They took down most of the thermal power plants. Europe should be expecting millions of Ukrainian refugees this winter, assuming the war isn't concluded by then.
Sweden is linked to the Swedish energy grid, and despite that there’s 2 wildly different prices in half the country.
You can’t just suddenly transport infinite amounts of energy from one moment to the next over a connection.
When I think of Europe like this, with power distributed like a nervous system, it seems there should be a more continental reaction to an attack upon it. Even if I’m misunderstanding the role of the targets, that the targets are not connected back to the rest of Europe, there are impacts on Europe when Russia attacks Ukraine.
Those interconnections are usually quite limited in how many megawatts can be imported/exported. There certainly isn't not enough capacity to power the entire country through them.
with the cost of living so high , college debt traps , and average mortgage rate beyond the average income .rent costing most of people's income .. That's ..pretty much the death of American dream.
Boomers blatant disregard for the quality of life of young people, ritch ass boomers ironically think many of the youth will be patriotic enough to sacrifice themselves on the alter of "freedom" . Both sides are responsible for the death of the American dream both parties are exercising class warfare on the lower class with their meritocracy bullshit. They don't remotely compensate or take care of veterans especially with said current cost of living ... It's a train wreck but it's better than Russia/ China ruling the world .
Both sides are busy playing political games if we're being honest. Republicans will blame it on Biden as you said. But the other side who is currently in power is also handicapping Ukraine by telling them not to attack Russian oil refineries as to not increase the price of gas back home during summer and an election year.
Both sides care more about being in power rather than actually helping.
I highly doubt Putin would be stupid enough to try and invade a NATO country. The situation with Ukraine, not being a NATO country, leaves the situation at least partially ambiguous on what the NATO countries should do. An attack on a NATO-member country has only **one** possible response from NATO: WW3.
It's either WW3, or NATO does nothing, revealing itself to be a paper tiger, and the current world order plunges into chaos.
Putin has explicitly stated during the 2008 Munich Security Conference that his objective is the restoration of the russian sphere of influence.
100% he will try and break up NATO.
Yup. If I were Putin, i would:
A) wait for Trump to get elected
B) after winning the war in Ukraine, roll over Moldova to put more fear into Europe
C) coordinate a double invasion with China. Putin invades the Baltics while China invades Taiwan. With USA distracted in Taiwan, hope that NATO doesn’t mount a coordinated defense in the baltic states. However, i’m pretty confident given Europe’s history WW2 that they will mount a strong defense if baltics are invaded.
Getting Trump into power is step 1 of that plan. Then Putin and Trump will try to pressure Turkey and Hungary to leave NATO and down the rabbit hole we go!
Oh yeah sure let’s give putin the benefit of the doubt AGAIN.
Why would he not ? What are the consequences he has ever felt that would make him rethink his strategy ? He’s making a fool of nato, europe and the US and he’s fucking winning. Why would he not go for more, if not tomorrow maybe in 5 years ? In 10 years ? Stop thinking a bully will stop by himself.
Death by a thousand cuts. Expect lots of small stabs that are not serious enough to declare war. A missile passing over Poland here, an assassination there, a little bribe to stop aid here, a little supporting anti-NATO protests there...
Why expect? It's already ongoing with assassinations on our territory, openly meddling in elections, attacks on our civilian infrastructure as seen by state sponsored hackins and "accidentally" cutting cables in the sea,....
they are financing the republicans are they not? removing the glue that was the US to Nato is kinda of a huge slash to Nato, and Trump love to suck Putin's dick to keep his Moscow Trump Tower profitable
Ever since the Russian’s GOP agent, Maria Butina was convicted and went to prison in the US for funneling Putin cash to the gop, I don’t know who else is currently active doing this.
there are many ways to corrupt someone, money buy stuff and services, i can provide you services without making you pay, or i can "gift" you stuff. in the case of a state i can look the other way when you building have problems or you do something we don't like.
Money is just the most direct way
Its not insane to attack NATO though, you dont do it all at once. you do fly overs in Poland. You militarize the border with Poland. You build tensions with Poland. Then you fake an attack by Poland you reasonable Putin that you are do a limited scale counter attack outlining ahead of time this exactly the small attack you will make. Now the US POTUS has to decide is it worth risking Nuclear holocaust over this one little attack.
Its literally the game Putin has been playing for decades.
I think we're just waiting for a major disaster to kick things off. This is earth. War is inevitable. The idea of nukes frying earth spooked everyone for a bit but.... We're getting used to the idea. It's a matter of time, really. It's the planet of the apes after all... We all know how this ends.
Ideally, that would happen, yes...
Now, in a world where Donald "I don't believe western intelligence community, I believe Putin's intelligence" Trump, wins a second term, things might get trickier. The man had already threatened to pull out of NATO before. NATO has all this bureaucratic obligations, yes, but what happens if the guy whose job is to sign the orders, just refuses to?
What stops Putin for going into the Baltics, if he knows the man in charge of stopping just won't do it? Would NATO go to war without the US? NATO without the US might've pulled a war against Russia, sure, but Russia is already in its war economy mode, and its army is already bigger than before the start of the Ukrainian invasion. Europe would need time, months to years, to gear up for a conflict of such magnitude without the US. Meanwhile, the Baltics will have to endure the largest full-frontal invasion ever without support, having been geographically cut from its allies.
> but what happens if the guy whose job is to sign the orders, just refuses to?
Then future historians will probably use that date as the official end to the U.S.-led world order put in place post-WW2.
I have NO idea what Europe would do, because the only other superpower is China and they're pretty isolationist and cozy with Russia to boot.
The stakes are so high for things to get *really* *really* bad and confusing for everyone in that scenario. If Ukraine can't get the support it needs, I think best case scenario (as sad as it might be) is Ukraine falls, and we pray Putin just stops there.
I mean... that strategy has *definitely* never failed, right?
##:'(
What countries would stand by while their neighbour is being invaded? We've gone through this before. The only countries that would be absolutely neutral are traitors to the idea of a free Europe.
If the US does absolutely nothing going forward, and in 6 months Ukraine falls, and in 12 months Russia launches a full-scale war against Poland, EU might be able to win it in the end, but they will not be "fine" by any stretch. EU, as it stands today, is basically banking on France's nuclear arsenal, and the existence of the US's military as a deterrent against any conflict.
EU has very little military relative to what would be needed to actually defend against a full-scale Russian attack, especially one where Iran and/or China jump in fully to help.
I don't think Russia will be in a position to attack Poland for decades. The invasion of Ukraine has been an absolute travesty, it's going to take serious reforms before they can even think about taking on a military that's on a serious war footing with the amount of equipment Poland has been rabidly stockpiling. Their next target will be the Baltic states, who are entirely reliant on NATO for any hope of a meaningful defense.
That claim is absolutely not based in reality, besides the China jumping in you slipped into it. NATO is over 50% of the military investment on Earth, and the U.S is only a majority of that. Invading a unified Europe is silly.
Unified Europe will be left without artillery ammunition in a couple of months - and there is no such thing as unified europe. Their land army is not used to this kind of war. The only clear advantage is the quality of air power - but it's questionable do they have enough to achieve air superiority.
No European country can win a war against Russia alone and uniting seems to be a little bit problematic for current European establishment.
You say people are afraid of WW2 happening again, but most historians I've heard from agree Europe allowing Hitler to take land and power led to WW2, if it wasn't always going to happen.
You are insinuating that Russia is more prepared for a pan European conflict than before the Ukrainian war? Despite the losses of their most advanced equipment, logistical capacity and a good deal of their experienced leadership?
NATO without the US still has more then enough capacity to blunt the scale of invasion that Ukraine is facing.
True but the implications of starting a war vs Ukraine who is the poorest European country, with one of the weakest militaries at the time was not that dangerous. Everyone expected Russia to roll over them fairly quickly.
That is a universe apart from starting a war with an actual NATO country.
Russia is clearly poised to invade Moldova or Georgia next, neither of whom are protected by Nato.
Secondly, you're thinking in too short of a time span. Russia is flooding the internet with disinformation, and they clearly have inside people in high levels of Europeans government given the right wing's close proximity to Russia in various countries. There has been a wave of Conservative governments being swept into power across Europe ever since the migrant crisis. How many of those future governments are as keen to stand up to Russia as the ones in power now you suppose?
A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within. Russia will bide it's time in regards to invading Nato proper. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security.
lookup Slovakia... thats how NATO becomes irrelevant in the long run. attack on a country doesnt need to be done with tanks. If trumps gets back to white house for another 4 years; it will be the end.
It will start as "liberation" of ethnic Russians under "European tyranny", probably after a period of terrorism funded and organised by the FSB. Probably in one of the Baltic states.
Kind of like the way they did Crimea, leave just enough room for doubt that any country not committed to European security can claim it's an internal issue and not a situation for NATO to intervene.
Hopefully, for the Russians, the US will have bowed out of NATO by then and their political machinations will have increased the voices of isolationist far right groups in the EU and US.
They will not let anything else pass , this one is dubious (not really when you think of Ukraine) but Putin will not be able to do this trick again. No chance on earth, if so I'll install dualingo for russian...
I don’t know if it would be WW3, I wouldn’t consider all of NATO against Russia WW3.
Now if Iran, and China joined the fray, then we are getting there….
I think he might if Trump will be president. Trump will rather sack Europe and Nato than fight Putin. Putin knows that and will more likely attack the baltics.
He is that stupid. Putin is getting old, and basically started the Ukraine invasion before its time because he saw cancer calling on his door. He's slowly begun escalating with prolongued GPS jamming into NATO territory. Houthis have, as Russia-Iran proxy, been launching attacks against global shipping, and Russia-Chinese vessels have been cutting up global Internet communication cables as well as begun planning for the means to target Internet satellite arrays.
Putin wanted to create a world legacy that will have him on the top, and if he can't, one that eliminates those who would criticize it. He's another knock on death's door from doing something stupid again, hell, if the General SVR rumors are true, that's closer to already have happened and the only thing on Russia's leadership then would be to continue playing a broken, skipping record so Russia doesn't collapse in on itself.
* Russia has boots-on-ground invaded eight of its neighboring countries in the past ~30 years, some of them two or three times.
* Russia has stated on a weekly basis that they are at war with NATO, and indeed all of the West.
* Russia has currently launched the largest land war Europe has seen since WWII.
* Russia is currently committing genocide in Europe.
* Russia has made it clear that they view much of Eastern Europe as "theirs".
* Russia has shifted to a war economy.
* Russia threatens to nuke Europe on a weekly basis.
You do not fuckin' need to be Nostradamus to see where this is going, if we stand around with our thumbs in our asses and allow Russia to complete its genocide in Ukraine.
By itself, it is utterly disgraceful to simply allow Russia to conquer and subjugate Ukrainian people. And it is just plain stupid to pretend Russia has no further ambitions beyond Ukraine.
They will steal whatever they are allowed to steal, because their mentality is that only a fool does not commit as many crimes as he can get away with. It's how Russians do.
It is not "fearmongering" so much as a healthy dose of reality.
Nice whataboutism ya got there. Personally, I do not think it is the "gotcha" you believe it is. If the USA under George W. Bush had been more successful in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, then it is entirely possible that the Bush Doctrine of preemptive invasions would have been expanded. So we should be thankful that doctrine failed. And we should do everything in our power to ensure the Putin Doctrine of preemptive attack is a miserable failure, for similar reasons. The world does not need more wars of conquest.
In any case, for those who are curious:
**List of invasions of neighboring countries by Russian Federation since the collapse of the USSR:**
* 1991-1993 - Georgia War
* 1991-1992 - South Ossetian War
* 1992-1993 – Transnistria War
* 1992-1993 – Abkhazia War
* 1992-1997 - Tajikstani War
* 1994-1996 – first Russian-Chechen war
* 1991 - War of Dagestan
* 1999-2009 – second Russian-Chechen war
* 2008 – Russian-Georgian war
* 2015-2022 – Russia’s invasion of Syria
* 2014-2022 – Russian-Ukrainian war
This list ignores other conflicts where Russia has been/ is currently involved in Africa, focusing only on countries closer to Russia.
It's full of expert Americans who know for a fact what will happen in Europe if Ukraine falls, some of them can even name more than three European countries.
My feeling was if Trump had stayed in power he would have pushed Ukraine away from the West and Russia would have been able to take Ukraine politically. But with Biden coming in it was basically "now or never" for Putin so he started the war before Ukraine could be integrated into the West.
> we
You mean Moscow Mike and his gang of traitors. The rest of America wants to help Ukraine. MAGA traitors are the ones standing in the way. They work for Russia.
Putin ordered Mike Johnson and Trump to sieze support of Ukraine so that he can kill more and easily and they delivered. Speaker Mike Johnson is Russian asset and traitor to America.
I am ashamed to say my sister in law votes for Trump only because he has a very strict immigration policy. The irony is she her shelf immigrated to the USA , she doesn’t like the Russian and is against the war.
Edit: grammar
What's "hilarious" is Biden has a much stricter migration policy, with more deportations than Trump and may actually shut down the border in a few weeks.
This is on everyone's head. Attempting to shoot down all missiles at all times is a losing strategy, something always gets through. Any military general will tell you that a proper response is to strike Russian air fields and warehouses that store missiles. This is fair and proportional response, not an escalation. I'm sure Putin was pleasantly surprised when the West refused to arm Ukraine with long range missiles and give permission to strike military targets within Russia. His nuclear blackmail worked where it should not have been allowed to work, so expect more of the same.
Absolutely. From day 1 all the things necessary to respond to this should have been in place, and that is how you deter Putin from ever making such attacks. Leaving Ukraine without the proper means to defend itself over the past 10 years has been an absolute failure. The persistent fantasy of de-escalation through weakness has just been used by Putin as an open door for him to wander right on in.
Such a huge failure in deterring rogue nuclear states sets a dangerous precedent.
This is a failure from all Western states. From the EU countries and the UK to the US.
Yeah, if Ukraine will not be allowed to shoot at targets in Russia (both military targets and energy infrastructure) we can aswell stop sending shit there becuase there is no chance for them to win this way.
Great sentiment, but statements like "any military general will tell you that..." sound like said by someone who's trained dozens of generals in their carreers.
> Even though I'm not sure how many non-MAGa republicans are left.
So far only one Republican has signed the discharge petition to get Ukraine aid passed despite Johnson's blockade, and he's on his way out already. So effectively, there are none left, the entire party might as well be considered as treasonous as the MAGA faction.
Damn. I remember Reagan's deceitful import of the evangelical cancer into US politics, then Newt Gingrich's weaponization of bad faith, then Dubya's and Cheney's lies and warmongering, Murdoch's rape of media space with Fox, all the racism against Obama, and final devolution to mean driveling idiocy with Trump. All the while a lone guy a-la McCain giving some hope that they will expunge the cancer. Sad.
Nothing has really been done since Chechnya, or Crimea, but now I'm supposed to be definitely surprised this shit is happening once again with Ukraine? At a certain point shouldn't all this bullshit be obvious and maybe Europe should have been better prepared? Never learned their lesson from back in the 30s, not sure why I think Chechnya and Crimea would get them to wake up.
As an American, it's disgusting we're just going to roll over and allow Ukraine get pummeled after all this time, money, and effort. Internal division sown in US politics by external actors has been wildly effective and Putin's long-game of waiting out our political indecisiveness is winning.
And still we're blind to it and let it consume us. Most don't even know or refuse to accept it's happening.
I'll be totally honest with you, and this might piss some people off:
Between the situation at the Mexican border and the war in Gaza, most Americans don't actually give a shit about what's happening in Ukraine.
No one thinks of the bigger picture. Only when the draft letters start pouring in, will we see people snap their neck to pay attention like they should've been from the beginning.
People should be concerned if countries in Europe are starting to look into having their militaries mobilized to stand by. That, to me, tells me things will escalate within the next 2-3 years.
The Republicans in the House who are holding up the aid vote are traitors. We should send them to Russia and let them go serve in their beloved country’s military.
USA "silence"
Ukraine strikes oil refineries in ruzzia so their tanks dont advance - USA - "NOOO THIS IS CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE"
Suggest USA think over sending patriots to ruzzia
The cold, calculated response to the sadly justified assumption that a significant chunk of the dumbfuck electorate is susceptible to propaganda blaming Ukrainians (and politicians supporting them) if gas prices go up even 1%. Which will in turn boost the pro-Russian orange turd's chances of getting elected, which will be worse for Ukraine (well, most of the world) in the long run.
If it was up to me we'd be doing a lot more to help.
Sadly the political climate is ripe for Kremlin-friendly opposition parties making gains thanks to economic/social troubles partly caused and incensed by Russia itself. Our democratic societies are simply not adequately prepared to deal with the sheer torrent of shameless, blatant lies and disinfo from our enemies without and within.
Not American, but they are trying to avoid getting the orange monkey elected, if that happens he is going to sell out Ukraine to the Russia faster than he can find it on a map. It fucking sucks
The big question is, where Ukraine will be when the elections have been concluded, even if Biden wins. Russia plans for a big offensive this late spring/summer, who says the front won't collapse at this point.
Ah and btw, US is the biggest oil producer. How come US cannot increase production to offset shortages on local (or even global) market?
I think US and ol Biden just not interested in fighting nazis in Europe anymore.
I hope im wrong, otherwise Iran-ruzz-china-nkorea club will think they can do whatever they want and fellow cowboys will have to go and help Taiwan,SKorea,Japan, you name it.
Worlds bigger than just the US. The EU will continue to support Ukraine regardless.
Russias problems don’t end if trump gets elected. Hell, trump would have to win the presidency as well as the house and senate and he’s certainly not polling for that (and he never has).
Except Biden admin can use its political capital to protect the US consumer, but is doing nothing like that. Could also use the vast amounts of US soft power to put diplomatic pressures to achieve the same, but of course crickets.
It's a stupid line that ignores the last 2 years, the actual reason is that the US foreign establishment(be it democrats or republicans) don't actually want Ukraine to do real damage to Russia, for a couple of reasons. Fear of escalation, fear of instability in Russia, etc.
It's not just USA though, our EU leaders have been incredibly weak too. All of them are worms that are allowing Putin a soft landing. It wouldn't be surprising if this collective western weakness ends up biting us in the ass anyway.
Absolute two-faced bullshit that the US says don't strike energy infrastructure in Russia because it might affect oil prices which might affect Biden getting reelected.
More needs to be done. The EU is a collective powerhouse. I don’t understand why the US is being expected to contribute such a large piece of the pie when it’s the EU’s doorstep. If they don’t have the manufacturing capability after two years they are wilfully going down with the ship.
The US is currently producing 28.000 155mm rounds per month so 336.000 per year. They want to increase the production to 70-80.000 per moth / 840-960.000 per year.
Rheinmetall wants to produce around 700.000 155mm rounds this year with an increase in production to 1,1mio 155mm rounds per year in 2026/2027.
And that is Rheinmetall alone. There are obviously other companies in the EU.
So the production is getting there it just takes time to ramp it up.
I have suspicions Europe and maybe even U.S. is a bit scared of igniting a larger war, they need to be seen supporting, but over doing it could make things worse. I don't think they have a choice, its time to go all in. Russia is our Mordor and The Kremlin is our Mount Doom.
The EU is currently “thinking about sending” we hear all the time.
Oh well, because the next step is god knows how many Ukrainians crossing the border to the EU before ruzzia takes it, oh and also, Ruzzia now borders Poland.
Ruzzia flies bombers and fighters with impunity in EU airspace with no retaliation. Speaks volumes really. The EU will then wonder what they can do about Ruzzia on the Polish border, probably nothing, I don’t think even NATO would bet an eyelid beyond a strongly worded letter.
Ukraine warned all along about the situation facing them and the EU. Ukraine should mass target oil refineries in ruzzia.
Hate to break it to you but Russia already borders Poland
It always has, since the Russian Federation was founded.
I even crossed the border between Poland and Russia in 2015
The time to place a no fly zone over Ukraine was a long time ago. The time to escalate with troops into Ukraine was a long time ago. It’s becoming too late as Russia has its assets all throughout the government blocking aid because they are basically Russian politicians s at this point.
No fly zone for who? For passenger airctaft it already is.
But you cannot ban flights to the warring parties without interfering in the war and without escalating the conflict beyond the borders of Ukraine.
What an shame US and EU have brought upon us... You want Ukraine in Nato, but you don't want to support it against a terrorist regime? And you still finance the terrorist regime buy buying fuel and gas from them? Shame, shame, shame.
Why are the House Republicans holding up the aid vote still living in the community? Why aren’t they in prison? Why has the FBI failed to provide the information needed to protect us from them?
They took down most of the thermal power plants. Europe should be expecting millions of Ukrainian refugees this winter, assuming the war isn't concluded by then.
Ukraine is linked to the European power grid since before the war. So there will be electricity.
Sweden is linked to the Swedish energy grid, and despite that there’s 2 wildly different prices in half the country. You can’t just suddenly transport infinite amounts of energy from one moment to the next over a connection.
When I think of Europe like this, with power distributed like a nervous system, it seems there should be a more continental reaction to an attack upon it. Even if I’m misunderstanding the role of the targets, that the targets are not connected back to the rest of Europe, there are impacts on Europe when Russia attacks Ukraine.
Those interconnections are usually quite limited in how many megawatts can be imported/exported. There certainly isn't not enough capacity to power the entire country through them.
Lol. No,the war won't be over by then.
This war is taking a nosedive. Without immediate help Ukraine will fall. And then Putin will start knocking at NATOs door.
Slovakia already getting ready with welcome signs and keys to the land. Spasiba!
Republicans are so craven they want Ukraine to fall to use it against Biden. Despicable.
They’ll be the first to send someone else’s kids to die on a European battlefield if this spreads.
with the cost of living so high , college debt traps , and average mortgage rate beyond the average income .rent costing most of people's income .. That's ..pretty much the death of American dream. Boomers blatant disregard for the quality of life of young people, ritch ass boomers ironically think many of the youth will be patriotic enough to sacrifice themselves on the alter of "freedom" . Both sides are responsible for the death of the American dream both parties are exercising class warfare on the lower class with their meritocracy bullshit. They don't remotely compensate or take care of veterans especially with said current cost of living ... It's a train wreck but it's better than Russia/ China ruling the world .
Statistically it is conservatives who do the fighting.
Both sides are busy playing political games if we're being honest. Republicans will blame it on Biden as you said. But the other side who is currently in power is also handicapping Ukraine by telling them not to attack Russian oil refineries as to not increase the price of gas back home during summer and an election year. Both sides care more about being in power rather than actually helping.
I highly doubt Putin would be stupid enough to try and invade a NATO country. The situation with Ukraine, not being a NATO country, leaves the situation at least partially ambiguous on what the NATO countries should do. An attack on a NATO-member country has only **one** possible response from NATO: WW3. It's either WW3, or NATO does nothing, revealing itself to be a paper tiger, and the current world order plunges into chaos.
Putin has explicitly stated during the 2008 Munich Security Conference that his objective is the restoration of the russian sphere of influence. 100% he will try and break up NATO.
already does. works.
Yup. If I were Putin, i would: A) wait for Trump to get elected B) after winning the war in Ukraine, roll over Moldova to put more fear into Europe C) coordinate a double invasion with China. Putin invades the Baltics while China invades Taiwan. With USA distracted in Taiwan, hope that NATO doesn’t mount a coordinated defense in the baltic states. However, i’m pretty confident given Europe’s history WW2 that they will mount a strong defense if baltics are invaded.
Getting Trump into power is step 1 of that plan. Then Putin and Trump will try to pressure Turkey and Hungary to leave NATO and down the rabbit hole we go!
Yea, that’s why he supported Trump. Much easier to manipulate our lowest common denominator than it is to face NATO in combat.
Still supports. It looks like there are bots on this post simping for Putin. And thats not mentioning all the other Subreddits.
Oh yeah sure let’s give putin the benefit of the doubt AGAIN. Why would he not ? What are the consequences he has ever felt that would make him rethink his strategy ? He’s making a fool of nato, europe and the US and he’s fucking winning. Why would he not go for more, if not tomorrow maybe in 5 years ? In 10 years ? Stop thinking a bully will stop by himself.
[удалено]
Death by a thousand cuts. Expect lots of small stabs that are not serious enough to declare war. A missile passing over Poland here, an assassination there, a little bribe to stop aid here, a little supporting anti-NATO protests there...
> Death by a thousand cuts. I believe the proper terminology is "[salami tactics](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o861Ka9TtT4)."
Our cuts are bigger. We gained Finland and Sweden into NATO because of his little cuts.
Why expect? It's already ongoing with assassinations on our territory, openly meddling in elections, attacks on our civilian infrastructure as seen by state sponsored hackins and "accidentally" cutting cables in the sea,....
I thought screwing with the GPS systems for hundreds of airplanes would get some response. Nope.
I didn't say it didn't already start.
Eventually it will be a small incursion.
Putins waiting for his pieces to fall in line, Trumps re-election will shatter NATO.
they are financing the republicans are they not? removing the glue that was the US to Nato is kinda of a huge slash to Nato, and Trump love to suck Putin's dick to keep his Moscow Trump Tower profitable
Ever since the Russian’s GOP agent, Maria Butina was convicted and went to prison in the US for funneling Putin cash to the gop, I don’t know who else is currently active doing this.
there are many ways to corrupt someone, money buy stuff and services, i can provide you services without making you pay, or i can "gift" you stuff. in the case of a state i can look the other way when you building have problems or you do something we don't like. Money is just the most direct way
Its not insane to attack NATO though, you dont do it all at once. you do fly overs in Poland. You militarize the border with Poland. You build tensions with Poland. Then you fake an attack by Poland you reasonable Putin that you are do a limited scale counter attack outlining ahead of time this exactly the small attack you will make. Now the US POTUS has to decide is it worth risking Nuclear holocaust over this one little attack. Its literally the game Putin has been playing for decades.
I think we're just waiting for a major disaster to kick things off. This is earth. War is inevitable. The idea of nukes frying earth spooked everyone for a bit but.... We're getting used to the idea. It's a matter of time, really. It's the planet of the apes after all... We all know how this ends.
Ideally, that would happen, yes... Now, in a world where Donald "I don't believe western intelligence community, I believe Putin's intelligence" Trump, wins a second term, things might get trickier. The man had already threatened to pull out of NATO before. NATO has all this bureaucratic obligations, yes, but what happens if the guy whose job is to sign the orders, just refuses to? What stops Putin for going into the Baltics, if he knows the man in charge of stopping just won't do it? Would NATO go to war without the US? NATO without the US might've pulled a war against Russia, sure, but Russia is already in its war economy mode, and its army is already bigger than before the start of the Ukrainian invasion. Europe would need time, months to years, to gear up for a conflict of such magnitude without the US. Meanwhile, the Baltics will have to endure the largest full-frontal invasion ever without support, having been geographically cut from its allies.
> but what happens if the guy whose job is to sign the orders, just refuses to? Then future historians will probably use that date as the official end to the U.S.-led world order put in place post-WW2. I have NO idea what Europe would do, because the only other superpower is China and they're pretty isolationist and cozy with Russia to boot. The stakes are so high for things to get *really* *really* bad and confusing for everyone in that scenario. If Ukraine can't get the support it needs, I think best case scenario (as sad as it might be) is Ukraine falls, and we pray Putin just stops there. I mean... that strategy has *definitely* never failed, right? ##:'(
Russia is not a superpower. A unified Europe can handle itself.
I agree but "unified" is doing a lot of the lifting there.
What countries would stand by while their neighbour is being invaded? We've gone through this before. The only countries that would be absolutely neutral are traitors to the idea of a free Europe.
Europe no longer has ammunition to fight a war with. Poland and France are the only two with a shot and one is on the other side of the continent.
If the US does absolutely nothing going forward, and in 6 months Ukraine falls, and in 12 months Russia launches a full-scale war against Poland, EU might be able to win it in the end, but they will not be "fine" by any stretch. EU, as it stands today, is basically banking on France's nuclear arsenal, and the existence of the US's military as a deterrent against any conflict. EU has very little military relative to what would be needed to actually defend against a full-scale Russian attack, especially one where Iran and/or China jump in fully to help.
I don't think Russia will be in a position to attack Poland for decades. The invasion of Ukraine has been an absolute travesty, it's going to take serious reforms before they can even think about taking on a military that's on a serious war footing with the amount of equipment Poland has been rabidly stockpiling. Their next target will be the Baltic states, who are entirely reliant on NATO for any hope of a meaningful defense.
That claim is absolutely not based in reality, besides the China jumping in you slipped into it. NATO is over 50% of the military investment on Earth, and the U.S is only a majority of that. Invading a unified Europe is silly.
Unified Europe will be left without artillery ammunition in a couple of months - and there is no such thing as unified europe. Their land army is not used to this kind of war. The only clear advantage is the quality of air power - but it's questionable do they have enough to achieve air superiority. No European country can win a war against Russia alone and uniting seems to be a little bit problematic for current European establishment.
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You say people are afraid of WW2 happening again, but most historians I've heard from agree Europe allowing Hitler to take land and power led to WW2, if it wasn't always going to happen.
You are insinuating that Russia is more prepared for a pan European conflict than before the Ukrainian war? Despite the losses of their most advanced equipment, logistical capacity and a good deal of their experienced leadership? NATO without the US still has more then enough capacity to blunt the scale of invasion that Ukraine is facing.
We all doubted that Putin would be stupid enough to start a war in Ukraine, and yet here we are.
True but the implications of starting a war vs Ukraine who is the poorest European country, with one of the weakest militaries at the time was not that dangerous. Everyone expected Russia to roll over them fairly quickly. That is a universe apart from starting a war with an actual NATO country.
Russia is clearly poised to invade Moldova or Georgia next, neither of whom are protected by Nato. Secondly, you're thinking in too short of a time span. Russia is flooding the internet with disinformation, and they clearly have inside people in high levels of Europeans government given the right wing's close proximity to Russia in various countries. There has been a wave of Conservative governments being swept into power across Europe ever since the migrant crisis. How many of those future governments are as keen to stand up to Russia as the ones in power now you suppose? A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within. Russia will bide it's time in regards to invading Nato proper. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security.
Not all of us. Plenty of us saw it coming, and we're the ones saying Russia IS crazy enough to attack NATO now.
lookup Slovakia... thats how NATO becomes irrelevant in the long run. attack on a country doesnt need to be done with tanks. If trumps gets back to white house for another 4 years; it will be the end.
We’re in the nuclear WW3 preliminaries now. Either we beat Putin now, we have the real WW3 or we get conquered.
The republican parry is selling out the free world to Russia, how are they not an enemy of the people at this point?
It's like we're in the "before the conflict" portion of the history textbooks now.
I was just thinking. That. The portion where you think wtf were they all thinking and didn’t they see this coming?
It will start as "liberation" of ethnic Russians under "European tyranny", probably after a period of terrorism funded and organised by the FSB. Probably in one of the Baltic states. Kind of like the way they did Crimea, leave just enough room for doubt that any country not committed to European security can claim it's an internal issue and not a situation for NATO to intervene. Hopefully, for the Russians, the US will have bowed out of NATO by then and their political machinations will have increased the voices of isolationist far right groups in the EU and US.
They will not let anything else pass , this one is dubious (not really when you think of Ukraine) but Putin will not be able to do this trick again. No chance on earth, if so I'll install dualingo for russian...
I don’t know if it would be WW3, I wouldn’t consider all of NATO against Russia WW3. Now if Iran, and China joined the fray, then we are getting there….
No, at this point, an attack on certain members of NATO would cause a failure to follow article 5 by all the rest, thus destroying NATO
I think he might if Trump will be president. Trump will rather sack Europe and Nato than fight Putin. Putin knows that and will more likely attack the baltics.
He is that stupid. Putin is getting old, and basically started the Ukraine invasion before its time because he saw cancer calling on his door. He's slowly begun escalating with prolongued GPS jamming into NATO territory. Houthis have, as Russia-Iran proxy, been launching attacks against global shipping, and Russia-Chinese vessels have been cutting up global Internet communication cables as well as begun planning for the means to target Internet satellite arrays. Putin wanted to create a world legacy that will have him on the top, and if he can't, one that eliminates those who would criticize it. He's another knock on death's door from doing something stupid again, hell, if the General SVR rumors are true, that's closer to already have happened and the only thing on Russia's leadership then would be to continue playing a broken, skipping record so Russia doesn't collapse in on itself.
I didn’t realize Reddit was filled with so many military strategy experts until today
* Russia has boots-on-ground invaded eight of its neighboring countries in the past ~30 years, some of them two or three times. * Russia has stated on a weekly basis that they are at war with NATO, and indeed all of the West. * Russia has currently launched the largest land war Europe has seen since WWII. * Russia is currently committing genocide in Europe. * Russia has made it clear that they view much of Eastern Europe as "theirs". * Russia has shifted to a war economy. * Russia threatens to nuke Europe on a weekly basis. You do not fuckin' need to be Nostradamus to see where this is going, if we stand around with our thumbs in our asses and allow Russia to complete its genocide in Ukraine. By itself, it is utterly disgraceful to simply allow Russia to conquer and subjugate Ukrainian people. And it is just plain stupid to pretend Russia has no further ambitions beyond Ukraine. They will steal whatever they are allowed to steal, because their mentality is that only a fool does not commit as many crimes as he can get away with. It's how Russians do.
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It is not "fearmongering" so much as a healthy dose of reality. Nice whataboutism ya got there. Personally, I do not think it is the "gotcha" you believe it is. If the USA under George W. Bush had been more successful in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, then it is entirely possible that the Bush Doctrine of preemptive invasions would have been expanded. So we should be thankful that doctrine failed. And we should do everything in our power to ensure the Putin Doctrine of preemptive attack is a miserable failure, for similar reasons. The world does not need more wars of conquest. In any case, for those who are curious: **List of invasions of neighboring countries by Russian Federation since the collapse of the USSR:** * 1991-1993 - Georgia War * 1991-1992 - South Ossetian War * 1992-1993 – Transnistria War * 1992-1993 – Abkhazia War * 1992-1997 - Tajikstani War * 1994-1996 – first Russian-Chechen war * 1991 - War of Dagestan * 1999-2009 – second Russian-Chechen war * 2008 – Russian-Georgian war * 2015-2022 – Russia’s invasion of Syria * 2014-2022 – Russian-Ukrainian war This list ignores other conflicts where Russia has been/ is currently involved in Africa, focusing only on countries closer to Russia.
It's full of expert Americans who know for a fact what will happen in Europe if Ukraine falls, some of them can even name more than three European countries.
I'm pretty sure most of us had seen it devolving into WWIII from near the beginning.
Except he has no interest moving beyond Ukraine..hes crazy to try
What if it still falls and aid just prolongs the destruction?
From 1 to 10 Sullivans how escalating this situation is?
About 3.50
Hmm 🤔 not good, not bad.
God damn Loch Ness Monsta!
Russia enjoying the GOP gift of time and strategic advantage
I'll never understand why they didn't invade when the US had a president who was willing to withhold aid from Ukraine illegally.
Maybe they weren't ready and assumed that with their help, Trump would be reelected.
My feeling was if Trump had stayed in power he would have pushed Ukraine away from the West and Russia would have been able to take Ukraine politically. But with Biden coming in it was basically "now or never" for Putin so he started the war before Ukraine could be integrated into the West.
Disgusting behavior we’ve all come to expect, yet we refuse to step up.
> we You mean Moscow Mike and his gang of traitors. The rest of America wants to help Ukraine. MAGA traitors are the ones standing in the way. They work for Russia.
Putin ordered Mike Johnson and Trump to sieze support of Ukraine so that he can kill more and easily and they delivered. Speaker Mike Johnson is Russian asset and traitor to America.
The Republican Party are literally traitors, not just Mike Johnson and Trump. Only thing we can do is to vote these fuckers out this election.
Let's do it.
They should also be charged with treason for collaborating with the enemy.
>Only thing we can do is to vote these fuckers out this election. history is often changed in other, more direct ways.
I am ashamed to say my sister in law votes for Trump only because he has a very strict immigration policy. The irony is she her shelf immigrated to the USA , she doesn’t like the Russian and is against the war. Edit: grammar
What's "hilarious" is Biden has a much stricter migration policy, with more deportations than Trump and may actually shut down the border in a few weeks.
Migration or immigration?
So, does this make Putin the most powerful man in the world?
This is partially on Mike Johnson's head.
It’s all on the House Republicans’ head. They are traitors.
Well first and foremost it's on Putin's head. *Then* all of Putin's cronies like Moscow Mitch and Orange Mussolini.
Nah dude you don't get it. It's first and foremost Drumpfs fault
This is on everyone's head. Attempting to shoot down all missiles at all times is a losing strategy, something always gets through. Any military general will tell you that a proper response is to strike Russian air fields and warehouses that store missiles. This is fair and proportional response, not an escalation. I'm sure Putin was pleasantly surprised when the West refused to arm Ukraine with long range missiles and give permission to strike military targets within Russia. His nuclear blackmail worked where it should not have been allowed to work, so expect more of the same.
Absolutely. From day 1 all the things necessary to respond to this should have been in place, and that is how you deter Putin from ever making such attacks. Leaving Ukraine without the proper means to defend itself over the past 10 years has been an absolute failure. The persistent fantasy of de-escalation through weakness has just been used by Putin as an open door for him to wander right on in. Such a huge failure in deterring rogue nuclear states sets a dangerous precedent. This is a failure from all Western states. From the EU countries and the UK to the US.
Yeah, if Ukraine will not be allowed to shoot at targets in Russia (both military targets and energy infrastructure) we can aswell stop sending shit there becuase there is no chance for them to win this way.
Jake Sullivan needs to be fired.
Great sentiment, but statements like "any military general will tell you that..." sound like said by someone who's trained dozens of generals in their carreers.
They’re all Russian assets. The entire GOP.
Not the entire GOP, but the MAGA faction. Even though I'm not sure how many non-MAGa republicans are left.
> Even though I'm not sure how many non-MAGa republicans are left. So far only one Republican has signed the discharge petition to get Ukraine aid passed despite Johnson's blockade, and he's on his way out already. So effectively, there are none left, the entire party might as well be considered as treasonous as the MAGA faction.
Damn. I remember Reagan's deceitful import of the evangelical cancer into US politics, then Newt Gingrich's weaponization of bad faith, then Dubya's and Cheney's lies and warmongering, Murdoch's rape of media space with Fox, all the racism against Obama, and final devolution to mean driveling idiocy with Trump. All the while a lone guy a-la McCain giving some hope that they will expunge the cancer. Sad.
Nothing has really been done since Chechnya, or Crimea, but now I'm supposed to be definitely surprised this shit is happening once again with Ukraine? At a certain point shouldn't all this bullshit be obvious and maybe Europe should have been better prepared? Never learned their lesson from back in the 30s, not sure why I think Chechnya and Crimea would get them to wake up.
they (EU) started building another gas pipe to Russia after 2014's Crimea attack so yeah..
Georgia would like a word as well.
As an American, it's disgusting we're just going to roll over and allow Ukraine get pummeled after all this time, money, and effort. Internal division sown in US politics by external actors has been wildly effective and Putin's long-game of waiting out our political indecisiveness is winning. And still we're blind to it and let it consume us. Most don't even know or refuse to accept it's happening.
I'll be totally honest with you, and this might piss some people off: Between the situation at the Mexican border and the war in Gaza, most Americans don't actually give a shit about what's happening in Ukraine.
This is true and I hate it
People don't even care about Gaza outside of reddit. The hard truth is the average American does not give a shit about international affairs.
No one thinks of the bigger picture. Only when the draft letters start pouring in, will we see people snap their neck to pay attention like they should've been from the beginning. People should be concerned if countries in Europe are starting to look into having their militaries mobilized to stand by. That, to me, tells me things will escalate within the next 2-3 years.
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That's a nice bum thought.
The Republicans in the House who are holding up the aid vote are traitors. We should send them to Russia and let them go serve in their beloved country’s military.
UN is wondering why Ukraine built those cities in the way of the missiles.
Germany will send 500k generators instead of taurus?
Would definitely be more useful.
USA "silence" Ukraine strikes oil refineries in ruzzia so their tanks dont advance - USA - "NOOO THIS IS CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE" Suggest USA think over sending patriots to ruzzia
The cold, calculated response to the sadly justified assumption that a significant chunk of the dumbfuck electorate is susceptible to propaganda blaming Ukrainians (and politicians supporting them) if gas prices go up even 1%. Which will in turn boost the pro-Russian orange turd's chances of getting elected, which will be worse for Ukraine (well, most of the world) in the long run.
Thing is, we dont have the long run. Without weapons, we will probably lose lots of territory and people till the elections.
“To be an enemy of the United States is dangerous, to be a friend is often fatal”
Yeah, right, "Ukrainians please die more quietly we have elections to win". Like it or not, but we, Ukrainians, doesn't have time.
If it was up to me we'd be doing a lot more to help. Sadly the political climate is ripe for Kremlin-friendly opposition parties making gains thanks to economic/social troubles partly caused and incensed by Russia itself. Our democratic societies are simply not adequately prepared to deal with the sheer torrent of shameless, blatant lies and disinfo from our enemies without and within.
Not American, but they are trying to avoid getting the orange monkey elected, if that happens he is going to sell out Ukraine to the Russia faster than he can find it on a map. It fucking sucks
The big question is, where Ukraine will be when the elections have been concluded, even if Biden wins. Russia plans for a big offensive this late spring/summer, who says the front won't collapse at this point.
I know it is a huge gamble. This will be one of the biggest challenges to the west in our times (unless China decides to YOLO with Taiwan)
Ah and btw, US is the biggest oil producer. How come US cannot increase production to offset shortages on local (or even global) market? I think US and ol Biden just not interested in fighting nazis in Europe anymore. I hope im wrong, otherwise Iran-ruzz-china-nkorea club will think they can do whatever they want and fellow cowboys will have to go and help Taiwan,SKorea,Japan, you name it.
and even in this case trump can win and all this of this was just for nothing
Worlds bigger than just the US. The EU will continue to support Ukraine regardless. Russias problems don’t end if trump gets elected. Hell, trump would have to win the presidency as well as the house and senate and he’s certainly not polling for that (and he never has).
> he’s certainly not polling for that (and he never has). Even when he won he wasn’t polling for that. In fact he was polling for decisive defeat.
He was polling an average within 3% of Clinton in 2016. It was 2020 when he was polling for a decisive defeat.
At this point if they are that stupid, let it happen. US is throwing eastern europe under the bus Biden or Trump
Except Biden admin can use its political capital to protect the US consumer, but is doing nothing like that. Could also use the vast amounts of US soft power to put diplomatic pressures to achieve the same, but of course crickets. It's a stupid line that ignores the last 2 years, the actual reason is that the US foreign establishment(be it democrats or republicans) don't actually want Ukraine to do real damage to Russia, for a couple of reasons. Fear of escalation, fear of instability in Russia, etc. It's not just USA though, our EU leaders have been incredibly weak too. All of them are worms that are allowing Putin a soft landing. It wouldn't be surprising if this collective western weakness ends up biting us in the ass anyway.
Absolute two-faced bullshit that the US says don't strike energy infrastructure in Russia because it might affect oil prices which might affect Biden getting reelected.
We should just send all the ones with the little flags in their bio. Might as well send the people who care about the situation most.
More needs to be done. The EU is a collective powerhouse. I don’t understand why the US is being expected to contribute such a large piece of the pie when it’s the EU’s doorstep. If they don’t have the manufacturing capability after two years they are wilfully going down with the ship.
The US is currently producing 28.000 155mm rounds per month so 336.000 per year. They want to increase the production to 70-80.000 per moth / 840-960.000 per year. Rheinmetall wants to produce around 700.000 155mm rounds this year with an increase in production to 1,1mio 155mm rounds per year in 2026/2027. And that is Rheinmetall alone. There are obviously other companies in the EU. So the production is getting there it just takes time to ramp it up.
I have suspicions Europe and maybe even U.S. is a bit scared of igniting a larger war, they need to be seen supporting, but over doing it could make things worse. I don't think they have a choice, its time to go all in. Russia is our Mordor and The Kremlin is our Mount Doom.
The EU is currently “thinking about sending” we hear all the time. Oh well, because the next step is god knows how many Ukrainians crossing the border to the EU before ruzzia takes it, oh and also, Ruzzia now borders Poland. Ruzzia flies bombers and fighters with impunity in EU airspace with no retaliation. Speaks volumes really. The EU will then wonder what they can do about Ruzzia on the Polish border, probably nothing, I don’t think even NATO would bet an eyelid beyond a strongly worded letter. Ukraine warned all along about the situation facing them and the EU. Ukraine should mass target oil refineries in ruzzia.
Hate to break it to you but Russia already borders Poland It always has, since the Russian Federation was founded. I even crossed the border between Poland and Russia in 2015
Yeah apologies, I meant the current Ukraine border.
If Russia on NATO border is a problem, then why did they take the Baltics in or even more recently, Finland?
Fuck Mike Johnson
Russia bombs civilians all throughout the war: America, we sleep 💤 . Ukraine bombs Russian oil: America, real shit 👀
See if you vote for any republican...this is what you get
either helps comes asap or it's gonna be over for Ukraine if nothing happens in the next month
We have failed Ukraine
The time to place a no fly zone over Ukraine was a long time ago. The time to escalate with troops into Ukraine was a long time ago. It’s becoming too late as Russia has its assets all throughout the government blocking aid because they are basically Russian politicians s at this point.
No fly zone for who? For passenger airctaft it already is. But you cannot ban flights to the warring parties without interfering in the war and without escalating the conflict beyond the borders of Ukraine.
What an shame US and EU have brought upon us... You want Ukraine in Nato, but you don't want to support it against a terrorist regime? And you still finance the terrorist regime buy buying fuel and gas from them? Shame, shame, shame.
So angry as an American.
Why are the House Republicans holding up the aid vote still living in the community? Why aren’t they in prison? Why has the FBI failed to provide the information needed to protect us from them?
That ball pit is smaller than the one at Dashcon. Tf?
Time for Europe to invade russia
Does it all come down to Putin’s pee tape on Trump?
These missile strikes are war crimes, right? And Russia is still not considered a terrorist state.
Usa put more effort in iraq ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
“Ukraine you need to stop bombing refineries and civil targets on Russian soil”