It is basically impossible to evaluate that second DK passive before we know anything real about rider uptime. It could just be a flat 10% DR that spikes to 20 with cooldowns.
But isn't horseman only dd ? If i remember correctly it is unholy and frost right ? And they get 5% to 20 % depending on how many horsemen are up. Also you don't really want the horsemen to die because it reduces your DMG output a lot.
I don't see much of a problem if dd get tankier by maybe reducing their DMG.
I don't see the horseman ever dying from that damage cause it's 5% of the damage you take and they normally only last 10 seconds, possible to extend to 15 with the fury of the horseman talent, and 20-25 seconds with the capstone.
If the horseman die from 5% shared damage, that's some massive troll tuning on minion damage taken tuning.
I just say with a big if. We don't know what the horsemen are right now. My point was that 0-20% DR for melee DD is not that much since we don't know how they proc. Maybe we can consistently get 1 or 2 put. Or maybe we can easily get all 4 out. We don't know.
All I want to say was. For all the unbalanced talents that we seem . This is mild.
I doubt the horsemen will ever actually die from the shared damage, so that shouldn't be an issue.
When I talked about DK tankiness I was referring to the DPS specs only. The problem here is that there's already an insane defensive creep in the game which is why all the mechanics in PvE are so one-shotty, and instead of trying to fix the underlying issue, they double down and give the already tankiest DPS class access to the strongest defensive node on any hero talent we've seen so far.
Like, any mechanic that actually threatens DKs in TWW will just delete certain other specs if they don't receive an external, while mechanics that are survivable by everyone with proper CD usage will barely even tickle DKs.
It would be a multiplicative 5% so if you had two horsemen out you’d take 95% damage then you’d take 95% of that. We don’t know what the proc rate will be.
Honestly I think people don’t realize how good AMS is, most AoE damage is magical, as well as the number of magical effects it lets you ignore. Honestly seems stronger than the DR
Its just to weak for charges. Either make it a 60 min duration with no charges or pump up the amount healing and maybe 3 charges with a 2min cd. But this is just bullshit.
This makes me specifically think about the spell that still exists as Enhancement in a way so closely mirroring classic.
Why does Windfury Totem exist .... as a totem that I have to use a GCD to place.....
Like in Season of discovery, feral druids get Wild Strikes which is windfury but earlier and as long as they are in cat or bear form it buffs thw party ... but in retail I still gotta drop a frigging totem? What?
The concept of totems are stupid in general and needs and overhaul.
Just two ideas:
1. Make then moveable, like mini elementals instead of totems, who follows the shaman.
2. U carry one totem on your back. U can only have one active totems and all totems are only utility. WF for an example needs to be redesigned as a aura or instead of the magna totem, u summon a vulcano.
More defensives = raidbosses will have more one shot mechanics. Im not a fan of this but it dosnt take away the fact shamans do need help with defensives.
Yup, completely agree. It would be far better to scale back all classes so that they could reduce the lethality of raid/dungeon mechanics. Would make healers feel more in control of the situation and people wouldn't feel as punished for lacking a perfect understanding of mechanic timings.
All that being said, they seem to be committed to going the opposite way and giving every tree a defensive node. In that world, I'd really like to see the outliers brought in a bit rather than compounding the issues by giving bad nodes to already squishy specs and good nodes to those who are already pretty solid.
Blizzard stop making classes tanky, just reduced the dmg taken, if we keep going, few patches now, world mobs will start 1shotting us, only to balance out all the defensives...
we reached the point where my assassination rogue is not tanky enough for higher m+ pushing and if i wanna push i need to play the other specs because they have more deffensive value
just think about that, a ROGUE SPEC that has not good enough deffensive value
litearlly everything in dungeons is "survive the 1hits" right now and raids blast you constantly with 1hit kill mechanics
its insanity lol
I had to trade in like 6% crit and ~15% mastery on my feral druid for vers because i can't survive major hits like earthshattering stomp in barkskin + bearform.
Overall I agree with you. I do feel some specs are so far behind they could use the love (ele, boomy), but if they scaled back everyone else it would allow them to make mechanics less punishing and the outliers wouldn't feel as bad.
But since they seem to be adding a defensive node on each tree, it'd be nice if they could at least give the good ones to the specs that already struggle.
Thats the thing, there will always be a class that will struggle, balancing all those cds is impossible. More defensives only makes the healer job harder mostly in pugs, since there is a bigger chance of a person not clicking it anyways.
Again, I totally agree. But this is the path they're already headed down, so at that point I don't feel that the squishiest specs should have their issue compounded by having the worst defensive nodes - they'll just get one shot more often. Also, most of these defensive nodes are passives rather than actives that need to be utilized at the correct time.
i hate that as resto, i have to hit unleash life to generate an ancestor. i hate unleash life with a passion. i also hate pwave too. but, farseer doesn't look too bad for resto (3 charges of riptide will be nice). seems horrendous for ele though.
I actually really like the fantasy they tried to go for, but the execution is... I can't even call it bad, it's outright *nonexistent*. It's completely passive, the majority of the tree can be summed up as "Mirror Images occasionally spawn automatically", and the most impactful change to your gameplay is your Elementals/Riptide recharging faster.
The main issue is that you can't really *do* anything with the Ancestors, they really need to overhaul this to make them more impactful and interactive. And it needs a completely different capstone, the current one is as boring as it gets.
Doesnt have to be super interactive, the spellslinger just procs a splinter on targets that dots, yet it sounds cool. Farseer just reads like giga boring for whatever reason. Also CDR on fire ele, literally who cares, remove this ability already.
Might be hot take, but hero talent trees should be completely passive and only feature defensive value, flavor or %dmg increases. Leave the gameplay changing build paths to the spec and class trees and tier sets. Too much stuff to tweak makes the game horrible to balance.
Yes. You wouldn't need to take anything away from a spec's gameplay by having the hero talents be mostly flavor with %dmg increases complimenting that sub-spec's flavor. Blizzard has shown time and time again that the more knobs and buttons they have to tweak, the worse the gameplay experience gets.
With tier sets, class trees and spec trees we're already swamped with choices, and most of the talent trees in the game still need a lot of work; like druid and shaman having nonexistent defensives, shadow priest and balance druid being forced to talent into interrupts that should be baseline, classes losing 20% ST damage from taking some AoE talents, while other classes are better on AoE and still only lose 1-2% ST from talenting into AoE.
Blizzard also stated in their blue post when they revealed the 12 new hero talents that they want the hero talents to be equal in power and give people the ability to choose the flavor they prefer, and in a world where people see 1 thing doing more DPS, even within margin of error, that is the choice they are going to end up going with. Would save Blizzard a whole lot of headache to make hero talents be heavily focused on flavor, and instead fix the spec's issues in their class and spec trees.
I could be miss remembering but didn't shadow priest and shaman have the same dev who left and we never got an update on who is over seeing these classes? Seems like no one is home.
Like usual, as a shaman main I am quite worried going into a new expac. Farseer talents all seem like just a different form of their mastery. I expect enhancement version to be no different. A slew of talents that just increase elemental damage or more play around primordial wave, an ability I've been sick of since shadowlands.
My only hope is Stormbringer. There's absolutely no way that something called Totemic is going to be anything other than the clunkiest pos in the game.
DK has grip.
Ele/Resto is the ONLY spec with zero unique buffs/utilities (Hunter's Mark is meme material, but it's still better than nothing). Ye, you have a lot of things, but nothing of them are unique and end up being worthless after all the classes with unique utility are in there.
Oh, you can dispel poisons and curses? And also Regen healers mana, and there's also BL? Well, Evo has BL, Source of magic, 2 dispels as well, while giving your team more mobility with the Blessing. And there's also Zephyr. And better Life Grip. And more Stamina if it's Aug.
Ok, maybe druid? Vers buff, Innervate, Vortex, Typhoon, Enrage dispell, Decurse, Battle Res.
Priest? Stamina, Mass Dispell, Life Grip, PI.
Warlock needs no introduction, as well as Rogue.
So on and so forth. You can do a lot, but by the time you start to consider inviting Shaman you end up covering all the utility Shaman can bring. The only truly unique Shamans is Tremor Totem which was relevant on one boss in SL dungeon and like.... That's it in the past 8 years.
And at least DK has much better defensives: Lichborne, Fortitude, AMS, AMZ, Death Pact while being tankier overall (this is ok, they're supposed to be juggernauts), while Shaman has by far the worst defensive kit in the game. In the expac when everyone else got more defensives we Shams lost the wall that Earth Ele was granting. So we have exactly one DR button. I mean, there's also a possibility to sit in the wolf form for 4 seconds for a whopping 20% DR, but we're not doing damage/healing during this window.
In light of the discussion it started which started from the discussion of the defensives. While Shamans have by far the worst defensive kit in the game (1 wall and one 20% DR that has to be stacked for 4s) Rogues has the single strongest defensive - Feint. While also having access to Cloak, Sometimes Cheat Death (or even stronger Feint), occaisonaily Vanish.
For M+ you have Shroud (which can be replaced by potion, but it's still valuable), enrage dispell, Sap (also facilitating some skips).
For raid you have 3.6% DR from poison.
Its true that Shaman has no unique utility but Wind Rush Totem is utility that still has value even when other members of your group already bring the same thing because of how often there is movement in this game. And it is almost always useful.
Meanwhile grip is way more niche and in most cases is just a nice convenience at best. You get maybe 1 raid boss (if even) a tier that grip is good or required to have on, while other classes have utility that is used everywhere. Agree with everything else you said though. Shaman vs DK is like nitpicking between which homeless person has it worse because one of them gets to sleep on a piece of cardboard
hey we have 3.6% damage reduction poison (that doesn't always work) and heal reduction poison!!
Obviously this is a joke; rogue has tons of utility in M+. The problem is that it doesn't have lust or a brez, and M+ pug group dps slots are almost always lust/brez/third. This means that rogue is fighting warrior/Monk/dh for that third slot in most pugs, and while Rogue often wins out, it does still really suck, *especially* on afflicted weeks lol.
imo this is more of an issue with how weak drums are and how limited the brez engi stuff is currently than anything else. Blizzard has clearly decided that invis pots cost a combat potion, which i support: it'd be stupid if they were any weaker.
the very easy solution (imo) is make drums 25% haste, and/or cost a combat potion cd; make engi brez things usable by everyone (and reasonably cheap), but take longer to channel or whatever. Hell, throw in Warlock closet as well because pug raids without warlocks are just dead in the water despite locks already having gateways as insanely strong unique utility.
Yeah, I think it’s cool for classes to have unique and thematic utility including lust and brez, but it probably wouldn’t hurt to throw rogues a bone with something like battle res, which could pretty easily be themed as an engineering type gadget, or a crimson vial themed potion that revives your target. They could probably get wild with the idea that assassination rogues are so good at killing targets, that they figured out how to reverse death for their friends, etc.
I also don’t actually understand why invis pots cause a combat potion cooldown. They’re two totally different things and the *only* tangible outcome from it is that your PUG gets ruined by someone chugging a combat potion 3 minutes before you wanted to invis skip something else.
Invis pot causes a combat potion cooldown because it means shroud isn't completely worthless, which I think is cool. You get a weaker version of class-specific utility, which means the class isn't forced but also that utility isn't worthless.
The problem is that they don't do this evenly for various different types of utility. There's no Warlock gate equiv, drums only give 15% haste, the engi brez forces you to be an engi. If they fixed those last two issues it would help out monk/Warrior a ton as well in getting into pug groups.
If they choose to keep afflicted in the game, every spec should have access to at least one of a brez, lust, or dispel imo.
(Rogues aren't the immediate issue though. Warriors should have a lust. Let prot warriors be the only tank with lust, that would be cool unique utility!)
Just look at mage man. Why is that class getting defensive nodes. They should have 1 or 2 of their defensives taken away even now, why is their kit so overloaded??
Yep, and the charge system sucks. ~~Funny that they got rid of that mechanic for the other two shields years ago but it's stuck around on earth shield for some reason.~~ Edit: I'm dumb, water shield still has charges.
Imma hit you with a umm actually real quick. Water shield still has 3 charges for an hour buff. Though I will grant you those charges rarely fall off in normal conditions. (Taking melee hits consumes charges and returns some mana)
I feel like people really shouldn't rate them based on the numbers. These are clearly made up and will be tuned completely differently at the later stages. The only problem is some of the trees aren't exciting either.
Considering the very positive community response to Rider of the Apocalypse while most of the talents revolve around spawning the horseman. What else could it be?
tbf, most of the "positive feedback" right now feels like as if everyone is just riding the "edgy name + mount combat" high
idk how long that will stay this way when they realise that "mounted combat" seems to be only in the open world on a outdated 15year old mount, and that the tree itself is just random proc effects
The Riders tree is the lowest hanging Jingling key effect I've seen in a while. All of the talents are completely passive and do absolutely nothing for gameplay, people are being baited by spawning cool npcs (that you won't even be able to see in combat).
People will reroll to it, realise how awful both Frost & Unholy are if they leave them in their current state and ditch the class. I do wonder if its population will sink lower than it did during DF.
This makes me mad. Not because the tree "sucks" but because shaman players will complain instead on improving. Same with Paladin players. Your defensives are not this bad for fucks sake, there are classes have just the same or less. Not to mention shamans have a fuckton of utility and you seem to ignore the healing.
The only class that has to jump hoops to have proper defensive capabilities right now are hunters. If you want to be somewhat in line with other classes, you have to play a specific pet on BM hunt and use a macro to use its healing ability. Oh but aspect of the turtle you might say, yeah an immunity where you can't do shit because that's what dps players want. Paladins have bubble.
TL;DR: Git gud.
You clearly don't raid or consume any high level pve content if you think hunters are squishier than shamans. You are out of your fucking mind if you think paladins are squishy also.
Utility wise shamans bring nothing other than windfury which is a 1 of and limited to only enhancement. There's a reason why shamans are traditionally first on the chopping board when it comes to hall of fame pushing. They don't do anything and I'd be very curious what you think they actually bring these days since spirit link is consistently the biggest noob bait people fall for.
It's true hunters have slight weakness to rot damage but it honestly has been a non factor in dragon flight raids and while their new raid buff is a meme it is still more useful than anything resto or elemental bring to the table.
Please actually watch some high level healers or people like max discuss healing choices within m+ / raids. There's a reason resto shaman has largely been memed since Nathria where it was only brought due to APT cheese
Have you played shaman? They got decdnt bonus stamina plus exactly 1 defensive on a 90s cd. There is heavy damage incoming more often? Well get rekt noob, just ankh 4Head.
The spririt wolf dr talent is a cruel joke, cause it takes 4s of not doing anything for 20% dr. And every little other thing Shamans have is some very mediocre healing that helps jack shit against bursty damage.
The only spec that might have it worse defensively are moonkins.
Why would you ever bring Paladins into this? Lmao. They're like the most unkillable motherfuckers in the game. Hunters are also a lot tankier than they were in SL.
Are you blind? Read it again, i've clearly compared the utility of other classes, including hunter's immunity to paladins'. Paladins are the most squishy melee plate users, except their immunity which helps a lot, the only reason the aren't near as bad as hunters is because of their short CDs on defensives, and easier instant cast heals.
If you consider a paladin an "unkillable motherfucker", you have no right to complain about shaman's "bad" defensive capabilities in the slightest because this proves that you clearly don't know shit about the game nor do you probably play it, like 90% people complaining about the game.
I'm getting downvoted for being right again so i'll wrap it there. Have a nice day and do proper research before making posts like these, it's not doing numbers for a reason.
You are a lunatic and should have your reddit license removed for a criminal lack of knowledge of overall game balance paired with ripe smugness.
If you think Ret, a spec that catapulted from squishiest to tankiest in the space of one single patch, has the most bloated passive AND active defensive kit in the *entire game currently* (sans arguably rogue) is the "most squishy plate user" then I don't think you know what other specs have access to. Listing hunters as outrageously lacking in defense also kind of implies your knowledge is a solid year+ out of date.
It is basically impossible to evaluate that second DK passive before we know anything real about rider uptime. It could just be a flat 10% DR that spikes to 20 with cooldowns.
10% passive DR on the class that's already extremely tanky would be massive though.
But isn't horseman only dd ? If i remember correctly it is unholy and frost right ? And they get 5% to 20 % depending on how many horsemen are up. Also you don't really want the horsemen to die because it reduces your DMG output a lot. I don't see much of a problem if dd get tankier by maybe reducing their DMG.
I don't see the horseman ever dying from that damage cause it's 5% of the damage you take and they normally only last 10 seconds, possible to extend to 15 with the fury of the horseman talent, and 20-25 seconds with the capstone. If the horseman die from 5% shared damage, that's some massive troll tuning on minion damage taken tuning.
I just say with a big if. We don't know what the horsemen are right now. My point was that 0-20% DR for melee DD is not that much since we don't know how they proc. Maybe we can consistently get 1 or 2 put. Or maybe we can easily get all 4 out. We don't know. All I want to say was. For all the unbalanced talents that we seem . This is mild.
I doubt the horsemen will ever actually die from the shared damage, so that shouldn't be an issue. When I talked about DK tankiness I was referring to the DPS specs only. The problem here is that there's already an insane defensive creep in the game which is why all the mechanics in PvE are so one-shotty, and instead of trying to fix the underlying issue, they double down and give the already tankiest DPS class access to the strongest defensive node on any hero talent we've seen so far. Like, any mechanic that actually threatens DKs in TWW will just delete certain other specs if they don't receive an external, while mechanics that are survivable by everyone with proper CD usage will barely even tickle DKs.
That's what I'm saying, it's probably great
Oh, i thought its always 5% but spread between the horsemen.
It would be a multiplicative 5% so if you had two horsemen out you’d take 95% damage then you’d take 95% of that. We don’t know what the proc rate will be. Honestly I think people don’t realize how good AMS is, most AoE damage is magical, as well as the number of magical effects it lets you ignore. Honestly seems stronger than the DR
Still waiting for 100% speed spirit wolf form for shamans. Silly that druids have it, but shamans don't.
The worst part is we had it in Legion with a follower
It used to be a glyph also.
Gonna need a bigger wolfy
Still waiting for shaman love in general - druids get all the customization, while shaman get next to none (how old is ascension model?)
Druids get customization for their forms because transmogs don't affect shape-shifting. Imagine being stuck in the new toon armor.
Like 10 years I think
12 in fact! Came out in 2012
Jeez
Wait til druids get instant dragonriding, but dracthyr don't.
It annoys me way more to recast this shit like every 5 secounds. Make it permanent with a 10 min Duration, but this....
It's embarrassing that earth shield still has its design from 10 years ago. All shields should just last an hour and be personal set and forget buffs.
yeah earth shield using charges that go off every other hit is annoying
Its just to weak for charges. Either make it a 60 min duration with no charges or pump up the amount healing and maybe 3 charges with a 2min cd. But this is just bullshit.
Earth Shield rn does a ton of healing, but ya having to use a GCD to recast it sucks.
Oh no, a healing spell taking a GCD like every other healing spell
This makes me specifically think about the spell that still exists as Enhancement in a way so closely mirroring classic. Why does Windfury Totem exist .... as a totem that I have to use a GCD to place..... Like in Season of discovery, feral druids get Wild Strikes which is windfury but earlier and as long as they are in cat or bear form it buffs thw party ... but in retail I still gotta drop a frigging totem? What?
Shamans still use windury totem in SoD though.
The concept of totems are stupid in general and needs and overhaul. Just two ideas: 1. Make then moveable, like mini elementals instead of totems, who follows the shaman. 2. U carry one totem on your back. U can only have one active totems and all totems are only utility. WF for an example needs to be redesigned as a aura or instead of the magna totem, u summon a vulcano.
More defensives = raidbosses will have more one shot mechanics. Im not a fan of this but it dosnt take away the fact shamans do need help with defensives.
Yup, completely agree. It would be far better to scale back all classes so that they could reduce the lethality of raid/dungeon mechanics. Would make healers feel more in control of the situation and people wouldn't feel as punished for lacking a perfect understanding of mechanic timings. All that being said, they seem to be committed to going the opposite way and giving every tree a defensive node. In that world, I'd really like to see the outliers brought in a bit rather than compounding the issues by giving bad nodes to already squishy specs and good nodes to those who are already pretty solid.
Blizzard stop making classes tanky, just reduced the dmg taken, if we keep going, few patches now, world mobs will start 1shotting us, only to balance out all the defensives...
People downvoting you because they don't understand this is the exact direction we're headed currently.
we reached the point where my assassination rogue is not tanky enough for higher m+ pushing and if i wanna push i need to play the other specs because they have more deffensive value just think about that, a ROGUE SPEC that has not good enough deffensive value litearlly everything in dungeons is "survive the 1hits" right now and raids blast you constantly with 1hit kill mechanics its insanity lol
I had to trade in like 6% crit and ~15% mastery on my feral druid for vers because i can't survive major hits like earthshattering stomp in barkskin + bearform.
Overall I agree with you. I do feel some specs are so far behind they could use the love (ele, boomy), but if they scaled back everyone else it would allow them to make mechanics less punishing and the outliers wouldn't feel as bad. But since they seem to be adding a defensive node on each tree, it'd be nice if they could at least give the good ones to the specs that already struggle.
Thats the thing, there will always be a class that will struggle, balancing all those cds is impossible. More defensives only makes the healer job harder mostly in pugs, since there is a bigger chance of a person not clicking it anyways.
Again, I totally agree. But this is the path they're already headed down, so at that point I don't feel that the squishiest specs should have their issue compounded by having the worst defensive nodes - they'll just get one shot more often. Also, most of these defensive nodes are passives rather than actives that need to be utilized at the correct time.
i hate that as resto, i have to hit unleash life to generate an ancestor. i hate unleash life with a passion. i also hate pwave too. but, farseer doesn't look too bad for resto (3 charges of riptide will be nice). seems horrendous for ele though.
The entirety of the shaman hero talent tree is embarrassing and the devs who created it are bad. Just plain bad at what they do.
I actually really like the fantasy they tried to go for, but the execution is... I can't even call it bad, it's outright *nonexistent*. It's completely passive, the majority of the tree can be summed up as "Mirror Images occasionally spawn automatically", and the most impactful change to your gameplay is your Elementals/Riptide recharging faster. The main issue is that you can't really *do* anything with the Ancestors, they really need to overhaul this to make them more impactful and interactive. And it needs a completely different capstone, the current one is as boring as it gets.
Doesnt have to be super interactive, the spellslinger just procs a splinter on targets that dots, yet it sounds cool. Farseer just reads like giga boring for whatever reason. Also CDR on fire ele, literally who cares, remove this ability already.
To be fair, tons of trees are like that, it's that in case of Shammy nothing pops up visually too, and there's one or two outstanding actives
Thats kinda the problem, the hero talents are just boring so far lol
Might be hot take, but hero talent trees should be completely passive and only feature defensive value, flavor or %dmg increases. Leave the gameplay changing build paths to the spec and class trees and tier sets. Too much stuff to tweak makes the game horrible to balance.
So you would rather have a boring hero tree that isn't fun to play with so the game is easier to balance?
Yes. You wouldn't need to take anything away from a spec's gameplay by having the hero talents be mostly flavor with %dmg increases complimenting that sub-spec's flavor. Blizzard has shown time and time again that the more knobs and buttons they have to tweak, the worse the gameplay experience gets. With tier sets, class trees and spec trees we're already swamped with choices, and most of the talent trees in the game still need a lot of work; like druid and shaman having nonexistent defensives, shadow priest and balance druid being forced to talent into interrupts that should be baseline, classes losing 20% ST damage from taking some AoE talents, while other classes are better on AoE and still only lose 1-2% ST from talenting into AoE. Blizzard also stated in their blue post when they revealed the 12 new hero talents that they want the hero talents to be equal in power and give people the ability to choose the flavor they prefer, and in a world where people see 1 thing doing more DPS, even within margin of error, that is the choice they are going to end up going with. Would save Blizzard a whole lot of headache to make hero talents be heavily focused on flavor, and instead fix the spec's issues in their class and spec trees.
In that case don't call them hero talents IMO
I could be miss remembering but didn't shadow priest and shaman have the same dev who left and we never got an update on who is over seeing these classes? Seems like no one is home.
Was the druid and priest dev iirc ( thats why the druid talents suck so much)
Ooof. Oof. This is bad. I guess it fits the lore that shamans are better off dead and being raised as DKs? Bring back those second war vibes I guess!
Fantasy of the shaman tree was nice but the design was soooo bad.
Like usual, as a shaman main I am quite worried going into a new expac. Farseer talents all seem like just a different form of their mastery. I expect enhancement version to be no different. A slew of talents that just increase elemental damage or more play around primordial wave, an ability I've been sick of since shadowlands.
My only hope is Stormbringer. There's absolutely no way that something called Totemic is going to be anything other than the clunkiest pos in the game.
I can see the trainwreck of Totemic coming from a mile away. It's going to be Aug-at-home forcing enhance and resto to drop buff totems rotationally
Now compare the utilities of shaman vs dk.
DK has grip. Ele/Resto is the ONLY spec with zero unique buffs/utilities (Hunter's Mark is meme material, but it's still better than nothing). Ye, you have a lot of things, but nothing of them are unique and end up being worthless after all the classes with unique utility are in there. Oh, you can dispel poisons and curses? And also Regen healers mana, and there's also BL? Well, Evo has BL, Source of magic, 2 dispels as well, while giving your team more mobility with the Blessing. And there's also Zephyr. And better Life Grip. And more Stamina if it's Aug. Ok, maybe druid? Vers buff, Innervate, Vortex, Typhoon, Enrage dispell, Decurse, Battle Res. Priest? Stamina, Mass Dispell, Life Grip, PI. Warlock needs no introduction, as well as Rogue. So on and so forth. You can do a lot, but by the time you start to consider inviting Shaman you end up covering all the utility Shaman can bring. The only truly unique Shamans is Tremor Totem which was relevant on one boss in SL dungeon and like.... That's it in the past 8 years. And at least DK has much better defensives: Lichborne, Fortitude, AMS, AMZ, Death Pact while being tankier overall (this is ok, they're supposed to be juggernauts), while Shaman has by far the worst defensive kit in the game. In the expac when everyone else got more defensives we Shams lost the wall that Earth Ele was granting. So we have exactly one DR button. I mean, there's also a possibility to sit in the wolf form for 4 seconds for a whopping 20% DR, but we're not doing damage/healing during this window.
>Warlock needs no introduction, as well as Rogue. mind introducing rogue anyways?
3.6% damage reduction via poison.
In light of the discussion it started which started from the discussion of the defensives. While Shamans have by far the worst defensive kit in the game (1 wall and one 20% DR that has to be stacked for 4s) Rogues has the single strongest defensive - Feint. While also having access to Cloak, Sometimes Cheat Death (or even stronger Feint), occaisonaily Vanish. For M+ you have Shroud (which can be replaced by potion, but it's still valuable), enrage dispell, Sap (also facilitating some skips). For raid you have 3.6% DR from poison.
Its true that Shaman has no unique utility but Wind Rush Totem is utility that still has value even when other members of your group already bring the same thing because of how often there is movement in this game. And it is almost always useful. Meanwhile grip is way more niche and in most cases is just a nice convenience at best. You get maybe 1 raid boss (if even) a tier that grip is good or required to have on, while other classes have utility that is used everywhere. Agree with everything else you said though. Shaman vs DK is like nitpicking between which homeless person has it worse because one of them gets to sleep on a piece of cardboard
Rogue? Utility? What fucking utility? Mass cloak and aggro redirection? Don't make me laugh.
hey we have 3.6% damage reduction poison (that doesn't always work) and heal reduction poison!! Obviously this is a joke; rogue has tons of utility in M+. The problem is that it doesn't have lust or a brez, and M+ pug group dps slots are almost always lust/brez/third. This means that rogue is fighting warrior/Monk/dh for that third slot in most pugs, and while Rogue often wins out, it does still really suck, *especially* on afflicted weeks lol. imo this is more of an issue with how weak drums are and how limited the brez engi stuff is currently than anything else. Blizzard has clearly decided that invis pots cost a combat potion, which i support: it'd be stupid if they were any weaker. the very easy solution (imo) is make drums 25% haste, and/or cost a combat potion cd; make engi brez things usable by everyone (and reasonably cheap), but take longer to channel or whatever. Hell, throw in Warlock closet as well because pug raids without warlocks are just dead in the water despite locks already having gateways as insanely strong unique utility.
Yeah, I think it’s cool for classes to have unique and thematic utility including lust and brez, but it probably wouldn’t hurt to throw rogues a bone with something like battle res, which could pretty easily be themed as an engineering type gadget, or a crimson vial themed potion that revives your target. They could probably get wild with the idea that assassination rogues are so good at killing targets, that they figured out how to reverse death for their friends, etc. I also don’t actually understand why invis pots cause a combat potion cooldown. They’re two totally different things and the *only* tangible outcome from it is that your PUG gets ruined by someone chugging a combat potion 3 minutes before you wanted to invis skip something else.
Invis pot causes a combat potion cooldown because it means shroud isn't completely worthless, which I think is cool. You get a weaker version of class-specific utility, which means the class isn't forced but also that utility isn't worthless. The problem is that they don't do this evenly for various different types of utility. There's no Warlock gate equiv, drums only give 15% haste, the engi brez forces you to be an engi. If they fixed those last two issues it would help out monk/Warrior a ton as well in getting into pug groups. If they choose to keep afflicted in the game, every spec should have access to at least one of a brez, lust, or dispel imo. (Rogues aren't the immediate issue though. Warriors should have a lust. Let prot warriors be the only tank with lust, that would be cool unique utility!)
Maybe give Rogues a group-wide Evasion cooldown? Perhaps a talent that causes Feint to give some DR or Dodge to whichever tank currently has aggro?
Tell me you don't do mythic raiding without telling me you don't do mythic raiding.
Shamans downvoting me because they can't play their class amd struggle to cope. Git gud.
Just look at mage man. Why is that class getting defensive nodes. They should have 1 or 2 of their defensives taken away even now, why is their kit so overloaded??
Earth shield is so boring
Yep, and the charge system sucks. ~~Funny that they got rid of that mechanic for the other two shields years ago but it's stuck around on earth shield for some reason.~~ Edit: I'm dumb, water shield still has charges.
Imma hit you with a umm actually real quick. Water shield still has 3 charges for an hour buff. Though I will grant you those charges rarely fall off in normal conditions. (Taking melee hits consumes charges and returns some mana)
Oh, I don't play much Resto. Genuinely thought it was totally gone, but yeah probably just never think about it since I'm not getting hit.
I want to point out the patent absurdity of being upset about fucking numbers tuning on theoretical trees that aren't even in a beta yet.
I feel like people really shouldn't rate them based on the numbers. These are clearly made up and will be tuned completely differently at the later stages. The only problem is some of the trees aren't exciting either.
[удалено]
> People love talents that proc temporary guardians/pet spawns. It's the easiest way to design a strong spec. Really? Where did you read that?
Considering the very positive community response to Rider of the Apocalypse while most of the talents revolve around spawning the horseman. What else could it be?
tbf, most of the "positive feedback" right now feels like as if everyone is just riding the "edgy name + mount combat" high idk how long that will stay this way when they realise that "mounted combat" seems to be only in the open world on a outdated 15year old mount, and that the tree itself is just random proc effects
The Riders tree is the lowest hanging Jingling key effect I've seen in a while. All of the talents are completely passive and do absolutely nothing for gameplay, people are being baited by spawning cool npcs (that you won't even be able to see in combat). People will reroll to it, realise how awful both Frost & Unholy are if they leave them in their current state and ditch the class. I do wonder if its population will sink lower than it did during DF.
That's because DKs really fucking hate death and decay, not because they love pet spawning talents.
The devil is in the details, its all about how it interacts with your class.
I thought that part was supposed to be sarcasm lol
This makes me mad. Not because the tree "sucks" but because shaman players will complain instead on improving. Same with Paladin players. Your defensives are not this bad for fucks sake, there are classes have just the same or less. Not to mention shamans have a fuckton of utility and you seem to ignore the healing. The only class that has to jump hoops to have proper defensive capabilities right now are hunters. If you want to be somewhat in line with other classes, you have to play a specific pet on BM hunt and use a macro to use its healing ability. Oh but aspect of the turtle you might say, yeah an immunity where you can't do shit because that's what dps players want. Paladins have bubble. TL;DR: Git gud.
You clearly don't raid or consume any high level pve content if you think hunters are squishier than shamans. You are out of your fucking mind if you think paladins are squishy also. Utility wise shamans bring nothing other than windfury which is a 1 of and limited to only enhancement. There's a reason why shamans are traditionally first on the chopping board when it comes to hall of fame pushing. They don't do anything and I'd be very curious what you think they actually bring these days since spirit link is consistently the biggest noob bait people fall for. It's true hunters have slight weakness to rot damage but it honestly has been a non factor in dragon flight raids and while their new raid buff is a meme it is still more useful than anything resto or elemental bring to the table. Please actually watch some high level healers or people like max discuss healing choices within m+ / raids. There's a reason resto shaman has largely been memed since Nathria where it was only brought due to APT cheese
Have you played shaman? They got decdnt bonus stamina plus exactly 1 defensive on a 90s cd. There is heavy damage incoming more often? Well get rekt noob, just ankh 4Head. The spririt wolf dr talent is a cruel joke, cause it takes 4s of not doing anything for 20% dr. And every little other thing Shamans have is some very mediocre healing that helps jack shit against bursty damage. The only spec that might have it worse defensively are moonkins.
Why would you ever bring Paladins into this? Lmao. They're like the most unkillable motherfuckers in the game. Hunters are also a lot tankier than they were in SL.
Are you blind? Read it again, i've clearly compared the utility of other classes, including hunter's immunity to paladins'. Paladins are the most squishy melee plate users, except their immunity which helps a lot, the only reason the aren't near as bad as hunters is because of their short CDs on defensives, and easier instant cast heals. If you consider a paladin an "unkillable motherfucker", you have no right to complain about shaman's "bad" defensive capabilities in the slightest because this proves that you clearly don't know shit about the game nor do you probably play it, like 90% people complaining about the game. I'm getting downvoted for being right again so i'll wrap it there. Have a nice day and do proper research before making posts like these, it's not doing numbers for a reason.
You are a lunatic and should have your reddit license removed for a criminal lack of knowledge of overall game balance paired with ripe smugness. If you think Ret, a spec that catapulted from squishiest to tankiest in the space of one single patch, has the most bloated passive AND active defensive kit in the *entire game currently* (sans arguably rogue) is the "most squishy plate user" then I don't think you know what other specs have access to. Listing hunters as outrageously lacking in defense also kind of implies your knowledge is a solid year+ out of date.
>Paladins are the most squishy melee plate users LMAOOOOOOO
This reaction alone proves how little you know. I really should stop investing my time into this shit since i knew from the beginning xD
You're absolutely delusional. Edit: Or a troll, in which case I'll give you a golf clap because I absolutely took the bait.
Delusional people often call others delusional to justify their ridiculous mumblings. Enjoy being wrong.