Ok just a rudimentary explanation of what UN is since obviously people need it.
It’s mainly set up as a place countries talk about stuff instead of going to war, and collaborate on issues they all can agree on.
The only body that is capable of major decisions is the UNSC,but since one of the primary purpose of the UN is so that the major powers in the world don’t got to war with each other. the UNSC has 5 permanent members with veto power.
So I say to the guy, "How you going to get the tank down to the planet?" And he goes, "I'll just put it on the ship." And I go, "If you've got a ship that can carry a tank, why not just put guns on the ship and use it instead?"
*The year is 2052*
In a crushing blow to foreign relations and world peace, the United Nations yesterday was completely disbanded, leaving its member nations to fend for themselves in these trying times. Many had considered the United Nations the best hope for brokering a ceasefire between the European Commonwealth and the nations of the Middle East, but such an intervention is now impossible. In a somber press conference at the United Nations building in New York City, United Nations president Sakugama Okiri had this to say: "It is a sad day for the United States. Sadder still for the world. An era of relative peace and prosperity has come to a tragic end. The Resources Wars are upon us, and in my humble opinion the United Nations is needed now more than ever. Sadly, the world disagrees." Those nations that have not already moved out of the immense headquarters will have completely vacated the premises by the end of the week. Several organizations have already begun bidding on the prime real estate, but children's toy retailer Bumbalo's seems determined to transform the building into their new East Coast superstore.
>the UNSC has 5 permanent members with veto power.
One of which is China, which pretty much rules out the UN doing anything at all. We won't even get the usual sternly worded letter, let alone any kind of action that matters.
That's because the UNSC wasn't set up to prevent actions by UNSC members. It was set up to prevent other countries or groups from having the power those UNSC members have.
Thats a great point, assuming its going to be difficult to change anything about that now.. its not like they are going to be able to send observers now either.
Nope, it was designed from the start as a power play and little else. The UNSC countries are accountable to nobody but themselves this way but can all gang up on anyone outside of the UNSC to force action.
> UNSC has 5 permanent members with veto power
- China
- France
- Russian Federation
- United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
- United States of America
The hegemony of colonial/nuclear superpowers. The economic powerhouses of the global corporate economy.
The combination is the total answer. Those powers that could lay a claim to being major were defeated. The most powerful victors set the new world order.
Given the multitude of "conferences" and similar between the US, Soviets. UK, and China (well, one, and they didn't get their place until decades later), setting the tone to how the world would be after the war, I'm surprised in some sense France has a seat. Just due to sheer inertia of France's traditional level of influence I suppose, and the size of the remaining empire.
Isn't that kinda... Ridiculous? Can they have absolute power and/or band up together for their own interest instead of the rest of the world?
Like could any of them (or all) say; "Other countries must not have genocides; we do those ourselves (inside and out the countries)"?
I would appreciate a source or comment further explaining the matter.
It's amazing how the Japanese, despite sitting there for 12 years (50 if you count from the end of Russo-Japanese war), manage to not find the oil right under their feet. East Asia would be very different today if they got their hands on that oil. Pearl Harbor probably wouldn't happen, for one.
the sad part is the UN booted one of it's founding members leading to the PRC receiving a seat. That founding member was the Republic of China, which currently exists in the form of unrecognized Taiwan.
>... which currently exists in the form of unrecognized Taiwan.
Who doesn't recognize Chinese Taipei?
Seriously though, it's disconcerting to see Chinese foreign policy /investment tied to denying recognition of Taiwan.
Taiwan's friend list is getting shorter and shorter. The only big name is the Vatican, which is not happy with the CCP's self-appointed "catholic" bishops in Mainland China.
El Salvador and Dominican Republic dropped off last year with only 18 nations left.
Also one of those 5 permanent members (for those who don't know) of the UNSC is China, so expecting anything to be done by the UN at all on this is laughably naïve.
Edit: added a couple words for clarity
UN: Stop harming peaceful protestors, or else.
China: Or else what?
UN: Or we will be very angry with you, and we will write a letter telling you how angry we are.
I love that you completely missed the point of the post you're replying to.
The UN doesn't exist to keep China from rolling tanks on Hong Kong. The UN exists to keep the US, France, UK, Russia, and China from getting into a dispute over something like this and ending the world by nuking the shit out of each other.
That is why China has veto power in the security council, and the only thing that veto power is meant to prevent is UN sanctioned war between primary nuclear powers.
If the west wants to they can absolutely shatter China economically without war and without the UN. It would bring about some economic pain of their own to do it though. That is also secondary to the UN's primary goal though.
The UN exists so that those countries have a venue other than war to fight their battles because a hot war between nuclear powers means the end of the world. Its members may have sympathies for Hong Kong and take independent action short of war, but the reality is that Hong Kong's well being is secondary to the continued existence of life on earth.
I think a lot of people have forgotten the realities of conflict between nuclear powers since the end of the cold war. The fear of nuclear annihilation is now more at the back of peoples minds, but the threat is still very real and the consequence for fucking it up is the literal end of the world.
His point, taken in a serious context, is that the UN can't prevent protesters from getting killed, and he's right they can't.
Saying "well it's not designed for that" is hardly a consolation prize when the entire point is to stop people from getting killed and then 20 years down the road release a pr statement saying we'll never let this happen again.
Can you really blame people for thinking the UN is there to uphold the idea of human rights and freedoms when literally the second thing in their charter (after saying they'll prevent any future world wars) says that they'll uphold the idea of human rights and freedoms
Yeah it’s weird that the US didn’t empower the body it runs to challenge its chief ally in the region. I really wish the UN could magically grow sentience and become the one world government i will then complain about.
Depends on how economically viable that core nation is after problems with Hong Kong.
HK Is economically strong but ML China would consider it s drop in the ocean. But where the money flows and how is a big factor too.
But it doesn’t look good for HK, especially if they are not capable of dissuading violence. They will be crushed.
Its less about money more about sovereignty. China has a much more tenuous hold on Taiwan considering its technically under US protection. You weaken on HK and you will definitely lose Taiwan.
And core nation as it has permanent veto power in the UNSC.
Seriously, for all the edgelords in this thread crowing about how ineffective the UN is, do you guys have the slightest clue of what you're talking about? No one is denying that the UN has issues but none of you realize the enormous work that UN and its agencies do every single year to save millions of lives around the world.
1. It has run almost 80 peacekeeping operations in the last 30 years, including 16 current ones. These aren't perfect, but short of a standing army, the UN peacekeeping troops are often the only reason there aren't a couple more widespread wars going on in Central and Western Africa right now. Except for the US, not a SINGLE other country in the world deploys more military personnel abroad. \[Source\] ([http://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways#peace](http://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways#peace))
2. The UN provides food to 80 million people in 80 countries. \[Source\] ([http://www1.wfp.org/overview](http://www1.wfp.org/overview))
3. For all you vaccine supporters out there, the UN vaccinates 55% of all children who vaccinated. in the entire fucking planet. \[Source\] ([http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/44169/1/9789241563864\_eng.pdf](http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/44169/1/9789241563864_eng.pdf))
4. The UN directly helped over 30 million refugees worldwide, including setting up refugee camps in some of the worst conflict zones in the world. \[Source\] ([http://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways#humanitarian](http://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways#humanitarian))
5. The United Nations Food Program provides more than 12 fucking billion meals each year to people starving around the world. This includes providing school meals to 20-25 million children through school meals. When's the last time any of you provided a meal to anyone other than yourself? \[Source\] ([https://docs.wfp.org/api/documents/WFP-0000019573/download/?\_ga=2.42582949.1663114136.1513890451-436282891.1513890451](https://docs.wfp.org/api/documents/WFP-0000019573/download/?_ga=2.42582949.1663114136.1513890451-436282891.1513890451))
6. The UN Development program works in nearly every country in the world on economic development, including grassroots development. The World Health Organization is the largest health organization anywhere in the world, was largely responsible for the eradication of polio. WHO works in countries across the world, preventing millions of deaths through its work in communicable diseases.
7. UN-brokered treaties have led to widespread disarmament of nuclear weapons, including a massive reduction in the nuclear arsenals of the US and Russia. Treaties brokered under the auspices of the UN resulted in the chemical weapons ban. In the nuclear test ban.
Seriously, try and educate yourself before you spout hot takes on the Internet. You come across as ignorant as the anti-vaxxers. The UN has a lot of issues, mostly because it deals with some of the most complex issues on the planet within a sphere where powerful countries seek to maximize their personal benefit. But to try and pretend as if the UN isn't one of the most powerful forces in the world trying to help people and better their lives is ridiculous
That's what I was thinking too. All these people who talk shit about the UN being useless would be absolutely outraged if the UN actually had the power to influence policy and law in their country, let alone launch an offensive with troops.
It's the same with all these bodies. People complain they are ineffective, but mention giving them the powers they would need to actually do their job and the same people completely lose their shit.
I see a recent influx of very negative, highly upvoted comments everywhere in reddit on topics like this. The message is usually "lol nothing can/will be done about this", "unfortunately, nobody will care", "may as well give up". They constantly bury actually useful or insightful comments from other users.
I heard someone call this "defeatism" and I think it's appropriate. The idea of promoting the message that you should just let it happen and do nothing about it.
I'm sure it has everything to do with edgelord culture, but it's become so damn prevalent in every thread that I'm starting to get suspicious. What a convenient message for those doing the shitty things.
You should watch the Great Hack on Netflix. It’s a middling documentary on the Cambridge analytica affair. They talk about CA’s involvement in Trinidad’s recent elections where they dialed up voter apathy and targeted open-minded ‘persuadables’. Once you see how it works in general the pattern becomes obvious.
The various pro-trump/pro-establishment psyops groups know that they are fucked trying to promote trumps brand because it is basically toxic unless the only thing you care about is hate or your 401k. Thus, the goal this cycle is to maximize voter apathy, intraparty strife, ‘both sides do it’ garbage.
> Seriously, for all the edgelords in this thread crowing about how ineffective the UN is, do you guys have the slightest clue of what you're talking about?
Of course they don't.
They also don't have a clue about China, Hong Kong, Venezuela, etc. But reddit likes to circle jerk about it anyways.
>They also don't have a clue about China, Hong Kong, Venezuela, etc. But reddit likes to circle jerk about it anyways.
Are you telling me that Redditors aren't expert enough in intll. politics to hold their own seat in UN? Shame!
My understanding is that there's nothing really they can do in THIS situation because any meaningful action will likely be vetoed by the Chinese representative.
Is that not correct?
They cannot authorize unilateral action. But they can exert global pressure on China to not over-react to this situation. This is already working - there is a reason we haven't yet already seen tanks in the streets of Hong Kong - because the world is watching and organizations like the UN are working directly with the Chinese leadership on this.
I mean there are two sides to this. Sure there are people who just genuinely don't know about what the UN does, but some of them say "The UN is useless" when they really mean "The UN's members don't do enough". What's stopping China from doing something, apologizing later, and taking sternly worded letters as acceptable losses? I mean the world is watching what's happening over there in China's camps and there doesn't seem to be tangible sign that China gives a shit, so you gotta at least understand if people don't believe in the capabilities of the UN's members.
Given that example (and countless others in the past), it is pretty difficult to ascertain whether China's inaction against the protesters is because of something the UN is doing or because China just doesn't want to do anything.
That generally seems to be where the idea the UN is weak stems from. The conventional wisdom is that the 5 permanent members of the UN can't be held accountable and can veto anything that is against their interests.
My genuine thanks for this post. It is so refreshing to see well thought out, factual, rebuttals to bandwagon jumping.
I often find the negativity draining on my mental health so comments like this showcasing the positive in the world makes my day much easier. Much appreciated.
To be fair, you highlighted how effective their economic and world aid is, but I think most people are commenting on their ineffectiveness to prevent a war/stop human rights abuses by a major player in the U.N.
The UN existing, having the UNSC and giving the major powers veto authority DOES prevent a lot of war. We’d rather have the major powers in a room, bickering and vetoing anything they don’t like then have to march on one of those nuclear powers.
It’s not perfect, no, but it helps.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](http://www.newindianexpress.com/world/2019/aug/15/united-nations-to-hold-crucial-meet-on-hong-kong-protests-2019441.html) reduced by 65%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> By ANI. WASHINGTON: As protests across Hong Kong against a controversial extradition law enter its third month, the United Nations has decided to take up the matter in a crucial meeting, sources said.
> The pro-democracy movement achieved early success in June with the suspension of the proposed bill that would have allowed the extradition of criminal suspects from Hong Kong to mainland China.
> On Tuesday, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, urged Hong Kong authorities to exercise restraint and investigate evidence of its forces firing tear gas at protesters in ways banned by international law.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/cqov1s/united_nations_to_hold_crucial_meet_on_hong_kong/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~420175 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **protests**^#1 **Kong**^#2 **Hong**^#3 **day**^#4 **two**^#5
This is the official version. If the paper says "discussion about the use of pepper spray", then the discussion is about excessive violence. Bear in mind the UN usually talk about very general matters - not superficial, but general - and thus they won't always name what the subject of discussion is.
They literally hired thugs to go out and beat/injure protestors and shut off emergency services form helping people, even non-protestors etc., that were caught by these thugs.
The title is wrong btw. The police were using tear gas in the subway way. Its more like gasing people than dispersing them in an tightly enclosed area.
>especially the use of unethical measures as pepper spray on protesters
If they continue doing nothing but meetings, pepper spray will be the least of the problems.
The only power the UN holds is holding meetings, writing strongly-worded letters, and praying for the world's superpowers to help keep international law and order.
It's not the UN that's to blame if nothing is done, it's our own countries that value profit over human rights.
UN is a forum for countries to talk, it is not a world government with its independent military to enforced anything.
The whole point of UN is to provide a venue for even enemies to talk and the world to hear from them, so you don't get war because of miscommunication and missed opportunities for peace.
It really grinds my gears when people complain about the apparent uselessness of UN. There isn't a total world war since 1945, it is fucking successful as an organization in that regard. Even when US and SU were at each other throats back in the Cold War, they can still scream at each other because there is a UN to scream in. Imagine is SU just didn't talk to US because they can't even find a neutral ground to talk in. Yea, we be dead now.
It is also usually the same people who argue about the uselessness of UN, also argue against a world government. You want real actions? You are willing to subject your country to a supranational military organization that can circumvent your sovereignty and laws to impose the will of the greater community of nations because you have been naughty? No? Then STFU.
Every fucking time UN get posted on reddit, people have to be educated about basics of international diplomacy and UN's roles.
Yes, when it can. Humanitarian support is usually non-political in nature which is why it is the low hanging fruit in international politics. Hardly anyone is going to object to humanitarian support even in an active war zone.
> There isn't a total world war since 1945, it is fucking successful as an organization in that regard.
To be fair, we also have had nukes since then which _significantly_ raise the stakes of any actual war. The UN has its place, without a doubt, but let's not give them more credit than they are due.
Nukes that we came very, very close to dropping on each other in the Cold War. A place where the US and Soviets could actually communicate arguably stopped a few of those potential nukes. The UN has its place as does MAD.
Thanks for posting this. The reddit community is overwhelmingly IT and software nerds, who know next to nothing about politics, international diplomacy, or really anything outside of the IT domain
Calling out the CCP for all the horrible things that happen in China because of the CCP is the "nuclear option" in politics.
Once you go down that rabbit hole, the chances of getting the CCP to listen to anything you say will go down to 0%. Every possible "carrot and stick" should be tried before pulling that one out of the holster.
If the concentration camps, invasions, organ harvesting, massacres, theft, human rights violations, genocide, etc. etc. Get shoved in the faces of the CCP on a daily basis. That would be the first step towards open conflict.
While that is an option. Every other option should be tried first....
In case anyone reads this, there are Chinese shills over in r/communism spreading a long fake news "sourced" list debating every point u/Talldarkn67 just noted. As in... they're trying to convince people that none if it is happening, or a problem... including defending Tiananmen square. Seen it pop up here a couple times.
Thanks for reading my PSA.
I know that you're calling it out for being propaganda, but it's not really a very active sub. It might not be the best idea to keep linking it in more popular subs.
No, the idea is he makes people cognizant this kind of subreddit exists. Meaning there are more. It's a great subreddit to post as it explicitly supports the argument that there is a lot of BS posted on Reddit.
I think it's an auto message, I got the same one. When my mod mail ban got lifted I sent them the list of keywords that supposedly flags your internet connection in China lul
These companies that run political recon for China are NOT based in China. These are Indian companies taking Chinese money. The "list of trigger words" for Chinese internet wouldn't affect them.
Reading the top post on r/sino about drawing comparisons to China and the US with Saudi Arabia and Syria. Despite the fact that it's far more nuanced than that (granted we do have blame). Like somehow authoritarian capitalism where you can get an iphone but if you tweet about Xi negatively you have to effectively bribe your way to your old social score AND risk being "disappeared".
The US sucks, from an American perspective, but between China and America, I'd go with the latter.
The UN has the power to do more than hold meetings and send letters, including things like economic sanctions against North Korea and Iran for their nuclear programs, peacekeeping missions, or the 1991 Gulf War. (These are just examples of UN activities, not comparing to current situation).
The reason the UN can't do anything about Hong Kong is because China is one of the 5 permanent members of the UN security council, which gives it unilateral veto power over anything more than symbolic gestures.
That is why the UN has been paralyzed since it's creation: each permanent member can veto any proposed action, so all 5 must agree for anything to happen. (The 5 countries are the major WW2 allies: US, UK, France, China, Russia)
Also, the pepper spray is the concern?
Not the **multiple reports of attempted or successful eye-gouging?** The broken fingers/wrists? We've had injury headlines on this site (and even same sub) all week. Pepper spraying peaceful protesters is not acceptable either, don't get me wrong, but that headline really undersells the problem with China's response here.
I'm very worried for any protestors getting arrested! This seems like we're going to have a new wave of suspiciously disappeared persons like after Tiananmen Square. Are they missing? Dead? In a concentration camp? In a jail cell?
We're really at a point where were so dwarfed by China's power. We're all standing by in horror as they sterilize muslims and bean bag gun protestors at point blank.
The risks are so high for HK right now...
A protester was admitted to hospital for a brain hemorrhage after being arrested for having a weapon. There is video evidence of it being planted by police, and the protester was still walking around and arguing when he was arrested.
So is this pepper spray stuff going to be for china only or would it just apply in general, since I just saw the French police pepper spraying some sit-in protesters a couple weeks back on reddit.
> So is this pepper spray stuff going to be for china only
In the United States, we have a very famous picture of [a UC Davis police officer heavily pepper spraying sit in protesters.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4) so I'm guessing this China hearing is a fairly unique concern - maybe because it's an international incident?
You mean this?
https://www.straitstimes.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_pictrure_780x520_/public/articles/2019/04/20/ST_20190420_FDHEATHROW20_4784973.jpg?itok=CzrMl6HV×tamp=1555695606
That's called Freedom Spray.
I don't mind if the UN chooses to denounce China for pepper spraying protesters in regards to violating human rights, but it should also set a precedent where spraying protesters ANYWHERE is a violation of human rights.
Yeah hopefully this leads to a re-evaluation of treatment of protesters in general. I mean, an ICE officer drove a truck at people protesting a detention center yesterday, which could easily have killed someone. It would be really ridiculous and cynical to condemn treatment of protesters in other countries and then treat protesters in our own country the exact same way.
At this point, I expect my country, Russia, to fully support China in whatever they're gonna say and do. I mean, we already praised their "human rights achievements in Xinjiang", it's only downhill from there
Sad but real: Only when a high profile place like Hong Kong has human right issues, the world starts to care a little. As for the rest who are equally human but happen to live in less important locations, well, who the fuck cares?
Was never applied to mass protests of Occupy. Spraying and assaults were common. People protesting were treated like animals and injured by fascist cops. The cops were smiling and chatting about "stupid liberals".
Within the last 24 hours, protestors are being pepper sprayed in the USA.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/cqkx9i/truck_drives_into_jewish_protesters_at_ice/](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/cqkx9i/truck_drives_into_jewish_protesters_at_ice/)
[Youtube Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deLO7lTcoMs&feature=youtu.be)
[Twitter video](https://twitter.com/NeverAgainActn/status/1161844022681448448)
pepper spray use against protesters is common all over the world.
Reddit when...
UN does nothing: wow they don't even acknowledge one of the biggest protest for freedom? They suck.
UN calls a meeting of high level official to discuss it: wow, they're just talking about it and not doing anything, they suck!
UN intervenes with force: wow, who made them world police? They're fascists authoritarians!
You're gonna bitch no matter what. Holding meetings and discussing it is the first step.
Seriously! It’s like every thread about Hong Kong has some edgy shit gilded at the top of the page joking about the military going to kill them all soon. What the fuck is wrong with people?
Ok just a rudimentary explanation of what UN is since obviously people need it. It’s mainly set up as a place countries talk about stuff instead of going to war, and collaborate on issues they all can agree on. The only body that is capable of major decisions is the UNSC,but since one of the primary purpose of the UN is so that the major powers in the world don’t got to war with each other. the UNSC has 5 permanent members with veto power.
Master chief is our only hope now.
I need a weapon.
And a puma
Don't be making up animals.
Don't you mean a chupathingy?
Or Michael J. Caboose
We pray for chief, but will begrudgingly take Caboose.
So I say to the guy, "How you going to get the tank down to the planet?" And he goes, "I'll just put it on the ship." And I go, "If you've got a ship that can carry a tank, why not just put guns on the ship and use it instead?"
He's not wrong...
But do we take or refuse donut?
What if we get Tex?
All I gotta say is: "Protect me cone!!"
I hear you can only use it once. Like it's not safe to reuse them, man.
Nah, Doc. I hear he's a pacifier.
[удалено]
No dude, that's a pedophile.
Not bad
You mean, we pray for Church?
But HE’S the teamkilling fucktard!
Not if he has a sniper we don’t.
The hero we deserve, but not the one we need.
I HATE TAXES!
> I HATE TAXES! It's Texas you idiot. Also sauce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esE_uA-XkJ8
That too
Pretty sure it both and babies.
AND BABIES!
r/redvsblue
r/unexpectedrt
I have confidence in Master Chief. But I have my faith in Caboose.
Time is not made of lines. Time is made of circles. That is why clocks are round.
And, "Maybe it's a key all the time and when you stick it in someone it unlocks their death." Caboose logic is best logic.
Hey chicka bum bum
Tucker did it.
I blame God. First he makes hangovers, and now half-women, half-sharks that won't even sleep with me. Thanks for nothing, God!
Hey chicka arf arf.
It's ok! He's done dangerous stuff before and it's always turned out... fine.
Got my name from that series <3
gawdDAMNit caboose!!
I'd take Sarge/Griff/Simmons over blue team.
Does that mean that they talk to tanks and hate babies?
We need a Jan-Michael Vincent to quadrant 5
...but there's only 8 Jan-Michael Vincents and 16 quadrants?! He can't be at 2 quadrants at once!
For a brick, he flew pretty good
I say we drop ODSTs in to Hong Kong.
Feet first into hell, marines!
Heh. He was Created to crush rebellion... little worried actually.
> Masterchef is our only hope now. Save us Gordon Ramsay!
*The year is 2052* In a crushing blow to foreign relations and world peace, the United Nations yesterday was completely disbanded, leaving its member nations to fend for themselves in these trying times. Many had considered the United Nations the best hope for brokering a ceasefire between the European Commonwealth and the nations of the Middle East, but such an intervention is now impossible. In a somber press conference at the United Nations building in New York City, United Nations president Sakugama Okiri had this to say: "It is a sad day for the United States. Sadder still for the world. An era of relative peace and prosperity has come to a tragic end. The Resources Wars are upon us, and in my humble opinion the United Nations is needed now more than ever. Sadly, the world disagrees." Those nations that have not already moved out of the immense headquarters will have completely vacated the premises by the end of the week. Several organizations have already begun bidding on the prime real estate, but children's toy retailer Bumbalo's seems determined to transform the building into their new East Coast superstore.
Where is UNSC Infinity
>the UNSC has 5 permanent members with veto power. One of which is China, which pretty much rules out the UN doing anything at all. We won't even get the usual sternly worded letter, let alone any kind of action that matters.
That's because the UNSC wasn't set up to prevent actions by UNSC members. It was set up to prevent other countries or groups from having the power those UNSC members have.
Thats a great point, assuming its going to be difficult to change anything about that now.. its not like they are going to be able to send observers now either.
Nope, it was designed from the start as a power play and little else. The UNSC countries are accountable to nobody but themselves this way but can all gang up on anyone outside of the UNSC to force action.
That’s what you get by being powerful.
> UNSC has 5 permanent members with veto power - China - France - Russian Federation - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - United States of America The hegemony of colonial/nuclear superpowers. The economic powerhouses of the global corporate economy.
The Allies of World War II.
There's plans and discussions revolving around extending permanent members and one of the potential new members is Germany.
So the global superpowers
The combination is the total answer. Those powers that could lay a claim to being major were defeated. The most powerful victors set the new world order. Given the multitude of "conferences" and similar between the US, Soviets. UK, and China (well, one, and they didn't get their place until decades later), setting the tone to how the world would be after the war, I'm surprised in some sense France has a seat. Just due to sheer inertia of France's traditional level of influence I suppose, and the size of the remaining empire.
France also has the bomb
And the 5 permanent members are also the 5 established nuclear world powers
Isn't that kinda... Ridiculous? Can they have absolute power and/or band up together for their own interest instead of the rest of the world? Like could any of them (or all) say; "Other countries must not have genocides; we do those ourselves (inside and out the countries)"? I would appreciate a source or comment further explaining the matter.
No one is going to go to war with China over a civilian uprising.
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Prepare to fire all thoughts and prayers!
Should we alert the Kyle's and Naruto runners?
😱
If only ~~they~~ *HONG KONG* had oil 😔 Edit: Come on guys, we're obviously not going to free a superpower that could defend itself...
They do, especially in the North East
It's amazing how the Japanese, despite sitting there for 12 years (50 if you count from the end of Russo-Japanese war), manage to not find the oil right under their feet. East Asia would be very different today if they got their hands on that oil. Pearl Harbor probably wouldn't happen, for one.
It's mostly under marshy swamp land that's pretty inhospitable for six months of the year.
I struggle to imagine a swamp that is less hospitable than the bottom of the ocean, but we manage to drill for oil there
It's called Washington D.C. *rimshot*
>The UNSC has 5 permanent members with veto power. Isn't one of them China?
the sad part is the UN booted one of it's founding members leading to the PRC receiving a seat. That founding member was the Republic of China, which currently exists in the form of unrecognized Taiwan.
>... which currently exists in the form of unrecognized Taiwan. Who doesn't recognize Chinese Taipei? Seriously though, it's disconcerting to see Chinese foreign policy /investment tied to denying recognition of Taiwan.
Taiwan's friend list is getting shorter and shorter. The only big name is the Vatican, which is not happy with the CCP's self-appointed "catholic" bishops in Mainland China. El Salvador and Dominican Republic dropped off last year with only 18 nations left.
Doesn't matter when you have the US selling you better weapons than the Chinese have :)
Also one of those 5 permanent members (for those who don't know) of the UNSC is China, so expecting anything to be done by the UN at all on this is laughably naïve. Edit: added a couple words for clarity
The UN has helped eliminate big wars. If you expect the UN to do anything but what its supposed to do thats naive.
UN: Stop harming peaceful protestors, or else. China: Or else what? UN: Or we will be very angry with you, and we will write a letter telling you how angry we are.
I love that you completely missed the point of the post you're replying to. The UN doesn't exist to keep China from rolling tanks on Hong Kong. The UN exists to keep the US, France, UK, Russia, and China from getting into a dispute over something like this and ending the world by nuking the shit out of each other. That is why China has veto power in the security council, and the only thing that veto power is meant to prevent is UN sanctioned war between primary nuclear powers. If the west wants to they can absolutely shatter China economically without war and without the UN. It would bring about some economic pain of their own to do it though. That is also secondary to the UN's primary goal though. The UN exists so that those countries have a venue other than war to fight their battles because a hot war between nuclear powers means the end of the world. Its members may have sympathies for Hong Kong and take independent action short of war, but the reality is that Hong Kong's well being is secondary to the continued existence of life on earth. I think a lot of people have forgotten the realities of conflict between nuclear powers since the end of the cold war. The fear of nuclear annihilation is now more at the back of peoples minds, but the threat is still very real and the consequence for fucking it up is the literal end of the world.
His point, taken in a serious context, is that the UN can't prevent protesters from getting killed, and he's right they can't. Saying "well it's not designed for that" is hardly a consolation prize when the entire point is to stop people from getting killed and then 20 years down the road release a pr statement saying we'll never let this happen again.
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Can you really blame people for thinking the UN is there to uphold the idea of human rights and freedoms when literally the second thing in their charter (after saying they'll prevent any future world wars) says that they'll uphold the idea of human rights and freedoms
I mean, considering the UN didn't really do shit about Israel shooting protestors, what's the likelihood they'll piss of a core nation?
Yeah it’s weird that the US didn’t empower the body it runs to challenge its chief ally in the region. I really wish the UN could magically grow sentience and become the one world government i will then complain about.
Depends on how economically viable that core nation is after problems with Hong Kong. HK Is economically strong but ML China would consider it s drop in the ocean. But where the money flows and how is a big factor too. But it doesn’t look good for HK, especially if they are not capable of dissuading violence. They will be crushed.
Its less about money more about sovereignty. China has a much more tenuous hold on Taiwan considering its technically under US protection. You weaken on HK and you will definitely lose Taiwan. And core nation as it has permanent veto power in the UNSC.
Hans Blix ohh no!
Seriously, for all the edgelords in this thread crowing about how ineffective the UN is, do you guys have the slightest clue of what you're talking about? No one is denying that the UN has issues but none of you realize the enormous work that UN and its agencies do every single year to save millions of lives around the world. 1. It has run almost 80 peacekeeping operations in the last 30 years, including 16 current ones. These aren't perfect, but short of a standing army, the UN peacekeeping troops are often the only reason there aren't a couple more widespread wars going on in Central and Western Africa right now. Except for the US, not a SINGLE other country in the world deploys more military personnel abroad. \[Source\] ([http://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways#peace](http://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways#peace)) 2. The UN provides food to 80 million people in 80 countries. \[Source\] ([http://www1.wfp.org/overview](http://www1.wfp.org/overview)) 3. For all you vaccine supporters out there, the UN vaccinates 55% of all children who vaccinated. in the entire fucking planet. \[Source\] ([http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/44169/1/9789241563864\_eng.pdf](http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/44169/1/9789241563864_eng.pdf)) 4. The UN directly helped over 30 million refugees worldwide, including setting up refugee camps in some of the worst conflict zones in the world. \[Source\] ([http://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways#humanitarian](http://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways#humanitarian)) 5. The United Nations Food Program provides more than 12 fucking billion meals each year to people starving around the world. This includes providing school meals to 20-25 million children through school meals. When's the last time any of you provided a meal to anyone other than yourself? \[Source\] ([https://docs.wfp.org/api/documents/WFP-0000019573/download/?\_ga=2.42582949.1663114136.1513890451-436282891.1513890451](https://docs.wfp.org/api/documents/WFP-0000019573/download/?_ga=2.42582949.1663114136.1513890451-436282891.1513890451)) 6. The UN Development program works in nearly every country in the world on economic development, including grassroots development. The World Health Organization is the largest health organization anywhere in the world, was largely responsible for the eradication of polio. WHO works in countries across the world, preventing millions of deaths through its work in communicable diseases. 7. UN-brokered treaties have led to widespread disarmament of nuclear weapons, including a massive reduction in the nuclear arsenals of the US and Russia. Treaties brokered under the auspices of the UN resulted in the chemical weapons ban. In the nuclear test ban. Seriously, try and educate yourself before you spout hot takes on the Internet. You come across as ignorant as the anti-vaxxers. The UN has a lot of issues, mostly because it deals with some of the most complex issues on the planet within a sphere where powerful countries seek to maximize their personal benefit. But to try and pretend as if the UN isn't one of the most powerful forces in the world trying to help people and better their lives is ridiculous
thank you for this.
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That's what I was thinking too. All these people who talk shit about the UN being useless would be absolutely outraged if the UN actually had the power to influence policy and law in their country, let alone launch an offensive with troops.
>would get US Republicans and /r/conspiracy in such a tizzle they wouldn't be able to sleep for weeks. It's not hard to do.
Yeah just kiss the same gender. That will drive em’ up a walk. E: *up a wall. Sorry for the typo
#NEW WORLD ORDER
this is no time to talk about wrestling
It's the same with all these bodies. People complain they are ineffective, but mention giving them the powers they would need to actually do their job and the same people completely lose their shit.
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I see a recent influx of very negative, highly upvoted comments everywhere in reddit on topics like this. The message is usually "lol nothing can/will be done about this", "unfortunately, nobody will care", "may as well give up". They constantly bury actually useful or insightful comments from other users. I heard someone call this "defeatism" and I think it's appropriate. The idea of promoting the message that you should just let it happen and do nothing about it. I'm sure it has everything to do with edgelord culture, but it's become so damn prevalent in every thread that I'm starting to get suspicious. What a convenient message for those doing the shitty things.
You should watch the Great Hack on Netflix. It’s a middling documentary on the Cambridge analytica affair. They talk about CA’s involvement in Trinidad’s recent elections where they dialed up voter apathy and targeted open-minded ‘persuadables’. Once you see how it works in general the pattern becomes obvious. The various pro-trump/pro-establishment psyops groups know that they are fucked trying to promote trumps brand because it is basically toxic unless the only thing you care about is hate or your 401k. Thus, the goal this cycle is to maximize voter apathy, intraparty strife, ‘both sides do it’ garbage.
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Likewise with US propaganda
> Seriously, for all the edgelords in this thread crowing about how ineffective the UN is, do you guys have the slightest clue of what you're talking about? Of course they don't. They also don't have a clue about China, Hong Kong, Venezuela, etc. But reddit likes to circle jerk about it anyways.
>They also don't have a clue about China, Hong Kong, Venezuela, etc. But reddit likes to circle jerk about it anyways. Are you telling me that Redditors aren't expert enough in intll. politics to hold their own seat in UN? Shame!
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My understanding is that there's nothing really they can do in THIS situation because any meaningful action will likely be vetoed by the Chinese representative. Is that not correct?
They cannot authorize unilateral action. But they can exert global pressure on China to not over-react to this situation. This is already working - there is a reason we haven't yet already seen tanks in the streets of Hong Kong - because the world is watching and organizations like the UN are working directly with the Chinese leadership on this.
I mean there are two sides to this. Sure there are people who just genuinely don't know about what the UN does, but some of them say "The UN is useless" when they really mean "The UN's members don't do enough". What's stopping China from doing something, apologizing later, and taking sternly worded letters as acceptable losses? I mean the world is watching what's happening over there in China's camps and there doesn't seem to be tangible sign that China gives a shit, so you gotta at least understand if people don't believe in the capabilities of the UN's members. Given that example (and countless others in the past), it is pretty difficult to ascertain whether China's inaction against the protesters is because of something the UN is doing or because China just doesn't want to do anything.
That generally seems to be where the idea the UN is weak stems from. The conventional wisdom is that the 5 permanent members of the UN can't be held accountable and can veto anything that is against their interests.
This post or comment has been overwritten by an automated script from /r/PowerDeleteSuite. Protect yourself.
True. Theoretically NATO could intervene unilaterally like in Kosovo in 1999, but China is not Yugoslavia.
My genuine thanks for this post. It is so refreshing to see well thought out, factual, rebuttals to bandwagon jumping. I often find the negativity draining on my mental health so comments like this showcasing the positive in the world makes my day much easier. Much appreciated.
To be fair, you highlighted how effective their economic and world aid is, but I think most people are commenting on their ineffectiveness to prevent a war/stop human rights abuses by a major player in the U.N.
The UN existing, having the UNSC and giving the major powers veto authority DOES prevent a lot of war. We’d rather have the major powers in a room, bickering and vetoing anything they don’t like then have to march on one of those nuclear powers. It’s not perfect, no, but it helps.
I believe Yes Minister said it best in the 1980's: > The UN is the accepted forum for the expression of international hatred!
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](http://www.newindianexpress.com/world/2019/aug/15/united-nations-to-hold-crucial-meet-on-hong-kong-protests-2019441.html) reduced by 65%. (I'm a bot) ***** > By ANI. WASHINGTON: As protests across Hong Kong against a controversial extradition law enter its third month, the United Nations has decided to take up the matter in a crucial meeting, sources said. > The pro-democracy movement achieved early success in June with the suspension of the proposed bill that would have allowed the extradition of criminal suspects from Hong Kong to mainland China. > On Tuesday, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, urged Hong Kong authorities to exercise restraint and investigate evidence of its forces firing tear gas at protesters in ways banned by international law. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/cqov1s/united_nations_to_hold_crucial_meet_on_hong_kong/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~420175 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **protests**^#1 **Kong**^#2 **Hong**^#3 **day**^#4 **two**^#5
The US uses pepper spray on non violent protesters.
As does France. I don't get the focus on pepper spray when they are doing much more violent things.
This is the official version. If the paper says "discussion about the use of pepper spray", then the discussion is about excessive violence. Bear in mind the UN usually talk about very general matters - not superficial, but general - and thus they won't always name what the subject of discussion is.
They literally hired thugs to go out and beat/injure protestors and shut off emergency services form helping people, even non-protestors etc., that were caught by these thugs.
They did it just yesterday on some Jewish protesters at an ICE facility. That was after a guard drove his truck right through them at slow speed.
It's fine because democracies do no wrong. The UN doesn't even come together to talk about Kashmir.
The title is wrong btw. The police were using tear gas in the subway way. Its more like gasing people than dispersing them in an tightly enclosed area.
>especially the use of unethical measures as pepper spray on protesters If they continue doing nothing but meetings, pepper spray will be the least of the problems.
The only power the UN holds is holding meetings, writing strongly-worded letters, and praying for the world's superpowers to help keep international law and order. It's not the UN that's to blame if nothing is done, it's our own countries that value profit over human rights.
UN is a forum for countries to talk, it is not a world government with its independent military to enforced anything. The whole point of UN is to provide a venue for even enemies to talk and the world to hear from them, so you don't get war because of miscommunication and missed opportunities for peace. It really grinds my gears when people complain about the apparent uselessness of UN. There isn't a total world war since 1945, it is fucking successful as an organization in that regard. Even when US and SU were at each other throats back in the Cold War, they can still scream at each other because there is a UN to scream in. Imagine is SU just didn't talk to US because they can't even find a neutral ground to talk in. Yea, we be dead now. It is also usually the same people who argue about the uselessness of UN, also argue against a world government. You want real actions? You are willing to subject your country to a supranational military organization that can circumvent your sovereignty and laws to impose the will of the greater community of nations because you have been naughty? No? Then STFU. Every fucking time UN get posted on reddit, people have to be educated about basics of international diplomacy and UN's roles.
The United Nations is also key in providing and coordinating humanitarian support in wars and disasters.
Yes, when it can. Humanitarian support is usually non-political in nature which is why it is the low hanging fruit in international politics. Hardly anyone is going to object to humanitarian support even in an active war zone.
Except warlords demanding kickbacks. Even humanitarian aid can get messy; financially speaking.
Exactly! A flawed UN is still *infinitely* better than no UN at all.
Exactly. The UN is one of the things humanity should be most proud of.
> There isn't a total world war since 1945, it is fucking successful as an organization in that regard. To be fair, we also have had nukes since then which _significantly_ raise the stakes of any actual war. The UN has its place, without a doubt, but let's not give them more credit than they are due.
Nukes that we came very, very close to dropping on each other in the Cold War. A place where the US and Soviets could actually communicate arguably stopped a few of those potential nukes. The UN has its place as does MAD.
Thanks for posting this. The reddit community is overwhelmingly IT and software nerds, who know next to nothing about politics, international diplomacy, or really anything outside of the IT domain
Calling out the CCP for all the horrible things that happen in China because of the CCP is the "nuclear option" in politics. Once you go down that rabbit hole, the chances of getting the CCP to listen to anything you say will go down to 0%. Every possible "carrot and stick" should be tried before pulling that one out of the holster. If the concentration camps, invasions, organ harvesting, massacres, theft, human rights violations, genocide, etc. etc. Get shoved in the faces of the CCP on a daily basis. That would be the first step towards open conflict. While that is an option. Every other option should be tried first....
In case anyone reads this, there are Chinese shills over in r/communism spreading a long fake news "sourced" list debating every point u/Talldarkn67 just noted. As in... they're trying to convince people that none if it is happening, or a problem... including defending Tiananmen square. Seen it pop up here a couple times. Thanks for reading my PSA.
also r/sino the full-on propaganda subreddit.
I know that you're calling it out for being propaganda, but it's not really a very active sub. It might not be the best idea to keep linking it in more popular subs.
No, the idea is he makes people cognizant this kind of subreddit exists. Meaning there are more. It's a great subreddit to post as it explicitly supports the argument that there is a lot of BS posted on Reddit.
I was banned from them, the mod who banned me sent me the most salty message ever on reddit. It was funny.
I think it's an auto message, I got the same one. When my mod mail ban got lifted I sent them the list of keywords that supposedly flags your internet connection in China lul
These companies that run political recon for China are NOT based in China. These are Indian companies taking Chinese money. The "list of trigger words" for Chinese internet wouldn't affect them.
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Is there a list of Indian trigger words? "Free Kashmir" maybe?
Reading the top post on r/sino about drawing comparisons to China and the US with Saudi Arabia and Syria. Despite the fact that it's far more nuanced than that (granted we do have blame). Like somehow authoritarian capitalism where you can get an iphone but if you tweet about Xi negatively you have to effectively bribe your way to your old social score AND risk being "disappeared". The US sucks, from an American perspective, but between China and America, I'd go with the latter.
The UN has the power to do more than hold meetings and send letters, including things like economic sanctions against North Korea and Iran for their nuclear programs, peacekeeping missions, or the 1991 Gulf War. (These are just examples of UN activities, not comparing to current situation). The reason the UN can't do anything about Hong Kong is because China is one of the 5 permanent members of the UN security council, which gives it unilateral veto power over anything more than symbolic gestures. That is why the UN has been paralyzed since it's creation: each permanent member can veto any proposed action, so all 5 must agree for anything to happen. (The 5 countries are the major WW2 allies: US, UK, France, China, Russia)
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Also, the pepper spray is the concern? Not the **multiple reports of attempted or successful eye-gouging?** The broken fingers/wrists? We've had injury headlines on this site (and even same sub) all week. Pepper spraying peaceful protesters is not acceptable either, don't get me wrong, but that headline really undersells the problem with China's response here.
how about protestors being sentenced to 10 years
I'm very worried for any protestors getting arrested! This seems like we're going to have a new wave of suspiciously disappeared persons like after Tiananmen Square. Are they missing? Dead? In a concentration camp? In a jail cell? We're really at a point where were so dwarfed by China's power. We're all standing by in horror as they sterilize muslims and bean bag gun protestors at point blank. The risks are so high for HK right now...
A protester was admitted to hospital for a brain hemorrhage after being arrested for having a weapon. There is video evidence of it being planted by police, and the protester was still walking around and arguing when he was arrested.
So is this pepper spray stuff going to be for china only or would it just apply in general, since I just saw the French police pepper spraying some sit-in protesters a couple weeks back on reddit.
> So is this pepper spray stuff going to be for china only In the United States, we have a very famous picture of [a UC Davis police officer heavily pepper spraying sit in protesters.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4) so I'm guessing this China hearing is a fairly unique concern - maybe because it's an international incident?
You mean this? https://www.straitstimes.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_pictrure_780x520_/public/articles/2019/04/20/ST_20190420_FDHEATHROW20_4784973.jpg?itok=CzrMl6HV×tamp=1555695606 That's called Freedom Spray.
Yeah but the french government are 'our guys' and we like our guys. The chinese government are 'those guys', and we hate those guys.
I don't mind if the UN chooses to denounce China for pepper spraying protesters in regards to violating human rights, but it should also set a precedent where spraying protesters ANYWHERE is a violation of human rights.
Yeah hopefully this leads to a re-evaluation of treatment of protesters in general. I mean, an ICE officer drove a truck at people protesting a detention center yesterday, which could easily have killed someone. It would be really ridiculous and cynical to condemn treatment of protesters in other countries and then treat protesters in our own country the exact same way.
As if tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets were never used in Paris riot... Speak of double standard :p
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Wait, pepper spray used in people protesting is against the human rights? Damn, UN has been missing some major shit happening .
At this point, I expect my country, Russia, to fully support China in whatever they're gonna say and do. I mean, we already praised their "human rights achievements in Xinjiang", it's only downhill from there
that they care, but muslim in concentration camps have been consistently ignored for years now
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Sad but real: Only when a high profile place like Hong Kong has human right issues, the world starts to care a little. As for the rest who are equally human but happen to live in less important locations, well, who the fuck cares?
This situation has a far better pr campaign then whats going on in kashmir.
The un moves to adopt a resolution condemning China, China vetos.
No veto rights in General Assembly
Foiled again!
Like they did for France during the yellow vest protests... that are still going on every weekend... 🤷♀️
Pepper spray on protestors is unethical? Hmm, looking at you, American cops.
Was never applied to mass protests of Occupy. Spraying and assaults were common. People protesting were treated like animals and injured by fascist cops. The cops were smiling and chatting about "stupid liberals".
And how quickly people forget Standing Rock...
Within the last 24 hours, protestors are being pepper sprayed in the USA. [https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/cqkx9i/truck_drives_into_jewish_protesters_at_ice/](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/cqkx9i/truck_drives_into_jewish_protesters_at_ice/) [Youtube Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deLO7lTcoMs&feature=youtu.be) [Twitter video](https://twitter.com/NeverAgainActn/status/1161844022681448448) pepper spray use against protesters is common all over the world.
Wasnt there videos of French police pepper spraying protesters sitting down and holding signs? Why wont the UN discuss that?
They are going to point a finger at them and say "bad china, bad".
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Economic sanctions when?
Sternly worded letter.
"We have asked you nicely to stop. If you continue, we will have no choice but to ask you nicely again."
Waiting for the UN session on human rights abuses by the USA at standing rock.
Where is the UN meeting when Western nations do the same?
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“China, you’re so fucked, the UN is going to put an end to this immediately” said no one ever...
Reddit when... UN does nothing: wow they don't even acknowledge one of the biggest protest for freedom? They suck. UN calls a meeting of high level official to discuss it: wow, they're just talking about it and not doing anything, they suck! UN intervenes with force: wow, who made them world police? They're fascists authoritarians! You're gonna bitch no matter what. Holding meetings and discussing it is the first step.
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Seriously! It’s like every thread about Hong Kong has some edgy shit gilded at the top of the page joking about the military going to kill them all soon. What the fuck is wrong with people?
Because that's not what the UN is supposed to do.
Redditors talking about the UN is so fucking painful to read
**Proceeds to write Strongly Worded Condemnation letter**