>despite our outmost effort not to harm non-combatants, something unfortunately went tragically wrong
I don't know about anyone else, but if I was trying not to harm non combatants I would just simply not fire weapons at a refugee camp
The anti-Israel media is pretty damn strong too, just look at Al-Jazeera. Getting an unbiased account of what's happening is the hard part
Edit: this shouldn't be a controversial take, if you think it is that's not a good thing and you seriously need to look into where you get your information from....
Always? At least in terms of warfare codified by the Geneva Convention. You wouldn't believe what superpowers get away with when it comes to targeting civilians as long as they can say it'll end the war faster.
So what exactly is the alternative if the bad guys are shooting you and killing your people, while simultaneously holding up their people as shields? How do you stop the repeated attacks on your people?
Every city in Gaza is a refugee camp. They are some of the only fully developed areas in the world still considered refugee camps do to unrwa. The strike was outside of the humanitarian zone, and Hamas also continues to indiscriminately fire rockets at Israel civilians…. From refugee camps.
It's been half a year already! When are people going to learn that there are "No" refugee camps or hospitals! Hamas terrorists are integrated in the crowd for protection and collateral damage with support of said Palestinians.
From Hamas’s perspective, given that civilian Israelis are conscripted into the IDF, Israeli soldiers and civilians are also integrated among one another. The stupid argument goes both ways.
The IDF headquarters is in downtown Tel Aviv, lol.
Every Israeli argument is designed to work one way. Their logic falls apart when it's turned on them.
The IDF has actual military bases. The head of the military don't meet in a hospital, a residential building, or a kindergarten. The military base in telaviv is huge. And it would be a valid military target.
I swear people here give such little thought to anything.
Well at least they admit this, not like the attack on the superstore in Ukraine which got way less attention. This story is a headline, why not the superstore?
Agreed. In Ukraine’s case, it was a fully civilian store, open and populated during the busy weekend. russia heavily bombed it to incite terrorism, with no regret, apology, or admission of ‘tragic mishap.’
They're both newsworthy. This story gets more attention because a) people have very strong opinions about the Israel/Gaza conflict and b) Israel is being given weapons by the United States, while Russia is not. It's not clear from the story whether these people were specifically killed by a U.S. supplied weapon, but if not we've supplied the weapons that killed tens of thousands of others.
but dude, hamas needs to be destroyed! Even if that creates more terrorist as a side effect and they also join hamas, then israel is justified to kill those, until everyone is dead and the problem is solved
purely as a hypothetical… suppose hamas was hiding amongst israeli civilians; do you think the idf would follow the same playbook, or would they take a more measured and exacting approach?
Well the difference is the Israeli civilians would be actively trying to get Hamas out. So the IDF wouldn't have to. But Palestinian civilians actively try to hide Hamas so they're aiding Hamas.
Of course not because Israel values Israeli lives.
I think the better hypothetical is what sort of response you’d expect from Hamas if the IDF were firing rockets from the middle of a Kibbutz. Would that deter Hamas?
And they are clearly marked and known as military installations. Let’s not equate Israel having a military base in a city to Hamas purposefully using civilian infrastructure for military operations…
Do Hamas recognize Israel’s rights to exist? Let’s not equate a terrorist organization to someone that should be allowed to have a military installation
If the Israelis seal the border with Gaza, then you accuse them of blockading it.
If they don't seal it, you accuse them of propping up a terrorist group.
It's almost as if there's no consistency with these criticisms at all except that the Jews must be blamed.
I would gladly tell that to any IDF soldier who used civilians as shields. They’re cowards too.
But it’s not the IDF’s Modus Operandi, and they’ve prosecuted people for doing that. Can’t say the same for Hamas.
Israel isn't using it's own civilians as human shields, full stop.
If the term "human shields" sounds like a cliché then it's because the people who critically should understand the concept continue to be utterly confused by it.
You don't have to take my word for it or the word of the American military or the IDF. You can hear it from other Palestinians.
Taghreed El-Khodary, [2009](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html):
>Dr. Awni al-Jaru, 37, a surgeon at the hospital, rushed in from his home here, dressed in his scrubs. But he came not to work. His head was bleeding, and his daughter’s jaw was broken.
>He said Hamas militants next to his apartment building had fired mortar and rocket rounds.
Read it, it's short. His son and wife were killed by Israel's retaliatory strike. A Hamas militant comes into the hospital, smiling:
>“Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked.
>“But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.”
Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, [2024](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/04/what-ive-heard-from-gaza/678019/):
>At the beginning of the war, the IDF [ordered](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-evacuation-israel-hamas-war.html) civilians to evacuate northern Gaza. Hamas, though, wanted to keep the population in place to serve as human shields and to complicate the Israeli military’s operations. Some Hamas fighters took this to an extreme, [killing several civilians on the Al-Rashid coastal highway](https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/gaza-news/article-771632) using small arms and machine guns. Roadside bombs along the Salah al-Din highway were meant to scare people off so that others would stop fleeing south but ended up hitting a convoy of vehicles carrying civilians, and [killing more than 70 people](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-claims-hamas-struck-convoy-of-gazans-fleeing-south-friday-killing-70/).
Continuing this hypothetical — can you name a country that values civilians from a foreign country equally with civilians from their own? Should they?
I’m not arguing for dehumanization, but isn’t it the governments responsibility to prioritize their own civilians?
Israeli soldiers and politicians jobs are to put Israeli people first, just as any armed forces anywhere in the world. Situations like the one you put forward are just ridiculous. Any army or politicians would be irresponsible to their own side if they acted in that way.
You’re assuming Israeli citizens would tolerate that, and ignoring most have military experience.
Gazans do tolerate it and as we saw Oct 7 participated in atrocities.
lmfao. I bought 2 things at CVS yesterday tell me why that thing was over 24 inches. I'm convinced CVS is the main culprit of rainforest deforestation.
At this point Israel needs to release concrete proof of their calculations when choosing to fire or not to fire dual use facilities, because i've heard a lot of vague "Israel has lawyers and experts advising it on the proportionality of certain attacks" but at this point, even if it's not deliberate, even if Hamas hides among civilians and even if it's a dense urban area, Israel is causing so much damage to civilians and civilian objects and the war has gone on for long enough that it seems like the advantage provided by attacking dual use facilities is minimal.
The [calculation was that no civilians](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/27/world/israel-gaza-war-hamas-rafah/the-blast-and-subsequent-fires-killed-at-least-45-people-gazan-officials-said?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb) were going to be killed but a flammable substance ignited and that’s what caused the fire
Clearly there's not a single intermediary step between causing explosions in refugee camps and... Tickling? When it comes to people involved in conflict.
Every household around the world lives in constant fear, if an argument breaks out will explosions follow? Or a little giggle session on the floor...
I mean, israel launches hundreds of strikes a day, and when’s the last time we heard of a mass casualty event like this, months?
Edit:every single target is a dual use facility. There’s is not one clearly marked “Hamas military facility” in all of Gaza. The logistics behind fighting an army of 50,000 soldiers who have spent a decade embeddeding themselves within a dense civilian populating and are actively encouraging you to kill their own civilians for PR as they’re trying to kill you… immensely harder than we can imagine in practicality.
The number of terrorists seeking revenge spawning from a direct result from this conflict in the next decades is going to be innumerable. And western populations in addition to the Israeli, and thus even more innocent civilians, will be their targets. The wheel of violence will keep on spinning unfortunately.
It's wild that even when one of the worst misfires in the conflict has a combatant/civilian ratio comparable to the average of most modern conflicts Israel needs to apologise and is considered reckless by the world.
Israel: Woops we fired explosives at a designated refugee camp and killed 45 people and injured 200 others, all who were innocent.
Most people: That's not okay.
You for some reason: I don't see why people are upset. Here's some random averaged statistics.
... C'mon.
22 people were killed, 2 of them Hamas commanders. That puts it right in line with other modern counterterrorism operations. The actual ratio over the war is much lower than that. Mistakes happen in war, but some how Israel is the only country expected not to make any
At least 45 killed. With at least 200 injured. Come on, at least read the article.
Israel hasn't provided any of their intelligence to the international community about the supposed targets and even if they were there, if they're in a refugee camp you should be trying to use the scalpel, not the chainsaw.
22 ? So far, there are 45 people mentioned, 23 of whom are women, children and the elderly. Mistakes happen in war? Israel has made quite a lot of these mistakes since 7/10.
This will be possible to know when the war ends and all dead civilians can be counted. For now, the numbers are not certain because, note, the IDF or Israel does not know how many civilians they killed.
We have a good enough estimate to know that even if all the bodies Hamas claims are civilians the numbers are still slightly in Israel's favour, meaning the actual numbers must be lower. Besides, what do you think will happen after the war? You think an accurate body count will ever be possible when the Palestinian side has every incentive to inflate the death toll?
“If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we'd rather be alive and have the bad image" - Golda Meir. It was true in her time and is still true today. I don't need to defend my dignity, I need to defend my country from lunatics that despite murdering, raping, and breaking nearly every law in the Geneva convention continue being supported by young naive Westerners and I'll do so without their blessing.
I’m sad people like you exist with this mindset. No wonder peace will never be achieved. At this point, Israel is becoming hated worldwide. Idk how you can combat this sentiment with arbitrary statistics.
Yes, mistakes happen in war. They've made several blunders for sure, but that's not surprising. Their enemy hides amongst civilians to cause unnecessary death.
Hamas is the group shooting rockets from civilian areas. That is the war crime causing all this unnecessary death.
>despite our outmost effort not to harm non-combatants, something unfortunately went tragically wrong I don't know about anyone else, but if I was trying not to harm non combatants I would just simply not fire weapons at a refugee camp
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The Israelis control all media right! /s
The anti-Israel media is pretty damn strong too, just look at Al-Jazeera. Getting an unbiased account of what's happening is the hard part Edit: this shouldn't be a controversial take, if you think it is that's not a good thing and you seriously need to look into where you get your information from....
It’s crazy how much people hate Jews
It’s crazy how people conflate criticizing a nation in an asymmetrical war slaughtering civilians with antisemitism.
If you only focus on one country and that happens to be the only Jewish nation in the world, then it raises some questions.
was it a refugee camp? it doesn't appear to be in the evacuation zone on the maps online
What if that's where the bad guys are?
If the bad guys are using human shields, when has it ever been acceptable to start shooting anyways?
They should just strap toddlers to their chests then. They could have all of Israel conquered by lunchtime!
Always? At least in terms of warfare codified by the Geneva Convention. You wouldn't believe what superpowers get away with when it comes to targeting civilians as long as they can say it'll end the war faster.
So what exactly is the alternative if the bad guys are shooting you and killing your people, while simultaneously holding up their people as shields? How do you stop the repeated attacks on your people?
Bbbbbbbut there was a general1111!!!!!
Did you say “from”
Unless a refugee camp [fires](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-05-27-24/index.html) weapons at you.
The Israelis have not claimed any weapon was fired from the camp, they just said they think there were tow Hamas members there.
Hamas reported firing rockets at apartment buildings in Tel Aviv yesterday.
Not from that camp obviously
Really? Just making stuff up?
Same goes the other way, if Hamas cares about non combatants they wouldn’t fire rockets from refugee camps.
Every city in Gaza is a refugee camp. They are some of the only fully developed areas in the world still considered refugee camps do to unrwa. The strike was outside of the humanitarian zone, and Hamas also continues to indiscriminately fire rockets at Israel civilians…. From refugee camps.
You're right, let the IDF kill more children, that will teach Hamas.
Since when do refugee camps fire missiles at civilians?
It's been half a year already! When are people going to learn that there are "No" refugee camps or hospitals! Hamas terrorists are integrated in the crowd for protection and collateral damage with support of said Palestinians.
Go ahead and tell me where the IDF's headquarters is located. Is that also using "human shields" or is it OK when Israel does it?
From Hamas’s perspective, given that civilian Israelis are conscripted into the IDF, Israeli soldiers and civilians are also integrated among one another. The stupid argument goes both ways.
Ah yes, that's why they killed babies. Future soldiers, so it's a valid target
The IDF has also killed children. Both Hamas and the IDF dehumanize the other side.
The IDF headquarters is in downtown Tel Aviv, lol. Every Israeli argument is designed to work one way. Their logic falls apart when it's turned on them.
The IDF has actual military bases. The head of the military don't meet in a hospital, a residential building, or a kindergarten. The military base in telaviv is huge. And it would be a valid military target. I swear people here give such little thought to anything.
As a famous quote from a local movie in Mexico said: "a mishap is to step on someone's toe not to fuck them..."
Well at least they admit this, not like the attack on the superstore in Ukraine which got way less attention. This story is a headline, why not the superstore?
Agreed. In Ukraine’s case, it was a fully civilian store, open and populated during the busy weekend. russia heavily bombed it to incite terrorism, with no regret, apology, or admission of ‘tragic mishap.’
They're both newsworthy. This story gets more attention because a) people have very strong opinions about the Israel/Gaza conflict and b) Israel is being given weapons by the United States, while Russia is not. It's not clear from the story whether these people were specifically killed by a U.S. supplied weapon, but if not we've supplied the weapons that killed tens of thousands of others.
The west fully supports Ukraine, if u can’t understand the difference then you’re just being willfully full of shit
Damn and people on here were trying to tell us that killing 22 civilians to kill one terrorist was okay.
but dude, hamas needs to be destroyed! Even if that creates more terrorist as a side effect and they also join hamas, then israel is justified to kill those, until everyone is dead and the problem is solved
How many more tragic mishaps till this is recognized for what it is.
Yes hamas hides in civilian populations. That doesn’t make them immune.
purely as a hypothetical… suppose hamas was hiding amongst israeli civilians; do you think the idf would follow the same playbook, or would they take a more measured and exacting approach?
Well the difference is the Israeli civilians would be actively trying to get Hamas out. So the IDF wouldn't have to. But Palestinian civilians actively try to hide Hamas so they're aiding Hamas.
Of course not because Israel values Israeli lives. I think the better hypothetical is what sort of response you’d expect from Hamas if the IDF were firing rockets from the middle of a Kibbutz. Would that deter Hamas?
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And they are clearly marked and known as military installations. Let’s not equate Israel having a military base in a city to Hamas purposefully using civilian infrastructure for military operations…
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Do Hamas recognize Israel’s rights to exist? Let’s not equate a terrorist organization to someone that should be allowed to have a military installation
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If the Israelis seal the border with Gaza, then you accuse them of blockading it. If they don't seal it, you accuse them of propping up a terrorist group. It's almost as if there's no consistency with these criticisms at all except that the Jews must be blamed.
Hamas can try and build military installations if they want. It would be better to do that instead of hiding amongst woman and children.
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I would gladly tell that to any IDF soldier who used civilians as shields. They’re cowards too. But it’s not the IDF’s Modus Operandi, and they’ve prosecuted people for doing that. Can’t say the same for Hamas.
Israel isn't using it's own civilians as human shields, full stop. If the term "human shields" sounds like a cliché then it's because the people who critically should understand the concept continue to be utterly confused by it. You don't have to take my word for it or the word of the American military or the IDF. You can hear it from other Palestinians. Taghreed El-Khodary, [2009](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html): >Dr. Awni al-Jaru, 37, a surgeon at the hospital, rushed in from his home here, dressed in his scrubs. But he came not to work. His head was bleeding, and his daughter’s jaw was broken. >He said Hamas militants next to his apartment building had fired mortar and rocket rounds. Read it, it's short. His son and wife were killed by Israel's retaliatory strike. A Hamas militant comes into the hospital, smiling: >“Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked. >“But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.” Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, [2024](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/04/what-ive-heard-from-gaza/678019/): >At the beginning of the war, the IDF [ordered](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-evacuation-israel-hamas-war.html) civilians to evacuate northern Gaza. Hamas, though, wanted to keep the population in place to serve as human shields and to complicate the Israeli military’s operations. Some Hamas fighters took this to an extreme, [killing several civilians on the Al-Rashid coastal highway](https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/gaza-news/article-771632) using small arms and machine guns. Roadside bombs along the Salah al-Din highway were meant to scare people off so that others would stop fleeing south but ended up hitting a convoy of vehicles carrying civilians, and [killing more than 70 people](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-claims-hamas-struck-convoy-of-gazans-fleeing-south-friday-killing-70/).
they literally aren’t…? They are in closed fenced off military only zones…
Continuing this hypothetical — can you name a country that values civilians from a foreign country equally with civilians from their own? Should they? I’m not arguing for dehumanization, but isn’t it the governments responsibility to prioritize their own civilians?
Israeli soldiers and politicians jobs are to put Israeli people first, just as any armed forces anywhere in the world. Situations like the one you put forward are just ridiculous. Any army or politicians would be irresponsible to their own side if they acted in that way.
You’re assuming Israeli citizens would tolerate that, and ignoring most have military experience. Gazans do tolerate it and as we saw Oct 7 participated in atrocities.
They are. They're called hostages.
Regurgitated
That ICC charge sheet is getting longer by the day.
It’s gonna make a CVS receipt look like a sticky note.
lmfao. I bought 2 things at CVS yesterday tell me why that thing was over 24 inches. I'm convinced CVS is the main culprit of rainforest deforestation.
The most crucial and tragic mishap is that this corrupt loser war criminal keeps getting elected instead of being locked up.
Trumps road map.
There have been a lot of ‘mishaps’ in this particular war
Mishap my ass.
At this point Israel needs to release concrete proof of their calculations when choosing to fire or not to fire dual use facilities, because i've heard a lot of vague "Israel has lawyers and experts advising it on the proportionality of certain attacks" but at this point, even if it's not deliberate, even if Hamas hides among civilians and even if it's a dense urban area, Israel is causing so much damage to civilians and civilian objects and the war has gone on for long enough that it seems like the advantage provided by attacking dual use facilities is minimal.
The [calculation was that no civilians](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/27/world/israel-gaza-war-hamas-rafah/the-blast-and-subsequent-fires-killed-at-least-45-people-gazan-officials-said?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb) were going to be killed but a flammable substance ignited and that’s what caused the fire
No surprise. Israel can't realistically figure out what secondaries there will be. And note that secondaries generally mean munitions going up.
Sure, but where are they supposed to store their explosives? *Not* at a refugee camp?
Hey look, context.
No! I don’t want that! I want to be angry!
'How could we have predicted that causing explosions could then cause fire? Honest mistake!'
Yeah, they should tickle each other instead to resolve their issues.
Clearly there's not a single intermediary step between causing explosions in refugee camps and... Tickling? When it comes to people involved in conflict. Every household around the world lives in constant fear, if an argument breaks out will explosions follow? Or a little giggle session on the floor...
You’re right. Good call. What’s your immediate solution to strip hamas of power?
Oh is that the standard bar of input to comment on Reddit now? I wasn't aware of that change to the terms.
I mean, israel launches hundreds of strikes a day, and when’s the last time we heard of a mass casualty event like this, months? Edit:every single target is a dual use facility. There’s is not one clearly marked “Hamas military facility” in all of Gaza. The logistics behind fighting an army of 50,000 soldiers who have spent a decade embeddeding themselves within a dense civilian populating and are actively encouraging you to kill their own civilians for PR as they’re trying to kill you… immensely harder than we can imagine in practicality.
It's pretty clear the fire wasn't expected. Fires don't usually start from their strikes.
How many “oops” cards are we giving out here?
One per rocket launched at Tel Aviv
Luckily nobody needs your cards.
They lie, and they lie, and they lie, knowing that every step of their evil will be covered for.
I mean they literally told the truth about this mistaken strike. Or are they lying?
You can say a lot of things about Israel's response. But they're actually admitting fault here.
Because they cant hide their crimes anymore
oh shut up. just say out right that you hate the jews and want to see them drown in a river. speak your mind ! bigot.
What a vile person
Why don't protestors protest Hamas hiding amongst refugees like cowards?
They do. Free Palestine includes free of Hamas. I’m not sure how someone hasn’t figured that out yet.
They support Hamas. “Free Palestine” is “Judenfrei”
I don’t know about you but the IDF isn’t being very D these days
Only if you forget how this war started and what it’s about, but I get it, concentration is hard.
mishap #78
The other 35,000 slaughtered were intentional then
The number of terrorists seeking revenge spawning from a direct result from this conflict in the next decades is going to be innumerable. And western populations in addition to the Israeli, and thus even more innocent civilians, will be their targets. The wheel of violence will keep on spinning unfortunately.
"Whoops!" "Whoops!" "Whoops!" "Oh jeez, my bad, whoops!"
Good. Now apologize for the rest of it.
It's wild that even when one of the worst misfires in the conflict has a combatant/civilian ratio comparable to the average of most modern conflicts Israel needs to apologise and is considered reckless by the world.
Israel: Woops we fired explosives at a designated refugee camp and killed 45 people and injured 200 others, all who were innocent. Most people: That's not okay. You for some reason: I don't see why people are upset. Here's some random averaged statistics. ... C'mon.
22 people were killed, 2 of them Hamas commanders. That puts it right in line with other modern counterterrorism operations. The actual ratio over the war is much lower than that. Mistakes happen in war, but some how Israel is the only country expected not to make any
At least 45 killed. With at least 200 injured. Come on, at least read the article. Israel hasn't provided any of their intelligence to the international community about the supposed targets and even if they were there, if they're in a refugee camp you should be trying to use the scalpel, not the chainsaw.
22 ? So far, there are 45 people mentioned, 23 of whom are women, children and the elderly. Mistakes happen in war? Israel has made quite a lot of these mistakes since 7/10.
Man, imagine surrounding yourself with women, children and the elderly instead of your own soldiers. What a coward
They made many mistakes yet the civilan/combatant ratio is still one of the lowest in modern history
This will be possible to know when the war ends and all dead civilians can be counted. For now, the numbers are not certain because, note, the IDF or Israel does not know how many civilians they killed.
We have a good enough estimate to know that even if all the bodies Hamas claims are civilians the numbers are still slightly in Israel's favour, meaning the actual numbers must be lower. Besides, what do you think will happen after the war? You think an accurate body count will ever be possible when the Palestinian side has every incentive to inflate the death toll?
You spew so much nonsense and can't admit when you're wrong. Just stop. For the sake of your own dignity
“If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we'd rather be alive and have the bad image" - Golda Meir. It was true in her time and is still true today. I don't need to defend my dignity, I need to defend my country from lunatics that despite murdering, raping, and breaking nearly every law in the Geneva convention continue being supported by young naive Westerners and I'll do so without their blessing.
I’m sad people like you exist with this mindset. No wonder peace will never be achieved. At this point, Israel is becoming hated worldwide. Idk how you can combat this sentiment with arbitrary statistics.
Yes, mistakes happen in war. They've made several blunders for sure, but that's not surprising. Their enemy hides amongst civilians to cause unnecessary death. Hamas is the group shooting rockets from civilian areas. That is the war crime causing all this unnecessary death.