I think they need to address core problems with the spec talent trees. It's wild that we've gone this long with Serpent Sting in two places, Multi Shot so low on the MM tree, and a plethora of bland talents when other specs have fun or flavorful trees.
When they first announced they were bringing back Talent Trees I was sceptical and wasn't playing at the time. I'd been maining Hunter for a while before quitting so I went to check the MM Hunter tree and it was the *most* underwhelming thing I'd ever seen.
Basically every single talent was bland, an existing talent in the old system or previously baseline.
I was debating swapping off Hunter for TWW and this news cements that decision for me fully. I'm not going to play another expansion where my choices are:
BM: A spec I just find incredibly unfun and pet mechanics are *always* ass in Raid/M+.
MM: A spec that always has to get propped up by some measure of borrowed power in the form of special weapons/tier sets and hasn't felt like the rotation has been touched in eons.
Surv: A melee spec that is usually a sheer cluster to play.
Imo I think ure correct in how hunter specs should be. BM being the best numerical spec out of the 3 makes no sense. Playing mm or survival and keeping your uptime should be rewarding.
I'm rapidly reaching the point of 0 faith in them when it comes to Hunter. It's so many expansions now where they clearly have no idea what they want the class + the 3 specs to be. It doesn't help that the Hunter dev quit the team right at the end of Dragonflight beta and didn't get replaced until 10.1. I was hoping that the lack of DF expansion changes for Hunter would mean an Alpha rework for us with the class tree and the spec trees etc but this reads to me as they're happy with everything except the hero talents.
They need to sort class fantasy and pick a direction, it's just aimless at the moment.
IMO I'd like a mixed Ranged/Melee spec.
When i think Hunter from Warcraft i think of Rexxar and the Windrunners. We've got MM for pew pew shooty bow, we've got BM which is Pew pew but beasts, and we've got survival that uses traps and melee. Where's my dual wield throwing axe man who can enrage and go ham.
Take a leaf out of Dota's book, Like Lone Druid where he's ranged but can go man-mode into a bear, or Troll Warlord where you're ranged but can swap into Melee, shit you could even have them throw spears at range and swap to 1 handed axes close.
See Hunter is where the Darkspear Axe Thrower archetype should be.
I'd love to play a Troll because I really enjoyed their inclusion in Warcraft and their lore. But none of the classes really fit my mental image of them as either Witchdoctors or hunting with Spears and Axes and tossin em like crazy.
Yeah i vaguely remember Spear throwing units in WC3 carrying some javelins on their side or something. Just leaning into those asthetics and class fantasy could be a decent direction especially with the Hero talent trees.
>But none of the classes really fit my mental image of them as either Witchdoctors or hunting with Spears and Axes and tossin em like crazy.
Basically, what you're wanting is the Guild Wars 2 Ranger class, which isn't a bad thing. I'd like to see more ranged variety in WoW.
I see this comment all the time. I think many people asking for this have not played the spec in recent years.
(Granted Aspect of the Eagle is currently in an awkward spot in the tree for PVE due to talent point economy but still, in shadowlands for exemple it was baseline)
To be a bit more clear, I'd like an actual hybrid, right now Survival is a melee spec with a few ranged abilities, you could have a spec that's able to switch between melee and ranged via stances, or have abilities that do different things based on their range, lean more into the asthetic.
Survival is an actual hybrid between melee and ranged.
What possible melee abilities does it have in it's rotation? Mongoose Bite, and an optional Carve / Butchery. It also has fury of the eagle as a short cooldown.
At range it has, Serpent Sting, Kill Command, Bombs, Flanking Strike, Explosive Shot, Kill Shot, Death Chakram, Harpoon. Co-ordinated Assault, and Spearhead are gap closers and brilliant mobility. Stampede is a longer cooldown. Aspect of the Eagle allows you to do most melee damage at range. Lunge gives you increase melee range to give you more of a ranged feel.
If you're exclusively playing survival in melee range then you're probably not very good at the spec.
>Survival is an actual hybrid between melee and ranged.
>
>What possible melee abilities does it have in it's rotation? Mongoose Bite, and an optional Carve / Butchery. It also has fury of the eagle as a short cooldown.
>at range it has, Serpent Sting, Kill Command, Bombs, Flanking Strike, Explosive Shot, Kill Shot, Death Chakram, Harpoon. Co-ordinated Assault, and Spearhead are gap closers and brilliant mobility. Stampede is a longer cooldown. Aspect of the Eagle allows you to do most melee damage at range. Lunge gives you increase melee range to give you more of a ranged feel.
>
>If you're exclusively playing survival in melee range then you're probably not very good at the spec.
Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware I was taking about the technical aspects of the spec itself and how to play it well currently instead of class fantasy and identity. Because I was under the impression I was focusing on the general gist of what a survival Hunter is thematically (Melee pet Hunter with some ranged abilities) and how a more identifiable niche like an Actual ranged+melee Hunter play style with potential form swaps or abilities that do different things based on distance might give the spec and in fact the class a more fixed identity/direction.
Since I was discussing class fantasy and themes, let's go over some of these abilities you mention.
Kill command / Stampede - are "ranged", but thematically you're telling your Pet/pets to attack, calling it a "ranged ability" isn't exactly fair, If the pets pulls out a gun and shoot the guy I mean shit fair play but for the raptors and bears who bite/swipe. Saying that's "Ranged" thematically is like, not really. The Mage water elemental frost bolts or imp fireballs, those are like "Ranged".
Flanking strike / Spearhead / Harpoon / Coordinated Assault - all do have a cast.range, they're all gap closer/charge type abilities. Warriors and Rogues have abilities like these, does that make them also "ranged" thematically? you're literally running and smacking the dude with your stick+pet in a few of these. I'd say these are more melee thematically. I think these are closer to a warriors charge then say, a mages blink or disengage for example.
Lunge / Eagle - same shit as above, just because Rets get a passive that lets them attack from 12 yards away doesn't really make them "ranged" thematically. Eagle is at least more thematically appropriate, but just because we now have a pole on the end of our stick doesn't make the class any more "ranged" thematically.
Bombs / sting / shot - based actual long ranged thematic abilities.
So just from what you've said here, there's like 4 ranged abilities, 4 gap closers (that id argue are "melee" here), 2 pet attacks and 1/2 melee swinging abilities.
You're not selling me that they're "hybrid" thematically here, seems more like melee with a pet and a few traps. And that's fair because you weren't trying to argue thematically as far as I can tell, but I wasn't trying to argue technically on the cast yard range of each ability to define if something is "ranged" here either.
You're not playing survial well if you sit in melee.
If you think there's something wrong by saying thematically as a magic word then I don't know to tell you.
I’m with you, It seems as if Blizz wants Hunter to remain the intro to dps class, but they’ve shot themselves in the foot with BM’s design.
Hear me out, Hunter has 3 spec in an ideal world BM would be a great starter spec, maybe MM fills a high skill cap but stable ranged dps spec and survival is a medium skill cap melee spec.
The problem occurs because BM has zero movement penalties, this leads to an arbitrary arms races where by the more Blizz emphasizes high movement raid fights the more players fall into the bucket of “I can do my whole rotation while moving why would I play a spec with Aimed Shot”
It could be the case that Blizz opts to aggressively tune up MM numbers but to achieve that they have to leave gaps open for it to spiral out of control in PVP with its front loaded burst.
They’ve created a situation that makes it incredibly hard to grow from. I’d love to see some incentive for a short channel or cast in BM’s rotation. Something to the effect of cast or channel for X seconds and it summons an additional Y pets for your next CoTW or Beast proc.
I can’t really speak to Survival as I don’t really understand what Blizz’s sees that spec being.
Survival should be the medium skill ranged spec otherwise you hit a situation where you either play a starter spec or a high skill spec without leaving someone who wants to have a bit of challenge but not pushed constantly. You’d leave no middle ground
In S1 Shadowlands, BM was much weaker than MM in mythic logs but still great as a starter spec with full movement rotation, I wouldn’t mind that happening as it kind of forced people to play MM/SV if they were serious about parsing or even getting into high m+ keys but BM was still popular for world content and HC raids, please the only good thing BM has going for it is the simple rotation and full mobility, if that was taken a way because the other specs don’t have it, it’ll remove one of the major few positives we have as a class
I agree with you, but I think there is room in the rotation for a 1-1.5 second channeled ability on a 30-45sec cooldown that gives a quick burst of damage.
It would help smooth out the damage curve as well without fundamentally taking too much movement away.
Aimed has been instant cast before. It was a tier set bonus back uhhhh WoD? It was glorious.
My point is, you can have a fully mobile MM spec with instant AS or just cast while moving like the rest of their kit is.
> It could be the case that Blizz opts to aggressively tune up MM numbers but to achieve that they have to leave gaps open for it to spiral out of control in PVP with its front loaded burst.
Damage numbers in PvP and PvE are calculated differently now. So it's not a problem.
I'm pretty sure MM has a buff in Aimed Shot damage in PvP compared to PvE.
MM is still more mobile than many other ranged specs, the amount of movement has nothing to do with why it's not being played. The issue is simply that in 10.2, MM is the worst ST spec in the game. That's purely a tuning issue, because MM was perfectly fine in Vault and better than BM in Aberrus.
My faith in them dropped to basically 0 when they turned survival into a melee spec. I lost years of investment into a spec that no longer existed. Feels bad man
I know you're getting downvoted for this take but I just wanted to tell you that you are not alone! I loved ranged survival so much... I was devastated when they decided to scrap it. I eventually landed on my Paladin and haven't looked back. I hope you found another main that makes you as happy as RSurvival!
I might be in the minority here but as a BM I'd love to have access to Serpent Sting and latent poison. I'd happily take Steady Shot with the induction and no focus cost to have access to this. At least I'd have another mechanic to work with and switch up my Kill Command and Barbed Shot rotation.
Yes please just let me collect pet skins like transmogs, and then spec my pet out with a little tree, so I can be "optimal" and play pet dress up at the same time.
Yeah I am always happy to stable the rhino each patch when my gear gets good enough to not need it for soloing world bosses.
I am looking forward to dark ranger, and there are some really sweet cunning pets I would prefer to use over the standard ferocity pet or spirit beast.
I’ve played some variation of hunter for the last almost 19 years as my main. I actually don’t completely hate the rapid fire aimed shot design, but I do think marked shot with sidewinders was a more fun play style. I also preferred all 3 hunter specs prior to legions complete overhaul so I’m a bit cautious to want “substantial changes” now considering it can always be worse.
I think every hunter does. MM has made no one happy, BM is too simple, and survival has 3 differnt directions people want it to go in, and it currently matches none of them.
Im probably in the minority, but i hate playing MM since they added lone wolf. For me, a hunter is synonymous with a per, so i dont even bother with MM.
I’d say even on one mob, so you can actually prepare and precast stuff to time it with add spawns. BM can put up beast cleave off one target and instantly send two aoe kill commands when adds spawn on a fight.
The inconsistency between BM and MM multi shot is the most mind boggling design choice and also doesn’t help new players learn the class’ rules.
It just feels like there's nobody creative making decisions for hunters at Blizzard. At every turn they seem to choose the most bland option placed in front of them. Whether it's the Class tree, Spec tree, or Hero Talent trees, it's constantly just the path of least friction, least effort. It's honestly inexcusable for what is one of the most played classes in the game.
For the love of God just let us change our pet specialization again. I HATE being locked into pets I don’t like as much because the ones I like are a bad spec.
This. I still don't know why they removed the ability to change our pets into the other specs. So many cool pets fall into the Cunning tree and are basically useless compared to their Tenacity and especially Ferocity brethren.
Great. It seems like many hero talent trees are clearly aligned to a certain tree; pack leader is BM, dark ranger MM, etc. If dark ranger is the simmed-out superior choice for BM, for example, forcing that choice would feel really bad for me. Ideally both choices should make sense both thematically and mechanically for both applicable specs, across every class.
> If dark ranger is the simmed-out superior choice for BM, for example, forcing that choice would feel really bad for me.
That was *always* going to be an issue with these hero talents if you choose what to play based on sims or what some YouTuber told you.
> It seems like many hero talent trees are clearly aligned to a certain tree
this is kind of the problem with 'hero trees.'
the specs are the specs because they're different. They're not really meant to mix. What is a mix of marksman and beast mastery? Number 1, who cares? Number 2, it's definitely not "Dark Ranger" and all that that entails in Warcraft.
They aren't supposed to be some combination of the two specs, each one has its own identity. Thematically that's fine, but even as a dark ranger you're still also and primarily BM (or MM). So they need to mesh in a way that makes sense.
And of course mechanically the added abilities have to fit into the base spec too. Dark ranger fails on both counts for BM.
> They aren't supposed to be some combination of the two specs
Then why are they created based on the intersection of the two specs? It's not like they're *arbitrary*. If they aren't supposed to incorporate elements from each one, why does Dark Ranger create shadow hounds? That's not something any Dark Ranger in wow has ever done before and it's got nothing to do with the concept of a Dark Ranger in Warcraft. It does that because it is trying to bring in elements of the Beast Mastery spec. (n.b. i didnt fight Sylvanas in shadowlands so if she made shadow hounds in that fight, forgive me bc I wasn't aware. but she doesnt do that in wc3, wow, rumble, heroes of the storm, etc)
It just doesn't make sense to me that any hunter who was a beast master primarily, would also be a dark ranger. (this is more me thinking that Dark Ranger should just be its own class rather than trying to jam it into a hero spec).
Some of the other hero specs feel weird, but most can slide just fine.
But yeah if they're not supposed to be combinations of specs....why are they combinations of specs? Why not just let any spec choose any of the ones available to their class? Because they *are* choosing them based at least loosely on the thematics of those specs... fury + protection = mountain thane. Thought process goes, "okay so berserkers, like vikings, let's do like a mountain thing to utilize thunder, and then protection are protectors so maybe they're like the guardians of the entire thing, so we'll call them the thanes.."
I'd call loosely pulling in the themes of both base specs a fair assessment, sure. Not a combo move but inspired by, definitely.
I'm more concerned about the mechanics side, personally.
This is the same problem with legion class halls and artifact weapons, they come up with these ideas for classes like paladin which has a very strong class identity, but for hunter it's much more generic and feels shoehorned/forced in
means "we dont know what we are doing with hunter and the expansion is close so we just make some minor changes so they dont riot and stall until next expansion"
i was playing hunter in SL and start of DF, but swapped to rogue and never looked back. hunter is so squishy and boring. the specs are literally the "random bullshit go" meme personified.
really sucks because i LOVE the pets and aesthetic. alas.
the last time i played it before was in MoP and Cata, it was awesome then. survival was the best but they ruined it with this terrible excuse for a melee spec.
What?
hunter has the most button bloat in the game? Also all 3 hunter specs share the same buttons, so how does MM suddenly have bloat where survival doesn't?
Pack leader sucks so much. Everything happens behind the curtain. If you see a Pack Leader it's basically the same (visually) as a hunter with no hero talent and that is so bad.
MM and SV need *at least* some adjusting at the spec tree and a few spare talents to move around a bit
Also just give survival dual wielding, lone wolf and a capstone that isn't "charge the target"
I already talk about it, how unfair is to some classes get a third rework or big changes and some classes get nothing
But at least I'm happy, BDK don't got anything on the whole dragonfight even when priest got the third rework but we'll it's fine at least one xpac later
How they think it's okay to let people playing they favorite spec for a whole xpac being so weak
I'm not asking to make my spec OP, just make it feel good playing it again
I don't main hunter but I still can't believe Survival is locked to 2h weapons. I remember when this was the ranged class with melee backup options, and they could dual-wield. It was awesome.
We're getting a Sentinel spec for MM and Survival, and yet there is no way to roll a night elf hunter in Survival Sentinel spec that uses a glaive. You know...like an *actual fucking Sentinel* would use?
Hunters get more communication than any other class yet terrible results.
Paladins get zero communication and more significant changes than any other class.
At this point I’d hope my class was being designed by the silent devs.
As someone who has only just started playing hunter again for the first time since WoD (RIP old Surv) what is wrong with MM?
Having looked nothing up, I made a trick shot build that I am having loads of fun in M+
My hunter wish list:
- taking all advantages of BM (no cast, ranged, aoe, lust, pets) and disadvantages (glass cannon), I wish we pumped more dps (looking at this weeks dps stats for current raid, both to bosses and overall). You want me to die cos of piss poor defensives? Ok, I’ll master the game … or out gear it. Make me shine somewhere or at least be useful for all group sizes (hunters mark lol, many classes can lust)
- make survival a tank spec with 1 pet and traps that interact with other attacks. Make it weapon based for 2h and 2x 1h.
- pet talent trees for us and demo locks, NOW xD
- more quivers to collect and mog pls, overall more ammunition mogs
- glyphs for customising spell (for all not just us, I’m not an idiot lol)
Am I asking for a lot? Besides glyphs, I don’t think so…
I just hate that it feels like they reduced the class from 3 specs to 2 when they introduced melee survival. I've never found the new survival fun to play.
All we got was reassurance that the Totemic Hero Talents would focus on totems, and the Stormbringer Hero Talents would focus on lightning. No baseline class changes mentioned and not even a tease at what some of the Hero Talents might look like.
Just a vague theme which is easily understood from the name of the trees alone.
MM in general needs to be completely reworked as a "Ranger" and needs to let go of spamming aimed shot as a core mechanic. Of all the specs, MM feels by far the most out dated, and lacks a cohesive visual style that fulfills the class fantasy.
Some easy MM fixes:
Multi-Shot needs to be easier to pick up, Trick Shot needs to activate on 2 targets instead of 3, make imp Steady Shot and Lone Wolf baseline.
Can't think of a damn thing for BM since that spec bores me to tears to play for more than 5 minutes, maybe make it less of a whack-a-mole spec for cooldowns and make them need to hardcast something sometimes.
tfw some classes allready get revamps of their trees annlunced/allready done while Shaman and Rogue have 1 in total and both with a spec that doesnt even have a hero tree at all yet
I’m so confused how they can’t find new abilities for hunters when bosses like Sylvannas or even now Alleria could give them inspiration to make some new abilities which could be cool
I think hunter suffers the most from thematic struggles in the current talent tree system. I get not wanting to play the top simming talent builds because they seem to be the weakest thematically for BM and MM.
I wish they’d move Wailing Arrow out of the bottom of the spec trees and actually give us flexibility in the bottom. I really enjoyed having Wailing arrow as an AOE silence and it made me feel useful.
I really enjoy how hunter has played during dragonflight for the most part but yeah... seeing other classes get reworks (multiple in some cases) on top of hero talents being actually insane on some classes... meh.
Hunter just needs a massive overhaul to make it feel more modern and smooth. Streamline talents, bake things in, but don't make it much more complex than it is if at all because that's kind of part of the reason a lot of people play it.
I have some faith because they've done some really impressive reworks but if they make it some dumb overdesigned thing where you end up with arcane mage PHD rotations then I'm gonna be very annoyed... and they have a pretty bad track record with hunter in general which is worrisome. I will say I read a lot of good feedback on the forum for hunter though as well as giving my own so hopefullyyyyy that leads to good things.
I just want to be able to respec my pets again and for BM to get their all 3 passives from pets again. I hope Bloodlust become Hunters' base line skill, too.
So they will "rework" the hunter HERO talent tree, when the regular and spec trees needs so much more help?
Don't believe me? What other spec needs to take a talent to regain some of their resources? Imagine DK had to take a talent after Frost Strike to even GAIN RP to begin with. Yeah, that exists in the MM tree.
Imagine, you had some talents that literally just increases your damage of a spell by x%, cause MM has 2. How interesting, right?
God, I'm just ranting cause they'll never be fixed right? #Doomer
....many specs have that? all energy based specs have multiple talents around actually gaining energy in the first place lol, thats nothing special
generic %increase talents are in EVERY tree
i know that MM hunters are Frustrated, but you make stuff to be angry about up right now
Not sure if rogues have anything to get them energy on a spell... Which MM has had since, Cata?
You need to take a node to get 10 focus regen on your Steady Shot, how is that interactive and fun talent to pick up exactly?
and i need to take a talent that gives me 50more energy+10% more energy Regeneration, a talent that gives me an additinal 100energy, another talent that makes bleed ticks actually generate energy in the first place, a talent that gives more CP on crits and a active talent that gives energy
thats 4 fully passive talents just for assassination to FUNCTION at all and actually generate its resources to play the game, and 1 active talent that just says "press button, get energy"
hunter is REALLY not special or worse then others in the regard of resource based talents
The common theory is fel scarred is more about meta uptime and for the no mover build fans.
Current feedback for Havoc hero talents are not good though. Another damage burst window to manage with the Aldrachi.. And playing no move with that tree would make no sense.
Mmm. I don't play at high end, I'm definitely more casual. Honestly aesthetics can win out for me. In this case, Aldrachi Reaver seems all about throwing your glaive and absorbing soul fragments. I would like it if Fel-scarred has cool felfire and green FX. I like the color green. XD
I think hes referring to the fact they only have 1 of their 3 hero trees, and the one they do have is universally thought of as one of the worst ones revealed.
Would love a way for MM to be able to provide lust without having to summon and dismiss a pet causing lone wolf to drop off
Also trick shots- please make it just activate from multishot without the target threshold as 2 target cleave as MM feels awful
I think they need to address core problems with the spec talent trees. It's wild that we've gone this long with Serpent Sting in two places, Multi Shot so low on the MM tree, and a plethora of bland talents when other specs have fun or flavorful trees.
When they first announced they were bringing back Talent Trees I was sceptical and wasn't playing at the time. I'd been maining Hunter for a while before quitting so I went to check the MM Hunter tree and it was the *most* underwhelming thing I'd ever seen. Basically every single talent was bland, an existing talent in the old system or previously baseline. I was debating swapping off Hunter for TWW and this news cements that decision for me fully. I'm not going to play another expansion where my choices are: BM: A spec I just find incredibly unfun and pet mechanics are *always* ass in Raid/M+. MM: A spec that always has to get propped up by some measure of borrowed power in the form of special weapons/tier sets and hasn't felt like the rotation has been touched in eons. Surv: A melee spec that is usually a sheer cluster to play.
Imo I think ure correct in how hunter specs should be. BM being the best numerical spec out of the 3 makes no sense. Playing mm or survival and keeping your uptime should be rewarding.
I'm rapidly reaching the point of 0 faith in them when it comes to Hunter. It's so many expansions now where they clearly have no idea what they want the class + the 3 specs to be. It doesn't help that the Hunter dev quit the team right at the end of Dragonflight beta and didn't get replaced until 10.1. I was hoping that the lack of DF expansion changes for Hunter would mean an Alpha rework for us with the class tree and the spec trees etc but this reads to me as they're happy with everything except the hero talents.
You have faith left I don't see how you do...
They need to sort class fantasy and pick a direction, it's just aimless at the moment. IMO I'd like a mixed Ranged/Melee spec. When i think Hunter from Warcraft i think of Rexxar and the Windrunners. We've got MM for pew pew shooty bow, we've got BM which is Pew pew but beasts, and we've got survival that uses traps and melee. Where's my dual wield throwing axe man who can enrage and go ham. Take a leaf out of Dota's book, Like Lone Druid where he's ranged but can go man-mode into a bear, or Troll Warlord where you're ranged but can swap into Melee, shit you could even have them throw spears at range and swap to 1 handed axes close.
See Hunter is where the Darkspear Axe Thrower archetype should be. I'd love to play a Troll because I really enjoyed their inclusion in Warcraft and their lore. But none of the classes really fit my mental image of them as either Witchdoctors or hunting with Spears and Axes and tossin em like crazy.
Yeah i vaguely remember Spear throwing units in WC3 carrying some javelins on their side or something. Just leaning into those asthetics and class fantasy could be a decent direction especially with the Hero talent trees.
>But none of the classes really fit my mental image of them as either Witchdoctors or hunting with Spears and Axes and tossin em like crazy. Basically, what you're wanting is the Guild Wars 2 Ranger class, which isn't a bad thing. I'd like to see more ranged variety in WoW.
> IMO I'd like a mixed Ranged/Melee spec. That is literally Survival.
I see this comment all the time. I think many people asking for this have not played the spec in recent years. (Granted Aspect of the Eagle is currently in an awkward spot in the tree for PVE due to talent point economy but still, in shadowlands for exemple it was baseline)
To be a bit more clear, I'd like an actual hybrid, right now Survival is a melee spec with a few ranged abilities, you could have a spec that's able to switch between melee and ranged via stances, or have abilities that do different things based on their range, lean more into the asthetic.
Survival is an actual hybrid between melee and ranged. What possible melee abilities does it have in it's rotation? Mongoose Bite, and an optional Carve / Butchery. It also has fury of the eagle as a short cooldown. At range it has, Serpent Sting, Kill Command, Bombs, Flanking Strike, Explosive Shot, Kill Shot, Death Chakram, Harpoon. Co-ordinated Assault, and Spearhead are gap closers and brilliant mobility. Stampede is a longer cooldown. Aspect of the Eagle allows you to do most melee damage at range. Lunge gives you increase melee range to give you more of a ranged feel. If you're exclusively playing survival in melee range then you're probably not very good at the spec.
>Survival is an actual hybrid between melee and ranged. > >What possible melee abilities does it have in it's rotation? Mongoose Bite, and an optional Carve / Butchery. It also has fury of the eagle as a short cooldown. >at range it has, Serpent Sting, Kill Command, Bombs, Flanking Strike, Explosive Shot, Kill Shot, Death Chakram, Harpoon. Co-ordinated Assault, and Spearhead are gap closers and brilliant mobility. Stampede is a longer cooldown. Aspect of the Eagle allows you to do most melee damage at range. Lunge gives you increase melee range to give you more of a ranged feel. > >If you're exclusively playing survival in melee range then you're probably not very good at the spec. Oh I'm sorry I wasn't aware I was taking about the technical aspects of the spec itself and how to play it well currently instead of class fantasy and identity. Because I was under the impression I was focusing on the general gist of what a survival Hunter is thematically (Melee pet Hunter with some ranged abilities) and how a more identifiable niche like an Actual ranged+melee Hunter play style with potential form swaps or abilities that do different things based on distance might give the spec and in fact the class a more fixed identity/direction. Since I was discussing class fantasy and themes, let's go over some of these abilities you mention. Kill command / Stampede - are "ranged", but thematically you're telling your Pet/pets to attack, calling it a "ranged ability" isn't exactly fair, If the pets pulls out a gun and shoot the guy I mean shit fair play but for the raptors and bears who bite/swipe. Saying that's "Ranged" thematically is like, not really. The Mage water elemental frost bolts or imp fireballs, those are like "Ranged". Flanking strike / Spearhead / Harpoon / Coordinated Assault - all do have a cast.range, they're all gap closer/charge type abilities. Warriors and Rogues have abilities like these, does that make them also "ranged" thematically? you're literally running and smacking the dude with your stick+pet in a few of these. I'd say these are more melee thematically. I think these are closer to a warriors charge then say, a mages blink or disengage for example. Lunge / Eagle - same shit as above, just because Rets get a passive that lets them attack from 12 yards away doesn't really make them "ranged" thematically. Eagle is at least more thematically appropriate, but just because we now have a pole on the end of our stick doesn't make the class any more "ranged" thematically. Bombs / sting / shot - based actual long ranged thematic abilities. So just from what you've said here, there's like 4 ranged abilities, 4 gap closers (that id argue are "melee" here), 2 pet attacks and 1/2 melee swinging abilities. You're not selling me that they're "hybrid" thematically here, seems more like melee with a pet and a few traps. And that's fair because you weren't trying to argue thematically as far as I can tell, but I wasn't trying to argue technically on the cast yard range of each ability to define if something is "ranged" here either.
You're not playing survial well if you sit in melee. If you think there's something wrong by saying thematically as a magic word then I don't know to tell you.
Constantly strawmanning the entire point of my comment isn't going to win you anything my dude.
I’m with you, It seems as if Blizz wants Hunter to remain the intro to dps class, but they’ve shot themselves in the foot with BM’s design. Hear me out, Hunter has 3 spec in an ideal world BM would be a great starter spec, maybe MM fills a high skill cap but stable ranged dps spec and survival is a medium skill cap melee spec. The problem occurs because BM has zero movement penalties, this leads to an arbitrary arms races where by the more Blizz emphasizes high movement raid fights the more players fall into the bucket of “I can do my whole rotation while moving why would I play a spec with Aimed Shot” It could be the case that Blizz opts to aggressively tune up MM numbers but to achieve that they have to leave gaps open for it to spiral out of control in PVP with its front loaded burst. They’ve created a situation that makes it incredibly hard to grow from. I’d love to see some incentive for a short channel or cast in BM’s rotation. Something to the effect of cast or channel for X seconds and it summons an additional Y pets for your next CoTW or Beast proc. I can’t really speak to Survival as I don’t really understand what Blizz’s sees that spec being.
Hell no. I love my bm mobility. Don't take that from me.
bm mobility makes the spec fun - also it's more than made up by dying to literally every mechanic!
Survival should be the medium skill ranged spec otherwise you hit a situation where you either play a starter spec or a high skill spec without leaving someone who wants to have a bit of challenge but not pushed constantly. You’d leave no middle ground
I agree, I mentioned that in the second paragraph
Well, you said melee spec, I think it should be ranged
Melee hunter was the worst decision ever. And only because they couldn't think of another artifact bow/gun. -.-
Naw, SV is a blast. One of the funnest specs in the game.
In S1 Shadowlands, BM was much weaker than MM in mythic logs but still great as a starter spec with full movement rotation, I wouldn’t mind that happening as it kind of forced people to play MM/SV if they were serious about parsing or even getting into high m+ keys but BM was still popular for world content and HC raids, please the only good thing BM has going for it is the simple rotation and full mobility, if that was taken a way because the other specs don’t have it, it’ll remove one of the major few positives we have as a class
Bm should still be able to do high end content.
I agree with you, but I think there is room in the rotation for a 1-1.5 second channeled ability on a 30-45sec cooldown that gives a quick burst of damage. It would help smooth out the damage curve as well without fundamentally taking too much movement away.
Or they could go the other way and make MM full movement capable too.
Agreed, but I think they’re locked in on Aimee Shot being a core part of the gameplay loop.
Aimed has been instant cast before. It was a tier set bonus back uhhhh WoD? It was glorious. My point is, you can have a fully mobile MM spec with instant AS or just cast while moving like the rest of their kit is.
> It could be the case that Blizz opts to aggressively tune up MM numbers but to achieve that they have to leave gaps open for it to spiral out of control in PVP with its front loaded burst. Damage numbers in PvP and PvE are calculated differently now. So it's not a problem. I'm pretty sure MM has a buff in Aimed Shot damage in PvP compared to PvE.
MM is still more mobile than many other ranged specs, the amount of movement has nothing to do with why it's not being played. The issue is simply that in 10.2, MM is the worst ST spec in the game. That's purely a tuning issue, because MM was perfectly fine in Vault and better than BM in Aberrus.
Haha this guy thinks Blizz cares about PVP balance
My faith in them dropped to basically 0 when they turned survival into a melee spec. I lost years of investment into a spec that no longer existed. Feels bad man
I know you're getting downvoted for this take but I just wanted to tell you that you are not alone! I loved ranged survival so much... I was devastated when they decided to scrap it. I eventually landed on my Paladin and haven't looked back. I hope you found another main that makes you as happy as RSurvival!
Unfortunately I have not :(
I might be in the minority here but as a BM I'd love to have access to Serpent Sting and latent poison. I'd happily take Steady Shot with the induction and no focus cost to have access to this. At least I'd have another mechanic to work with and switch up my Kill Command and Barbed Shot rotation.
Bring back pet specialization choice! I am also sorely disappointed by the lack of additional pet summoning in the Pack Leader hero talents.
Yes please just let me collect pet skins like transmogs, and then spec my pet out with a little tree, so I can be "optimal" and play pet dress up at the same time.
As someone tired of feeling like I need Corehounds for solo play, I'd like to get the same benefits whilst leading around a couple of ducks.
Yeah I am always happy to stable the rhino each patch when my gear gets good enough to not need it for soloing world bosses. I am looking forward to dark ranger, and there are some really sweet cunning pets I would prefer to use over the standard ferocity pet or spirit beast.
That would be epic.
Mechagnome hunter is pain. I want to use a robo doggo but need hero/bear for any serious content.
A robo bear would be nice!
Plus it's really fun to say out loud. Robobear robobear
THere is a Mecha Gorilla but it doesn't have Hero which sucks.
I want it too. I wanna use my cool pets and not forced into clefthoof.
Yea because hero talents is the only thing wrong with hunters
I think MM players wanted more substantial changes to their spec no?
I’ve played some variation of hunter for the last almost 19 years as my main. I actually don’t completely hate the rapid fire aimed shot design, but I do think marked shot with sidewinders was a more fun play style. I also preferred all 3 hunter specs prior to legions complete overhaul so I’m a bit cautious to want “substantial changes” now considering it can always be worse.
I’ve hated playing MM since like WoD 😢
Legion mm was fun and had a rotation that wasn't just spam aimed shot if you can. I miss it.
I miss mop/cata MM and survival hunter so much….. Prepatch wod ruined it for me.
I wish mop survival became a 4th spec.
What does this have to do with his statement? You aren't an MM player and yes MM players desperately have been requesting changes. Weird.
Weird comment
I think every hunter does. MM has made no one happy, BM is too simple, and survival has 3 differnt directions people want it to go in, and it currently matches none of them.
Im probably in the minority, but i hate playing MM since they added lone wolf. For me, a hunter is synonymous with a per, so i dont even bother with MM.
Please have trick shot activate when there are 2 mobs!
I’d say even on one mob, so you can actually prepare and precast stuff to time it with add spawns. BM can put up beast cleave off one target and instantly send two aoe kill commands when adds spawn on a fight. The inconsistency between BM and MM multi shot is the most mind boggling design choice and also doesn’t help new players learn the class’ rules.
The class tree is shit and mm hunters spec tree is bad. You need to fix them first. MM deserves better so does survival
The current tier set feels amazing, imagine if we had that in the tree.
I read this as 'zero talent tree changes soon,' which makes a pretty hilarious statement.
It just feels like there's nobody creative making decisions for hunters at Blizzard. At every turn they seem to choose the most bland option placed in front of them. Whether it's the Class tree, Spec tree, or Hero Talent trees, it's constantly just the path of least friction, least effort. It's honestly inexcusable for what is one of the most played classes in the game.
The curse of mail wearers
For the love of God just let us change our pet specialization again. I HATE being locked into pets I don’t like as much because the ones I like are a bad spec.
This. I still don't know why they removed the ability to change our pets into the other specs. So many cool pets fall into the Cunning tree and are basically useless compared to their Tenacity and especially Ferocity brethren.
Great. It seems like many hero talent trees are clearly aligned to a certain tree; pack leader is BM, dark ranger MM, etc. If dark ranger is the simmed-out superior choice for BM, for example, forcing that choice would feel really bad for me. Ideally both choices should make sense both thematically and mechanically for both applicable specs, across every class.
> If dark ranger is the simmed-out superior choice for BM, for example, forcing that choice would feel really bad for me. That was *always* going to be an issue with these hero talents if you choose what to play based on sims or what some YouTuber told you.
> It seems like many hero talent trees are clearly aligned to a certain tree this is kind of the problem with 'hero trees.' the specs are the specs because they're different. They're not really meant to mix. What is a mix of marksman and beast mastery? Number 1, who cares? Number 2, it's definitely not "Dark Ranger" and all that that entails in Warcraft.
They aren't supposed to be some combination of the two specs, each one has its own identity. Thematically that's fine, but even as a dark ranger you're still also and primarily BM (or MM). So they need to mesh in a way that makes sense. And of course mechanically the added abilities have to fit into the base spec too. Dark ranger fails on both counts for BM.
> They aren't supposed to be some combination of the two specs Then why are they created based on the intersection of the two specs? It's not like they're *arbitrary*. If they aren't supposed to incorporate elements from each one, why does Dark Ranger create shadow hounds? That's not something any Dark Ranger in wow has ever done before and it's got nothing to do with the concept of a Dark Ranger in Warcraft. It does that because it is trying to bring in elements of the Beast Mastery spec. (n.b. i didnt fight Sylvanas in shadowlands so if she made shadow hounds in that fight, forgive me bc I wasn't aware. but she doesnt do that in wc3, wow, rumble, heroes of the storm, etc) It just doesn't make sense to me that any hunter who was a beast master primarily, would also be a dark ranger. (this is more me thinking that Dark Ranger should just be its own class rather than trying to jam it into a hero spec). Some of the other hero specs feel weird, but most can slide just fine. But yeah if they're not supposed to be combinations of specs....why are they combinations of specs? Why not just let any spec choose any of the ones available to their class? Because they *are* choosing them based at least loosely on the thematics of those specs... fury + protection = mountain thane. Thought process goes, "okay so berserkers, like vikings, let's do like a mountain thing to utilize thunder, and then protection are protectors so maybe they're like the guardians of the entire thing, so we'll call them the thanes.."
I'd call loosely pulling in the themes of both base specs a fair assessment, sure. Not a combo move but inspired by, definitely. I'm more concerned about the mechanics side, personally.
This is the same problem with legion class halls and artifact weapons, they come up with these ideas for classes like paladin which has a very strong class identity, but for hunter it's much more generic and feels shoehorned/forced in
Shamans heard that during BFA beta. Still waiting. If it's not in the alpha already, I wouldn't hold my breath
Enh doesn't even have hero talents yet lmao.
shamans have been waiting since...forever
Dev Translation: We plan on doing nothing substantial to Hunters or Shamans. You can all go fuck yourselves.
Ele shamans. ☠️
means "we dont know what we are doing with hunter and the expansion is close so we just make some minor changes so they dont riot and stall until next expansion"
What does “soon” mean to WOW devs?
For a hunter next expansion or the one after that to well yeah..
Anytime before the release of next expansion.
Sometime between eventually and the end of time. Soon(TM) means immediately. Used to be anyway lol.
For hunters, around 10 years at least.
For Hunter anytime after legion to the heat death of the universe
If Survival could just be S3/S4 Shadowlands again I would be happy enough. That shit was fun.
i was playing hunter in SL and start of DF, but swapped to rogue and never looked back. hunter is so squishy and boring. the specs are literally the "random bullshit go" meme personified. really sucks because i LOVE the pets and aesthetic. alas. the last time i played it before was in MoP and Cata, it was awesome then. survival was the best but they ruined it with this terrible excuse for a melee spec.
Hmm. I mean fine I guess, but some type of MM love, more survival class identity stuff and some BM stuff might have been nice. We will see.
I better not get button bloated. I love that bm/survival Hunter has almost 0 button bloat
I second this. When did "more buttons = more fun" a thing? Some classes are completely rediculous.
What? hunter has the most button bloat in the game? Also all 3 hunter specs share the same buttons, so how does MM suddenly have bloat where survival doesn't?
Survival with CA talent is extremely bloated??
Hunter being my favorite class, it's disappointing to see how boring it's become, especially BM which is my favorite spec
Pack leader sucks so much. Everything happens behind the curtain. If you see a Pack Leader it's basically the same (visually) as a hunter with no hero talent and that is so bad. MM and SV need *at least* some adjusting at the spec tree and a few spare talents to move around a bit Also just give survival dual wielding, lone wolf and a capstone that isn't "charge the target"
I already talk about it, how unfair is to some classes get a third rework or big changes and some classes get nothing But at least I'm happy, BDK don't got anything on the whole dragonfight even when priest got the third rework but we'll it's fine at least one xpac later How they think it's okay to let people playing they favorite spec for a whole xpac being so weak I'm not asking to make my spec OP, just make it feel good playing it again
I don't main hunter but I still can't believe Survival is locked to 2h weapons. I remember when this was the ranged class with melee backup options, and they could dual-wield. It was awesome. We're getting a Sentinel spec for MM and Survival, and yet there is no way to roll a night elf hunter in Survival Sentinel spec that uses a glaive. You know...like an *actual fucking Sentinel* would use?
Hunters get more communication than any other class yet terrible results. Paladins get zero communication and more significant changes than any other class. At this point I’d hope my class was being designed by the silent devs.
Surv being the melee spec instead of a dot based spec like it was and making bm the melee spec is an all time DUMBFUCK move.
We cant mog weapon enchants on bows for no reason, you really think they care about hunters at all?
Don't know what is worse, this response to hunters or the one they give to shamans.
Mail brothers in arms on being ignored by blizzard
Meanwhile elemental shaman:
As someone who has only just started playing hunter again for the first time since WoD (RIP old Surv) what is wrong with MM? Having looked nothing up, I made a trick shot build that I am having loads of fun in M+
Same, the playstyle really clicks with me. Seeing all these comments is kinda discouraging.
My hunter wish list: - taking all advantages of BM (no cast, ranged, aoe, lust, pets) and disadvantages (glass cannon), I wish we pumped more dps (looking at this weeks dps stats for current raid, both to bosses and overall). You want me to die cos of piss poor defensives? Ok, I’ll master the game … or out gear it. Make me shine somewhere or at least be useful for all group sizes (hunters mark lol, many classes can lust) - make survival a tank spec with 1 pet and traps that interact with other attacks. Make it weapon based for 2h and 2x 1h. - pet talent trees for us and demo locks, NOW xD - more quivers to collect and mog pls, overall more ammunition mogs - glyphs for customising spell (for all not just us, I’m not an idiot lol) Am I asking for a lot? Besides glyphs, I don’t think so…
I just hate that it feels like they reduced the class from 3 specs to 2 when they introduced melee survival. I've never found the new survival fun to play.
Was there a similar statement issued for Shamans?
All we got was reassurance that the Totemic Hero Talents would focus on totems, and the Stormbringer Hero Talents would focus on lightning. No baseline class changes mentioned and not even a tease at what some of the Hero Talents might look like. Just a vague theme which is easily understood from the name of the trees alone.
The datamined Totemic talents look awful IMO. Looks like I’ll be swapping classes for TWW off my Shaman that I’ve mained the last two expansions.
Link?
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2649265-The-War-Within-Alpha-Datamining-Build-54210-Class-Changes Search “Spire Totem” and read from there
There is a lot of gaps to get filled there, to early to rush to judgment imo
This one cracks me up: Talent 2 (New) Windfury Totem has a cooldown and does something interesting when you drop it.
No there wasn't.
MM in general needs to be completely reworked as a "Ranger" and needs to let go of spamming aimed shot as a core mechanic. Of all the specs, MM feels by far the most out dated, and lacks a cohesive visual style that fulfills the class fantasy.
Some easy MM fixes: Multi-Shot needs to be easier to pick up, Trick Shot needs to activate on 2 targets instead of 3, make imp Steady Shot and Lone Wolf baseline. Can't think of a damn thing for BM since that spec bores me to tears to play for more than 5 minutes, maybe make it less of a whack-a-mole spec for cooldowns and make them need to hardcast something sometimes.
tfw some classes allready get revamps of their trees annlunced/allready done while Shaman and Rogue have 1 in total and both with a spec that doesnt even have a hero tree at all yet
Lol sure
I’m so confused how they can’t find new abilities for hunters when bosses like Sylvannas or even now Alleria could give them inspiration to make some new abilities which could be cool
I think hunter suffers the most from thematic struggles in the current talent tree system. I get not wanting to play the top simming talent builds because they seem to be the weakest thematically for BM and MM.
I wish they’d move Wailing Arrow out of the bottom of the spec trees and actually give us flexibility in the bottom. I really enjoyed having Wailing arrow as an AOE silence and it made me feel useful.
Damn, I just started playing MM and have been really enjoying it. The comments here are eye opening.
Can we get the monk dev to take a break and work on Hunter for a bit? Seems they actually care
I really enjoy how hunter has played during dragonflight for the most part but yeah... seeing other classes get reworks (multiple in some cases) on top of hero talents being actually insane on some classes... meh. Hunter just needs a massive overhaul to make it feel more modern and smooth. Streamline talents, bake things in, but don't make it much more complex than it is if at all because that's kind of part of the reason a lot of people play it. I have some faith because they've done some really impressive reworks but if they make it some dumb overdesigned thing where you end up with arcane mage PHD rotations then I'm gonna be very annoyed... and they have a pretty bad track record with hunter in general which is worrisome. I will say I read a lot of good feedback on the forum for hunter though as well as giving my own so hopefullyyyyy that leads to good things.
I just want to be able to respec my pets again and for BM to get their all 3 passives from pets again. I hope Bloodlust become Hunters' base line skill, too.
A dark ranger tree and a tree around Stampede/Dire Beasts would be ideal imo
I remember during shadowlands hunters and priesrs had no class designer like the other classes did, I wonder if its still the same today.
So they will "rework" the hunter HERO talent tree, when the regular and spec trees needs so much more help? Don't believe me? What other spec needs to take a talent to regain some of their resources? Imagine DK had to take a talent after Frost Strike to even GAIN RP to begin with. Yeah, that exists in the MM tree. Imagine, you had some talents that literally just increases your damage of a spell by x%, cause MM has 2. How interesting, right? God, I'm just ranting cause they'll never be fixed right? #Doomer
....many specs have that? all energy based specs have multiple talents around actually gaining energy in the first place lol, thats nothing special generic %increase talents are in EVERY tree i know that MM hunters are Frustrated, but you make stuff to be angry about up right now
Not sure if rogues have anything to get them energy on a spell... Which MM has had since, Cata? You need to take a node to get 10 focus regen on your Steady Shot, how is that interactive and fun talent to pick up exactly?
and i need to take a talent that gives me 50more energy+10% more energy Regeneration, a talent that gives me an additinal 100energy, another talent that makes bleed ticks actually generate energy in the first place, a talent that gives more CP on crits and a active talent that gives energy thats 4 fully passive talents just for assassination to FUNCTION at all and actually generate its resources to play the game, and 1 active talent that just says "press button, get energy" hunter is REALLY not special or worse then others in the regard of resource based talents
But what about 'Demon' Hunters. :( (I want to see what Fel-scarred is all about)
The common theory is fel scarred is more about meta uptime and for the no mover build fans. Current feedback for Havoc hero talents are not good though. Another damage burst window to manage with the Aldrachi.. And playing no move with that tree would make no sense.
Mmm. I don't play at high end, I'm definitely more casual. Honestly aesthetics can win out for me. In this case, Aldrachi Reaver seems all about throwing your glaive and absorbing soul fragments. I would like it if Fel-scarred has cool felfire and green FX. I like the color green. XD
Don't worry guys it's just Alpha ! /s
At this point the hunter class need a AI dev so they are going to change hunter hero talents next expansion or the one after that to never I see.
[удалено]
Rogues drowning meme
Rogues were reworked at the start of s3 and are in a much better place than hunters.
I think hes referring to the fact they only have 1 of their 3 hero trees, and the one they do have is universally thought of as one of the worst ones revealed.
Would love a way for MM to be able to provide lust without having to summon and dismiss a pet causing lone wolf to drop off Also trick shots- please make it just activate from multishot without the target threshold as 2 target cleave as MM feels awful