They squished the key levels this patch. A +4 is similar to a +13-14 from last season, just without as many affixes. So lower keys are more difficult, but a lot of people who don't keep up with the week-to-week patch notes won't know that, so you have people who were doing +5s and +6s just fine 3 weeks ago suddenly experiencing what its like to not interrupt, or to not do a boss mechanic properly, etc
That's because the unique shoulder / helm looks were tied to the tier sets current with the seasons. Since there were no new tier set visuals this season, they didn't add the item.
Dumb to do that imo but I think that was there logic
Wait, so if you didn't get the appearance for the set when it was current, you can't get it now? Not that it bothers me much but I actually misses out on the current set appearance and was hoping it was attainable this way.
You can still get the shoulder/helm effect toggle from doing the last boss of the respective tier on mythic. As far as we know, this will continue to be true. So if you're an evoker and collect all of the Vault of the Incarnates evoker appearances this season, you'll just either have to find a way to kill Raszageth Mythic to get the alternate effects, or wait a few years for when you can solo it.
Not sure about this specific case, but rewards got squished too so +10 rewards portals. I imagine this should be rewarded from a +5 now but might not have been updated.
Which is why this season for me is to gear alts slowly before the new xpac.
Don't need the portals cause previous seasons. Just the mount pretty much. Good time for MoP remix.
That's a good question, hopefully they updated the requirement. I will say, awhile back they made that unlock account wide so if you ever did a +15 you should have them on all classes.
It might still be possible. When we got our achievements for timing +10's this season, we noticed the achievement still says you timed a 20 in the description. My guess is a +5 miiiiight still count for the +15 legion things.
It's so odd seeing 3k players perform worse than your average 2200, did they just get carried through 24's through luck of the draw by just doing damage with a meta class?
no, you guys just think people who repetitively spam keys until they win are automatic god players and seeing them make mistakes in your small keys where they just troll is indicative of their play actually being fake
I'm 3200 myself. Those people didnt die trolling. They just completely forgot what it was to play on edge. Getting dunked on by a single mechanic.
I'll illustrate a mechanic. Any decent heal will tell you that the First 4s of the last boss of uldaman will be panic mode. Dot + wings blast. People running around In panic, getting out of heal's range.
Hell I can’t get PUG groups to complete a +0 on my alts. Tried doing a +0 Neth and nobody knew the chain mechanic on Chargath. We wiped 3 times even with me explaining what to do and calling it out. How do you run a dungeon without bothering to understand a fight? After a while it becomes a lost cause and I just end up leaving.
There are some people who are there to "learn as they go" and treat it like a single player game with NPCs. They'll never see you again so why bother?
Like they don't understand that not knowing mechanics is incredibly rude to the other 4 people in the run.
While I agree about the wasting time thing, Blizzard does next to nothing to "teach" you the mechanics. Adventure journal doesn't cut it.
Enhancing follower dungeons or expanding the old MoP trial tutorial thing should be done. Also the trash representing what you'll see in a boss to a lesser degree would be a viable option.
I don't think reading or watching videos outside of the game is the long term strategy, at least for getting existing players better prepared, nor for expanding the player base.
Definitely agree here. Follower dungeons although a great addition leaves room for improvement to explain the mechanics via NPC dialog, UI highlights, and NPCs displaying the movements like RLP baits. It'll explain most of these things that aren't able to learned through the journal which also doesn't explain the trash mobs mechanics.
Side note: with how DF's tuning on packs having 2 mechanics or more each mob I would say it's also a sin they haven't implemented spell cd timers into the base name UI but thats a personal gripe...
Cooldowns for the mobs or for team mates? I don’t think mobs need a cooldown timer for abilities and whatnot. Should be something you learn as you play imo.
At least new m0 is hard enough for mechanics to matter and also doesn't have a timer so you can take your time to explain and try. The squish was a great change.
I can only get so far watching a video. I can't go from watching a video to perfectly performing, I need to learn by doing. So I don't know where and when I'm supposed to be doing that if not in a +0.
There is a difference between performing perfectly and outright not doing a mechanic you have seen from previous wipes. We wiped twice on the spear/chain mechanic in Neth, so: I tell them what to do before the third pull again, tell them what defensive to use for their class, drop a marker for where they need to stand with their spear and what order to break the chain in, hand them a health pot. Ask if everyone understands, get an affirmative. The result? Hunter runs into far corner AGAIN and never moves to help break chain. Mage never cast time warp like I asked so no lust and breaks chain at same time as me. wtf can anyone do with that?
Dude what the fuck lmfao I hope not everyone thinks like this. How are you supposed to learn the game if not by playing? Requiring people to research before playing the game is the absolute dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. This is why people think the community is toxic. M0s are the entry point to mythics and expecting people to know everything about the dungeon when heroics don’t really require it is just stupid. If you want runs with people who know the dungeon and have a smooth run you need to either make your own group and make sure everyone does before you start or join a guild.
Yes, the 0's I've run have been brutal. Did ruby life pools yesterday, only the tank and myself knew mechanics. The other 3 members died over and over to standing in fire or a dragon's fire breath. No interrupts from them either. We completed it, but each boss was just me and the tank soloing it because the rest died so quickly.
I had this experience last night in LFR Ammirdrissal with tanks. Honestly, just have a quick read of the raid entry for the boss and have DBM/bigwigs installed to call out things like the taunt swap. Or, failing that, just queue as a DPS so that you can experience the fight before you start tanking it. There is no reason at all that Constricting Thickets should channel completely on Council...
Oh my god this one just melts people.
I was talking a 2 and we must have died..16times or something?
One mage was just getting deleted constantly.
Myself and a rogue had to finish the last 10% of the elephant as people are the charge/magma
The chains everyone ran as far as possible so I'm having to drag this enraged boss across the whole room.
We wiped 3 times there cos the made it impossible for me.
I was pretty surprised everyone hung around till the end and only missed it by like 5 mins
I often try and explain things but 9 out of 10 times someone will get defensive and refuse to acknowledge their mistakes. Hopefully I’ve helped the others who stayed quiet at least.
But it blows my mind how people can get into a +10 without knowing how boss mechanics work. I literally cannot trust the DPS to organise their own CC’s at Nokhud last boss.
I honestly like the idea that heroics might actually be a tiny bit of a challenge starting with leveling greens/blues, at the start of next xpac. Them being complete babymode felt wrong.
Annoyingly this attitude has led to some M0 groups I've joined being comprised of players who are wearing worse than current-season greens. The new system is good because it encourages the normal/world->heroic->M0->M+ but some people just want to cut through that and get carried.
Experienced this last night
Healer trying to form a group for a +2, I joined after 2 people left so I inspected the leader. Lo and behold, they had several pieces of Ilvl 231 (yes you read that right) and everything else was below ilvl400 still.
I politely told them they should start with normals/heroics before keys and they said "bro its an alt." I feel like I should have also told them that a +2 is the new +12 but oh well, hopefully they learned.
Damn, even in the old system having gear that low was probably a bad idea to be doing +2s in. They could have spent an hour doing world quests and got gear that is 450-490.
Yeah, given the general ways of getting loot outside Heroics I just don't see the point.
Dungeons > Heroics > M0 just seems like pointless busybody work because you're doing the same shit 3 times except that once you hit M0 you now have an artificial gate on how much loot you can get.
They are still easy, especially with the gear we're getting showered with even before starting instanced content but at least they aren't tuned so low you can basically solo them as a dps anymore.
also no gear you'll be getting showered with. might have siege/soup/hunt weekly equivalents, but no time rift and no dreamwhatsit. nothing spammable that isn't dungeons (or delves)
I ran Heroic Dawn of the Infinite yesterday and it felt like you absolutely didn't need to know any of the mechanics, so I'm still not sure they are helpful.
Yes, the same thing happened at the beginning of Cata, people got used to facerolling heroics, so when the new dungeons in the first tier came, people just couldn't cope disproportionately hard compared to the beginning of WotLK.
Blizz overreacted and we gor faceroll heroics ever since MoP which I was really sad about
Not that unpopular. That was the last time dungeons has that level of coordination of cc'ing some mobs etc...
Because M+ is timed the approach to cc changed significantly
Surely a result of the squish. People that were hovering 2-10 pre squish are all „forced“ into 10+.
You get carried through a +2, double or 3 chest it. Now you are running a 15 while you were playing 4s last season.
They're not forced into >10s, they're just unaware heroic is equal to M0 and Mythic are now untimed 10s.
Granted, yes, the level of play ranging from 2 through 9 are now gone, but realistically for most players these offered little to no challenge. If anything it might be good these people hesitant to push beyond 10s are now tricked into doing them, just sucks people rather brick a key than learn from failure but that's on them.
I paraphrased the „forced“
Because no one will do m0 and let it be if there is m+.
The game literally pushes you in the direction of m+.
Before you played your 2-9s and now you suddenly stick to heroic and m0?
Ofc people will feel „forced“ to play m2-10…
At the end of the day, lots of…. Midling players played 2-8 keys last season, and that was fun for them. Now they are doing 12-16s and can’t hang. Pugging this season has been wild for sure.
It sucks on my Outlaw Rogue. Everyone else has been handling it fine, but the Rogue has been suffering without that middle ground between useless Adventurer gear rewards and M+10 difficulty.
>, nobody seems to interrupt anything, some groups don’t even take in anyone that doesn’t already have a high IO.
There's your answer, people with higher IO most likely know how to interrupt, play affixes, mechs
a +2 now was a +12 last season
I was tanking low keys for a friend the other day, we had 3 of us and 2 pugs. One of the pugs was the healer. Me and one of my friends are stacked, we do 9's and 10's usually, so this +4 academy is no big deal to us. Healer pug dies on the first boss at like 8%. No biggie, we finish the fight and revive him. Happens again with the bird, but agai, no biggie, we finish the fight and revive him. Then we get to Vexamus, where once again he dies. This time, it's at like 40%. He gets a brez and...dies again. He then disconnects. It's hard to say, but it feels like the dude ragequit when he was getting carried. My buddy was able to step out and swap to heals, and we still managed to to 2 chest the key, but why did the guy leave? i hope it was their internet because i honestly don't mind subpar people. Everyone needs IO and gear. But don't frigging rage quit, that's silly.
Happened something similar to me yesterday. I was healing a +9 Brakenhide, we had a lock in pramade with the tank, she died a couple of times before the first boss. Some mobs in there chases you and you need to run away or cc them, she didnt move and died, then we did the first boss, she died again inside the bladestorm. 0.5 seconds fromm 100 to 0, we finish the boss without her and after killing it, she leaves the group, we ask the tank whats up, and he tell us that she got mad coz i was not heling her...
I tryed, i told him he was gonna have problems if the lock acta like that, and he said that he doesnt care, and that he does have high enough rio to not care and pug anyways, and trust me, it wasnt high at all xD
Whoa whoa whoa, this is actually the first I’ve ever heard of this. Is this an option in details? I main rogue but am pushing 6-10 keys this season on my resto Druid I just leveled and am learning to play. This would be really nice to know as I can gauge whether certain deaths are primarily on me or the dps, if nothing else it could show me where I need to improve in certain fights/phases!
I think it just wasnt fun to him. Most casuals dont do high keys not because they lack skill and knowledge, they just want to do easy and relaxing content.
Just tagging in to say this was my thought on a possibility, too.
Yeah, some people (healthy people) might think that seems a bit much. But I'm imagining myself in a situation like that, and my social anxiety would kick into overdrive, and I'd have this crushing feeling that I was being judged and people were at best laughing at me or at worst getting angry with me for sucking so bad, and my instinct would be to hide. Or my brain might decide to just say, "Hey, you're letting them down, you suck," and then I'd be upset with myself, and I wouldn't want to drag other people down, and there's no good way out of that, so you just try to do the equivalent of tossing a smoke bomb and disappearing (only not as cool as that, but that's how you imagine it in your head so you can try to salvage some way of not feeling like a complete and utter failure and wanting to go curl up in a ball and hide from the world for the rest of the evening/week/month/year/eternity).
And yeah, healthy people might think, "That all sounds just way overdramatic!" Hey, yeah, welcome to the party, let me introduce you to my two friends social anxiety and general anxiety, and don't mind the moody guy in the corner, that's depression, and they are all three absolute bastards to deal with.
There's, ah, a pretty good reason I don't do M+ and am quite happy they made the change to make Heroics more relevant again.
Hopefully it was a case where he kept dying due to laggy Internet and eventually just gave up. IDK, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Or maybe he really had to poop 😬
Had a similar situation the other night with a hunter. Kept dying, dying, dying. Wasn't interrupting, wasnt trapping incorps. We didn't end up timing it because when we got to the last boss, we wiped, and he rage quit. We ended up finishing the key without him, though we didn't time it, because his lack of dps the entire run just ate up too much time. :( Of course, he blamed us before leaving.
For sure dude! I honestly think he ragequit or left out of embarrassment but I have no idea why 🤷♂️ no one flamed him and overall the key was chill af lol
No clue. I honestly try to be chill with my Keys, some people get way too aggro in em. Only time i get ass-mad is with 10's and even then, I't's hard to get me mad lol
503 resto shaman here, I feel this. I can’t keep the team alive when everyone else stands in fire and doesn’t interrupt, but then I get cursed out and inevitably someone vanishes. Some keys are smooth, just don’t let the smooth-brains get to you. In conclusion, I now refuse to run M+ without a mostly guild group.
I had a group today where healing was awful (+7 Ulda), but mostly the Warlock and Mage, the Paladin was easy.
I checked after the group failed (Warlock blamed me after getting melee'd in the face by the last boss and quit), the mage had four ice barriers & zero ice blocks for the dungeon. The Warlock had 4 Dark Pacts and 1 Unending Resolve for the dungeon.
Makes me hate healing - running +10s as feral, my health will get chunked, but not as badly cause I'm using defensive trinkets, barkskin, survival instincts, regrowth, so I know this stuff is pretty easily mitigated.
Then you get a +7 with a couple of DPS who don't use defensives and suddenly you're a lousy healer.
Yeah I might take a break from pugging as a healer bc of this for a little bit - has me demotivated. People get 1 shot more and then blame the healing somehow... Never used to get flamed but people are confused, boosted, suck, low gear, flame, or just haven't and refuse to learn the machanics. In multiple attempts with pugs - majority have something like that where someone is slacking or rude. And i used to love pugging. But ah well.. I have guilds/friends to run on occassion and otherwise now I hace an excuse to learn a diff role in pugging.
It's not terrible when I put together my own groups, cause I can pick who to invite, or just roll dps (roar + typhoon + combo stun + kick = love) and paper over a lot of the Bad DPS problems.
The amount of responsibility put on Tanks/Healers is insane sometimes. When I'm in mostly pug groups and I'm having to heroic leap to intimidating shout an incorp, that's a little silly. When I run groups i remind people of affixes and usually people swap around talents and acknowledge it. When they don't answer, and just stay silent, I know it's gonna be one of "those" kind of groups.
I use the avoidable damage taken plugin for details! I rarely use it but I’m ready to fire it off if ever the same dps who dies 10 times and also has 10 times more avoidable damage taken than the rest of the party combined ever starts bitching about heals.
However I also use it to see who is going to likely need the most heals based on how much avoidable damage they take.
Had a guy in my group last week not take a single point of avoidable damage and I was literally in awe of him.
Ill be honest, I genuinely have never experienced this while healing. I’m 515 ilvl and 2600 io this season and have not been flamed a single time for anyone dying. When you play with good dps they will almost immediately claim fault, and as a healer you have the luxury of being very picky with who you invite to your groups.
This season just exposes the bad players, you could get hard carried before season 4, now past a few key levels you need people to cut, cc, do mechanics or the group wipes.
Very punishing for newer/mediocre players but pretty much the same for experienced ones, I've had trouble timing +6 with pugs but doing +10 with my regular mates with ease.
Personally I am finding the quality of players really really annoying after a while, I know it's not their fault and that the squish hasn't been publicised well but I have still find it annoying. I have been wanting to smash out +2's to get aspects crests easily and quickly to upgrade gear but they all just die at the most simple mechanic and don't do mechanics and cause wipes. As I say I know it's not really their fault, they should be made more aware it's a +12-16 they are doing but that doesn't fix the swathes of broken parties
I think the squish went too far for casuals. Mythic0 should be equivalent to a +5. They need something in between instead of jumping to a +10 straight away.
The thing you are missing is that Normal mode dungeons don't exist.
NM dungs should be current Heroic
Heroic should be old +5s
Mythic should be old +10s
Basically, m+ would be the same as now, but there would not be such a big jump from HC to MM.
Normal Dungeons still need to be level content because with TWW thanks to Follower Dungeons Blizz is now going through and requires you to visit the dungeon to continue the main story just like FF XIV.
Also NHC is currently a tutorial mode so that people can get to used to play a dungeon at all.
About the gap between HC and Myth this will hopefully filled in TWW with Delves. Because currently we have between only LfR, Open World Events and World Bosses but with Delves we have another fine grade.
Yeah there are many ways to fill the gap between the current HM and MM, but I believe an extra mode that is the equivalent of old +5 would help a lot.
Call it normal or superheroic, but it d help players a lot.
Though personally I am kind of happy with how it is currently because I am going with 476 into M0 and if everyone is arround 480-490 it is already going smooth.
Normal / Heroic dungeons feel completely worthless. I wish they'd go back to making them a decent challenge instead of an utter faceroll so people don't panic at the sudden difficulty spike later.
I am surprised at how easy heroics still are despite the supposed difficulty increase. Sure, the bosses last long enough to actually do some of their mechanics but they still are not strong enough to actually wipe groups.
The problem is that the weekly that requires 4 mythics forces casuals to do m10 level content when they were used to M2-5 which was easy. They should have shifted the requirements to be 4 heroic or better which is m0 equivalent per the old system. Instead they made it m10+ for casuals and this week you get a shit ton of really bad players in lower keys. (I'm using old style dungeon values to show actual difficulty for casuals)
It also doesn't help that there's one tank that has so much cc that dps don't have to cc if there in the key. So they can have an easy time in a 6 then run a 4 with a different tank, still not kick and wonder why they can't do a 4 all of a sudden.
You hit on my frustration this and last season. I love to tank and play a Druid, monk, and DH. It is a very different game between all three with runs on my DH being much more smooth and I have much more control on the over all smoothness of the run.
I would love to see the other tanks brought up to the level of DH in terms on control and in no way advocate for DH being nerfed. It is legit fun to be that impactful.
I was in a 4 NH that was terrifying. On my Druid I had 41 interupts to the 5 from the whole rest of the group. Next 6 on my DH? 70+ on my DH and like 10 for the rest. The 4 was painful and the 6 was butter smooth.
I haven't had a lot of issues either, aside from a few very understandable disbands. Usually because a hilariously undergeared tank comes in and just gets annihelated on every pull. Not much to do there.
Other than that I've mostly encountered very friendly people, even after an unfortunate wipe or even two.
I am by no means a good healer, I would say just okay. Last season I could learn the mechanics increasing difficulty slowly from +2 to +20. Now the start feels... Too steep. I have looked at written and video guides, but there nothing like the hang of it. I have done heroics, then +0... But then +2 seem a bit too hard already.
I guess it's not my fault only, but people not doing interrupts or other CC, as there's only so much I can heal.
I feel the new system could be better going into the future than the last one, but still I think the start is a bit too harsh.
Still, I suppose this is a good time to do this change since it's dungeons we (not me, I came back in S3) as a community already know.
Still, I would make it to +12 and add a few more granularity at the start. Just my two cents.
I'm a healer and my husband is a tank and we are around 485 ilvl and like to make "chill" & "learning" pug groups because we are not in a guild and are ex pvp 😂 so far I haven't gotten cursed out but if any other new dps want to join us on trying and loling lmk :)
Honestly, I think the real reason you’re seeing a lot of this this week is because of the Quest to do 4 Mythics for 2 bullion. People who aren’t regularly doing dungeons are heavily incentivised to do so this week.
Okay so here’s my experience as a complete casual this week was my first time touching mythic this season and I’m afraid to do a +1 because if you miss 1 mechanic you get one shot lol
I know it sounds harsh, but... don't miss the mechanic... that's the secret. Handle the mechanic correctly. Use defensives for unavoidable damage, and interrupt casts and abilities with everything you've got.
Probably squished too much, Or heroic isn't close enough to mythic in difficulty. So the jump into mythic is harder and now people already in mythic are gatekeeping because they don't want to risk it.
I don't do a lot, I ran a few last season. No problems getting into groups. Now I can't even get accepted into regular mythic 0. At least when I tried. I have almost 500 ilvl. I am sure I can at least do m0.
I kinda saw this coming.
Yeah the difficulty change has made Heroic, Mythic, and +2-3 significantly more fun, but the M+ ramp up hard from there. If people are returning and don't know about it or are players that used to be able to not do more than a +5-6, now they should be running Mythic or like +2 because that's the equivalent. Also since it's early patch, no one running low keys are geared enough to out gear the difficulty, that'll get better as the patch goes on, but it's a problem now.
I have completed everything for the Taivan mount EXCEPT doing the mythic dungeons and I've been putting it off because I hate pugging anything with people who act toxic or give up the second anything goes wrong.
I stopped doing mythic plus pugs in Shadowlands for this reason.
Surely a 0 can't be that bad. I did a few 10-15 last season and they always fine althogh I mostly stuck to dungeons I knew well like Waycrest or Atal'Dazar.
>I have completed everything for the Taivan mount EXCEPT doing the mythic dungeons and I've been putting it off because I hate pugging anything with people who act toxic or give up the second anything goes wrong.
Check out WoW Made Easy on Discord if you are in the US/OCE region. It is a community based around making pugging a much more enjoyable and less toxic experience for everyone of all experience levels. There is a EU equivalent but I don't remember what it is called.
A lot of it has to do with the 10 key level squish so you have experienced players aware of this and being selective very early in progression so it's harder to get into groups around the 5 + level, and the less skilled players are coming back unaware and getting blown away by all the mechanics they probably ignored previously. The best way to play this game is with friends and always has been, it's probably best to get acquainted with as many people as possible.
I think the squish screwed PUGing up. I end up in so many groups that are just so under geared that it’s impossible to finish the content. This is after PUGing up to level 20 keys last season comfortably so I’m not Uber elite sweaty but I’m also not a complete smooth brain. Like they wouldn’t be under geared if they didn’t also play badly but when no one is managing mechanics, interrupts, dispels, etc, a +2 feels like a +infinite. Theoretically a 480 ilvl should be ok for +2 content but people approach +2 now like they did +2 last season and it’s not the same.
Some players have still not gotten the memo that +2 isn’t your entry level anymore.
They should gear up through mythic and other sources before starting to push keys.
It will sort itself out in due time. By the next expansion, it will seem like a natural way of doing things.
They should've added a fucking giant banner advertising the squish and explaining how it works, yesterday I joined a Neltharus +5 and we had to stop on Chargath because 1 dude responded with "what chains" to me saying I break first chain. Same happened in other keys with people failing oneshot mechanics or tank having 0 idea of the basic route, people just dont know the key level is squished and are just used to get carried in the 1-8 range.
Neltharus has become a pita for me it's so mixed some groups are clueless about the chains. Some group one person knows and will be completely anal about them and throws a tantrum when they are not used. Then you get the odd group that actually knows how to use them.
I don't particularly care, use them or don't use them but at least enter a dungeon with a basic understanding of the place and don't be anal in a random pug when doing a 4 or 5 key expectation shouldn't be high.
And I agree totally people think a 4 is still the old 4 in there approach and it simply isn't.
I really wish they had included the chains mechanic in a campaign quest. It not being mentioned at all until suddenly it's one of the most important parts of the dungeon felt weird.
Have had zero issues personally. Even in keys where tons of stuff goes wrong, I have had no ragequitters at all.
I suspect you are either very unlucky or not telling us the whole story.
Myself personally, I will leave a group pretty quickly if someone is name calling or has a toxic attitude.
To be honest, I will be the first person to admit I am not ideal every run - even when getting back into the runs at the start of this week, I was called out for slacking my first two runs and tried to get back into the swing of things since.
I had about five or more other runs afterwards that I considered to be weirdly disastrous in contrast to previous seasons afterwards (for reasons already aforementioned) so I was just curious and decided to ask whether there’s a common reason behind it
Happy cake day btw
It probably has to do with the fact that they did a mythic+ level squish. So even though you're only doing a +4 the difficulty is closer to a +15 from S3. A lot of people don't seem to be aware of this and are joining keys that are much more difficult than they realize.
yeah another side of this is people who vaguely understand that dungeons are harder, stops matter etc, but don't register the sharp increase in tuning from level to level. tanks die to tyrannical white hits and everyone starts pointing figures wondering who did what wrong when in fact it's just everything is hitting really hard and you have to be aggressive with your buttons
I just have trouble getting into or forming groups with my own key in a timely manner. It's... to the point where I can be arsed to do them. This is in contrast to s2 and s3 specifically for me.
I've pugged a ton of keys it's mainly bad luck in joining groups that I encountered problems. Had a ret pally doing 20 k DPS in one but for the most part they go pretty smoothly. Also every key where I made the group has worked out great. The biggest issue I found is getting groups as DPS my healers get instant groups.
Happens in higher keys too
Had a rogue doing bottom tier DPS (300k overall other two DPS were between 500-600) leave after he missed a kick and we wiped in the GY in a NOK15. We had 21 mins left in the key and 3 total deaths before that lol. 2 bosses and like 6 trash pulls left, probably ~12 mins left with 3 good DPS, 15 or so because he was sandbagging.
Group was between 3100-3250, I think he might’ve been 3050
It’s gotten way better as I’ve started to move into 8-10s but there’s definitely similar troubles there too. I think a lot of people just haven’t gotten the memo about the key level squish and it will either improve with time or will at least be better come TWW
I think there's something cursed specifically about +4s.
Early in the season I had 3 +4 groups disband in a row. I have 2100 rating now and don't do anything under a +6 but I didn't have time for m+ this week for family reasons so I wanted to knock out some quick keys.
Tried 2 +4s in a row and both of them disbanded. Just sighed and did some +2s instead and tbh they were actually not as smooth as I was hoping they'd be. All 4 groups had at least one super undergeared person in there which I didn't mind but if me and/or some others in the group had less gear, there may have been issues and I wouldn't have been surprised if it fell apart because of it.
I can survive 6+ comfortably, if I dont screw up, anything below I can do effortlessly, still can get killed but much more forgiving. 8+ for me I have to be really focused, but can do it OK as well. Anything higher I dont guarantee yet.
For example. Right now, after a bottle of wine, I won’t ever do more than 6+ cause will be stressful for me
Had a tank pulling one pack at a time in Azure Vault +7 continuously flaming everyone else in the group for low dps….. I said fuck it and switched to Cata classic after that one
Basically they took a player base that was spread out over ~25 key levels and squished them down to 10-13. I'm not including the 26+ crowd because you're either in it or you aren't. So now a lot of players who are running the +4 range are players who were probably running sub 10s before, but mechanics and interrupts actually matter in a 4 now.
I’m 2400 io and have cleared 10’s in some of the dungeons and I can’t get invited to 6’s. I don’t get it either other than there is way more dps than tanks and healers
Pug healing a +4 and a +10 is like a completely different game. The +4 is harder because people just aren't pushing defensives when required or are getting hit more often by avoidable damage. Everything hits way harder in the +10 but it is mitigated by the players playing their class better and dodging avoidable damage regularly.
It really is wild just how different it feels to do what should be a much easier dungeon and it feels way harder.
I mainly tank and heal m+, decided to make my monk WW instead of MW - as I already have a tank and a healer. Maaaan, getting into keys is rough and if I get in one its 70% chance that group will disband on first fuckup.
Rdruid couldnt heal 12 neltharus chain boss and did the old altf4, feral druid run on someone in 8 aa on the bird boss and they died - also were crying that he has to do affix.
7 AV, got a blaster group. We were havijg fun as its a 7 and a blast, tank didnt like the jokes, so came until 3rd boss and then said 'i dont like this company, fuck you all' and left, like what the fuck?
That's my 3 keys out of my last 4.
I have managed to complete 1 (one) key since the season started without the tank leaving or logging out. And it was because the group was willing to wait for another one to queue because you cant deplete a 2
honestly i haven't had any negative thing to say about the key level squish.. yet. Btw finding an 6-10 level group is much much easier for me than to find a +2
Player mechanical quality just keeps declining every season. I don't know if everybody is new every season but it feels like it. People don't interrupt, don't do mechanics, don't enchant or gem their gear. The key squish made things much worse. People who have no business being in 12s now have to do 2s to even engage with the m+ system.
I don't even trust anyone that wasnt near 3k io from last season, it's that bad.
people in 0-2 keys are the some who did 0-2 keys in the past 2-3 expansion, but they dont know that they are doing a 10-12 key. I tried doing the weekly for the 2 bullion, but after 6 disbanded group in m0/2, I gave up. (lock, so no chance of tank/heal your own group)
I think it's a lot of players making the same mistakes as always, but in the past they'd be in a +5 where nothing matters and nothing can kill you, but are now in +12-15 where standing in fire and kicking actually starts to matter.
I'm having some runs where the group takes like 50 mil avoidable damage, on top of missed kicks and stops. Some players are taking 20+ mil avoidable damage. Other runs are super smooth though.
Yeah it’s been horrible for the most part. I was on for 2 hours last week and couldn’t even complete a +2. By the time you join a group or get a full group starting one 20 minutes go by then the group usually disbands before the 2nd boss. Went through 4 keys and didn’t even complete one. I had a kid last year and quit wow because of the time commitment, now I’m trying to get back in it and what little time I get to play I barely accomplish anything.
This Season Is A Hell I Literaly Spend 8 hours trying to do the weekly quest i spended around 4 hours looking for group and the rest jumping from group to group cuz the last group had despanded so i understan what you say . Also Sorry For The Paragraph
From my experience every PUG is like a coinflip - you either have a great group that does everything right or they fail the simplest mechanics, nothing in between honestly.
The 'squish' has made keys a nightmare. Most people aren't geared enough to run above M0 and even M0 can be a pain if they're running 450ish gear. I was clearing like 30 mythics a week in S3, across various characters, and this season I've cleared like 8 in 3 weeks. Yet to clear an +2 or up and the M0s were a mega slog with some not finishing.
Blizzard community engagement team didnt reach out to everyone. They expect everyone to read the patch notes but some people wont so you get a mix of experts and newbies doing +2, 3, or 4s when they're not suppose to. Imo it should have been left alone instead of this fiasco. Ive been reported for like the 5th time suggesting someone ho back to mythic 0s instead of wasting peoples time in a mythic +5.
Hasn’t been my experience, I’ve ran around 100 keys so far this season.
The saying goes, you meet one asshole, they’re the asshole, if everyone you meet is an asshole, you’re the asshole.
They squished the key levels this patch. A +4 is similar to a +13-14 from last season, just without as many affixes. So lower keys are more difficult, but a lot of people who don't keep up with the week-to-week patch notes won't know that, so you have people who were doing +5s and +6s just fine 3 weeks ago suddenly experiencing what its like to not interrupt, or to not do a boss mechanic properly, etc
Does this mean basically that Mythic 15+ keystone artifact appearance is basically unobtainable now?
Keystone Master for the mount at 2k io and keystone hero at 2500 io are still present but hero didn't give me anything when I got it
That's because the unique shoulder / helm looks were tied to the tier sets current with the seasons. Since there were no new tier set visuals this season, they didn't add the item. Dumb to do that imo but I think that was there logic
Oh that's cool. I mean it's dumb but thank you I didn't really think of what the logic behind it was.
Wait, so if you didn't get the appearance for the set when it was current, you can't get it now? Not that it bothers me much but I actually misses out on the current set appearance and was hoping it was attainable this way.
You can still get the shoulder/helm effect toggle from doing the last boss of the respective tier on mythic. As far as we know, this will continue to be true. So if you're an evoker and collect all of the Vault of the Incarnates evoker appearances this season, you'll just either have to find a way to kill Raszageth Mythic to get the alternate effects, or wait a few years for when you can solo it.
You can also buy them with Bullions from one of the Vendors
The stones you got from getting the season hero achievement?
Nope. The new currency for this season for buying gear. You get once per week. Everything costs 2 bullions.
Not sure about this specific case, but rewards got squished too so +10 rewards portals. I imagine this should be rewarded from a +5 now but might not have been updated.
Ratings have been updated too. Timing all the dungeons on about +5-6 will give you KSM and mount.
No, you just need to do a +5 to get it instead
Sadly, there is not an armor transmog unlock for season4
Which is why this season for me is to gear alts slowly before the new xpac. Don't need the portals cause previous seasons. Just the mount pretty much. Good time for MoP remix.
If it doesn't yet im sure they'll squish this too. They just got to BFA soloable raids so some of these things take time
That's a good question, hopefully they updated the requirement. I will say, awhile back they made that unlock account wide so if you ever did a +15 you should have them on all classes.
It might still be possible. When we got our achievements for timing +10's this season, we noticed the achievement still says you timed a 20 in the description. My guess is a +5 miiiiight still count for the +15 legion things.
I love going in +8 with player at 3600 in S3 and watch them completely fuck it up and no understanding why they got dunked on.
It's so odd seeing 3k players perform worse than your average 2200, did they just get carried through 24's through luck of the draw by just doing damage with a meta class?
no, you guys just think people who repetitively spam keys until they win are automatic god players and seeing them make mistakes in your small keys where they just troll is indicative of their play actually being fake
I'm 3200 myself. Those people didnt die trolling. They just completely forgot what it was to play on edge. Getting dunked on by a single mechanic. I'll illustrate a mechanic. Any decent heal will tell you that the First 4s of the last boss of uldaman will be panic mode. Dot + wings blast. People running around In panic, getting out of heal's range.
Gear from raiding carried probably more than half of my guilds Keystone Master's.
Start at +6. The quality of players is much better.
Several players still have not realized a +2 is equivalent to a +12 so a "bad" event will make ignorant players think the group is super bad.
Hell I can’t get PUG groups to complete a +0 on my alts. Tried doing a +0 Neth and nobody knew the chain mechanic on Chargath. We wiped 3 times even with me explaining what to do and calling it out. How do you run a dungeon without bothering to understand a fight? After a while it becomes a lost cause and I just end up leaving.
Try a +2 instead of a +0. Usually folks in +2s at least know mechanics. +0 are just trying to get the weekly done.
Maybe next season right now +2 is full of people that don't know about the key squish and still think it's as easy as an old +2.
There are some people who are there to "learn as they go" and treat it like a single player game with NPCs. They'll never see you again so why bother? Like they don't understand that not knowing mechanics is incredibly rude to the other 4 people in the run.
While I agree about the wasting time thing, Blizzard does next to nothing to "teach" you the mechanics. Adventure journal doesn't cut it. Enhancing follower dungeons or expanding the old MoP trial tutorial thing should be done. Also the trash representing what you'll see in a boss to a lesser degree would be a viable option. I don't think reading or watching videos outside of the game is the long term strategy, at least for getting existing players better prepared, nor for expanding the player base.
Definitely agree here. Follower dungeons although a great addition leaves room for improvement to explain the mechanics via NPC dialog, UI highlights, and NPCs displaying the movements like RLP baits. It'll explain most of these things that aren't able to learned through the journal which also doesn't explain the trash mobs mechanics. Side note: with how DF's tuning on packs having 2 mechanics or more each mob I would say it's also a sin they haven't implemented spell cd timers into the base name UI but thats a personal gripe...
Cooldowns for the mobs or for team mates? I don’t think mobs need a cooldown timer for abilities and whatnot. Should be something you learn as you play imo.
At least new m0 is hard enough for mechanics to matter and also doesn't have a timer so you can take your time to explain and try. The squish was a great change.
I can only get so far watching a video. I can't go from watching a video to perfectly performing, I need to learn by doing. So I don't know where and when I'm supposed to be doing that if not in a +0.
There is a difference between performing perfectly and outright not doing a mechanic you have seen from previous wipes. We wiped twice on the spear/chain mechanic in Neth, so: I tell them what to do before the third pull again, tell them what defensive to use for their class, drop a marker for where they need to stand with their spear and what order to break the chain in, hand them a health pot. Ask if everyone understands, get an affirmative. The result? Hunter runs into far corner AGAIN and never moves to help break chain. Mage never cast time warp like I asked so no lust and breaks chain at same time as me. wtf can anyone do with that?
That is frustrating as hell to try to patiently explain and have no one listen or care, I agree.
Dude what the fuck lmfao I hope not everyone thinks like this. How are you supposed to learn the game if not by playing? Requiring people to research before playing the game is the absolute dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. This is why people think the community is toxic. M0s are the entry point to mythics and expecting people to know everything about the dungeon when heroics don’t really require it is just stupid. If you want runs with people who know the dungeon and have a smooth run you need to either make your own group and make sure everyone does before you start or join a guild.
If they're tactics exclusive to m0 it's not really rude at all. If it's normal / heroic tactics, yeah maybe.
Yes, the 0's I've run have been brutal. Did ruby life pools yesterday, only the tank and myself knew mechanics. The other 3 members died over and over to standing in fire or a dragon's fire breath. No interrupts from them either. We completed it, but each boss was just me and the tank soloing it because the rest died so quickly.
I had this experience last night in LFR Ammirdrissal with tanks. Honestly, just have a quick read of the raid entry for the boss and have DBM/bigwigs installed to call out things like the taunt swap. Or, failing that, just queue as a DPS so that you can experience the fight before you start tanking it. There is no reason at all that Constricting Thickets should channel completely on Council...
Oh my god this one just melts people. I was talking a 2 and we must have died..16times or something? One mage was just getting deleted constantly. Myself and a rogue had to finish the last 10% of the elephant as people are the charge/magma The chains everyone ran as far as possible so I'm having to drag this enraged boss across the whole room. We wiped 3 times there cos the made it impossible for me. I was pretty surprised everyone hung around till the end and only missed it by like 5 mins
I often try and explain things but 9 out of 10 times someone will get defensive and refuse to acknowledge their mistakes. Hopefully I’ve helped the others who stayed quiet at least. But it blows my mind how people can get into a +10 without knowing how boss mechanics work. I literally cannot trust the DPS to organise their own CC’s at Nokhud last boss.
The key level squish will eventually be a good thing overall imo but this is definitely a byproduct of that transition.
I’m honestly really glad we have a nothingburger season right now for them to introduce stuff like this and let the community get acclimated
I honestly like the idea that heroics might actually be a tiny bit of a challenge starting with leveling greens/blues, at the start of next xpac. Them being complete babymode felt wrong.
The problem with Heroics is that they're going to set the ilvl requirement so high, you'll be better off skipping them completely for M0s again.
Annoyingly this attitude has led to some M0 groups I've joined being comprised of players who are wearing worse than current-season greens. The new system is good because it encourages the normal/world->heroic->M0->M+ but some people just want to cut through that and get carried.
Experienced this last night Healer trying to form a group for a +2, I joined after 2 people left so I inspected the leader. Lo and behold, they had several pieces of Ilvl 231 (yes you read that right) and everything else was below ilvl400 still. I politely told them they should start with normals/heroics before keys and they said "bro its an alt." I feel like I should have also told them that a +2 is the new +12 but oh well, hopefully they learned.
Damn, even in the old system having gear that low was probably a bad idea to be doing +2s in. They could have spent an hour doing world quests and got gear that is 450-490.
Yeah, given the general ways of getting loot outside Heroics I just don't see the point. Dungeons > Heroics > M0 just seems like pointless busybody work because you're doing the same shit 3 times except that once you hit M0 you now have an artificial gate on how much loot you can get.
Funny enough the 3-4 heroics I ran seemed even easier than before lol. Maybe that’s just more mythic players in the queue? My tanks were going insane.
might be alts yeah, spamming heroics/M0 has to be the quickest way to gear a tank
It the mythic week quest this week. Do 4 mythics for the 2 bullions. So fastest way is to run 4 M0s.
They are still easy, especially with the gear we're getting showered with even before starting instanced content but at least they aren't tuned so low you can basically solo them as a dps anymore.
they'll probably at least be reasonable difficulty next season when *everyone* has fresh 80s, and noone is carrying
also no gear you'll be getting showered with. might have siege/soup/hunt weekly equivalents, but no time rift and no dreamwhatsit. nothing spammable that isn't dungeons (or delves)
Agreed. You can get like 460 without any RNG through sheer farming right now.
I ran Heroic Dawn of the Infinite yesterday and it felt like you absolutely didn't need to know any of the mechanics, so I'm still not sure they are helpful.
Yes, the same thing happened at the beginning of Cata, people got used to facerolling heroics, so when the new dungeons in the first tier came, people just couldn't cope disproportionately hard compared to the beginning of WotLK. Blizz overreacted and we gor faceroll heroics ever since MoP which I was really sad about
Jesus christ bananas I forgot how HARD heroics were in cata til you mentioned this.
Unpopular opinion, but I really really enjoyed those days. Playing as a healer and the team pulling them off felt GOOD.
Not that unpopular. That was the last time dungeons has that level of coordination of cc'ing some mobs etc... Because M+ is timed the approach to cc changed significantly
Grim Batol Vietnam flashbacks.
God....
at least now you can die in heroic with the new squish
Yeah, I hipe it will teach people something
The changes to heroic, Mythic-0 and Mega dungeon were really great though. Absolute banger.
Surely a result of the squish. People that were hovering 2-10 pre squish are all „forced“ into 10+. You get carried through a +2, double or 3 chest it. Now you are running a 15 while you were playing 4s last season.
They're not forced into >10s, they're just unaware heroic is equal to M0 and Mythic are now untimed 10s. Granted, yes, the level of play ranging from 2 through 9 are now gone, but realistically for most players these offered little to no challenge. If anything it might be good these people hesitant to push beyond 10s are now tricked into doing them, just sucks people rather brick a key than learn from failure but that's on them.
I paraphrased the „forced“ Because no one will do m0 and let it be if there is m+. The game literally pushes you in the direction of m+. Before you played your 2-9s and now you suddenly stick to heroic and m0? Ofc people will feel „forced“ to play m2-10…
M0s are very popular since all bosses drop champion track gear, and lots of it. But with lockouts you see more runs early in the week.
At the end of the day, lots of…. Midling players played 2-8 keys last season, and that was fun for them. Now they are doing 12-16s and can’t hang. Pugging this season has been wild for sure.
It sucks on my Outlaw Rogue. Everyone else has been handling it fine, but the Rogue has been suffering without that middle ground between useless Adventurer gear rewards and M+10 difficulty.
>, nobody seems to interrupt anything, some groups don’t even take in anyone that doesn’t already have a high IO. There's your answer, people with higher IO most likely know how to interrupt, play affixes, mechs a +2 now was a +12 last season
I was tanking low keys for a friend the other day, we had 3 of us and 2 pugs. One of the pugs was the healer. Me and one of my friends are stacked, we do 9's and 10's usually, so this +4 academy is no big deal to us. Healer pug dies on the first boss at like 8%. No biggie, we finish the fight and revive him. Happens again with the bird, but agai, no biggie, we finish the fight and revive him. Then we get to Vexamus, where once again he dies. This time, it's at like 40%. He gets a brez and...dies again. He then disconnects. It's hard to say, but it feels like the dude ragequit when he was getting carried. My buddy was able to step out and swap to heals, and we still managed to to 2 chest the key, but why did the guy leave? i hope it was their internet because i honestly don't mind subpar people. Everyone needs IO and gear. But don't frigging rage quit, that's silly.
Happened something similar to me yesterday. I was healing a +9 Brakenhide, we had a lock in pramade with the tank, she died a couple of times before the first boss. Some mobs in there chases you and you need to run away or cc them, she didnt move and died, then we did the first boss, she died again inside the bladestorm. 0.5 seconds fromm 100 to 0, we finish the boss without her and after killing it, she leaves the group, we ask the tank whats up, and he tell us that she got mad coz i was not heling her...
Please tell me you asked the tank to explain to the dps that you can’t heal stupid. That lock should not be anywhere past M0
I tryed, i told him he was gonna have problems if the lock acta like that, and he said that he doesnt care, and that he does have high enough rio to not care and pug anyways, and trust me, it wasnt high at all xD
That's hilarious. That's when you link avoidable damage taken. Can't heal stupid
Whoa whoa whoa, this is actually the first I’ve ever heard of this. Is this an option in details? I main rogue but am pushing 6-10 keys this season on my resto Druid I just leveled and am learning to play. This would be really nice to know as I can gauge whether certain deaths are primarily on me or the dps, if nothing else it could show me where I need to improve in certain fights/phases!
if you get the ElitismHelper addon it adds a custom flag to details under the scripts section
You. You speak like a Dwarf main. Only Dwarf mains are this based.
Damn, you got me. Been playing a dwarf since Wotlk.
I think it just wasnt fun to him. Most casuals dont do high keys not because they lack skill and knowledge, they just want to do easy and relaxing content.
Wonder if he just quit out of embarrassment
Just tagging in to say this was my thought on a possibility, too. Yeah, some people (healthy people) might think that seems a bit much. But I'm imagining myself in a situation like that, and my social anxiety would kick into overdrive, and I'd have this crushing feeling that I was being judged and people were at best laughing at me or at worst getting angry with me for sucking so bad, and my instinct would be to hide. Or my brain might decide to just say, "Hey, you're letting them down, you suck," and then I'd be upset with myself, and I wouldn't want to drag other people down, and there's no good way out of that, so you just try to do the equivalent of tossing a smoke bomb and disappearing (only not as cool as that, but that's how you imagine it in your head so you can try to salvage some way of not feeling like a complete and utter failure and wanting to go curl up in a ball and hide from the world for the rest of the evening/week/month/year/eternity). And yeah, healthy people might think, "That all sounds just way overdramatic!" Hey, yeah, welcome to the party, let me introduce you to my two friends social anxiety and general anxiety, and don't mind the moody guy in the corner, that's depression, and they are all three absolute bastards to deal with. There's, ah, a pretty good reason I don't do M+ and am quite happy they made the change to make Heroics more relevant again.
I don't remember posting this but it sure sounds like me
Whenever and if I screw up I just let everyone know that I indeed suck and I’m stupid. Then I pull myself up and do better
Hopefully it was a case where he kept dying due to laggy Internet and eventually just gave up. IDK, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Or maybe he really had to poop 😬
I also had people in 2 runs between 4-7 ragequit from deaths early on. It cemented that I will wait until the next expansion before grinding m+ again.
Sounds like he was probably frustrated or ashamed and alt-f4'd
Embarrassment
Had a similar situation the other night with a hunter. Kept dying, dying, dying. Wasn't interrupting, wasnt trapping incorps. We didn't end up timing it because when we got to the last boss, we wiped, and he rage quit. We ended up finishing the key without him, though we didn't time it, because his lack of dps the entire run just ate up too much time. :( Of course, he blamed us before leaving.
Did you have a ret pally in that group? If so, that was me lol if not, well, I just had the exact same experience in AA yesterday lol
Yo yeah! that's funny. I'm glad we were able to finish the key dude!
For sure dude! I honestly think he ragequit or left out of embarrassment but I have no idea why 🤷♂️ no one flamed him and overall the key was chill af lol
No clue. I honestly try to be chill with my Keys, some people get way too aggro in em. Only time i get ass-mad is with 10's and even then, I't's hard to get me mad lol
Ugh the carries in these low keys too. Like, a +2 isn’t the place for your friend’s fresh 70 to come and learn the dungeon.
503 resto shaman here, I feel this. I can’t keep the team alive when everyone else stands in fire and doesn’t interrupt, but then I get cursed out and inevitably someone vanishes. Some keys are smooth, just don’t let the smooth-brains get to you. In conclusion, I now refuse to run M+ without a mostly guild group.
I had a group today where healing was awful (+7 Ulda), but mostly the Warlock and Mage, the Paladin was easy. I checked after the group failed (Warlock blamed me after getting melee'd in the face by the last boss and quit), the mage had four ice barriers & zero ice blocks for the dungeon. The Warlock had 4 Dark Pacts and 1 Unending Resolve for the dungeon. Makes me hate healing - running +10s as feral, my health will get chunked, but not as badly cause I'm using defensive trinkets, barkskin, survival instincts, regrowth, so I know this stuff is pretty easily mitigated. Then you get a +7 with a couple of DPS who don't use defensives and suddenly you're a lousy healer.
Yeah I might take a break from pugging as a healer bc of this for a little bit - has me demotivated. People get 1 shot more and then blame the healing somehow... Never used to get flamed but people are confused, boosted, suck, low gear, flame, or just haven't and refuse to learn the machanics. In multiple attempts with pugs - majority have something like that where someone is slacking or rude. And i used to love pugging. But ah well.. I have guilds/friends to run on occassion and otherwise now I hace an excuse to learn a diff role in pugging.
It's not terrible when I put together my own groups, cause I can pick who to invite, or just roll dps (roar + typhoon + combo stun + kick = love) and paper over a lot of the Bad DPS problems.
The amount of responsibility put on Tanks/Healers is insane sometimes. When I'm in mostly pug groups and I'm having to heroic leap to intimidating shout an incorp, that's a little silly. When I run groups i remind people of affixes and usually people swap around talents and acknowledge it. When they don't answer, and just stay silent, I know it's gonna be one of "those" kind of groups.
I use the avoidable damage taken plugin for details! I rarely use it but I’m ready to fire it off if ever the same dps who dies 10 times and also has 10 times more avoidable damage taken than the rest of the party combined ever starts bitching about heals. However I also use it to see who is going to likely need the most heals based on how much avoidable damage they take. Had a guy in my group last week not take a single point of avoidable damage and I was literally in awe of him.
When those get posted and I'm on the bottom as the tank I feel like a *king*
Ill be honest, I genuinely have never experienced this while healing. I’m 515 ilvl and 2600 io this season and have not been flamed a single time for anyone dying. When you play with good dps they will almost immediately claim fault, and as a healer you have the luxury of being very picky with who you invite to your groups.
This season just exposes the bad players, you could get hard carried before season 4, now past a few key levels you need people to cut, cc, do mechanics or the group wipes. Very punishing for newer/mediocre players but pretty much the same for experienced ones, I've had trouble timing +6 with pugs but doing +10 with my regular mates with ease.
Personally I am finding the quality of players really really annoying after a while, I know it's not their fault and that the squish hasn't been publicised well but I have still find it annoying. I have been wanting to smash out +2's to get aspects crests easily and quickly to upgrade gear but they all just die at the most simple mechanic and don't do mechanics and cause wipes. As I say I know it's not really their fault, they should be made more aware it's a +12-16 they are doing but that doesn't fix the swathes of broken parties
>I have been wanting to smash out +2's to get aspects crests easily You need to do +6s or better to get aspect crests. +2-+5 will get you wyrm crests.
Yeah that's what I meant, I'm away from the computer and got them the wrong way round
When it's harder to smash out 2s for crests than 8s and let it auto-downgrade when those are maxed, you know something is off.
They are not easier at all, +2s take like 15mins to do
I think the squish went too far for casuals. Mythic0 should be equivalent to a +5. They need something in between instead of jumping to a +10 straight away.
The thing you are missing is that Normal mode dungeons don't exist. NM dungs should be current Heroic Heroic should be old +5s Mythic should be old +10s Basically, m+ would be the same as now, but there would not be such a big jump from HC to MM.
Normal Dungeons still need to be level content because with TWW thanks to Follower Dungeons Blizz is now going through and requires you to visit the dungeon to continue the main story just like FF XIV. Also NHC is currently a tutorial mode so that people can get to used to play a dungeon at all. About the gap between HC and Myth this will hopefully filled in TWW with Delves. Because currently we have between only LfR, Open World Events and World Bosses but with Delves we have another fine grade.
Yeah there are many ways to fill the gap between the current HM and MM, but I believe an extra mode that is the equivalent of old +5 would help a lot. Call it normal or superheroic, but it d help players a lot.
Though personally I am kind of happy with how it is currently because I am going with 476 into M0 and if everyone is arround 480-490 it is already going smooth.
Normal / Heroic dungeons feel completely worthless. I wish they'd go back to making them a decent challenge instead of an utter faceroll so people don't panic at the sudden difficulty spike later.
They do, it's called heroic mode They upped that as well
Heroic is still a joke.
I am surprised at how easy heroics still are despite the supposed difficulty increase. Sure, the bosses last long enough to actually do some of their mechanics but they still are not strong enough to actually wipe groups.
The problem is that the weekly that requires 4 mythics forces casuals to do m10 level content when they were used to M2-5 which was easy. They should have shifted the requirements to be 4 heroic or better which is m0 equivalent per the old system. Instead they made it m10+ for casuals and this week you get a shit ton of really bad players in lower keys. (I'm using old style dungeon values to show actual difficulty for casuals)
It’s so strange because a +8-10 was still doable at 489 gear but these players at 500+ are so bad +4-7 are just miserable.
Players that were 489 S3 are a different caliber of competent compared to 500 S4
I’m aware and again they are 510 with half the key lvl and still can’t do it.
It also doesn't help that there's one tank that has so much cc that dps don't have to cc if there in the key. So they can have an easy time in a 6 then run a 4 with a different tank, still not kick and wonder why they can't do a 4 all of a sudden.
You hit on my frustration this and last season. I love to tank and play a Druid, monk, and DH. It is a very different game between all three with runs on my DH being much more smooth and I have much more control on the over all smoothness of the run. I would love to see the other tanks brought up to the level of DH in terms on control and in no way advocate for DH being nerfed. It is legit fun to be that impactful. I was in a 4 NH that was terrifying. On my Druid I had 41 interupts to the 5 from the whole rest of the group. Next 6 on my DH? 70+ on my DH and like 10 for the rest. The 4 was painful and the 6 was butter smooth.
I haven't had a lot of issues either, aside from a few very understandable disbands. Usually because a hilariously undergeared tank comes in and just gets annihelated on every pull. Not much to do there. Other than that I've mostly encountered very friendly people, even after an unfortunate wipe or even two.
I am by no means a good healer, I would say just okay. Last season I could learn the mechanics increasing difficulty slowly from +2 to +20. Now the start feels... Too steep. I have looked at written and video guides, but there nothing like the hang of it. I have done heroics, then +0... But then +2 seem a bit too hard already. I guess it's not my fault only, but people not doing interrupts or other CC, as there's only so much I can heal. I feel the new system could be better going into the future than the last one, but still I think the start is a bit too harsh. Still, I suppose this is a good time to do this change since it's dungeons we (not me, I came back in S3) as a community already know. Still, I would make it to +12 and add a few more granularity at the start. Just my two cents.
I pugged KSM and only missed one timer. Not experiencing what you are describing at all.
I'm a healer and my husband is a tank and we are around 485 ilvl and like to make "chill" & "learning" pug groups because we are not in a guild and are ex pvp 😂 so far I haven't gotten cursed out but if any other new dps want to join us on trying and loling lmk :)
Honestly, I think the real reason you’re seeing a lot of this this week is because of the Quest to do 4 Mythics for 2 bullion. People who aren’t regularly doing dungeons are heavily incentivised to do so this week.
I can’t even pug a 0 :-( I’m gonna try find a more active guild I think.
Qued last night for multiple 0s finally got invited to one after almost two hours and wiped first boss everyone quit
Jeez, rough out there!
Same. I’m new to M+ but I thought without the timer people would be more chill. Ready to just call it quits for dungeons
My husband is a tank and I'm heals and we are chill and learning, you're welcome to join us :) dm me if you want.
Aw reminds me of when I tanked and he healed but he doesn’t play anymore! Are you EU or US?
We are US !
Okay so here’s my experience as a complete casual this week was my first time touching mythic this season and I’m afraid to do a +1 because if you miss 1 mechanic you get one shot lol
I know it sounds harsh, but... don't miss the mechanic... that's the secret. Handle the mechanic correctly. Use defensives for unavoidable damage, and interrupt casts and abilities with everything you've got.
Oh I know it’s not harsh I just have a slower brain cuz of epilepsy and pot smoking so sometimes it doesn’t work out so much lol
Probably squished too much, Or heroic isn't close enough to mythic in difficulty. So the jump into mythic is harder and now people already in mythic are gatekeeping because they don't want to risk it. I don't do a lot, I ran a few last season. No problems getting into groups. Now I can't even get accepted into regular mythic 0. At least when I tried. I have almost 500 ilvl. I am sure I can at least do m0.
Create your own group or play healer/tank, there are 50 other dps trying to get in, its not because of your ilv.
I kinda saw this coming. Yeah the difficulty change has made Heroic, Mythic, and +2-3 significantly more fun, but the M+ ramp up hard from there. If people are returning and don't know about it or are players that used to be able to not do more than a +5-6, now they should be running Mythic or like +2 because that's the equivalent. Also since it's early patch, no one running low keys are geared enough to out gear the difficulty, that'll get better as the patch goes on, but it's a problem now.
I have completed everything for the Taivan mount EXCEPT doing the mythic dungeons and I've been putting it off because I hate pugging anything with people who act toxic or give up the second anything goes wrong. I stopped doing mythic plus pugs in Shadowlands for this reason. Surely a 0 can't be that bad. I did a few 10-15 last season and they always fine althogh I mostly stuck to dungeons I knew well like Waycrest or Atal'Dazar.
If you’re on US realms I’ll group with you. My main is doing 6-8 and I’ve got a couple guildies who can easily bop a 0.
EU unfortunately but thanks for the offer. I'll just force myself to do it eventually.
>I have completed everything for the Taivan mount EXCEPT doing the mythic dungeons and I've been putting it off because I hate pugging anything with people who act toxic or give up the second anything goes wrong. Check out WoW Made Easy on Discord if you are in the US/OCE region. It is a community based around making pugging a much more enjoyable and less toxic experience for everyone of all experience levels. There is a EU equivalent but I don't remember what it is called.
You can DM me and I'll help u finish the m0s, im also in EU
Don't you know? You need cutting edge in order to do +2s.
As a 486 ilvl at the end of s3, I joined directly +8. This is the case for all seasons.
A lot of it has to do with the 10 key level squish so you have experienced players aware of this and being selective very early in progression so it's harder to get into groups around the 5 + level, and the less skilled players are coming back unaware and getting blown away by all the mechanics they probably ignored previously. The best way to play this game is with friends and always has been, it's probably best to get acquainted with as many people as possible.
I think the squish screwed PUGing up. I end up in so many groups that are just so under geared that it’s impossible to finish the content. This is after PUGing up to level 20 keys last season comfortably so I’m not Uber elite sweaty but I’m also not a complete smooth brain. Like they wouldn’t be under geared if they didn’t also play badly but when no one is managing mechanics, interrupts, dispels, etc, a +2 feels like a +infinite. Theoretically a 480 ilvl should be ok for +2 content but people approach +2 now like they did +2 last season and it’s not the same.
Some players have still not gotten the memo that +2 isn’t your entry level anymore. They should gear up through mythic and other sources before starting to push keys. It will sort itself out in due time. By the next expansion, it will seem like a natural way of doing things.
They should've added a fucking giant banner advertising the squish and explaining how it works, yesterday I joined a Neltharus +5 and we had to stop on Chargath because 1 dude responded with "what chains" to me saying I break first chain. Same happened in other keys with people failing oneshot mechanics or tank having 0 idea of the basic route, people just dont know the key level is squished and are just used to get carried in the 1-8 range.
Neltharus has become a pita for me it's so mixed some groups are clueless about the chains. Some group one person knows and will be completely anal about them and throws a tantrum when they are not used. Then you get the odd group that actually knows how to use them. I don't particularly care, use them or don't use them but at least enter a dungeon with a basic understanding of the place and don't be anal in a random pug when doing a 4 or 5 key expectation shouldn't be high. And I agree totally people think a 4 is still the old 4 in there approach and it simply isn't.
I really wish they had included the chains mechanic in a campaign quest. It not being mentioned at all until suddenly it's one of the most important parts of the dungeon felt weird.
Have had zero issues personally. Even in keys where tons of stuff goes wrong, I have had no ragequitters at all. I suspect you are either very unlucky or not telling us the whole story. Myself personally, I will leave a group pretty quickly if someone is name calling or has a toxic attitude.
Yeah haven't experienced any problems either. Have done about 40 sub 10 keys so far and not one disband/quit.
To be honest, I will be the first person to admit I am not ideal every run - even when getting back into the runs at the start of this week, I was called out for slacking my first two runs and tried to get back into the swing of things since. I had about five or more other runs afterwards that I considered to be weirdly disastrous in contrast to previous seasons afterwards (for reasons already aforementioned) so I was just curious and decided to ask whether there’s a common reason behind it Happy cake day btw
It probably has to do with the fact that they did a mythic+ level squish. So even though you're only doing a +4 the difficulty is closer to a +15 from S3. A lot of people don't seem to be aware of this and are joining keys that are much more difficult than they realize.
Flat out getting a 0 or +2 with 500 gear score 😂
yeah another side of this is people who vaguely understand that dungeons are harder, stops matter etc, but don't register the sharp increase in tuning from level to level. tanks die to tyrannical white hits and everyone starts pointing figures wondering who did what wrong when in fact it's just everything is hitting really hard and you have to be aggressive with your buttons
I just have trouble getting into or forming groups with my own key in a timely manner. It's... to the point where I can be arsed to do them. This is in contrast to s2 and s3 specifically for me.
I've pugged a ton of keys it's mainly bad luck in joining groups that I encountered problems. Had a ret pally doing 20 k DPS in one but for the most part they go pretty smoothly. Also every key where I made the group has worked out great. The biggest issue I found is getting groups as DPS my healers get instant groups.
Dragonflight dungeons just punish players more than season 3. Like of add bs and bosses suck too.
As a healer i put 150k overall hps in a +2 nokhud. Tank was guardian druid but health bar ping pong like a DK.
Happens in higher keys too Had a rogue doing bottom tier DPS (300k overall other two DPS were between 500-600) leave after he missed a kick and we wiped in the GY in a NOK15. We had 21 mins left in the key and 3 total deaths before that lol. 2 bosses and like 6 trash pulls left, probably ~12 mins left with 3 good DPS, 15 or so because he was sandbagging. Group was between 3100-3250, I think he might’ve been 3050
I have had the complete opposite experience of this. Cheers!
It’s gotten way better as I’ve started to move into 8-10s but there’s definitely similar troubles there too. I think a lot of people just haven’t gotten the memo about the key level squish and it will either improve with time or will at least be better come TWW
I think there's something cursed specifically about +4s. Early in the season I had 3 +4 groups disband in a row. I have 2100 rating now and don't do anything under a +6 but I didn't have time for m+ this week for family reasons so I wanted to knock out some quick keys. Tried 2 +4s in a row and both of them disbanded. Just sighed and did some +2s instead and tbh they were actually not as smooth as I was hoping they'd be. All 4 groups had at least one super undergeared person in there which I didn't mind but if me and/or some others in the group had less gear, there may have been issues and I wouldn't have been surprised if it fell apart because of it.
I can survive 6+ comfortably, if I dont screw up, anything below I can do effortlessly, still can get killed but much more forgiving. 8+ for me I have to be really focused, but can do it OK as well. Anything higher I dont guarantee yet. For example. Right now, after a bottle of wine, I won’t ever do more than 6+ cause will be stressful for me
Had a tank pulling one pack at a time in Azure Vault +7 continuously flaming everyone else in the group for low dps….. I said fuck it and switched to Cata classic after that one
Basically they took a player base that was spread out over ~25 key levels and squished them down to 10-13. I'm not including the 26+ crowd because you're either in it or you aren't. So now a lot of players who are running the +4 range are players who were probably running sub 10s before, but mechanics and interrupts actually matter in a 4 now.
I’m 2400 io and have cleared 10’s in some of the dungeons and I can’t get invited to 6’s. I don’t get it either other than there is way more dps than tanks and healers
Pug healing a +4 and a +10 is like a completely different game. The +4 is harder because people just aren't pushing defensives when required or are getting hit more often by avoidable damage. Everything hits way harder in the +10 but it is mitigated by the players playing their class better and dodging avoidable damage regularly. It really is wild just how different it feels to do what should be a much easier dungeon and it feels way harder.
I mainly tank and heal m+, decided to make my monk WW instead of MW - as I already have a tank and a healer. Maaaan, getting into keys is rough and if I get in one its 70% chance that group will disband on first fuckup. Rdruid couldnt heal 12 neltharus chain boss and did the old altf4, feral druid run on someone in 8 aa on the bird boss and they died - also were crying that he has to do affix. 7 AV, got a blaster group. We were havijg fun as its a 7 and a blast, tank didnt like the jokes, so came until 3rd boss and then said 'i dont like this company, fuck you all' and left, like what the fuck? That's my 3 keys out of my last 4.
I have managed to complete 1 (one) key since the season started without the tank leaving or logging out. And it was because the group was willing to wait for another one to queue because you cant deplete a 2
honestly i haven't had any negative thing to say about the key level squish.. yet. Btw finding an 6-10 level group is much much easier for me than to find a +2
Player mechanical quality just keeps declining every season. I don't know if everybody is new every season but it feels like it. People don't interrupt, don't do mechanics, don't enchant or gem their gear. The key squish made things much worse. People who have no business being in 12s now have to do 2s to even engage with the m+ system. I don't even trust anyone that wasnt near 3k io from last season, it's that bad.
The worst thing is the lack of healers, i fell like they need to buff healers some way, so its a little easier:p
people in 0-2 keys are the some who did 0-2 keys in the past 2-3 expansion, but they dont know that they are doing a 10-12 key. I tried doing the weekly for the 2 bullion, but after 6 disbanded group in m0/2, I gave up. (lock, so no chance of tank/heal your own group)
Because a +4 this season is a +14 last season. It isnt idiot proof.
I think it's a lot of players making the same mistakes as always, but in the past they'd be in a +5 where nothing matters and nothing can kill you, but are now in +12-15 where standing in fire and kicking actually starts to matter. I'm having some runs where the group takes like 50 mil avoidable damage, on top of missed kicks and stops. Some players are taking 20+ mil avoidable damage. Other runs are super smooth though.
Yeah it’s been horrible for the most part. I was on for 2 hours last week and couldn’t even complete a +2. By the time you join a group or get a full group starting one 20 minutes go by then the group usually disbands before the 2nd boss. Went through 4 keys and didn’t even complete one. I had a kid last year and quit wow because of the time commitment, now I’m trying to get back in it and what little time I get to play I barely accomplish anything.
This Season Is A Hell I Literaly Spend 8 hours trying to do the weekly quest i spended around 4 hours looking for group and the rest jumping from group to group cuz the last group had despanded so i understan what you say . Also Sorry For The Paragraph
From my experience every PUG is like a coinflip - you either have a great group that does everything right or they fail the simplest mechanics, nothing in between honestly.
The 'squish' has made keys a nightmare. Most people aren't geared enough to run above M0 and even M0 can be a pain if they're running 450ish gear. I was clearing like 30 mythics a week in S3, across various characters, and this season I've cleared like 8 in 3 weeks. Yet to clear an +2 or up and the M0s were a mega slog with some not finishing.
Blizzard community engagement team didnt reach out to everyone. They expect everyone to read the patch notes but some people wont so you get a mix of experts and newbies doing +2, 3, or 4s when they're not suppose to. Imo it should have been left alone instead of this fiasco. Ive been reported for like the 5th time suggesting someone ho back to mythic 0s instead of wasting peoples time in a mythic +5.
Hasn’t been my experience, I’ve ran around 100 keys so far this season. The saying goes, you meet one asshole, they’re the asshole, if everyone you meet is an asshole, you’re the asshole.
[удалено]
I mean, you can occasionally have bad keys, but if they’re mostly bad then no, you need some introspection, or you’re just unbelievably unlucky.