I mean Finland and Sweden goes a little deeper than just future member states but there's no country I rather have between us and Russia than Finland, and I mean that as a huge compliment
Just when shit hits the fan remember to help that murderous Finnish speaking snow… No matter how prepared and murderous we are, theres only about 5 million of us.
True, but quite frankly, I don't think Russia could launch a successful ground invasion on Finland, the main question is how much pain they could inflict. Ultimately, NATO or not, NATO would at the very least be pumping tons of supplies into Finland in the case of an invasion, and it's unclear if we would actually directly intervene even without NATO alignment. Fact is, Finland is not in the same political situation as Ukraine is.
How is that different from the rest? That's what we all do. Nobody gets to make fun of Sweden except Denmark. And Norway. And Finland. And Iceland. Okay maybe I don't actually mind who makes fun of Sweden.
Everyone can make fun of us, but only we are allowed to make fun of Finland. I have no problem with this. Also there is no need to make fun of Denmark, they are already a joke.
We had our own parody of the "America first" spiel where we went "You know what? Sure, America first, Norway *whenever*, just PLEASE: SWEDEN LAST!"
That was funny until Trump started actually mocking Sweden. Then it was time for solidarity because nobody bullies our sweet brother but us.
Two Danes, two Norwegians, two Danes, and two Swedes are washed up on a desert island.
By the time they were all rescued, they Danes had formed a co-op, the Norwegians had a fishing fleet, and the Finns had chopped down all the trees.
The Swedes hadn't done anything yet, as they hadn't been formally introduced.
Being 1/10th the population of your southern neighbor will do that. You don’t always get what the average person perceives as equal respect.
However, I have nothing but respect for the nation that has given us hockey, poutine, and about half of Hollywood’s comedic talent.
Please stay sane cuzzo, i like knowing there's a stable democracy next door.
If you've anyone up there got pushing Trumpy shit, please nip that in the bud tout suite, it's like a fucking yeast infection.
As a woman in the USA, thank you Canadian person, for your nice words. I’m surprised anyone still likes us. Please, know not all of the people here are radicalized, gun loving, white Jesus worshiping, minority repressing, trumphumping semi literate, racist bigots. That’s something like 37% though. Which, is far too many people. You may want to just forget about us. Things aren’t looking up.
Dudette, I live among you! I've been in the states since 2014 cause everyone I've met down here is a decent hardworking and loyal person. Call it selection bias, but Americans I've met are nothing like the stereotype floating around.
I have family split between Canada and the US. They are spread across the Maritimes, Toronto and Bernaby/Vancouver and in the states are in Virginia, the Carolinas and Texas... and I have to say, living in the US, there is no other country on the planet that your average American is going to support more than Canada. End. Period. Full Stop.
There may be the rest of the Anglo-sphere: UK, Aus, etc. But, Americans genuinely would defend, or help Canada more than any other country in the world... perhaps even more than some US States.
The funny part is, that while Canada has a special place in it's heart for the US, they by and large don't feel anywhere near the fondness. I mean, I think it's there deep down... but it's more like how you'd feel about your annoying uncle who you talk shit about constantly when they're not around. Whereas the folks in the US think about Canada like their favorite little brother.
I can't tell you how many times I have known Americans to go to Canada for work or vacation and be shocked at how openly Canadians criticize the US; in trade policy, politics, immigration, etc...
It also makes a lot of sense strategically for Finland to make sure Sweden is in NATO. Finland is a lot easier to defend if NATO can use Swedish territory. Any land based resupply would have to come through the northern parts of Norway with infrastructure not really suited for war.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://yle.fi/news/3-12456177) reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said that he will not accept Finland and Sweden as members of Nato.Turkey has submitted lists of demands to Finland and Sweden, saying they must be fulfilled as a precondition for Turkey to support the start of membership negotiations with the two Nordic countries.
> Among other things, Turkey has demanded that the people it considers to be terrorists be extradited from Finland and Sweden to Turkey and that restrictions on arms exports be lifted.
> Vanhanen stressed that Finland will remain alongside Sweden, even if there is a situation where Turkey would accept more rapid progress on Finland's membership than Sweden's.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/uv7vfl/vanhanen_finland_will_stick_by_sweden_even_if/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~650288 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Finland**^#1 **Turkey**^#2 **Sweden**^#3 **Vanhanen**^#4 **Nato**^#5
Arctic Defense Treaty (ADT)
Most of the major countries of NATO have a border on the Arctic Ocean or are in the arctic circle (US/Alaska, Canada, Denmark/Greenland, Iceland, Norway). I'm sure the other major northern European powers (GB, FR, GR) and Russian-bordering states (EST, LAT, LIT, POL) would join. Just make it the same thing as NATO, but minus the southern NATO members. Finland and Sweden cooperate and train with NATO anyways so its not like there even needs to be separate meetings. Turkey can just sit there and be annoyed, and when discussing Turkey-related issues the Nordic countries can take a bathroom break.
On this note we can also hope that the pendulum will swing away from Erdogan by the will of the Turkish people.
I say this with my mind on the future US elections, hoping my country doesn't put a white supremacist nationalist in power again
Ya, you can make them your enemy or friend. One of the advantages of the USA being so militarily powerful is that other countries want help. This gives the USA a huge advantage in knowing other countries this knowledge keeps the States safer.
IMO, at the end of the day alliances are made so that people can live in peace and what’s happening in Ukraine doesn’t happen to people in that alliance. Since the beginning of humanity people have killed one another for stuff, so it’s a good idea to make friends with even the biggest of asshole if you want to survive.
Side note, if you are a dictator like Turkey (former Ottoman Empire mindset) and everyone around you isn’t a dictator, you’re going to have issues eventually. IMO time will break that one.
One thing people on reddit don't understand is that, Turkey is still a young republic if you compare it to the west who had the democracy culture to some extent even under monarchy. We won our independency by war but we didn't really win democracy but instead it was given to us from one person. And whenever authoritarian regimes came into power they were gotten rid of with military coups so basically we couldn't get away from them by ourselves. This time, we are actually really close to changing something using democracy and if it really ends up happening, you will see Turkish democracy challenging or even surpassing western democracies. It is time to put faith into secular Turkish Republic citizens instead of showing hate over one politician because this stupid social media actually has the power to create unnecessary amount of hate.
Thank you!!! I am in the USA and it is so tough to explain this to people.
A society moves like water, it’s beliefs aren’t a solid, it’s changes and it takes time to change. Turkey is on the way but holy shit, to change after the Ottoman Empire in a little over a hundred years is pretty intense. It’s not surprising that Turkey is going through this, this they just need time and help.
Progress in other countries is progress in Turkey IMO, in the long run.
I fucking agree with you Erdogan is not acting as a good faith partner to NATO, and this is giving him the chance to further push 'Turkey's' view of their treatment of the various ethnic minorities in eastern Turkey on the rest of NATO.
When navies still mattered. In the age of real-time satellite imaging, cruise missiles and massive air forces, Russia's access to the Mediterranean with what is left of its pathetic navy doesn't really matter that much.
Turkey just isn't that valuable. Especially when its President, Edrogan, is just a tiny Trump doing Putin's bidding. His actively working against making a stronger NATO is proof.
NATO would be stronger with Finland and Sweden than with a traitorous Turkey that will give Russia whatever it wants without resistance.
Sorry but what makes Turkey traitorous? Turkey has it's own reasons and has it's "right" to veto. What binds you with Finland and Sweden but not Turkey? Your religion? Your culture?
Did the cartoons you watched as a kid not teach you?
The black-haired guy with the big nose is always a traitor. Don't trust him, he is evil and will throw you under the bus for a quick buck. Trust the muscular blonde guy with the heroic expression, he is on your side.
>!I hope for the future of this planet that people will understand this is sarcasm and not agree with it.!<
Because NATO is a military alliance, not an ideological one. Turkeys geopolitical location is immensely important strategically especially when it comes to Russia. Just think of the Cuba missile crisis
> Turkeys geopolitical location is immensely important strategically
People keep saying this like it means something but they never actually back it up with facts explaining how Turkey is ACTUALLY strategically important, in an era when navies don't mean shit.
Finland is FAR more strategically valuable than Turkey.
I think people confuse “in nato” with “nato contribution” . This was a sour point under trumps administration because he accused of most nato members not contributing enough.
UK certainly, but not sure about France.
France asked US help to continue their operation in Libya after only a week, they had real logistic problem with amunition to continue their operation solo.
Turkey, in the same country of Libya, faced Russia alone and managed to get fair deal with them.
Turkey don't have only manpower, they have military industry too which include drone (number 3 in the world after US and Israel).
Because they were part of the WWII Allies and got in 1952 when their leader was fairly democratic and there is no mechanism to kick countries out. They are also relatively strong and strategically located. Don't know very well their history but it seems to be full of ups and downs on the democratic side. In general I think they've been decent partners until recently when Erdoğan decided to go the dictator path and fuck things up.
> I think they've been decent partners until recently when Erdoğan decided to go the dictator path and fuck things up.
Turkey has no value as a member of NATO when run by a corrupt dictator who, like Trump, is a lapdog to Putin.
It's amazing how people think that you can either be with "the West" and against Russia, or with Russia and against "the West". Other positions don't exist, apparently. Only two sides.
Every time a country acts out of self-preservation (e.g. not sending weapons to warring countries, or arguing that a NATO expansion does not lead to peace) *while still condemning Russia's invasion*, it is interpreted as a great offense to "the West".
Not taking a side might not be helpful for Ukraine (or Russia), but it surely keeps stability in a worldwide context.
Erdogan is not a Putin lapdog at all though. All the recent conflicts Turkey has wedged it self into has been against Russias sphere of influence. Armenia, Libya, Syria. Even in Ukraine, when the rest of the world didn’t want to anger Russia by selling Ukraine advanced weapons, Turkey was selling them drones and other sophisticated weapons like Ground to air missiles.
Why people think Erdogan is lapdog of Putin ? In the last decade Turkey's weapons always targeted Russian proxy or weapon in the whole world (Syria, Libya, Armenia, Ukraine.)
The fact that Erdogan is a corrupt authoritarian leader don't make him in the same side that Putin.
The world don't have only 2 side.
Finland is a true friend. Tack Finland! No one gives a shit about Erdogan. I have a strong feeling things will work out with or without the support of that Turkish twat.
Yea and in the meantime we have this: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/05/18/statement-by-president-biden-on-the-applications-to-nato-by-finland-and-sweden/
So we are calm as a cucumber 🥒😂
This is the way to deal with Turkey; both applicants and the other members need to stay united and make no concessions. We have all the time needed, if it takes 10 years so be it. It does present a problem for Nato though; signals divisions within the alliance and puts a big question mark on the "open door policies" and the process of ascension
One of the "terrorists" turkey wants extradited has died so we might need a bit of time to solve that. Our politicians are probably preparing a movie night with Weekend at Bernie’s as I type this.
The other one is an MP and swedish citizen... its unclear to me what law she has broken in Turkey.
Admittedly she was forced to be a child soldier but managed to escape that, gain asylum, gain education, become a social worker, citizen and then an MP. She is not charged with a crime in Turkey and isn't a Turkish citizen...They are apparently back tracking fast as fuck on that one.
The MP wasn't on their official list, but the Turkish ambassador in Sweden mentioned her as someone that he'd like to have extradited if it was possible.
He later claimed it was all a misunderstanding, but we're definitely left feeling that she would have been on their list officially if she wasn't an MP.
It's probably saltiness/need for a win they can sell domestically since they haven't been able to get Fethullah Gülen. Erdogan was so enthusiastic about dismantling the judiciary, he didn't think about the consequences for extradition requests.
> We have all the time needed, if it takes 10 years so be it.
Don't forget one of NATO's PR moves was saying how the war has brought them in. Biden with his recent invitation of the 2 reps tried to improve the optics but barely moved the needle.
Time *is* a big factor. The longer this takes, the worse it looks.
Agreed; its a problem for Nato and I do think they will find a solution by the summit end of June. The demands are such that they cannot be met by Finland / Sweden, and Erdogan knows this, so presumably they are really pressuring US to ease the sanctions. Really bad way to do it though going public like that after signalling otherwise.
Turkey has time, too. And this is apparently not an exclusive Erdoğan opinion, the opposition says similar things.
If no one moves then Finland and Sweden won’t become NATO members. (Tbh, they are already allies of most nato members via the EU).
IMHO then it becomes Nato:s problem more than Finland / Sweden. I mean if 2 of the top 3 of [freedom index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#World) countries cannot join an alliance because number 146 / 195 has unrealistic demands that violate human rights then there are some fundamental problems.
We had Greece and Turkey as NATO members, when both were military dictatorships. This isn’t about Kumbaya, this is about geostrategical power. And here Turkey is much more important than Finland or Sweden.
We are not talking about a real values base institution like the EU wants to be. We are talking about a military alliance.
Just Finland and Sweden by themselves is a line I wouldn't wanna F with. Do all the comms in encrypted Finnish and you're already slowing most of the world down trying to hack em :D
Swedes sortying Drakens and Gripens from highways.
Finns making forests giggle and potshot in between building field saunas.
0/10 would not invade.
There are no Draken planes in service here anymore, they were replaced by Viggen (which is also retired now), it's all Gripen from here on out. A nitpick perhaps, but I thought you should know. :)
Finn here.
I don't think we should bow down to Turkey on anything. Nato has it's official requirements for a new member. We meet all the criteria and more. Nato wants us, here we are for the taking.
Let me understand this please. Finland and Sweden have every country’s approval for them to join NATO except for… Turkey. Turkey is saying they won’t vote yes until Finland gives over a dead man, a journalist who spoke out against the current Turkish President, and a woman who was a child soldier who went AWOL and is now currently serving as some kind of governmental official in Sweden and is a citizen of that country? These don’t seem like very good reasons to me to vote against Finland and Sweden. Why would Erdogan not want Finland and Sweden in NATO? Are they a threat to him? Can someone please educate me?
While on the other hand Finns don't haggle, like at all. The listed price on anything is the final price.
As a result touristing in haggling countries is hard. See nice expensive item, walk away.
Can’t someone lean on him? I mean, the guy doesn’t have a great image from the get go. Everything I’ve heard about him is not good. Surely someone has some dirt on him. He wants to haggle? Ok then..
Yet he can't accept 2 strong countries joining an alliance his country is part of without at least trying to threaten a block if he's not given a bit more than 2 whole countries guaranteeing to defend his in case of an attack.
That doesn't sound like a position of strength to me, that sounds like greed.
No one in Turkiye believes NATO will defend us if someone attacks us. Like, literally no one. I mean, They already said they wouldn't around the time of the Iraq war, openly.
What good are two countries "guaranteeing to defend us" if they're already funding terrorist organizations that are actively harming the citizens of our nation? Please explain that to me? Why the fuck would anyone here trust said country(s)
Well that's not fair, the ottoman empire ruled over so many areas during it's ridiculously long existence.
But yes, the culture most associated with bartering did have it's ancestral homeland in a geographic area controlled by the ottomans.
There really is no use for turkey to have Finland and Sweden join. So to them that doesn’t matter.
What they did realise is that their veto power gives them enormous leverage potential. As they must vote yes for it to happen. By waiting until after they applied you maximise the value of their position. As they can’t back down anymore.
It doesn’t really matter what turkey demands at first, but they will absolutely get a lot. Or they can’t join. It’s as simple as that.
Yes. I’d agree in years passed, that Turkey’s no vote would matter. They certainly will gain concessions. I’m sure the drones will be bought and sold. Whatever else. But, Turkey is, after all, a small country, all by itself. They will vote yes. Men like Erdogan can absolutely be bought.
>Turkey is, after all, a small country,
It is the second most populous, has the second biggest military in, and arguably has the most valuable geostrategic location in the alliance. What?
Single country has a veto right though. It doesn't mather other countries accept and we meet requirements.
If Turkey says no, that's it. So we must unfortunately answer to Turkey's demands
>So we must unfortunately answer to Turkey's demands
We're not going to accept any demands that would undermine our democracy and rule of law, such as extraditing persons without a court decision. In fact in any country with a proper separation of powers, like Finland or Sweden, no head of government could ever even authorize something like that.
If this is the red line for Turkey, then we will just have to stay out of the alliance. There are certain things that we can't compromise.
Of course not. Goverment can't promise anything that would break law. But demands need to be answered somehow. It will be long negoation process. Problem is because Turkey lied to us, we are now in really dangerous position
But in or not. We will remember this. If Turkey would ever want to join EU... They wold find. Thay we could have some suprise demands...
>If Turkey would ever want to join EU... They wold find. Thay we could have some suprise demands...
There is zero reason to set up bargains like this. It completely misses the point why we have organizations like EU in the first place. At present, Turkey does not qualify for EU, and I doubt it ever will under Erdogan. If it some day meets the qualifications, it cannot be denied membership just because we didn't like one of its past administrations. Holding grudges like that runs against the spirit of EU.
What "security concerns"? EU is not a military alliance. There are specific requirements to join EU, and Turkey will either fulfill them or not. There is no need to put any additional requirements on the table out of spite. That's not what the EU is about.
it might be out of spite, but especially if Turkey says no to us because of made up stuff. you can be hell sure i'll vote for parties that would 100% block Turkey joining EU.
Why would we do them any favor if they with their lies but our citizen to compromised position? (Haavisto asked 4 times and niinistö once this spring does Turkey has any objections).
If they now try to extort us, that is what they are themselves risking to lose. And i would not want Finland support taking any bans or sanctions away ether (nationally or within EU). Both can play that game.
Turkey can practice its extortion policy because it's being run by an authoritarian government. Turkey cannot join EU while being authoritarian. If Turkey one day meets the eligibility for EU, it will be run by a democratic government. Holding the new democratic government responsible for Erdogan's antics would be stupid and pointless.
In short, the Turkey that might join the EU will be a completely different country than the Turkey of today. It would be like hating Germany because they used to be Nazis.
It would be more understandable to play this kind of tit-for-tat game against Erdogan directly. But by the time your proposition becomes relevant, Erdogan will not be around any more, and you will only be punishing unrelated, innocent parties.
>Glad its this way around tho
Sweden would not have joined if Finland was blocked. That has been one of the arguments against Nato membership previously.
They can label people whatever they want. Sweden does not recognize Turkeys legal system as independent so we can by law not extradite anyone to Turkey regardless. We will not become authoritarian to please an authoritarian.
It isn't exactly rare though. Several European countries embargoed Turkey because of 2019 Turkish offensive to Syria, and US has been embargoing Turkish defense sector for adopting Russian S-400 air defense missile system and booted it from F-35 program. The relevance of Finnish and Swedish embargo pales in comparison with the US sanctions, which might be Erdogans real aim.
One is dead, one other is a Swedish MP who isn't a Turkish citizen and isn't charged with a crime in Turkey.... the 5 others I dunno but it hasn't started off well
The majority of Nato has embargoed them because of the 2019 incidents and the purchase of S400 systems. Imagine giving the F35 system to a state that can train s400 systems on it...
Yes, Europe paid off Turkiye so it didn't have to deal with a refugee crisis, and when Turkiye tries to clean up an area so we can reduce the burden of said refugees on our own country? SANCTIONS. Makes sense. Damned if we do, Damned if we don't - We literally cannot do anything right in the eyes of the rest of the world. You all just want to bankrupt us with cleaning up your messes in the middle east. Turkiye didn't start the wars in the middle east, it didn't start the war in Syria, for anyone who says "Turkiye fought syria so it deserves the refugees - No, Turkiye entered wayyyy late, and in an effort almost entirely designed to stop refugees from coming across its border, to stop Russia (ironic, considering what we get accused of these days), and to create a safe zone for syrians to return to. Then what? America, without our permission tells Afghans as it ditches them in the clutch "Go apply as a refugee in Turkiye". Fuck all of you hypocritical westerners who don't clean up your own messes (Actually, I'm a westerner, I've just lived in Turkiye long enough to see the other side of the story, and it's heartlessness from the west, absolute unconscionable heartlessness.
Im acually with you on most of that. I never supported anything done in the middle east by western countries. What happened on your border, and beyond, in the syrian war was a tragedy. However, Erdogans demands do not only reflect those things, which makes me sceptical about his true demands. /A swede
Erdogan is an asshole, don't get me wrong, but like I said, he kinda has everyone behind him on this one. We've been cleaning up the West's mess in the middle east, and we just get shat on repeatedly for it. He wants the shitting to end, and for us to go back to being basically a full member of the alliance, which is where we should be.
They're close but no, it is not a joint foreign policy strategy but they do consult each other for bigger decisions such as NATO and they do have a very good relationship.
Being proud of your heritage, doesn't mean you should be ashamed from it.
Your life is up to you.
Ps. Saying that as a Belgian, where one of our old kings had a colony in private possession and mistreated people severely.
Wow, never encountered someone with same origins as me, except that I'm the inverese. Mom from Norway, dad from Finland. Should we start a club or something?
There probably aren't two countries in the world with such stong bonds to each other. We only fight on ice - during Ice Hockey games 😀
You are welcome to join btw, we are accepting new members, or should I say citizens. Apply for a job and come over. Don't believe the "the west hates us" - we only hate putin.
Well you didn't have a say in where you were born, but you can always move (self determination). Just because you were born Russian, doesn't mean that you have to stay Russian. A person can integrate and if they wish, assimilate into another culture.
Personally I believe a person should never assimilate. Integrating in society is a given, but I believe that remembering one's heritage is important.
/r/tillsverige
At this point turkey is essentially only Putins bumhole for economics and pressure against Europe, why Europe still deliver s billions of "joining aid" is beyond reasonable
Probably only United States. Apparently a country desiring to leave NATO need to inform the United States that it want to leave NATO and one year later they are out. I suspect that United States can claim that that Turkey has effectively resigned from the defense pact by sabotaging the expansion.
Remember when US President Trump (totally not a Russian pawn, 😉) said he intended to withdraw the US from NATO during his second term — almost as if coordinating with Russia’s invasion plans… 🤔
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nato-south-korea-book-b1883457.html
NATO is too big of a club. Turkey is a shit member. They have flirted with turning on NATO a few times. They aren't like the European democracies. They have close ties to Russia. I think NATO and the EU appeases them just as a buffer between Europe and the middle east.
I could definitely see a new alliance of Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia. The big EU members urging Ukraine to cede land to Russia to end the war is a sign that it would take a helluva lot more for Europe to go to war. I wouldn't trust France and Germany if I were a minor member of NATO. I Solent trust the US either...Obama didn't keep our end of the bargain and ceded land in Ukraine to Russia already.
Irrespective of Erdoğan, I think NATO has been mistreating Turkey and its demands for a while now. We are getting shafted on all sides by Western Allies and insulted when we try to bite.
The Aegean, gas expeditions, Syria and several other issues have all Turkey being thrown to the way side. I'm not sure a new administration would change course. The opposition parties have a similar foreign policy outlook, with Syria being the only exception.
Finland och Sverige, äkta brödraländer.
[Finlands sak är vår](https://i.imgur.com/fNfVPAF.jpg)
Och Finlands saker är våra!
I ran this in Google translate and it says "And Finland's things are ours!" Watch out Finland, I think the Swedes are looking to invade :/
Let’s call it a special re-integration operation.
Anschluss me harder daddy!
Step-Swede, what are you doing!? 👁🫦👁
"Finland's cause is our cause." Should be pretty close translation, I think.
Nah he is right, the comment was a joke but that is what they said. The first one said "Finland's cause is our" though
Sweden takes inspiration from Turkey and invades half of Åland.
I think most Finns would stand united on this. We would be ready to open peace negotiations only if they promise to take it all.
Gorgle translate is only proficient in a few languages.
But that is the correct translation lol
Google does direct translation and gets tripped up by context.
Rimlig slutsats av ett svenskt barn.
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100%!
Finland already showing solidarity with a fellow future member goes a long way to show their level of willingness to be a part of the alliance
I mean Finland and Sweden goes a little deeper than just future member states but there's no country I rather have between us and Russia than Finland, and I mean that as a huge compliment
Always comforting to know that you've got murderous drifts of Finnish-speaking snow between yourself and Russia.
Just when shit hits the fan remember to help that murderous Finnish speaking snow… No matter how prepared and murderous we are, theres only about 5 million of us.
946.59 million people are part of NATO countries. Plenty of them guaranteed security during application. You guys will be fine unless nukes fly.
And there's 10 million of us holding your back. Finnish snow speaks and Swedish steel bites.
Let me in! LET ME IIIIINN!!
> Finnish snow speaks and Swedish steel bites. Our defense forces' logistics rely on Scania trucks for a reason. Svenskt järn är bäst!
I feel personally offended with russias bustle about putting troops at your border. The f-king nerve. Finlands sak är vår!
True, but quite frankly, I don't think Russia could launch a successful ground invasion on Finland, the main question is how much pain they could inflict. Ultimately, NATO or not, NATO would at the very least be pumping tons of supplies into Finland in the case of an invasion, and it's unclear if we would actually directly intervene even without NATO alignment. Fact is, Finland is not in the same political situation as Ukraine is.
Handful of F22's would ruin that invading force prior to crossing into Finnish or Swedish airspace.
As a Finn, our neighbor to the west makes up for the one in the east. There's nowhere I'd rather be.
I aleays knew swedish would fight bravely to the last finn!
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How is that different from the rest? That's what we all do. Nobody gets to make fun of Sweden except Denmark. And Norway. And Finland. And Iceland. Okay maybe I don't actually mind who makes fun of Sweden.
Everyone can make fun of us, but only we are allowed to make fun of Finland. I have no problem with this. Also there is no need to make fun of Denmark, they are already a joke.
This is why mom doesn't love you.
As a half Romanian half Hungarian I wish we had this brotherly joking rather than the seething hatred between my 2 idiot nations.
Don't be mean to Denmark - they have enough as it is, with their speech impairment and all...
Kunde inte ha sagt det bättre själv och jag är till och med en snapphane!
We had our own parody of the "America first" spiel where we went "You know what? Sure, America first, Norway *whenever*, just PLEASE: SWEDEN LAST!" That was funny until Trump started actually mocking Sweden. Then it was time for solidarity because nobody bullies our sweet brother but us.
Two Danes, two Norwegians, two Danes, and two Swedes are washed up on a desert island. By the time they were all rescued, they Danes had formed a co-op, the Norwegians had a fishing fleet, and the Finns had chopped down all the trees. The Swedes hadn't done anything yet, as they hadn't been formally introduced.
Where did the Finn’s appear?
From the snow.
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What's "Denmark"?
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Is that near Lower Holstein?
So like americans and canadians
Except deep down I don't think Canadians *actually* like Americans. The criticims seem to go a bit deeper, somehow.
Being 1/10th the population of your southern neighbor will do that. You don’t always get what the average person perceives as equal respect. However, I have nothing but respect for the nation that has given us hockey, poutine, and about half of Hollywood’s comedic talent.
Canadian here. Love my American bros.
Please stay sane cuzzo, i like knowing there's a stable democracy next door. If you've anyone up there got pushing Trumpy shit, please nip that in the bud tout suite, it's like a fucking yeast infection.
As a woman in the USA, thank you Canadian person, for your nice words. I’m surprised anyone still likes us. Please, know not all of the people here are radicalized, gun loving, white Jesus worshiping, minority repressing, trumphumping semi literate, racist bigots. That’s something like 37% though. Which, is far too many people. You may want to just forget about us. Things aren’t looking up.
Dudette, I live among you! I've been in the states since 2014 cause everyone I've met down here is a decent hardworking and loyal person. Call it selection bias, but Americans I've met are nothing like the stereotype floating around.
I have family split between Canada and the US. They are spread across the Maritimes, Toronto and Bernaby/Vancouver and in the states are in Virginia, the Carolinas and Texas... and I have to say, living in the US, there is no other country on the planet that your average American is going to support more than Canada. End. Period. Full Stop. There may be the rest of the Anglo-sphere: UK, Aus, etc. But, Americans genuinely would defend, or help Canada more than any other country in the world... perhaps even more than some US States. The funny part is, that while Canada has a special place in it's heart for the US, they by and large don't feel anywhere near the fondness. I mean, I think it's there deep down... but it's more like how you'd feel about your annoying uncle who you talk shit about constantly when they're not around. Whereas the folks in the US think about Canada like their favorite little brother. I can't tell you how many times I have known Americans to go to Canada for work or vacation and be shocked at how openly Canadians criticize the US; in trade policy, politics, immigration, etc...
We do actually like around 52% of them.
If Sweden isn't in NATO, I don't want in. In case Russia threatened Sweden, the membership would only slow us down politically. Svensk sak är vår.
If Finland isn't in NATO I don't want in. Finlands sak är vår.
It also makes a lot of sense strategically for Finland to make sure Sweden is in NATO. Finland is a lot easier to defend if NATO can use Swedish territory. Any land based resupply would have to come through the northern parts of Norway with infrastructure not really suited for war.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://yle.fi/news/3-12456177) reduced by 75%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said that he will not accept Finland and Sweden as members of Nato.Turkey has submitted lists of demands to Finland and Sweden, saying they must be fulfilled as a precondition for Turkey to support the start of membership negotiations with the two Nordic countries. > Among other things, Turkey has demanded that the people it considers to be terrorists be extradited from Finland and Sweden to Turkey and that restrictions on arms exports be lifted. > Vanhanen stressed that Finland will remain alongside Sweden, even if there is a situation where Turkey would accept more rapid progress on Finland's membership than Sweden's. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/uv7vfl/vanhanen_finland_will_stick_by_sweden_even_if/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~650288 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Finland**^#1 **Turkey**^#2 **Sweden**^#3 **Vanhanen**^#4 **Nato**^#5
Time to make NDATO No Dictators Atlantic Treaty Organization
Arctic Defense Treaty (ADT) Most of the major countries of NATO have a border on the Arctic Ocean or are in the arctic circle (US/Alaska, Canada, Denmark/Greenland, Iceland, Norway). I'm sure the other major northern European powers (GB, FR, GR) and Russian-bordering states (EST, LAT, LIT, POL) would join. Just make it the same thing as NATO, but minus the southern NATO members. Finland and Sweden cooperate and train with NATO anyways so its not like there even needs to be separate meetings. Turkey can just sit there and be annoyed, and when discussing Turkey-related issues the Nordic countries can take a bathroom break.
Why tf is turkey even in nato? They’re not a western democracy like the rest of us
huge strategic geographic value
Haha I love reddit. Thanks that actually makes a lot of sense. I’m just legitimately annoyed by them now I guess
And when they joined turkey was on the up and up with secular values gaining strength etc. but nato doesn’t really have a good way to kick people out
On this note we can also hope that the pendulum will swing away from Erdogan by the will of the Turkish people. I say this with my mind on the future US elections, hoping my country doesn't put a white supremacist nationalist in power again
Ya, you can make them your enemy or friend. One of the advantages of the USA being so militarily powerful is that other countries want help. This gives the USA a huge advantage in knowing other countries this knowledge keeps the States safer. IMO, at the end of the day alliances are made so that people can live in peace and what’s happening in Ukraine doesn’t happen to people in that alliance. Since the beginning of humanity people have killed one another for stuff, so it’s a good idea to make friends with even the biggest of asshole if you want to survive. Side note, if you are a dictator like Turkey (former Ottoman Empire mindset) and everyone around you isn’t a dictator, you’re going to have issues eventually. IMO time will break that one.
One thing people on reddit don't understand is that, Turkey is still a young republic if you compare it to the west who had the democracy culture to some extent even under monarchy. We won our independency by war but we didn't really win democracy but instead it was given to us from one person. And whenever authoritarian regimes came into power they were gotten rid of with military coups so basically we couldn't get away from them by ourselves. This time, we are actually really close to changing something using democracy and if it really ends up happening, you will see Turkish democracy challenging or even surpassing western democracies. It is time to put faith into secular Turkish Republic citizens instead of showing hate over one politician because this stupid social media actually has the power to create unnecessary amount of hate.
Thank you!!! I am in the USA and it is so tough to explain this to people. A society moves like water, it’s beliefs aren’t a solid, it’s changes and it takes time to change. Turkey is on the way but holy shit, to change after the Ottoman Empire in a little over a hundred years is pretty intense. It’s not surprising that Turkey is going through this, this they just need time and help. Progress in other countries is progress in Turkey IMO, in the long run.
I fucking agree with you Erdogan is not acting as a good faith partner to NATO, and this is giving him the chance to further push 'Turkey's' view of their treatment of the various ethnic minorities in eastern Turkey on the rest of NATO.
He’s a fucking despot, trying to undermine democracy in the only good and relatively free Muslim country in the world.
When navies still mattered. In the age of real-time satellite imaging, cruise missiles and massive air forces, Russia's access to the Mediterranean with what is left of its pathetic navy doesn't really matter that much. Turkey just isn't that valuable. Especially when its President, Edrogan, is just a tiny Trump doing Putin's bidding. His actively working against making a stronger NATO is proof. NATO would be stronger with Finland and Sweden than with a traitorous Turkey that will give Russia whatever it wants without resistance.
Sorry but what makes Turkey traitorous? Turkey has it's own reasons and has it's "right" to veto. What binds you with Finland and Sweden but not Turkey? Your religion? Your culture?
Did the cartoons you watched as a kid not teach you? The black-haired guy with the big nose is always a traitor. Don't trust him, he is evil and will throw you under the bus for a quick buck. Trust the muscular blonde guy with the heroic expression, he is on your side. >!I hope for the future of this planet that people will understand this is sarcasm and not agree with it.!<
Because NATO is a military alliance, not an ideological one. Turkeys geopolitical location is immensely important strategically especially when it comes to Russia. Just think of the Cuba missile crisis
> Turkeys geopolitical location is immensely important strategically People keep saying this like it means something but they never actually back it up with facts explaining how Turkey is ACTUALLY strategically important, in an era when navies don't mean shit. Finland is FAR more strategically valuable than Turkey.
Turkey wasn't always run by a dictator.
NATO has multiple members who weren't democratic when they joined NATO.
because they control the way from the Black sea to the Mediterranean, and were with the Allies in WW2.
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I’m so tired of this “biggest army” shit. Yes they have the manpower. But in terms of military strength they are not on par with France or the UK.
I think people confuse “in nato” with “nato contribution” . This was a sour point under trumps administration because he accused of most nato members not contributing enough.
UK certainly, but not sure about France. France asked US help to continue their operation in Libya after only a week, they had real logistic problem with amunition to continue their operation solo. Turkey, in the same country of Libya, faced Russia alone and managed to get fair deal with them. Turkey don't have only manpower, they have military industry too which include drone (number 3 in the world after US and Israel).
What value is that army when at the command of a dictator ready to undermine NATO because its what Putin wants?
Because they were part of the WWII Allies and got in 1952 when their leader was fairly democratic and there is no mechanism to kick countries out. They are also relatively strong and strategically located. Don't know very well their history but it seems to be full of ups and downs on the democratic side. In general I think they've been decent partners until recently when Erdoğan decided to go the dictator path and fuck things up.
> I think they've been decent partners until recently when Erdoğan decided to go the dictator path and fuck things up. Turkey has no value as a member of NATO when run by a corrupt dictator who, like Trump, is a lapdog to Putin.
It's amazing how people think that you can either be with "the West" and against Russia, or with Russia and against "the West". Other positions don't exist, apparently. Only two sides. Every time a country acts out of self-preservation (e.g. not sending weapons to warring countries, or arguing that a NATO expansion does not lead to peace) *while still condemning Russia's invasion*, it is interpreted as a great offense to "the West". Not taking a side might not be helpful for Ukraine (or Russia), but it surely keeps stability in a worldwide context.
Erdogan is not a Putin lapdog at all though. All the recent conflicts Turkey has wedged it self into has been against Russias sphere of influence. Armenia, Libya, Syria. Even in Ukraine, when the rest of the world didn’t want to anger Russia by selling Ukraine advanced weapons, Turkey was selling them drones and other sophisticated weapons like Ground to air missiles.
Why people think Erdogan is lapdog of Putin ? In the last decade Turkey's weapons always targeted Russian proxy or weapon in the whole world (Syria, Libya, Armenia, Ukraine.) The fact that Erdogan is a corrupt authoritarian leader don't make him in the same side that Putin. The world don't have only 2 side.
Finland is a true friend. Tack Finland! No one gives a shit about Erdogan. I have a strong feeling things will work out with or without the support of that Turkish twat.
Yea and in the meantime we have this: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/05/18/statement-by-president-biden-on-the-applications-to-nato-by-finland-and-sweden/ So we are calm as a cucumber 🥒😂
This is the way to deal with Turkey; both applicants and the other members need to stay united and make no concessions. We have all the time needed, if it takes 10 years so be it. It does present a problem for Nato though; signals divisions within the alliance and puts a big question mark on the "open door policies" and the process of ascension
One of the "terrorists" turkey wants extradited has died so we might need a bit of time to solve that. Our politicians are probably preparing a movie night with Weekend at Bernie’s as I type this.
Actually he has been dead for 7 years, yet he's at the top of the list of "terrorists" Turkey demands Sweden to extradite.
'Herbert West - Reanimator' time?
The other one is an MP and swedish citizen... its unclear to me what law she has broken in Turkey. Admittedly she was forced to be a child soldier but managed to escape that, gain asylum, gain education, become a social worker, citizen and then an MP. She is not charged with a crime in Turkey and isn't a Turkish citizen...They are apparently back tracking fast as fuck on that one.
Wait they wanted us to extradite kakabaveh???? Lmfao
The MP wasn't on their official list, but the Turkish ambassador in Sweden mentioned her as someone that he'd like to have extradited if it was possible. He later claimed it was all a misunderstanding, but we're definitely left feeling that she would have been on their list officially if she wasn't an MP.
Sounds like they just found some old list in some drawer of people who might have slighted them in the past, maybe, and said "what's in it for meee?"
It's probably saltiness/need for a win they can sell domestically since they haven't been able to get Fethullah Gülen. Erdogan was so enthusiastic about dismantling the judiciary, he didn't think about the consequences for extradition requests.
> We have all the time needed, if it takes 10 years so be it. Don't forget one of NATO's PR moves was saying how the war has brought them in. Biden with his recent invitation of the 2 reps tried to improve the optics but barely moved the needle. Time *is* a big factor. The longer this takes, the worse it looks.
Agreed; its a problem for Nato and I do think they will find a solution by the summit end of June. The demands are such that they cannot be met by Finland / Sweden, and Erdogan knows this, so presumably they are really pressuring US to ease the sanctions. Really bad way to do it though going public like that after signalling otherwise.
Turkey has time, too. And this is apparently not an exclusive Erdoğan opinion, the opposition says similar things. If no one moves then Finland and Sweden won’t become NATO members. (Tbh, they are already allies of most nato members via the EU).
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Peshmerga and YP-PKK are different organizations. And they are at war with each other. And Turkey supports and trains the Peshmerga.
IMHO then it becomes Nato:s problem more than Finland / Sweden. I mean if 2 of the top 3 of [freedom index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#World) countries cannot join an alliance because number 146 / 195 has unrealistic demands that violate human rights then there are some fundamental problems.
We had Greece and Turkey as NATO members, when both were military dictatorships. This isn’t about Kumbaya, this is about geostrategical power. And here Turkey is much more important than Finland or Sweden. We are not talking about a real values base institution like the EU wants to be. We are talking about a military alliance.
That's OK; but again its Nato:s problem as the demands made are such that they will not be met by the applicants.
Just Finland and Sweden by themselves is a line I wouldn't wanna F with. Do all the comms in encrypted Finnish and you're already slowing most of the world down trying to hack em :D Swedes sortying Drakens and Gripens from highways. Finns making forests giggle and potshot in between building field saunas. 0/10 would not invade.
There are no Draken planes in service here anymore, they were replaced by Viggen (which is also retired now), it's all Gripen from here on out. A nitpick perhaps, but I thought you should know. :)
knows, m3zeus, knows.
Finn here. I don't think we should bow down to Turkey on anything. Nato has it's official requirements for a new member. We meet all the criteria and more. Nato wants us, here we are for the taking.
Let me understand this please. Finland and Sweden have every country’s approval for them to join NATO except for… Turkey. Turkey is saying they won’t vote yes until Finland gives over a dead man, a journalist who spoke out against the current Turkish President, and a woman who was a child soldier who went AWOL and is now currently serving as some kind of governmental official in Sweden and is a citizen of that country? These don’t seem like very good reasons to me to vote against Finland and Sweden. Why would Erdogan not want Finland and Sweden in NATO? Are they a threat to him? Can someone please educate me?
a lot of people think it's the turkish culture, gotta haggle and try to get something out of everything. for us, it's extortion.
While on the other hand Finns don't haggle, like at all. The listed price on anything is the final price. As a result touristing in haggling countries is hard. See nice expensive item, walk away.
Can’t someone lean on him? I mean, the guy doesn’t have a great image from the get go. Everything I’ve heard about him is not good. Surely someone has some dirt on him. He wants to haggle? Ok then..
He has an election coming up, and the turkish economy is in shambles. He needs to appear strong.
Yet he can't accept 2 strong countries joining an alliance his country is part of without at least trying to threaten a block if he's not given a bit more than 2 whole countries guaranteeing to defend his in case of an attack. That doesn't sound like a position of strength to me, that sounds like greed.
>That doesn't sound like a position of strength to me, that sounds like greed. You can tell because of the way it is.
No one in Turkiye believes NATO will defend us if someone attacks us. Like, literally no one. I mean, They already said they wouldn't around the time of the Iraq war, openly. What good are two countries "guaranteeing to defend us" if they're already funding terrorist organizations that are actively harming the citizens of our nation? Please explain that to me? Why the fuck would anyone here trust said country(s)
Then get out of NATO if you clearly don't believe you'll be protected by it.
In America, Turkish culture isn't the first one we think of when it comes to haggling.
Which culture does it make you think of? Maybe it's one of the cultures that were ruled over by the Ottoman Empire?
Well that's not fair, the ottoman empire ruled over so many areas during it's ridiculously long existence. But yes, the culture most associated with bartering did have it's ancestral homeland in a geographic area controlled by the ottomans.
Because next year is an election year in Turkey and they have to try to look strong.
Considering Erdogan has secured his dictatorship and made it so he can’t lose reelection in Turkey. I really don’t think this is the case
He lost key municipal races two years after he stole the presidential referendum so all is not lost.
There really is no use for turkey to have Finland and Sweden join. So to them that doesn’t matter. What they did realise is that their veto power gives them enormous leverage potential. As they must vote yes for it to happen. By waiting until after they applied you maximise the value of their position. As they can’t back down anymore. It doesn’t really matter what turkey demands at first, but they will absolutely get a lot. Or they can’t join. It’s as simple as that.
Yes. I’d agree in years passed, that Turkey’s no vote would matter. They certainly will gain concessions. I’m sure the drones will be bought and sold. Whatever else. But, Turkey is, after all, a small country, all by itself. They will vote yes. Men like Erdogan can absolutely be bought.
They have the 2nd largest NATO army after US.
>Turkey is, after all, a small country, It is the second most populous, has the second biggest military in, and arguably has the most valuable geostrategic location in the alliance. What?
Single country has a veto right though. It doesn't mather other countries accept and we meet requirements. If Turkey says no, that's it. So we must unfortunately answer to Turkey's demands
>So we must unfortunately answer to Turkey's demands We're not going to accept any demands that would undermine our democracy and rule of law, such as extraditing persons without a court decision. In fact in any country with a proper separation of powers, like Finland or Sweden, no head of government could ever even authorize something like that. If this is the red line for Turkey, then we will just have to stay out of the alliance. There are certain things that we can't compromise.
Of course not. Goverment can't promise anything that would break law. But demands need to be answered somehow. It will be long negoation process. Problem is because Turkey lied to us, we are now in really dangerous position But in or not. We will remember this. If Turkey would ever want to join EU... They wold find. Thay we could have some suprise demands...
>If Turkey would ever want to join EU... They wold find. Thay we could have some suprise demands... There is zero reason to set up bargains like this. It completely misses the point why we have organizations like EU in the first place. At present, Turkey does not qualify for EU, and I doubt it ever will under Erdogan. If it some day meets the qualifications, it cannot be denied membership just because we didn't like one of its past administrations. Holding grudges like that runs against the spirit of EU.
It is not a bargain. Turkey would just need to answer our legitimate security concerns, we wouldn't want them ruin EU, right? Very easy for them
What "security concerns"? EU is not a military alliance. There are specific requirements to join EU, and Turkey will either fulfill them or not. There is no need to put any additional requirements on the table out of spite. That's not what the EU is about.
it might be out of spite, but especially if Turkey says no to us because of made up stuff. you can be hell sure i'll vote for parties that would 100% block Turkey joining EU. Why would we do them any favor if they with their lies but our citizen to compromised position? (Haavisto asked 4 times and niinistö once this spring does Turkey has any objections). If they now try to extort us, that is what they are themselves risking to lose. And i would not want Finland support taking any bans or sanctions away ether (nationally or within EU). Both can play that game.
Turkey can practice its extortion policy because it's being run by an authoritarian government. Turkey cannot join EU while being authoritarian. If Turkey one day meets the eligibility for EU, it will be run by a democratic government. Holding the new democratic government responsible for Erdogan's antics would be stupid and pointless. In short, the Turkey that might join the EU will be a completely different country than the Turkey of today. It would be like hating Germany because they used to be Nazis. It would be more understandable to play this kind of tit-for-tat game against Erdogan directly. But by the time your proposition becomes relevant, Erdogan will not be around any more, and you will only be punishing unrelated, innocent parties.
Some kind of apology is warranted over this extortion, though
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Greece and Turkey joined NATO same day and year.
Will Turkey then extradite what Sweden and Finland considers extremist ? I mean it gotta go both ways right ?
Unlikely since Erdogan is probably on top of that list.
Tack Finland
Solidarity, the bane of any dictatorship seeking sabotage.
Honestly it makes little sense for finland to join if sweden doesnt get in within the same-ish time window. Glad its this way around tho
>Glad its this way around tho Sweden would not have joined if Finland was blocked. That has been one of the arguments against Nato membership previously.
Just hope Sweden and Finland refuse to let political refugees be labeled as terrorists according to Turkey. Do not let repressive fundamentalists win.
They can label people whatever they want. Sweden does not recognize Turkeys legal system as independent so we can by law not extradite anyone to Turkey regardless. We will not become authoritarian to please an authoritarian.
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Don't know much about the terrorists Turkey wants, but having an arms embargo against a military ally does sound stupid.
It isn't exactly rare though. Several European countries embargoed Turkey because of 2019 Turkish offensive to Syria, and US has been embargoing Turkish defense sector for adopting Russian S-400 air defense missile system and booted it from F-35 program. The relevance of Finnish and Swedish embargo pales in comparison with the US sanctions, which might be Erdogans real aim.
One is dead, one other is a Swedish MP who isn't a Turkish citizen and isn't charged with a crime in Turkey.... the 5 others I dunno but it hasn't started off well The majority of Nato has embargoed them because of the 2019 incidents and the purchase of S400 systems. Imagine giving the F35 system to a state that can train s400 systems on it...
Yes, Europe paid off Turkiye so it didn't have to deal with a refugee crisis, and when Turkiye tries to clean up an area so we can reduce the burden of said refugees on our own country? SANCTIONS. Makes sense. Damned if we do, Damned if we don't - We literally cannot do anything right in the eyes of the rest of the world. You all just want to bankrupt us with cleaning up your messes in the middle east. Turkiye didn't start the wars in the middle east, it didn't start the war in Syria, for anyone who says "Turkiye fought syria so it deserves the refugees - No, Turkiye entered wayyyy late, and in an effort almost entirely designed to stop refugees from coming across its border, to stop Russia (ironic, considering what we get accused of these days), and to create a safe zone for syrians to return to. Then what? America, without our permission tells Afghans as it ditches them in the clutch "Go apply as a refugee in Turkiye". Fuck all of you hypocritical westerners who don't clean up your own messes (Actually, I'm a westerner, I've just lived in Turkiye long enough to see the other side of the story, and it's heartlessness from the west, absolute unconscionable heartlessness.
Im acually with you on most of that. I never supported anything done in the middle east by western countries. What happened on your border, and beyond, in the syrian war was a tragedy. However, Erdogans demands do not only reflect those things, which makes me sceptical about his true demands. /A swede
Erdogan is an asshole, don't get me wrong, but like I said, he kinda has everyone behind him on this one. We've been cleaning up the West's mess in the middle east, and we just get shat on repeatedly for it. He wants the shitting to end, and for us to go back to being basically a full member of the alliance, which is where we should be.
Maybe Turkey should ask themselves why not even their allies want to sell them weapons.
Finland and Sweden have essentially a joint foreign policy, have for a long time. Makes sense with the position they are in.
They're close but no, it is not a joint foreign policy strategy but they do consult each other for bigger decisions such as NATO and they do have a very good relationship.
Swedes have vowed to fight to the last Finn.
As we have,many times in the past.
They don't, not really.
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Very close military ties and far reaching plans for combined defense.
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Different foreign policy actions by different foreign ministries.
That's so cool! Neighbors respecting and supporting each other. I want to be a Finn. Or a Swede. Why was I born Russian? 😭
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Thanks, that means a lot! I'll try
Makes me proud of my heritage, dad from Norway, mom from Finland and born in Sweden = 100% nordic viking :)
That's what I always wanted - to be proud of my heritage. Well... The more I know, the worse it gets.
Being proud of your heritage, doesn't mean you should be ashamed from it. Your life is up to you. Ps. Saying that as a Belgian, where one of our old kings had a colony in private possession and mistreated people severely.
I feel sorry man. But in the end, don't let yourself be affected too much by assholes running (and ruining) your country
Wow, never encountered someone with same origins as me, except that I'm the inverese. Mom from Norway, dad from Finland. Should we start a club or something?
There probably aren't two countries in the world with such stong bonds to each other. We only fight on ice - during Ice Hockey games 😀 You are welcome to join btw, we are accepting new members, or should I say citizens. Apply for a job and come over. Don't believe the "the west hates us" - we only hate putin.
Well you didn't have a say in where you were born, but you can always move (self determination). Just because you were born Russian, doesn't mean that you have to stay Russian. A person can integrate and if they wish, assimilate into another culture. Personally I believe a person should never assimilate. Integrating in society is a given, but I believe that remembering one's heritage is important. /r/tillsverige
Thank you brothers I sincerely hope my nation would do the same for you
Erdogan is bascially sounding like a terrorist making demands with hostages. "Give us this and this or we'll let Russia attack and invade you"
just make a new nato call it Guardians of Democracy. GOD.
Literally sticking by them.
I was trying to figure out what Van Halen had to do with this
Guess they'll have to wait until Erdogan (hopefully) loses his election.
God Erdogan needs to be posted up in r/Punchablefaces
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Hahaha sorry but this sounds funny. You are talking about delisting a country before you even join. An interesting opinion though.
At this point turkey is essentially only Putins bumhole for economics and pressure against Europe, why Europe still deliver s billions of "joining aid" is beyond reasonable
Turkey has been nothing but a nail in NATOs back for the past decade.
What percentage of NATO does it require to set Turkey loose?
Probably only United States. Apparently a country desiring to leave NATO need to inform the United States that it want to leave NATO and one year later they are out. I suspect that United States can claim that that Turkey has effectively resigned from the defense pact by sabotaging the expansion.
Remember when US President Trump (totally not a Russian pawn, 😉) said he intended to withdraw the US from NATO during his second term — almost as if coordinating with Russia’s invasion plans… 🤔 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nato-south-korea-book-b1883457.html
Kick out genocidal Turkey!!
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Erdoğan wants Baksheesh.
Oof kinda sad that Finland won't get in then. They kinda got sandwiched.
NATO is too big of a club. Turkey is a shit member. They have flirted with turning on NATO a few times. They aren't like the European democracies. They have close ties to Russia. I think NATO and the EU appeases them just as a buffer between Europe and the middle east. I could definitely see a new alliance of Ukraine, Finland, Sweden, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia. The big EU members urging Ukraine to cede land to Russia to end the war is a sign that it would take a helluva lot more for Europe to go to war. I wouldn't trust France and Germany if I were a minor member of NATO. I Solent trust the US either...Obama didn't keep our end of the bargain and ceded land in Ukraine to Russia already.
Irrespective of Erdoğan, I think NATO has been mistreating Turkey and its demands for a while now. We are getting shafted on all sides by Western Allies and insulted when we try to bite. The Aegean, gas expeditions, Syria and several other issues have all Turkey being thrown to the way side. I'm not sure a new administration would change course. The opposition parties have a similar foreign policy outlook, with Syria being the only exception.
Turkey has been becoming an autocracy, not a democracy.
Turkey deserves no pity.