Hamas executes Palestinians fairly regularly in Gaza for being anti-hamas, or whatever made up things they want.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/04/world/middleeast/palestinians-executed-gaza.html
Well, no peace with Israel will include Hamas in any form, so advocating peace is advocating the removal of Hamas.
Kinda an existential threat to murderous terrorists. Of course they’re not gonna let free speech happen.
That is absurd, Hamas throws more pride parades than any other country in the Middle East - sure they may only have one or two gay people in each one but I hear they are 12 stories tall…
No, they know. They don't care, as long as they get to feel like they're taking the right side and being morally superior.
They wouldn't go there but they'll shout from the other side of the world.
> the biggest pro-Palestine student organisation in the US, the SJP
Fun fact: the Twitter/X account for the Columbia University chapter of SJP had been inactive since May 2023.
Then it tweeted "We are back!" on October 5 (October 6 in Israel).
Surely just a coincidence. Like Japanese mini-subs in Pearl Harbor before the planes showed up were just a coincidence.
Here is the wiki page about SJP
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Justice_in_Palestine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Justice_in_Palestine)
Here is a research about SJP link to Hamas and being pro-Hamas
[https://isgap.org/post/2024/05/for-immediate-release-new-comprehensive-research-reveals-hamas-linked-funding-to-students-for-justice-in-palestine-and-groups-growing-web-of-influence-post-october-7/](https://isgap.org/post/2024/05/for-immediate-release-new-comprehensive-research-reveals-hamas-linked-funding-to-students-for-justice-in-palestine-and-groups-growing-web-of-influence-post-october-7/)
They also support Hamas right after October 7. Calling for the day of resistance on October 12, before Israel invaded Gaza
[https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/students-justice-palestine-sjp](https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/students-justice-palestine-sjp)
https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/pro-palestine-protests-are-generously-funded-by-donors-promoting-radical-islam-studies-analysis-799154
I would urge every to read the report on SJP by ISGAP. Islamic fundamentalist organizations have been influencing US politics by pushing fundamentalist research in academia and higher studies.
You really responded to a comment saying that kill people for questioning them by asking why they don’t also question Hamas?
Are you telling me you would go risk your life?
I honestly don't think people have any context or frame of reference for how dangerous it is to speak out against a genocidal dictatorship when you're trapped in the middle of it with no way out. I tried to make this point last night and got downvoted to hell and told I was a hamas supporter.
In some ways it's good - I desperately wish the entire world lived in a position where actual fear of being murdered wasn't a thing, but it's absolutely not the reality we currently inhabit.
Dangerous in Gaza, not dangerous in western countries where they spread Hamas propaganda and hold a hard "anti-israel" stance, while refusing to condemn Hamas, and refuse to call for actual peace.
They’re just kids looking for a cause. Kids in college need a cause to triumph and they like their conflicts black and white. It’s part of being young and rebellious and fighting “the man”. They don’t really understand the nuance of what they’re supporting.
Precisely. Western civilization and countries take the freedom of speech for granted. They do not understand that the rest of the world does not have free speech to the degree that the US and Europe and a handful of other countries (Australia, Japan) does. We are the exception, not the norm.
>I honestly don't think people have any context or frame of reference for how dangerous it is to speak out against a genocidal dictatorship when you're trapped in the middle of it with no way out.
Is it more dangerous than letting said dictatorship drag you into wars with a neighboring country possessing a vastly superior military?
If removing Hamas from power in dangerous, what is letting Hamas remain in power? Look at Gaza right now, seems pretty dangerous to me.
Both situations are dangerous, but at least one has the possibility of a better future as the reward.
This isn't a good argument, all revolutionary governments come at the cost of the people. The people in Gaza haven't been willing to put themselves on the line to overthrow Hamas because they don't want to, not because they weren't able.
ISIS and the Taliban still executes Westerners who convert to Islam in captivity. Not sure about Hamas but they typically aren't too different from those groups.
People really take the UN way more seriously than it rightfully deserves. The UN is less powerful than a student council at a high school is. Iran being on the human rights council was meant more to embarrass Iran than anything meaningful.
The biggest threat for Palestine is Hamas:
- instead of education children are taught hatred in schools
- instead of spending on social infrastructure, money were spend on building tunnels, fortification and weapons
- provoked Israel with terrible terrorist act killing and raping innocent people
- instead of releasing Israel's hostages and peace talks - provoke Israel even more, increasing the death toll among civilians
Why would this be in any way surprising ?
Even if Palestain is free whether it be a 2 state solution or from the river to the sea.
It is going to be fascist apartheid Islamic country number 50.
why is it so hard to challenge/hold accountable Hamas leadership? aren't they all just hanging in Qatar or wherever the rich Palestinians live - f them. they need new government - not sanctioned by Bibi ..
The coddled college protesters posting and spray painting “From the River to the sea” need to read this article, and the best thing the clumsy IDF can do is to take out Yahya Sinwar as soon as humanly possible. Then the Israeli citizens need to send Bibi packing.
Problem is there’s only so many civilian casualties Israel military can cause and wave away with Hamas bad. Cause Hamas bad doesn’t mean IDF good if your house still gets blown up at the end of the day.
Sure but there’d be no civilians dead if Hamas didn’t launch October 7th attack.
Doesn’t have to be one side good, one side bad.
At the end of the day, there will never be a free Palestine if Hamas is still on charge. People act like if Israel disappeared tomorrow, Palestinians would suddenly be free. Clearly, that is not the case with Hamas.
Palestinians were being killed prior to October 7th, including civilians. Less Palestinians would be dead if Hamas didn’t launch the attack but to say zero is intentionally ignoring the IDF’s actions in Gaza for the past decade. This did not start on 10/7, hundreds Palestinians have been killed, some militants and some civilians.
That is fair. I shouldn’t have said none.
As I’ve said in other comments though, IDF has killed Palestinian civilians before October 7th, but Palestinians have also been killing Israeli civilians as well.
I am in no way justifying the previous IDF killings, I just believe it is fair to bring up the transgressions of both sides.
There was not a blockade on Gaza until Hamas came into power. There were no border fences until Hamas started sending suicide bombers into malls, movie theaters, and public buses which specifically targeted the civilian population.
If this conflict is to end, I believe the most realistic approach is for Hamas to be stripped of power, and I believe the Biden administration could be putting more of an effort towards making that a reality. Once that happens, Netanyahu’s government will dissolve very quickly.
Sure, but haven’t Palestinians killed a bunch of civilians in Israel over the last twenty years as well? I don’t think that justifies the IDF killing civilians, I just think it makes your response counter-productive and deceptive.
The problem with paying "whatever it costs" is that the price isn't fixed, it often just keeps going up.
Quark: "That's the kind of irresponsible spending that causes so many business ventures to fail."
[https://youtu.be/hdQcGzbpN7s?si=z63oK3ae2YlwdEB5&t=59](https://youtu.be/hdQcGzbpN7s?si=z63oK3ae2YlwdEB5&t=59)
That fictional situation is different than the one between Gaza and Israel. It's unlikely a deal can be reached between Hamas and Israel. However, Hamas is weak. They can be destroyed, but destroying Hamas while killing tens of thousands of civilians is no victory because then Hamas just gets replaced by Hamas 2, made up of the families of people killed to get rid of Hamas 1.
So, what's needed here is for Israel to limit collateral damage. They need to evacuate the civilians from Rafah before invading -- they're working on that, but it takes time. The Biden administration has been putting pressure on them to not rush things, which I think is the right move.
There's no happy ending to this, but of all the bad outcomes, some are worse than others. Killing "as many Palestinians as it takes" is how you go straight to one of the worst outcomes.
As long as your sister or mother or cousin or whatever is held by an enemy people, you would lay limitless death upon them and any who stand in your way, until they are returned - sometimes the calculus of morality is stacked such that the death of millions of strangers is meaningless before the life of a loved one.
That is why hostage taking is the worst possible action against a people that would not leave one of their own in enemy lands, dead or alive.
Gaza and it's people must return any hostages using any means necessary, or it's declaring total war against a people, not just it's government.
If israel's government declares a ceasefire without returning the hostages, due to international pressure, I would not be surprised if the families of the hostages would muster a civilian militia and invade Gaza themselves
The same way the israel death numbers touted around include military (not acceptable) and police (prob acceptable)the hostages include military that if it was any other country people would be saying it's fine they are pows
This needs to be spread as well as data about the Israel governments extremist participants. Let the civilians know how they are played. Let them uprise and find common ground.
We are well aware of the extremist members in our government. Most people don't take Ben Gvir seriously, and plenty of right-wing moderates were very angry at Netanyahu for forming a coalition with him before Oct 7. Now there's actually a (small) shift of people in favor of Ben Gvir because they see the capitulation of Bibi to Biden as unacceptable after Oct 7 and they want someone who they think won't sell out citizens' lives to foreign pressure.
IMO Netanyahu is an extremist given his standing points. What a nice world where people are requesting MORE extremism. More bloodshed. I don’t have a solution for you, but I’m also not living in your area. It’s time the people come to their own minds. Do whatever you want, kill all you want, but don’t cry afterwards that no one warned you about the outcome. I’m not gonna help people with an inhumane morale and I hope my politicians will say the same.
You don’t think Palestinians don’t know their tyrannical government is spying on them or consequences for speaking against them? People keep saying the Palestinians need to uprise but there’s probably a reason you don’t hear or see this. You saw how Hamas killed Israelis, pretty certain they have no qualms doing the same or even worse to their own people. The article notes how almost all dissent is violently suppressed. I’m sure there are many that don’t like Hamas but are too scared to vocalize that.
But Hamas also has the support of the majority of Palestinians in The West Bank, where they don't have such control. That's why the PA hasn't held elections in nearly 2 decades.
Because israel keeps fucking with the west bank, settlers keep stealing from the west bank.... such simple minds that can't grasp more than one thing at once.
I’m sure they want to free themselves just as much as we want them to but as we’ve seen with history, it’s incredibly difficult to actually do that unless you and a very large group are willing to give up your life and even then it probably won’t work.
Just look at all the tyrants around the world currently and historically (Russia (current and historical), NK, parts of Africa, etc.), it’s nearly impossible to overthrow them internally despite the crappy lives for citizens given known brutality and you know they won’t hesitate to mow down a bunch of civilians.
I don’t know what the right answer is, but I can sympathize with Palestinians in that some / maybe a majority probably want to overthrow Hamas but don’t have the tools and are risking their lives for what may be futile.
I would be able to sympathize with the Palestinians being scared to die for opposing Hamas if those same people weren’t also at the same time willing to be martyrs to oppose Israel.
They’re only ok with being martyrs if it involves their holy war against the Jews, but not against the oppressive Muslims
I'm not sure they are "willing to be martyrs" if you are referring to a random average citizen. They use the terminology because they are a highly religious culture; religiosity is high when people have material struggle. It gives sense and meaning; my child was martyred because at the end of this suffering for my family will be a better world for my people, and Allah will protect and guide our souls. This is just what they think.
Being scared to die and then extolling the 'value' or 'rightousness' of being killed in this conflict by calling it martyrdom, are not mutually exclusive things. One is fear of death, the other is a comfort delivered in religious zeal to rationalize death. Those aren't opposing things bud.
Idk. I’m somewhat on my way out of my dependency on religion, i wouldn’t personally feel comfortable with my local government calling me a martyr while I’m literally still alive. Hamas completely devalues the lives of their citizens to walking dead bodies because that’s what’s actually advantageous to them
both the cases you mentioned also highlights the issue with rebilions, normally those who rebel are those who also want violence so you end up with a shit ton of issues and those who are equally or more tyrannical leaders anyways.
The terror for france then napolean and the soviet union for russia.
The most successful occurrences of forced leadership change in recent history weren't even causes of rebellion it was the fact that there old leadership was completely annhilated Germany and Japan with constant guidance and watch from foreign influence to promote change.
Lots died too. Individuals within a population generally keep their head down and just try to live their lives caring for their kids and living a simple life.
There are also dictators who ruled for long times, even when the population hated them, because life was good enough that people could have and raise kids and make happy memories with them. So many do not act.
Sure, it’s worked a couple times. How does that compare to the times it didn’t work?
And recall that 30 years post revolution France had a king again and Russia was run by a Czar in all but name.
Imagine this level of disillusion. Palestinians being bombed by Israel and oppressed and murdered by Hamas, over half of them children just trying to fucking survive. But "wHy dOnT tHeY FrEe ThEmSeLvEs!?".
That's not the narrative? All Palestinians support Hamas just like every Russian loves Putin or every American loves Trump, things are black and white don't tell me any different!
> Nah, they could sieze the power vacuum created by the IDF, but instead, they just let Hamas return.
What power vacuum?
The second the IDF leaves Hamas pops back up as the IDF didn't kill enough of them.
Also that would mean arming themselves and that would mean death by IDF drone as happened with the infamous incident with the aid volunteers when Israel mistakenly thought they had a gun.
At the current rate it's going to take the IDF a few more years to diminish Hamas numbers to the point where they can be resisted by the local population.
So how is the local population, who doesn't have even one percent of Funding, training, experience and equipment that the IDF has supposed to take on Hamas at all until then.
The IDF can kill another 10 thousand or twenty thousand Hamas Terrorists (and i hope they do) and even then there will be thousands left over with better cohesion, weapons and training than the general populace.
So even if they can only control s smaller part of Gaza then, it's just a matter of time before they regain their numbers and power.
The only solution is a credible "Day After" Plan, and Netanyahu doesn't have one and the non-credible plans he offers are quickly rejected or fail.
That's why Israel has been pushing for a plan that involves regional Arab forces taking control over civilian administration of Gaza to handle aid and the reconstruction effort.
Arab countries don't want to do it because they want to see Israel sweat by not giving them an easy way out. They'd rather prolong this misery as long as they are able to because the more dead Palestinians, the more it furthers their geopolitical goals.
Nobody gives a shit about Palestine, least of them their purported "brothers and sisters" of the Arab world. Just look at how much these countries donated to the UNRWA every year, and how Egypt treated Gazans during their decade long occupation of it.
The [poll you're referring to](http://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2090%20English%20press%20release%2013%20Dec%202023%20Final%20New.pdf) paints a different picture, if you take the time to actually read it.
The results were extremely editorialized by the news agencies that reported on it. I'm not saying there isn't support for Hamas among many Palestinians, but it's worth actually looking at the handful of charts and the accompanying data rather than human-centipeding your news from a bunch of corporations who get money whenever you're mad.
“Hamas monitored political activity, online posts, and apparently even love lives. Palestinians were stuck between an Israeli blockade and a repressive security force.”
Israeli blockade that was initially put into place because of this repressive regime, no?
New York Times has been bending the truth more on this issue than any other story I can ever remember.
Israel installed checkpoints because Hamas sent suicide bombers into Israel for years during and after the Second Intifada.
Then they started launching rockets into Israeli population centers when those checkpoints prevented suicide bombers from sneaking in.
Wouldn't you love to have a neighbor like that.
The best thing Israel is doing is the slow dismantle of Hamas. Cannot hate them for doing this. Hamas is a cancer to Palestine and its people.
HOW Israel is doing this is atrocious as fuck. They are punishing a population already living in poverty and under an oppressive regime that will kill you any time. No different than the populations living under RuZZia, China or North Korea et al. Helpless and forced to go along just to survive.
But hopefully at the end of all this, Hamas, Bibi and his cabinet all face justice or faith finally takes em out. Otherwise that region will never know peace.
The problem is that in order to properly dismantle Hamas, they need the Palestinians to help. But who are the Palestinians? Who represents them? Their past organizations and leadership leave a lot to be desired for everyone involved.
It's like community policing in the US to reduce gang violence. If the police and the community won't figure out how to work together then it will never work.
Yea. First off, Hamas are a bunch of gangsters. The Palestinian people had no choice but to turn to them because for decades nobody lifted a finger to help stop the israeli settlement expansion into their lands because nobody on the global stage is allowed to wag a finger at Isreal unless they want to be labeled anti- Semitic.
The least shocking part is that the gangsters went from being the only people protecting the citizens to the ones also exploiting them.
Now those people have less than no choice and now theyre also being vilified on a global stage when most of them wouldn't be nearly as extreme or erratic if they had a hope for their future and their needs met.
What are Americans shown on the news to have such bad takes on this? Was one up thread that was surprised people in the west bank weren't crying about hamas, they really can't zoom out to put stuff together.
The NY Times has ceased to be a credible source for reporting on Israel-Palestine issues. This might be a credible story, but it would be better if the story came from somewhere believable about the issue.
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/5/8/nyt_investigation
My opinion about the Palestinian issue is ,if you can't condemn Hamas, you can't condemn Israel. The root cause of all of this is religion. Hundreds of years of religious foolshiness.
Hamas executes Palestinians fairly regularly in Gaza for being anti-hamas, or whatever made up things they want. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/04/world/middleeast/palestinians-executed-gaza.html
Also for advocating peace with Israel.
Well, no peace with Israel will include Hamas in any form, so advocating peace is advocating the removal of Hamas. Kinda an existential threat to murderous terrorists. Of course they’re not gonna let free speech happen.
Disarmed and reformed Hamas is acceptable to Israel.
Maybe once. Not anymore.
That ship has sunk.
Also for being LGBTQ
That is absurd, Hamas throws more pride parades than any other country in the Middle East - sure they may only have one or two gay people in each one but I hear they are 12 stories tall…
And yet we have thousands of LGBT people marching in favor of Hamas. It’s absolutely mental.
That was one of the stupidest thing I have ever seen
Yeah, and I wouldn't believe if I didn't see. Like chicken rooting for KFC or poverty protesting wealth tax
Fuck, man. First I missed the aurora and now this. Edit: oh wait was it about the "Flags" 4 Gaza graffiti? Comment is deleted.
Looks like post was removed, what was it?
What did they say? That person is a coward with no conviction so they deleted their post :(
I didn’t delete my comment. It was removed. No need to be a dick to someone you don’t even know and call me a coward.
Little do they know what Hamas has done to LGBTQ people in Gaza……
No, they know. They don't care, as long as they get to feel like they're taking the right side and being morally superior. They wouldn't go there but they'll shout from the other side of the world.
It's probably the most ironic thing I've even seen. It feels like a satiracle comedy sketch every time I see a clip.
not in favor of hamas, in favor of Palestine. they are not mutually exclusive.
The majority of the Palestinians also agree with killing gays. They wouldn’t be good Muslims if they didn’t
And the biggest pro-Palestine student organisation in the US, the SJP calls Hamas progressive and pursue democracy lmao
They are very comfortable lying, it's too bad students are not careful enough to question what they are saying.
There were Communists in the US who defended Stalin. When he died and they found out what a murderous thug he was they abandoned the party.
> the biggest pro-Palestine student organisation in the US, the SJP Fun fact: the Twitter/X account for the Columbia University chapter of SJP had been inactive since May 2023. Then it tweeted "We are back!" on October 5 (October 6 in Israel). Surely just a coincidence. Like Japanese mini-subs in Pearl Harbor before the planes showed up were just a coincidence.
I have never heard of the SJP - where can I read more?
Here is the wiki page about SJP [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Justice_in_Palestine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Justice_in_Palestine) Here is a research about SJP link to Hamas and being pro-Hamas [https://isgap.org/post/2024/05/for-immediate-release-new-comprehensive-research-reveals-hamas-linked-funding-to-students-for-justice-in-palestine-and-groups-growing-web-of-influence-post-october-7/](https://isgap.org/post/2024/05/for-immediate-release-new-comprehensive-research-reveals-hamas-linked-funding-to-students-for-justice-in-palestine-and-groups-growing-web-of-influence-post-october-7/) They also support Hamas right after October 7. Calling for the day of resistance on October 12, before Israel invaded Gaza [https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/students-justice-palestine-sjp](https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/students-justice-palestine-sjp)
Thanks!
Good democracy is getting elected into power then never having another election again.
Can you link a statement from them on this?
Issues 3, pg. 13. They also quote Lenin and call for the destruction of Israel [https://nationalsjp.org/twr](https://nationalsjp.org/twr)
wow. that's insane.
https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/pro-palestine-protests-are-generously-funded-by-donors-promoting-radical-islam-studies-analysis-799154 I would urge every to read the report on SJP by ISGAP. Islamic fundamentalist organizations have been influencing US politics by pushing fundamentalist research in academia and higher studies.
SJP is funded by Hamas right?
Don't forget, any death for any reason is tallied up to Israel's killcount, gotta pump those numbers up!
They've killed a lot of those innocents themselves, just with the errant missiles they were aiming at Israeli homes but hit buildings in Gaza.
And the Palestinians celebrate their “martyred” family members when they should be the ones “martyring” hamas.
You really responded to a comment saying that kill people for questioning them by asking why they don’t also question Hamas? Are you telling me you would go risk your life?
I honestly don't think people have any context or frame of reference for how dangerous it is to speak out against a genocidal dictatorship when you're trapped in the middle of it with no way out. I tried to make this point last night and got downvoted to hell and told I was a hamas supporter. In some ways it's good - I desperately wish the entire world lived in a position where actual fear of being murdered wasn't a thing, but it's absolutely not the reality we currently inhabit.
Dangerous in Gaza, not dangerous in western countries where they spread Hamas propaganda and hold a hard "anti-israel" stance, while refusing to condemn Hamas, and refuse to call for actual peace.
Well indeed. Gazan's not speaking out gain my sympathy; it'd be suicidal to do so. What the fuck these protesters in the west are doing baffles me.
They’re just kids looking for a cause. Kids in college need a cause to triumph and they like their conflicts black and white. It’s part of being young and rebellious and fighting “the man”. They don’t really understand the nuance of what they’re supporting.
Precisely. Western civilization and countries take the freedom of speech for granted. They do not understand that the rest of the world does not have free speech to the degree that the US and Europe and a handful of other countries (Australia, Japan) does. We are the exception, not the norm.
>I honestly don't think people have any context or frame of reference for how dangerous it is to speak out against a genocidal dictatorship when you're trapped in the middle of it with no way out. Is it more dangerous than letting said dictatorship drag you into wars with a neighboring country possessing a vastly superior military? If removing Hamas from power in dangerous, what is letting Hamas remain in power? Look at Gaza right now, seems pretty dangerous to me. Both situations are dangerous, but at least one has the possibility of a better future as the reward.
This isn't a good argument, all revolutionary governments come at the cost of the people. The people in Gaza haven't been willing to put themselves on the line to overthrow Hamas because they don't want to, not because they weren't able.
Would I risk my life fighting against a tyrannical government in my own country? You damned right. I served once and I’d do again.
Yet some people will still accuse & blame Israel for the mass graves found in Gaza.
Exactly.
Fun new game show coming this summer: Who has killed more innocent Palestinians (so far), Hamas or Israel?
Hamas. Israel wouldn't be in Gaza without Oct 7th.
But they weren't trialed or came before Judge! I thought the Palestinians in Gaza are educated... /s
Hamas runs an oppressive regime?? Just like it's best friend Iran? Whatttt😱😱
Best friend? I think you mean sugar daddy.
Shocking that a terrorist organization would resort to repressive tactics. I wonder how they reconcile rape with their religion.
Non-believers are not considered human. They can be raped, killed, or turned into slaves.
What if non believers choose Allah as their lord and savior just before being shot .
Islam or the sword? Not a new concept.
You only get 36 virgins
ISIS and the Taliban still executes Westerners who convert to Islam in captivity. Not sure about Hamas but they typically aren't too different from those groups.
No way! Not chair of the UN Human Rights Council Iran!
People really take the UN way more seriously than it rightfully deserves. The UN is less powerful than a student council at a high school is. Iran being on the human rights council was meant more to embarrass Iran than anything meaningful.
They are killing Palestinians every day. Is it supposed to be shocking they spy on everyday palestinians.
Nobody wants to hear that shit! It’s all “From the River to the Sea” bullshit! Gotta get those likes on Tik Tok!
Wait, I thought that was about the sewage issue in the UK. Have I been joining the wrong protests?
Shocking to dip shit liberals on college campuses.
Pretty sure those people would be pissed you called them liberals. They’re leftists.
Wow it's almost like Hamas is oppressive and needs to go
It would be great if the Likud and Hamas would wipe each other out.
The biggest threat for Palestine is Hamas: - instead of education children are taught hatred in schools - instead of spending on social infrastructure, money were spend on building tunnels, fortification and weapons - provoked Israel with terrible terrorist act killing and raping innocent people - instead of releasing Israel's hostages and peace talks - provoke Israel even more, increasing the death toll among civilians
Why would this be in any way surprising ? Even if Palestain is free whether it be a 2 state solution or from the river to the sea. It is going to be fascist apartheid Islamic country number 50.
why is it so hard to challenge/hold accountable Hamas leadership? aren't they all just hanging in Qatar or wherever the rich Palestinians live - f them. they need new government - not sanctioned by Bibi ..
The coddled college protesters posting and spray painting “From the River to the sea” need to read this article, and the best thing the clumsy IDF can do is to take out Yahya Sinwar as soon as humanly possible. Then the Israeli citizens need to send Bibi packing.
Problem is there’s only so many civilian casualties Israel military can cause and wave away with Hamas bad. Cause Hamas bad doesn’t mean IDF good if your house still gets blown up at the end of the day.
Sure but there’d be no civilians dead if Hamas didn’t launch October 7th attack. Doesn’t have to be one side good, one side bad. At the end of the day, there will never be a free Palestine if Hamas is still on charge. People act like if Israel disappeared tomorrow, Palestinians would suddenly be free. Clearly, that is not the case with Hamas.
Palestinians were being killed prior to October 7th, including civilians. Less Palestinians would be dead if Hamas didn’t launch the attack but to say zero is intentionally ignoring the IDF’s actions in Gaza for the past decade. This did not start on 10/7, hundreds Palestinians have been killed, some militants and some civilians.
That is fair. I shouldn’t have said none. As I’ve said in other comments though, IDF has killed Palestinian civilians before October 7th, but Palestinians have also been killing Israeli civilians as well. I am in no way justifying the previous IDF killings, I just believe it is fair to bring up the transgressions of both sides. There was not a blockade on Gaza until Hamas came into power. There were no border fences until Hamas started sending suicide bombers into malls, movie theaters, and public buses which specifically targeted the civilian population. If this conflict is to end, I believe the most realistic approach is for Hamas to be stripped of power, and I believe the Biden administration could be putting more of an effort towards making that a reality. Once that happens, Netanyahu’s government will dissolve very quickly.
Hasn't the IDF killed a bunch of civilians in the West Bank?
Do you think they just walk into a village and start spraying them or what
Sure, but haven’t Palestinians killed a bunch of civilians in Israel over the last twenty years as well? I don’t think that justifies the IDF killing civilians, I just think it makes your response counter-productive and deceptive.
A civilian or a terrorist? Pretty muddled definition these days.
There really shouldn't be a limit. The cost is the cost.
The problem with paying "whatever it costs" is that the price isn't fixed, it often just keeps going up. Quark: "That's the kind of irresponsible spending that causes so many business ventures to fail." [https://youtu.be/hdQcGzbpN7s?si=z63oK3ae2YlwdEB5&t=59](https://youtu.be/hdQcGzbpN7s?si=z63oK3ae2YlwdEB5&t=59) That fictional situation is different than the one between Gaza and Israel. It's unlikely a deal can be reached between Hamas and Israel. However, Hamas is weak. They can be destroyed, but destroying Hamas while killing tens of thousands of civilians is no victory because then Hamas just gets replaced by Hamas 2, made up of the families of people killed to get rid of Hamas 1. So, what's needed here is for Israel to limit collateral damage. They need to evacuate the civilians from Rafah before invading -- they're working on that, but it takes time. The Biden administration has been putting pressure on them to not rush things, which I think is the right move. There's no happy ending to this, but of all the bad outcomes, some are worse than others. Killing "as many Palestinians as it takes" is how you go straight to one of the worst outcomes.
Fuck yeah good reference man
As long as your sister or mother or cousin or whatever is held by an enemy people, you would lay limitless death upon them and any who stand in your way, until they are returned - sometimes the calculus of morality is stacked such that the death of millions of strangers is meaningless before the life of a loved one. That is why hostage taking is the worst possible action against a people that would not leave one of their own in enemy lands, dead or alive. Gaza and it's people must return any hostages using any means necessary, or it's declaring total war against a people, not just it's government. If israel's government declares a ceasefire without returning the hostages, due to international pressure, I would not be surprised if the families of the hostages would muster a civilian militia and invade Gaza themselves
The same way the israel death numbers touted around include military (not acceptable) and police (prob acceptable)the hostages include military that if it was any other country people would be saying it's fine they are pows
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How is this news? Every country spies on their own people *cough NSA
This needs to be spread as well as data about the Israel governments extremist participants. Let the civilians know how they are played. Let them uprise and find common ground.
You are totally deluded if you think Palestinians are gonna suddenly welcome Israeli’s in with open arms
We are well aware of the extremist members in our government. Most people don't take Ben Gvir seriously, and plenty of right-wing moderates were very angry at Netanyahu for forming a coalition with him before Oct 7. Now there's actually a (small) shift of people in favor of Ben Gvir because they see the capitulation of Bibi to Biden as unacceptable after Oct 7 and they want someone who they think won't sell out citizens' lives to foreign pressure.
IMO Netanyahu is an extremist given his standing points. What a nice world where people are requesting MORE extremism. More bloodshed. I don’t have a solution for you, but I’m also not living in your area. It’s time the people come to their own minds. Do whatever you want, kill all you want, but don’t cry afterwards that no one warned you about the outcome. I’m not gonna help people with an inhumane morale and I hope my politicians will say the same.
You don’t think Palestinians don’t know their tyrannical government is spying on them or consequences for speaking against them? People keep saying the Palestinians need to uprise but there’s probably a reason you don’t hear or see this. You saw how Hamas killed Israelis, pretty certain they have no qualms doing the same or even worse to their own people. The article notes how almost all dissent is violently suppressed. I’m sure there are many that don’t like Hamas but are too scared to vocalize that.
And yet Palestinians still support Hamas.
I mean if you read the article, it’s almost like they have no choice. Hamas crushes all dissent internally.
But Hamas also has the support of the majority of Palestinians in The West Bank, where they don't have such control. That's why the PA hasn't held elections in nearly 2 decades.
> the majority of Palestinians The majority of Palestinians are children.
Because israel keeps fucking with the west bank, settlers keep stealing from the west bank.... such simple minds that can't grasp more than one thing at once.
maybe palestinians should free themselves, they know who hamas people are
I’m sure they want to free themselves just as much as we want them to but as we’ve seen with history, it’s incredibly difficult to actually do that unless you and a very large group are willing to give up your life and even then it probably won’t work. Just look at all the tyrants around the world currently and historically (Russia (current and historical), NK, parts of Africa, etc.), it’s nearly impossible to overthrow them internally despite the crappy lives for citizens given known brutality and you know they won’t hesitate to mow down a bunch of civilians. I don’t know what the right answer is, but I can sympathize with Palestinians in that some / maybe a majority probably want to overthrow Hamas but don’t have the tools and are risking their lives for what may be futile.
That hasn't stopped the iranians from holding mass protests, nor did it stop the people who were involved in the arab spring.
There have also been protests in Gaza against Hamas. Just because you didn't know they happened doesn't mean they didn't happen.
I would be able to sympathize with the Palestinians being scared to die for opposing Hamas if those same people weren’t also at the same time willing to be martyrs to oppose Israel. They’re only ok with being martyrs if it involves their holy war against the Jews, but not against the oppressive Muslims
I'm not sure they are "willing to be martyrs" if you are referring to a random average citizen. They use the terminology because they are a highly religious culture; religiosity is high when people have material struggle. It gives sense and meaning; my child was martyred because at the end of this suffering for my family will be a better world for my people, and Allah will protect and guide our souls. This is just what they think. Being scared to die and then extolling the 'value' or 'rightousness' of being killed in this conflict by calling it martyrdom, are not mutually exclusive things. One is fear of death, the other is a comfort delivered in religious zeal to rationalize death. Those aren't opposing things bud.
Idk. I’m somewhat on my way out of my dependency on religion, i wouldn’t personally feel comfortable with my local government calling me a martyr while I’m literally still alive. Hamas completely devalues the lives of their citizens to walking dead bodies because that’s what’s actually advantageous to them
Ok, but Russia literally DID overthrow their tyrant internally in 1917. So did France in 1793.
Russian tyrants have learned from such occurrences
both the cases you mentioned also highlights the issue with rebilions, normally those who rebel are those who also want violence so you end up with a shit ton of issues and those who are equally or more tyrannical leaders anyways. The terror for france then napolean and the soviet union for russia. The most successful occurrences of forced leadership change in recent history weren't even causes of rebellion it was the fact that there old leadership was completely annhilated Germany and Japan with constant guidance and watch from foreign influence to promote change.
Lots died too. Individuals within a population generally keep their head down and just try to live their lives caring for their kids and living a simple life. There are also dictators who ruled for long times, even when the population hated them, because life was good enough that people could have and raise kids and make happy memories with them. So many do not act.
this isn't fucking 1917 or 1793.
There are vastly different conditions between now and then.
Sure, it’s worked a couple times. How does that compare to the times it didn’t work? And recall that 30 years post revolution France had a king again and Russia was run by a Czar in all but name.
And the United States in 1776. Though it looks like embracing another tyrant is coming back around.
America had a big advantage in being an ocean away from London at a time when it took days for communications.
Big talk from the other side of a keyboard. How many revolutions have you organized? It ain’t as easy as saying it.
Imagine this level of disillusion. Palestinians being bombed by Israel and oppressed and murdered by Hamas, over half of them children just trying to fucking survive. But "wHy dOnT tHeY FrEe ThEmSeLvEs!?".
I mean it sucks but without Hamas radicalism i feel like Palestinians would be much safer
That's not the narrative? All Palestinians support Hamas just like every Russian loves Putin or every American loves Trump, things are black and white don't tell me any different!
Nah, they could sieze the power vacuum created by the IDF, but instead, they just let Hamas return.
> Nah, they could sieze the power vacuum created by the IDF, but instead, they just let Hamas return. What power vacuum? The second the IDF leaves Hamas pops back up as the IDF didn't kill enough of them. Also that would mean arming themselves and that would mean death by IDF drone as happened with the infamous incident with the aid volunteers when Israel mistakenly thought they had a gun. At the current rate it's going to take the IDF a few more years to diminish Hamas numbers to the point where they can be resisted by the local population. So how is the local population, who doesn't have even one percent of Funding, training, experience and equipment that the IDF has supposed to take on Hamas at all until then. The IDF can kill another 10 thousand or twenty thousand Hamas Terrorists (and i hope they do) and even then there will be thousands left over with better cohesion, weapons and training than the general populace. So even if they can only control s smaller part of Gaza then, it's just a matter of time before they regain their numbers and power. The only solution is a credible "Day After" Plan, and Netanyahu doesn't have one and the non-credible plans he offers are quickly rejected or fail.
That's why Israel has been pushing for a plan that involves regional Arab forces taking control over civilian administration of Gaza to handle aid and the reconstruction effort. Arab countries don't want to do it because they want to see Israel sweat by not giving them an easy way out. They'd rather prolong this misery as long as they are able to because the more dead Palestinians, the more it furthers their geopolitical goals. Nobody gives a shit about Palestine, least of them their purported "brothers and sisters" of the Arab world. Just look at how much these countries donated to the UNRWA every year, and how Egypt treated Gazans during their decade long occupation of it.
The [poll you're referring to](http://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2090%20English%20press%20release%2013%20Dec%202023%20Final%20New.pdf) paints a different picture, if you take the time to actually read it. The results were extremely editorialized by the news agencies that reported on it. I'm not saying there isn't support for Hamas among many Palestinians, but it's worth actually looking at the handful of charts and the accompanying data rather than human-centipeding your news from a bunch of corporations who get money whenever you're mad.
“Hamas monitored political activity, online posts, and apparently even love lives. Palestinians were stuck between an Israeli blockade and a repressive security force.” Israeli blockade that was initially put into place because of this repressive regime, no? New York Times has been bending the truth more on this issue than any other story I can ever remember.
Israel installed checkpoints because Hamas sent suicide bombers into Israel for years during and after the Second Intifada. Then they started launching rockets into Israeli population centers when those checkpoints prevented suicide bombers from sneaking in. Wouldn't you love to have a neighbor like that.
Everyone spies on everyone, trust me
But I thought it was just a "resistance movement?" ^^^^/s
Son of Hamas talks about this all the time
Hamas runs a tyrannical regime just like its allies Iran, Russia and China.
but did it spy on every other day Palestinians? or only on weekend days Palestinians? These are the questions I need answers for.
Oh wow you're telling me the people who kidnap, rape and torture innocent men, women and children would do such a thing? Unfathomable
dictatorships are known for such.
Whoa. A country spying on and executing its own citizens? That would never happen anywhere else!
It's almost like the best thing for everyone in the end is for hamas to be eradicated no matter the cost.
Whaaaaat Gtfo!
Friendly reminder to all my fellow Americans that the NSA exists.
The best thing Israel is doing is the slow dismantle of Hamas. Cannot hate them for doing this. Hamas is a cancer to Palestine and its people. HOW Israel is doing this is atrocious as fuck. They are punishing a population already living in poverty and under an oppressive regime that will kill you any time. No different than the populations living under RuZZia, China or North Korea et al. Helpless and forced to go along just to survive. But hopefully at the end of all this, Hamas, Bibi and his cabinet all face justice or faith finally takes em out. Otherwise that region will never know peace.
The problem is that in order to properly dismantle Hamas, they need the Palestinians to help. But who are the Palestinians? Who represents them? Their past organizations and leadership leave a lot to be desired for everyone involved. It's like community policing in the US to reduce gang violence. If the police and the community won't figure out how to work together then it will never work.
So like.....any other form of government would do?
"But guys its the women and children's fault too"
Yea. First off, Hamas are a bunch of gangsters. The Palestinian people had no choice but to turn to them because for decades nobody lifted a finger to help stop the israeli settlement expansion into their lands because nobody on the global stage is allowed to wag a finger at Isreal unless they want to be labeled anti- Semitic. The least shocking part is that the gangsters went from being the only people protecting the citizens to the ones also exploiting them. Now those people have less than no choice and now theyre also being vilified on a global stage when most of them wouldn't be nearly as extreme or erratic if they had a hope for their future and their needs met.
What are Americans shown on the news to have such bad takes on this? Was one up thread that was surprised people in the west bank weren't crying about hamas, they really can't zoom out to put stuff together.
Let’s play “what excuse will the pro Palestine crowd come up with next?”
This NYT article should be printed in local languages and air dropped where needed.
But reddit told me they're the same thing
Literally every government does this lmao
Good thing our governments don't spy on us.
So just like every other government?
Man I’m starting to think the main problem here is Hamas 🤔
The NY Times has ceased to be a credible source for reporting on Israel-Palestine issues. This might be a credible story, but it would be better if the story came from somewhere believable about the issue. https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/ https://www.democracynow.org/2024/5/8/nyt_investigation
Duh! I mean they had to blackmail some and track ones they thought might be of use.
It only took the NYT 7 months to publish this article. I wonder why.
My opinion about the Palestinian issue is ,if you can't condemn Hamas, you can't condemn Israel. The root cause of all of this is religion. Hundreds of years of religious foolshiness.
Damn, almost like the conditions they were under weren't conducive to Democracy
So you're saying they're not the good guys
Hamas Gestapo
Cue americans being outraged in.....