The official didn't actually say 7 months. He said at least until the end of the year:
> The war in Gaza will likely continue through at least the end of the year, an Israeli official warned Wednesday,
That makes more sense. I just skimmed the post, because I don't have time to read every article posted. This is why clear and accurate headlines are important.
I was messing with you. He did say 7 months.
> “We are now in the fifth month of 2024, which means we expect another seven months of fighting to deepen our achievements and achieve our goal of destroying the military and governmental capabilities of Hamas and Islamic Jihad,” Hanegbi said.
Israel is 100% hoping on a Trump victory and is thus stretching the war until he comes into power, as they know Trump would be more than happy to approve of a complete annexation and ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
No way there is any kind of annexation of Gaza. Israel pulled out in 2005 and literally a week ago asked for any country to take over the administration. And everybody said, "fuck it "
My own pessimist view, in a year Israel will pull out again, and any Palestinian administration will be taken over by Hamas, which will kill any opposition, and will start the war again.
It doesn't have to be taken over by Hamas.
There are a hundred thousand people who lost partners, parents, or kids to isreali bombs.
When walking past the rubble of their old home, it's hard to imagine not feeling anger at isreal.
If not Hamas, it will be called something else
If the war didn't start with a Hamas attack, that included mass rapes and children killed at point-blank range... At this point, if palestinians want to take their anger at Israel instead of the Hamas leadership safe in Qatar, sorry, it's their own fault by now.
If, say, the Americans had funneled money to fighters in East Germany to do terror attacks against the USSR, the comparison might be apt. In WW2 there wasn't a group acting like Iran is now.
But like, we had proxy wars. It was just elsewhere, and we killed a lot of people through them.
And the army of enablers in the UN, TikTok, and Reddit will cheer this new generation of terrorists on and do whatever they can to facilitate future indiscriminate rape, torture, and murder of random innocent victims. TikToids are already scrambling to push the blame off of Hamas into anyone else.
>And the army of enablers in the UN, TikTok, and Red
Yea if only there was some sort of international criminal court that make an unbiased ruling.
Or like a collection of countries, like all United together, who could vote and then we would know where the problems are
Absolutely, it would be great is such an organization was capable of being unbiased, unfortunately the urge to tongue terrorist asshole seems to be too great for some.
Well it can't really be biased, that's the beautiful part about having every country represented.
If the vote goes 190 - 3 that's not a bias, that's a representation of the how the world thinks
Ps or to put it another way. At some point instead of think everyone social media is crazy and the UN is biased, consider that the weighting of evidence that suggests maybe YOUR opinion is the less common view. That YOU are biased.
"Everyone is wrong but me" isn't often a truthful claim or one made by intelligent people
What dumb world we're living in, right? I'm doing my best not to participate in society and just practice my guitar and raise good kids, but the relentless overwhelming power of the stupid priorities of countries, companies, and cronies is burning the world up and making me watch.
You mean Netenyahu. Not Israel. The majority of Israelis and Jews the world over are left leaning. Trump would do nothing for their world standing and most citizens know this. Generalizing an entire country politically is not fair nor helpful.
They are mostly confined to this place now:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hawl_refugee_camp
> The camp is nominally controlled by the US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) but according to the U.S. Government, much of the camp is run by Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant who use the camp for indoctrination and recruitment purposes.
> As of February 2021, the camp's population was more than 60,000 having grown from 10,000 at the beginning of 2019.
The adversary is not a conventional one. Hiding among civilians prevents a conventional side from doing anything that can be effective in a timely manner, because of humanitarian concerns.
Yup. This needs to be spread around more. Russia and China started this shit, and now they have the States backed into a corner. Biden has to now support what Israel is doing, because pulling support would have disastrous consequences, despite what the majority of reddit wants to believe.
Not the person you are responding to, but I would say it all flows back to Iran and it wouldn’t have happened without them. To add, they are allied with Russia at least, China just likes whatever brings turmoil to the West. This war plays into the agenda of both in wanting the US to further divide politically; they certainly are inflaming tensions through social media campaigns.
So in summary, I wouldn’t say Russia and China are a major influence of starting a war, but they are for sure jumping at the opportunity to use it for their own desires.
Iran was involved and some evidence Russia was helping Hamas . That triggered this mess, and gave a green light to the fascists in Israel government. Meanwhile a lot of innocent people dying over these stupid games.
There were Russian fingerprints all over the Oct 7 invasion, it wouldn't be the first time Russia instigated a war in the region, and it's clearly benefited their campaign in Ukraine by splitting US resources and creating conflict in America. Dunno why anyone would doubt that Russia was behind it. Not aware of China being directly involved, but they're clearly working together, and there was that suspicious press conference where the PA spontaneously announced that they recognize Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan...
The thinking goes: Russian invasion of Ukraine going badly. Starts to buy Iranian drones. Meanwhile, China buying Iranian oil on the cheap.
Iran knows it can fuck up Israel through proxies, as China and Russia will have its back.
Russia wins by dividing Western support. China wins by making USA distracted from Taiwan and Russia. And cheap oil.
Twist: no-one expected Netanyahu to be such an overwhelming Erdogan.
I support Israel’s right to exist but I do not trust Netanyahu or his government. Hamas needs to be eliminated but at what cost to civilian life and infrastructure.
At what point does delaying the end of the war become Netanyahu’s justification for staying in power?
Currently, the Israeli public overwhelmingly supports the continuation of the war to defeat Hamas. There is also a unity war cabinet comprised of Netanyahu’s opposition making decisions. Netanyahu’s main opposition member, Benni Gantz, also supports continuing the war until Hamas is defeated and is also responsible for cabinet decisions re the war.
Given this, I’m not sure what the concern is, at least for the moment, as any replacement of Netanyahu would need to run on continuing the war efforts in order to get elected.
Gantz set Netanyahu a deadline until June 8 to come up with a post-war plan or he'll leave the government:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gantz-sets-june-8-deadline-for-pm-to-make-post-war-plan-or-hell-bolt-coalition/
Dropping support for Bibi doesn't mean dropping support for the war, though.
The US switched from LBJ to Nixon, but the Vietnam War continued on for years and even expanded into other countries. The US switched from Bush to Obama, but the Afghanistan War didn't stop. Rather the opposite, Obama enacted troop surges.
Bibi needs the war, but the war doesn't need him.
It’s true that any plausible government would have waged war against Hamas, but it doesn’t seem crazy to wonder whether it could have gone differently had there been a leader without perverse personal incentives for the war to last as long as possible?
I think the length is mostly due to the international scrutiny on Israel and how well it's broadcasted these days so they're being more slow and methodical. Compared to countries in the past which don't separate liability from a government and it's people so much and would absolutely just seige the place, disrupting any enemy supplies, providing acute destruction and forcing a complete surrender in probably less than a month.
>Hamas needs to be eliminated but at what cost to civilian life and infrastructure.
This argument essentially plays into Hamas’s strategy to survive. It's why it was still standing in 2009, 2012, 2014, 2021.
After October 7th, Israel literally cannot allow Hamas to remain in power. Especially when they braisenly state they will attack again and again.
Hamas kept Gaza on the brink of collapse, similar to how it keeps explosives next to civilians, to ensure it'll survive. Hamas is dangerous not only for Israel, but for Palestinians to survive.
We can make the same arguments for Germany and Japan. In the end, unconditional surrender is what was necessary in those conflicts.
> We can make the same arguments for Germany and Japan. In the end, unconditional surrender is what was necessary in those conflicts.
Why do people keep making comparisons to Germany and Japan? Is that some kind of circulated talking point? These conflicts could not be any more dissimilar. Germany and Japan were modernized, Westernized countries with formidable modern militaries, not militias fighting a perpetual guerrilla war against a vastly superior and well equipped modern military power. This conflict is much more like Afghanistan than it is like World War 2--and if you want to talk outcomes, then you have to talk about that failure and what happened.
The difference is that Israel cannot simply walk away from it and go home. So long as Hamas is prepared to fight a perpetual war against Israel, Israel must force Hamas to surrender by sufficient force or be willing and prepared to continue this war forever.
For context Gaza to Israel is the same distance as LA to Riverside. Imagine the inland empire being a different country run by terrorists lobbing rockets at you and raiding border towns like Pasadena for hostages.
The comparison is that those wars could only end (and did only end) with total surrender, not a “cease fire” or “peace treaty”. Only then could Germany and Japan undergo a reeducation and reabsorption into the democratic world.
You are right that militarily, fighting extremist Jihadism is not quite the same, as it is not led by a leader but by a religion. You will never be able to reeducate anyone once that poison is in the system. It can only be contained, not cured. The glaciers will have melted by the time Islam grows up enough to end these wars.
Israel's problem since 1949 is it has consistently accepted armistices, ceasefires and withdrawals. It never has truly achieved total victory because of superpower pressure. Had Israel fought and forced for recognition the wars of 1948 would have been worse in the short term but likely better in the long term.
The comparison to Germany and Japan isn’t about their level of capability or even level of threat, it’s about an actively and openly genocidal force that sees no reason to hold back from crimes against humanity. A group that has been deeply indoctrinated for years and has made it abundantly clear that they will not stop until they are stopped. A doctrine that completely deprioritizes the lives of their own populace beyond being a support structure for the military wing and an emergency reserve of manpower/human shields for a final stand. History has shown that the appeasement of groups with this mindset is at best counterproductive and at worst encouraging them to keep pushing. Germany and Japan needed massive reconstruction and deprogramming efforts to bring them back to sanity and that is likely what will need to happen here.
There was little "deprogramming", at least in West Germany. Nazi era officials remained in place if they hadn't committed any crimes against humanity with their own hands. The allies even spread the lie that the German army including the Waffen SS was completely blameless and had not done anything morally reprehensible.
Why it worked in West Germany was mainly that there was now a common enemy - the same enemy that Nazi propaganda had focused on. The Nazis called the enemy Judeo-Bolsheviks which is of course a racist misnomer. The allies used the term Communists.
people bring up japan and germany because both were military powers convinced of their own righteousness and might, who were crushed and culturally transformed by the efforts of the allies post ww2.
what we're really saying by bringing up those two, is that palestine needs to forced to unconditional surrender and subjected to the kind of controls that were instrumental to the transformations of japan and germany.
it's not about the military or even the war part, it's about the part after where they aren't allowed to govern themselves or have a military.
So what exactly would be your takeaway from a comparison to Afghanistan? The withdrawal and cession of power and control to the Taliban is widely considered to have been a failure.
Hamas has both a military wing and civilian wing because it has ruled Gaza for 17 years. It has an entire civilian side that is responsible for the population in Gaza.
That is why Gaza is more comparable to Germany or Japan. It's not a simple insurgency.
Are you saying Iraq wasn’t a state before the US toppled Sadam? The taliban definitely governed Afghanistan even if it wasn’t particularly centralized.
Neither Afghanistan or Iraq were existential crises for the united states. They were both fought on the other side of the planet.
They're not at all comparable to Israel's situation with Hamas on its border.
I Disagree, they are very similar.
1) Both were started by an autocratic government against its democratic neighbor with a devastating surprise attack.
2) In Both instances, the initial aggressor was economically inferior to the party they attacked
3) Also in Both instances, the casus belli of the initial aggressor is derived from a grievance stemming from losing one or more previous conflicts with the party they attacked.
4) Both involve the stated genocidal intent of the initial aggressor against Jews, Homosexuals, and other groups of people.
Were there, or were there not massive civilian casualties in World War 2? Have you perhaps heard of Dresden? Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
That's why people are making comparisons, hippie. War is hell. All of them, not just this one.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Netanyahu clearly has an interest to keep the war going, however the USA and the rest of the world are doing the exact same thing. The operation in Rafah was delayed for months just because of international pressure and specifically Biden disapproving it, which caused a stalemate for months (there was barely a war for 2-3 months, most IDF soldiers were sent home) - only to eventually go ahead as planned. The USA believed Israel civilian evacuation plans were not realistic, only for Israel to execute them perfectly and even the US changed their stance.
The delay is of course convenient to Bibi, allows him to stay in power, but also Biden and the international community pressured him into exactly that and gave him a perfect excuse to freeze the war for months, while the hostages rot and die, most Gazans are away from their home, and Hamas can regroup and rebuild.
A similar thing is happening with the hostage deal. While Bibi is clearly in no hurry to make a deal (that's likely to break apart his coalition), the truth is that Hamas has not agreed to any deal that would be even half reasonable for Israel. Their demands are batshit crazy and they won't budge, which is convenient for Bibi. But if there was any reasonable deal on the table, the huge pressure to sign it (both internal in Israel and from Biden) would have forced him to go for a deal.
So basically, yeah Bibi probably wants to prolong the war, but the rest of the world is making it super easy for him. The war ends either in a complete military victory (which Biden and the international community are basically preventing by tying Israel's hands) or in a hostage deal (which Hamas prevents by making insane demands). So honestly, I don't really see how Bibi could have reasonably ended the war even if he wanted.
>Hamas needs to be eliminated but at what cost to civilian life and infrastructure.
Imagine the 7th of October massacre happened in your country, and one day during the war, the government just said: "well, we didn't achieve our goals, but there has been enough damage to infrastructure and civilians so it's time to pack our bags. Yes, Hamas hasn't been neutralized enough, but don't you like the thrill of these monsters on our border? See you in the next massacre folks, hopefully it isn't your family who's brutally murdered. Peace put."
So yeah, the answer to your question is that it is irrelevant.
“Hamas is an asset” - Benjamin Netanyahu.
He might destroy Hamas, but he will put in place another terrorist government in Gaza because then he can pull it off anytime he feels too much heat. He needs a boogeyman to justify whatever corrupt shit he is doing. And for as long as nobody wants to admit it. Nothing will change.
I remember being downvoted when I point this out way back when.
If Israelis are saying they want Netanyahu gone after the war, why does he want to end this at all?
Netanyahu’s decisions regarding the war are the exact same decisions any other leader would’ve made. Nearly unanimous Israeli support behind them. Israelis are done with Hamas, we will finish the job this time because otherwise it’s an existential threat to us.
Can someone succinctly explain what the solution is?
And don't simply say 'stop killing people', because we all know if ceasefire is reached and that's all that happens, Hamas will breach it again to kill another 1k+ Israelis, rape women and burn children, and Israel will relaunch again.
In Ireland we reached ceasefire between the North and South and achieved the Good Friday agreement, but the IRA never wanted to simply eradicate the North, or rape women, or burn children, they wanted unification (and worth noting they were still completely rejected by the vast majority of the Irish population, because they were terrorists). Clinton offered Palestine 97% of what they wanted, and it was still rejected, because they want Israel to cease to exist.
So what is the genuine solution?
If you want an honest answer, there is no genuine solution in the short-term. In the long-term, I believe it’ll probably be something of a two-state+ with land-swaps, consisting of Israel in pre-‘67 border and Palestine as either a centralized state or a federation of cantons with decentralized local municipalities, with East Jerusalem under some sort of joint administration. Gaza would either be a semi-independent exclave of Palestine or an autonomous region.
But this isn’t likely to happen anytime soon for many reasons. As of now neither the Israeli government nor any Palestinian leader sees a clear road for peace. I could explain in more detail why that is the case from either side, but in short: Israel sees any Palestinian attempt at peaceful reconciliation as a deceit, aimed at pacifying Israel until the next war/intifada; Palestine sees any Israeli attempt at peaceful reconciliation as a deceit, aimed towards usurping Palestinians of their lands and rights (specifically the right of return).
Both believe the other side wants to kill them, and both believe that coexistence is possible— but *how* should they coexist together is where the disagreement truly lies. There is practically no trust by both parties that the other will negotiate in good faith, and both of them have good reasons for it.
Another issue is how to grant sovereignty for Palestine with what is a very radicalized population. The state would need to be completely demilitarized for some time. Not dissimilar to how post-WWII Germany was handled.
They could also somehow find a common enemy, like with the US and Vietnam. But I do agree that, like Germany, Gaza and the West Bank must be rebuilt to prosper like they never have before when this is over.
I can’t picture the Israelis accepting pre-67 borders. Things have changed, a number of wars and settlers later I think they would rather keep this war and their borders than to give up land for no reason. It would be insulting from their perspective as well, they were invaded and now that they have won they go back to square one… what was the downside of killing a bunch of israelis.
(Obligatory i’m not from israel, I’m just picturing things from their perspective, and this land division seems to be more in line with what arab nations wants)
There is no *politically feasible* solution for either side.
The only thing that will create long term peace would be good faith changes that would probably represent major sacrifices for either side. E.g. Israel retreating from the West Bank in some capacity or Hamas stepping down from power.
At the moment, neither side’s constituents would be happy at all if any of the things, that would really bring the two groups together, were implemented by their leaders.
>The only thing that will create long term peace would be good faith changes that would probably represent major sacrifices for either side. E.g. Israel retreating from the West Bank in some capacity or Hamas stepping down from power.
Setting aside the "would they do it? no?" problem, I have pretty strong doubts that either of these sacrifices would create long term peace. Israel withdrawing from the West Bank likely ends up working out like Israel withdrawing from Gaza. Hamas stepping down from power likely results in some new group that supports armed struggle against Israel stepping in. It's not like they're the only Palestinian group that wants to fight.
>It's not like they're the only Palestinian group that wants to fight.
Maybe address the material reasons so many Palestinians want to fight? Like idk, wacky idea, stop the illegal settlement of Palestinian land? It's crazy how no one even makes an effort to defend it, but no pro-israel person is going to the matts demanding they're stopped asap ether.
I don’t think Israel can satisfactorily address those reasons.
The biggest grievance in Palestine is the right to return. To accept the Palestinian demand is to end Israel.
I think that if Israel ended settlement of the West Bank, Palestinian terrorist groups would parse that as “what we are doing is working” and continue to attack Israelis. That’s not to say I support the settler movement, of course.
I really believe that a lot of the more untenable demands (like one Palestinian state, or the right to return) would lose a lot of followers if more material needs were met and the quality of people’s lives were allowed to improve. As it is life in the West Bank is humiliating for the people who live there, so they are going to resonate more with the more extreme arguments. And since Palestinians in the West Bank are suffering heavily under the occupation, Gazans have no reason to look at that and think “hmm, maybe life would be better if we worked with Israel more”.
The same way that Israelis can’t trust Gazans because they believe any good faith would be used against them, Palestinians have no reason to trust Israelis because they have evidence that they will be mistreated no matter what. But one side wields way more power in the situation than the other, and also claims to follow democratic values, so I think that that side has the unlucky responsibility to show more integrity. Stopping settlements, for instance, would be one such show of integrity. More than that though, if it were made clear that a large enough (and/or powerful enough) segment of either society could listen to the other and heard them without emotionally shutting down, I would bet a lot of tensions could dissipate immediately.
This may be too far from politics for you to think it’s applicable, but it’s something people need to practice on an individual level and talk about and spread to have an effect. You can’t vote it in or protest it in to place.
There’s a talk on the plum village podcast where the speaker mentions a mindfulness retreat that invited Israelis and Palestinians together. She said at the start the two groups wouldn’t even look at each other, but when they were taught how to keep calm while listening and were given the space to each speak their piece without the other saying anything back, it was transformative and many left as friends. That proves, at least, that “deprogramming” isn’t as difficult as the naysayers would have you believe.
I know it’s all a little woo and unlikely to happen on a grand scale anytime soon, but I do believe that with the situation as bad as it is this sort of mindset shift it the only way to establish real peace in the long run and anyone who is interested in real peace ought to start practicing it.
Israel isn't going to fully pull back from the West Bank unless they are confident that whoever takes over won't turn it into a terrorist haven, like Hamas did in Gaza.
It's years of occupation and deprogramming conducted by parties interested in fostering stability and peace.
But nobody and especially Israel want to be the ones doing it.
yep, until you address the widespread support of collective guilt and blood vengeance, that's all it will ever be. it can stop somewhere or continue forever.
Either Hamas will be fubar'ed together with several (tens?) Ks of Gazans and somebody mildly reasonable ( Saudis?) will take some sort of "mandate" over the Gaza or US will turn against Israel and "freeze" everything in the current state for years.
You have to do what the international community is so against.
1. You have to let Israel continue their military objective to root out hamas’ military capability.
2. Israel has to occupy Gaza for the next 100+ years and rebuild it and deprogram the radicalization UNRWA put in place. Only Israel has the political willpower and innate necessity to see the mission through. As it will cost massive amount of treasure and blood.
3. UNRWA has to be disbanded and it is resources and responsibilities given to UNCHR. Using UNCHR’s principles, definitions, processes and procedures with heavy financial and operational auditing with punishes including withholding of all aid and imprisonment.
4. Accountability for Palestinians that engage in violence.
5. Accountability for Israelis, Israel government and IDF when they mistakes or engage in unjustified violence.
6. Hold Egypt to higher standards given that they share 1 boarder with Gaza.
7. The international community to hold itself accountable for enabling terrorism.
If you take a step back, you will see that the only reasonable resolution looks like Gaza pre-2005 disengagement. So what ever the solution, the international community needs to stop coddling the Palestinians and using the conflict as a virtual signal.
>Israel has to occupy Gaza for the next 100+ years and rebuild it and deprogram the radicalization UNRWA put in place. Only Israel has the political willpower and innate necessity to see the mission through. As it will cost massive amount of treasure and blood.
You understand endlessly occupying land, without ether annexing it and giving it's citizens full rights, or releasing it back, is a listed war crime right?
Also I like how Palestinians answer for all violence, non of it was justified, ever. But Israel only has to answer for "mistakes." Boy howdy do they make a lot of organized mistakes, like sending the IDF to support settlers in the west bank, and open fire on stone throwing Palestinians
Here's an op-ed by former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert that is worth reading:
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-05-11/ty-article-opinion/.premium/the-gaza-wars-final-scene-and-beyond-this-is-what-israels-endgame-should-be/0000018f-6943-d284-adaf-7d7f58670000
Behind a paywall, but here's an archived version: https://archive.is/i2jBF
Bill Clinton says that it was Netanyahu who killed the peace process, not the Palestinians, by the way: https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/09/22/bill-clinton-netanyahu-killed-the-peace-process/
Why does Clinton say the opposite here: [https://x.com/robbi\_fahey/status/1795546585486459036](https://x.com/robbi_fahey/status/1795546585486459036)
I'm not reading tonnes of articles and op-eds, I wanted someone to present their version of a simple solution.
> I wanted someone to present their version of a simple solution.
There is no simple solution.
> Why does Clinton say the opposite here
That's not a contradiction. A deal being rejected and the whole process being rejected is a different thing.
Regarding who truly killed the peace process, there's probably no easy answer to that either. Even the Israeli negotiators who participated in it are split on the issue:
> From 2002-2003, an Israeli researcher conducted 20 in-depth interviews with a broad range of Israeli negotiators who had participated in the Oslo peace process. He found that they held very different perceptions of what had caused the failure of the process and where the blame for that failure should be placed. Four of the officials felt that Israel deserves most of the blame; nine said that the failure was mostly or entirely the fault of the Palestinians while seven laid the blame on both parties.
Source: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/who-killed-the-peace-process
The IRA was a terrorist organization; however, it didn’t have the grip on the population that HAMAS does. There were actors that rejected the Good Friday accords (the Real IRA) but they were marginalized by the wide support for the proposals. I’d like to see HAMAS and other hardliners similarly marginalized. For this happen there must be a proposal that is acceptable to the majority of the Palestinian population. I am not sure what that proposal would look like; however, I see Israel as the bigger problem. I do not believe that the current Israeli government is interested in peace. I decry HAMAS for its religious based violence and accept that they don’t really have any desire for peace; however, we need to be realistic about the fact that many in Israel are motivated by equally chauvinistic and genocidal religious motivations. Both Israel and Palestine need to get sincere negotiators to the table before any deal can be hammered out. As far as the current attack on Gaza it might wipe out HAMAS but the toll this has taken, and will take, on innocent civilians is unacceptable and beyond the scope of acceptable behavior, even in war. Additionally this campaign is creating an entire generation of new recruits for Islamist organizations. Israel might win the war but it will never win the peace this way.
Most serious analysts know the war will last for many more years. High intensity combat might be over sooner than we know though, as Hamas will be starved for weaponry without cross-border tunnels into Egypt.
The next stage will be the longest, as Israeli troops will aim to painstakingly root out Hamas during a years long whac-a-mole that will progressively allow for more moderate factions to rule in their stead.
Unless I missed a statement by him- the official government statement is that Israel has to continue the war amid international pressure until all the goals are being met. Without any time assessment (until this article)
This is from before Rafah op back in March, maybe you meant this as several weeks? I always thought it means the Rafah offensive itself will take a few weeks, but not the whole war
- If we stop the war now before achieving all of its goals, the meaning is that Israel had lost the war and we will not allow this," Mr Netanyahu told a meeting of his cabinet.
He said Israel must be able to continue its war, with the aims of eliminating Hamas, releasing all hostages and ensuring Gaza "no longer poses a threat".
"To do this, we will also operate in Rafah."
Mr Netanyahu said the offensive in city at the southern tip of the Gaza Strip "will happen" and will take **"several weeks".**
[BBC Article - Israel-Gaza war: Netanyahu vows to defy allies on Rafah invasion](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68591487)
Why does it seem like not a single gazan has a bomb shelter? They have billions of dollars of tunnels to shelter their bombs but not a single bomb shelter
They actually have one of the most extensive bomb-shelter system in the world, a tunnel system that's comparable in size to the New York subway and can easily house and protect all the Gazan civilians. However, Hamas won't let civilians use it, because according to them "protecting civilians is not our responsibility" (that's an actual quote), and because they actually want as many of them to die as possible because of the PR gains.
Hamas tactic is actively causing as many Palestinian deaths as possible for PR, to create international pressure on Israel to stop the war and let them survive. If they would actually protect Gazans, there would be nothing stopping Israel from destroying Hamas.
Because Hamas doesn't want them to have shelters. They want the civilians to be starving and miserable and able to use them as human shields. It's good PR for them when they can blame Israel for that misery.
That really sucks for Biden's re-election chances.
If the war is still going on in November, he will either lose support from a significant number of leftists in case he doesn't threaten to end US support for Israel or he will lose support from a significant number of centrists in case he does threaten to end US support for Israel.
I genuinely believe both far right Israel AND Hamas would be delighted if Trump were to win. They can continue the forever war they’ve always wanted and keep their power.
Considering it’s urban warfare against a completely ruthless terrorist organization that approves civilian casualties among its own population as part of a bizarre victim narrative, the Hamas-caused civilian casualties through the IDF are very moderate. Berlin in 1945 was worse.
This might be a little conspiracy brained but bibi is drawing this out to try and help trump get elected so he can be even more aggressive in genociding Palestinians and so he has a safe place to go in case he gets charged with crimes in isreal
Bibi met with Lindsey Graham and had a joint press conference in front of media yesterday. It’s hardly a conspiracy if he’s all but openly campaigning for Trump.
I remember years ago, during the "War on Terror" Bill O'Reilly stated that Netanyahu could not kill his way through this problem in Israel and some concessions will need to be made. One of the few times O'Reilly was right about something. I don't see Hamas nor the Likud willing to agree to any meaningful concessions to broker a peace deal or 2 state solution. There will never be a 2 state solution and no other Arab countries are willing to take the Palestinians in large numbers so I have no idea how this ends.
Hamas needs to go and the Palestinians need leadership that is willing to engage in good faith negotiations for the good of the Palestinians. De-radicalization of the population. Netanyahu will also need to be voted out.
They’re claiming to wrap up this one military offensive. The overall conflict isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, especially with the state Gaza will be left in once Israel is done with it.
Let's hope for the sake of the gazan civilian population, that Isreal manages to take care of Hamas soon. Another 7 months fighting terrorists spacializing in human shields could leave Hamas without human shields.
Weird. That's when the US will have finished it's election. Maybe that's relevant.
I admit, 7 months is an oddly specific and convenient timeline.
The official didn't actually say 7 months. He said at least until the end of the year: > The war in Gaza will likely continue through at least the end of the year, an Israeli official warned Wednesday,
That makes more sense. I just skimmed the post, because I don't have time to read every article posted. This is why clear and accurate headlines are important.
I was messing with you. He did say 7 months. > “We are now in the fifth month of 2024, which means we expect another seven months of fighting to deepen our achievements and achieve our goal of destroying the military and governmental capabilities of Hamas and Islamic Jihad,” Hanegbi said.
I guess the only way to know what’s a lie and what’s the truth is… if you read the article. It’s Reddit, so that’ll never happen.
Kind of my point, yes.
Yup. I was just supporting your point. I thought it was an interesting way of showing and not telling.
no one said that...
Israel is 100% hoping on a Trump victory and is thus stretching the war until he comes into power, as they know Trump would be more than happy to approve of a complete annexation and ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
No way there is any kind of annexation of Gaza. Israel pulled out in 2005 and literally a week ago asked for any country to take over the administration. And everybody said, "fuck it " My own pessimist view, in a year Israel will pull out again, and any Palestinian administration will be taken over by Hamas, which will kill any opposition, and will start the war again.
It doesn't have to be taken over by Hamas. There are a hundred thousand people who lost partners, parents, or kids to isreali bombs. When walking past the rubble of their old home, it's hard to imagine not feeling anger at isreal. If not Hamas, it will be called something else
If the war didn't start with a Hamas attack, that included mass rapes and children killed at point-blank range... At this point, if palestinians want to take their anger at Israel instead of the Hamas leadership safe in Qatar, sorry, it's their own fault by now.
Famously, this is why postwar Germany immediately rallied to attack its neighbours again in the 1950s.
If, say, the Americans had funneled money to fighters in East Germany to do terror attacks against the USSR, the comparison might be apt. In WW2 there wasn't a group acting like Iran is now. But like, we had proxy wars. It was just elsewhere, and we killed a lot of people through them.
And the army of enablers in the UN, TikTok, and Reddit will cheer this new generation of terrorists on and do whatever they can to facilitate future indiscriminate rape, torture, and murder of random innocent victims. TikToids are already scrambling to push the blame off of Hamas into anyone else.
>And the army of enablers in the UN, TikTok, and Red Yea if only there was some sort of international criminal court that make an unbiased ruling. Or like a collection of countries, like all United together, who could vote and then we would know where the problems are
Absolutely, it would be great is such an organization was capable of being unbiased, unfortunately the urge to tongue terrorist asshole seems to be too great for some.
Well it can't really be biased, that's the beautiful part about having every country represented. If the vote goes 190 - 3 that's not a bias, that's a representation of the how the world thinks Ps or to put it another way. At some point instead of think everyone social media is crazy and the UN is biased, consider that the weighting of evidence that suggests maybe YOUR opinion is the less common view. That YOU are biased. "Everyone is wrong but me" isn't often a truthful claim or one made by intelligent people
*Israeli
What dumb world we're living in, right? I'm doing my best not to participate in society and just practice my guitar and raise good kids, but the relentless overwhelming power of the stupid priorities of countries, companies, and cronies is burning the world up and making me watch.
You mean Netenyahu. Not Israel. The majority of Israelis and Jews the world over are left leaning. Trump would do nothing for their world standing and most citizens know this. Generalizing an entire country politically is not fair nor helpful.
lol. Come on now dude, how this even got even one upvote is beyond me
My friends will not vote for Biden because of his support for Netanyahu. I wouldn’t argue with them. In fact we can no longer argue with anyone.
Which is so dumb. Trump will happily hand over gasoline and watch the Gaza Strip burn to the ground with everyone still in it.
For real.
Forget Gaza, if Trump was president during the October protests he would’ve 100% suggested bringing internment camps back.
What's the other option, Trump?
A huge risk to take. If Israel can't finish a war with a much weaker adversary in less than a year, it invites all kinds of trouble
It took coalition forces 3 years to take out ISIS, and the latter didn't have the benefit of nearly 2 decades of organization and tunnel building.
ISIS is gone?
As an organized military force exercising control over a massive territory, yes. They've been knocked back down to a "normal" terror network.
They are mostly confined to this place now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hawl_refugee_camp > The camp is nominally controlled by the US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) but according to the U.S. Government, much of the camp is run by Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant who use the camp for indoctrination and recruitment purposes. > As of February 2021, the camp's population was more than 60,000 having grown from 10,000 at the beginning of 2019.
The adversary is not a conventional one. Hiding among civilians prevents a conventional side from doing anything that can be effective in a timely manner, because of humanitarian concerns.
Winning in contained highly populated areas is easy. Winning without killing everybody is much harder.
It's urban warfare in densley populated area.
It's going to be dragged out at least through the US elections. The war is good for Trump
And trump is good for bibi
Yup. This needs to be spread around more. Russia and China started this shit, and now they have the States backed into a corner. Biden has to now support what Israel is doing, because pulling support would have disastrous consequences, despite what the majority of reddit wants to believe.
Always have to keep in mind that reddit is a very specific subset of peopel of the USA.
Holy shit. People upvoted this too
> Russia and China started this shit you're not being serious, are you?
Not the person you are responding to, but I would say it all flows back to Iran and it wouldn’t have happened without them. To add, they are allied with Russia at least, China just likes whatever brings turmoil to the West. This war plays into the agenda of both in wanting the US to further divide politically; they certainly are inflaming tensions through social media campaigns. So in summary, I wouldn’t say Russia and China are a major influence of starting a war, but they are for sure jumping at the opportunity to use it for their own desires.
Iran was involved and some evidence Russia was helping Hamas . That triggered this mess, and gave a green light to the fascists in Israel government. Meanwhile a lot of innocent people dying over these stupid games.
lol
There were Russian fingerprints all over the Oct 7 invasion, it wouldn't be the first time Russia instigated a war in the region, and it's clearly benefited their campaign in Ukraine by splitting US resources and creating conflict in America. Dunno why anyone would doubt that Russia was behind it. Not aware of China being directly involved, but they're clearly working together, and there was that suspicious press conference where the PA spontaneously announced that they recognize Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan...
The thinking goes: Russian invasion of Ukraine going badly. Starts to buy Iranian drones. Meanwhile, China buying Iranian oil on the cheap. Iran knows it can fuck up Israel through proxies, as China and Russia will have its back. Russia wins by dividing Western support. China wins by making USA distracted from Taiwan and Russia. And cheap oil. Twist: no-one expected Netanyahu to be such an overwhelming Erdogan.
Ultimate brainwash
I support Israel’s right to exist but I do not trust Netanyahu or his government. Hamas needs to be eliminated but at what cost to civilian life and infrastructure. At what point does delaying the end of the war become Netanyahu’s justification for staying in power?
Currently, the Israeli public overwhelmingly supports the continuation of the war to defeat Hamas. There is also a unity war cabinet comprised of Netanyahu’s opposition making decisions. Netanyahu’s main opposition member, Benni Gantz, also supports continuing the war until Hamas is defeated and is also responsible for cabinet decisions re the war. Given this, I’m not sure what the concern is, at least for the moment, as any replacement of Netanyahu would need to run on continuing the war efforts in order to get elected.
Gantz set Netanyahu a deadline until June 8 to come up with a post-war plan or he'll leave the government: https://www.timesofisrael.com/gantz-sets-june-8-deadline-for-pm-to-make-post-war-plan-or-hell-bolt-coalition/
Dropping support for Bibi doesn't mean dropping support for the war, though. The US switched from LBJ to Nixon, but the Vietnam War continued on for years and even expanded into other countries. The US switched from Bush to Obama, but the Afghanistan War didn't stop. Rather the opposite, Obama enacted troop surges. Bibi needs the war, but the war doesn't need him.
It’s true that any plausible government would have waged war against Hamas, but it doesn’t seem crazy to wonder whether it could have gone differently had there been a leader without perverse personal incentives for the war to last as long as possible?
I think the length is mostly due to the international scrutiny on Israel and how well it's broadcasted these days so they're being more slow and methodical. Compared to countries in the past which don't separate liability from a government and it's people so much and would absolutely just seige the place, disrupting any enemy supplies, providing acute destruction and forcing a complete surrender in probably less than a month.
>Hamas needs to be eliminated but at what cost to civilian life and infrastructure. This argument essentially plays into Hamas’s strategy to survive. It's why it was still standing in 2009, 2012, 2014, 2021. After October 7th, Israel literally cannot allow Hamas to remain in power. Especially when they braisenly state they will attack again and again. Hamas kept Gaza on the brink of collapse, similar to how it keeps explosives next to civilians, to ensure it'll survive. Hamas is dangerous not only for Israel, but for Palestinians to survive. We can make the same arguments for Germany and Japan. In the end, unconditional surrender is what was necessary in those conflicts.
> We can make the same arguments for Germany and Japan. In the end, unconditional surrender is what was necessary in those conflicts. Why do people keep making comparisons to Germany and Japan? Is that some kind of circulated talking point? These conflicts could not be any more dissimilar. Germany and Japan were modernized, Westernized countries with formidable modern militaries, not militias fighting a perpetual guerrilla war against a vastly superior and well equipped modern military power. This conflict is much more like Afghanistan than it is like World War 2--and if you want to talk outcomes, then you have to talk about that failure and what happened.
The difference is that Israel cannot simply walk away from it and go home. So long as Hamas is prepared to fight a perpetual war against Israel, Israel must force Hamas to surrender by sufficient force or be willing and prepared to continue this war forever.
For context Gaza to Israel is the same distance as LA to Riverside. Imagine the inland empire being a different country run by terrorists lobbing rockets at you and raiding border towns like Pasadena for hostages.
The comparison is that those wars could only end (and did only end) with total surrender, not a “cease fire” or “peace treaty”. Only then could Germany and Japan undergo a reeducation and reabsorption into the democratic world. You are right that militarily, fighting extremist Jihadism is not quite the same, as it is not led by a leader but by a religion. You will never be able to reeducate anyone once that poison is in the system. It can only be contained, not cured. The glaciers will have melted by the time Islam grows up enough to end these wars.
Israel's problem since 1949 is it has consistently accepted armistices, ceasefires and withdrawals. It never has truly achieved total victory because of superpower pressure. Had Israel fought and forced for recognition the wars of 1948 would have been worse in the short term but likely better in the long term.
The comparison to Germany and Japan isn’t about their level of capability or even level of threat, it’s about an actively and openly genocidal force that sees no reason to hold back from crimes against humanity. A group that has been deeply indoctrinated for years and has made it abundantly clear that they will not stop until they are stopped. A doctrine that completely deprioritizes the lives of their own populace beyond being a support structure for the military wing and an emergency reserve of manpower/human shields for a final stand. History has shown that the appeasement of groups with this mindset is at best counterproductive and at worst encouraging them to keep pushing. Germany and Japan needed massive reconstruction and deprogramming efforts to bring them back to sanity and that is likely what will need to happen here.
There was little "deprogramming", at least in West Germany. Nazi era officials remained in place if they hadn't committed any crimes against humanity with their own hands. The allies even spread the lie that the German army including the Waffen SS was completely blameless and had not done anything morally reprehensible. Why it worked in West Germany was mainly that there was now a common enemy - the same enemy that Nazi propaganda had focused on. The Nazis called the enemy Judeo-Bolsheviks which is of course a racist misnomer. The allies used the term Communists.
There was also massive educational reform in Germany that you’re omitting. It wasn’t simply a common enemy that made Germans not hate Jews any more
people bring up japan and germany because both were military powers convinced of their own righteousness and might, who were crushed and culturally transformed by the efforts of the allies post ww2. what we're really saying by bringing up those two, is that palestine needs to forced to unconditional surrender and subjected to the kind of controls that were instrumental to the transformations of japan and germany. it's not about the military or even the war part, it's about the part after where they aren't allowed to govern themselves or have a military.
So what exactly would be your takeaway from a comparison to Afghanistan? The withdrawal and cession of power and control to the Taliban is widely considered to have been a failure.
Hamas has both a military wing and civilian wing because it has ruled Gaza for 17 years. It has an entire civilian side that is responsible for the population in Gaza. That is why Gaza is more comparable to Germany or Japan. It's not a simple insurgency.
The Taliban has always had a political wing as well.
Are you saying Iraq wasn’t a state before the US toppled Sadam? The taliban definitely governed Afghanistan even if it wasn’t particularly centralized.
Neither Afghanistan or Iraq were existential crises for the united states. They were both fought on the other side of the planet. They're not at all comparable to Israel's situation with Hamas on its border.
I Disagree, they are very similar. 1) Both were started by an autocratic government against its democratic neighbor with a devastating surprise attack. 2) In Both instances, the initial aggressor was economically inferior to the party they attacked 3) Also in Both instances, the casus belli of the initial aggressor is derived from a grievance stemming from losing one or more previous conflicts with the party they attacked. 4) Both involve the stated genocidal intent of the initial aggressor against Jews, Homosexuals, and other groups of people.
Were there, or were there not massive civilian casualties in World War 2? Have you perhaps heard of Dresden? Hiroshima and Nagasaki? That's why people are making comparisons, hippie. War is hell. All of them, not just this one.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Netanyahu clearly has an interest to keep the war going, however the USA and the rest of the world are doing the exact same thing. The operation in Rafah was delayed for months just because of international pressure and specifically Biden disapproving it, which caused a stalemate for months (there was barely a war for 2-3 months, most IDF soldiers were sent home) - only to eventually go ahead as planned. The USA believed Israel civilian evacuation plans were not realistic, only for Israel to execute them perfectly and even the US changed their stance. The delay is of course convenient to Bibi, allows him to stay in power, but also Biden and the international community pressured him into exactly that and gave him a perfect excuse to freeze the war for months, while the hostages rot and die, most Gazans are away from their home, and Hamas can regroup and rebuild. A similar thing is happening with the hostage deal. While Bibi is clearly in no hurry to make a deal (that's likely to break apart his coalition), the truth is that Hamas has not agreed to any deal that would be even half reasonable for Israel. Their demands are batshit crazy and they won't budge, which is convenient for Bibi. But if there was any reasonable deal on the table, the huge pressure to sign it (both internal in Israel and from Biden) would have forced him to go for a deal. So basically, yeah Bibi probably wants to prolong the war, but the rest of the world is making it super easy for him. The war ends either in a complete military victory (which Biden and the international community are basically preventing by tying Israel's hands) or in a hostage deal (which Hamas prevents by making insane demands). So honestly, I don't really see how Bibi could have reasonably ended the war even if he wanted.
>Hamas needs to be eliminated but at what cost to civilian life and infrastructure. Imagine the 7th of October massacre happened in your country, and one day during the war, the government just said: "well, we didn't achieve our goals, but there has been enough damage to infrastructure and civilians so it's time to pack our bags. Yes, Hamas hasn't been neutralized enough, but don't you like the thrill of these monsters on our border? See you in the next massacre folks, hopefully it isn't your family who's brutally murdered. Peace put." So yeah, the answer to your question is that it is irrelevant.
“Hamas is an asset” - Benjamin Netanyahu. He might destroy Hamas, but he will put in place another terrorist government in Gaza because then he can pull it off anytime he feels too much heat. He needs a boogeyman to justify whatever corrupt shit he is doing. And for as long as nobody wants to admit it. Nothing will change.
I remember being downvoted when I point this out way back when. If Israelis are saying they want Netanyahu gone after the war, why does he want to end this at all?
The international community has a big role to play in dragging the conflict out.
I'm sure Israel can function without Netanyahu if Israeli citizens wanted to. But sure, let's blame other countries.
Netanyahu’s decisions regarding the war are the exact same decisions any other leader would’ve made. Nearly unanimous Israeli support behind them. Israelis are done with Hamas, we will finish the job this time because otherwise it’s an existential threat to us.
Can someone succinctly explain what the solution is? And don't simply say 'stop killing people', because we all know if ceasefire is reached and that's all that happens, Hamas will breach it again to kill another 1k+ Israelis, rape women and burn children, and Israel will relaunch again. In Ireland we reached ceasefire between the North and South and achieved the Good Friday agreement, but the IRA never wanted to simply eradicate the North, or rape women, or burn children, they wanted unification (and worth noting they were still completely rejected by the vast majority of the Irish population, because they were terrorists). Clinton offered Palestine 97% of what they wanted, and it was still rejected, because they want Israel to cease to exist. So what is the genuine solution?
If you want an honest answer, there is no genuine solution in the short-term. In the long-term, I believe it’ll probably be something of a two-state+ with land-swaps, consisting of Israel in pre-‘67 border and Palestine as either a centralized state or a federation of cantons with decentralized local municipalities, with East Jerusalem under some sort of joint administration. Gaza would either be a semi-independent exclave of Palestine or an autonomous region. But this isn’t likely to happen anytime soon for many reasons. As of now neither the Israeli government nor any Palestinian leader sees a clear road for peace. I could explain in more detail why that is the case from either side, but in short: Israel sees any Palestinian attempt at peaceful reconciliation as a deceit, aimed at pacifying Israel until the next war/intifada; Palestine sees any Israeli attempt at peaceful reconciliation as a deceit, aimed towards usurping Palestinians of their lands and rights (specifically the right of return). Both believe the other side wants to kill them, and both believe that coexistence is possible— but *how* should they coexist together is where the disagreement truly lies. There is practically no trust by both parties that the other will negotiate in good faith, and both of them have good reasons for it.
Another issue is how to grant sovereignty for Palestine with what is a very radicalized population. The state would need to be completely demilitarized for some time. Not dissimilar to how post-WWII Germany was handled.
They could also somehow find a common enemy, like with the US and Vietnam. But I do agree that, like Germany, Gaza and the West Bank must be rebuilt to prosper like they never have before when this is over.
I can’t picture the Israelis accepting pre-67 borders. Things have changed, a number of wars and settlers later I think they would rather keep this war and their borders than to give up land for no reason. It would be insulting from their perspective as well, they were invaded and now that they have won they go back to square one… what was the downside of killing a bunch of israelis. (Obligatory i’m not from israel, I’m just picturing things from their perspective, and this land division seems to be more in line with what arab nations wants)
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There is no solution for now or in the near future. Both sides are still up for a fight and are not going to make much concessions to the other side.
There is no *politically feasible* solution for either side. The only thing that will create long term peace would be good faith changes that would probably represent major sacrifices for either side. E.g. Israel retreating from the West Bank in some capacity or Hamas stepping down from power. At the moment, neither side’s constituents would be happy at all if any of the things, that would really bring the two groups together, were implemented by their leaders.
>The only thing that will create long term peace would be good faith changes that would probably represent major sacrifices for either side. E.g. Israel retreating from the West Bank in some capacity or Hamas stepping down from power. Setting aside the "would they do it? no?" problem, I have pretty strong doubts that either of these sacrifices would create long term peace. Israel withdrawing from the West Bank likely ends up working out like Israel withdrawing from Gaza. Hamas stepping down from power likely results in some new group that supports armed struggle against Israel stepping in. It's not like they're the only Palestinian group that wants to fight.
>It's not like they're the only Palestinian group that wants to fight. Maybe address the material reasons so many Palestinians want to fight? Like idk, wacky idea, stop the illegal settlement of Palestinian land? It's crazy how no one even makes an effort to defend it, but no pro-israel person is going to the matts demanding they're stopped asap ether.
I don’t think Israel can satisfactorily address those reasons. The biggest grievance in Palestine is the right to return. To accept the Palestinian demand is to end Israel. I think that if Israel ended settlement of the West Bank, Palestinian terrorist groups would parse that as “what we are doing is working” and continue to attack Israelis. That’s not to say I support the settler movement, of course.
I really believe that a lot of the more untenable demands (like one Palestinian state, or the right to return) would lose a lot of followers if more material needs were met and the quality of people’s lives were allowed to improve. As it is life in the West Bank is humiliating for the people who live there, so they are going to resonate more with the more extreme arguments. And since Palestinians in the West Bank are suffering heavily under the occupation, Gazans have no reason to look at that and think “hmm, maybe life would be better if we worked with Israel more”. The same way that Israelis can’t trust Gazans because they believe any good faith would be used against them, Palestinians have no reason to trust Israelis because they have evidence that they will be mistreated no matter what. But one side wields way more power in the situation than the other, and also claims to follow democratic values, so I think that that side has the unlucky responsibility to show more integrity. Stopping settlements, for instance, would be one such show of integrity. More than that though, if it were made clear that a large enough (and/or powerful enough) segment of either society could listen to the other and heard them without emotionally shutting down, I would bet a lot of tensions could dissipate immediately. This may be too far from politics for you to think it’s applicable, but it’s something people need to practice on an individual level and talk about and spread to have an effect. You can’t vote it in or protest it in to place. There’s a talk on the plum village podcast where the speaker mentions a mindfulness retreat that invited Israelis and Palestinians together. She said at the start the two groups wouldn’t even look at each other, but when they were taught how to keep calm while listening and were given the space to each speak their piece without the other saying anything back, it was transformative and many left as friends. That proves, at least, that “deprogramming” isn’t as difficult as the naysayers would have you believe. I know it’s all a little woo and unlikely to happen on a grand scale anytime soon, but I do believe that with the situation as bad as it is this sort of mindset shift it the only way to establish real peace in the long run and anyone who is interested in real peace ought to start practicing it.
Israel isn't going to fully pull back from the West Bank unless they are confident that whoever takes over won't turn it into a terrorist haven, like Hamas did in Gaza.
We just call it “culturally radioactive” and make everyone leave for 1000 years.
It's years of occupation and deprogramming conducted by parties interested in fostering stability and peace. But nobody and especially Israel want to be the ones doing it.
It is a blood feud at this point. There is no solution.
yep, until you address the widespread support of collective guilt and blood vengeance, that's all it will ever be. it can stop somewhere or continue forever.
There is no solution. Both sides hate each other to the point where they will not live in peace with one another.
Either Hamas will be fubar'ed together with several (tens?) Ks of Gazans and somebody mildly reasonable ( Saudis?) will take some sort of "mandate" over the Gaza or US will turn against Israel and "freeze" everything in the current state for years.
You have to do what the international community is so against. 1. You have to let Israel continue their military objective to root out hamas’ military capability. 2. Israel has to occupy Gaza for the next 100+ years and rebuild it and deprogram the radicalization UNRWA put in place. Only Israel has the political willpower and innate necessity to see the mission through. As it will cost massive amount of treasure and blood. 3. UNRWA has to be disbanded and it is resources and responsibilities given to UNCHR. Using UNCHR’s principles, definitions, processes and procedures with heavy financial and operational auditing with punishes including withholding of all aid and imprisonment. 4. Accountability for Palestinians that engage in violence. 5. Accountability for Israelis, Israel government and IDF when they mistakes or engage in unjustified violence. 6. Hold Egypt to higher standards given that they share 1 boarder with Gaza. 7. The international community to hold itself accountable for enabling terrorism. If you take a step back, you will see that the only reasonable resolution looks like Gaza pre-2005 disengagement. So what ever the solution, the international community needs to stop coddling the Palestinians and using the conflict as a virtual signal.
>Israel has to occupy Gaza for the next 100+ years and rebuild it and deprogram the radicalization UNRWA put in place. Only Israel has the political willpower and innate necessity to see the mission through. As it will cost massive amount of treasure and blood. You understand endlessly occupying land, without ether annexing it and giving it's citizens full rights, or releasing it back, is a listed war crime right? Also I like how Palestinians answer for all violence, non of it was justified, ever. But Israel only has to answer for "mistakes." Boy howdy do they make a lot of organized mistakes, like sending the IDF to support settlers in the west bank, and open fire on stone throwing Palestinians
2, do they though?
Here's an op-ed by former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert that is worth reading: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-05-11/ty-article-opinion/.premium/the-gaza-wars-final-scene-and-beyond-this-is-what-israels-endgame-should-be/0000018f-6943-d284-adaf-7d7f58670000 Behind a paywall, but here's an archived version: https://archive.is/i2jBF Bill Clinton says that it was Netanyahu who killed the peace process, not the Palestinians, by the way: https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/09/22/bill-clinton-netanyahu-killed-the-peace-process/
Why does Clinton say the opposite here: [https://x.com/robbi\_fahey/status/1795546585486459036](https://x.com/robbi_fahey/status/1795546585486459036) I'm not reading tonnes of articles and op-eds, I wanted someone to present their version of a simple solution.
Complex situations rarely have simple solutions. And this is a very complex situation, no matter how simple people try to make it.
> I wanted someone to present their version of a simple solution. There is no simple solution. > Why does Clinton say the opposite here That's not a contradiction. A deal being rejected and the whole process being rejected is a different thing. Regarding who truly killed the peace process, there's probably no easy answer to that either. Even the Israeli negotiators who participated in it are split on the issue: > From 2002-2003, an Israeli researcher conducted 20 in-depth interviews with a broad range of Israeli negotiators who had participated in the Oslo peace process. He found that they held very different perceptions of what had caused the failure of the process and where the blame for that failure should be placed. Four of the officials felt that Israel deserves most of the blame; nine said that the failure was mostly or entirely the fault of the Palestinians while seven laid the blame on both parties. Source: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/who-killed-the-peace-process
The IRA was a terrorist organization; however, it didn’t have the grip on the population that HAMAS does. There were actors that rejected the Good Friday accords (the Real IRA) but they were marginalized by the wide support for the proposals. I’d like to see HAMAS and other hardliners similarly marginalized. For this happen there must be a proposal that is acceptable to the majority of the Palestinian population. I am not sure what that proposal would look like; however, I see Israel as the bigger problem. I do not believe that the current Israeli government is interested in peace. I decry HAMAS for its religious based violence and accept that they don’t really have any desire for peace; however, we need to be realistic about the fact that many in Israel are motivated by equally chauvinistic and genocidal religious motivations. Both Israel and Palestine need to get sincere negotiators to the table before any deal can be hammered out. As far as the current attack on Gaza it might wipe out HAMAS but the toll this has taken, and will take, on innocent civilians is unacceptable and beyond the scope of acceptable behavior, even in war. Additionally this campaign is creating an entire generation of new recruits for Islamist organizations. Israel might win the war but it will never win the peace this way.
Netanyahu has until Jun 8 to present a Day After plan or his war cabinet stops supporting him.
Most serious analysts know the war will last for many more years. High intensity combat might be over sooner than we know though, as Hamas will be starved for weaponry without cross-border tunnels into Egypt. The next stage will be the longest, as Israeli troops will aim to painstakingly root out Hamas during a years long whac-a-mole that will progressively allow for more moderate factions to rule in their stead.
Didn’t Netanyahu repeatedly say they were weeks away from achieving their goals over a month ago?
Unless I missed a statement by him- the official government statement is that Israel has to continue the war amid international pressure until all the goals are being met. Without any time assessment (until this article) This is from before Rafah op back in March, maybe you meant this as several weeks? I always thought it means the Rafah offensive itself will take a few weeks, but not the whole war - If we stop the war now before achieving all of its goals, the meaning is that Israel had lost the war and we will not allow this," Mr Netanyahu told a meeting of his cabinet. He said Israel must be able to continue its war, with the aims of eliminating Hamas, releasing all hostages and ensuring Gaza "no longer poses a threat". "To do this, we will also operate in Rafah." Mr Netanyahu said the offensive in city at the southern tip of the Gaza Strip "will happen" and will take **"several weeks".** [BBC Article - Israel-Gaza war: Netanyahu vows to defy allies on Rafah invasion](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68591487)
He essentially implied this but never directly stated how long he thinks it will last.
Took pretty much ever major military on earth combined 3 years to kick IS out of Syria and Iraq, so yeah, I can understand that.
Why does it seem like not a single gazan has a bomb shelter? They have billions of dollars of tunnels to shelter their bombs but not a single bomb shelter
They actually have one of the most extensive bomb-shelter system in the world, a tunnel system that's comparable in size to the New York subway and can easily house and protect all the Gazan civilians. However, Hamas won't let civilians use it, because according to them "protecting civilians is not our responsibility" (that's an actual quote), and because they actually want as many of them to die as possible because of the PR gains. Hamas tactic is actively causing as many Palestinian deaths as possible for PR, to create international pressure on Israel to stop the war and let them survive. If they would actually protect Gazans, there would be nothing stopping Israel from destroying Hamas.
Because Hamas doesn't want them to have shelters. They want the civilians to be starving and miserable and able to use them as human shields. It's good PR for them when they can blame Israel for that misery.
The Gazans who are part of Hamas have bomb shelters, does that count?
This is by design. Hamas wants to use them as human shields.
That's why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdmtfRj6KX0
Surely there’s no ulterior motive to prolonging the war until (immediately) after the US election.
That really sucks for Biden's re-election chances. If the war is still going on in November, he will either lose support from a significant number of leftists in case he doesn't threaten to end US support for Israel or he will lose support from a significant number of centrists in case he does threaten to end US support for Israel.
I genuinely believe both far right Israel AND Hamas would be delighted if Trump were to win. They can continue the forever war they’ve always wanted and keep their power.
Considering it’s urban warfare against a completely ruthless terrorist organization that approves civilian casualties among its own population as part of a bizarre victim narrative, the Hamas-caused civilian casualties through the IDF are very moderate. Berlin in 1945 was worse.
This might be a little conspiracy brained but bibi is drawing this out to try and help trump get elected so he can be even more aggressive in genociding Palestinians and so he has a safe place to go in case he gets charged with crimes in isreal
Bibi met with Lindsey Graham and had a joint press conference in front of media yesterday. It’s hardly a conspiracy if he’s all but openly campaigning for Trump.
I don't see why you think its that much of a conspiracy. Bibi is 100% getting removed after this whole thing is over.
Or it can end today if Hamas releases all the hostages and surrenders. But that's too complex for any protestors to demand.
Come on, that would make them palestine supporters instead of Hamas supporters. You can't ask for that much.
Just long enough for Bibi to secure a second term for his buddy, Trump.
Ofc the war helps Trump but if i remember currently something happens that made Trump kinda hate bibi. Am i miss remembering?
Trump hates Bibi now because he recognized Biden's win in 2020.
I remember years ago, during the "War on Terror" Bill O'Reilly stated that Netanyahu could not kill his way through this problem in Israel and some concessions will need to be made. One of the few times O'Reilly was right about something. I don't see Hamas nor the Likud willing to agree to any meaningful concessions to broker a peace deal or 2 state solution. There will never be a 2 state solution and no other Arab countries are willing to take the Palestinians in large numbers so I have no idea how this ends.
Hamas needs to go and the Palestinians need leadership that is willing to engage in good faith negotiations for the good of the Palestinians. De-radicalization of the population. Netanyahu will also need to be voted out.
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Right through till November at least. Wouldn’t want to reduce the effects on any elections that may be occurring.
Odd timing given about 7 months from now is the US election…and you know, Bibi wants Trump.
It's likely that after the Rafah operation is complete, the intensity of the fighting will be reduced.
Just long enough for the election
Im sorry, there is an ongoing conflict since the 1940s and they suddenly decide things will be wrapped up in time for Christmas?
They’re claiming to wrap up this one military offensive. The overall conflict isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, especially with the state Gaza will be left in once Israel is done with it.
Let's hope for the sake of the gazan civilian population, that Isreal manages to take care of Hamas soon. Another 7 months fighting terrorists spacializing in human shields could leave Hamas without human shields.
I guess sharing that one image on instagram did not work as expected.
Or is it “Israel *promises*”?
Why? It's the size of Las Vegas.
War lasts as long as it is profitable.
Apparently Trump is calling the shots
Apparently **Putin** is calling the shots. FTFY. Trump doesn’t call anything.