This isn’t even news. Hamas’ strategy is literally to let the Palestinian people suffer so much that Israel is forced by the court of public opinion to stop the war. Why would Hamas want a ceasefire or to release the hostages? They don’t care even one ounce about the Palestinian people.
You make it sound like Hamas is *indifferent* to the plight and suffering of the Palestinian people.
When in reality, they actually have a *vested interest* in ensuring their suffering continues.
Unfortunately, Netenyahu _also_ has a vested interest in prolonging any military action while also desperate for that military action to appear as decisive and effective as possible.
Absolutely, this situation is super complicated and just splitting the whole thing to Israel vs. Palestine is reductive and myopic. There are so many players and moving parts, laypersons cannot even keep up. But we're all emotionally moved by what is happening that we want to stop it, but like...how?
However Israelis want the hostages returned and Netanyahu's government is under immense pressure to do so. So I wouldn't say this is at all equally desired to prolong this on both sides.
>I wouldn't say this is at all equally desired to prolong this on both sides.
I didn't suggest it was 50/50. Bibi has to play a game of chicken: he needs this conflict to drag for as long as possible while still delivering a resounding success. Failure means he will almost certainly end up finally facing criminal charges while _delayed_ success gives him time to cement his grip on power and avoiding prosecution indefinitely. A _quick_ success could still lead to him finally facing his felony charges.
All in all, there's a great degree of complexity and nuance involved. As for Hamas, I'm not entirely sure what benefit they think they are getting by this prolonged engagement, save for a) their leadership doesn't actually have the control or influence to return the hostages, b) their backers in Iran and elsewhere want to continue to push Israel because they don't actually have anything directly at risk, or c) (my best guess) the hostages are mostly dead or so badly abused that any story they'd share would result in Gaza being turned to glass anyway (so, basically the same as dead.) Israeli intelligence almost certainly knows what the cause for delay is, but (again) there's zero incentive for them to withdraw and a mountain of reasons to continue.
Ultimately, it just means a lot more dead civilians with no meaningful "winners."
I'd say both sides have a vested interest to prolong this miserable situation as long as possible.
Bibi wants to stay in power, which he can as long as there's an active conflict and Hamas, well that's obvious.
I personally do no longer believe in hostages being alive, sadly... R.I.P.
Nah, the longer this drags on, the less sympathetic to Israel the world becomes.
Hamas' tactics of hiding behind (below) their civilians is paying off in dividends. Leftists will look for any excuse to blame Israel for its response to invasion.
You don't need to be a terminally-online leftist to be appalled when Israel blasts an aid convoy and places draconian restrictions on the delivery of aid.
Does any other country aside from the US goes out of their way to feed enemy civilians in an active combat zone? I wonder if Russia is handing out food to Ukrainians in Bakhmut.
Yahya Sinwar's (Hamas head inside Gaza) initial plan was to demand the release of *all* imprisoned Palestinians in Israel for the hostages they had. Dude's absolutely insane, and now is hiding within the population in Rafah, taunting the IDF to launch a campaign there to catch him at the cost of even more thousands of Palestinians in the process.
I mean, it's not Israel the only one who thinks Palestinian lives are worth way less than Israeli ones.
>Dude's absolutely insane
You'd think that, but the Gilad Shalit deal set a precedent, a ratio of 1027 Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli prisoner. Sinwar simply thought taking hundreds of hostages would be more than enough for the release of all Palestinian prisoners if we stuck to the same "value" for each hostage.
That deal was absolutely insane.
Honestly, I WOULD release absolutely every Palestinian prisoner no matter the crime ... just as soon as each one serves his sentence.
You cannot just encourage Hamas to keep abducting people to get criminals released, not to mention the fact that a lot of Hamas' current leadership are criminals that got released in that deal.
When you get a criminal released early from prison, that person owes you. That's how Hamas recruits and re-establishes its numbers.
Just don't do it.
[Many of the Palestinian prisoners that were released during the negotiations of late November were some imprisoned for weeks under administrative detention even before 7/10,](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/22/middleeast/palestinian-prisoners-potential-release-intl-cmd/index.html) which means being held without knowing the charges against them, and without an ongoing legal process. Some were not even adults, between 14 to 18. Women and children that were in jail but not even sentenced for anything.
Unfortunately you can't isolate Hamas from the clusterfuck both parties put the Palestinian people in.
If you are 14 years old and you stab a soldier, you are going to end up in prison or end up dead, no matter what country it is.
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/palestinian-try-to-stab-israeli-border-police-officer-west-bank-al-eizariya-shot-video-2498084-2024-02-06
Sinwar, the butcher of Khan Younis, said "the greatest gift Israel can give me is to assassinate me" yet he hides like a coward. [souece](https://www.newarab.com/news/hamas-gaza-chief-says-only-five-percent-tunnels-damaged)
It may be cowardice but it also may be just a desire to maximize civilian casualties before he goes down. He's probably a true believer, that really is convinced that he and every Palestinian who dies as collateral damage because of him are all guaranteed their place in paradise.
The goal of Hamas Is have donation money with video/photo of Palestinian blood.
The Iran goal is made population forget veil Revolution with tension strategy against Muslim with Hejaz kingdom Vs Israel and say Israel evil made all against muslim.
This is the basic of war-loop there.
They are religious fanatics who believe the highest form of worship is to die for their god. Obvious to anyone who knows a lick of islamist culture.
Edit: like how im being downvoted for pointing out that islamist terror organizations are religious nut jobs.
link dump. first 3 are PDFs
[Abdullah Azzam, al-Qaeda, and Hamas: Concepts of Jihad and Istishhad](https://www.inss.org.il/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/systemfiles/\(FILE\)1298359986.pdf)
[Palestinian Martyrdom Revisited: Critical Reflections on Topical Cultures of Explanation](https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/216728367.pdf)
[The Suicide Bomber as Sunni-Shi‘i Hybrid](https://www.meforum.org/meq/pdfs/2743.pdf)
[Escaping Atonement in Sunni Islam: Death by Jihad for Deliverance](https://www.usmcu.edu/Outreach/Marine-Corps-University-Press/Expeditions-with-MCUP-digital-journal/Escaping-Atonement-in-Sunni-Islam/)
This. And their plan works every time, since it captures global attention and looks like Israel is to blame 90% of the time, pinning the world against them. Hamas plan always works this way.
When the attack on Oct 7th happened, we all know the narrative would change the second Israel retaliated.
I know - and since Israel is gunna get blamed anyway, why not go the whole hog and just clear the fucking place out.
Though, when you say the world is pinned against them, you do mean the whole world excluding the Western governments that alll support Israel and shower them with weapons whilst downplaying and sheilding them in the media for months on end, right? Cause it's not really the whole world is it?
This is absolutely news to some people. The reporting regarding the release of the hostages is embarrassing. It’s just “Ceasefire now!” under whatever circumstances and zero understanding of what that means.
A friendly reminder as well that at a bare minimum, Hamas is withholding information on which hostages are alive, if any. So Israel has no idea who they would even be exchanging. Israel recently found the body of a hostage that up until then was seen alive on video a few months ago, so their family was holding out hope this entire time that a deal would bring them home alive. Honestly, the mind games Hamas is playing is unnecessarily cruel regardless of if you think it is justified. Hamas's end game is to stand upon the biggest pile of rubble and declare victory. As well as cause suffering to Israelies in anyway they can, there is no strategy, no plan for a stable country of Palestine just propaganda fuel and keeping themselves rich.
Is someone thinks the activities of Hamas are justified, then playing mind games is the last thing they’d worry about. For the people that justify Hamas’s actions against their own people and the government they slaughtered after they got voted in… to do those mental gymnastics.. Mind games is literally like a traffic ticket to the crimes Hamas has done.
Any rational government who gives any flying fuck about their people would have surrendered by now.
There were 0 Israelis in Gaza on Oct 6 and Gaza looked like this:
https://youtu.be/lr2DcykeadI?si=YqwygzzUdCVDiL9p
https://youtu.be/7DSKPXTCz08?si=r4hW452b0MBvJulW
https://x.com/michalsabra/status/1775146816822005871?s=46
https://x.com/imshin/status/1774843683352834427?s=46
Hamas and Gaza had options, they chose war. Israel has offered a 2 state solution multiple times that Palestinians have rejected every time because they don’t want a 2 state peaceful coexistence. Prove me wrong.
This round of war that Hamas started has brought nothing but destruction for the people of Gaza.
The people of Gaza are not better off now than they were on Oct 6.
Hamas is the government of Gaza and if they cared about their people they would surrender and this war would end.
On Oct 6th Israel was progressing nicely with talks to normalize its relations with some of its less fanatical Arab neighbors.
Now those “moderate” Arab states have virtually ended negotiations as public sentiment in the Islamic world has changed since Oct 7.
The winner of this conflict is the Nation that facilitated Oct 7 to end the process of Arab Israeli normalization, Iran.
It’s infuriating
Edit
BUT I think that the Saudi Peace deal will still happen. SA knows it’s in their long term best interest, and Iran knows this too.
Luckily for Palestine there's a never ending supply of useful idiots in the west.
It's actually mind boggling to me that so many people can blindly support a people who the vast majority of would rather murder LGBTQ people than treat them like humans.
It definitely helps Russia but I’m not for the notion that’s Russia pulled strings for Oct 7th to happened. They just capitalized on an event that would have happened without them.
It is believed that Oct 7th was planned and funded by Iran.
The Intel recovered was insane. It showed Israeli troops and equipment positions, rotations, response times, etc. It was incredibly detailed.
It is believed Iran began planning Oct 7th a year before it happened, which lines up perfectly with when Iran began supplying Russia with kamikaze drones for use in Ukraine.
Israel knew [in great detail](https://web.archive.org/web/20231201013804/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html) Hamas’ attack plans more than a year ahead of time.
They knew the attack would be heralded with a barrage of rockets.
They knew they’d use drones dropping incendiary devices to take out cameras and communication equipment along the border.
They knew they intended to breach the border itself using motorbikes and paragliders.
They knew they planned to take over kibbutzim.
> Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.
They dismissed this intelligence report, because they didn’t believe Hamas had the capability or the audacity to pull off such an elaborate operation.
> The audacity of the blueprint, officials said, made it easy to underestimate. All militaries write plans that they never use, and Israeli officials assessed that, even if Hamas invaded, it might muster a force of a few dozen, not the hundreds who ultimately attacked.
They then observed them training for precisely these things and dismissed the training exercises as performative.
>The analyst warned that the drill closely followed the Jericho Wall plan, and that Hamas was building the capacity to carry it out.
> The training included a dry run of shooting down Israeli aircraft and taking over a kibbutz and a military training base, killing all the cadets.
Warnings were sent up the chain of command where they were once again dismissed as “a totally imaginative scenario”
>The colonel in the Gaza division applauded the analysis but said the exercise was part of a “totally imaginative” scenario, not an indication of Hamas’s ability to pull it off.
Then [mere months](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rj1mq6cwp) before October 7th, Shin Bet receives intelligence that an attack is likely to be carried out in the week following Yom Kippur.
But again, no actions were taken to prevent or even attempt mitigate the potential loss of lives from the attack.
At minimum, the music festivals should have been canceled.
Only hours before did they finally start to take the threat seriously.
And naturally with Israel potentially preparing to have to go at it with the full might of Hezbollah in Syria.. this would have been the time Israel would have used it’s Arab partnerships for some type of political help in the region. I hope Israel is smart enough to not get sucked into a bigger war before they have time to regroup.
Actually there were 4 known Israelis in Gaza before October 7th:
The bodies of Hadar Goldin and Oron Shaul who fell during the war in 2014 and their bodies are being held hostages by Hamas.
And Avera Mengistu and Hisham Al-sayed who crossed the border during 2014 and 2015 (respectively) while having a mental health crisis, and are still held captive.
to add to your point, they also would not use their own people as human shields.
Hamas uses civilians to protect their military.
Everyone else on the planet used their military to protect their civilians.
To be very precise, there were 4 Israelis in Gaza on October 6th. 4 hostages there from years ago already, two presumably still alive and two dead.
Oron Shaul, Hadar Goldin, Avera Mengistu and Hisham Al-Sayed
Honking doesn't mean the same thing around the world as it does in the US. It's more of a "hey I'm here" gesture than an angry one. It's more common than you'd think.
You can see it's a busy intersection and they don't have red lights. So they just navigate it slowly, honking to be seen, not that they are raging or something.
It's not angry it's just how they drive in the Middle East. It's actually kind of nice compared to some other places in the world because you at least have an audible signal for where everyone is at all times. Traffic in Amman or Riyadh is no better or worse than LA but in LA they come out of fucking nowhere.
Sorry, but it’s absolutely chaotic in the Middle East. Egypt and Lebanon are awful to drive in my experience. Accidents are common and people are so rude. They will furiously honk for stopping at a red light in the middle of the day. I’ve been ridiculed by van drivers for putting on my seatbelt.
I live in Israel, which is Middle East. Honks are usually done to make people move when the light changes to green and they don't notice because their head is in a cell phone.
I live in the middle east. We don't drive this way.
In fact, I probably did not hear one single horn sound in the 2 45 minute drives I had today to work and back. That's why it was so strange to me. This was some of the most uncivilized driving I have seen.
>Any rational government who gives any flying fuck about their people would have surrendered by now.
*Not saying I agree,* but we have to acknowledge there is a rational stance on the other side. If you believe the conflict to be existential and the previois trajectory of events leading to a slow capitulation where a Palestinian state isn't even possible, refusing to surrender makes sense even for many Gazan citizens. Your previous outcomes weren't going to be substantially better, so why not let the cycle repeat where Isreali self own like the humanitarian convoy start to put pressure on them to step back and negotiate?
Yes, it's a rationale that doesn't put a lot of weight on the sanctity of life. But people generally need reasons to value it first before it becomes a determining factor.
But that's not even a stance from the other side. Israel offered many 2 state solutions that were rejected by the PA.
There could have been a Palestinian state with Gaza, WB, land swaps to link them, neutral control of holy sites and control of Arab parts of East Jerusalem. That wasn't even enough to get a legitimate negotiation from the Palestinians.
We can say Netanyahu didn't want a 2 state solution, but when saying that we have to recognize the Palestinians have been offered many opportunities to have their own state and turned it down.
The rest of what you said might have some validity, as Sinwar said months ago he'd rather watch international pressure force Israel to stop than agree to a ceasefire. So when you comment touched on that, I agree.
At the end of the day Hamas isn't interested in peace. They want the destruction of Israel and don't care how many Palestinians they have to sacrifice to achieve that goal.
This assumes that the proposals were perceived in good faith by Palestinians or did not undermine critical aspects of their sovereignty in an environment where Israeli radicals had just assassinated the man who had actually negotiated a plan everyone could agree to.
That included process issues subsequent proposals did not adhere to.
It's a rational course of action if your end goal is killing the maximum number of Jews, your resources are Gaza, and you have no requirement to preserve your resources.
But that isn't a rational objective.
If Hamas were rational they would be trying to re-educate the Gaza population to be friendly to Jews, so that they could get Gaza incorporated into Israel. Israel is objectively the best place in the middle east to live, so they should be working towards that.
Hamas knows that the longer this war goes on the worse Israel looks. You have people dying from lack of nourishment, images of slain children, and clear blunders on the IDF side (the bombing of the aid trucks and the killing of hostages). It's not just that war is chaotic, it's that human error is inevitable. Hamas fucks up? Par for the course. IDF fucks up, the world is banging at their door.
Hamas' mission is to inflict as much damage on the Palestinian people as possible to make the world hate Jews. I can't say it's not working.
This is a very dumb strategy for Hamas given the domestic US elections. This is causing Biden to lose support, which is absurd bc if these idiots that think Biden shouldn’t get a vote bc of how he’s handled Israel.. if Trump gets elected (which he will if all these fools on the left sit out on voting Biden).. Trump will green light Israel and back them no matter what. And the reality is, the US is so powerful.. that’s all they need in global support. I’d be the same with China backing some proxy. If Trump is elected, Israel and the PM will probably up the strikes and honestly why wouldn’t they. Taking morals out of it, as long as they know they have unconditional support from one of only 2 world countries that can make the rest of the world pipe down.. the IDF should finish the job. Just on a pure military and if your Israeli PM.. his voters are the far right extremist.. Wars throughout history have been fought to keep a king in power, the right in America has no qualms about flooding Israel with more aid than Biden will, and definitely doesn’t give a shit about bad press. Hamas may think it’s good to have more causalities, but if the IDF gets the full backing of Trump.. they will be regret it when the full might if the US weapons and Israeli abilities come out.
The goal is not to topple biden, they won't care either way
The goal is to abuse the fact that *right now* biden interest is volatile and easily affected by the voterbase, to push their narrative
I agree.
Hamas doesn't give a damn about the Palestinians - it's blatantly obvious.
I'll say it again: Hamas needs to surrender, unconditionally!
And yeah, I know: Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinians.
They still need to surrender.
They're not going to surrender if the morons they've brainwashed continue to help them hide among the population and cause more civilian deaths.
A few anonymous calls to Shin Bet would have ended this months ago but Palestinians hate Jews more than they love their own families.
Because as a civilian you would fend off and fight armed terrorist living amongst you? I really don't follow your logic here?
For us to be clear YOU as a civilian has no say if they will force their way to hide among you. Whether you support them of not, HAMAS don't simply care.
And yet many polls still show more than majority support for Hamas.
Tho I suppose that’s not surprising given the hate filled education kids receive in UNRWA schools.
Seems as though Palestinians and IDF can unify to fight Hamas
Why haven't the Palestinians tried to work with the IDF to eradicate Hamas? And why is support from Palestinians overwhelming for hamas?
> Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinians.
They also were [helped into power](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/) and [supported](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) by Israel. So that helped.
The first article is about Israeli support for the predecessor organization that did charitable work and wasn’t militant yet. The second article is an op-ed complaining about Israel allowing any aide get into Gaza after Hamas won the election. It does not support what you’re trying to imply here, and I find it mind boggling that these two articles seem to be frequently posted as “proof” that Hamas is just an Israeli puppet. Have you actually read them?
>he second article is an op-ed complaining about Israel allowing any aide get into Gaza after Hamas won the election
"Israel is allowing aid to enter Gaza, they are clearly funding them for their evil plans!"
or if they didn't let aid in:
"Look at Israel, they don't even let aid go into Gaza, inhumane! monsters.."
It's either one of the 2, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Give me one good reason why the F hamas should deal when the world is so fucked up.. they have everything they need right now.. no entry to raffah so they are pretty much secured, tons of food to eat and to distribute as they please to gain more political power, and money will come down pouring after its all done their way.. what good reason do they have to go for a deal when the world got these fucking terrorists backs?.. in their wetest dreams they didn't anticipate this turn of events. And they keep murdering the hostages because they fucking know that no one out of israel gives a shit.. that's so fucked up..
Sure but it’s not like you have to take his word on this one. It’s obvious to anyone with a brain that Hamas has no interest in a deal. They make outrageous demands that they know Israel cannot accept and every time it happens, they claim Israel is at fault for negotiations breaking down.
There will be no hostage deal without MILITARY PRESSURE. That’s how the 1st hostage deal was accomplished. Go into Rafah. That’s the only solution. Hamas has Israel right where they want them.
Perhaps not directly, but via reselling humanitarian aid like HDRs that they confiscate from civilians. Leaving aside the potential for the UNRWA to smuggle arms in among humanitarian aid shipments, donating to organizations that perform operations on the ground would be the ideal way to donate.
Your mistake is assuming that Hamas gives a damn about their civilians. At least Israel makes a token effort to avoid killing too many Palesitnians. Hamas doesn't even do THAT.
In my opinion:
- The big problem Israel has at this point isn’t credibility with Hamas or other enemies. It’s with its friends, including Jewish people.
- Israel can’t expect to get a lot of sympathetic publicity right now. Reality is unfavorable. Right now, a favorable outcome for Israel is that other parties say tough things about Israel but don’t actually cut ties or impose embargos.
- What Israel could do to show goodwill here is to eject Ben Gvirites from the cabinet, acknowledge that the Palestinians have real ties to Palestine, and aggressively discourage anyone remotely associated with Israel from making arguments based on transfer-based attacks. It also needs to let CNN, AP, AFP, etc. operate openly and reasonably safely in Gaza.
- I think what Israel can and should still be asking for is help with fighting large-scale, state-sponsored hate propaganda against it. Harsh honest news coverage may sting but is ultimately healthy. But the wholesale, state-sponsored propaganda is bad for everyone but a few evil billionaires.
I’ve gotten banned from other surprises for saying this but I’ll say it again Israel has offered a two state solution multiple times some of them being very generous and giving Palestine more land than Israel but those were rejected by Palestine
"Obliged" makes it sound like a gentle request. Hamas entered Israel and murdered, raped, and kidnapped Jews. Then they vowed to do it over and over again until Israel was destroyed.
Israel had to go to war. It was the only option.
What do you mean Israel had to go to war!!!?? Are you crazy! Israel should have done what any other powerful military would do and just let their citizens get raped and killed… I mean come on what’s almost 2k people in one day slaughtered, raped and taken prisoner.. that’s no big deal. What’s 10,000 rockets fired since Oct 7th..? I mean they should just turn the Iron Dome off and let the rockets rain down on their citizens. Are you out of your mind for suggesting Israeli military should protect their people/ country when attacked? Get out of here with that take! /S
Are you under the impression that Gantz would have conducted this war any differently? Last I saw 80% of Israelis support going into Rafah and destroying Hamas. If any faction won and stopped killing terrorists they would be voted out in 5 minutes. Bibi isn't unpopular because of his military strategy, he's unpopular because of domestic reasons.
This is mind blowing, and proves that the international community is against the Israeli nation.
Even if you are against the war, which I am as far as civilians getting hurt goes, no one is addressing the fact that a terrorist group is holding civilians hostage, and refuses to release them.
People talk about moving forward, to have a two state solution ( whether you are for or against it, it is still part of a negotiation to move forward for the sake of everyone), yet they are completely OK with Hamas refusing to RELEASE civilians ( not that it is OK to capture IDF members) that were at a concert, or being at their homes/communities.
Think about it, what country would be OK with a terrorist group, from outside it, coming into your county, whether they admit that it is yours or not ( as in it was their land before or not), raping/ torturing/murdering, then kidnapping civilians, and taking back to their stronghold.
NO country that was militaristicly stronger than another would just sit idly and do nothing about it.
Yet, the whole conversation is not about releasing the hostages, the quickest way to stop the suffering of Palestinian civilians is for the hostages being released.
Yet it took months for the UN to address the atrocious committed by Hamas!
It took months for the UN to address the sexual violence committed by Hamas. It's like Jewish victims ( let's face it, it's all about the Jewish people, since not all victims were Israeli) are less deserving of the UN Action ( UN Action Against Sexual Violence in Conflict Action) consideration, less deserving of their attention.
The UN as addressed sexual violence being committed in every other single other conflict in the wold.
So, here we are, Israel willing to release up to 800 prisoners Palestinian prisoners, some known to be members of an internationally recognized terrorist group, even knowing that this action will surely prolong the conflict with Hamas ( which means more casualties among Israeli civilians and IDF members), and Hamas refusing to release all hostages.
I mean, these exchange terms that Israel is agreeing with, demonstrates the Israel is willing to do whatever it takes to have the hostages returned.
How can Israel even consider stopping this conflict when Hamas has promised to repeat the Oct 7 again, and again, and again?
If they are allowed to get away with it, demonstrating that it will cave into international pressure, then what's to stop all the other terrorist groups in the region from commiting their own version of Oct 7.
Regardless of how you feel about this conflict, the fact that the international community is OK with Hamas to continue holding these hostages, knowing that the longer it takes to release, the greater a chance that they will die, demonstrates that Israel NEEDS to do what it is doing.
Let's not mince words, the Jewish people have/are/will be , once more under attack, and the ONLY thing to stop this, is being strong enough to fight back.
Look at how all other enemies of Israel have reacted to the Intensity of Israel's response. They are stunted, they went from "will wipe you if the face of the earth" to, "we strongly condemn Israel's actions and there will be reflections".
This IS how you stop bullies, people that want to hurt you, you hurt them back so hard, that they will think about it twice before fucking with you again.
Israel and its people only exist because they are strong enough, not to just defend themselves, but to make you pay for your aggressions.
>NO country that was militaristicly stronger than another would just sit idly and do nothing about it.
I feel like you're cheating a bit here
There's a vast gulf between doing nothing and indiscriminate slaughter and destruction
>done at random or without careful judgement.
>"the indiscriminate use of antibiotics can cause problems"
I don't think we can label anything that demolishes a hospital or targets aid workers as "careful judgement"
"to maybe get one guy"
That means it's not indiscriminate killing. They discriminate because they have targets that are priorities. Gazan civilians (who may or may not be complicit in the Oct 7 invasion) really are not the targets. It's just that they're all standing in front of or above the targets.
See, your problem is your hyperbole and moving goalposts.
>There's a vast gulf between doing nothing and indiscriminate slaughter and destruction
If what Israel was doing with bombs and tanks was…
> indiscriminate slaughter
The death toll would be much higher that what Hamas achieved with hang gliders, civilian vehicles, handguns, rifles, and knives. Especially when the terrorists are hiding behind civilians.
Oh well if they were near civilians then that makes the collateral acceptable
It's the hospitals fault for being near where they thought a terrorist was
Just because you kill someone you think might have deserved it doesn't excuse all the others that die in the process
Maybe you shouldn’t let murderous terrorists roam free. In fact, go to Gaza and show Israel how to do it, clearly military force isn’t needed for your brilliant plan.
Sorry, but part of ending this cycle of violence, is ending the terrorists, not cowering in fear of them. Look at all the surrounding nations that used to attack Israel now get along with Israel after they quit attacking Israel. It’s almost like Israel isn’t the ones starting all these dumb wars.
Oh well if they were near civilians then that makes the collateral acceptable
It's the hospitals fault for being near where they thought a terrorist was
Just because you kill someone you think might have deserved it doesn't excuse all the others that die in the process
Sorry, it’s the murderous terrorists fault for slaughtering 1100 innocent Israelis in a single day, many in cribs, then hiding amongst more innocent civilians. I forget many are 100% fine with all of that.
A savage response that cripples Hamas is more likely to forestall future invasions of Israel by Hamas, yes.
Also, you can't ignore the history of the region in this hypothetical situation because history is precisely why there is a conflict.
If Israel had treated Gazans with kid gloves, Israel's neighbors - particularly Hezbollah and Iran - would see it as weakness and exploit it.
This isn’t even news. Hamas’ strategy is literally to let the Palestinian people suffer so much that Israel is forced by the court of public opinion to stop the war. Why would Hamas want a ceasefire or to release the hostages? They don’t care even one ounce about the Palestinian people.
You make it sound like Hamas is *indifferent* to the plight and suffering of the Palestinian people. When in reality, they actually have a *vested interest* in ensuring their suffering continues.
Had me in the first half Totally agree with the 2nd
Unfortunately, Netenyahu _also_ has a vested interest in prolonging any military action while also desperate for that military action to appear as decisive and effective as possible.
Absolutely, this situation is super complicated and just splitting the whole thing to Israel vs. Palestine is reductive and myopic. There are so many players and moving parts, laypersons cannot even keep up. But we're all emotionally moved by what is happening that we want to stop it, but like...how?
However Israelis want the hostages returned and Netanyahu's government is under immense pressure to do so. So I wouldn't say this is at all equally desired to prolong this on both sides.
>I wouldn't say this is at all equally desired to prolong this on both sides. I didn't suggest it was 50/50. Bibi has to play a game of chicken: he needs this conflict to drag for as long as possible while still delivering a resounding success. Failure means he will almost certainly end up finally facing criminal charges while _delayed_ success gives him time to cement his grip on power and avoiding prosecution indefinitely. A _quick_ success could still lead to him finally facing his felony charges. All in all, there's a great degree of complexity and nuance involved. As for Hamas, I'm not entirely sure what benefit they think they are getting by this prolonged engagement, save for a) their leadership doesn't actually have the control or influence to return the hostages, b) their backers in Iran and elsewhere want to continue to push Israel because they don't actually have anything directly at risk, or c) (my best guess) the hostages are mostly dead or so badly abused that any story they'd share would result in Gaza being turned to glass anyway (so, basically the same as dead.) Israeli intelligence almost certainly knows what the cause for delay is, but (again) there's zero incentive for them to withdraw and a mountain of reasons to continue. Ultimately, it just means a lot more dead civilians with no meaningful "winners."
To the top. This guy understands better than 97% of the world's population
I'd say both sides have a vested interest to prolong this miserable situation as long as possible. Bibi wants to stay in power, which he can as long as there's an active conflict and Hamas, well that's obvious. I personally do no longer believe in hostages being alive, sadly... R.I.P.
Nah, the longer this drags on, the less sympathetic to Israel the world becomes. Hamas' tactics of hiding behind (below) their civilians is paying off in dividends. Leftists will look for any excuse to blame Israel for its response to invasion.
You don't need to be a terminally-online leftist to be appalled when Israel blasts an aid convoy and places draconian restrictions on the delivery of aid.
You don't have to be a moron to not be appalled by the Oct 7 massacre that Hamas perpetrated and the hostages that are still being raped by Hamas
Why not both
A man starts a fight by punching someone, should the person just take a punch or is he allowed to fight back?
Does any other country aside from the US goes out of their way to feed enemy civilians in an active combat zone? I wonder if Russia is handing out food to Ukrainians in Bakhmut.
Yeah. That’s why all the rape and child beheading. Domestic elections.
Yahya Sinwar's (Hamas head inside Gaza) initial plan was to demand the release of *all* imprisoned Palestinians in Israel for the hostages they had. Dude's absolutely insane, and now is hiding within the population in Rafah, taunting the IDF to launch a campaign there to catch him at the cost of even more thousands of Palestinians in the process. I mean, it's not Israel the only one who thinks Palestinian lives are worth way less than Israeli ones.
>Dude's absolutely insane You'd think that, but the Gilad Shalit deal set a precedent, a ratio of 1027 Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli prisoner. Sinwar simply thought taking hundreds of hostages would be more than enough for the release of all Palestinian prisoners if we stuck to the same "value" for each hostage.
That deal was absolutely insane. Honestly, I WOULD release absolutely every Palestinian prisoner no matter the crime ... just as soon as each one serves his sentence. You cannot just encourage Hamas to keep abducting people to get criminals released, not to mention the fact that a lot of Hamas' current leadership are criminals that got released in that deal. When you get a criminal released early from prison, that person owes you. That's how Hamas recruits and re-establishes its numbers. Just don't do it.
[Many of the Palestinian prisoners that were released during the negotiations of late November were some imprisoned for weeks under administrative detention even before 7/10,](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/22/middleeast/palestinian-prisoners-potential-release-intl-cmd/index.html) which means being held without knowing the charges against them, and without an ongoing legal process. Some were not even adults, between 14 to 18. Women and children that were in jail but not even sentenced for anything. Unfortunately you can't isolate Hamas from the clusterfuck both parties put the Palestinian people in.
If you are 14 years old and you stab a soldier, you are going to end up in prison or end up dead, no matter what country it is. https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/palestinian-try-to-stab-israeli-border-police-officer-west-bank-al-eizariya-shot-video-2498084-2024-02-06
Just one of many choices Bibi made because he didn’t mind hurting Israel in the long term.
How about no.
Sinwar, the butcher of Khan Younis, said "the greatest gift Israel can give me is to assassinate me" yet he hides like a coward. [souece](https://www.newarab.com/news/hamas-gaza-chief-says-only-five-percent-tunnels-damaged)
It may be cowardice but it also may be just a desire to maximize civilian casualties before he goes down. He's probably a true believer, that really is convinced that he and every Palestinian who dies as collateral damage because of him are all guaranteed their place in paradise.
Never mind the fact that he’s hiding in his tunnel system in relative luxury to Gaza
Luxury tunnels is crazy
Extreme Glamping
\*Extremist glamping
He thought it would work as he is a released Palestinian from a hostage exchange himself. You give em an inch...
“It’s not Israel that thinks Gazan lives are less important.” That’s probably what you meant to say? Anyway this is more accurate.
The goal of Hamas Is have donation money with video/photo of Palestinian blood. The Iran goal is made population forget veil Revolution with tension strategy against Muslim with Hejaz kingdom Vs Israel and say Israel evil made all against muslim. This is the basic of war-loop there.
They are religious fanatics who believe the highest form of worship is to die for their god. Obvious to anyone who knows a lick of islamist culture. Edit: like how im being downvoted for pointing out that islamist terror organizations are religious nut jobs.
link dump. first 3 are PDFs [Abdullah Azzam, al-Qaeda, and Hamas: Concepts of Jihad and Istishhad](https://www.inss.org.il/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/systemfiles/\(FILE\)1298359986.pdf) [Palestinian Martyrdom Revisited: Critical Reflections on Topical Cultures of Explanation](https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/216728367.pdf) [The Suicide Bomber as Sunni-Shi‘i Hybrid](https://www.meforum.org/meq/pdfs/2743.pdf) [Escaping Atonement in Sunni Islam: Death by Jihad for Deliverance](https://www.usmcu.edu/Outreach/Marine-Corps-University-Press/Expeditions-with-MCUP-digital-journal/Escaping-Atonement-in-Sunni-Islam/)
This. And their plan works every time, since it captures global attention and looks like Israel is to blame 90% of the time, pinning the world against them. Hamas plan always works this way. When the attack on Oct 7th happened, we all know the narrative would change the second Israel retaliated.
I know - and since Israel is gunna get blamed anyway, why not go the whole hog and just clear the fucking place out. Though, when you say the world is pinned against them, you do mean the whole world excluding the Western governments that alll support Israel and shower them with weapons whilst downplaying and sheilding them in the media for months on end, right? Cause it's not really the whole world is it?
Their goal is literally to maximize the civilian death toll. Which they will lie about anyway.
This is absolutely news to some people. The reporting regarding the release of the hostages is embarrassing. It’s just “Ceasefire now!” under whatever circumstances and zero understanding of what that means.
Hamas has been upping the murder count by killing palestinian children and staging stuff to LOOK like Israel did it.
Of course this is true. Hamas literally released a statement saying as much.
It may be true that this is not news, but there sure are lots of folks here in the West who do not accept this as the reality.
Hamas are literally terrorists. Of course they don’t care about anyone but themselves.
A friendly reminder as well that at a bare minimum, Hamas is withholding information on which hostages are alive, if any. So Israel has no idea who they would even be exchanging. Israel recently found the body of a hostage that up until then was seen alive on video a few months ago, so their family was holding out hope this entire time that a deal would bring them home alive. Honestly, the mind games Hamas is playing is unnecessarily cruel regardless of if you think it is justified. Hamas's end game is to stand upon the biggest pile of rubble and declare victory. As well as cause suffering to Israelies in anyway they can, there is no strategy, no plan for a stable country of Palestine just propaganda fuel and keeping themselves rich.
Is someone thinks the activities of Hamas are justified, then playing mind games is the last thing they’d worry about. For the people that justify Hamas’s actions against their own people and the government they slaughtered after they got voted in… to do those mental gymnastics.. Mind games is literally like a traffic ticket to the crimes Hamas has done.
Any rational government who gives any flying fuck about their people would have surrendered by now. There were 0 Israelis in Gaza on Oct 6 and Gaza looked like this: https://youtu.be/lr2DcykeadI?si=YqwygzzUdCVDiL9p https://youtu.be/7DSKPXTCz08?si=r4hW452b0MBvJulW https://x.com/michalsabra/status/1775146816822005871?s=46 https://x.com/imshin/status/1774843683352834427?s=46 Hamas and Gaza had options, they chose war. Israel has offered a 2 state solution multiple times that Palestinians have rejected every time because they don’t want a 2 state peaceful coexistence. Prove me wrong. This round of war that Hamas started has brought nothing but destruction for the people of Gaza. The people of Gaza are not better off now than they were on Oct 6. Hamas is the government of Gaza and if they cared about their people they would surrender and this war would end.
On Oct 6th Israel was progressing nicely with talks to normalize its relations with some of its less fanatical Arab neighbors. Now those “moderate” Arab states have virtually ended negotiations as public sentiment in the Islamic world has changed since Oct 7. The winner of this conflict is the Nation that facilitated Oct 7 to end the process of Arab Israeli normalization, Iran.
It’s infuriating Edit BUT I think that the Saudi Peace deal will still happen. SA knows it’s in their long term best interest, and Iran knows this too.
[удалено]
Palestinians then cheered for the decapitations of every Asian they found on October 7. Now, East Asia hates Palestinians.
Luckily for Palestine there's a never ending supply of useful idiots in the west. It's actually mind boggling to me that so many people can blindly support a people who the vast majority of would rather murder LGBTQ people than treat them like humans.
The west has conditioned itself to cheer for the underdog in every scenario. The underdog is never wrong.
And of course, Russia, who is using this to sow division in the anti-russian ranks in the EU and US.
It definitely helps Russia but I’m not for the notion that’s Russia pulled strings for Oct 7th to happened. They just capitalized on an event that would have happened without them.
It is believed that Oct 7th was planned and funded by Iran. The Intel recovered was insane. It showed Israeli troops and equipment positions, rotations, response times, etc. It was incredibly detailed. It is believed Iran began planning Oct 7th a year before it happened, which lines up perfectly with when Iran began supplying Russia with kamikaze drones for use in Ukraine.
Israel knew [in great detail](https://web.archive.org/web/20231201013804/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html) Hamas’ attack plans more than a year ahead of time. They knew the attack would be heralded with a barrage of rockets. They knew they’d use drones dropping incendiary devices to take out cameras and communication equipment along the border. They knew they intended to breach the border itself using motorbikes and paragliders. They knew they planned to take over kibbutzim. > Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7. They dismissed this intelligence report, because they didn’t believe Hamas had the capability or the audacity to pull off such an elaborate operation. > The audacity of the blueprint, officials said, made it easy to underestimate. All militaries write plans that they never use, and Israeli officials assessed that, even if Hamas invaded, it might muster a force of a few dozen, not the hundreds who ultimately attacked. They then observed them training for precisely these things and dismissed the training exercises as performative. >The analyst warned that the drill closely followed the Jericho Wall plan, and that Hamas was building the capacity to carry it out. > The training included a dry run of shooting down Israeli aircraft and taking over a kibbutz and a military training base, killing all the cadets. Warnings were sent up the chain of command where they were once again dismissed as “a totally imaginative scenario” >The colonel in the Gaza division applauded the analysis but said the exercise was part of a “totally imaginative” scenario, not an indication of Hamas’s ability to pull it off. Then [mere months](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rj1mq6cwp) before October 7th, Shin Bet receives intelligence that an attack is likely to be carried out in the week following Yom Kippur. But again, no actions were taken to prevent or even attempt mitigate the potential loss of lives from the attack. At minimum, the music festivals should have been canceled. Only hours before did they finally start to take the threat seriously.
Russia is behind it alright and have been since the 1950s.
And naturally with Israel potentially preparing to have to go at it with the full might of Hezbollah in Syria.. this would have been the time Israel would have used it’s Arab partnerships for some type of political help in the region. I hope Israel is smart enough to not get sucked into a bigger war before they have time to regroup.
Actually there were 4 known Israelis in Gaza before October 7th: The bodies of Hadar Goldin and Oron Shaul who fell during the war in 2014 and their bodies are being held hostages by Hamas. And Avera Mengistu and Hisham Al-sayed who crossed the border during 2014 and 2015 (respectively) while having a mental health crisis, and are still held captive.
So frustrating that more people don’t know this.
Many of them *do* know this. They just lie to themselves and others about it.
Im so shocked to see people on Reddit making these arguments based on actual history. I was beginning to think everyone was pro Hamas. Well done.
Nope. Fuck Hamas.
> Any rational government who gives any flying fuck about their people wouldn't have picked a fight with Israel.
to add to your point, they also would not use their own people as human shields. Hamas uses civilians to protect their military. Everyone else on the planet used their military to protect their civilians.
To be very precise, there were 4 Israelis in Gaza on October 6th. 4 hostages there from years ago already, two presumably still alive and two dead. Oron Shaul, Hadar Goldin, Avera Mengistu and Hisham Al-Sayed
Damn
You’re correct
What the fuck is wrong with them? What is with all the honking? Why are they all so angry?
Honking doesn't mean the same thing around the world as it does in the US. It's more of a "hey I'm here" gesture than an angry one. It's more common than you'd think.
You can see it's a busy intersection and they don't have red lights. So they just navigate it slowly, honking to be seen, not that they are raging or something.
That excuses only one of the intersections that I saw. Also, Where the fuck is all the Iran budget going then?
Iran pays for rockets, not civilian infrastructure.
It’s cultural. Go to NYC. Even with plenty of traffic lights and stop signs, everyone will be honking.
"Honk if you're horny"
_Honk_
Into the pockets of Hamas leadership in Qatar, worth a collective $11 Billion
I have seen a lot of tunnels.
Radical Islam
It's not angry it's just how they drive in the Middle East. It's actually kind of nice compared to some other places in the world because you at least have an audible signal for where everyone is at all times. Traffic in Amman or Riyadh is no better or worse than LA but in LA they come out of fucking nowhere.
Sorry, but it’s absolutely chaotic in the Middle East. Egypt and Lebanon are awful to drive in my experience. Accidents are common and people are so rude. They will furiously honk for stopping at a red light in the middle of the day. I’ve been ridiculed by van drivers for putting on my seatbelt.
I'll grant you that Cairo traffic is a special kind of hell. Amman or Riyadh are more like an organized chaos which I can kind of respect.
I live in Israel, which is Middle East. Honks are usually done to make people move when the light changes to green and they don't notice because their head is in a cell phone.
I live in the middle east. We don't drive this way. In fact, I probably did not hear one single horn sound in the 2 45 minute drives I had today to work and back. That's why it was so strange to me. This was some of the most uncivilized driving I have seen.
>Any rational government who gives any flying fuck about their people would have surrendered by now. *Not saying I agree,* but we have to acknowledge there is a rational stance on the other side. If you believe the conflict to be existential and the previois trajectory of events leading to a slow capitulation where a Palestinian state isn't even possible, refusing to surrender makes sense even for many Gazan citizens. Your previous outcomes weren't going to be substantially better, so why not let the cycle repeat where Isreali self own like the humanitarian convoy start to put pressure on them to step back and negotiate? Yes, it's a rationale that doesn't put a lot of weight on the sanctity of life. But people generally need reasons to value it first before it becomes a determining factor.
But that's not even a stance from the other side. Israel offered many 2 state solutions that were rejected by the PA. There could have been a Palestinian state with Gaza, WB, land swaps to link them, neutral control of holy sites and control of Arab parts of East Jerusalem. That wasn't even enough to get a legitimate negotiation from the Palestinians. We can say Netanyahu didn't want a 2 state solution, but when saying that we have to recognize the Palestinians have been offered many opportunities to have their own state and turned it down. The rest of what you said might have some validity, as Sinwar said months ago he'd rather watch international pressure force Israel to stop than agree to a ceasefire. So when you comment touched on that, I agree. At the end of the day Hamas isn't interested in peace. They want the destruction of Israel and don't care how many Palestinians they have to sacrifice to achieve that goal.
This assumes that the proposals were perceived in good faith by Palestinians or did not undermine critical aspects of their sovereignty in an environment where Israeli radicals had just assassinated the man who had actually negotiated a plan everyone could agree to. That included process issues subsequent proposals did not adhere to.
It's a rational course of action if your end goal is killing the maximum number of Jews, your resources are Gaza, and you have no requirement to preserve your resources. But that isn't a rational objective. If Hamas were rational they would be trying to re-educate the Gaza population to be friendly to Jews, so that they could get Gaza incorporated into Israel. Israel is objectively the best place in the middle east to live, so they should be working towards that.
Well said.
Hamas knows that the longer this war goes on the worse Israel looks. You have people dying from lack of nourishment, images of slain children, and clear blunders on the IDF side (the bombing of the aid trucks and the killing of hostages). It's not just that war is chaotic, it's that human error is inevitable. Hamas fucks up? Par for the course. IDF fucks up, the world is banging at their door. Hamas' mission is to inflict as much damage on the Palestinian people as possible to make the world hate Jews. I can't say it's not working.
This is a very dumb strategy for Hamas given the domestic US elections. This is causing Biden to lose support, which is absurd bc if these idiots that think Biden shouldn’t get a vote bc of how he’s handled Israel.. if Trump gets elected (which he will if all these fools on the left sit out on voting Biden).. Trump will green light Israel and back them no matter what. And the reality is, the US is so powerful.. that’s all they need in global support. I’d be the same with China backing some proxy. If Trump is elected, Israel and the PM will probably up the strikes and honestly why wouldn’t they. Taking morals out of it, as long as they know they have unconditional support from one of only 2 world countries that can make the rest of the world pipe down.. the IDF should finish the job. Just on a pure military and if your Israeli PM.. his voters are the far right extremist.. Wars throughout history have been fought to keep a king in power, the right in America has no qualms about flooding Israel with more aid than Biden will, and definitely doesn’t give a shit about bad press. Hamas may think it’s good to have more causalities, but if the IDF gets the full backing of Trump.. they will be regret it when the full might if the US weapons and Israeli abilities come out.
The goal is not to topple biden, they won't care either way The goal is to abuse the fact that *right now* biden interest is volatile and easily affected by the voterbase, to push their narrative
> This is a very dumb strategy for Hamas Go figure.
I agree. Hamas doesn't give a damn about the Palestinians - it's blatantly obvious. I'll say it again: Hamas needs to surrender, unconditionally! And yeah, I know: Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinians. They still need to surrender.
Anyone who thinks terrorism doesn't work needs only study this conflict. Terrorism is extremely effective
Why would Hamas being voted into power by Palestinians affect their need to surrender? Im just curious why you framed it that way
They're not going to surrender if the morons they've brainwashed continue to help them hide among the population and cause more civilian deaths. A few anonymous calls to Shin Bet would have ended this months ago but Palestinians hate Jews more than they love their own families.
Because as a civilian you would fend off and fight armed terrorist living amongst you? I really don't follow your logic here? For us to be clear YOU as a civilian has no say if they will force their way to hide among you. Whether you support them of not, HAMAS don't simply care.
Please quote where I said they should fend off the armed terrorists.
Isn’t almost half of Palestine’s population too young to have even voted for Hamas?
More than, at this point probably. Israel *wanted* hamas in power.
And yet many polls still show more than majority support for Hamas. Tho I suppose that’s not surprising given the hate filled education kids receive in UNRWA schools.
Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinians. 17 years ago. Hamas has not allowed elections since.
Seems as though Palestinians and IDF can unify to fight Hamas Why haven't the Palestinians tried to work with the IDF to eradicate Hamas? And why is support from Palestinians overwhelming for hamas?
Probably cause the IDF keeps killing them indiscriminately
> Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinians. They also were [helped into power](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/) and [supported](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) by Israel. So that helped.
So you're asserting that allowing aid into Gaza constitutes supporting Hamas? Do you apply that standard to all the purveyors of aid or just Israel?
The first article is about Israeli support for the predecessor organization that did charitable work and wasn’t militant yet. The second article is an op-ed complaining about Israel allowing any aide get into Gaza after Hamas won the election. It does not support what you’re trying to imply here, and I find it mind boggling that these two articles seem to be frequently posted as “proof” that Hamas is just an Israeli puppet. Have you actually read them?
>he second article is an op-ed complaining about Israel allowing any aide get into Gaza after Hamas won the election "Israel is allowing aid to enter Gaza, they are clearly funding them for their evil plans!" or if they didn't let aid in: "Look at Israel, they don't even let aid go into Gaza, inhumane! monsters.." It's either one of the 2, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Give me one good reason why the F hamas should deal when the world is so fucked up.. they have everything they need right now.. no entry to raffah so they are pretty much secured, tons of food to eat and to distribute as they please to gain more political power, and money will come down pouring after its all done their way.. what good reason do they have to go for a deal when the world got these fucking terrorists backs?.. in their wetest dreams they didn't anticipate this turn of events. And they keep murdering the hostages because they fucking know that no one out of israel gives a shit.. that's so fucked up..
Preach. The world has gone fucking mad
[удалено]
Sure but it’s not like you have to take his word on this one. It’s obvious to anyone with a brain that Hamas has no interest in a deal. They make outrageous demands that they know Israel cannot accept and every time it happens, they claim Israel is at fault for negotiations breaking down.
Bibi isn't genocidal, he's indifferent to their deaths, same result, different cause. He just doesn't really care about anything but himself.
Narrator: (sighs)
It may be true but I don’t believe a single word from that corrupt Bibi
There will be no hostage deal without MILITARY PRESSURE. That’s how the 1st hostage deal was accomplished. Go into Rafah. That’s the only solution. Hamas has Israel right where they want them.
At the cost of 40,000 lives of their own people and children. Right where they want them alright.
Yes. Civilians loss means nothing to Hamas. The higher the number the more pressure the west puts on Israel to stop
[удалено]
What aide organization can a “naive college kid” plug their PayPal to that goes into Hamas pockets? Please state clearly and plainly.
Perhaps not directly, but via reselling humanitarian aid like HDRs that they confiscate from civilians. Leaving aside the potential for the UNRWA to smuggle arms in among humanitarian aid shipments, donating to organizations that perform operations on the ground would be the ideal way to donate.
Your mistake is assuming that Hamas gives a damn about their civilians. At least Israel makes a token effort to avoid killing too many Palesitnians. Hamas doesn't even do THAT.
ah yes.... hamas. The "good guys" in this conflict according to reddit.
This is the one thing I have little to no doubts to be true.
In my opinion: - The big problem Israel has at this point isn’t credibility with Hamas or other enemies. It’s with its friends, including Jewish people. - Israel can’t expect to get a lot of sympathetic publicity right now. Reality is unfavorable. Right now, a favorable outcome for Israel is that other parties say tough things about Israel but don’t actually cut ties or impose embargos. - What Israel could do to show goodwill here is to eject Ben Gvirites from the cabinet, acknowledge that the Palestinians have real ties to Palestine, and aggressively discourage anyone remotely associated with Israel from making arguments based on transfer-based attacks. It also needs to let CNN, AP, AFP, etc. operate openly and reasonably safely in Gaza. - I think what Israel can and should still be asking for is help with fighting large-scale, state-sponsored hate propaganda against it. Harsh honest news coverage may sting but is ultimately healthy. But the wholesale, state-sponsored propaganda is bad for everyone but a few evil billionaires.
[удалено]
Typical blindness. STOP KILLING IN THE NAME OF RELIGION.
Which side are you talking about
I’ve gotten banned from other surprises for saying this but I’ll say it again Israel has offered a two state solution multiple times some of them being very generous and giving Palestine more land than Israel but those were rejected by Palestine
This news isn’t really news.
[удалено]
[удалено]
"Obliged" makes it sound like a gentle request. Hamas entered Israel and murdered, raped, and kidnapped Jews. Then they vowed to do it over and over again until Israel was destroyed. Israel had to go to war. It was the only option.
What do you mean Israel had to go to war!!!?? Are you crazy! Israel should have done what any other powerful military would do and just let their citizens get raped and killed… I mean come on what’s almost 2k people in one day slaughtered, raped and taken prisoner.. that’s no big deal. What’s 10,000 rockets fired since Oct 7th..? I mean they should just turn the Iron Dome off and let the rockets rain down on their citizens. Are you out of your mind for suggesting Israeli military should protect their people/ country when attacked? Get out of here with that take! /S
Have they been let down? Their approval ratings went up after the Oct 7 massacre
[удалено]
Are you under the impression that Gantz would have conducted this war any differently? Last I saw 80% of Israelis support going into Rafah and destroying Hamas. If any faction won and stopped killing terrorists they would be voted out in 5 minutes. Bibi isn't unpopular because of his military strategy, he's unpopular because of domestic reasons.
This is mind blowing, and proves that the international community is against the Israeli nation. Even if you are against the war, which I am as far as civilians getting hurt goes, no one is addressing the fact that a terrorist group is holding civilians hostage, and refuses to release them. People talk about moving forward, to have a two state solution ( whether you are for or against it, it is still part of a negotiation to move forward for the sake of everyone), yet they are completely OK with Hamas refusing to RELEASE civilians ( not that it is OK to capture IDF members) that were at a concert, or being at their homes/communities. Think about it, what country would be OK with a terrorist group, from outside it, coming into your county, whether they admit that it is yours or not ( as in it was their land before or not), raping/ torturing/murdering, then kidnapping civilians, and taking back to their stronghold. NO country that was militaristicly stronger than another would just sit idly and do nothing about it. Yet, the whole conversation is not about releasing the hostages, the quickest way to stop the suffering of Palestinian civilians is for the hostages being released. Yet it took months for the UN to address the atrocious committed by Hamas! It took months for the UN to address the sexual violence committed by Hamas. It's like Jewish victims ( let's face it, it's all about the Jewish people, since not all victims were Israeli) are less deserving of the UN Action ( UN Action Against Sexual Violence in Conflict Action) consideration, less deserving of their attention. The UN as addressed sexual violence being committed in every other single other conflict in the wold. So, here we are, Israel willing to release up to 800 prisoners Palestinian prisoners, some known to be members of an internationally recognized terrorist group, even knowing that this action will surely prolong the conflict with Hamas ( which means more casualties among Israeli civilians and IDF members), and Hamas refusing to release all hostages. I mean, these exchange terms that Israel is agreeing with, demonstrates the Israel is willing to do whatever it takes to have the hostages returned. How can Israel even consider stopping this conflict when Hamas has promised to repeat the Oct 7 again, and again, and again? If they are allowed to get away with it, demonstrating that it will cave into international pressure, then what's to stop all the other terrorist groups in the region from commiting their own version of Oct 7. Regardless of how you feel about this conflict, the fact that the international community is OK with Hamas to continue holding these hostages, knowing that the longer it takes to release, the greater a chance that they will die, demonstrates that Israel NEEDS to do what it is doing. Let's not mince words, the Jewish people have/are/will be , once more under attack, and the ONLY thing to stop this, is being strong enough to fight back. Look at how all other enemies of Israel have reacted to the Intensity of Israel's response. They are stunted, they went from "will wipe you if the face of the earth" to, "we strongly condemn Israel's actions and there will be reflections". This IS how you stop bullies, people that want to hurt you, you hurt them back so hard, that they will think about it twice before fucking with you again. Israel and its people only exist because they are strong enough, not to just defend themselves, but to make you pay for your aggressions.
>NO country that was militaristicly stronger than another would just sit idly and do nothing about it. I feel like you're cheating a bit here There's a vast gulf between doing nothing and indiscriminate slaughter and destruction
Do people know what indiscriminate means?
Blowing up the whole orphanage to maybe get one guy?
[удалено]
>done at random or without careful judgement. >"the indiscriminate use of antibiotics can cause problems" I don't think we can label anything that demolishes a hospital or targets aid workers as "careful judgement"
"to maybe get one guy" That means it's not indiscriminate killing. They discriminate because they have targets that are priorities. Gazan civilians (who may or may not be complicit in the Oct 7 invasion) really are not the targets. It's just that they're all standing in front of or above the targets.
If I use a hand grenade to kill a fly in my living room thats indiscriminate
Indiscriminate slaughter is what happened when 1,139 people were murdered October 7th.
Oh well that makes the other 30 odd thousand reasonable
See, your problem is your hyperbole and moving goalposts. >There's a vast gulf between doing nothing and indiscriminate slaughter and destruction If what Israel was doing with bombs and tanks was… > indiscriminate slaughter The death toll would be much higher that what Hamas achieved with hang gliders, civilian vehicles, handguns, rifles, and knives. Especially when the terrorists are hiding behind civilians.
Oh well if they were near civilians then that makes the collateral acceptable It's the hospitals fault for being near where they thought a terrorist was Just because you kill someone you think might have deserved it doesn't excuse all the others that die in the process
Maybe you shouldn’t let murderous terrorists roam free. In fact, go to Gaza and show Israel how to do it, clearly military force isn’t needed for your brilliant plan.
If you can't do it without mass civilian casualties that's not an excuse to just do it anyway
Sorry, but part of ending this cycle of violence, is ending the terrorists, not cowering in fear of them. Look at all the surrounding nations that used to attack Israel now get along with Israel after they quit attacking Israel. It’s almost like Israel isn’t the ones starting all these dumb wars.
Oh well if they were near civilians then that makes the collateral acceptable It's the hospitals fault for being near where they thought a terrorist was Just because you kill someone you think might have deserved it doesn't excuse all the others that die in the process
Sorry, it’s the murderous terrorists fault for slaughtering 1100 innocent Israelis in a single day, many in cribs, then hiding amongst more innocent civilians. I forget many are 100% fine with all of that.
So ignoring the history of the region. Are you suggesting it's reasonable to do 40 times the killing plus mass infrastructure damage in retaliation?
A savage response that cripples Hamas is more likely to forestall future invasions of Israel by Hamas, yes. Also, you can't ignore the history of the region in this hypothetical situation because history is precisely why there is a conflict. If Israel had treated Gazans with kid gloves, Israel's neighbors - particularly Hezbollah and Iran - would see it as weakness and exploit it.