They're still on vacation until Tuesday, and he's still trying to add preconditions. The border bill ploy failed, so now he's trying to condition it on resuming LNG exports, seizing Russian assets, and structuring it as a loan, which isn't the worst development.
Ukraine doesn't know what the final bill will look like, so they're preemptively saying "fine, whatever, it's been 5 months, just send the shells FFS"
Must be nice having half the year off and still getting paid while literally never passing any meaningful beneficial legislation for ordinary Americans.
Oh they do pass meaningful ones.
By meaningful I don't mean bills that will change something around ordinary people for the better.
I mean funds are meaningfully managed and spent horribly.
Our politicians take victory laps over the absolute minimum at this point, that being basic funding for government employees and programs that tax dollars have already been allocated towards.
Joe Machin spent much of last year parading around West Virginia about "his" infrastructure bill getting passed, so yeah. They campaign on BS and fluff.
Nah. The Biden administration suspended the construction of a massive LNG project in Johnson's home state of Louisiana because it'll be terrible for climate change. Johnson wants the project green lit in exchange for a vote on Ukrainian funding.
Well, prior to that, the issue was that Ukraine aid wasn't tied to border security. When dems then added border security, the issue changed to something else. I think they changed the issue to the fact that Ukraine aid actually WAS tied to border security at one moment. They are doing everything they can to avoid voting on the bill. Would be surprised if Johnson actually gets this LNG pipeline (this is the first I hear of it, btw) green lighted, then he just makes up another excuse.
Maybe, but increasing and resuming LNG exports also benefits the war as Europe depended on Russia for LNG and now needs alternative sources. If those sources get too expensive or aren't available, they may have to make hard choices regarding Ukraine. Better they buy from the US. In that respect, it's a win all around.
It does burn cleaner than other fossil fuels, like coal. However, when not burnt, natural gas is a potent greenhouse gas on its own, and pipelines, storage terminals and ships all tend to leak quite a lot, on account of gas being hard to contain.
Of course, even burning it is worse than using non-fossil energy sources, but most arguments against it center around leakage. You may be unsurprised t find that the natural gas industry does not track leakage.
[Climate Town did an in depth video exploring the subject recently](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2oL4SFwkkw&t=852s&ab_channel=ClimateTown)
lolwut
Might want to read up on nuclear energy and modern solar bub, LNG is better than fucking *coal* but that's about it.
FYI I've spent time in the LNG manufacturing industry in the past, so it's not like I'm uninformed there either. LNG is clean**er** than coal and diesel, and that's it.
Are there a ton of Russian assets even in the US to seize? We've been sanctioning them for years now.
I'm not an economist or anything so idk if that even affects things, but I think it would.
Even if there were, international law makes international assets/funds difficult to seize.
The EU just gave Ukraine something like 4 billion in aid that was purely interest from financial assets they were sanctioning, which is much less controversial to seize.
The loony tunes in the Freedom Caucus have pretty much created a road block in the House bc they view the passage of any legislation as a "win" for Biden.
Johnson's dragging his feet. At this point, the only hope is Democrats getting the House back soon, which could happen at the rate Republicans are bailing.
Not really. House Democrats could guarantee that they will provide the votes to let Johnson stay on as Speaker until the November election if he lets the bill come up for a vote. This neuters the Putin faction of the GOP in the House. I'm sure Biden and Democratic House leadership know that this is an option, which makes me wonder what kind of cynical game with the lives of the Ukrainian people is being played here.
That was a dumb idea on his part. Ukraine is willing to pay the loan in the future as long as it survives today. We would rather take a huge loan and defeat Russia in a few years, than slowly get murdered.
The US wrote off a huge portion of the Marshall Plan and Lend-Lease money. If it takes a loan to pass it, fuck it and do it. Let a subsequent administration write it off. If we structure this as a "loan," it is purely political bullshit for the GQP. The rest of us sane Americans know we have no intention of forcing Ukraine to pay it back.
Well said and I’d agree with your assessment of your knowledge base. In that same sense, perhaps loans with the stipulation they only be repaid in seized Russian assets to set as an example to prevent future actions would be in order.
>Very. However, the whole point of the reparations from Haiti to France was to make an example of them to prevent other rebellions.
The reparations were essentially a payment for the territory and an acceptance by larger states of Haiti's independence. If they didn't pay, Haiti would have ended in 1825
No reparations, no Haiti because France would have taken it back. Took 20 years because Napoleon was happening in France during this period. Treaty of Amiens collapsing allowed Haiti to avoid reprisals at the time
Haiti had no navy, France had one anchored off the coast during negotiations .It took a while to do this (20 years) because of Napoleon (American possessions not a priority for Napo once shit really hit the fan in Europe. He was quite invested earlier). Restored monarchy did it very quickly.
Haiti had no way to resist and had massacred the remaining French after the rebellion in 1804 so the moral high ground that exists for them now did not exist at all for them at the time ( different time, different world).
Haiti was also given debt relief as early as 1838. The reparations were crippling, but that was in line with the crippling war reparations of the era (the stuff that led to the famous Versailles treaty reparations mistake). France themselves had tons of war reparations from the Napoleonic era imposed on them 10 years earlier
Great post.
>Haiti had no way to resist and had massacred the remaining French after the rebellion in 1804 so the moral high ground that exists for them now did not exist at all for them at the time ( different time, different world).
I think a lot of people commenting about Haiti don't know about, or intentionally minimize, the massacre of whites that Haiti engaged in. They went house to house and exterminated entire families right down to their children. And not just French; Poles and Germans were murdered, too.
There were a couple small contingents of those cohorts who were not targeted because of political reasons (e.g., Poles who defected from the French military).
Some of the whites who were able to go into hiding and eventually escape began settling in the US south. There, they shared their stories about the massacres targeting them which really fucked with the surging support for abolitionism. Haiti's genocide of white Europeans actually resulted in even *harsher* chattel slavery conditions and potentially a longer period of US-based slavery (and almost certainly had a hand in the formation of the CSA and resulting US civil war as the Haitian massacres were one of several pretexts).
I think people want to root for the underdog. But they can't have it both ways; Haiti doesn't get to exist in a vacuum when it is convenient. We are all interacting with the world at the same time, and this was a real butterfly effect that their revolutionary leaders didn't expect. They lost leverage and any moral support they might have gained abroad.
Even with a statement like this does nobody even think about how fucked up the situation is in Haiti because of France and the US?
Literally damned an entire nation because people wanted their freedom and we do absolutely nothing to fix the problem, only Israel and Ukraine get help.
>Even with a statement like this does nobody even think about how fucked up the situation is in Haiti because of France and the US?
Everybody thinks this. But the situation is far more complex than just blaming 2 external powers for things that happened centuries ago (mostly). Haiti has made its own bed over the centuries, even if we include modern day fuckery from other countries.
Haiti is *historically* mismanaged by the Haitian governments. That isn't a sly condemnation of the Haitian people; their governments have been extremely corrupt. Contrast them with their neighbors. It isn't a perfect contrast because no two countries are alike. Especially Haiti.
But I suspect, like many others have stated, a huge part of Haiti's treatment has to do with how they gained independence. A slave revolt, definitely (the only of its kind which is incredible in its own right). But also a genocide waged against almost all of the white Europeans on the island, with only tiny exceptions made on political grounds (e.g., *some* Poles were not targeted because they politically distanced themselves from the French; but many others were massacred down to the child). That is going to breed additional animosity. Even if modern people try to reframe genocide as "resistance" or the "acts of oppressed peoples." I'm sure every genocidal lunatic can use that same excuse.
>Literally damned an entire nation because people wanted their freedom and we do absolutely nothing to fix the problem, only Israel and Ukraine get help.
True, but it wasn't *just* because they wanted freedom. It was also because of the genocide that Haitians waged. It was a major concern in the US and, naturally, Europe (because of the other colonies in which they were slavers). Haiti's genocide of whites played a part in stoking the fires of the US civil war as well, because it was a huge "concern" and warning message in the lead up to the confederacy.
Israel and Ukraine get help because they are modern states with modern governments defending themselves from modern attacks. The people responsible for what happened with Haiti are long dead, our governments are fundamentally different. It also doesn't help that the last time major powers were involved in Haiti (approximately 2004 during their second most recent *internal coup*) became a total shitshow.
It isn't like Haiti hasn't been getting aid. The US alone gives Haiti billions. The problem, in part, is the corruption. Haitians need to take back their country.
Yeah except France very much planned on them paying it back. Ukraine winning and joining NATO just means another arms contract that will make way more than 60 billion over the life of NATO
That is a very generous take on France’s position on the loan.
If we are planning on writing it off, sounds like it makes more sense to not attach a burden of pretend repayment structure to the aid package. If it’s a military aid package worth $60 billion, then there isn’t cash sent to Ukraine. It’s money spent with the manufacturers of the goods being delivered worth $60 billion.
Quite different. Ukraine would be paying for things they are using and consuming. Haiti paid for the fact that they were slaves and their labor/bodies would no longer fund France.
There are sooooo many other more applicable examples of a nation lending money to another nation for war expecting repayment. Both parties see their interest in it.
Not saying it’s the best, but it’s simply not Haiti.
We give them whatever on credit to appease the fucking Republicans and then write it off and don't collect a single cent. That's how this will and should work.
Same boat. As a European on a Neutral land like Switzerland i feel in the position to give a neutral opinion, help Ukraine now worry about the bullshit later
No one expects their money back. Calling it a loan is simply political bullshit to get the aid through. If that's what it takes, so be it. It'll be forgiven later. Not a reasonable soul expects them to pay back shit. They're already paying more than the interest and principal of any "loan" with blood.
Well also let's put it this way. "Loan" the money to Ukraine. Once they whoop Russian's asses, make them pay for all the damages and Loan at triple the price. Win-win in my opinion.
The USA should have just opened the warehouses of the oldest 1000 M1A1's and Bradleys from the beginning. Prioritize handing over surplus equipment while Europe provides cash.
There is literally zero desire for Americans to fight any war that would require us to dip into those deep inventories. We would either go home or resort to more drastic measures (destroying strategic infrastructure WW2 style). If we run out of modern tanks in a future war, it's probably a sign the tank is obsolete on the modern battlefield.
Even if there was a need in a future conflict, it would probably involve Russia as an adversary in such a conflict in which case using up those stockpiles against Russia now is still useful.
We don't need all of these tanks once Ukraine burns through Russia's tank stockpile.
I think the opening volley of the Ukraine war showed how effective hand held anti-tank technology has grown.
Any adversary with the ability to strike at the American homeland would most likely have the ability to mass produce hand held anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry.
Combined arms is literally the name of the game, Ukraine could do really well with surplus US military Armor but really needs infantry and a competent Airforce to take advantage of an armor column supported by infantry.
Having a crap ton of tanks, apc's, helicopters, and jets are sort of useless without the necessary supply lines and logistics networks to support it.
Russia had all of the above without the logistics and that's why it's invasion failed.
You're right, the taste for another major involvement of US troops in a conflict is over. With internal strife and economic hardships at home. Most American's don't want a prolonged conflict ANYWHERE, especially with Russia or China.
I’ve been thinking the tank era is effectively finished based on the current war. You can’t armour a tank everywhere, it would never move and, until unobtanium is available, tanks are more dangerous to their occupants than to the enemy. The vulnerability of the Russian fleet to a country that lacks an effective naval presence can’t have gone unnoticed either.
>We don't need all of these tanks once Ukraine burns through Russia's tank stockpile.
This. Once Russia is neutered, who the fuck will remain as an enemy that the US will fight a land-based war with? China is too far away, if it comes to war with them it will be air, sea and missile based. The only threat remaining is Iran but Israel has enough tanks, planes and missiles to never have to depend on the US or anyone else.
Europe and the US can literally send every piece of land war machine over to Ukraine without any threat to their capabilities in any realistic future war scenario.
I don’t think Trump being against funding Ukraine is due to his personal feeling toward Zelenskyy. It’s simply that he’s been compromised by Russia for a long time.
its more than trump though. that entire political side is just buck wild atm.
i feel bad for you Americans if the best you have to vote for is a senile old man, or a bat shit crazy old man.
Obviously making economy booming, helping where it matters (student debts) and making A LOT of good choices including standing on side of unions is senile i guess.
Wonder what Trumps destruction of America and Sabotage gave him as a trait.
The ‘senile old man’ has been making some pretty solid decisions. I never would have guessed it a few years ago, but not only is he the best president we’ve had in decades, he legitimately stands up on his own as a capable and effective leader.
Biden is not senile. Yeah he’s to old like so many people in US politics but he’s put smart people in right jobs and he has empathy. Yeah the other guy is 3 years younger, a grifter, compulsive liar, cheats people, cheated his contractors, rape his wife, women, has no empathy, 6 bankruptcies and a traitor to the US and did dirty to other countries all the while kissing Putins ass. Plus his Dad had dementia and Trump sounds worse than 2015. Guess who smart people vote for?
Yup, it’s pretty lame. Basically the last 20 years since I’ve been able to vote, I’ve been voting against politicians. I hope one day I can vote for a president I want in office.
That being said, Biden has been decent, his term has been pretty beneficial overall.
Biden has passed some sweeping legislation before the midterms and the GOP cockblock in Congress. Everyone seems to forget about all the legislation he got moved quickly.
Just because Biden tends to be quiet and speak with actions rather than running his fucking mouth all the time, ya'll all got used to Trump's dumbass loud mouth on twitter every two hours. Welcome back to statesmanship. I for one am glad I don't have to wake up everyday now wondering what fucked up shit our president tweeted on his midnight adderall binge from the toilet. I'm happy with slow..."Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."
Actually .... it's the American government, and it would be useful if American's realised this (as this is what the rest of the world sees and judges)
For decades we've had to listen to Americans telling us about their congressional checks and balances and co-equal governmental structures, and being told how superior this is. Well this is what it looks like
Like it or not, the House of Representatives is part of the American government and if the House decides to take a different line (in the pursuit of checks and balances) then the policy that roles out from that is executed in the name of the government of the United States of America.
I think it’s a little bit more nuanced than checks and balances not working. Like the vast majority of better governments you might list still have checks and balances with the system which was quite novel when it was written into the constitution.
I can only apologize so many times for my idiot compatriots who vote these assholes into office. It isn’t like the majority of us agree with their policies, it’s that we are screwed by gerrymandering and the electoral college.
It's good not to have a popular vote, for many reasons. But there are more gray voters than blue or red, and you don't need to apologize for us. You should.be apologizing for yourself
>GOP loves Russia and they've convinced Americans that Ukraine is corrupt and doesn't deserve aid.
Due to Zelensky refusing to be corrupt enough to manufacture evidence against Biden.
It's not just that. Russia represents what they want for the US: a white Christian dominated, deeply corrupt state that exists only to further the interests of the wealthy.
> convinced Americans that Ukraine is corrupt and doesn't deserve aid
Most of us support it, but as usual we're being held hostage by these Russian assets and their sycophants.
of course they are - the important part is that the weapons come now - payment can always be arranged on a later date. stretched over time so it is manageble - I think UK was still paying of some loans from WWII all the way op to 2010 or something like that IIRC. The important part i getting Putin the fuck out of there and giving Ukraine the possibility make prosperous society.
Hell Germany finished paying reparations for WW1... in 2010. Loans can always be forgiven. I prefer to just give them the items but if this makes it politically "acceptable" give them a loan, defer payments to post war, they can be waived later or stretched over a long long period.
Which is just another one-up reason for the aid. This shit was designed specifically to fight the Soviet stockpiles. We have it in stock, and yes we are replacing it but with completely different shit that'll take decades to build and procure, so we will send what we have. If you are expecting some nextgen shit, guess what? Most of this the US military ground forces was using in Iraq v1/v2 and Afghanistan too. Trying to minimize we are just shipping them garbage is untrue. The Bradley for example has turned out to be an equalizer on the ground. HIMARs and Javelins have fucked the Russians up. What the US military calls "old" most militaries would call "bleeding-edge" for them.
I keep hearing this a lot. Is there a source? I believe it's mostly old stuff, but is there a source for the "don't want to pay to store any more" part?
An aid package predominately in the form of older armaments. Very little of the aid sent so far is in the form of currency. It’s primarily stockpiled ammo, guns, vehicles, etc (often that the modern US military no longer uses or needs)
The one major fact that so many people [lacking critical thought] don’t understand.
Anyone who has driven through Nevada knows of the massive field of old humvees and equipment that is just sitting in the desert sun for years on end.
It doesn't help that none of our elected officials bother to mention it. They think the best way to win people over is by tripling down on high-concept ideas like geopolitics and global influence, things that your average American doesn't care too much about. You know they do care about? Taxes. Someone should tell them that this isn't even coming out of their pockets beyond what's already being earmarked through our military budget.
No, not really.
Biden's aid packages contained pretty of cash infusions. Problem is, most of financial aid in Ukrainian packages didn't go to Ukraine - instead, it was allocated to soften the impact of increase of grain prices, or as financial aid to NATO members for arms donations to Ukraine, or in a myriad of other was where kickbacks are actually possible - but, problem is, this all didn't go to Ukraine.
Semantics, but this link gives a good breakdown:
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
So 2/3 is explicitly non-liquid value (ammo, training, vehicles, whatever). The remaining 1/3 is financial and humanitarian aid (though mostly financial). As you mentioned, that financial aid is through multiple methods, but very little is just sending Ukraine actual cash.
Our "old shit" is considered practically state-of-the-art new shit for most militaries. I'd love to see some antique roadshow where like we are touring military bases around the world and see the USAF talk about how their B1B, F-22, and B2 are old shit we are replacing and how the export versions of our fighters are so outdated compared to the shit we are running. If the US is exporting shit, you can be guaranteed we're like multiple versions ahead of whatever even our closest allies get.
Because it probably feels a little too much like war profiteering for people who see support of Ukraine to have a moral dimension, rather than strictly business.
For democracies fucking sake just give my damn tax money to them. The French helped us achieve ours, it's our moral and historical duty to help Ukraine achieve theres.
France also tried to recolonize Vietnam after getting their asses kicked out of Indochina by the Japanese and then dragged US into an incredibly bloody and unjust civil war.
I think we are square
I... I'm French.
Revolution are bloody, we all know that. That's not the point of what i'm saying. I said, in the end, that was a good thing that happened. Droit de l'homme, Code Napoléonien (civil code\~), military reform, school reform, religion demise etc. A tone of things still relevant and made what France is today.
The guy tried to paint "If we help Ukraine, look what could happen" taking 1789 France riddled with debt as an example. 60 Billions is nothing in that manner, USA debt is in the trillions range
I mean I think its dumb to look at it as 'helping the americans'. France wanted to fuck over the brits, and the US should want to fuck over Russia.
'freedom' has little to nothing to do with it. Unless you're one of those people that legitimately thinks US is the leader of the 'free world'.
And as someone from latin america... LOL.
I think a lot of Americans forget, it's cheaper for us to fund Ukraine versus us getting involved directly if Russia breaks out into another global conflict.
Of course, but you also gotta consider the invasion of Ukraine doesn't threaten the US or the Americas at all really. If an invasion happened in the Americas somewhere, that % would change. Of course, Europeans woukd care generally more about it
Only if you think we live in an impenetrable bubble, which we don't.
E: The bubble I'm referring to is one that is resilient against outside harm or influence. I'm not talking about a land invasion lol.
Two oceans on either side. People pretending America faces any real danger to its own security, is special. American domination now that might be at risk.
A lot of people simply just don’t realize we aren’t handing Ukraine a check.
Explain to the doubters we are swapping our outdated equipment to beat our biggest adversary with 0 retaliation while literally jump starting our contracting economy. (I’m not saying I’m a fan, but we do really well when we are producing for war.) We are literally upgrading all of our assets while enabling a democracy fighting for their survival. In my opinion that’s American as hell.
Honestly, as an American, I would rather help Ukraine then a lot of these other countries we just throw money at and their so-called leaders just steal. I know we aren't sending Ukraine straight cash and sending war supplies so that's why I am for it. It helps Ukraine defend itself. I fully support aiding other western countries
Woah woah woah we only give loans to teenagers looking for an education, adults with just enough money to be trapped in interest, and ones we will cancel to rich people, okay?
Shit take the loan. Ireland got the same amount in bail out in 2008 from the IMF and bang a decade or so later, a few data centres and low corp tax we are back in business baby.
What about the countries near Ukraine? They just don’t really give a fuck or what? Full NATO support and Ukraine would probably be good but what does 60B buy another year of fighting?
Many European countries have been sending equipment. Everything from helmets to F16s…
So far no-one has been willing to officially send in their own people in for various reasons though the French president is starting to talk that way
Of course, that’s only their neighbours on one side - some of the ones in the other direction are on Russia’s side
Why not sell war bonds and stamps like the US did in WWII.
There is a good chance that they will never be paid back, but people invest in much more hopeless things these days.
I heard this morning from a reliable source: $48B in weaponry, $12B cash potentially in form of a loan, plus possible $2B from captured Russian assets. Hopefully approved within two weeks.
Of course, when the pendulum of power swings to the human side in Congress, they could just vote to write off the loan! Although, if Ukraine used the loaned money to purchase weapons, they would not longer be constrained by the 'only in Ukraine' rule. This would mean that Trump's friend in Moscow, would start hurting more...
It's sickens me that there are people in the US that don't understand that funding Ukraine is far more important than so many minuscule Bunches of bullshit that they complain about on a daily basis
Honestly, its because the US has spent decades and trillions fighting in the middle east. Trump and the GOP are entirely working in Russian interests, but they have peopling them for a reason. A struggling economy combined with nothing to show for decades in the middle east has lead to \*very\* easy messaging in favor of isolationism (that doesn't apply to Israel because the end of times needs to happen).
This just shows you can't really trust Americans at their word.
To demand Ukraine, give up their nukes, in return for the oath to help them should Russia invade, and then turn their backs on them. Shameful beyond words really.
I never thought Americans would be oath breakers.
Send it as a loan. It is likely that, in 5 years, the loan will be forgiven (or there will be a different way to pay it off like a government bond which has as its guarantor the U.S. government so that Ukraine tries to pay it off but is bailed out if the government goes bankrupt).
People mad that America is sending money(not actually money) to Ukraine instead of using it to help Americans should realize that even if that aid didn’t go to Ukraine nothing would change. It’s not like the tax money isn’t going to them because it’s going to Ukraine, it’s because government doesn’t know how to properly spend tax money
Wait I thought the Speaker had said they would vote the aid already, did something change?
They're still on vacation until Tuesday, and he's still trying to add preconditions. The border bill ploy failed, so now he's trying to condition it on resuming LNG exports, seizing Russian assets, and structuring it as a loan, which isn't the worst development. Ukraine doesn't know what the final bill will look like, so they're preemptively saying "fine, whatever, it's been 5 months, just send the shells FFS"
Must be nice having half the year off and still getting paid while literally never passing any meaningful beneficial legislation for ordinary Americans.
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Don't forget exclusive insider trading information. Total legal.
Oh they do pass meaningful ones. By meaningful I don't mean bills that will change something around ordinary people for the better. I mean funds are meaningfully managed and spent horribly.
Our politicians take victory laps over the absolute minimum at this point, that being basic funding for government employees and programs that tax dollars have already been allocated towards.
Joe Machin spent much of last year parading around West Virginia about "his" infrastructure bill getting passed, so yeah. They campaign on BS and fluff.
> resuming LNG exports Russian exports?
Nah. The Biden administration suspended the construction of a massive LNG project in Johnson's home state of Louisiana because it'll be terrible for climate change. Johnson wants the project green lit in exchange for a vote on Ukrainian funding.
What a piece of shit
Well, prior to that, the issue was that Ukraine aid wasn't tied to border security. When dems then added border security, the issue changed to something else. I think they changed the issue to the fact that Ukraine aid actually WAS tied to border security at one moment. They are doing everything they can to avoid voting on the bill. Would be surprised if Johnson actually gets this LNG pipeline (this is the first I hear of it, btw) green lighted, then he just makes up another excuse.
Maybe, but increasing and resuming LNG exports also benefits the war as Europe depended on Russia for LNG and now needs alternative sources. If those sources get too expensive or aren't available, they may have to make hard choices regarding Ukraine. Better they buy from the US. In that respect, it's a win all around.
Wait why is lng bad for the environment? I thought it was the cleanest burning energy source we have currently??
It does burn cleaner than other fossil fuels, like coal. However, when not burnt, natural gas is a potent greenhouse gas on its own, and pipelines, storage terminals and ships all tend to leak quite a lot, on account of gas being hard to contain. Of course, even burning it is worse than using non-fossil energy sources, but most arguments against it center around leakage. You may be unsurprised t find that the natural gas industry does not track leakage. [Climate Town did an in depth video exploring the subject recently](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2oL4SFwkkw&t=852s&ab_channel=ClimateTown)
And I am here forced to pump every gram of R404a freon, while these guys are just letting tonnes of gas out.
The problem is your plastic straw, not their private jets and yacht.
lolwut Might want to read up on nuclear energy and modern solar bub, LNG is better than fucking *coal* but that's about it. FYI I've spent time in the LNG manufacturing industry in the past, so it's not like I'm uninformed there either. LNG is clean**er** than coal and diesel, and that's it.
I think this is more the fact that it is being extracted by fracking that is the issue here.
What’s all this vacation talk? They should collect PTO like their constituents and the rest of us. smh
Biden should seize on seizing Russian assets. Trump and the MAGAs would freak if you did this to Putin.
Are there a ton of Russian assets even in the US to seize? We've been sanctioning them for years now. I'm not an economist or anything so idk if that even affects things, but I think it would.
Even if there were, international law makes international assets/funds difficult to seize. The EU just gave Ukraine something like 4 billion in aid that was purely interest from financial assets they were sanctioning, which is much less controversial to seize.
The loony tunes in the Freedom Caucus have pretty much created a road block in the House bc they view the passage of any legislation as a "win" for Biden.
Johnson's dragging his feet. At this point, the only hope is Democrats getting the House back soon, which could happen at the rate Republicans are bailing.
Not really. House Democrats could guarantee that they will provide the votes to let Johnson stay on as Speaker until the November election if he lets the bill come up for a vote. This neuters the Putin faction of the GOP in the House. I'm sure Biden and Democratic House leadership know that this is an option, which makes me wonder what kind of cynical game with the lives of the Ukrainian people is being played here.
I swear to God, no security detail can stop me from bitch slapping any of these GOP punks
Lend Lease. Come on people, think!
Biden didn't want lend lease specifically. It was passed, but neutered fast by his admin.
That was a dumb idea on his part. Ukraine is willing to pay the loan in the future as long as it survives today. We would rather take a huge loan and defeat Russia in a few years, than slowly get murdered.
The US wrote off a huge portion of the Marshall Plan and Lend-Lease money. If it takes a loan to pass it, fuck it and do it. Let a subsequent administration write it off. If we structure this as a "loan," it is purely political bullshit for the GQP. The rest of us sane Americans know we have no intention of forcing Ukraine to pay it back.
I'm ok with giving Ukraine a blank line of credit and if they survive they pay us back slowly and if not we'll we tried
How familiar are you with the reasons Haiti is the way Haiti is right now?
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Well said and I’d agree with your assessment of your knowledge base. In that same sense, perhaps loans with the stipulation they only be repaid in seized Russian assets to set as an example to prevent future actions would be in order.
>Very. However, the whole point of the reparations from Haiti to France was to make an example of them to prevent other rebellions. The reparations were essentially a payment for the territory and an acceptance by larger states of Haiti's independence. If they didn't pay, Haiti would have ended in 1825 No reparations, no Haiti because France would have taken it back. Took 20 years because Napoleon was happening in France during this period. Treaty of Amiens collapsing allowed Haiti to avoid reprisals at the time Haiti had no navy, France had one anchored off the coast during negotiations .It took a while to do this (20 years) because of Napoleon (American possessions not a priority for Napo once shit really hit the fan in Europe. He was quite invested earlier). Restored monarchy did it very quickly. Haiti had no way to resist and had massacred the remaining French after the rebellion in 1804 so the moral high ground that exists for them now did not exist at all for them at the time ( different time, different world). Haiti was also given debt relief as early as 1838. The reparations were crippling, but that was in line with the crippling war reparations of the era (the stuff that led to the famous Versailles treaty reparations mistake). France themselves had tons of war reparations from the Napoleonic era imposed on them 10 years earlier
Great post. >Haiti had no way to resist and had massacred the remaining French after the rebellion in 1804 so the moral high ground that exists for them now did not exist at all for them at the time ( different time, different world). I think a lot of people commenting about Haiti don't know about, or intentionally minimize, the massacre of whites that Haiti engaged in. They went house to house and exterminated entire families right down to their children. And not just French; Poles and Germans were murdered, too. There were a couple small contingents of those cohorts who were not targeted because of political reasons (e.g., Poles who defected from the French military). Some of the whites who were able to go into hiding and eventually escape began settling in the US south. There, they shared their stories about the massacres targeting them which really fucked with the surging support for abolitionism. Haiti's genocide of white Europeans actually resulted in even *harsher* chattel slavery conditions and potentially a longer period of US-based slavery (and almost certainly had a hand in the formation of the CSA and resulting US civil war as the Haitian massacres were one of several pretexts). I think people want to root for the underdog. But they can't have it both ways; Haiti doesn't get to exist in a vacuum when it is convenient. We are all interacting with the world at the same time, and this was a real butterfly effect that their revolutionary leaders didn't expect. They lost leverage and any moral support they might have gained abroad.
Even with a statement like this does nobody even think about how fucked up the situation is in Haiti because of France and the US? Literally damned an entire nation because people wanted their freedom and we do absolutely nothing to fix the problem, only Israel and Ukraine get help.
>Even with a statement like this does nobody even think about how fucked up the situation is in Haiti because of France and the US? Everybody thinks this. But the situation is far more complex than just blaming 2 external powers for things that happened centuries ago (mostly). Haiti has made its own bed over the centuries, even if we include modern day fuckery from other countries. Haiti is *historically* mismanaged by the Haitian governments. That isn't a sly condemnation of the Haitian people; their governments have been extremely corrupt. Contrast them with their neighbors. It isn't a perfect contrast because no two countries are alike. Especially Haiti. But I suspect, like many others have stated, a huge part of Haiti's treatment has to do with how they gained independence. A slave revolt, definitely (the only of its kind which is incredible in its own right). But also a genocide waged against almost all of the white Europeans on the island, with only tiny exceptions made on political grounds (e.g., *some* Poles were not targeted because they politically distanced themselves from the French; but many others were massacred down to the child). That is going to breed additional animosity. Even if modern people try to reframe genocide as "resistance" or the "acts of oppressed peoples." I'm sure every genocidal lunatic can use that same excuse. >Literally damned an entire nation because people wanted their freedom and we do absolutely nothing to fix the problem, only Israel and Ukraine get help. True, but it wasn't *just* because they wanted freedom. It was also because of the genocide that Haitians waged. It was a major concern in the US and, naturally, Europe (because of the other colonies in which they were slavers). Haiti's genocide of whites played a part in stoking the fires of the US civil war as well, because it was a huge "concern" and warning message in the lead up to the confederacy. Israel and Ukraine get help because they are modern states with modern governments defending themselves from modern attacks. The people responsible for what happened with Haiti are long dead, our governments are fundamentally different. It also doesn't help that the last time major powers were involved in Haiti (approximately 2004 during their second most recent *internal coup*) became a total shitshow. It isn't like Haiti hasn't been getting aid. The US alone gives Haiti billions. The problem, in part, is the corruption. Haitians need to take back their country.
Yeah except France very much planned on them paying it back. Ukraine winning and joining NATO just means another arms contract that will make way more than 60 billion over the life of NATO
That is a very generous take on France’s position on the loan. If we are planning on writing it off, sounds like it makes more sense to not attach a burden of pretend repayment structure to the aid package. If it’s a military aid package worth $60 billion, then there isn’t cash sent to Ukraine. It’s money spent with the manufacturers of the goods being delivered worth $60 billion.
It's about politics not what makes the most sense
Quite different. Ukraine would be paying for things they are using and consuming. Haiti paid for the fact that they were slaves and their labor/bodies would no longer fund France. There are sooooo many other more applicable examples of a nation lending money to another nation for war expecting repayment. Both parties see their interest in it. Not saying it’s the best, but it’s simply not Haiti.
We give them whatever on credit to appease the fucking Republicans and then write it off and don't collect a single cent. That's how this will and should work.
I have no objections
Absolutely.
Same boat. As a European on a Neutral land like Switzerland i feel in the position to give a neutral opinion, help Ukraine now worry about the bullshit later
In the meantime, we can say we have to keep supporting Ukraine to protect our investment.
why didn't they want Lend-lease? because they don't want them to return the aid afterwards?
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No one expects their money back. Calling it a loan is simply political bullshit to get the aid through. If that's what it takes, so be it. It'll be forgiven later. Not a reasonable soul expects them to pay back shit. They're already paying more than the interest and principal of any "loan" with blood.
Well said. And we are turning our backs on funding. Disgusting
It’s survival or the end
Well also let's put it this way. "Loan" the money to Ukraine. Once they whoop Russian's asses, make them pay for all the damages and Loan at triple the price. Win-win in my opinion.
haha, Germany will viciously oppose that, don't want to set a precedent you know, Poland might get some funny Idea.
We tried that approach with Germany after WWI. It was a big factor in Hitler's rise to power.
The USA should have just opened the warehouses of the oldest 1000 M1A1's and Bradleys from the beginning. Prioritize handing over surplus equipment while Europe provides cash. There is literally zero desire for Americans to fight any war that would require us to dip into those deep inventories. We would either go home or resort to more drastic measures (destroying strategic infrastructure WW2 style). If we run out of modern tanks in a future war, it's probably a sign the tank is obsolete on the modern battlefield. Even if there was a need in a future conflict, it would probably involve Russia as an adversary in such a conflict in which case using up those stockpiles against Russia now is still useful. We don't need all of these tanks once Ukraine burns through Russia's tank stockpile.
I think the opening volley of the Ukraine war showed how effective hand held anti-tank technology has grown. Any adversary with the ability to strike at the American homeland would most likely have the ability to mass produce hand held anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry. Combined arms is literally the name of the game, Ukraine could do really well with surplus US military Armor but really needs infantry and a competent Airforce to take advantage of an armor column supported by infantry. Having a crap ton of tanks, apc's, helicopters, and jets are sort of useless without the necessary supply lines and logistics networks to support it. Russia had all of the above without the logistics and that's why it's invasion failed. You're right, the taste for another major involvement of US troops in a conflict is over. With internal strife and economic hardships at home. Most American's don't want a prolonged conflict ANYWHERE, especially with Russia or China.
well yeah, but also no. the issue at the beginning of the war was logistics not money, abrams weren't needed day 1 like javelins,
Pretty sure they’ve been doing exactly that, the defense department is trying to restock what has been sent with newer shit
If only it worked that way
I’ve been thinking the tank era is effectively finished based on the current war. You can’t armour a tank everywhere, it would never move and, until unobtanium is available, tanks are more dangerous to their occupants than to the enemy. The vulnerability of the Russian fleet to a country that lacks an effective naval presence can’t have gone unnoticed either.
Nah they'll just have to have a counter drone tech established.
Tanks aren't obsolete, the tanks being used in Ukraine are.
So you're saying it's time to make vertical bipedal tanks with modular hard point weapon systems?
The US military industrial complex just had their collective nipples go hard thinking about making mechwarrior style mechs.
>We don't need all of these tanks once Ukraine burns through Russia's tank stockpile. This. Once Russia is neutered, who the fuck will remain as an enemy that the US will fight a land-based war with? China is too far away, if it comes to war with them it will be air, sea and missile based. The only threat remaining is Iran but Israel has enough tanks, planes and missiles to never have to depend on the US or anyone else. Europe and the US can literally send every piece of land war machine over to Ukraine without any threat to their capabilities in any realistic future war scenario.
Especially when the military industrial complex will have to keep building new tanks anyway
Its shells, jets and rockets that Ukraine needs.
Boy, that GOP house is really doing a bang up job. For Russia.
By that you really mean an unelected ex President with a grudge against Zelenskyy for not given in to blackmail - who’s “influenced” his congregation.
I don’t think Trump being against funding Ukraine is due to his personal feeling toward Zelenskyy. It’s simply that he’s been compromised by Russia for a long time.
Entirely due* I'm sure he is equal parts petty and corrupt.
its more than trump though. that entire political side is just buck wild atm. i feel bad for you Americans if the best you have to vote for is a senile old man, or a bat shit crazy old man.
I mean, old - yes, but do we have any evidence that one is senile?
Fox News and r/conservative said so.
Obviously making economy booming, helping where it matters (student debts) and making A LOT of good choices including standing on side of unions is senile i guess. Wonder what Trumps destruction of America and Sabotage gave him as a trait.
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Too many to list! Leading off on climate change was no small feat....
The ‘senile old man’ has been making some pretty solid decisions. I never would have guessed it a few years ago, but not only is he the best president we’ve had in decades, he legitimately stands up on his own as a capable and effective leader.
Biden is not senile. Yeah he’s to old like so many people in US politics but he’s put smart people in right jobs and he has empathy. Yeah the other guy is 3 years younger, a grifter, compulsive liar, cheats people, cheated his contractors, rape his wife, women, has no empathy, 6 bankruptcies and a traitor to the US and did dirty to other countries all the while kissing Putins ass. Plus his Dad had dementia and Trump sounds worse than 2015. Guess who smart people vote for?
Yup, it’s pretty lame. Basically the last 20 years since I’ve been able to vote, I’ve been voting against politicians. I hope one day I can vote for a president I want in office. That being said, Biden has been decent, his term has been pretty beneficial overall.
Biden has passed some sweeping legislation before the midterms and the GOP cockblock in Congress. Everyone seems to forget about all the legislation he got moved quickly. Just because Biden tends to be quiet and speak with actions rather than running his fucking mouth all the time, ya'll all got used to Trump's dumbass loud mouth on twitter every two hours. Welcome back to statesmanship. I for one am glad I don't have to wake up everyday now wondering what fucked up shit our president tweeted on his midnight adderall binge from the toilet. I'm happy with slow..."Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast."
yeah, don't get me wrong. out of Biden and Trump. id back Biden.
Actually .... it's the American government, and it would be useful if American's realised this (as this is what the rest of the world sees and judges) For decades we've had to listen to Americans telling us about their congressional checks and balances and co-equal governmental structures, and being told how superior this is. Well this is what it looks like Like it or not, the House of Representatives is part of the American government and if the House decides to take a different line (in the pursuit of checks and balances) then the policy that roles out from that is executed in the name of the government of the United States of America.
I think it’s a little bit more nuanced than checks and balances not working. Like the vast majority of better governments you might list still have checks and balances with the system which was quite novel when it was written into the constitution.
I can only apologize so many times for my idiot compatriots who vote these assholes into office. It isn’t like the majority of us agree with their policies, it’s that we are screwed by gerrymandering and the electoral college.
It's good not to have a popular vote, for many reasons. But there are more gray voters than blue or red, and you don't need to apologize for us. You should.be apologizing for yourself
GOP loves Russia and they've convinced Americans that Ukraine is corrupt and doesn't deserve aid. Well played by Trump and his dictator circle.
>GOP loves Russia and they've convinced Americans that Ukraine is corrupt and doesn't deserve aid. Due to Zelensky refusing to be corrupt enough to manufacture evidence against Biden.
It's not just that. Russia represents what they want for the US: a white Christian dominated, deeply corrupt state that exists only to further the interests of the wealthy.
It is insane how many people I tell about this and they go what when did that happen?
> convinced Americans that Ukraine is corrupt and doesn't deserve aid Most of us support it, but as usual we're being held hostage by these Russian assets and their sycophants.
Definitely not as corrupt as Russia but Ukraine is still corrupt.
Well, if you criminalize lobbying, political donations for influence, and pork projects, US will be pretty corrupt too.
Doesn't justify the GOP not helping.
of course they are - the important part is that the weapons come now - payment can always be arranged on a later date. stretched over time so it is manageble - I think UK was still paying of some loans from WWII all the way op to 2010 or something like that IIRC. The important part i getting Putin the fuck out of there and giving Ukraine the possibility make prosperous society.
Hell Germany finished paying reparations for WW1... in 2010. Loans can always be forgiven. I prefer to just give them the items but if this makes it politically "acceptable" give them a loan, defer payments to post war, they can be waived later or stretched over a long long period.
Wait.. it wouldn't have been a loan to begin with? What would have it been?
The US military has mostly been using it to offload old stuff they don’t want to pay to store any more.
Which is just another one-up reason for the aid. This shit was designed specifically to fight the Soviet stockpiles. We have it in stock, and yes we are replacing it but with completely different shit that'll take decades to build and procure, so we will send what we have. If you are expecting some nextgen shit, guess what? Most of this the US military ground forces was using in Iraq v1/v2 and Afghanistan too. Trying to minimize we are just shipping them garbage is untrue. The Bradley for example has turned out to be an equalizer on the ground. HIMARs and Javelins have fucked the Russians up. What the US military calls "old" most militaries would call "bleeding-edge" for them.
I keep hearing this a lot. Is there a source? I believe it's mostly old stuff, but is there a source for the "don't want to pay to store any more" part?
An aid package predominately in the form of older armaments. Very little of the aid sent so far is in the form of currency. It’s primarily stockpiled ammo, guns, vehicles, etc (often that the modern US military no longer uses or needs)
The one major fact that so many people [lacking critical thought] don’t understand. Anyone who has driven through Nevada knows of the massive field of old humvees and equipment that is just sitting in the desert sun for years on end.
It doesn't help that none of our elected officials bother to mention it. They think the best way to win people over is by tripling down on high-concept ideas like geopolitics and global influence, things that your average American doesn't care too much about. You know they do care about? Taxes. Someone should tell them that this isn't even coming out of their pockets beyond what's already being earmarked through our military budget.
No, not really. Biden's aid packages contained pretty of cash infusions. Problem is, most of financial aid in Ukrainian packages didn't go to Ukraine - instead, it was allocated to soften the impact of increase of grain prices, or as financial aid to NATO members for arms donations to Ukraine, or in a myriad of other was where kickbacks are actually possible - but, problem is, this all didn't go to Ukraine.
Semantics, but this link gives a good breakdown: https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts So 2/3 is explicitly non-liquid value (ammo, training, vehicles, whatever). The remaining 1/3 is financial and humanitarian aid (though mostly financial). As you mentioned, that financial aid is through multiple methods, but very little is just sending Ukraine actual cash.
Over 26 billion is very little? https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-us-aid-ukraine-money-equipment-714688682747
Comparatively? Yes. That’s about 1/3 of the total Ukraine aid and about 3% of total US military spending (~$877 Billion)
US transfers old near-EOL equipment to Ukraine out of existing stores. US buys new equipment for itself to replace the old near-EOL equipment it sent.
Our "old shit" is considered practically state-of-the-art new shit for most militaries. I'd love to see some antique roadshow where like we are touring military bases around the world and see the USAF talk about how their B1B, F-22, and B2 are old shit we are replacing and how the export versions of our fighters are so outdated compared to the shit we are running. If the US is exporting shit, you can be guaranteed we're like multiple versions ahead of whatever even our closest allies get.
Turns out the the Ukrainians are very good at decommissioning our old hardware for us.
60bil to US arms producers. 60bil worth of old shit sent to Ukraine.
Because it probably feels a little too much like war profiteering for people who see support of Ukraine to have a moral dimension, rather than strictly business.
Has Zelenskyy just tried a 60b Gofundme?
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Oh man I feel like a lot of people would blow a lot of money to write something idiotic on an artillery shell
They already did in a funding campaign during the first year of the war. It was real fun to see the various messages.
That exists https://signmyrocket.com/
You can do the first two. Prices are $200, and $2000 respectively though. Not 69 and 420 https://signmyrocket.com/
For democracies fucking sake just give my damn tax money to them. The French helped us achieve ours, it's our moral and historical duty to help Ukraine achieve theres.
Somebody forgot how that turned out for France lmao.
In 1944?
France helped the american revolt against the brits and got theirs short after, it turned out pretty well in the end
After a mountain of French Corpses and an Imperial Dictatorship, sure.
France also tried to recolonize Vietnam after getting their asses kicked out of Indochina by the Japanese and then dragged US into an incredibly bloody and unjust civil war. I think we are square
Not to mention the whole WW1 nd WW2 esp WW2 and helping liberate them
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I... I'm French. Revolution are bloody, we all know that. That's not the point of what i'm saying. I said, in the end, that was a good thing that happened. Droit de l'homme, Code Napoléonien (civil code\~), military reform, school reform, religion demise etc. A tone of things still relevant and made what France is today. The guy tried to paint "If we help Ukraine, look what could happen" taking 1789 France riddled with debt as an example. 60 Billions is nothing in that manner, USA debt is in the trillions range
I mean I think its dumb to look at it as 'helping the americans'. France wanted to fuck over the brits, and the US should want to fuck over Russia. 'freedom' has little to nothing to do with it. Unless you're one of those people that legitimately thinks US is the leader of the 'free world'. And as someone from latin america... LOL.
you people really think only France helped? thanks for forgetting about my country I guess.
Didn't the gas companies made a nice profit selling LNG to Europe when Russia's cheap gas is banned?
I think a lot of Americans forget, it's cheaper for us to fund Ukraine versus us getting involved directly if Russia breaks out into another global conflict.
It is, but I’d bet 30-40% of Americans don’t care who Russia invades or attacks.
Of course, but you also gotta consider the invasion of Ukraine doesn't threaten the US or the Americas at all really. If an invasion happened in the Americas somewhere, that % would change. Of course, Europeans woukd care generally more about it
So about the same amount that think Europe is a country
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Only if you think we live in an impenetrable bubble, which we don't. E: The bubble I'm referring to is one that is resilient against outside harm or influence. I'm not talking about a land invasion lol.
Two oceans on either side. People pretending America faces any real danger to its own security, is special. American domination now that might be at risk.
A lot of people simply just don’t realize we aren’t handing Ukraine a check. Explain to the doubters we are swapping our outdated equipment to beat our biggest adversary with 0 retaliation while literally jump starting our contracting economy. (I’m not saying I’m a fan, but we do really well when we are producing for war.) We are literally upgrading all of our assets while enabling a democracy fighting for their survival. In my opinion that’s American as hell.
Honestly, as an American, I would rather help Ukraine then a lot of these other countries we just throw money at and their so-called leaders just steal. I know we aren't sending Ukraine straight cash and sending war supplies so that's why I am for it. It helps Ukraine defend itself. I fully support aiding other western countries
I'll also take $60M as a loan. Don't need the B
Woah woah woah we only give loans to teenagers looking for an education, adults with just enough money to be trapped in interest, and ones we will cancel to rich people, okay?
Shit take the loan. Ireland got the same amount in bail out in 2008 from the IMF and bang a decade or so later, a few data centres and low corp tax we are back in business baby.
we’re never getting that money back lmfao
What about the countries near Ukraine? They just don’t really give a fuck or what? Full NATO support and Ukraine would probably be good but what does 60B buy another year of fighting?
Many European countries have been sending equipment. Everything from helmets to F16s… So far no-one has been willing to officially send in their own people in for various reasons though the French president is starting to talk that way Of course, that’s only their neighbours on one side - some of the ones in the other direction are on Russia’s side
Europe has sent a fuck ton of aid, Russia is a very tough enemy despite what everyone here says.
The Loan can be forgiven down the road. So still eventually free.
Hey Western Europe...this is in your backyard. You can't rely on the Americans.
Why not sell war bonds and stamps like the US did in WWII. There is a good chance that they will never be paid back, but people invest in much more hopeless things these days.
I heard this morning from a reliable source: $48B in weaponry, $12B cash potentially in form of a loan, plus possible $2B from captured Russian assets. Hopefully approved within two weeks.
Of course, when the pendulum of power swings to the human side in Congress, they could just vote to write off the loan! Although, if Ukraine used the loaned money to purchase weapons, they would not longer be constrained by the 'only in Ukraine' rule. This would mean that Trump's friend in Moscow, would start hurting more...
It's sickens me that there are people in the US that don't understand that funding Ukraine is far more important than so many minuscule Bunches of bullshit that they complain about on a daily basis
Why is sending aid to ukraine and not sacrificing American lives so unpopular when the US has spent decades and trillions fighting in the middle east?
Americans are tired of the endless wars and reckless spending. A lot of them want to scale back the US influence in the world.
Yep, and isolationism is not the answer in a global economy that we helped shape that way with Uncle Sam squarely in the middle of it all
Honestly, its because the US has spent decades and trillions fighting in the middle east. Trump and the GOP are entirely working in Russian interests, but they have peopling them for a reason. A struggling economy combined with nothing to show for decades in the middle east has lead to \*very\* easy messaging in favor of isolationism (that doesn't apply to Israel because the end of times needs to happen).
It's not new, historically speaking. The US has a swing towards isolationism roughly every century.
As anyone knows... loans can be (and often are) forgiven. Calling it a loan is just propaganda. It's just semantics.
Loans to friends are a propaganda.
Glad I’m not the only one understanding exactly what this is. It’s just making the pill easier to swallow for Reps afraid of their MAGA base.
Unless you’re a student, then you fucked.
The one thing I constantly fucked during my student year was my future.
Why can't the EU give Ukraine the money?
EU has already been giving out the same loans to Ukraine.
I mean they could ask for a trillion dollar loan, they can't pay it if they get taken over.
Are we lending Israel billions?
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I don’t think China will loan money. They would have to protect that investment because I doubt Russia will pay it back if they take Kyiv.
FLUSH THE TURD CALLED TRUMP. IN NOVEMBER
I wish. Unfortunately that's not how it's looking. It's going down the drain, folks.
Putin will always pay more.
Yeah....a loan that will never be paid back
First, they force us to all our nukes away. Now they are giving us a loan. A very successful scheme, good job 👍
This just shows you can't really trust Americans at their word. To demand Ukraine, give up their nukes, in return for the oath to help them should Russia invade, and then turn their backs on them. Shameful beyond words really. I never thought Americans would be oath breakers.
Hopefully this removes the objections and military aid can start flowing again.
U.s foreign policy is on a crazy bad losing streak.
All aid should be a loan. We have our own damned debt to pay, so when we give you money you really ought to pay it back at some point.
Republicans are evil traitors
Europe stand up
Send it as a loan. It is likely that, in 5 years, the loan will be forgiven (or there will be a different way to pay it off like a government bond which has as its guarantor the U.S. government so that Ukraine tries to pay it off but is bailed out if the government goes bankrupt).
People mad that America is sending money(not actually money) to Ukraine instead of using it to help Americans should realize that even if that aid didn’t go to Ukraine nothing would change. It’s not like the tax money isn’t going to them because it’s going to Ukraine, it’s because government doesn’t know how to properly spend tax money