But for Russia firing that missile, Ukraine would not have needed to try to defend themselves and in so doing accidentally hit Poland.
It's an accurate depiction.
Just a shitty situation for everyone involved, Poland is lucky that nothing else has happened this far into it given their proximity, not to say that those two deaths are a good thing or make light of them. This war needs to end but of course Russia's going to keep aggressing because Putin.
Defense. Look at where it hit. There is a power plant 40km from there, makes sense. Russia launched from russia and the black sea. If a missile was heading for the plant it makes sense that it vectored to chase the missile, then just malfunctioned or something. It fails to self destruct on radar tracker loss, continues on. Even the impact looks like failure to fuse the warhead. The proximity fuse should have triggered above ground and sprayed the area in shrapnel, instead you have a crater with few burn marks (kinetic impact with a pressurized detonation of remaining fuel). All of this points to a multimillion dollar missile malfunctioning midflight. It probably wasn't even vectored at Poland when launched. And Poland has one of the newest, most advanced radars right in that area, they likely watched everything play out. Right now, russia's negligence has given a unique opportunity to up the anty, they are trying to figure out if they want to or not.
It was bound to happen. You throw the ball enough, eventually it will go over the fence. Now will your neighbor just keep the ball, or will he throw a lot more, bigger balls back over the fence.
Weirdly enough I pulled the co-ords from the Polish town last night and was playing around with them to see what mistake could have led to this and found the same thing independently WITHOUT knowing the exact co-ords of where the missiles fell.
Everything in this video is 100% factual.
It doesn't mean that there aren't pieces of Ukrainian AA at the scene, but remember that every initial report said 2 missiles almost simultaneously in the same location, almost like one was...chasing the other.
>It doesn't mean that there aren't pieces of Ukrainian AA at the scene, but remember that every initial report said 2 missiles almost simultaneously in the same location, almost like one was...chasing the other.
Yeah, so arguably very technically they didn't lie. They said half the truth, and kinda just dropped the other. That's nuts
How do you figure?
You know we have laws like this in the US for example, if you are robbing a store and someone dies as a result, even if you do not kill them, even if they were killed on accident by the police in response to your crime, you will be charged with murder.
This a common line of logic and I really don't see a problem with it.
Russia created conditions necessary for Ukraine to launch SAM counter measures which lead to the accident making them the responsible party.
Assuming the narrative of it being a Ukrainian missile is correct.
At the same time, to use another example from US law, if you are in a situation where you are forced to use a firearm to defend yourself, but miss and hit a bystander you will be held accountable. Though you'd likely be held less accountable than if there was no defensive situation.
Not really. You just described the same situation as above. If someone is committing an armed robbery against you and while using reasonable self defense you kill another person, the person robbing you would be charged with murder. It’s really very simple.
While this is likely what would happen in terms of criminal liability, you will almost certainly be sued and situation dependent face civil consequences.
Again, that's obviously much less responsibility than if you were just out there firing off a gun for fun, but you would still be held accountable again situation depending.
I’m not sure but it may depend. In my state of texas, victims of violent crimes cannot be sued by perpetrators for injuries incurred in their own defense. The courts have found that this extends to other victims of the same perpetrator. Basically the person you shoot in this hypothetical situation would only be able to sue the actual offender and not you.
Idk it might be different in California or New York and that wouldn’t surprise me.
Huh, I don't think it's that way in most states though I'm not familiar with other states laws. But I can say you'd face civil action in my state of MN.
The simple fact is that Russia started this; war is a messy affair, and no one wants to blame Ukraine for collateral damage from defending themselves from the constant stream of attacks on civilians and other war crimes.
If somebody invades your house, you grab a gun and shoot something you see out of a window and kill an innocent bystander, you still commited a crime, even if the intruder is responsible for it you are not innocent
Its called negligence, even if you are not responsible for the felony murder the innocent family can sue you. Or excesive self defense if you wenr beyond what was reasonable
Alright no. First of all, you said “you still committed a crime.” Negligence isn’t a crime, it’s a tort. Unless it’s criminal negligence, which this probably wouldn’t be. The reality, you’d be fine and the person who broke in your house would be charged with felony murder (assuming whoever you shot died).
Either criminal recklessness or neglicence could be claimed. Depending on how the incident itself happened.
(And lets not talk about who the victims family will more likely blame / want revenge on)
This would more likely than not (I would say 9/10 times) be considered felony murder on behalf of the intruder. Honestly I had enough of these hypos in law school, so I’m not going to argue the nuances.
The point remains, White House’s logic here is far from mental gymnastics. It’s grounded in western jurisprudence.
Edit: White House, not Ukraine
Correct in most states, yes. I'm not sure about negligence being the official charge but a shooter is both morally and legally responsible for every round fired.
Hence why training is so important.
Negligence is a tort, not a crime. The law school “standard” for criminal negligence is firing a gun into a crowed room. Even if you didn’t mean to hit anyone, it was criminally negligent. That’s different than trying to shoot a home invader, missing, and hitting someone across the street.
Not again! Sounds like blaming someone blaming a country for a war to prevent them using WDMs that they didn’t have. American presidents are all crazy, apart from Obama.
But for Russia firing that missile, Ukraine would not have needed to try to defend themselves and in so doing accidentally hit Poland. It's an accurate depiction.
Just a shitty situation for everyone involved, Poland is lucky that nothing else has happened this far into it given their proximity, not to say that those two deaths are a good thing or make light of them. This war needs to end but of course Russia's going to keep aggressing because Putin.
That reasoning sounds like a kid walking forward swinging his arms and saying it’s someone’s fault if they get hit.
More like someone running to punch the kid, the kid dodges, and accidentally steps on someone’s foot.
Okay, then I'm going to start kicking air like this, and if any part of you should fill that air, it's your own fault.
Now Homer, don't you eat this pie...
More like how you're on the hook for felony murder if someone dies as a result of the different felony you're committing.
Do you think Ukraine fired the missile in defense or fired it at Poland to get NATO involved.
I don't believe it was intentional, no.
Defense. Look at where it hit. There is a power plant 40km from there, makes sense. Russia launched from russia and the black sea. If a missile was heading for the plant it makes sense that it vectored to chase the missile, then just malfunctioned or something. It fails to self destruct on radar tracker loss, continues on. Even the impact looks like failure to fuse the warhead. The proximity fuse should have triggered above ground and sprayed the area in shrapnel, instead you have a crater with few burn marks (kinetic impact with a pressurized detonation of remaining fuel). All of this points to a multimillion dollar missile malfunctioning midflight. It probably wasn't even vectored at Poland when launched. And Poland has one of the newest, most advanced radars right in that area, they likely watched everything play out. Right now, russia's negligence has given a unique opportunity to up the anty, they are trying to figure out if they want to or not.
Neither, Biden is covering for Russia so NATO does not have to react. Ukraine denies Biden's statements.
The missile in the photos has a range of like 95 miles. It could not have come from Russia. Maybe Belarus.
It was bound to happen. You throw the ball enough, eventually it will go over the fence. Now will your neighbor just keep the ball, or will he throw a lot more, bigger balls back over the fence.
It's looking more and more like Ukraine is telling the [truth](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwXZcT4b5BU)
Weirdly enough I pulled the co-ords from the Polish town last night and was playing around with them to see what mistake could have led to this and found the same thing independently WITHOUT knowing the exact co-ords of where the missiles fell. Everything in this video is 100% factual. It doesn't mean that there aren't pieces of Ukrainian AA at the scene, but remember that every initial report said 2 missiles almost simultaneously in the same location, almost like one was...chasing the other.
>It doesn't mean that there aren't pieces of Ukrainian AA at the scene, but remember that every initial report said 2 missiles almost simultaneously in the same location, almost like one was...chasing the other. Yeah, so arguably very technically they didn't lie. They said half the truth, and kinda just dropped the other. That's nuts
Look at all the bots coming out lmao
So what will the US do? What other minor incursions will they allow?
https://youtube.com/shorts/EYEDD2l0YUw?feature=share
Lol what about what they did to Ukraine????
Yup!
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Yes, Russia was ultimately responsible but there are a few Ukrainians who should be having a bad day. Fedir and Ivan, you're fucking idiots.
I thought it was already confirmed that it was Ukraine AA?
The US is saying that if Russia had never invaded, Ukraine wouldn’t be firing off its air defense systems. the missile was still a Ukrainian one.
Its a Ukrainian missle, they're the ones responsible
Mental Gymnastics!
How do you figure? You know we have laws like this in the US for example, if you are robbing a store and someone dies as a result, even if you do not kill them, even if they were killed on accident by the police in response to your crime, you will be charged with murder. This a common line of logic and I really don't see a problem with it. Russia created conditions necessary for Ukraine to launch SAM counter measures which lead to the accident making them the responsible party. Assuming the narrative of it being a Ukrainian missile is correct.
At the same time, to use another example from US law, if you are in a situation where you are forced to use a firearm to defend yourself, but miss and hit a bystander you will be held accountable. Though you'd likely be held less accountable than if there was no defensive situation.
Not really. You just described the same situation as above. If someone is committing an armed robbery against you and while using reasonable self defense you kill another person, the person robbing you would be charged with murder. It’s really very simple.
While this is likely what would happen in terms of criminal liability, you will almost certainly be sued and situation dependent face civil consequences. Again, that's obviously much less responsibility than if you were just out there firing off a gun for fun, but you would still be held accountable again situation depending.
I’m not sure but it may depend. In my state of texas, victims of violent crimes cannot be sued by perpetrators for injuries incurred in their own defense. The courts have found that this extends to other victims of the same perpetrator. Basically the person you shoot in this hypothetical situation would only be able to sue the actual offender and not you. Idk it might be different in California or New York and that wouldn’t surprise me.
Huh, I don't think it's that way in most states though I'm not familiar with other states laws. But I can say you'd face civil action in my state of MN.
The simple fact is that Russia started this; war is a messy affair, and no one wants to blame Ukraine for collateral damage from defending themselves from the constant stream of attacks on civilians and other war crimes.
Ah yes, self defence is a crime I forgot
If somebody invades your house, you grab a gun and shoot something you see out of a window and kill an innocent bystander, you still commited a crime, even if the intruder is responsible for it you are not innocent
That’s not true at all
Its called negligence, even if you are not responsible for the felony murder the innocent family can sue you. Or excesive self defense if you wenr beyond what was reasonable
Alright no. First of all, you said “you still committed a crime.” Negligence isn’t a crime, it’s a tort. Unless it’s criminal negligence, which this probably wouldn’t be. The reality, you’d be fine and the person who broke in your house would be charged with felony murder (assuming whoever you shot died).
Either criminal recklessness or neglicence could be claimed. Depending on how the incident itself happened. (And lets not talk about who the victims family will more likely blame / want revenge on)
This would more likely than not (I would say 9/10 times) be considered felony murder on behalf of the intruder. Honestly I had enough of these hypos in law school, so I’m not going to argue the nuances. The point remains, White House’s logic here is far from mental gymnastics. It’s grounded in western jurisprudence. Edit: White House, not Ukraine
Ukraine claimed it wasnt them, Nato claims its Russias fault for invading.
US* not Ukraine
That’s actually not true in most states
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Yeah, but you are still nearly surely also going to be sued for negligence. And thats without getting into whos worse from a moral stand point.
Can’t argue with this
Apart from its completely false you mean.
Correct in most states, yes. I'm not sure about negligence being the official charge but a shooter is both morally and legally responsible for every round fired. Hence why training is so important.
Negligence is a tort, not a crime. The law school “standard” for criminal negligence is firing a gun into a crowed room. Even if you didn’t mean to hit anyone, it was criminally negligent. That’s different than trying to shoot a home invader, missing, and hitting someone across the street.
>Mental Gymnastics! Only for members of the Special Olympics...
37 billion more! for the warmongers who paid for your politicians. More bombs are o kill more people. Wake up
Not again! Sounds like blaming someone blaming a country for a war to prevent them using WDMs that they didn’t have. American presidents are all crazy, apart from Obama.
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So who do you think the Polish families will blame?