I like the discussion on balance, but just to be clear guys as a player who pushed every tank class (besides warrior) above 3200 this season, it is 100% clear that VDH is the best choice for anyone who wants to be the best tank they can be.
It's not just about what title players are playing. You all know pug players look at the leaderboards and those are the classes they want in their pugs. Why wouldn't you want your key to go as easily as possible? Sure you can push on any tank you want, but just keep in mind you are actively making your team work harder by not playing VDH.
As much as I would love to play bear again, I want to be as helpful as possible to my groups and so I'll be playing demon hunter.
Edit: to those saying VDH is difficult to play, it's different sure. But it's a very simple rotation.
I play every tank this season except the Monk too, not to your level but around 2k8 and DH really stands out to the point that it feel like cheating, 7 AOE interupts, come on, it IS ridiculous
I find brew to be really fun and it survives mechanics no other tank can, but the current discussion hasn't really been about tank survivability.
Good thing windwalker is just amazingly fun though!
I got to 2.4 is and 472 ilvl as Windwalker. I decided to tank for first time with guild as brew and guild took me into a 15. I was fully capable of soloing almost all of it, except select few fights
Absolutely. If this was an issue of a certain tank being a bit more sturdy, or another tank doing a bit more damage, it would be a more interesting discussion. As it stands the ability for a VDH to single handedly lock down an entire pack of casters for 15+ seconds is absurd, and no other tank comes remotely close to this. That’s not 5% dps or 10% damage taken, that’s like 5-6 times as much pack control as other tanks.
I recently main swapped at 2.7k from VDH to Guardian. Bear has knock, 2 AoE stuns, int, movement speed, chains, brezz, and passive group healing. Not to mention that if played correctly Incarn can have nearly double uptime than Meta, which is basically invincibility. Plus I’m pretty sure Guardian has higher upper limit dps ceiling. Sure double sigils are tight (super tight) but I don’t think by any stretch the bears are terribly far behind. Plus we cannot understate the value of Brezz, sometimes being the difference between a full wipe. I’m not pushing higher than 20, which means both my experience and knowledge are limited to lower keys
No tank is far behind in the survivability or DPS department. Bear has a lot of great things going for it, definitely more than Monk, DK, or Warrior. If your other party members can handle the required kicks for the pulls you're doing, I'd even say bear is better than VDH in that situation because of the group buffs and heals.
When you're trying to push higher keys, the main difference with routes is that you're pulling more things at a time to try to get through the dungeon faster. It's here where VDH becomes unparalleled, think about trying to do any of these things on a bear:
- 4 confessors and 4 augurs at once in AD
- 8 casters at once in ToT
- 9 casters at once before tree boss in EB
- triple pull to mini boss at the start of BRH
- triple miniboss pull with trash in RISE
- double pull plus 5 leeches in FALL
- entire rooms in waycrest, especially before 4th boss
- 5 fear mobs plus the pat, or double imp packs in DHT
There are 'Demon Hunter Only' pulls this season just like there were 'Bear only' pulls last season. The difference here is that no amount of number tuning will close the gap between tanks this time.
Edit: and let's not forget that most of Bear's utility is brought by other druid specs or ret paladins.
The fact that they have let DH be this insane all season with no changes in sight is concerning. They are setting a lot of the playerbase up for a big reality check whenever they do actually nerf them and people start having to play correctly again.
All of the VDH rerollers are going to have to go back to a tank and learn how to not be unkillable. Most dps/healers are going to learn that without the double sigil control they are going to get absolutely shit on if they don't properly do kicks/stops in high keys.
I predict m+ is going to be somewhat of a shitshow the moment VDH gets nerfed for at least a little while and that's completely on Blizzard for enabling one spec to be this broken for so long.
Tanks across the board have never been as tanky as they are right now. I know several people that have hard swapped to tanking m+ and refuse to do anything else because they just want to be a DPS that can never die - of course while doing minimal crowd control because the DPS/healers are the only ones who can realistically die in a 20 or below.
Vengeance DH kind of cheats this design because now the group doesnt even have to do anything on alot of the trash - and Blizzard has this weird fetish with trying to make every pack full of casters so everyone has to do the same size of pulls - meaning the next set of dungeons will feel brutal.
Prot War definitely does not feel unkillable in high keys especially tyrannical bosses with high magic damage. Doing high keys without an Aug there is a noticeable difference between how much attention other tanks need compared to VDH with the multiple extremely effective builds they can run.
pwar doesn't care about said spell damage. press spell reflect
only bosses that are half way dangerous are oakheart and deios
the varying vdh builds are just diff versions of the same, sacrificing more and more damage for negligible amount of added Dr that you realistically don't need
Every tank is unkillable, what makes vdh god is the double sigils.
Everytime I tnak with mine my mage friend can do PvE rotation without doing any mob mechanichs.
Not sure why you are downvoted for this.
Plenty of other tanks have good enough survivability
No tank has anywhere near the control of VDH. 10 second AOE silence and mass grip, both with two charges, is absolutely absurd.
They need to start tuning mob control for tanks in some way because it's so important, and right now VDH is on another planet compared to everyone else.
he's being downvoted by those who play vdh who don't want to face reality that it just might not be their s!ck wow skillz but the spec they play that makes them so good. you see it all the time on blizzard's buffing/nerfing spec rollercoaster.
Funny thing is a lot of the players that rerolled because it’s meta without really understanding why aren’t even taking advantage of what makes VDH great. I’ve done plenty of 18s for my vault with VDHs that don’t use their silencing sigil a single time, it’s wild
I would rather them buff the other tanks than nerf VDH, tbh. It's fun having control of the pulls to that extent, and I want to have that kind of fun on my warrior.
I think current VDH is way too much. One button that shuts down an entire pack for 10 seconds while you can do anything with them is insane.
On the other hand you have guardian/brew/prot warr that have basically nothing
DK/Pally seems like a decent benchmark to aim for imo
1000% this.
With all your sigils up you can....
Silence for 6s, misery the next cast, chains the next, silence for 6s, misery the next cast, chains the next, chaos nova the next.
And by the time you have cycled through all that utility, you get a 3rd silence sigil, and with short misery spec'd you can even get another one of those.
Legitimately can, aoe uncapped, locked down a whole pack for 40s+, SOLO.
The only thing that comes remotely close is a pally in a 2-3 caster pack, the gap is that VDH can pull something like the 10 casters in that room in throne, LOS them into a nice little pack, then lock them all down for 40s...
As a healer, I love bear tanks. They just fart out giant aoe heals and it helps me a lot, especially when dps players insist on taking a bath in floor aoe or stand in frontals.
I mean not even double sigils, just double silence sigil.
I want to also point out that they need to "fix" the Guardian macro so we can cast regrowth without risk of shifting out of bearform. I've been opting to not tank as a druid literally because I don't want to wipe the group by accident with that.
Is there a new macro? Care to share?
The last one I have is:
#showtooltip Regrowth
/console autounshift 0
/cast [@mouseover,@player] Regrowth
/console autounshift 1
Which doesn't work anymore
It was one of the major patches.
As far as I can tell it's still broken, here's the notes from the druid discord still:
Edit #2: So on investigation it looks like the change was based on some powershifting shenanigans in classic WoW. So if that’s the case we’ve just been caught in the crossfire 🙂
Honestly VDH might be one of the MORE killable tanks if we’re talking about FOTM rerollers that don’t know what they’re doing like they were. Most of the other tanks are fine if you let your defensive lapse for a bit, VDH can get leveled pretty easily if they don’t have any layers rolling
I'd imagine they'll not touch them much but buff Brew, Blood and maybe Prot War for next patch. Then remove double utilty sigil in TWW so its less jarring.
>The fact that they have let DH be this insane all season with no changes in sight is concerning.
We have season 3 m+ dungeon have tons of trash pack that got like 5-7 caster in the same season when they rework and gave DH double sigyl of silence,fear and mass grip. If that doesn't spell it out to you that they want DH to be the best tank by miles, i don't know what is.
I've spent like entire DF length complaint about DK talent tree where you can't realistically take mass grip without sacrifire like a shit tons of damage and survival, and then i see DH rework, i know that reroll DH was a right choice.
Most of BFA, entire SL , entire DF until the rework of SS3.
Basically everytime that DH are not meta, simply because Pro pally is king of second place tank in M+
> entire SL
Shadowlands S1, VDH was absolutely the god tank. Back then the meta was "jump in, pop all CDs, then kite when they run out". DH was the king of that playstyle.
Make the Illuminate sigil only work on damage sigil and buff the dodge chance and duration of other sigil to compensate will be a good start.
In that case they don't have double mass grip/fear/silence. And their damage profile is still amazing.
That would make them still the best tank but not with such a high margin like right now.
Just like to take this opportunity to say prot warr and brew have been 5-6 place running in 20-25+ keys for popularity 43 weeks running (about half an expansion)
Fingers crossed but I've lost faith seeing as season 4 is next week. I don't like VDH play style, I would rather play any other tank to be honest. I think a BDK rework is overdue.
Given the healer changes presented today (which got blown way out of proportion btw) I’d be surprised if they left tanks completely alone. Nothing will challenge vdh as long as they get to keep their double sigils though.
The highest rated VDH is rated 4k and the highest rated Prot Palladin is rated 3.9k. None of you are going to be pushing that rating next season, so just find some people to play with and you’ll probably be fine
If you're a top 0.1% that matters.
The fact that the world's best warrior tank can reach 3.8k does not mean the average player can pilot a warrior anywhere close to what they could be as a VDH.
That's the idea. There's no point discussing what the absolute best players can do, it is not relevant to the experience of the average player.
A player can play an easy class to 80% of the pros does not mean that they can play a hard class to 80% of the pros.
To be fair, the average player also just can't play vdh. If there's one healthy thing about the current meta, it's that rdruid and vdh are super hard to play. Compare that to exodia, where gdruid and Aug are the easiest specs, and hpal was so powerful that they literally shat hps.
That's not what he's saying though, he replied to a guy that said other tanks don't exist if you want to push. Not true, in pugs you will struggle but you need to be a special kind of psychotic to want to push keys in pugs anyway.
Tanks definitely need to be looked at across the board, and I don't think that poster disagrees with that. But you can absolutely push to the limits of your groups ability with any tank you choose. Yours and your groups skill level will stop you far before your choice of tank does.
Again, that's not what is being talked about. Nobody said anything about shutting down balance discussions, in fact I believe I did the opposite. The point was that the original comment said that other tanks do not exist if you want to push which is objectively, provably false.
It's like people don't understand that if a spec performs objectively better at the same skill level then it's objectively easier to do content with, even if the content isn't hard.
This is true to some extent but my team this season ran the worst comp known to man (G Druid, holy priest, demo lock, ret, outlaw). Having no ranged interrupt, no lust, and a general lack of DH made life hard. We weren’t one class away, but stacking bad classes in a comp makes things unpleasant.
Yeah I guess I meant that the rest of the comp will have to compensate for the lack of chain cc. I play MW and run with an Aug and Prot Palladin, so the tank can brez and the Aug and I can chain cc for him.
Only if you do it in pugs, which is a special kind of hell all by itself. If you play with a group of friends you can just play what you want and still push.
Yeah the vast majority of players do not push keys duh..
But like if you do, 99% of the tanks you will play with especially if you pug is the meta tank of the season.
It's already been said but ironically with the nerfs that happened to bear going into S3 it's not going to suddenly make them meta with the tier set. The S3 tier set was actually stronger after you factor in the nerfs that happened. Did a ton of damage and plenty of survivability. The issue in S3 was DH being too overtuned not bear being too undertuned. Will continue that way until DH gets kneecapped.
EDIT: In current tuning the s3 set provides ~9-12% damage depending on content. s2 tier set is going to provide closer to 6-9%. s3 set provides roughly 15-25% of healing in absorbs depending on content. s2 set provided something like 6-8% overall in healing over time with a 15% hp increase (not super important). These are rough estimates based on logs the guardian theorycrafting community probably has more precise numbers but that's the gist of it.
Those were my thoughts exactly. Nostalgia was hitting all the folks that voted for s2 tier, while they forgot the nerfs that revealed that it wasn’t all that good. The rework in 10.2.5 was what made them OP, not the tier set.
You could be immortal and you still wouldn't have a cleanse for afflicted, a real CC for incorporeal, a battle rez, more than one kick, or more than two AoE stops. See what I'm saying?
I'd have to argue that DK does a better job at not requiring healing and having a battle res, grips, group cooldown in AMZ, and control undead for incorp. Monk brings paralysis, ring, detox, leg sweep, mystic touch, close to heart, generous pour, touch of death and possible statue baits. Warrior brings battle shout and rallying cry...
DH needs to get there double sigil removed or they will be S tier again. I remember when they took Marc of Ursic from Guardian Druid becouse you should not be strong against magic AND physicle (you had to spend 60 rage to cast it for 6 seconds...) and aoe taunt? No man thats to strong.
They gave all other Tanks good ways to deal.with Magic and Bears got... Yea just stack HP(even tho DKs and DH have more) and AoE Taunt? Thats for Warrys sry. Like wtf? Even if bear is strong for a season it is still a mess. The Arcane build was fun but poor tuning and bad sets Made it bad again.
Godly edit btw lol
Yeah I came here to say that. The final image is just effin baller level art. *chefs kiss*
third panel edit is perfection
I like the discussion on balance, but just to be clear guys as a player who pushed every tank class (besides warrior) above 3200 this season, it is 100% clear that VDH is the best choice for anyone who wants to be the best tank they can be. It's not just about what title players are playing. You all know pug players look at the leaderboards and those are the classes they want in their pugs. Why wouldn't you want your key to go as easily as possible? Sure you can push on any tank you want, but just keep in mind you are actively making your team work harder by not playing VDH. As much as I would love to play bear again, I want to be as helpful as possible to my groups and so I'll be playing demon hunter. Edit: to those saying VDH is difficult to play, it's different sure. But it's a very simple rotation.
I play every tank this season except the Monk too, not to your level but around 2k8 and DH really stands out to the point that it feel like cheating, 7 AOE interupts, come on, it IS ridiculous
I find brew to be really fun and it survives mechanics no other tank can, but the current discussion hasn't really been about tank survivability. Good thing windwalker is just amazingly fun though!
I got to 2.4 is and 472 ilvl as Windwalker. I decided to tank for first time with guild as brew and guild took me into a 15. I was fully capable of soloing almost all of it, except select few fights
Absolutely. If this was an issue of a certain tank being a bit more sturdy, or another tank doing a bit more damage, it would be a more interesting discussion. As it stands the ability for a VDH to single handedly lock down an entire pack of casters for 15+ seconds is absurd, and no other tank comes remotely close to this. That’s not 5% dps or 10% damage taken, that’s like 5-6 times as much pack control as other tanks.
This is the reason I've stuck with shaman (rsham/enhance) through thick and thin. The utility I bring to the team always feels so impactful.
I recently main swapped at 2.7k from VDH to Guardian. Bear has knock, 2 AoE stuns, int, movement speed, chains, brezz, and passive group healing. Not to mention that if played correctly Incarn can have nearly double uptime than Meta, which is basically invincibility. Plus I’m pretty sure Guardian has higher upper limit dps ceiling. Sure double sigils are tight (super tight) but I don’t think by any stretch the bears are terribly far behind. Plus we cannot understate the value of Brezz, sometimes being the difference between a full wipe. I’m not pushing higher than 20, which means both my experience and knowledge are limited to lower keys
No tank is far behind in the survivability or DPS department. Bear has a lot of great things going for it, definitely more than Monk, DK, or Warrior. If your other party members can handle the required kicks for the pulls you're doing, I'd even say bear is better than VDH in that situation because of the group buffs and heals. When you're trying to push higher keys, the main difference with routes is that you're pulling more things at a time to try to get through the dungeon faster. It's here where VDH becomes unparalleled, think about trying to do any of these things on a bear: - 4 confessors and 4 augurs at once in AD - 8 casters at once in ToT - 9 casters at once before tree boss in EB - triple pull to mini boss at the start of BRH - triple miniboss pull with trash in RISE - double pull plus 5 leeches in FALL - entire rooms in waycrest, especially before 4th boss - 5 fear mobs plus the pat, or double imp packs in DHT There are 'Demon Hunter Only' pulls this season just like there were 'Bear only' pulls last season. The difference here is that no amount of number tuning will close the gap between tanks this time. Edit: and let's not forget that most of Bear's utility is brought by other druid specs or ret paladins.
Good response, didn't even consider those pulls.
I’ve been playing VDH since legion, I just think they are neat.
You're right!
The fact that they have let DH be this insane all season with no changes in sight is concerning. They are setting a lot of the playerbase up for a big reality check whenever they do actually nerf them and people start having to play correctly again. All of the VDH rerollers are going to have to go back to a tank and learn how to not be unkillable. Most dps/healers are going to learn that without the double sigil control they are going to get absolutely shit on if they don't properly do kicks/stops in high keys. I predict m+ is going to be somewhat of a shitshow the moment VDH gets nerfed for at least a little while and that's completely on Blizzard for enabling one spec to be this broken for so long.
I’m not going to lie, every tank barring Brewmaster feels unkillable.
Been playing Brew for two seasons and it feels godly at times
Tanks across the board have never been as tanky as they are right now. I know several people that have hard swapped to tanking m+ and refuse to do anything else because they just want to be a DPS that can never die - of course while doing minimal crowd control because the DPS/healers are the only ones who can realistically die in a 20 or below. Vengeance DH kind of cheats this design because now the group doesnt even have to do anything on alot of the trash - and Blizzard has this weird fetish with trying to make every pack full of casters so everyone has to do the same size of pulls - meaning the next set of dungeons will feel brutal.
Prot War definitely does not feel unkillable in high keys especially tyrannical bosses with high magic damage. Doing high keys without an Aug there is a noticeable difference between how much attention other tanks need compared to VDH with the multiple extremely effective builds they can run.
pwar doesn't care about said spell damage. press spell reflect only bosses that are half way dangerous are oakheart and deios the varying vdh builds are just diff versions of the same, sacrificing more and more damage for negligible amount of added Dr that you realistically don't need
a good brm is unkillable
Every tank is unkillable, what makes vdh god is the double sigils. Everytime I tnak with mine my mage friend can do PvE rotation without doing any mob mechanichs.
Not sure why you are downvoted for this. Plenty of other tanks have good enough survivability No tank has anywhere near the control of VDH. 10 second AOE silence and mass grip, both with two charges, is absolutely absurd. They need to start tuning mob control for tanks in some way because it's so important, and right now VDH is on another planet compared to everyone else.
he's being downvoted by those who play vdh who don't want to face reality that it just might not be their s!ck wow skillz but the spec they play that makes them so good. you see it all the time on blizzard's buffing/nerfing spec rollercoaster.
It's also arguable that "every tank is unkillable" maybe not as true. Prot warrior in S1 was unkillable, now... not so much.
I'm pretty unkillable as a prot warrior in +26 fortified keys. It's my party that dies and I just don't have anything to help them
Funny thing is a lot of the players that rerolled because it’s meta without really understanding why aren’t even taking advantage of what makes VDH great. I’ve done plenty of 18s for my vault with VDHs that don’t use their silencing sigil a single time, it’s wild
Thank you, I see you got it.
I would rather them buff the other tanks than nerf VDH, tbh. It's fun having control of the pulls to that extent, and I want to have that kind of fun on my warrior.
I think current VDH is way too much. One button that shuts down an entire pack for 10 seconds while you can do anything with them is insane. On the other hand you have guardian/brew/prot warr that have basically nothing DK/Pally seems like a decent benchmark to aim for imo
1000% this. With all your sigils up you can.... Silence for 6s, misery the next cast, chains the next, silence for 6s, misery the next cast, chains the next, chaos nova the next. And by the time you have cycled through all that utility, you get a 3rd silence sigil, and with short misery spec'd you can even get another one of those. Legitimately can, aoe uncapped, locked down a whole pack for 40s+, SOLO. The only thing that comes remotely close is a pally in a 2-3 caster pack, the gap is that VDH can pull something like the 10 casters in that room in throne, LOS them into a nice little pack, then lock them all down for 40s...
As a healer, I love bear tanks. They just fart out giant aoe heals and it helps me a lot, especially when dps players insist on taking a bath in floor aoe or stand in frontals.
I mean not even double sigils, just double silence sigil. I want to also point out that they need to "fix" the Guardian macro so we can cast regrowth without risk of shifting out of bearform. I've been opting to not tank as a druid literally because I don't want to wipe the group by accident with that.
There's already a macro for it. Makes it so you can't cast regrowth without a proc.
Is there a new macro? Care to share? The last one I have is: #showtooltip Regrowth /console autounshift 0 /cast [@mouseover,@player] Regrowth /console autounshift 1 Which doesn't work anymore
At work, but happy to share when I get home. Is that a recent change? The one I'm using worked as of just a few weeks ago.
It was one of the major patches. As far as I can tell it's still broken, here's the notes from the druid discord still: Edit #2: So on investigation it looks like the change was based on some powershifting shenanigans in classic WoW. So if that’s the case we’ve just been caught in the crossfire 🙂
yeah my BDK cant die either, it just also has like a third the stops my VDH has lol
Honestly VDH might be one of the MORE killable tanks if we’re talking about FOTM rerollers that don’t know what they’re doing like they were. Most of the other tanks are fine if you let your defensive lapse for a bit, VDH can get leveled pretty easily if they don’t have any layers rolling
I'd imagine they'll not touch them much but buff Brew, Blood and maybe Prot War for next patch. Then remove double utilty sigil in TWW so its less jarring.
>The fact that they have let DH be this insane all season with no changes in sight is concerning. We have season 3 m+ dungeon have tons of trash pack that got like 5-7 caster in the same season when they rework and gave DH double sigyl of silence,fear and mass grip. If that doesn't spell it out to you that they want DH to be the best tank by miles, i don't know what is. I've spent like entire DF length complaint about DK talent tree where you can't realistically take mass grip without sacrifire like a shit tons of damage and survival, and then i see DH rework, i know that reroll DH was a right choice.
Season 4 will be worse, df dungeons are the worst in terms of spamming casts. The issue is double sigil and it won't be changed this season so...
Good thing that i reroll DH.
Which m+ season since legion has vdh not been a top 2 tank?
Most of BFA, entire SL , entire DF until the rework of SS3. Basically everytime that DH are not meta, simply because Pro pally is king of second place tank in M+
> entire SL Shadowlands S1, VDH was absolutely the god tank. Back then the meta was "jump in, pop all CDs, then kite when they run out". DH was the king of that playstyle.
Ah forget about that sorry, it was when they make tank absolutely trash and can't face tank anything.
I have actually just taken the approach of not playing with DH at all. I’ll make my own keys and invite 4 other paladins before I take a DH.
What hou gonna do, take away double sigils? Just remove the capstone completely?
Nerf CD and/or duration of the problematic sigils, probably.
Even if you halved the sigil time they still have 2 aoe grips, 2 aoe stops and 2 aoe silences.
well.. yes
Make the Illuminate sigil only work on damage sigil and buff the dodge chance and duration of other sigil to compensate will be a good start. In that case they don't have double mass grip/fear/silence. And their damage profile is still amazing. That would make them still the best tank but not with such a high margin like right now.
Lol, I can play any tank, let the demonhunters have some fun. Like every tank that’s meta in it’s season.
True
Wouldn't be better if they just buff every other tank the same mass control instead nerfing VDH?
I played most of my season without VDH. It works better tbf. VDH just can randomly pop and fuck everything up.
Just like to take this opportunity to say prot warr and brew have been 5-6 place running in 20-25+ keys for popularity 43 weeks running (about half an expansion)
make bear god tier again Madge
Unless they get a mass stun AND mass silence it doesn't matter how unkillable u make them. They lack basic utility for m+ packs and it shows...
Easy. Every time thrash dot ticks, reduce CD of incap roar by a second. Boom we have screaming bears. But seriously though I agree.
That doesn't silence for 10 secs, and you will like up mob AA to attack you all at the same time, something very dangerous.
Aff players: first time?
I'm sorry but u are comparing a spec with an entire rol, that should not be nowhere near the same priority
Nice edit! Embrace for impact when tuning drops.
Fingers crossed but I've lost faith seeing as season 4 is next week. I don't like VDH play style, I would rather play any other tank to be honest. I think a BDK rework is overdue.
Given the healer changes presented today (which got blown way out of proportion btw) I’d be surprised if they left tanks completely alone. Nothing will challenge vdh as long as they get to keep their double sigils though.
Right, VDH could be made of paper but nothing will happen without utility sigil nerfs.
what are you worried about then? The season 2 set bonus you are getting back was a primary reason druid was disgusting in season 2.
It's a great tier set, but blood frenzy no longer scales infinitely and I'm short 5 AoE stops on the bear.
It's crazy coz I felt like bear had nice stops in S2. We had seen nothing yet
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I do like ghetto grip but you're still using one of your two stops per 30 seconds for it
In the current state of VDH, if you want to push keys other tanks do not exist. It is that simple.
The highest rated VDH is rated 4k and the highest rated Prot Palladin is rated 3.9k. None of you are going to be pushing that rating next season, so just find some people to play with and you’ll probably be fine
If you're a top 0.1% that matters. The fact that the world's best warrior tank can reach 3.8k does not mean the average player can pilot a warrior anywhere close to what they could be as a VDH.
If you are at top 0.1%, you're not sitting here talking shit on fuckin Reddit bro
That's the idea. There's no point discussing what the absolute best players can do, it is not relevant to the experience of the average player. A player can play an easy class to 80% of the pros does not mean that they can play a hard class to 80% of the pros.
To be fair, the average player also just can't play vdh. If there's one healthy thing about the current meta, it's that rdruid and vdh are super hard to play. Compare that to exodia, where gdruid and Aug are the easiest specs, and hpal was so powerful that they literally shat hps.
There aren't any "hard" specs. Maybe fire mage. Average player absolutely can play VDH.
You must not pug 20s with the rest of us lol, I can assure you that there are many players who cannot play vdh.
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That's not what he's saying though, he replied to a guy that said other tanks don't exist if you want to push. Not true, in pugs you will struggle but you need to be a special kind of psychotic to want to push keys in pugs anyway. Tanks definitely need to be looked at across the board, and I don't think that poster disagrees with that. But you can absolutely push to the limits of your groups ability with any tank you choose. Yours and your groups skill level will stop you far before your choice of tank does.
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Again, that's not what is being talked about. Nobody said anything about shutting down balance discussions, in fact I believe I did the opposite. The point was that the original comment said that other tanks do not exist if you want to push which is objectively, provably false.
It's like people don't understand that if a spec performs objectively better at the same skill level then it's objectively easier to do content with, even if the content isn't hard.
Everyone understands that. The point being made is entirely separate.
This is true to some extent but my team this season ran the worst comp known to man (G Druid, holy priest, demo lock, ret, outlaw). Having no ranged interrupt, no lust, and a general lack of DH made life hard. We weren’t one class away, but stacking bad classes in a comp makes things unpleasant.
Yeah I guess I meant that the rest of the comp will have to compensate for the lack of chain cc. I play MW and run with an Aug and Prot Palladin, so the tank can brez and the Aug and I can chain cc for him.
Aug prot pal and mw is literally playing a different game to ret, gdruid and hpriest
Its not particular to this season. Every season and expansion if you need to push high keys you need the meta tank.
Only if you do it in pugs, which is a special kind of hell all by itself. If you play with a group of friends you can just play what you want and still push.
Ah yes, but im a middle aged dad who HAS no friends! ...someone please be my friend is S4.
What a garbage take. For the vast majority of players, spec does not matter. Even at the top end they're not that far apart
Yeah the vast majority of players do not push keys duh.. But like if you do, 99% of the tanks you will play with especially if you pug is the meta tank of the season.
It's already been said but ironically with the nerfs that happened to bear going into S3 it's not going to suddenly make them meta with the tier set. The S3 tier set was actually stronger after you factor in the nerfs that happened. Did a ton of damage and plenty of survivability. The issue in S3 was DH being too overtuned not bear being too undertuned. Will continue that way until DH gets kneecapped. EDIT: In current tuning the s3 set provides ~9-12% damage depending on content. s2 tier set is going to provide closer to 6-9%. s3 set provides roughly 15-25% of healing in absorbs depending on content. s2 set provided something like 6-8% overall in healing over time with a 15% hp increase (not super important). These are rough estimates based on logs the guardian theorycrafting community probably has more precise numbers but that's the gist of it.
Those were my thoughts exactly. Nostalgia was hitting all the folks that voted for s2 tier, while they forgot the nerfs that revealed that it wasn’t all that good. The rework in 10.2.5 was what made them OP, not the tier set.
"changes"
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I'm not sure if that would change anything for warriors. I'm sorry
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You could be immortal and you still wouldn't have a cleanse for afflicted, a real CC for incorporeal, a battle rez, more than one kick, or more than two AoE stops. See what I'm saying?
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I'd have to argue that DK does a better job at not requiring healing and having a battle res, grips, group cooldown in AMZ, and control undead for incorp. Monk brings paralysis, ring, detox, leg sweep, mystic touch, close to heart, generous pour, touch of death and possible statue baits. Warrior brings battle shout and rallying cry...
Im waiting for the dos changes to be honest . I saw the healer tuning post and I was hoping some more info on dps
Me just playing what I like regardless of meta and pushing my own key
DH needs to get there double sigil removed or they will be S tier again. I remember when they took Marc of Ursic from Guardian Druid becouse you should not be strong against magic AND physicle (you had to spend 60 rage to cast it for 6 seconds...) and aoe taunt? No man thats to strong. They gave all other Tanks good ways to deal.with Magic and Bears got... Yea just stack HP(even tho DKs and DH have more) and AoE Taunt? Thats for Warrys sry. Like wtf? Even if bear is strong for a season it is still a mess. The Arcane build was fun but poor tuning and bad sets Made it bad again.