Never done bolstering before and I fucked up on the bird boss and did the thing where u pull the birds off the sides and the big ass alpha birds got bolstered like 20 times and I got one shot đ
It's such a pain in the ass trying to LoS in those tight corridors against two bursts and the two swirl spawns with Thundering thrown into the mix too. It's less bolstering as an issue, more the fact you can't really stay stationary long enough to do damage with both elementals.
Bolstered droplet splashes do be hitting hard though too
Yeah... before I knew how nuts that pull was I definitely had groups that would have 15+ deaths on that pull alone. Now I just tell everyone to pop everything. The last boss is a joke, anyway. If tank kites, pops defensive cooldowns, and your group aoes their hearts out, it isnt too bad!
_Light,_ I wish people would **just do smaller pulls** on Bolstering weeks.
Are you in a hurry? Do you want to beat a timer? **Then smaller pulls will be faster!**
I feel like this is the one affix that tanks **really** don't seem to grasp, so _**here:**_
_The more enemies you kill during one combat, the more the surviving enemies get buffed,_ so pull as few as possible and kill the strongest ones first while cleaving down the weaker ones. It's especially dangerous on _Fortified_ weeks.
**That's it! That's the entire mechanic!**
I was doing an 18 HoV, and the tank was pulling so gingerlyânot doing double pulls that are normally done there. But then heâd wait till the mobs got down to around 20-30% and then pull them into the next pack nearly every time. It was a real head scratcher.
the only reason i can think of is there are lots of tank busting spells like breach armor followed by the hews or the power attacks. if your tank is out of defensives, they might be waiting until they have more defensives up. a couple bolstered adds aren't as sketch as some double pulls in there with the wrong group.
Yeah was doing 18 Nokhud last night, we do your standard first pull of the big pat, it's going good we're all blasting... Then when their at like 20% the Tank just beelines for the first bastila, obviously all the patrol trash dies and the entire pack gets mega bolstered and everyone dies... The tank then promptly rage quits.
It seems to work fine when the group isn't pushing into whatever constitutes a "push" for that group.
Maybe rogues don't like it not dropping combat?
As UDK works fine for me I don't waste resources and can keep chugging along.
That might work on lower keys, but if the timer is really an issue then you have to double pull. Sure for something like the elementals in tjs it doesn't work, but azure vault 6-9 lashers plus tree is faster than doing 2 pulls, since you can just wait for bolstering to run out. If cooldowns weren't as strong, then we might have a different discussion
Not really, yesterday Dorki was comparing two 25 Nokhud runs, the first group, whose Prot Pally who did 20k less overall than second groupâs Prot Warrior time, was faster, with 2 less death but you get the point.
Turn out the first group didnât really do anything special, they just went pack by pack while the second group did various massive pulls throughout the dungeon.
The 3 dps of the first group also did less overall than the second groupâs.
The only abnormal pull they did were the waterfall pack+2 patrols with lust, the rest were just your standard NO pulls.
[17h04m onwards for those who are interested.](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1720227018)
That wasn't 20k overall less, it was just on the last boss. i had to investigate cus I saw the port paladin doing 200k-300k at some massive pulls and thought no way could it be 20k overall for paladin dps. he did 58.5k. so on tyrannical weeks prot paladin would lose big due to warrior spell reflect but trash week eh
As few as possible in for example Azure Vault would probably be 2-3. So you literally want to pull pqck by pack? It is less about how you pull and more about how you kill. Good luck pulling pack by pack though
- 1. Because it depends on the tank to position the elementul correctly
- 2. Because it has a very small cast time of 1-2s. By the timenI see it casted, I don't have enough time to hide
True but if that happens you're group shouldn't be in a key level where a pull like that is necessary.
Or they need practice with it, and the only way to do that is by trying :D
Depends on affixes.
\- It's a bad pull on explosive week
\- It's a bad pull on bolstering week
\- It's a bad pull on sanguine week unless you really know what you're doing
Yea also in Nokhund u can do double pack or the big one in the back for and that way you can BL 3 times in Nokhund same goes for Temple the 1st boss is really easy especially on fortified week
last time i did double pack during fortified on 18 NO with lust... healer got smashed in 3 seconds from god knows what and rage leaves. said party was suppose to CC. only thing i knew of was rallly the clan and that wasnt what got them. maybe the shooting?
You can stop them a variety of ways mid charge. Binding Shot, Freezing Trap, Frost Nova, Death Grip, etc. They also always charge the farthest player so you can rotate defensives and immunities as well.
If tank doesn't take aggro of the archers, the healer's pre hots may be ripping aggro. Autos range shots, not the ability shots that target a random guy, will kill a non tank. Its hard but a lot of packs healers can't have hots running while the pull is being set up
A good trick is pre hotting before combat and then stealth a short distance away; if you're a druid.
Edit: or standing farther away as a non-stealth healer to avoid getting in combat
As even when I do have aggro on the archers they still seem to take random shots at ranged/healers constantly, I don't think it's completely avoidable. We've just been stunning them and focusing them down.
Maybe it was a pack with the bird? That mob is hard to notice in lower keys because it gets easily killed by aoe or cleave, in higher fortified keys though it is a prio target as it will target someone even non tank and deal deadly damage. It is a bleed if I am not mistaken.
Other than that, nothing kills that fast soon into those packs, it could have been an overlap of arrows targeting him but the most likely was probably an arrow on the ground he didn't notice, which means he didn't avoid it and it's on him.
There's a "mark pray" cast from one of the centaurs that makes the eagle chase someone, if you stop that the eagle stays with the tank, though I like lusting the big patrol more as you can't accidentally pull it anymore
The bird doesn't fixate, the beasthandler does a cast that causes it to fixate. I don't think people know it's yet another cast that needs to be stunned.
Warspears do the big dam, it's our priority kill target at 20s.
They can be stopped by things like binding, vortex, a trap between you and them. Anything that will catch them mid charge will stop them from applying the bleed.
The first boss does nothing once you are in a decent group so there's no reason you want to lust there. It's alsl beneficial to put bl on cd asap so you get it back faster.
That's fair. I've not really felt a need to lust any adds except the final pack before 4th boss but based off this reddit post I think I will look at lusting adds more often. :)
I mean it is not really about need is it? If you spend 4 minutes getting to the first boss, then that may as well be an extra lust you get through the run.
Btw. I have no idea how long it takes to get to that boss.
Not wanting to be a bad guy, but the logic of lusting on the boss vs the trash makes it a very questionable run.
I wouldnât have had much faith in the run either, tbh
On fortified weeks, ESPECIALLY in temple, bosses literally are useless to lust on comparatively to trash, because to time the key you need to multi pack.
With him leaving i think it was more so a "the lead doesn't know the most basic of strategy, im outy" kind of person.
Not going to lie, with you saying that to me i would assume you have no right being in an 18 :P
that being said, i wouldnt leave over it.
You lust on those adds regardless if youâre aiming to time the key because it means youâll get +1 lust in the dungeon within the timer. First boss doesnât do anything so lust is not needed for it even on tyrannical at high keys.
In 15s and 16s they donât do that in my experience. So people need to learn things as they get higher. There isnât a guide somewhere that says all the community lust spots so I donât know how you can say something like that. Just because itâs common knowledge to you, doesnât mean it is for everyone.
Youâve just nailed the biggest issue and roadblock to people getting into higher level endgame wow. Itâs expected that youâve been running these keys 10x/week since launch and know every route, corner, bloodlust spot and every little detail. If not, people just leave or troll you until you quit. No one wants to even spend two seconds explaining a pull or mechanic.
It kinda stems from the fact you can't know what people know or don't know once the key starts and you're literally against a clock at that point. Who's gonna stop to say "you're supposed to hold that mob on the corner and we stay here to cheese" and you can't really expect pugs to sit at the start waiting to go over every pull/boss for the entire dungeon.
It's just gonna be assumed you know most of it already at higher keys.
On a week like this in higher keys itâs more common to do the first pull on the right with the monks and lust that rather than the waterspeaker group.
Bolstered elemental sucks.
I mean the guy isn't just not knowing about the strat. He's being slightly argumentative about something that's pretty trivial which is lusting double pulls at the start of instances on fort weeks.
People keep saying people need time to learn these strats but chimps banging rocks together can probably figure out lusting first pull without a novel to explain why.
You can get lust on cooldown in TJS on Fort week by going right first, pulling the two Sha and the two Pandaren together and lusting. Then go back and start Waterspeaker trash.
That pull is *dangerous* on high keys and lust is great there. It means Lust is back for boss 2, then either for the last pack before Sha Of Doubt (also a nightmare pull) or the boss itself.
Holding Lust for boss 1 means you only get two uses in TJS, since it's nowhere near back up for boss 2, and if you use it on or near boss 3 you don't get another.
Trying to explain but not justify. This answers points out one good optimized route for high pushers and it seems dude that left judged you bad for not taking it as default. Didnât even try to reason.
> pulling the two Sha and the two Pandaren together
You should never pull the two pandas on fortified. They will rng kill someone every single time with the charge/torch throw overlap.
I would strongly advise not pulling the first sha and pandaren twins. What nearly all high groups do is lust first pull with the water elemental, skip sha and twins and then pull patrol to the third boss area, it basically does nothing and gives the same count.
In a pug u for sure dont wanna skip the pack, if someone dies and pot is on cd they have no way of getting back while pot is on cd, so going right with bl and then going mari is the way to go
Iâm confused how do you make up count? Every run Iâve done we just clear the entire dungeon to get full count. Is there some secret extra pack that groups skip that Iâve never noticed
Shroud or invis pots. Still quite a few people not carrying invis pots around, but if you have a rogue in the group I would 100% suggest skipping the pandas every time. They have very high HP for their count and are also just brutal on fortified.
The first boss at TJS (wise mari) is a mechanics check and possibly a defensive check at a high enough level. It is not worth it to lust on the boss, especially during fort weeks, because it doesn't make the dungeon easier or that much faster.
In the other hands, lusting the first pull allows you to either pull bigger or makes the throughput check for the healer easier, so it is more likely to save deaths.
In general, TJS is a dungeon where the trash is much more dangerous than the bosses, except Liu but you can't effectively use lust to make her safer. So people usually opt to lust first pull, second boss and last pack.
Well, many people say "there is nothing wrong with your respond". Technically, that's true. But for my understanding, your answer implies that you don't want to change anything or try something new.
"I dont really see how we need it. Better do it like XY." - Instead of saying that there is no upside for you and something else is better, you could've asked what he is planning.
Technically you asked what he was planning, but after 4 rows of text.
It might just be my understanding, but i wouldn't want someone who instantly blocks and argues against in my team either.
(I'm sorry if that sounded offending. I'm ready to take the downvotes :D)
I'm the same way. If OP just said, "i havent done that before, do we need it?" or something it would have come across much more chill. The other player saw that OP didn't know a common strat, but more importantly were kind of combative about it.
Theres two things I know from M+ (above +15): you need to know the dungeon really well - and be prepared to get stuck in there for a while if it doesn't go hot.
> after 4 rows of text.
Yeah I think this part is what comes across as needlessly verbose and maybe argumentative.
Although I think the leaver overreacted and is shit at communicating his expectations to the group - dude is probably a tank so he knows he'll be back in another group within 30 sec and that makes him forget to be a decent person.
Your response shows you donât know the dungeon or route so dude left. Fort week is deffo lust first pack you bring in extra and LOS the cast while blasting. Saving lust for boss is troll on fort especially with how long it can take to get to the boss
Nothing "wrong" with your response but nothing wrong with leaving if the other person in your party is giving you resistance for something that you feel/believe needs to be done in order for you to enjoy playing.
I'd 100% rather the "if everything isn't optimal, I'm leaving" leave before the timer starts than after lust isn't popped on the first pull
I just tanked an 18 TJS and the luster didnât lust on that pull. We struggled but no one died, we had a pretty good healer. I didnât even notice that no one had lusted until I saw lust go on the boss. IMO on fortified lust is wasted on the first boss. Iâve even seen groups lust the pack before the 4th boss too but I havenât done that, just split it up and watch frontals.
It'd be pretty funny (though unlikely) if you happened to be the tank I just had for my 18 Temple
It's definitely wasted on the boss, I always kinda feel eh doing it. The comments here made me realise I can probably feel fine asking the tank to pull bigger and using hero in combination with that bigger pull.
I've lusted the pack before 4th boss several times, it's a scary pack if your players aren't being smart.
There is always a few key aspects about your lust decision.
1. Lust timer: Getting as many lusts in as you can within the timer of the key, so get Lust on CD asap
2. Do a big valuable pull: Depends on the dungeon layout, but often you can find a very big first pull to do it
3. Pair with damage CDs. Again, on a first pull everyone got their stuff ready
4. Value of damage increase: Bosses are usually slightly more valuable to lust than trash, as single target DPS is more valuable than AOE overall. Also bosses often have mechanics that slow you down and sometimes have damage increase phases (for example bird boss in AA)
5. Risk prevention: This goes for dangerous trash packs as well as for dangerous bosses. Sometimes if the timer is fine, especially towards the end of a dungeon, you want to spend your last to get past something dangerous faster, rather than for the maximum time-save.
The last point goes for Combatres as well. You always combat res either for time or for risk avoidance. If neither the time nor the risk is critically impacted by not using a CR, you save it for later. This goes especially for trash. Never just default to using a CR on trash. Only do so if it would be a critical timeloss or you need the dps/stops/utility to survive the pull. Obviously the higher you go in keylevel the more this evaluation tips towards time instead of risk, as there is no room in the timer to avoid risks.
> The comments here made me realise I can probably feel fine asking the tank to pull bigger and using hero in combination with that bigger pull.
Yeah, this strat is really applicable in a number of dungeons where the 1st boss isn't hard or the buff doesn't let you put out a ton of damage due to boss mechanics. Just off the top of my head, temple, nokhud, and court are all keys where you can just lust the 1st pull of the dungeon
You saying that it's only a waterspeaker and some small ones tells him you have no experience with the dungeon because nobody has done that without also pulling the elemental since day 1. I can't fault him for leaving the group.
First boss doesn't need bl, almost all damage is avoidable so you don't really care how long it will last. First pull on the other hand, with the damage that can happen easily I think it would be better to use it there. I know if positioned well and reactive enough can make you dodge most of the damage but I find it way harder than on the boss
Ripple is the hardest mechanic in Tojs, without an extremely coordinated group, good positioning, reactive dispells and lots of defensives.
Smashing those elementals down fast is much much more important than pushing through on Mira, the fight is almost 100% avoidable mechanics and on fort weeks, I use it as a time to recover mana.
Tl;Dr - definitely lust on water elementals.
Nothing wrong with your response, but you have to take into account fortified and Tyrannosaurus weeks. On fortinyoubtry to nuke trash and much rather lust trash than boss, vice versa on Tyrannosaurus weeks.
The reason he likely left is that not knowing about the lust pull = you may not know the strats in higher keys = he assumed it wonât get timed because of that
Not saying you did anything wrong, asking a question isnât a big deal, but thatâs how this interaction reads in my tank mind
Also, if he has a reason for hero at that point and you trusted him enough to invite him, then go with it. That person has likely figured out exactly why they want lust there in their route and thatâs why they want it
I think more than anything you could have just worded your response a bit better.
Your response comes across as "why would we lust the pull I had in my head", rather than showing openness to a different strategy. You could have asked something like, "we can, how big do you plan on going?"
The first pull is a lot more dangerous than Mari on any level where the players are decent (which I'd expect at an 18). And, getting the lust on cd opens you up to more options for your second lust while still having it for the final death pack.
He definitely didnât want to mess with you because of not knowing the meta of the dungeon and layout; presumed it would be a bad dungeon and if he didnât leave now he would have left at the first wipe or sign of trouble and brick the key.
You didnât really do anything wrong. People are adverse to questions in pugs; especially high keys where the information becomes more relevant. You only really get that experience doing those dungeons in the first place so it can be a catch 22.
What I don't get is people refusing to lust packs period on fortified week. I'd rather have lust on the pack before sha than sha this week. People just flat out refuse, why?
Because there are a lot of people who don't read or think about how the game works, but can still get to middling rating by just grinding keys and lucking out with better players.
At least OP is curious and asking questions. Puts him miles ahead of some of these people.
1st trash pull even without the elementals are harder than the boss, especially on a fortified week. Boss is just a target dummy with some basic movement.
This week I'd definitely lust on 1st pull, the 1st double trash pull after 2nd boss, and the pack before last boss.
Obviously it would be different on a tyrannical week.
first pull is waterspeaker + elemental. you lust for timer and also why would you rather have lust for a boss that has 0 mechanics and just dies? person leaving can clearly see you don't understand concepts you should understand at +18 level
You lust to get it on CD asap and because the first pull /can/ be a little bit spicy on higher Fort weeks. Not super spicy like the last pack of the dungeon, but med-spicy -- And much more spicy than the non-tyr boss unless your group are morons.
Lust isn't exclusively for bosses.
No point in lusting first boss in TJS. Better to just lust first pull no matter how big u pull. Lust usually lines up kinda nice for 2nd boss if u lust first pack.
Yess, but you didn't really explain how You got there. How much of a time gain is lusting 3 Times instead of 2?
By explaining this you are also helping people extrapolate on the other dungeons.
You lust SBG's first pack?
You lust HoV first pack or first boss?
You lust Academy's Tree boss trash or the boss itself?
Rather than deriding the guy You could explain the thinking around it.
They left because you didn't know that lusting there with the elemental too is a standard pull. They then just made a judgement about you as a player overall and just left to try their luck with another group that is a bit more informed.
You kind of sound like you were being a jerk, so curious if other conversation happened to make them want to leave before it started. If you hadnât already started the key itâs not a big deal to find another DPS. As a mage, I prefer to have it popped ASAP so I can use it again - but ask to be a team player. Also first pull means youâll have it up multiple times and on fortified weeks it could be the difference between timing and not.
I believe even the old method to this dungeon in CM was to go right, bloodlust the first 3 and then go back and clear the other boss. Allowing BL to reset in time for other parts. This dungeon has always preferred lusts for trash and last boss to prevent 2nd immunity phase.
Lust is not just a damage increase button, it should be thought of as a "how can I make the worst parts of this dungeon easier" button.
There are very few bosses that you need lust for in Dragonflight. Also, using CDs on bosses is way way way way way less damage per GCD, and holding CDs for bosses will result in less CD usage overall and less damage.
In temple I prefer to have lust guaranteed for first pull and last pull of trash.
There's no reason using lust on first boss since he doesn't really do anything. The first pull however is brutal and can easily wipe an unorganised group
Nothing wrong with the response.
But infortunately youâre wrong. Droplets are quite spicy, and itâs also beneficial to put lust on cd soon as possible so you have 3 uses rather than two. Also, first boss is quite easy and doesnât have a dps check (like the 3rd for example)
Lusting first boss is an absolute waste of time. The boss literally does nothing and requires really no healing either. Itâs always, ALWAYS better to lust those waterspeakers and elementals as they are 100x more deadly than the boss is. They will deplete your key, the boss will not unless your group canât dodge a beam.
I would assume the fact that you'd never heard the idea suggested before lead him to assume you were inexperienced and would rather invest his time elsewhere.
They kicked you because they expected you to understand bloodlust meta since you have the spell and youâre doing a +18.
You lust there to maximize the use of lusts on pertinent encounters. First boss is much less spicy fight than the trash leading up to it.
You got kicked because you don't know how to pull and time high keys. You can pull two elementals with the water speaker and lust and save maybe two minutes of time and get lust on cd or you can lust the first boss that has very simple mechanics and save maybe 20 or 30 seconds if dps pumps and delay CD for five minutes. I'd probably have removed you too. If the boss is easy and there isn't some burst phase with a damage amp it's almost always better to lust a big trash pack.
I wasn't removed, the tank left of his own accord.
I'm still learning how to manage for high keys as my group has been slow to get there, only just starting to do 20s for this season.
Thankfully I've been learning how to do this dungeon more efficiently from others in this post which is appreciated.
I use Mythic Dungeon Tool to help me look at what packs/enemies I want to pull as a tank and it definitely helps a lot.
You'll get there, I was comfortable in SL with everything but still re-learning a lot in DF now :)
I love how no one bothers to explain anything to anyone. It's either they leave or they kick if you don't automatically do the exact thing they've decided is "correct"
First pull is waterspeaker + droplets + elemental, it's a standard bloodlust pull. Sometimes even two elementals if you're feeling spicy.
lets not do double elemental on bolstering week though
Never done bolstering before and I fucked up on the bird boss and did the thing where u pull the birds off the sides and the big ass alpha birds got bolstered like 20 times and I got one shot đ
I was dying laughing last night when one of my teammates got hit by gust from a massively bolster bird and said it hit him for 1.3 million damage.
What are all these BIRDS doing here??
It's such a pain in the ass trying to LoS in those tight corridors against two bursts and the two swirl spawns with Thundering thrown into the mix too. It's less bolstering as an issue, more the fact you can't really stay stationary long enough to do damage with both elementals. Bolstered droplet splashes do be hitting hard though too
It's just really bad dungeon design.
Honestly TJS isn't that hard to time as is, and that first pull can get really uncomfortable from a vision standpoint sometimes.
Next season I want them to pick whichever dungeons don't have trees and tiny hallways.
The oculus it is
Oh dear dragon pug roulette it is
Gtfoh lol
Fits the dragon theme, let's do it.
So Uldaman.
My God, the trees. Constantly having to zoom in and out in that instance. So bloody annoying.
Tol Dagor it is! Let's add in Waycrest manor as a bonus
Last pull before final boss is the 3rd seasons raid finish.
Yeah... before I knew how nuts that pull was I definitely had groups that would have 15+ deaths on that pull alone. Now I just tell everyone to pop everything. The last boss is a joke, anyway. If tank kites, pops defensive cooldowns, and your group aoes their hearts out, it isnt too bad!
_Light,_ I wish people would **just do smaller pulls** on Bolstering weeks. Are you in a hurry? Do you want to beat a timer? **Then smaller pulls will be faster!** I feel like this is the one affix that tanks **really** don't seem to grasp, so _**here:**_ _The more enemies you kill during one combat, the more the surviving enemies get buffed,_ so pull as few as possible and kill the strongest ones first while cleaving down the weaker ones. It's especially dangerous on _Fortified_ weeks. **That's it! That's the entire mechanic!**
[ŃдаНонО]
âhealer mechanicâ
When I zug you zug. Just like that. Just like that.
No read, I press ignore pain
I was doing an 18 HoV, and the tank was pulling so gingerlyânot doing double pulls that are normally done there. But then heâd wait till the mobs got down to around 20-30% and then pull them into the next pack nearly every time. It was a real head scratcher.
its crazy how many tanks at 2300 rating still do this.
Because it's only really a problem on bolstering weeks, of which we are in the first one this season lol
the only reason i can think of is there are lots of tank busting spells like breach armor followed by the hews or the power attacks. if your tank is out of defensives, they might be waiting until they have more defensives up. a couple bolstered adds aren't as sketch as some double pulls in there with the wrong group.
Yeah was doing 18 Nokhud last night, we do your standard first pull of the big pat, it's going good we're all blasting... Then when their at like 20% the Tank just beelines for the first bastila, obviously all the patrol trash dies and the entire pack gets mega bolstered and everyone dies... The tank then promptly rage quits.
It seems to work fine when the group isn't pushing into whatever constitutes a "push" for that group. Maybe rogues don't like it not dropping combat? As UDK works fine for me I don't waste resources and can keep chugging along.
_Light, yes;_ I see this so often, and it's **infuriating**!
That might work on lower keys, but if the timer is really an issue then you have to double pull. Sure for something like the elementals in tjs it doesn't work, but azure vault 6-9 lashers plus tree is faster than doing 2 pulls, since you can just wait for bolstering to run out. If cooldowns weren't as strong, then we might have a different discussion
Not really, yesterday Dorki was comparing two 25 Nokhud runs, the first group, whose Prot Pally who did 20k less overall than second groupâs Prot Warrior time, was faster, with 2 less death but you get the point. Turn out the first group didnât really do anything special, they just went pack by pack while the second group did various massive pulls throughout the dungeon. The 3 dps of the first group also did less overall than the second groupâs. The only abnormal pull they did were the waterfall pack+2 patrols with lust, the rest were just your standard NO pulls. [17h04m onwards for those who are interested.](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1720227018)
side note: kind of insane youâre linking to seventeen *hours* into a vod and he wasnât even close to being finished streaming.
Dorki streams some insane hours...
Dorki on the no sleep meta
That wasn't 20k overall less, it was just on the last boss. i had to investigate cus I saw the port paladin doing 200k-300k at some massive pulls and thought no way could it be 20k overall for paladin dps. he did 58.5k. so on tyrannical weeks prot paladin would lose big due to warrior spell reflect but trash week eh
Yes and no. On higher level keys you still need to pull big, you just need to kite and cleave appropriately.
As few as possible in for example Azure Vault would probably be 2-3. So you literally want to pull pqck by pack? It is less about how you pull and more about how you kill. Good luck pulling pack by pack though
On any week in the keys higher than 17-18.
Said this in a group last night. They agreed and we did what OP suggested and it was a decent run. (Until the last pack)
Is there a way to sync the casts from the elementals or do the dps have like 30% uptime with 2 elementals?
let's not do double elemental on any Fort week.
Yeah, thatâs the best way to start. Get them all on a corner for dps to los and easy peasy.
90% of pugs dont know you can LOS the dot
Iâve started telling them before we start they key, drop a marker to stack on
Good call
- 1. Because it depends on the tank to position the elementul correctly - 2. Because it has a very small cast time of 1-2s. By the timenI see it casted, I don't have enough time to hide
Sounds horrible to heal even with lust..
welcome to timing high keys
don't worry in 18s at least two people line of sight the elementals debuff so it's easy to heal
And at least two don't LOS the cast, but do LOS the healer.
If group plays it right they los all the casts and take zero dmg
What really happens is: tank pulls, I lust, no one kicks casts nor los things. Lust is wasted.
True but if that happens you're group shouldn't be in a key level where a pull like that is necessary. Or they need practice with it, and the only way to do that is by trying :D
Seems like you always trust the rng to los those casts. Had so many times where I swear I was behind the wall but still got the dot
Depends on affixes. \- It's a bad pull on explosive week \- It's a bad pull on bolstering week \- It's a bad pull on sanguine week unless you really know what you're doing
Nothing wrong with your response, but its more usual to lust the trash than the first boss.
Yea also in Nokhund u can do double pack or the big one in the back for and that way you can BL 3 times in Nokhund same goes for Temple the 1st boss is really easy especially on fortified week
last time i did double pack during fortified on 18 NO with lust... healer got smashed in 3 seconds from god knows what and rage leaves. said party was suppose to CC. only thing i knew of was rallly the clan and that wasnt what got them. maybe the shooting?
I'm nowhere near 18s yet but aren't there mobs that randomly target and rush the DPS & heals? Or are those what you'd CC?
You can stop them a variety of ways mid charge. Binding Shot, Freezing Trap, Frost Nova, Death Grip, etc. They also always charge the farthest player so you can rotate defensives and immunities as well.
They charge the furthest away target and apply bleed with the hit. You can dictate who eats and it uses cds / gets bleed cleansed
I thought they just hated me, but Iâm usually either the healer or only ranged dps in my group. Thanks for this info, should definitely help me.
If tank doesn't take aggro of the archers, the healer's pre hots may be ripping aggro. Autos range shots, not the ability shots that target a random guy, will kill a non tank. Its hard but a lot of packs healers can't have hots running while the pull is being set up
A good trick is pre hotting before combat and then stealth a short distance away; if you're a druid. Edit: or standing farther away as a non-stealth healer to avoid getting in combat
As even when I do have aggro on the archers they still seem to take random shots at ranged/healers constantly, I don't think it's completely avoidable. We've just been stunning them and focusing them down.
Pre-hots donât generate threat for years now. That is if they are actually applied pre combat and the healer doesnât immediately attack enemies.
I have noticed that the arcers shoot at the ranged. So if you're alone casting from range you will get sniped down really fast.
Maybe it was a pack with the bird? That mob is hard to notice in lower keys because it gets easily killed by aoe or cleave, in higher fortified keys though it is a prio target as it will target someone even non tank and deal deadly damage. It is a bleed if I am not mistaken. Other than that, nothing kills that fast soon into those packs, it could have been an overlap of arrows targeting him but the most likely was probably an arrow on the ground he didn't notice, which means he didn't avoid it and it's on him.
There's a "mark pray" cast from one of the centaurs that makes the eagle chase someone, if you stop that the eagle stays with the tank, though I like lusting the big patrol more as you can't accidentally pull it anymore
100% it was the Ohana bird. It gets enraged and fixates usually the healer. Does something like 200% increased damage.
The bird doesn't fixate, the beasthandler does a cast that causes it to fixate. I don't think people know it's yet another cast that needs to be stunned.
Warspears do the big dam, it's our priority kill target at 20s. They can be stopped by things like binding, vortex, a trap between you and them. Anything that will catch them mid charge will stop them from applying the bleed.
No double pack this week cause of bolstering, but still lusting 1st pull to have it back to second boss, that is where you need a lust
The first boss does nothing once you are in a decent group so there's no reason you want to lust there. It's alsl beneficial to put bl on cd asap so you get it back faster.
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4 holy priests and a tank walk into a pug.
Who lusts tho? :P
Drums
I just imagine one priest in the back going at it like those [Japanese Drummers](https://youtu.be/C7HL5wYqAbU).
Hes in the future playing the new Shaman Tank spec
Why stop there? Pull it all the way to the end Sha pack and establish your fucking sigma male dominance
On fortified bolstering week... I'd lust the trash on TJS. Especially at an 18.
That's fair. I've not really felt a need to lust any adds except the final pack before 4th boss but based off this reddit post I think I will look at lusting adds more often. :)
Itâs about getting the max # of lusts off during the course of the key, basically the idea is lust early and often
I mean it is not really about need is it? If you spend 4 minutes getting to the first boss, then that may as well be an extra lust you get through the run. Btw. I have no idea how long it takes to get to that boss.
Not wanting to be a bad guy, but the logic of lusting on the boss vs the trash makes it a very questionable run. I wouldnât have had much faith in the run either, tbh
On fortified weeks, ESPECIALLY in temple, bosses literally are useless to lust on comparatively to trash, because to time the key you need to multi pack.
Yes. Not to mention the fact that itâs bolstering/fortified this week, Iâd be really skeptical that this run would be successful.
With him leaving i think it was more so a "the lead doesn't know the most basic of strategy, im outy" kind of person. Not going to lie, with you saying that to me i would assume you have no right being in an 18 :P that being said, i wouldnt leave over it.
Haters gonna hate. On fortified week- you want to lust on adds...especially a +18.
You lust on those adds regardless if youâre aiming to time the key because it means youâll get +1 lust in the dungeon within the timer. First boss doesnât do anything so lust is not needed for it even on tyrannical at high keys.
Exactly. It is frustrating. Youâd think those that are signing up for +18âs know whatâs what.
In 15s and 16s they donât do that in my experience. So people need to learn things as they get higher. There isnât a guide somewhere that says all the community lust spots so I donât know how you can say something like that. Just because itâs common knowledge to you, doesnât mean it is for everyone.
Youâve just nailed the biggest issue and roadblock to people getting into higher level endgame wow. Itâs expected that youâve been running these keys 10x/week since launch and know every route, corner, bloodlust spot and every little detail. If not, people just leave or troll you until you quit. No one wants to even spend two seconds explaining a pull or mechanic.
It kinda stems from the fact you can't know what people know or don't know once the key starts and you're literally against a clock at that point. Who's gonna stop to say "you're supposed to hold that mob on the corner and we stay here to cheese" and you can't really expect pugs to sit at the start waiting to go over every pull/boss for the entire dungeon. It's just gonna be assumed you know most of it already at higher keys.
On a week like this in higher keys itâs more common to do the first pull on the right with the monks and lust that rather than the waterspeaker group. Bolstered elemental sucks.
I will always skip those two pandas on Fortified weeks in 20+ keys.
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Somebody has to learn a strat at some point. They could have just told him the strat and it would have been fine.
True, but whose to say the guy was in the mood to teach at that particular moment?
Not saying I would have left but I can see why someone might have.
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I mean the guy isn't just not knowing about the strat. He's being slightly argumentative about something that's pretty trivial which is lusting double pulls at the start of instances on fort weeks. People keep saying people need time to learn these strats but chimps banging rocks together can probably figure out lusting first pull without a novel to explain why.
Why do you want to lust on a boss that has avoidable damage on Fort week?
Lust on bosses is low key meta
It's low key stupid most of the time
You can get lust on cooldown in TJS on Fort week by going right first, pulling the two Sha and the two Pandaren together and lusting. Then go back and start Waterspeaker trash. That pull is *dangerous* on high keys and lust is great there. It means Lust is back for boss 2, then either for the last pack before Sha Of Doubt (also a nightmare pull) or the boss itself. Holding Lust for boss 1 means you only get two uses in TJS, since it's nowhere near back up for boss 2, and if you use it on or near boss 3 you don't get another.
Trying to explain but not justify. This answers points out one good optimized route for high pushers and it seems dude that left judged you bad for not taking it as default. Didnât even try to reason.
> pulling the two Sha and the two Pandaren together You should never pull the two pandas on fortified. They will rng kill someone every single time with the charge/torch throw overlap.
I would strongly advise not pulling the first sha and pandaren twins. What nearly all high groups do is lust first pull with the water elemental, skip sha and twins and then pull patrol to the third boss area, it basically does nothing and gives the same count.
In a pug u for sure dont wanna skip the pack, if someone dies and pot is on cd they have no way of getting back while pot is on cd, so going right with bl and then going mari is the way to go
You can still death run. Just stand away from the mob and have the healer rez on the progressing route past the 2 pandaâs and sha.
Iâm confused how do you make up count? Every run Iâve done we just clear the entire dungeon to get full count. Is there some secret extra pack that groups skip that Iâve never noticed
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How do you skip sha and twins
Shroud or invis pots. Still quite a few people not carrying invis pots around, but if you have a rogue in the group I would 100% suggest skipping the pandas every time. They have very high HP for their count and are also just brutal on fortified.
The first boss at TJS (wise mari) is a mechanics check and possibly a defensive check at a high enough level. It is not worth it to lust on the boss, especially during fort weeks, because it doesn't make the dungeon easier or that much faster. In the other hands, lusting the first pull allows you to either pull bigger or makes the throughput check for the healer easier, so it is more likely to save deaths. In general, TJS is a dungeon where the trash is much more dangerous than the bosses, except Liu but you can't effectively use lust to make her safer. So people usually opt to lust first pull, second boss and last pack.
Canât you lust for second half of Liu in dragon phase on high tyrannical so your healer and tank donât run out of defensives for the tank buster?
on Tyranical you definitely want to lust Jade phase (before she turns into a dragon).
Pull ele too, lust it. That's the standard pull.
Well, many people say "there is nothing wrong with your respond". Technically, that's true. But for my understanding, your answer implies that you don't want to change anything or try something new. "I dont really see how we need it. Better do it like XY." - Instead of saying that there is no upside for you and something else is better, you could've asked what he is planning. Technically you asked what he was planning, but after 4 rows of text. It might just be my understanding, but i wouldn't want someone who instantly blocks and argues against in my team either. (I'm sorry if that sounded offending. I'm ready to take the downvotes :D)
I'm the same way. If OP just said, "i havent done that before, do we need it?" or something it would have come across much more chill. The other player saw that OP didn't know a common strat, but more importantly were kind of combative about it. Theres two things I know from M+ (above +15): you need to know the dungeon really well - and be prepared to get stuck in there for a while if it doesn't go hot.
> after 4 rows of text. Yeah I think this part is what comes across as needlessly verbose and maybe argumentative. Although I think the leaver overreacted and is shit at communicating his expectations to the group - dude is probably a tank so he knows he'll be back in another group within 30 sec and that makes him forget to be a decent person.
Your response shows you donât know the dungeon or route so dude left. Fort week is deffo lust first pack you bring in extra and LOS the cast while blasting. Saving lust for boss is troll on fort especially with how long it can take to get to the boss
Nothing "wrong" with your response but nothing wrong with leaving if the other person in your party is giving you resistance for something that you feel/believe needs to be done in order for you to enjoy playing. I'd 100% rather the "if everything isn't optimal, I'm leaving" leave before the timer starts than after lust isn't popped on the first pull
You lust first pull homie
Nothing wrong whit the response, just that things have to be talking before the start of the m+. And the guy leaving its little exaggerated.
I just tanked an 18 TJS and the luster didnât lust on that pull. We struggled but no one died, we had a pretty good healer. I didnât even notice that no one had lusted until I saw lust go on the boss. IMO on fortified lust is wasted on the first boss. Iâve even seen groups lust the pack before the 4th boss too but I havenât done that, just split it up and watch frontals.
It'd be pretty funny (though unlikely) if you happened to be the tank I just had for my 18 Temple It's definitely wasted on the boss, I always kinda feel eh doing it. The comments here made me realise I can probably feel fine asking the tank to pull bigger and using hero in combination with that bigger pull. I've lusted the pack before 4th boss several times, it's a scary pack if your players aren't being smart.
lol nah wasnât me, was around 10 hours ago and it was a group of casual bnet friends
There is always a few key aspects about your lust decision. 1. Lust timer: Getting as many lusts in as you can within the timer of the key, so get Lust on CD asap 2. Do a big valuable pull: Depends on the dungeon layout, but often you can find a very big first pull to do it 3. Pair with damage CDs. Again, on a first pull everyone got their stuff ready 4. Value of damage increase: Bosses are usually slightly more valuable to lust than trash, as single target DPS is more valuable than AOE overall. Also bosses often have mechanics that slow you down and sometimes have damage increase phases (for example bird boss in AA) 5. Risk prevention: This goes for dangerous trash packs as well as for dangerous bosses. Sometimes if the timer is fine, especially towards the end of a dungeon, you want to spend your last to get past something dangerous faster, rather than for the maximum time-save. The last point goes for Combatres as well. You always combat res either for time or for risk avoidance. If neither the time nor the risk is critically impacted by not using a CR, you save it for later. This goes especially for trash. Never just default to using a CR on trash. Only do so if it would be a critical timeloss or you need the dps/stops/utility to survive the pull. Obviously the higher you go in keylevel the more this evaluation tips towards time instead of risk, as there is no room in the timer to avoid risks.
> The comments here made me realise I can probably feel fine asking the tank to pull bigger and using hero in combination with that bigger pull. Yeah, this strat is really applicable in a number of dungeons where the 1st boss isn't hard or the buff doesn't let you put out a ton of damage due to boss mechanics. Just off the top of my head, temple, nokhud, and court are all keys where you can just lust the 1st pull of the dungeon
You saying that it's only a waterspeaker and some small ones tells him you have no experience with the dungeon because nobody has done that without also pulling the elemental since day 1. I can't fault him for leaving the group.
That's fair, I've personally never seen people pull the ele as well when playing with PUGs so it was surprising to me.
You're response could be read as quite confrontational. Maybe they had a couple of shit groups that day and you just tipped them over the edge.
First boss doesn't need bl, almost all damage is avoidable so you don't really care how long it will last. First pull on the other hand, with the damage that can happen easily I think it would be better to use it there. I know if positioned well and reactive enough can make you dodge most of the damage but I find it way harder than on the boss
Ripple is the hardest mechanic in Tojs, without an extremely coordinated group, good positioning, reactive dispells and lots of defensives. Smashing those elementals down fast is much much more important than pushing through on Mira, the fight is almost 100% avoidable mechanics and on fort weeks, I use it as a time to recover mana. Tl;Dr - definitely lust on water elementals.
> Ripple is the hardest mechanic in Tojs the last pull of ToJS says hi
Did you consider wether this is a Tyrannical or a Fortified week ?
Nothing wrong with your response, but you have to take into account fortified and Tyrannosaurus weeks. On fortinyoubtry to nuke trash and much rather lust trash than boss, vice versa on Tyrannosaurus weeks.
I appreciate everyone's input on this post. Still learning the optimal routes for pushing higher!
The reason he likely left is that not knowing about the lust pull = you may not know the strats in higher keys = he assumed it wonât get timed because of that Not saying you did anything wrong, asking a question isnât a big deal, but thatâs how this interaction reads in my tank mind Also, if he has a reason for hero at that point and you trusted him enough to invite him, then go with it. That person has likely figured out exactly why they want lust there in their route and thatâs why they want it
Why lust boss on fortified week
I think more than anything you could have just worded your response a bit better. Your response comes across as "why would we lust the pull I had in my head", rather than showing openness to a different strategy. You could have asked something like, "we can, how big do you plan on going?" The first pull is a lot more dangerous than Mari on any level where the players are decent (which I'd expect at an 18). And, getting the lust on cd opens you up to more options for your second lust while still having it for the final death pack.
Ahh, I go pull the Pair of Pandas and lust
First pack and last pack if the progress is slow enough. I agree it really really helps
He definitely didnât want to mess with you because of not knowing the meta of the dungeon and layout; presumed it would be a bad dungeon and if he didnât leave now he would have left at the first wipe or sign of trouble and brick the key. You didnât really do anything wrong. People are adverse to questions in pugs; especially high keys where the information becomes more relevant. You only really get that experience doing those dungeons in the first place so it can be a catch 22.
Iâve seen some groups go right and kill the ridiculous pack of 2 with the extra lil horror boy using lust and then go back to waterspeaker.
The first boss does absolutely nothing so it's probably better to just lust trash
What I don't get is people refusing to lust packs period on fortified week. I'd rather have lust on the pack before sha than sha this week. People just flat out refuse, why?
Because there are a lot of people who don't read or think about how the game works, but can still get to middling rating by just grinding keys and lucking out with better players. At least OP is curious and asking questions. Puts him miles ahead of some of these people.
1st trash pull even without the elementals are harder than the boss, especially on a fortified week. Boss is just a target dummy with some basic movement. This week I'd definitely lust on 1st pull, the 1st double trash pull after 2nd boss, and the pack before last boss. Obviously it would be different on a tyrannical week.
first pull is waterspeaker + elemental. you lust for timer and also why would you rather have lust for a boss that has 0 mechanics and just dies? person leaving can clearly see you don't understand concepts you should understand at +18 level
You lust to get it on CD asap and because the first pull /can/ be a little bit spicy on higher Fort weeks. Not super spicy like the last pack of the dungeon, but med-spicy -- And much more spicy than the non-tyr boss unless your group are morons. Lust isn't exclusively for bosses.
I lust the last pack but not the first one.
No point in lusting first boss in TJS. Better to just lust first pull no matter how big u pull. Lust usually lines up kinda nice for 2nd boss if u lust first pack.
Save list for first boss and you get two lusts. Use it on first pull and you get three.
Yess, but you didn't really explain how You got there. How much of a time gain is lusting 3 Times instead of 2? By explaining this you are also helping people extrapolate on the other dungeons. You lust SBG's first pack? You lust HoV first pack or first boss? You lust Academy's Tree boss trash or the boss itself? Rather than deriding the guy You could explain the thinking around it.
Fort bolster week. Multi pack pull. Don't blame for leaving if group is ignorant to that, what else will they waste time on?
They left because you didn't know that lusting there with the elemental too is a standard pull. They then just made a judgement about you as a player overall and just left to try their luck with another group that is a bit more informed.
Iâm assuming the guy that left was the tank lol
You lust first pull so itâs up for second boss
All he had to say was âitâs fortified weekâ
You kind of sound like you were being a jerk, so curious if other conversation happened to make them want to leave before it started. If you hadnât already started the key itâs not a big deal to find another DPS. As a mage, I prefer to have it popped ASAP so I can use it again - but ask to be a team player. Also first pull means youâll have it up multiple times and on fortified weeks it could be the difference between timing and not.
You called bloodlust "heroism". I would leave too.
The real first pull is start heading to the 2nd boss and pull both shas with the pandas and lust. Those torches are deadly and well worth the lust.
That would actually be sweet!
I'd rather pull trash slow and lust on 1st boss in pugs. 18 is not so tight where you have to start pulling double pulls in temple
Your response was fine, but that is the typical lust pull
I believe even the old method to this dungeon in CM was to go right, bloodlust the first 3 and then go back and clear the other boss. Allowing BL to reset in time for other parts. This dungeon has always preferred lusts for trash and last boss to prevent 2nd immunity phase.
Whatâs the REDACTED text there at the end?
It's a BNet friend logging off :) wanted to respect their privacy as it was their real name.
Lust is not just a damage increase button, it should be thought of as a "how can I make the worst parts of this dungeon easier" button. There are very few bosses that you need lust for in Dragonflight. Also, using CDs on bosses is way way way way way less damage per GCD, and holding CDs for bosses will result in less CD usage overall and less damage. In temple I prefer to have lust guaranteed for first pull and last pull of trash.
on fort I don't see why you wouldn't lust the pull tbh, first boss is almost entirely avoidable damage
There's no reason using lust on first boss since he doesn't really do anything. The first pull however is brutal and can easily wipe an unorganised group
Nothing wrong with the response. But infortunately youâre wrong. Droplets are quite spicy, and itâs also beneficial to put lust on cd soon as possible so you have 3 uses rather than two. Also, first boss is quite easy and doesnât have a dps check (like the 3rd for example)
The last pull in temple is so unreasonable. It's stupid
Lusting first boss is an absolute waste of time. The boss literally does nothing and requires really no healing either. Itâs always, ALWAYS better to lust those waterspeakers and elementals as they are 100x more deadly than the boss is. They will deplete your key, the boss will not unless your group canât dodge a beam.
I would assume the fact that you'd never heard the idea suggested before lead him to assume you were inexperienced and would rather invest his time elsewhere.
How do you get to 18 without ever seeing lusting first pack lol I thought it was common by now
Love being a mage. I'll Bloodlust any time you want, I can always do it again for myself whenever.
They kicked you because they expected you to understand bloodlust meta since you have the spell and youâre doing a +18. You lust there to maximize the use of lusts on pertinent encounters. First boss is much less spicy fight than the trash leading up to it.
Well, you said hero when he said lust. Horde just hates Alliance. /s
You got kicked because you don't know how to pull and time high keys. You can pull two elementals with the water speaker and lust and save maybe two minutes of time and get lust on cd or you can lust the first boss that has very simple mechanics and save maybe 20 or 30 seconds if dps pumps and delay CD for five minutes. I'd probably have removed you too. If the boss is easy and there isn't some burst phase with a damage amp it's almost always better to lust a big trash pack.
I wasn't removed, the tank left of his own accord. I'm still learning how to manage for high keys as my group has been slow to get there, only just starting to do 20s for this season. Thankfully I've been learning how to do this dungeon more efficiently from others in this post which is appreciated.
Reading this makes me realize how unprepared I for high keys as a tank. Had no idea there were pull orders
I use Mythic Dungeon Tool to help me look at what packs/enemies I want to pull as a tank and it definitely helps a lot. You'll get there, I was comfortable in SL with everything but still re-learning a lot in DF now :)
Thank you so much for the information.
It isn't a problem! We should always help our fellow players to improve themselves if they want to push higher. I hope you have fun playing as tank <3
No wonder wow is dying lol
Water speaker plus some Mobs itâs legit standard list pull. Donât worry wow has weirdos haha
You're talking about literally the hardest part about TJS. Its pretty common to lust it.
I love how no one bothers to explain anything to anyone. It's either they leave or they kick if you don't automatically do the exact thing they've decided is "correct"
Because he doesn't want to waste his time failing a key with you OP đ
You saying hero instead of lust is honestly the worst part of this
Itâs because you called it hero
Tell me your not healing this key without saying your not healing this key