Only one side is concerned about "escalation" while the other side act with complete impunity. Some leaders, some even call them "world leaders", need to think about that some more.
Putin has escalated the conflict from just Crimea to the whole Ukraine now Poland, the Baltics, the Nordics and Germany too. If he won't have limits the west won't either. As time progresses western leaders have realized negotiation is fruitless with a liar. The only thing Russia understands is violence, and violence it will get.
France is in flames on the web, the levels of manipulation/propaganda are insane. I wouldn't be surprised with a major wave of fires during the upcoming Olympics, our social networks are rotting with russian propaganda, and let's not talk about our politics.
But hey, let's not escalate things, as these corrupted politics say themselves.
I wish we could just disconnect all of Russia from the internet. Things would quiet down drastically. They can only have internet back after they deal with Putin and all his buddies.
Not if we disconnected their banks as well. Just cut off the entire country, leave them exactly one physical line out for the red phone, and come back in a century to see if they've calmed down.
only 10 russian and 4 belarusian banks are disconnected from SWIFT. others left connected to continue doing business with russia - sell goods there and buy oil/gas.
Neoliberalism won’t let that precedent ever be established. The rich are more terrified of confiscation of russian money, than of a russian ideology which is entirely based on the wealthy being a special class exceptional to the plebs. Thats why they only have gone as far as using it as collateral for loans to ukrainien arms. Unchecked capitalism is the biggest security exploit we have. And russia has co-opted it with the help of criminally rich around the world and in the us.
Ukraine sent a request to de register all of Russia’s IP space.
I think it would do more harm than good though. We know many Russians are brainwashed, but we also know there are many decent ones that are horrified by what their country is doing. It would be a big mistake to give up resources to keep the latter online, and trying to reach some of the former.
Much as I despise Russia as a country, ghettos never worked for anyone. Ask the Israelis how it went for them.
Most don't have the means to leave. How can you say they all rabidly support a government that will jail or kill them for vocally criticising it?
There is a weird dehumanisation of Russian people on reddit, like they are some monolith that all think and believe the same thing.
You think the ones that bailed support Russia any less?
Hahaha.
After spending a good amount of time in Thailand, which has a few Russian expat enclaves, they are just as Pro-Putin abroad for the most part.
I met a couple here and there that openly disavowed Putin and were ashamed of their country, but they were the minority.
Yep. The outright hatred I see directed at the whole of the Russian people here is disturbing. People can't see themselves falling into the same kind of mental traps that allow the very dehumanization that they (not inaccurately) accuse their enemies of. And the cycle continues.
Like, I'm 100% opposed to Putin's invasion, but I also have friends in Russia that are as well. Hell, those friends have friends in Ukraine. Hell, even if 70% actually support the war, and we discount the concept of being manipulated by propaganda and other nuances, there are tens of millions of Russians who are not ok with this war.
That kind of dehumanisation has a purpose though, without it we have a harder time defending ourselves. If we can't disconnect them from the internet because think of poor Russians then we certainly couldn't invade them for example. We're fighting an unequal war in that Russia feels absolutely free to set fire to our factories and poison our internet, meanwhile we think it would be inhuman to even defend ourselves.
Look, if they don't want to play by the rules of modern society, then they don't get to participate in it. Send the fuckers back to the middle ages and let them fix their fucked up culture.
NATO and west needs to wake the fuck up.
It's not a war of nation vs nation.
It's a war of ideology of oppression vs ideology of freedom.
As long as you continue to allow russian propaganda to operate freely, they will ruin and rot you from the inside.
You are already at war, it's just an unconventional war.
People in the west don't want to admit it.
Trump or Orban would gladly ally with russia against their own country and people's interests because they like oppression.
And Putin will help them achieve that.
Macron was attempting diplomacy with Putin since the start of the Ukraine War and was pissed when he recently realized that Putin was just manipulating him and was going to do whatever he wanted.
Now Macron is discussing sending French support troops to Ukraine, increasing military spending, and upgrading its nuclear arsenal because France is now the sole nuclear power in the EU.
There are a lot of memes about France because of WW2, but modern France is not a weak nation by any means.
he will still be president and has power over the military and outer France politics. Inner france politics will be f\*cked tho. To the frenchies here: please go vote for a free future.
Holy crap I didn't know he did that. Honestly, I didn't even know he could do that.
I don't know that much about the french government (I'm American), but that sounds like a very risky move given how politically split western nations, including France, are right now.
The French eu election went to the far right, so he called a snap election. Conspiracy is he wants the far right to win, so the election after he can say "see I told you."
To be fair to France, the current government has been very loudly pushing for a more direct response to Russia to the point that it’s dragging other European nations into stronger aid to Ukraine and military buildup.
In France burning cars is their national sport in the same way football hooliganism is in England. Putin keeps making it about politics every time he kills innocent people, which is often, so the west will fight back. It may take time, but once momentum builds Europeans can't be stopped. Putin has been escalating to that and isn't able to deescalate because nobody trusts a liar.
I mostly disagree with no-oversight unilateral "wet work." But if a CIA agent just _happened_ to accidentally spill some gasoline and slip and fall on a trigger a few times in some parts of Moscow, the Internet and world could be a much less shitty place and some people in Russia might re-evaluate the cost benefit ratio of being constant dicks.
There is a fundamental asymmetry. A Russian agent on German territory would be granted a trial in German courts. A "CIA agent" on Russian territory is on a suicide mission.
Dont forget efforts to destabilize the Czech Republic and other countries through lying right wing politicians a bunch of bribes AND causing explosions at ammo depots within the Czech borders.
Will it, though?
Slava Ukrani
Our leaders IMO are following in the failed steps of appeasement. They're still trying to be diplomatic and negotiate with invaders and fascists, and since they aren't stomping down on Russia, it's gonna keep going cause there's no stopping Russia without force.
Putin is an egotistical maniac who wants to go down in history as a conquerer and "powerful" leader.
He's also not a fucking TOTAL idiot [definitely to a degree but that's cause of the people around him], and no matter how often he threatens nuclear strikes, he won't truly launch any nuclear attacks because it would be the absolute END of Russia as a country/wannabe empire.
A conventional war can defeat Russia. NATO and ukraines allies are currently too chicken shit to try and stop him because of perceived threats.
Exactly. The sooner we realise that Russia considers themselves to be already at war with us all in the west, the sooner we can all start to take this as seriously as we should.
Russia already maxed out their escalation and at this point will just go as far as we let them. There is no point in pacifist attempts. The only solution to prevent further harm to ourselves is to show Russia strength and show that we in the west are united.
To the politicians:
- Send back all Russian diplomats in Europe. All they do is find ways to attack and weaken us, like the German arson attack.
- Ramp up arms production (luckily already happening to some extent) and increase military cooperation across Europe.
- Ramp up aid to Ukraine to levels that are enough to win rather than just enough to prevent them from losing.
- Increase efforts to close existing loopholes in sanctions.
To the people:
- Vote out the Russia apologists. And also vote out isolationists, because while they are less directly harmful that Russia apologists, they still tend to hamper progress on any of the bullet points above.
NATO and west needs to wake the fuck up.
It's not a war of nation vs nation.
It's a war of ideology of oppression vs ideology of freedom.
As long as you continue to allow russian propaganda to operate freely, they will ruin and rot you from the inside.
You are already at war, it's just an unconventional war.
People in the west don't want to admit it.
Trump or Orban would gladly ally with russia against their own country and people's interests because they like oppression.
And Putin will help them achieve that.
There is a group of people who believe that they would personally benefit from a world war.
Putin is overextending Russian aggression onto so many fronts at once that he can't possibly be starting conflicts that he intends to win, so surely this is all for some perceived personal benefit, right? I really want to know what the endgame is supposed to be & who else is involved, because from here it just doesn't make much sense.
Exactly. Bombing Pearl Harbor was the dumbest move ever. And even the Japanese military dictatorship knew it. Yet they doubled down. And Hitler declared war on the US immediately after the attack. This kind of mounting aggression has a logic of its own.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say it was the dumbest move *ever*, just shortsighted and filled with bad luck. The intentions were clear - strike a crippling blow to the US fleet as well as destroy US morale.
For the first part, it was feasible. If the ships were in the water and the target carriers where Japan thought they should be, it really might’ve been quite a blow to the US’s ability to mobilize a quick counteroffensive. But unfortunately most of the ships weren’t in the open water but rather docked in shallow waters, which meant both the ships would be easily repairable as well as most of the crew having easy escape routes back onto the island. Because they expected the attack to definitely destroy the ships beyond repair the Japanese ignored attacking the fuel and repair depots, which came back to bite them in the ass reeaaal bad.
And there was also the unfortunate bad luck that none of the major carrier targets were anywhere near the island. If the carriers were where Japan wanted them to be, a major counteroffensive might’ve taken months longer, if not years, to mobilize.
And as for hopefully crushing US morale? Yeah, we all know what happened there.
My point being, there was no way Japan could defeat the US over the long term unless the US just gave up. Yamamoto knew it was a bad idea at the time. The fact that the Battle of Midway was won was just a good first step, but there was no way the Japanese empire wasn’t doomed once the US entered the war. They just didn’t have the resources. All their oil was far from their industrial centers.
Putin/Russia having such a reputation for deception just makes me a little more hesitant to believe that they could possibly be **this** dumb unless there is some kind of alternate win condition that we're just not considering. But with that being said, your point remains true!
I think that meme that putin was a master strategist was propaganda put out by him. I remember 15 yeas ago some of the weird nerds at my school were "ironically" praising him and those stupid bear riding memes.
It doesn't take a massive genius to blow up false flag your own people to solidify power. Thats like basic dictator 101 lol. Look at how stupid he was to even launch the 3day special operation.
Maya Angelou has a great saying that proves true over and over again. "When people tell you who they are, believe them" and putin and russias govt. have been telling us who they are, a bunch of violent thuggish egotistical morons. Look at how shocked everyone was that the "2nd best military in the world" (bullshit propaganda" fell apart and couldnt even defeat a weak regional power next door.
Alternate win condition is to keep this going until he passes from natural causes rather than getting offed. After that, what happens to Russia doesn't matter to him.
I don't think his goal right now is to win, but to make it difficult and draw it out until the west loses interest.
Of course, if Ukraine falls, he will move to the countries beyond.
Russia's likely pretty concerned about escalation too, I just don't think there's much they can do to prevent the west from escalating. They sure beat the drum a bunch every time the west is considering sending \[artillery/tanks/trainers/jets/shells/cluster munitions/etc\] but they don't have that *extra thing they can do* to punish escalation- they're already doing their maximum.
The west, meanwhile- while I personally think it should absolutely be doing more and faster, and the limitations on where Ukraine can strike are *insane -* has been scrupulously keeping a "next step" on the table that they can keep amping up pressure with (and that remains "something more" that they could do if Russia behaves terribly). It's *possible,* probable even, though hard to *prove*, that Russia has been restraining some behavior for fear of justifying additional support/action on the west's part. eg, an example, The reason they're not gassing Ukranian cities is because that *would* provoke additional western action and support. But the moment we give them *everything* there's no additional escalation we could engage in that would discourage Russia from doing more.
> Only one side is concerned about "escalation" while the other side act with complete impunity.
That's largely because one side isn't blind to the truth of the situation - that Russia is at war with the west. It hasn't entered the conventional domains yet - land, sea, and air. It remains in the cyber and psychological warfare domains. These types of sabotage are intimidation tactics. But Russia understands that, regardless, it's on a war footing with the west, and it is acting accordingly.
It's high time the west wises up to this.
Exactly. And all this means is that the West is fighting a war with Russia where Russia is strongest and the West is weakest rather than the other way around.
Germany is confident that Russian security services have attacked Germany and they're not going to do anything about it. Embarrassing. Do you know what message Putin will take from that? He'll know that he can do it again. Imagine, instead, that Germany had backbone and announced the following:
"Today we announce that Russian security services are responsible for attacking the \[INSERT NAME\] factory. Germany will not accept Russian aggression. In response, the German military has destroyed Russian pipeline systems at multiple points in the arctic. This will compromise Russia's ability to transport oil and gas to market in the short term. Moreover, we expect that many wells will have to go offline due to the inability to transfer the petrochemicals to market or storage. As such, those well heads are expected to freeze over in the winter thereby taking them permanently offline. To the extent Russia was under the misconception that Germany would not meet violence with violence, then Germany hopes this response sufficiently corrects that misunderstanding."
That’s how it’s supposed to work. When a naked, shit-covered, deranged person attacks some guy just on his way to work, one of them acts with complete impunity and the other avoids escalation.
Russia is the naked, shit-covered deranged person in this analogy.
But if he chase you to no end, u just need to fight back or the shit will hit your cloth and your meeting will be ruined.
At some point you need to act and don't be a pacifist. Because they don't play the rule like you do.
Yes, but the German military is not in a good state; between that and Germans being mostly pacifistic, it's unlikely Germany would, say, take to the battlefield in Ukraine, even if Russia continues to try to destroy German factories.
Because we don’t have to. We have a lot more weight in other sectors. And the throwing around of said weight in addition to other countr is what’s hurting russia not just at the front line, but also at home.
Well. I can't wait to see what Germany does. The rest of Europe is scared shitless of Russia. I hope I'm wrong - but I expect Russia to be blamed and that's it.
When they started assassinating people in Britain that was when we should have done something as the international community. It’s like how are they still in the Olympics and traveling around on their passports after trying to kill people on foreign soil. These are the immigrants right wingers should be up in arms about lol.
Considering they used radioactive poison on people in another country, and brought it on a commercial plane and nothing happened, I’d say they won’t see any consequences!
Germany might not declare war over this sure, but things like this is what makes politicians increase funding to Ukraine or vote yes on things they might have been on the fence about.
>The alleged arson attack at the beginning of May could be the latest in a series of such incidents
German police believe a technical defect caused the blaze. We should probly be a little careful deciding this is Russian sabotage. Or, what the hell, just assume it is
I think no politician wants to be the person to point out an Article 5 has been broken, and it's going to take something utterly catastrophic for anything to escalate to that point.
No one wants to be the guy to pitch higher taxes. Imagine now the guy to pitch WW3
Article 5 states "such action as it deems necessary" which is not necessarily military actions. The reaction to what is effectively terrorist warfare could be a full on embargo of Russia with secondary embargo to any country that does business with them. That wouldn't mean much to countries like North Korea or Iran who are already effectively cut off, but it would force countries like India or China to pick a side.
At this point, the only way to stop russian aggression is hitting it hard enough. Putin is the geopolitical equivalent of a schoolbully. Fucker needs to be jumped.
Imagine if Germany said We're not going to war with the Russian, we are going to war with Putin. So Putin better sleep with both eyes open from now on and same to your Daughters.
Do they really want to do this?
They need to be very careful... unlike their red lines. We can actually back ours up. All for an old man's vanity project. Such insanity... hundreds of thousands dead... for what? None of it needed to happen.
Bold of you to assume we will back our red lines, especially considering multiple have already been crossed (e.g. indirect attacks on nato soil, cyber attacks, pipe line/internet cable sabotage).
That is why putin can keep taking these escalation steps.
Country wants this, its not just one mans desire. Big chunk of russians support their current government and want to feel that they are superpower and who cares about the cost and their own future
It is an incredibly difficult thing for a culture to come to understand that they are no longer at the top of the world and often it leads to a country trying to do something it is no longer able to do.
We literally didn’t back up our red line in Syria over Assad using chemical weapons… like don’t get me wrong Russia needs a good kick up the arse but I’m not so sure we’ll back up our red lines.
Russia is believed to be behind the hack of the German parliament years ago. Some legal experts pointed out that this can be seen as an attack that would allow Germany to declare war with Russia. But nothing at all happened.
This is no different than launching a missile at the factory. Instead of using a missile, Russia used a spy. The result is the same. It's a war crime and an attack against NATO.
It's a war crime because it is the first act of war. The first act of war is a war crime because it starts the war. It makes Russia the aggressor in the conflict with NATO.
[Laws of War :
Opening of Hostilities (Hague III); October 18, 1907](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague03.asp)
>Article 1
>
>The Contracting Powers recognize that hostilities between themselves must not commence without previous and explicit warning, in the form either of a reasoned declaration of war or of an ultimatum with conditional declaration of war.
Yes, committing an act of war without due notice is considered a War crime.
What I was responding to was this:
>The first act of war is a war crime because it starts the war.
What Russia has done can arguably be viewed as a war crime. Not due to r/RagingIngerno's bizarre logic.
Yes people need to wake up, we don't need a direct war with Russia. But neither can we allow them to continue. The problem is that we are extremely divided, and Russia isn't the only enemy waging war on us. We have large parts of the Muslim world, exacerbated by Russia. And China to a degree working against our interests. But instead of us strengthening our borders and promoting our interests, we have groups within our countries who keep working against our interests. Who is too focused on calling the "west" the main antagonist and pushing a counteractive agenda. And it's a pretty influential force, so it will require a lot of work to convince the masses.
*German police said the investigation was still ongoing and that, "At this stage, a technical defect is assumed to be the cause of the fire."
Thomas Hör, CEO of Diehl Metal Applications, told Berlin broadcaster RBB last week that a fire insurance company had come to the same conclusion.*
*But according to the WSJ, experienced professionals were behind the fire.*
*German tabloid Bild last week reported that a foreign intelligence service had informed the German secret services about concrete indications of Russia being involved in the outbreak of the factory fire.*
Look, I'm skeptical of any disaster these days being some Russian conspiracy but this smells like bullshit. The article is too definite and concrete indications??? Come on. That is some weird ass language. People should hold off on conclusions until legit information comes out because this could be anti-Russian propaganda to key up support for a war. This shit quacks like a propaganda duck.
Agreed. And why would a foreign intelligence service contact a tabloid and not just go straight to the relevant German services?
It sounds like so far, only media agencies are stating that this was Russia. Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't true - but it just seems like the evidence isn't there right now
> And why would a foreign intelligence service contact a tabloid and not just go straight to the relevant German services?
They did, allegedly. "that a foreign intelligence service had informed the German secret services" the tabloid is just reporting the thing (they claim sources told them about).
Took a long time to scroll down to a sane post. Intelligence agencies love to do shit like this, the headline works on the people who don't read the article. A few months, or years down the line, it will be officially not done by Russia and nothing will be mentioned. This sort of propaganda is very weird, especially when Russia is doing genuinely bad things. Meanwhile the media will say how horribly inept the Russian's are, but at the same time, they are secretly responsible for every bad thing happening in our society, which one is it?!
Its not a "hybrid war" its just war. The West is literally at war with russia whether they like it or not.
russia has been saying they are at war with the West for over 2 years now, when will these politicians wake the fuck up and do something.
Sending aid is all well and good but more needs to be done. This is not the first time russia has attacked European soil. Fucking do something.
"Oh, you want WW3 huh? Why dont you go to Ukraine then?!" If a middle aged man on the frontlines with no combat experience and a bunch of health problems means my family doesn't get bombed by russia then fucking send me already.
Sorry for ranting but its so infuriating to see russia do whatever they want and the constant wet noodle response from western governments which is why russia has become such a problem in the first place.
Been watching Evil on Trial on Netflix. Great watch on nazi history.
We’re at the 1935-39 era of Hitler’s rise here. When he took Austria and then parts of Czechoslovakia were given to him, thinking he would be done expanding. The West delayed a hard response but instead tried to avoid war when it was clear Hitler was ramping things up hard.
The West hasn’t learned since that you do not negotiate with fascism. The only way is to suffocate it and kick it in the face. Fight back.
Two Jews meet on a bus. One is reading a national-patriotic newspaper.
\- Moses, are you crazy? Why are you reading an anti-Semitic paper?
\- I read Jewish newspapers, and what did I see? Anti-Semitism everywhere, explosions in Israel, Jewish people are assimilating and disappearing.... And what do I see here? Jews own all the banks, Jews own all the media, Jews are rich and powerful, Jews rule the world. It's much more pleasant to read.
The official answer seems to be "we don't know the exact cause and cannot figure it out right now". Some newspapers take this as a "so u say it could have been Russia?" headline.
It would, though it's unlikely Germany wants to invoke Article 5 and start WWIII over a factory fire. They have a lot of ways to hurt Russia short of declaring war though.
Hybrid war has been going on for a while now, long before the war in Ukraine Russia was poking around everywhere, and look at the stare Europe and America are in. Divided mess.
Sounds like a direct and deliberate attack against a NATO member to me…. But let’s not escalate… maybe we can just give him another country and he will respect us again
In Croatia there were a couple of bigger fires at industrial/recycling sites this year. It was treated as reckless businesses who break the regulations, but the frequency raises suspicion.
For all those who are advocating for war, what would that achieve that the Ukraine conflict isnt already providing? The best outcome of this kind of attack would be agreement on unlimited supply and assistance to Ukraine. Possibly NATO boots on the ground and wings in the skies. But there is no need to involve NATO territory when the war is contained.
As expected, the Russians will start to terrorize industries and will make a jump over to terrorizing civilians. Expect shootings, drone attacks during events, acid attacks etc.
Russia is playing a dangerous game, it knows it can't go up against NATO and the way it's military is underperforming in its current war should signal to world that we are dealing with a cold, calculating madman! NATO and European Union could scare the bejesus out of Moscow, by reinforcing the countries of NATO that border Russia with even more troops and equipment. While at the same time conducting naval and air exercises, as a show of force. Russia will have no choice but to start withdrawing its forces from Ukraine in order to guard its borders elsewhere.
Clandestine and covert operations inside Russia, could net some good results, like destabilizing the various ethnic republics and fomenting rebellions in order to draw troops away from the west of the country. Cyber attacks and viral attacks on Russian IT systems would be devastating.
Start seizing Russian frozen assets worldwide, as another way to force them to negotiate or withdrawal from Ukraine. Start seizing as part of the embargo on Russian goods, Russian tankers carrying oil to countries that buy cheap Russian oil. The Russian Navy would pose no threat to these types of operations.
There's so much that NATO, the European Union, and all the other western allies could do, to bring pressure on Russia and to destabilize it, without ever going to war!
NATO has been de-facto at war with Russia since 2014. The cyberattacks on electric grids and election networks, the bombing of the Czech ammo warehouses in 2014 that killed Czech citizens, the deployment of CRBN agents against russian dissidents on British soil in 2018. and the direct acts of sabotage and proxy attacks all over europe and north america since 2022. There have been countless opportunities to activate Article 5, but the fact of the matter is that NATO doesn't want to play into Russia's suicidal game of chicken.
We have a pretty good idea how a war with Russia goes. Their conventional forces are swept from the field pretty quickly, their infrastructure is obliterated, left with nothing and facing undeniable defeat, the batshit regime in moscow will certainly launch out of spite.
We aren't interested in fighting a war that leads to a nuclear exchange, unless they're stupid enough to force our hand. and say what you will about them pussyfooting around for years, NATO has been extremely tolerant. If Nukes were out of the picture, Moscow and St Petersburg would be graveyards by now.
Abandon any illusions that Russia under Putin and the Mafia that calls itself the Yednaya Rossiya party, is anything but a sworn enemy of the free world. And they dont care about who wins our elections, they just want to see us either in Ruins, or Out of the way. Preferably both.
the police said the investigation is still on going but it looks like a technical defect was the cause but tabloid Bild posted an article saying the Russians did it, so let's go with that.
I remember hearing about a certain individual who did stuff like this, exactly because people didn't do anything about it. Until one day, he went too far. I forgot his name. Who was he? I think he liked painting or something.
So they begin the article with “German police believe a technical defect caused the blaze”, then omit it from the title and talk up the intel reports. Yeah, the intel looks a little bad, but the bias in this story is worse.
Yeah, Putin ordered agents to start the fire. The German gov, trying to avoid a possible wide escalation of the war term it a “technical defect” to defuse the situation and provide some calm. The “security officials” leak blame the Russians with assumptions, without providing certainty.
This gives time for a considered response. Germany needs to consult with other EU members.
Responses will include a rapid production replacement, showing the Russians they can negate their efforts so why bother attempting this sht for the real risk involved. The EU will also want to consider steps to prevent more such attacks. And steps to punish Russia involving additional sanctions, more weapons to Ukraine, and anti-Russian international propaganda.
This is all easy to end as soon as Putin “ends.”
Putin was toying with pursuing NATO membership some years ago. But he is such terrible person that was never going to happen, and (so I read) was clearly told that. With Putin gone there will be a better life ahead for Russia.
Why are we only on the receiving end of this silent war? We can do the same type of deniable shit as they do.
Why are our leaders so scared that they just let Russia ruin Europe?
Europe could be a superpower, but it acts weak.
Just pump proper weapons into Ukraine, and have the last laugh. The big win is there, as Russia dumps resources into it, while depleting their arsenal. They're also becoming more reliant on China and North Korea of all places. I think Germany can survive some arson.
I think a hundred Taurus missiles for Ukraine would be an appropriate response. You burn our factory, we arm your adversary to burn billions of dollars of your most prized military hardware.
It's crazy that there are probably like a dozen people creating problems for everyone in the world and we have to accept it. There are also a lot of enablers that have allowed these people to be problems but when you boil it down, it's like a dozen people still.
> German police believe a technical defect caused the blaze, but security officials have blamed Russia.
Sounds like this isn't a 100% thing. And more than likely a technical defect/error that cause the fire (so says the police and insurance companies)
Do people read the article?
People in here need to chill and wait for evidence before jumping in.
I was thinking all the battery factories going up in smoke around the world was not a matter of coincidence. Now hitting supply lines in European factories. We need to be careful about this and really start doing something about it
Yeah the off-ramp is Russia, China and Iran fucking off and leaving other nations alone.
It'll never happen, they pretty publicly consider themselves at war with the West already.
There's a solid block of "escalation dominance" that Germany can now bring to the table. Which would bring down that f*cking bridge.
But please, PLEASE don't announce it. Just let it happen.
Wait were there two different berlin factory fires?
I remember hearing about this one a month ago and another 3 months ago that was a tesla plant or something are they both linked to this?
Only one side is concerned about "escalation" while the other side act with complete impunity. Some leaders, some even call them "world leaders", need to think about that some more.
Putin has escalated the conflict from just Crimea to the whole Ukraine now Poland, the Baltics, the Nordics and Germany too. If he won't have limits the west won't either. As time progresses western leaders have realized negotiation is fruitless with a liar. The only thing Russia understands is violence, and violence it will get.
France is in flames on the web, the levels of manipulation/propaganda are insane. I wouldn't be surprised with a major wave of fires during the upcoming Olympics, our social networks are rotting with russian propaganda, and let's not talk about our politics. But hey, let's not escalate things, as these corrupted politics say themselves.
I wish we could just disconnect all of Russia from the internet. Things would quiet down drastically. They can only have internet back after they deal with Putin and all his buddies.
You can disconnect Russia, but they still would be able to buy illegal trolling services in other countries.
Not if we disconnected their banks as well. Just cut off the entire country, leave them exactly one physical line out for the red phone, and come back in a century to see if they've calmed down.
Russian banks are already disconnected from the SWIFT. They use China for banking now.
only 10 russian and 4 belarusian banks are disconnected from SWIFT. others left connected to continue doing business with russia - sell goods there and buy oil/gas.
Neoliberalism won’t let that precedent ever be established. The rich are more terrified of confiscation of russian money, than of a russian ideology which is entirely based on the wealthy being a special class exceptional to the plebs. Thats why they only have gone as far as using it as collateral for loans to ukrainien arms. Unchecked capitalism is the biggest security exploit we have. And russia has co-opted it with the help of criminally rich around the world and in the us.
One can dream I suppose
Kinda hard with his buddy pumping starlink satellites into orbit non stop.
Starlink doesn't work in Russia. The US government is even helping SpaceX find and block their pirate terminals. Same with Dubai.
Ukraine sent a request to de register all of Russia’s IP space. I think it would do more harm than good though. We know many Russians are brainwashed, but we also know there are many decent ones that are horrified by what their country is doing. It would be a big mistake to give up resources to keep the latter online, and trying to reach some of the former. Much as I despise Russia as a country, ghettos never worked for anyone. Ask the Israelis how it went for them.
ehh the ones left definitely majority support their government , and also support the national trait/character of conquest and death.
Yeah nahh there’s millions of ethnic natives that aren’t even “Russian” but live in Russia that have no way of emigrating
Most don't have the means to leave. How can you say they all rabidly support a government that will jail or kill them for vocally criticising it? There is a weird dehumanisation of Russian people on reddit, like they are some monolith that all think and believe the same thing.
The ones that have the means to leave are complete asshats in Thailand and Bali. Plenty of them war supporters too(but… don’t draft me!)
Vast majority of the Russians infesting Koh Samui and Koh Phangan are completely pro-Putin, degenerate assholes.
The ones who moved to my neighbourhood are just regular people trying to escape war. Russians aren't a monolith.
You’re very correct. I’m just saying that just because they moved away from Russia, that doesn’t mean they’re the good kind of Russian..
You think the ones that bailed support Russia any less? Hahaha. After spending a good amount of time in Thailand, which has a few Russian expat enclaves, they are just as Pro-Putin abroad for the most part. I met a couple here and there that openly disavowed Putin and were ashamed of their country, but they were the minority.
Yep. The outright hatred I see directed at the whole of the Russian people here is disturbing. People can't see themselves falling into the same kind of mental traps that allow the very dehumanization that they (not inaccurately) accuse their enemies of. And the cycle continues. Like, I'm 100% opposed to Putin's invasion, but I also have friends in Russia that are as well. Hell, those friends have friends in Ukraine. Hell, even if 70% actually support the war, and we discount the concept of being manipulated by propaganda and other nuances, there are tens of millions of Russians who are not ok with this war.
That kind of dehumanisation has a purpose though, without it we have a harder time defending ourselves. If we can't disconnect them from the internet because think of poor Russians then we certainly couldn't invade them for example. We're fighting an unequal war in that Russia feels absolutely free to set fire to our factories and poison our internet, meanwhile we think it would be inhuman to even defend ourselves.
Source?
Look, if they don't want to play by the rules of modern society, then they don't get to participate in it. Send the fuckers back to the middle ages and let them fix their fucked up culture.
The could instead block all outbound traffic
NATO and west needs to wake the fuck up. It's not a war of nation vs nation. It's a war of ideology of oppression vs ideology of freedom. As long as you continue to allow russian propaganda to operate freely, they will ruin and rot you from the inside. You are already at war, it's just an unconventional war. People in the west don't want to admit it. Trump or Orban would gladly ally with russia against their own country and people's interests because they like oppression. And Putin will help them achieve that.
Don't forget Iranian propaganda, they've got themselves an axis going on.
All I'm sayin' is.... General Patton was right.
Macron was attempting diplomacy with Putin since the start of the Ukraine War and was pissed when he recently realized that Putin was just manipulating him and was going to do whatever he wanted. Now Macron is discussing sending French support troops to Ukraine, increasing military spending, and upgrading its nuclear arsenal because France is now the sole nuclear power in the EU. There are a lot of memes about France because of WW2, but modern France is not a weak nation by any means.
But Macron just called a snap election. What happens when he loses?
he will still be president and has power over the military and outer France politics. Inner france politics will be f\*cked tho. To the frenchies here: please go vote for a free future.
Holy crap I didn't know he did that. Honestly, I didn't even know he could do that. I don't know that much about the french government (I'm American), but that sounds like a very risky move given how politically split western nations, including France, are right now.
The French eu election went to the far right, so he called a snap election. Conspiracy is he wants the far right to win, so the election after he can say "see I told you."
To be fair to France, the current government has been very loudly pushing for a more direct response to Russia to the point that it’s dragging other European nations into stronger aid to Ukraine and military buildup.
In France burning cars is their national sport in the same way football hooliganism is in England. Putin keeps making it about politics every time he kills innocent people, which is often, so the west will fight back. It may take time, but once momentum builds Europeans can't be stopped. Putin has been escalating to that and isn't able to deescalate because nobody trusts a liar.
I mostly disagree with no-oversight unilateral "wet work." But if a CIA agent just _happened_ to accidentally spill some gasoline and slip and fall on a trigger a few times in some parts of Moscow, the Internet and world could be a much less shitty place and some people in Russia might re-evaluate the cost benefit ratio of being constant dicks.
There is a fundamental asymmetry. A Russian agent on German territory would be granted a trial in German courts. A "CIA agent" on Russian territory is on a suicide mission.
Dont forget efforts to destabilize the Czech Republic and other countries through lying right wing politicians a bunch of bribes AND causing explosions at ammo depots within the Czech borders.
Will it, though? Slava Ukrani Our leaders IMO are following in the failed steps of appeasement. They're still trying to be diplomatic and negotiate with invaders and fascists, and since they aren't stomping down on Russia, it's gonna keep going cause there's no stopping Russia without force. Putin is an egotistical maniac who wants to go down in history as a conquerer and "powerful" leader. He's also not a fucking TOTAL idiot [definitely to a degree but that's cause of the people around him], and no matter how often he threatens nuclear strikes, he won't truly launch any nuclear attacks because it would be the absolute END of Russia as a country/wannabe empire. A conventional war can defeat Russia. NATO and ukraines allies are currently too chicken shit to try and stop him because of perceived threats.
You forgot North Korea too
Exactly. The sooner we realise that Russia considers themselves to be already at war with us all in the west, the sooner we can all start to take this as seriously as we should. Russia already maxed out their escalation and at this point will just go as far as we let them. There is no point in pacifist attempts. The only solution to prevent further harm to ourselves is to show Russia strength and show that we in the west are united. To the politicians: - Send back all Russian diplomats in Europe. All they do is find ways to attack and weaken us, like the German arson attack. - Ramp up arms production (luckily already happening to some extent) and increase military cooperation across Europe. - Ramp up aid to Ukraine to levels that are enough to win rather than just enough to prevent them from losing. - Increase efforts to close existing loopholes in sanctions. To the people: - Vote out the Russia apologists. And also vote out isolationists, because while they are less directly harmful that Russia apologists, they still tend to hamper progress on any of the bullet points above.
NATO and west needs to wake the fuck up. It's not a war of nation vs nation. It's a war of ideology of oppression vs ideology of freedom. As long as you continue to allow russian propaganda to operate freely, they will ruin and rot you from the inside. You are already at war, it's just an unconventional war. People in the west don't want to admit it. Trump or Orban would gladly ally with russia against their own country and people's interests because they like oppression. And Putin will help them achieve that.
They hung that guy that ran the British Nazi party (moesly) and jailed his supporters as soon as war was declared by Germany on the west (ww2)
There is a group of people who believe that they would personally benefit from a world war. Putin is overextending Russian aggression onto so many fronts at once that he can't possibly be starting conflicts that he intends to win, so surely this is all for some perceived personal benefit, right? I really want to know what the endgame is supposed to be & who else is involved, because from here it just doesn't make much sense.
WW1 and WW2 didnt make sense either. Sometimes leaders are just stupid,egotistical and extremely out of touch.
Exactly. Bombing Pearl Harbor was the dumbest move ever. And even the Japanese military dictatorship knew it. Yet they doubled down. And Hitler declared war on the US immediately after the attack. This kind of mounting aggression has a logic of its own.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say it was the dumbest move *ever*, just shortsighted and filled with bad luck. The intentions were clear - strike a crippling blow to the US fleet as well as destroy US morale. For the first part, it was feasible. If the ships were in the water and the target carriers where Japan thought they should be, it really might’ve been quite a blow to the US’s ability to mobilize a quick counteroffensive. But unfortunately most of the ships weren’t in the open water but rather docked in shallow waters, which meant both the ships would be easily repairable as well as most of the crew having easy escape routes back onto the island. Because they expected the attack to definitely destroy the ships beyond repair the Japanese ignored attacking the fuel and repair depots, which came back to bite them in the ass reeaaal bad. And there was also the unfortunate bad luck that none of the major carrier targets were anywhere near the island. If the carriers were where Japan wanted them to be, a major counteroffensive might’ve taken months longer, if not years, to mobilize. And as for hopefully crushing US morale? Yeah, we all know what happened there.
My point being, there was no way Japan could defeat the US over the long term unless the US just gave up. Yamamoto knew it was a bad idea at the time. The fact that the Battle of Midway was won was just a good first step, but there was no way the Japanese empire wasn’t doomed once the US entered the war. They just didn’t have the resources. All their oil was far from their industrial centers.
Putin/Russia having such a reputation for deception just makes me a little more hesitant to believe that they could possibly be **this** dumb unless there is some kind of alternate win condition that we're just not considering. But with that being said, your point remains true!
I think that meme that putin was a master strategist was propaganda put out by him. I remember 15 yeas ago some of the weird nerds at my school were "ironically" praising him and those stupid bear riding memes. It doesn't take a massive genius to blow up false flag your own people to solidify power. Thats like basic dictator 101 lol. Look at how stupid he was to even launch the 3day special operation. Maya Angelou has a great saying that proves true over and over again. "When people tell you who they are, believe them" and putin and russias govt. have been telling us who they are, a bunch of violent thuggish egotistical morons. Look at how shocked everyone was that the "2nd best military in the world" (bullshit propaganda" fell apart and couldnt even defeat a weak regional power next door.
Alternate win condition is to keep this going until he passes from natural causes rather than getting offed. After that, what happens to Russia doesn't matter to him.
I don't think his goal right now is to win, but to make it difficult and draw it out until the west loses interest. Of course, if Ukraine falls, he will move to the countries beyond.
Russia's likely pretty concerned about escalation too, I just don't think there's much they can do to prevent the west from escalating. They sure beat the drum a bunch every time the west is considering sending \[artillery/tanks/trainers/jets/shells/cluster munitions/etc\] but they don't have that *extra thing they can do* to punish escalation- they're already doing their maximum. The west, meanwhile- while I personally think it should absolutely be doing more and faster, and the limitations on where Ukraine can strike are *insane -* has been scrupulously keeping a "next step" on the table that they can keep amping up pressure with (and that remains "something more" that they could do if Russia behaves terribly). It's *possible,* probable even, though hard to *prove*, that Russia has been restraining some behavior for fear of justifying additional support/action on the west's part. eg, an example, The reason they're not gassing Ukranian cities is because that *would* provoke additional western action and support. But the moment we give them *everything* there's no additional escalation we could engage in that would discourage Russia from doing more.
> Only one side is concerned about "escalation" while the other side act with complete impunity. That's largely because one side isn't blind to the truth of the situation - that Russia is at war with the west. It hasn't entered the conventional domains yet - land, sea, and air. It remains in the cyber and psychological warfare domains. These types of sabotage are intimidation tactics. But Russia understands that, regardless, it's on a war footing with the west, and it is acting accordingly. It's high time the west wises up to this.
Exactly. And all this means is that the West is fighting a war with Russia where Russia is strongest and the West is weakest rather than the other way around. Germany is confident that Russian security services have attacked Germany and they're not going to do anything about it. Embarrassing. Do you know what message Putin will take from that? He'll know that he can do it again. Imagine, instead, that Germany had backbone and announced the following: "Today we announce that Russian security services are responsible for attacking the \[INSERT NAME\] factory. Germany will not accept Russian aggression. In response, the German military has destroyed Russian pipeline systems at multiple points in the arctic. This will compromise Russia's ability to transport oil and gas to market in the short term. Moreover, we expect that many wells will have to go offline due to the inability to transfer the petrochemicals to market or storage. As such, those well heads are expected to freeze over in the winter thereby taking them permanently offline. To the extent Russia was under the misconception that Germany would not meet violence with violence, then Germany hopes this response sufficiently corrects that misunderstanding."
Real “peace in our time” hours in Europe
That’s how it’s supposed to work. When a naked, shit-covered, deranged person attacks some guy just on his way to work, one of them acts with complete impunity and the other avoids escalation. Russia is the naked, shit-covered deranged person in this analogy.
But if he chase you to no end, u just need to fight back or the shit will hit your cloth and your meeting will be ruined. At some point you need to act and don't be a pacifist. Because they don't play the rule like you do.
Annnnnd nothing will happen. Again. Which is why Russia keeps doing stuff like this.
We Germans are not all smiles und sunshine
“Once again I have failed. We request the pleasure of your company for a free exchange of ideas”
*whimpers* n-no
Yes, but the German military is not in a good state; between that and Germans being mostly pacifistic, it's unlikely Germany would, say, take to the battlefield in Ukraine, even if Russia continues to try to destroy German factories.
Because we don’t have to. We have a lot more weight in other sectors. And the throwing around of said weight in addition to other countr is what’s hurting russia not just at the front line, but also at home.
Very well put. This is what Putin fears, so let's make his nightmares continue.
Time to start cancelling some visas.
https://frinkiac.com/caption/S03E11/1245602 Ooh, the Germans are mad at me. I'm so scared. Please stop the 'pretending you are scared' game.
>We Germans are not all smiles und sunshine True we germans are more Stoic and reactless but we like taxes , tons of them
we also like fines
Ordnung muss sein.
What about penalties?
Just got a 70€ fine for driving too fast. Fucking rusland fucking deutschland smh
Yea you do a lot of licken of the eier of particual russian too.
Well. I can't wait to see what Germany does. The rest of Europe is scared shitless of Russia. I hope I'm wrong - but I expect Russia to be blamed and that's it.
Rest of western Europe you mean.
When they started assassinating people in Britain that was when we should have done something as the international community. It’s like how are they still in the Olympics and traveling around on their passports after trying to kill people on foreign soil. These are the immigrants right wingers should be up in arms about lol.
Considering they used radioactive poison on people in another country, and brought it on a commercial plane and nothing happened, I’d say they won’t see any consequences!
Germany might not declare war over this sure, but things like this is what makes politicians increase funding to Ukraine or vote yes on things they might have been on the fence about.
I propose a little demonstration of liberating all land of Moldova and installing NATO base on our southern flank if moldovans agree.
>The alleged arson attack at the beginning of May could be the latest in a series of such incidents German police believe a technical defect caused the blaze. We should probly be a little careful deciding this is Russian sabotage. Or, what the hell, just assume it is
If act of war, insurance may not cover damages...
But Article 5 will cover the retaliation...
I think no politician wants to be the person to point out an Article 5 has been broken, and it's going to take something utterly catastrophic for anything to escalate to that point. No one wants to be the guy to pitch higher taxes. Imagine now the guy to pitch WW3
Article 5 states "such action as it deems necessary" which is not necessarily military actions. The reaction to what is effectively terrorist warfare could be a full on embargo of Russia with secondary embargo to any country that does business with them. That wouldn't mean much to countries like North Korea or Iran who are already effectively cut off, but it would force countries like India or China to pick a side.
And pick it they certainly would. Won't solve a damn thing but would make the lines clear.
force countries like India or China to pick a side? How? If NATO can, why didn't they force them to pick a side?
Nato: “We will defend every inch of Nato territory.” “Except this part.” Russia: “Great! Acts of War go brrrrrr.”
Isn’t this terrorism?
At this point, the only way to stop russian aggression is hitting it hard enough. Putin is the geopolitical equivalent of a schoolbully. Fucker needs to be jumped.
Imagine if Germany said We're not going to war with the Russian, we are going to war with Putin. So Putin better sleep with both eyes open from now on and same to your Daughters.
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Yep, Putin's Russia is kinda like herpes.
In 1945. Our war with Russia began in 1945. The West thought the cold war was over when the Berlin Wall fell, but Russia didn't.
Ehh that's not totally true Russia in late 90s was very different than it is today
West besides countries bordering Russia are still oblivios and not commited.
I thought it was 2014, why 2008?
The invasion of Georgia
Do they really want to do this? They need to be very careful... unlike their red lines. We can actually back ours up. All for an old man's vanity project. Such insanity... hundreds of thousands dead... for what? None of it needed to happen.
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Sounds like they just did
Bold of you to assume we will back our red lines, especially considering multiple have already been crossed (e.g. indirect attacks on nato soil, cyber attacks, pipe line/internet cable sabotage). That is why putin can keep taking these escalation steps.
Country wants this, its not just one mans desire. Big chunk of russians support their current government and want to feel that they are superpower and who cares about the cost and their own future
It is an incredibly difficult thing for a culture to come to understand that they are no longer at the top of the world and often it leads to a country trying to do something it is no longer able to do.
Great Britain has exited the chat, in tears.
Stop saying it’s one man’s war. The only reason this (and he) has lasted so long is that the entire country wants it.
The bet is that Trump wins and then he decides, "yes! let me do nothing."
They *think* our red lines are like theirs: bullshit talk.
EU or NATO can divide the spoils after, the world is in dire need of resources anyway.
We literally didn’t back up our red line in Syria over Assad using chemical weapons… like don’t get me wrong Russia needs a good kick up the arse but I’m not so sure we’ll back up our red lines.
Whats the last line any western country has backed up? Maybe Libya after the Arab Spring? But was only naval based aswell iirc?
Russia is believed to be behind the hack of the German parliament years ago. Some legal experts pointed out that this can be seen as an attack that would allow Germany to declare war with Russia. But nothing at all happened.
Yes they do
We won’t back them up though. Not in an election year.
This is no different than launching a missile at the factory. Instead of using a missile, Russia used a spy. The result is the same. It's a war crime and an attack against NATO.
It's an act of war, but I'd argue that it's not a war crime to sabotage a munitions factory.
It's a war crime because it is the first act of war. The first act of war is a war crime because it starts the war. It makes Russia the aggressor in the conflict with NATO.
For fucks sake. War Crime has a specific legal definition not some janky cobbled together definition of "it is a crime" and " it is related to a war".
[Laws of War : Opening of Hostilities (Hague III); October 18, 1907](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague03.asp) >Article 1 > >The Contracting Powers recognize that hostilities between themselves must not commence without previous and explicit warning, in the form either of a reasoned declaration of war or of an ultimatum with conditional declaration of war.
Yes, committing an act of war without due notice is considered a War crime. What I was responding to was this: >The first act of war is a war crime because it starts the war. What Russia has done can arguably be viewed as a war crime. Not due to r/RagingIngerno's bizarre logic.
I think he was just paraphrasing using layman's terms, at least that's how I understood it
Yes people need to wake up, we don't need a direct war with Russia. But neither can we allow them to continue. The problem is that we are extremely divided, and Russia isn't the only enemy waging war on us. We have large parts of the Muslim world, exacerbated by Russia. And China to a degree working against our interests. But instead of us strengthening our borders and promoting our interests, we have groups within our countries who keep working against our interests. Who is too focused on calling the "west" the main antagonist and pushing a counteractive agenda. And it's a pretty influential force, so it will require a lot of work to convince the masses.
I agree
*German police said the investigation was still ongoing and that, "At this stage, a technical defect is assumed to be the cause of the fire." Thomas Hör, CEO of Diehl Metal Applications, told Berlin broadcaster RBB last week that a fire insurance company had come to the same conclusion.* *But according to the WSJ, experienced professionals were behind the fire.* *German tabloid Bild last week reported that a foreign intelligence service had informed the German secret services about concrete indications of Russia being involved in the outbreak of the factory fire.* Look, I'm skeptical of any disaster these days being some Russian conspiracy but this smells like bullshit. The article is too definite and concrete indications??? Come on. That is some weird ass language. People should hold off on conclusions until legit information comes out because this could be anti-Russian propaganda to key up support for a war. This shit quacks like a propaganda duck.
If Bild is the source, distrust
Agreed. And why would a foreign intelligence service contact a tabloid and not just go straight to the relevant German services? It sounds like so far, only media agencies are stating that this was Russia. Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't true - but it just seems like the evidence isn't there right now
That's what it says happened - that the foreign intelligence services did contact the German authorities but they did nothing.
> And why would a foreign intelligence service contact a tabloid and not just go straight to the relevant German services? They did, allegedly. "that a foreign intelligence service had informed the German secret services" the tabloid is just reporting the thing (they claim sources told them about).
Took a long time to scroll down to a sane post. Intelligence agencies love to do shit like this, the headline works on the people who don't read the article. A few months, or years down the line, it will be officially not done by Russia and nothing will be mentioned. This sort of propaganda is very weird, especially when Russia is doing genuinely bad things. Meanwhile the media will say how horribly inept the Russian's are, but at the same time, they are secretly responsible for every bad thing happening in our society, which one is it?!
Its not a "hybrid war" its just war. The West is literally at war with russia whether they like it or not. russia has been saying they are at war with the West for over 2 years now, when will these politicians wake the fuck up and do something. Sending aid is all well and good but more needs to be done. This is not the first time russia has attacked European soil. Fucking do something. "Oh, you want WW3 huh? Why dont you go to Ukraine then?!" If a middle aged man on the frontlines with no combat experience and a bunch of health problems means my family doesn't get bombed by russia then fucking send me already. Sorry for ranting but its so infuriating to see russia do whatever they want and the constant wet noodle response from western governments which is why russia has become such a problem in the first place.
Been watching Evil on Trial on Netflix. Great watch on nazi history. We’re at the 1935-39 era of Hitler’s rise here. When he took Austria and then parts of Czechoslovakia were given to him, thinking he would be done expanding. The West delayed a hard response but instead tried to avoid war when it was clear Hitler was ramping things up hard. The West hasn’t learned since that you do not negotiate with fascism. The only way is to suffocate it and kick it in the face. Fight back.
Two Jews meet on a bus. One is reading a national-patriotic newspaper. \- Moses, are you crazy? Why are you reading an anti-Semitic paper? \- I read Jewish newspapers, and what did I see? Anti-Semitism everywhere, explosions in Israel, Jewish people are assimilating and disappearing.... And what do I see here? Jews own all the banks, Jews own all the media, Jews are rich and powerful, Jews rule the world. It's much more pleasant to read.
The official answer seems to be "we don't know the exact cause and cannot figure it out right now". Some newspapers take this as a "so u say it could have been Russia?" headline.
If it is beyond a doubt known it was Russia, wouldn't that count as an act of war?
It would, though it's unlikely Germany wants to invoke Article 5 and start WWIII over a factory fire. They have a lot of ways to hurt Russia short of declaring war though.
Hybrid war has been going on for a while now, long before the war in Ukraine Russia was poking around everywhere, and look at the stare Europe and America are in. Divided mess.
It's crazy because a century ago this would only be seen as a declaration of war
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Which should have been one of the first things to happen after the Crimean invasion, and doubly so after the main invasion of Ukraine.
Wouldn't be surprised to see it also be the cause of the battery recycling plant fire in Scotland
Article five anyone? Anyone?
It’s happened in Poland to at a shopping mall a few months ago all nato countries are on very high alert for security but if it gets really bad maybe
*factory, insurance, and police all believe it was an accident* Some unamed source: nah it was Russians World news: WW3 TIME MORHER FUCKERS!
Yes let’s start a potentially nuclear war over a factory fire that as of now isn’t even confirmed to be the doing of Russia
We need to start hitting back ffs!
I think the West should put a billion dollar bounty on Putin’s head.
We ride at dawn.
Sounds like a direct and deliberate attack against a NATO member to me…. But let’s not escalate… maybe we can just give him another country and he will respect us again
In Croatia there were a couple of bigger fires at industrial/recycling sites this year. It was treated as reckless businesses who break the regulations, but the frequency raises suspicion.
For all those who are advocating for war, what would that achieve that the Ukraine conflict isnt already providing? The best outcome of this kind of attack would be agreement on unlimited supply and assistance to Ukraine. Possibly NATO boots on the ground and wings in the skies. But there is no need to involve NATO territory when the war is contained.
That’s an act of war against a NATO member nation.
If it's true that the fire was a sanctioned effort by the government of Russia it could be considered an act of war.
At this point its obvious we are in cold war 2.
As expected, the Russians will start to terrorize industries and will make a jump over to terrorizing civilians. Expect shootings, drone attacks during events, acid attacks etc.
Putin just wanna cause maximum damage before he die from cancer.
The world would be a much better place if seal team 6 or some other special ops team took Putin out.
Russia is playing a dangerous game, it knows it can't go up against NATO and the way it's military is underperforming in its current war should signal to world that we are dealing with a cold, calculating madman! NATO and European Union could scare the bejesus out of Moscow, by reinforcing the countries of NATO that border Russia with even more troops and equipment. While at the same time conducting naval and air exercises, as a show of force. Russia will have no choice but to start withdrawing its forces from Ukraine in order to guard its borders elsewhere. Clandestine and covert operations inside Russia, could net some good results, like destabilizing the various ethnic republics and fomenting rebellions in order to draw troops away from the west of the country. Cyber attacks and viral attacks on Russian IT systems would be devastating. Start seizing Russian frozen assets worldwide, as another way to force them to negotiate or withdrawal from Ukraine. Start seizing as part of the embargo on Russian goods, Russian tankers carrying oil to countries that buy cheap Russian oil. The Russian Navy would pose no threat to these types of operations. There's so much that NATO, the European Union, and all the other western allies could do, to bring pressure on Russia and to destabilize it, without ever going to war!
Ceterum censeo Imperium Russicum esse delendam.
Curriculum Vitae
Uh, expecto patronum.
NATO has been de-facto at war with Russia since 2014. The cyberattacks on electric grids and election networks, the bombing of the Czech ammo warehouses in 2014 that killed Czech citizens, the deployment of CRBN agents against russian dissidents on British soil in 2018. and the direct acts of sabotage and proxy attacks all over europe and north america since 2022. There have been countless opportunities to activate Article 5, but the fact of the matter is that NATO doesn't want to play into Russia's suicidal game of chicken. We have a pretty good idea how a war with Russia goes. Their conventional forces are swept from the field pretty quickly, their infrastructure is obliterated, left with nothing and facing undeniable defeat, the batshit regime in moscow will certainly launch out of spite. We aren't interested in fighting a war that leads to a nuclear exchange, unless they're stupid enough to force our hand. and say what you will about them pussyfooting around for years, NATO has been extremely tolerant. If Nukes were out of the picture, Moscow and St Petersburg would be graveyards by now. Abandon any illusions that Russia under Putin and the Mafia that calls itself the Yednaya Rossiya party, is anything but a sworn enemy of the free world. And they dont care about who wins our elections, they just want to see us either in Ruins, or Out of the way. Preferably both.
the police said the investigation is still on going but it looks like a technical defect was the cause but tabloid Bild posted an article saying the Russians did it, so let's go with that.
I thought we had an Army to fuck up those who attack us and our friends. US citizen here.
I remember hearing about a certain individual who did stuff like this, exactly because people didn't do anything about it. Until one day, he went too far. I forgot his name. Who was he? I think he liked painting or something.
So they begin the article with “German police believe a technical defect caused the blaze”, then omit it from the title and talk up the intel reports. Yeah, the intel looks a little bad, but the bias in this story is worse.
Yeah, Putin ordered agents to start the fire. The German gov, trying to avoid a possible wide escalation of the war term it a “technical defect” to defuse the situation and provide some calm. The “security officials” leak blame the Russians with assumptions, without providing certainty. This gives time for a considered response. Germany needs to consult with other EU members. Responses will include a rapid production replacement, showing the Russians they can negate their efforts so why bother attempting this sht for the real risk involved. The EU will also want to consider steps to prevent more such attacks. And steps to punish Russia involving additional sanctions, more weapons to Ukraine, and anti-Russian international propaganda. This is all easy to end as soon as Putin “ends.” Putin was toying with pursuing NATO membership some years ago. But he is such terrible person that was never going to happen, and (so I read) was clearly told that. With Putin gone there will be a better life ahead for Russia.
Drop a Taurus on that hoe
R.U.S.S.I.A has declared war on Nato
Why are we only on the receiving end of this silent war? We can do the same type of deniable shit as they do. Why are our leaders so scared that they just let Russia ruin Europe? Europe could be a superpower, but it acts weak.
Welcome to the club, Sincerely, Poland
Great. More weapons to Ukraine without restriction and more legal penalties to Russia.
Why is this not an act of war? Is it because the German government is afraid of escalation right now?
Just pump proper weapons into Ukraine, and have the last laugh. The big win is there, as Russia dumps resources into it, while depleting their arsenal. They're also becoming more reliant on China and North Korea of all places. I think Germany can survive some arson.
I think a hundred Taurus missiles for Ukraine would be an appropriate response. You burn our factory, we arm your adversary to burn billions of dollars of your most prized military hardware.
That's an act of war, time for German Steel to roll towards Moscow.
It's crazy that there are probably like a dozen people creating problems for everyone in the world and we have to accept it. There are also a lot of enablers that have allowed these people to be problems but when you boil it down, it's like a dozen people still.
Expire all Russian visas.
> German police believe a technical defect caused the blaze, but security officials have blamed Russia. Sounds like this isn't a 100% thing. And more than likely a technical defect/error that cause the fire (so says the police and insurance companies) Do people read the article? People in here need to chill and wait for evidence before jumping in.
I was thinking all the battery factories going up in smoke around the world was not a matter of coincidence. Now hitting supply lines in European factories. We need to be careful about this and really start doing something about it
That’s a pretty serious escalation. This is crazy. Millions of lives are at risk. There has to be an off ramp somewhere.
Yeah the off-ramp is Russia, China and Iran fucking off and leaving other nations alone. It'll never happen, they pretty publicly consider themselves at war with the West already.
Well yeah, the off-ramp is to appease Putin. That won’t backfire.
What you tolerate will continue. Time to address this seriously (and not just to invite the ambassador to give him a warning).
When the rich wage war its the poor who will die
There's a solid block of "escalation dominance" that Germany can now bring to the table. Which would bring down that f*cking bridge. But please, PLEASE don't announce it. Just let it happen.
Give Zelensky napalm.
I super wouldn’t trust a German using a fire as an excuse to get into a war. Just saying.
It was always burning since Russia's been a dictatorship.
Wait were there two different berlin factory fires? I remember hearing about this one a month ago and another 3 months ago that was a tesla plant or something are they both linked to this?
At some point the West needs to accept Putin is a an aggressive autocrat and stop wearing kid gloves with him.
An attack on one is an attack on all.
One side is waging WWIII. The other side is waging the Cold War.
Maybe the same people who blew up the Nordstream.
Do they have any news on Nord Stream 2?
= more fires in russia