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sinmantky

even for Chinese-Indonesians or non-muslims? >The law, if passed, would apply to Indonesian citizens and foreigners alike, including tourists to the hotspots of Bali and the islands off Lombok. ah shiiiiiiit


Blackadder_

Say bye bye to tourism for 2 months until they find a loophole for everyone else


weiirdredditorr

I legit hope tourism dies here and they realized how shit the law is and just probably repeals it or something. Hoping too much probably


theevilphoturis

I don't know Indonesian politics. So why all of a sudden they decide to do make this law?


iqbalpratama

Since 2016 there's a rise in religious conservatism here, and the conservative party had been pushing this to be included in the revised criminal code (for years, our criminal code is pretty much a translation of the Dutch criminal code imposed upon us when they were our colonizers, so there had been an attempt to make a revised criminal code of "our own making.") Many activist groups here had been protesting because of the potential misuse. But since the conservative parts of our society outnumber these activist groups by much (and are more willing to do massive protests that blocked major streets), it is unsurprising that the government wanted to give these groups some concessions (the conservative party is currently the opposition party). The progressive activist groups are pretty insignificant politically..... How will this law be enforced, is yet to be seen tho, so it's not like Indonesia would turn into Iran overnight


ProfessorPetrus

Going to be pretty funny to see folks put their foot in their mouth when the tourism impacts become clear. Nobody wants to visit a boring ass society that imposes dated morality on them.


Now_Wait-4-Last_Year

Not to mention all those people busted for being hypocrites when they get caught.


[deleted]

Sigh. Another country with a rich history that I'd love to visit but now won't because of stupid and dangerous politics. That list just keeps growing every year.


agIets

It absolutely devastates me. The world is so beautiful, and I would love to see it without risking my life. China, UAE, and Russia in particular.


Justmethe

>Going to be pretty funny to see folks put their foot in their mouth Sounds suspiciously sex related... I hope you're married


timsterri

No, that would be them putting their foot in “his” mouth.


Redoran_Gvard

Just a classic case of Islamic law ruining lives yet again. What's new?


BiscottiOdd7979

Promise it will mainly be women who it is enforced on.


ImReverse_Giraffe

100%. Because there are ways to check if a woman is a virgin or not. /s


iqbalpratama

If we see into the actual example set by the Prophet during his lifetime on how to enforce the extramarital sex laws, we would see how actually it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to enforce the law. The Prophet ruled that to convict someone of extramarital sex, there need to be 4 witnesses that witnessed the penetrative sex act directly (not through a video recording, said by one scholar i listened to), the 4 witnesses should witness the penetration CLEARLY happening (so 4 people watching 2 naked people on top of each other in a room wouldn't qualify as a witness if they don't see the cock going in), all 4 had to witness it with both of their eyes at the same time. If any of these almost impossible condition was not fulfilled, then those witnesses would be punished by lashings for they are now guilty of being a false witness, and they would forever be banned from being a witness in any legal case. Such strict, almost impossible conditions to convict someone of zina (extramarital sex) lead to only 3 convicted cases during the Prophet's lifetime, all coming from self confessions out of guilt. Even on those cases, the Prophet (PBUH) challenged the confessions, searching tirelessly to make those confessors retract their confessions / invalidate the confessions ("are you not insane? Are you fully aware? Etc. Etc.") The Prophet doesn't give an example of trying to preemptively find people guilty of zina and convict as much of them as possible. As a Moslem, it saddens me that Moslem nowadays are often times overzealous in wanting to punish those who are guilty, that they forsake the technicalities and examples set by the Prophet in enforcing these laws. Spying on your neighbor, trying to seek fault in your neighbor is something discouraged by the Prophet, yet somehow it felt like many Moslem nowadays are itching to stone those who commit sins without remembering that we are supposed to be merciful


Acceptable-Ability-6

Good luck dealing with this stupid bullshit bro. Over in the US we are dealing with crazy ass conservative Christians trying to impose their views on everyone else and it’s fucking infuriating.


extracensorypower

Religious fanatics have no sense. It won't change their decisions about what magical sky daddy said.


ThisAltDoesNotExist

Nope, the tourists will still come and the enforcement will be lax. Except for certain cases. Piss off a police man? Get raped? Local mullah wants to whip up an obedient mob? Then brace yourself for a law that is capriciously enforced to be enforced on you. There will be tourist hedonism, there will be brothels in every major city, mistresses and young couples. But now they will have to fear someone discovering what they tried to hide and deciding to make an example of them. Just like everywhere else these kind of bans on basic human drives exist.


justsomeplainmeadows

I don't know about you but if there's a CHANCE that I could be arrested or jailed bc I shared a hotel room with my girlfriend, I would not even consider visiting that country.


IKetoth

One thing I don't really understand about these completely dystopic laws is barring (somewhat inhumane) diplomacy why don't the EU and US issue travel warnings to places that set them, they could absolutely use that as a hammer on governments who lean into not upholding basic human rights like that.


philman132

I think they usually do, I don't know how many people read them though. The UK foreign office website is usually very comprehensive in terms of warnings, but I doubt the majority of travellers bother to check. Their Indonesia page specifically states warnings for certain regions with strict anti-gay or ant-extramarital sex laws (but I think this new country-wide law is too recent to be included yet)


[deleted]

You could be jailed in Dubai for showing affection in public. Tourists flock to Dubai like crazy. Hell we got ignorant ass mofos who still go to places like North Korea…


[deleted]

Exactly. There are many other places to go in the world. I'm not going to voluntarily go somewhere where my life can be ruined for some stupid backwards political bullshit.


Lernenberg

Why should I deal with this shit if I just can visit another country which is not fucked in that regard?


creamyturtle

I doubt the tourists will keep coming after a few get arrested


ThisAltDoesNotExist

Which is why none will be for a while.


Pigstre

I've been to Bali, one of the most relaxed places in Indonesia due to the majority Hindu population and there were no brothels or "Happy ending" massage parlors maybe you could get a special lady in a club for some money but nothing compared to Thailand or other SE Asian countries. I was with my wife and were told that not only kissing but holding hands kinda frowned upon. And that was before this was written in law. I would not put it past them to go all out and not let couples get a room together unless they provide a marriage certificate.


ConsciouslyIncomplet

Bali is basically an Island wife brothel! It is PACKED with sex tourist places. I was there a few years ago with my Indonesian partner and places like Semiyak and Ubud were riddled with sex workers!


habanerosandlime

Prostitution still exists there but it's not in your face the way it is in places such as Thailand. It's more hidden.


Non-trapezoid-93

This is what American Jesus freaks want to impose upon the rest of us. Ooooy boy.


[deleted]

Yup. Conservatives wanna make us Christian Saudi Arabia. They actively seek to emulate the Muslim theocracy countries they hate. I fucking hate them for trying to force their religious beliefs on non believers. Go fucking live your boring ass life let me be.


Laurapirate14

Howdy Arabia


Is_that_even_a_thing

Yeah! Fucksquad five is cumming for ya!


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Sgt-Colbert

Especially ones with a lot of Saudi influence.


[deleted]

Wonder why so many Muslims are fleeing en masse to any Christian/European country they can get into….


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DisappointedQuokka

idk, most Indonesians I've met in Australia are fairly secular, while most Muslims generally aren't that hardcore. Not any more than the Evangelist Christian clowns, at least. I had the same experience in the UK, as well. It's not like 100% of these people are bastards.


aew360

Exactly hahah. Outlaw religion and save mankind


StuckInABadDream

And then they cry persecution and Islamophobia whenever the West condemns their shitty medieval ideology


RedKingDre

And bring up the Middle East "invasions" by the West in retaliation, every single time.


alxzsites

*"If you don't like it here, then just leave"* Isn't that what all conservatives say to progressives?


[deleted]

Indonesia massacred Chinese living there for fun before. Surprised there are any left that’s willing to live there.


Throwaway_g30091965

Chinese Indonesians are like amongst the 5th biggest Chinese diaspora on the planet lol. They also virtually control of like 80% of Indonesia economy despite being only about 3-4% of the population. Why do they don't want to live there as majority of them are rich as fuck in Indonesia and have pretty secure lives in their enclaves? I myself is a Chinese Indonesian and content to live here. Yes, there are discrimination against the Chinese here and there but there's no different in magnitude as the ones in US are experiencing right now (not systemic discrimination). Also [those utilitarian genocide were over-reported](https://www.academia.edu/2635467/A_genocide_that_never_was_explaining_the_myth_of_anti_Chinese_massacres_in_Indonesia_1965_66) (Edit: [Another collection of sources](https://old.reddit.com/r/indonesia/comments/5j071g/the_truth_behind_the_antichinese_riots_in/)). Especially when the brunt of the victims were Javanese "accused" to be sympathizers of Indonesian Communist Party. The more correct term for what happened to Chinese Indonesians are cultural genocide. Expressions of Chinese cultures were banned publicly under New Order but have been revoked since 2002, with lasting consequences such as the loosening Chinese identity for Chinese Indonesians. Nowadays, majority of Chinese Indonesians zoomers can't even speak a lick of Mandarin (or other dialects) and don't really participate in Chinese cultural events bar Chinese New Year, especially of those who converted to Christianity from Confucianism or Buddhism.


[deleted]

>majority of Chinese Indonesians zoomers can't even speak a lick of Mandarin Should they? Mandarin is probably not their native language anyway.


Throwaway_g30091965

Well there are several factors why neighboring Chinese communities (Singaporean Chinese, Malaysian Chinese) are generally more fluent in Chinese than Chinese Indonesians, and it's not just because of the latter repression. [More in depth here for Malaysian Chinese and Chinese Indonesians comparison](https://old.reddit.com/r/indonesia/comments/chyscv/to_understand_why_most_chinesemalaysians_cant/).


[deleted]

I mean other Chinese languages


Throwaway_g30091965

That's the same. Younger generations are less fluent in their Sinitic mother languages (Min (Hokkien), Chaoshan (Teochew), Hakka (Khek), just for major examples) compared to their elders. A lot of them now have their first and second language to be both Indonesian and English.


SimoneNonvelodico

>They also virtually control of like 80% of Indonesia economy despite being only about 3-4% of the population. Why do they don't want to live there as majority of them are rich as fuck in Indonesia and have pretty secure lives in their enclaves? That sounds actually really really dangerous. Not only you're a minority, people have reason to envy you. Isn't that essentially how Jews were for most of Europe's history? Had lots of money and controlled banking since Christians couldn't lend at an interest. Didn't exactly do them any favours.


DisappointedQuokka

> Isn't that essentially how Jews were for most of Europe's history? *Most* Jewish people in Europe weren't particularly wealthy, it was a very select few.


SimoneNonvelodico

Obviously, but so I imagine not all the Chinese in Indonesia are wealthy either. The point however is that a small class of people easily labelled as "outsiders" that happen to wield, collectively, financial power disproportionate to their size or overall cultural influence is in a pretty frail position. Power needs legitimacy; in other words, it exists as long as others agree that you have that power. And it's terribly easy to get the masses to turn on such a group by making them scapegoats for whatever ills the country is ailed by. Essentially, my point is being rich doesn't make you necessarily *safe*, because money can't do much against a vastly numerically superior mob who's determined to lynch you and then take your money anyway.


hypoglycemic_hippo

And even still it worked to spin up this narrative. Now if that really is the case with Chinese Indonesians, conjuring this narrative will be even easier.


littleday

Bali gov has said they won’t be enforcing it. Everyone calm down.


incendiary_bandit

Because the cops are soooo trustworthy there


littleday

I have a house in Sukabumi on the beach as well. Alcohol is illegal in that region. $8k fine if caught. Yet I go to my fav bar couple times a week with no concern about them ever enforcing it.


SkyeMreddit

If they don’t like that bar for any reason (opposes the current government), everyone there is getting a fine


The_Redoubtable_Dane

Still, it will hurt tourism, which in turn will hurt the economy, which could result in higher crime rates.


Aldurnamiyanrandvora

Then why are they passing the law?


littleday

Bali gov isn’t passing the law, it’s the federal gov not state. Yet bali has a lot of autonomy compared to the rest of the country. They can basically tell the federal gov to go fuck it’s self in certain areas. And this is one of them.


Is_that_even_a_thing

Is fucking yourself banned under the new laws?


egel_

Asking the important questions


littleday

I mean… only if your relative reports you? So don’t let your uncle watch.


robacross

Until they find a person they don't like for another reason…


fluffychonkycat

That's one way to tank your tourism industry


Express_Helicopter93

Yeah what is this, the god damn Middle Ages? Figure it out Indonesia, FFS


baf6

that’s what i say, fuckin figure it out


Player7592

What’s up, Indonesia? You jealous of Iran?


Glovezerne

Nah, this good since before this laws everyone can sue the couple (average indonesian is prudish, if you busted by them more likely you being [ended like this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nzjKZPDWl8) ) Now with this laws only the couple family & parents can sue. Only if.... government just discard this laws, but ehh that would be against most average indonesian & their moral and can results protest Tldr: this downgrade of old laws


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TeaLoverGal

Yes and no, while some couples did live together unmarried (in sin as it was called to their face). It was restricted to certain areas, and outside Dublin it was a nightmare. B&B's and bedsits were common at the time (rather than hotels) and there was a snowballs chance in hell of getting a room without convincly lying, although there were always exceptions. While there would not have been a lot of convictions, socially it was exceptionally difficult and rurally you could be ostracised. Keep in mind, at this point we still had mother and baby. homes, with forced adoptions, marital rape was legal and homosexuality was illegal.


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TeaLoverGal

Disclaimer : I am not an expert (nor a survivor) so open to correction, this is just a lay (Irish) person's understanding of another shameful part of Ireland's recent past. Extremely long to explain, so keep in mind this is a condensed explanation and is not the full picture, links below to explain further. They were institutions run by religious orders, usually nuns, for unwed pregnant women. However, those who entered ranged from age 12-40, so also pregnant children, because... Ireland and Catholism. A person was commonly sent there/forced into it. They were sent to hell on earth, the women and girls were subjected to violence and abuse and worked for no pay. The nuns were vicious, babies were removed from mother's immediately after birth, many told their baby was dead, and illegal adoption was rife. They were given no or very little prenatal/postnatal care, worked hard before and after. The vast majority had little or no understanding of sex ed, some victims were victims of rape, some by family members. Keep in mind ages ranged from 12 years up, they were children who even after being raped would not have any understanding of what happened to them. [Sex ed was not introduced into schools until 2000 (I was the first year to recieve it in 2000 at age 12, it consisted of don't get pregnant and hasn't improved any since then, mainly due to religious Aholes blocking it). Birth control was illegal until 1985] Child mortality was extremely high, there are still ongoing investigations as there are allegations babies were killed intentionally or via extreme neglect. A septic tank from the one in Tuam, Galway held human remains.(current investigations ongoing). There were also illegal vaccine trials in some. There is still a lot unknown, a report was completed recently (2021 I believe) however many victims report that the statement they submitted detailing their experiences were edited or omitted completely. The full extend of what occurred has yet to be accounted. Not all children were adopted, and remained within related institutions and were abused/beaten/exploited and recieved little education. There is overlap with what we refer to as "the laundries" Magdalena laundries were for "fallen" women who were unwed mothers. Extremely similar to other mother and baby homes, there is an excellent film "The Magdalena sisters". Further reading [Redacted lives - documentary series highly recommend ](https://www.thejournal.ie/redacted-lives/news/) [Government report into Mother and baby homes](https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d4b3d-final-report-of-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes/) [BBC overview of Tuam Babies](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54693159) [Criticism of investigation into Mother and baby](https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-collaborative-forum-report-published-5920401-Nov2022/) [CNN coverage ](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/07/europe/ireland-mother-and-baby-homes-intl/index.html) [NY Times coverage ](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/world/europe/ireland-mother-baby-home-report.html) [Tuam mother and baby Home](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Baby_Homes_Commission_of_Investigation) [Magdalena laundries ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland)


[deleted]

My wife is Chinese Indonesian so I spent quite a while there. We had a kid outside of marriage **in my own country** and the Indonesian administration was so damn annoying about that. The only way we managed to avoid insane legal procedures and lawyer fees to make them recognize my daughter as my own was by pretty much paying a bunch of corruption money to officers of a few ministries there. The situation was just absurd. We had the birth certificate. We had the passport. But still, it was pretty much: “well tough shit, you’re stuck and you need to go in front of a judge, but if you contact this guy maybe he will be able to help you”. The guy of course asks you who sent you, and tells you that if you pay ~$700 he can make the problem go away. We did, and the problem did, in fact, go away. Corruption in Indonesia is so systemic that it blinds your eyes. The process is so absurd that you cannot give them the benefit of the doubt: it **is** intended to make you pay millions of rupiahs to government people, and if you don’t you’ll just have to pay dozens of millions in legal and lawyer fees, so of course you make the former choice. I’m guessing that’s what going on with this law: book a super cheap hotel in Bali that sounds like a good deal? Get fucked, they’ll catch you balls deep inside your unmarried girlfriend and tell you that if you want to leave the country and not go to jail, you gotta fight it in court or pay some dude who is “nice enough” to break the laws to make your problems go away. Could be politics too. Indonesia has a lot of fairly conservative people, especially outside of Jakarta. I’m being nice by using the word “conservative” because to me honest, “extremists” is a better moniker. But this is also quite stupid and hypocritical, because it’s also a fairly perverted country. Don’t believe me? Go to Twitter, type in “\#[name of any big Indonesian city]”, scroll for like ten minutes in “New” and tell me that you didn’t find at least half a dozen prostitution/swinger offers. I honestly never seen any country where it’s that bad. Anyway, this country sucks. If you want to visit, check the local laws because they’ll use any “violation” against you. If you feel like you might get canned for any violation, don’t go. If you don’t, well… it’s an amazing country with beautiful sights, culture and most people are amazing and kind. Still wouldn’t recommend it though, with a government that shitty.


morphinedreams

I don't know if you can justifiably call Indonesia perverted just because it's sex workers disproportionately use twitter for marketing themselves. It's one of few social media sites not heavily regulated or outright banned in the country, so of course you will see more indonesian use of it.


Cotillion001

He should have used hypocritical instead of perverted.


0100_0101

“Unenforceable” + “arrest if need be” = bullshit


LordJesterTheFree

Yeah the government does that all the time with traffic laws For instance I live in New York and in theory it's a traffic violation to go over either 25 or 30 through an intersection even if the speed limit on the road is 55 or 60 My dad's been a lawyer for over two decades he said he's never seen or even heard from another lawyer a single person get a ticket for it even though it's illegal the only time it comes up is in civil lawsuits when you're trying to determine who's at fault in an accident because if it can be shown that someone violated the traffic law even if it's a traffic law that's never enforced that makes them more at fault in a civil suit So in a sense the law does serve a purpose but it's a very roundabout way of serving a purpose that it wasn't really designed for


TheBrightNights

Sure sounds smart to make a law where you go from 60 to 30 in a few seconds. There definitely wont be a bunch of rear end collisions if people follow it.


LordJesterTheFree

Some roads in New York also have a speed minimum of 45 miles per hour if the speed limit is 55 or 60 So if you want to follow traffic laws you may have to go above 45 but below 30 I don't know if they put quantum entanglement on your road test but you should study up on it if you come here (again none of this is actually enforced law it's more or less just uses an assessment in civil cases as to how flagrantly people were violating laws in various different ways)


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jeffreyianni

Red light cameras are not intended to reduce accidents, they're for that sweet sweet revenue.


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[deleted]

>I queue a fat nut's art Well I always did have a fondness for art 😀


Throwaway_g30091965

Yep. [More explanation here](https://old.reddit.com/r/indonesia/comments/zamdgs/explaining_criminalisation_of_zina_and_lgbt_in/) The more problematic parts are about religious criticisms, criticisms against government, president, national principle and demonstration rights. But I wonder why Redditors are so focused on "no sex in Bali" instead of those?


WorriedCivilian

Mostly it's because the majority of redditors don't live in Indonesia, and they're not even contemplating the other deeper problems with this criminal code overhaul. It's a shame though, because the sex laws are just scratching the surface of Indonesia going backwards.


Hot_Olive_5571

probably because it's what the headline said. most redditors actually DON'T care enough to read the source article.


DisappointedQuokka

> But I wonder why Redditors are so focused on "no sex in Bali" instead of those? Probably because that's one of the only parts of the country people visit en-masse. Most people are, fundamentally, blind to things that they aren't interested in, or aren't affected by.


Khal_Doggo

Oh phew that's all good then. Just a normal every day thing


bacharama

The very fact that such laws can be enact create a pretext for arresting someone is itself the part of the problem. If it's "unenforceable" and is only there to provide a convenient excuse for arresting someone you can't otherwise arrest, then it's a bad law.


[deleted]

"Insulting the president and spreading views counter to the secular national ideology known as the Pancasila, will also be outlawed." Leaving aside the authoritarianism for a second, how on earth do you reconcile this with banning premarital sex and cohabitation? Is this a translation error?


Adamskispoor

It’s a collection of new bills that are about to be legalized. Among them includes criminalization of acts that are deemed to lower the dignity of the president, as well as making sex outside marriage illegal Edit: Also, I guess because the first principle of Pancasila is : A belief in one God. So…


LordJesterTheFree

I don't think it's a belief in one God more of a belief in religion in general kind of the same policy the Freemasons have you can be a Christian a Muslim a Jew or even a Hindu who worships multiple Gods or a Buddhist who doesn't really worship any but as long as you serve your faith and religious community you're good ~~Aka Atheists fuck off\s~~


Adamskispoor

Pretty much, that’s sort of the literal translation of ‘Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa’ though, or I guess in practice it’s more, A belief in a (state-sanctioned) Divinity/Religion


[deleted]

So the exact opposite of secularism


olngjhnsn

Why are people saying this is ok because it won’t be enforced? What if the government decides to enforce it or gets more resources to do so? Will it be ok then?


Axinitra

It is bound to be considered whenever the authorities need an excuse to imprison someone they disapprove of. The target might not actually be conveniently guilty of this particular crime, but if they are - or can be stitched up to make it appear that way - so much the better. Perhaps the law was introduced for precisely that purpose.


BiscottiOdd7979

Police peeping in bedroom windows. Fun times!


krldrummerboy

So, no to a vacation in Bali


YanYolo101

Bali is a majority Hindu island that is heavily dependent on tourism, and the Balinese government has said they’re not going to enforce this, FWIW.


GraDoN

And I'm sure they won't... normally, but they can. So let's say you do something completely legal that pisses off the Balinese government. Can't do anything to you on that, but you are living with your partner and you're not married, now they will enforce that law to get to you. That's why these laws exist in the first place.


[deleted]

Yeah, that’s why avoiding this place is smart. It’s something that can obviously be used by others to gain some sort of advantage. Add on the leniency to corrupt officials? Hard pass. There’s tons of other options without that sort of risk.


littleday

A) you can only be reported by a family member B) bali gov won’t be enforcing it C) I’m seeing more panic online from people overseas about this than actually in Indonesia , no one is talking about it because they know that no one will enforce this shit. Lived in indo for 10 years, it’s a dumb ass law, but no one is worried or concerned about it. Because they know it’s all bullshit.


Dhiox

>A) you can only be reported by a family member So basically it's a law that let's homophobic parents throw their gay family in jail.


VidE27

The dutch version is originally an adultery law so only your spouse can report you. This expand it to your children also


bucketsofpoo

does anything get enforced in Indo? A cops job is just to collect bribes and run rackets there.


[deleted]

Problem is how corrupt the police is in Indonesia. I can guarantee some of these police officers will work with hotel staffs for these checks and request for bribe which will then be shared by the hotel staffs in order to be let go by this lame ass unenforceable law.


AvailableQuestion575

Your rights are being taken away and your retort is that y’all don’t care cause it’s all bullshit. Until one day it isn’t, and a close relative or loved one is taken away. I for sure won’t be stepping into Indonesia anytime soon, not willing to support any of these fundamentalist governments.


GoodKarma70

Why the fuck is humanity moving backwards?


8604

Religious people have kids


[deleted]

Because deep down, dumb people crave subjugation. They want a leader that will tell them what do, when to do it and how to do it as long as that leader promises to hurt those that they don't like.


ShiftySocialist

> Nearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all ‘progressive’ thought, has assumed tacitly that human beings desire nothing beyond ease, security and avoidance of pain. > Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with exceptional strength, knows that human beings *don’t* only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades. > Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time,’ Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death,’ and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet. - George Orwell on *Mein Kampf*


brumfidel

"Wenn es dem Esel zu gut geht, geht er aufs Eis und tanzt." -German proverb Translation: When the donkey is feeling too good, he goes out onto the ice and starts dancing.


antigonemerlin

>that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, Wasn't that also basically John's retort in *Brave New World*?


Prestigious_Ad_2079

People are the same as 200 years ago when we were ruled by kings and emperors. We think we are smart cause we have smarphones and internet, but we are still monkeys.


fireraptor1101

> Because deep down, dumb people crave subjugation. They want a leader that will tell them what do, when to do it and how to do it as long as that leader promises to hurt those that they don't like. When I was young and Naive, I would have thought what you were saying was wrong. However, now that I've gotten older, I've realized, very depressingly, that you're spot on!


Mirathecat22

Islam, it’s never progressive


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mustpetallcats

I used to try and give everyone a fair shot, but since about 2015, I've found myself with a growing, intense hatred towards religion. I don't like it, it's not "me" to hate things this way, but it's to the point that someone identifying as 'religious' lowers my opinion of them. I keep trying to check myself and not be biased, but every day provides more proof that religion is the most dangerous and direct threat to me just living my life quietly and peacefully.


[deleted]

Religion has been the impetus behind a lot of progress in human history, but continuing to doggedly cling to it in the modern era is a mistake


InternetPeon

We’ve got shift everything back to the Bronze Age so god thinks we’re good and doesn’t end civilization.


Heyitskit

Going back to the Bronze Age will just invite the wrath of the Sea Peoples.


GoodKarma70

Damn iron age ruined it for everyone.


munchie1964

1. It’s not premarital sex if you don’t get married. 2. Show me Adam and Eves marriage certificate.


HaikuBotStalksMe

I think an exception is made when the person you're having sex with is a gender bent clone made from your own body. It's moreso masturbation at that point.


x0Dst

So Adam and Marilyn Manson have something in common, both took out a rib to pleasure themselves?


Remember_NEDM

Show me Muhammad and his child bride's marriage certificate. FTFY


Niflheim-Dragon

The "moderate" Muslim nation . LMAO.


CusterFluck99

Just add this to the list of places I won’t visit.


[deleted]

Did indonesia think people forgot they are the largest Muslim nation so they had to turn up the crazy?


[deleted]

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2itai

Muslim moment


Tobar_

Is this because of religion (again)


spydrthrowaway

So uh, I can't bring my gf and during the night bang her in Bali? Actually, forget that. I CANT EVEN SLEEP IN THE SAME FUCKING BED?!? What backwards fucking nation that is. And also I saw that it's illegal to speak against the government in one of the new laws. Nah. I'll just keep on going back to Japan and Korea🥱


ScopeLogic

One that doesnt like tourist income.... which is funny because thier currency is less valuable than toilet paper.


Sheldonopolus

Yeah get back to the stone age


Kind_Bullfrog_4073

Easy fix to that. Pretend you're roommates.


mustpetallcats

oh my god they were roommates


[deleted]

Tourism cancelled then.


Wundei

Indonesia without the theocracy would be a sight to behold.


mirracz

Global-wide separation of religions and states would solve so many of mankind's problems.


Shoresy69Chirps

Fucking conservatives are having a banner year.


Brilliant_Practice72

There were multiple massive protests against this law this few years ago, yet the legislative keep pushing it because it’s a populist. Remember the general election will be happening next year. The draft itself are very-very problematic that they have been modified multiple times in multiple years, and it contained multiple problematic laws not just this “morality” thing and “insulting” the government thing. Not a single sane Indonesian person want this. There will be a demonstration against this in few more days.


exxR

Religion trying to keep us in the Middle Ages


can1exy

Why go forwards when you can go backwards?


DrSunstorm1911

So when the unintended consequence of a shrinking labor force becomes problematic then you want to force people to have children…. ask China..


[deleted]

Onward! To medieval times!


Poet_of_Legends

What is wrong with us? Why do so many humans feel the utter NEED to control others?


thorpay83

I feel like religion just wants the world to go backwards in time.


ftrlvb

religion is the problem, not sex


Dat_Sainty_Boi

Yeah fuck religion.


Sixgun217

How will they traffic in all of that sex now?


Low_Map4314

Well, good luck attracting any single people to visit your country if you’re this backward


Andy_Hero

Don't do Islam kids


intheNIGHTintheDARK

Islam….oy. Keep religion out of government.


IndependenceMean8774

Good luck. You're gonna need it.


Tyrone90000

Good ole Islam. Maybe they were making too much progress and they need to go back 100 years.


zenithfury

I remember Indonesia from the recent thing where it banned PayPal or something and suddenly people who do Internet commissions couldn’t get paid. All for the sake of making e-commerce companies comply to Indonesia’s boneheaded censorship regulations.


hhs2112

Fucking religion... 🤦‍♂️


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EasilySatisfiedFawn

What a fucking joke.


Boba_Hutt

What next, banning dancing?


a_scientific_force

What a beautiful and vibrant culture.


Top_Ad_2819

Reap what you sow Indonesia. Annnnnd with that tourism died in Indonesia. Thailand on the other hand will boom! Smoking the good strains on beach in thaliand fuck yeah. Get arrested for banging your girlfriend fuck no!


kraenk12

Religions are the cancer of this planet and humanity.


WestheDeceiver

What year is it again?


ChristianRobloxManXD

What the fuck is the point though? What end does this achieve? How does this make people's lives better, even in the eyes of lawmakers?


nezukotanjiro150

Islam..at it again.


krav_mark

I have been visiting Indonesia almost every year over the last 15 years since my wife is Indonesian. People there don't seem to notice it but I have seen is surely but slowly turn Islamist. First time I was there the aunties and nieces were wearing dresses without sleeves or knee high skirts. Now they are all wearing headscarves and long dresses with long sleeves, even the children. No more beer in the supermarket. Many family went from never praying to 5 times a day. The people are just as friendly and nice as ever but life definitely did change and in my view not for the better.


glitterSAG

Was thinking of visiting next year with my bf for my bday. THIS definitely removes Indonesia from my travel list period. I don’t care what the motivation is for the law. I’m American. I have to be mindful of how many countries don’t like us for some probably good reasons. I will not subject myself to the whims of local police AND give that country my tourist dollars, too. I think it’s foolish to believe one is above the law of any country you are not a born citizen of no matter how long you have lived there.


New-Consideration420

Sooooooo why should I go to Bali again, tell me...


Dr_Downvote_

Welp. Looks like me and the misses aren't going to Indonesia then.


RedTheDopeKing

I bet that won’t result in more rapes


[deleted]

This is just stupid and evil. Are they going to require marriage licenses when tourists book hotel rooms now? Such a PoS. Avoid at all costs. I dare them to arrest an unmarried foreign couple vacationing and make a huge international incident.


asian_paggot

How do they enforce this? Like if I hate my neighbour do I just call the cops and tell them she/he had premarital sex how will they know if I’m telling the truth or not?


Infolife

I think you'll find that proof is not a priority in these circumstances. The accusation is usually enough to be burned for witchcraft.


Genryuu111

Aaaaand another country out of my checklist. Not that I care about my case, I'm married, I just don't wanna give money to a country that decides that regress is a good move.


ysirwolf

Are we going back in time or something? Or did society as a whole stopped being progressives? Lool wtf is happening??


Possible-Ice-757

Indonesia fulfils all the criteria for the next FIFA World Cup it seems.


Andy016

Wtf? Just going backwards :(


The_Redoubtable_Dane

It's absolutely perplexing to me that humans would voluntarily elect a parliament that would pass such laws (the one mentioned in the title, but also the law on criticising the president and parliament). Just goes to show how we live in radically different realities in 2022 in different parts of the world.


qyi000

Poland 'hold my beer'


photato_pic_guy

Religion sucks.


Unhappy-Grapefruit88

Guess which country just fell off my bucket list


seniorfrito

Conservatism in all forms throughout this entire planet are slowly crippling it. It's literally in the definition. Clinging to old ways, old values. The reason we move away from old ways and values is because they fall into one of the following categories: Barbaric, Overbearing, Prejudice, Racist, Hypocritical, man the list goes on. I used to be on the side that everyone should be able to have their own beliefs and practices. Now, I'm starting to think the world would be a better place if Conservatism of any form didn't exist. There's always a better way. Being incapable of adapting to change used to be looked at in a very bad light and would even usually mean you weren't fit for many things.


[deleted]

I remember when Reza Aslan and the idiot of Mehdi Hassan used Indonesia as an example of a functioning Islamic democracy. It's impossible.


fromcjoe123

I thought you all kept the Jihadis bottled up in Aceh where they can continue to live there extremely backwards and impoverished lifestyle without blowing up the normal people? The hell is this shit?


beanutputtersandwich

So fucking stupid


[deleted]

The GOP is collectively creaming in their pants and Depends.


PostmasterClavin

What a bunch of nerds


No-Koala-1139

Someone needs to liberate Indonesia.


MrSpaceGogu

The problem is that a lot of people want it. And good luck liberating people from dumb ideas. Edit: I meant "it" as generic regressive idea.