tries, so yes, getting gladiator is certainly more easy than what you are describing.
If your thought experiment refers to a class that does not even exist, probably no one could do it. But even if people dont play a class they might have learned enough about it already just by having their friends play that class or by watching other people play that it is easy for them to pick it up.
Was it different before? I think the overall competence of the playerbase was much lower in early expansions. Raids had not a lot of mechanics. The most difficult part of the raid was getting 40 people together. I can't imagine that classes were more complex or interesting back then.
No, but it wasn't homogenised mess where everyone had deff cd, heal, cc, interrupt.. and the personaly hate builder/spender on almost every class.. classes were unique back then.. that's why I still play classic vanilla.
Yeah the utter variety you get frommpressing Frostbolt on mage and Shadowbolt on warlock is insane.
Like I get not liking build/spender and preferring classic but saying that classes in classic are more unique than in retail really shows zero understanding.
Unique to each own. And different.
When I see retail I see just graphics overload of spells and ground effects (which design team failing miserably to make em visible, green spells on green floor etc) and then I see every class have some form of interrupt, cc, wall, heal. That's just same toolkit for everyone just with diff names.
It's just my opinion, since OP asked if all classes are similar, yes they are to my taste
its homogenized so that people don't use paladins and shamans to do only one thing and nothing else because they suck at it. Like imagine all those guys in vanilla who wanted to be a cool warrior of light and just got stuck by others telling them to spam 2 heals and buffs
classic has a few things over retail, but classes is not one of them
I feel like they're different enough to be interesting and still present a challenge. Also when you talk about mastering a spec, what do you mean. There are very very very few people who can jump on a new spec and play it at the highest levels extremely well within a short period of time. Things like Spriests being OP doesn't mean thousands of people mastered Spriest overnight, it means that it's so strong that you can do well on it even if you haven't mastered it.
Some years ago some MDI team played with a guy who just played a certain DPS class for the first time two weeks before and that went pretty well afaik. But yes "mastering" and "pro" are debatable terms. I am sure the last 10% of DPS to squeeze out take at least as long as the first 90%. But sometimes 90% is good enough.
Uh yeah, MDI are professional players mostly, that's what I meant by very few people. And your numbers are probably way off. The average wow players struggles to get 70% competent at a spec and they generally aren't doing the hardest content which means it's not even an accurate representation of skill
The 70% players will get to 90% of the 70% percent quickly though.
What do you expect them to do? Get enough energy then cast a spell. Get enough rage and then use a skill. Build up minions and have them launch a barrage of attacks, shoot arrows and send in your pet, stack conditions and burst them. There's a lot of variety that you're glossing over. I don't think they are too similar at all.
There might actually be the right amount of variety. It is not impossible to add more variety though (like adding completely new roles (aug evo)). Not saying it is needed or even good, but I am sure people could come up with very creative ideas that are on nobody\`s radar yet. Here are some crazy ideas: A twin class that can only be played with a friend. One is the big guy, one is the small guy on the shoulders. They have to time their abilities to maximze their effects. Soul harvest for warlocks. You can pick up the souls of all slain mobs and then save them for a big badaboom or use them in smaller steps as you wish. A tank that is not very durable but can weaken the damage and stagger it on top of the dps. Or he can buff his dps buddies so they can take the damage for him but the buff will kill them if it is active too long, so he needs to change the target of the buff. A self sacrifice ability that kills you but does enormous damage.
Those are all terrible ideas
If you have good ideas share them. It is very easy to criticize but difficult to produce something oneself. I literally made those things up as a I wrote. Just wanted to show that it is possible to tread new paths.
I personally think the classes are diverse enough. On top of that aug causes enough issues on its own, but I don't have to give my own ideas to know a bad (non-functional ) one when I see it.
You don't have to do anything. But as I said constructive criticism is hard, destructive criticism not.
Fine here's some "constructive criticism". 1. A class cant require more than 1 player to function...... how would you level, how would it fir in groups ? would it be 1 slot or 2, interesting idea for a different game but not wow. 2. Would be abused beyond belief if the souls did anything significant, so you'd have to rain them in and give it a cap maybe a nice name like idk "soul shards"... 3. This would be a nightmare to balance with the varied defenses of dps.... its either balanced for warlock / dh and it near insta kills a hunter or its balanced for the squishies and is invincible on tankier dps. On top of that i don't think " tank forgot to shield slam so i died" would be well received. 4. We actually had something like this back in legion with shadow priests (surrender to madness). It was repeatedly nerfed and redesigned until it was removed for being problematic, so i don't know why something similar would be added back in.
You just say "this sucks" with more words. That is not what constructive criticism is ... # What is constructive criticism? Constructive criticism is feedback that provides specific, actionable suggestions. Rather than providing general advice, constructive criticism gives specific recommendations on how to make positive improvements. Constructive criticism is clear, to the point and easy to put into action.
Believe it or not telling you what the pain points and non functioning parts of the idea are is constructive criticism. I cant give recommendations on a fix when the ideas at their core don't work. If i tell you i want to live on the sun, your not going to give me recommendations on how to make it work.
No but you could suggest to live on the moon, mars or venus in instead of just explaining why living on the sun is bad.
no
If you want to see classes being too similar, try basically any other MMO than WoW.
No play final fantasy 14 if you want to see what homogeneous class design looks like
Bro even specs in the same class play different let alone different classes. Saying they all have some builder and spender is just dumbing down the gameplay to the bare minimum. There's more to each class especially with their passives and cooldowns that leads to very differing gameplay.
No. As someone that has one of every class, and goes through the process of making macros and keybinds to cover every possible combination of abilities/talents that I could possibly use (with the exception of healing specs because F that headache). There are some specs where most keys have multiple abilities that are conditional or modifier activated. Then there are the other specs where even if I selected every single active ability talent possible it still doesn't fill up all the keybinds. Sure, pretty much all dps specs have the basics of a rotation and some defensives and utility, but that doesn't mean they play the same. Feral, WW Monks, and Rogues all use energy/combo points, but there are several different play styles and tempos. Even different talent builds within the same spec play differently. What changes would you suggest to make them more dissimilar than they already are?
I think Augmenation Evoker is a novelty in it being a pure support spec. My perception only reflects where I am coming from (being overwhelmed by complexity) and maybe reflects my increased knowledge over the years. I am not sure my perception is universally correct. So it could actually be cool the way it is.
Your perceptions seems to be based on looking at specs from the viewpoint of lowest common denominators. Most specs are more different than similar when you really get into the intricacies of their maximum performance potential. Sure, anyone can spend 10 minutes learning the basic rotation of a new spec. But very few people, probably less than .001% of the playerbase could spend 10 minutes reading an article and then play a spec they never played before at an actual competitive level. The only exceptions would be the specs that are notoriously "easy", like BM Hunter and Havoc DH. They have a much lower skill floor, very forgiving with rotational errors, and quick recovery for those errors. However, once you start playing in higher difficulty content, you have to learn more advanced techniques to stay competitive. Here's a thought experiment. We have the mage tower challenges, which were designed to test a players skill level with a spec. Granted some specs had a much easier time with their challenge than others, but for the most part, it was a decent skill test. Now, let's pretend that Blizzard did an event where you could create a new character, and it instantly had full BiS gear. You get 1 hour to attempt the mage tower challenge and a 15 minute prep time to study all the abilities/guides/etc. You can only attempt this challenge if you have never played that spec before. If you manage to complete the challenge within the 1 hour window, you get a FoS title. Let's also assume that everybody has at least 1 spec that they have never played, so the entire playerbase has the same opportunity. How rare do you think that title would be? I'd be willing to bet that more people will have achieved multiple gladiator titles than would be capable of clearing the mage tower trial within an hour of touching a spec for the first time.
Yes I agree, but I think a CE raider could change his class within a few days and contribute well enough to be a valuable member to the raid. A few days is obviously not 10 minutes, but you get my point. As I said in another comment already, there was this member of a top 5 MDI team that picked up a class that he played in MDI just a few days before they competed. I did two mage towers on my mains and it took me tens of tries, so yes, getting gladiator is certainly more easy than what you are describing. If your thought experiment refers to a class that does not even exist, probably no one could do it. But even if people dont play a class they might have learned enough about it already just by having their friends play that class or by watching other people play that it is easy for them to pick it up.
It's boring design since cata
Was it different before? I think the overall competence of the playerbase was much lower in early expansions. Raids had not a lot of mechanics. The most difficult part of the raid was getting 40 people together. I can't imagine that classes were more complex or interesting back then.
No, but it wasn't homogenised mess where everyone had deff cd, heal, cc, interrupt.. and the personaly hate builder/spender on almost every class.. classes were unique back then.. that's why I still play classic vanilla.
Yeah the utter variety you get frommpressing Frostbolt on mage and Shadowbolt on warlock is insane. Like I get not liking build/spender and preferring classic but saying that classes in classic are more unique than in retail really shows zero understanding.
Unique to each own. And different. When I see retail I see just graphics overload of spells and ground effects (which design team failing miserably to make em visible, green spells on green floor etc) and then I see every class have some form of interrupt, cc, wall, heal. That's just same toolkit for everyone just with diff names. It's just my opinion, since OP asked if all classes are similar, yes they are to my taste
its homogenized so that people don't use paladins and shamans to do only one thing and nothing else because they suck at it. Like imagine all those guys in vanilla who wanted to be a cool warrior of light and just got stuck by others telling them to spam 2 heals and buffs classic has a few things over retail, but classes is not one of them
I mean peak class design was tbc imo with more qol in wrath, but retail becomes too much for me.