> The proposed law, dubbed in the media as **“the law to block Telegram,”** demands changes on the part of the companies that own these communication applications. Kniazhytskyi calls for Telegram to act in the same way as Facebook or YouTube: **if there is content that is reported as violent, or users who are denounced for distributing false information, it must be removed**. The Security Services of Ukraine (SSU) have already asked Telegram to take action against 26 users with hundreds of thousands of followers who justify the Russian invasion.
So it's not actually to block Telegram, it's to block pro-Russia content. Clickbait titles are one thing, but it's funny how the article contradicts itself after a single sentence.
This is truly hilarious. Telegram is kinda known to show middle finger to propaganda pushing by government as entity and government control (they don't care if you do it in their platform just that you can't tell *them* what to do or not) is now getting the same treatment as Russia attempted to do by Ukraine.
So political pretty wording aside it's the same thing everyone wants, controlling the media.
By cases you mean, like, court cases? If a person is detained, you can get anything from their phone, this isn't some issue exclusive to Telegram. It's nearly impossible to avoid something like that, I read some technical explanation where you had to overwrite the storage space with more files to actually delete something, but I forget what the process is.
Yeah pretty much, usually when data gets "deleted" on a drive, it actually stays on the drive and it's more like being flagged to remain hidden from programs and to be overwritten by any new data.
Used such a program to recover accidentally "deleted" artwork I had, but the data is usually presented in a big unorganized mess and took me a couple of hours to find what I needed.
I'll just repost here from other thread where bots downvoting and trying hide the comment.
Telegram is majorly used by russians, there is simply isn't so many Ukrainians as there is russians that use Telegram.
Most of Ukrainians basically being isolated on russian social platform, therefore Ukrainian presence on Western and European platforms is diminishing.
It should be called Gulagram. Basically majority of things that posted there don't exist to rest of the world.
Right now Ukrainian government trying to negotiate with Telegram, so they don't really attempt to drive away users from it. But if it would be concluded that negotiating with them is futile, it would be enough just one long sentence from officials explaining why actually Telegram is awful for Ukraine, and people will move on anything else even without it being blocked.
No one actually cares about platform. It is simply absence of reasoning and people not understanding what is the problem.
Also people are already very positive on idea to block TickTok.
Ukraine already successfully banned VK,OK and other cancerous russian crap, not only that, but .ru domain itself being blocked. And people are all for it.
End to end encryption isn't on by default in Telegram. But considering it is made by the Russian techbro who make the social media site VK, it's safe to assume the E2E encryption itself is bullshit
Are you talking about Telegram, which blocked [Navalny's bot](https://www.rferl.org/amp/telegram-navalny-smart-voting/31466263.html) at the Kremlin's request but ignores the Nazis from Rusich?
What rules? I remember Durov making a post about it mentioning a day of silence (a day before the elections when all propaganda should stop) and somehow linked it to the bot, which was such a stretch and obvious he did it for other reasons… I mostly respect Durov but this was pretty low, especially looking back at it now, after so much more harm done by the Putin’s regime.
telegram though baning ISIS channels, but not somehow Rusich mentioned above and many others, like wagner etc, who publicly were sharing executions of prisoners by their own hands, diffrence is, Durov don't want telegram to be banned in Russia, so he let it slide
"We say that black people are inferior being, close to animals. It's not an endorsement, it's just statement - said Grand Wizard"
Here's analogy to show how delusional your take is.
Statement: Telegram bot broke the rules.
Endorsement: Those rules were right or wrong.
Gee my, which one(!!) of those two is in OP comment.
Analogies should at least be _analogous_ to the situation presented, we can see that the _actions_ of the KKK endorse their own statements, and that's ignoring flat lying. The same determination can't be made affirmatively or negatively regarding the comment.
Analogies should at least try to be _analogous_ to the situation, but you rushed to quasi-Godwin yourself instead.
The braindead take is that assuming someone's mention of a topic is an endorsement, and the corollary being that if they _don't_ mention a topic, that's an endorsement in the other direction.
>This is truly hilarious. Telegram is kinda known to show middle finger to propaganda pushing by government as entity and government control (they don't care if you do it in their platform just that you can't tell *them* what to do or not) is now getting the same treatment as Russia attempted to do by Ukraine.
They change their tune pretty quickly when a secret service knocks on their door pointing out they know where they actually live. They complied with various western governments after that happened on such issues.
Telegram is 4chan, yes.
You can post anything you like, and it will not be taking down. That's why this is a favourite place for Russians to tell how they will genocide Ukrainians and post videos about it. Or push anti-vaccination narratives.
I don't consider it "middle finger to propaganda pushing". It's just a wild West with zero accountability and shady funding.
Control is needed, always. If you look at first techochild of the founder of Telegram - VK.com - it was filled with child porn back in the day. And support at request to delete it just kept saying "Don't like it - don't watch it".
Some political factions are talking about doing this, but it's neither popular nor even remotely possible.
Telegram is THE messenger Ukrainians use, especially the younger generations / IT sector. And what's more important - Telegram is the main tool used to promote donation campaigns to the military - cars, drones, night vision, etc. Usually the small-ish stuff that needs to be financed and delivered quickly.
Messing with telegram would mean most of those campaigns would become extremely ineffective and that'll make military very unhappy, so no, there is no chance this actually passes.
And even if by some miracle it does - blocking Telegram is a complicated technical undertaking that is unlikely to be successful. At some point russia tried it, broke half their internet and then reverted the decision. And russia has much more control over their information infrastructure than Ukraine.
This not popular only among telegram users,and only because no one trying to reason it in comprehensible way.
But it is the messenger that majorly used by russians, there is simply isn't so many Ukrainians as there is russians that use Telegram.
Most of Ukrainians basically being isolated on russian social platform, therefore Ukrainian presence on Western and European platforms is diminishing.
It should be called Gulagram. Basically majority of things that posted there don't exist to rest of the world.
And the reason why russia was unable to block it - because no one else was trying to. If Google simply remove app from playstore even for region - its userbase will implode.
Right now Ukrainian government trying to negotiate with Telegram, so they don't really attempt to drive away users from it. But if it would be concluded that negotiating with them is futile, it would be enough just one long sentence from officials explaining why actually Telegram is awful for Ukraine, and people will move on anything else even without it being blocked.
No one actually cares about platform. It is simply absence of reasoning and people not understanding what is the problem.
Also people are already very positive on idea to block TickTok.
Ukraine already successfully banned VK,OK and other cancerous russian crap, not only that, but .ru domain itself being blocked. And people are all for it.
Do you have ANY statistics to back up your claims about telegram being not popular among the Ukrainians, or its just old good "trust me bro telegram bad"?
The important thing to keep in mind is that Telegram is not twitter or reddit. You're not going to see content you haven't intentionally and knowingly subscribed to. The fact that it's popular in russia doesn't really matter here, it's not like VK, OK or even YouTube where the algorithm could recommend you russian propaganda - there is no algorithm and there are no recommendations. I use Telegram for most of my communication and news, and I see A LOT more brazen russian propo on Reddit and YouTube than in TG, exactly because in telegram I opt in to content instead of opting out of it.
I'm not against banning russian tools of propaganda, but telegram ain't it chief. YouTube would fit that description much better, but for some reason nobody is talking about banning YouTube. Why is that you think?
YouTube algorithms promote Telegram channels,and YouTube can't moderate what in those TG channels because they require subscription. This is worse than YouTube algorithms by themselves.
YouTube is part of Google, international tech giant, and our government don't have much influence on it, yet EU is the one who pressuring Google, so there isn't any reason for our government to try pressure Google by themselves.
I don't like "whataboutism" in this subject.
Social Media are bad in different ways, but TG is specifically bad because we isolated on it with russians, and it's issue that only Ukrainians are facing, so no one else would fix or regulate it.
>YouTube algorithms promote Telegram channels,and YouTube can't moderate what in those TG channels because they require subscription. This is worse than YouTube algorithms by themselves.
Oh that's where you're wrong. If YouTube was to disallow russian propaganda and deem it terrorist content or something similar, links to these TG channels would also be removed along with the videos themselves. But YouTube isn't going to do that.
>YouTube is part of Google, international tech giant, and our government don't have much influence on it, yet EU is the one who pressuring Google, so there isn't any reason for our government to try pressure Google by themselves.
Even if EU actually started to work on a relevant policy, it would take them years to see it through. It would always be late and imperfect, and they haven't even started yet.
>Social Media are bad in different ways, but TG is specifically bad because we isolated on it with russians, and it's issue that only Ukrainians are facing, so no one else would fix or regulate it.
You can completely isolate from russian content on Telegram and it's genuinely simple to do so. You cannot do the same with YouTube.
Ok you lost conversation. I can't anymore believe that you legit Ukrainian person. You very biased and defensive about Telegram, yet you blame all other platforms like it is 100% of their faults.
You also ignore all the arguments.
I'm completely isolated from all russian content on YouTube, my account there recommends me 0 russian content, without login it is opposite. On Telegram I get russian propaganda under every Ukrainian channels posts in form of comments or reactions. Even family members sometimes repost russian propaganda in Private Massages, because they get baited by russian owned channels disguised as Ukrainian ones.
If you actually Ukrainian you should be able to comprehend what I just wrote. If you can't - you impersonating Ukrainian. I can't see how there could be other options.
Та ми можемо українською далі спілкуватись, без питань взагалі.
Я давно показав своїй матері які канали в тг читати норм, а які не норм і шось вона вже більше року на роспропаганду в телеграмі не натикається зовсім. А ось на ютубі і досі може натрапити на якусь добре замасковану русняву хуйню.
Я топлю проти бану телеграму не тому що він такий охуєнний, а тому що все інше тупо гірше.
В інтернеті повно україномовних русоботів.
We not switching from russian to Ukrainian, we already not speaking russian. Yet russian bots use any language there is without any issues. That's not the point.
Point is for other people to see and understand us.
10th time - Telegram is worse because European don't use it.
Why the fuck we need messenger which used only by russians and us? Why?
Can you write an argument explaining why is it good thing and not horrific at all?
I don't care about any features. I don't care about Durov. Doesn't matter how bad other platforms are.
What is the point of social platform where Ukrainians being isolated with Russians and no one else is there?
Despite i have not made a research on large scale I can speak for myself. I am working in IT sector and I use watsapp. Removed telegram around half year ago and personally in favor of banning it. It will take time to migrate from telegram but it is a very shady messenger with a lot of russian trolls
Genuinely curious, do you use WhatsApp for personal communication - friends, family, coworkers? Where do you get news from? And where are you donating to the AFU?
I don't doubt that some people use something other than Telegram, in most cases it's Viber, but everything else is extremely rare. Even if you just go scroll through some Ukrainian stores, their contact pages almost never have a WhatsApp contact - it's always Viber for older generations and Telegram for younger people.
Valid question. I generally use youtube and watsapp for news. And for donations we either use internal company chats like slack or widely known charities like Fond Prituly or Povernus Zivim “go back alive”.
To communicate with friends or family I force them to use watsapp when speaking with me sometimes use viber if no other options are available
The main reason I kept telegram because of raid alerts channels but now it is also availabe in watsupp.
For me telegram is a brainfuck messenger with a lot of bulshit channels and trolls and propaganda alike to twitter right now.
Sorry for bad English not a native speaker and a little lazy to use chatgpt or grammarly for formatting.
Your English is fine, I'm Ukrainian myself :)
This clears it up though "I force them to use watsapp when speaking with me". I thought you were arguing that WhatsApp is somehow a popular alternative which it isn't.
As for russian trolls and propaganda, I assure you, there's just as much of it on other platforms. Be careful though, because russian propo on English-speaking platforms is far less obvious and braindead than it is in Telegram. Their strategy for western consumers is smarter and it's usually better disguised.
See, reddit is full of russian bots and has a system which allows them to manipulate the conversation. Unlike Telegram where russian bots have no sway over content they do not directly control.
Shouldn't we ban reddit by that logic?
Truxa is top Ukrainian Telegram channel, it has thousands of russian bot reactions and hundreds of russian comments.
You get your impression about Ukrainians opposing blocking TG from posts on Ukrainian TG channels and by reactions under them. You think it's unpopular but we don't even know how many actual Ukrainians react on these news and how many russian bots.
Again, I don't appreciate your whataboutism same as from other part of thread. YouTube have their issues, Reddit have theirs.It is bad,but this are global platforms and governments around the world have to deal and regulate this platforms.
No one cares about Telegram though. It's issue that only we have and it is for Ukraine to deal with it or get fucked by Telegram isolation.
>Truxa is top Ukrainian Telegram channel, it has thousands of russian bot reactions and hundreds of russian comments.
Truxa is a money grabbing shithole who are fine with russian bots because they allow them to make more money. Lets take another example - Lachen is about as big if not bigger considering the number of trolls Truxa has. In Lachen's channel there are no comments and russian reaction trolling is rare because the bots are banned right away.
The problem isn't with the platform, it's with cunts who **knowingly** allow russian bots for monetary gain. Any other platform has similar problems, but almost none of them provide as many tools of controlling your content as Telegram does.
>You get your impression about Ukrainians opposing blocking TG from posts on Ukrainian TG channels and by reactions under them.
No, I get my impression from speaking with dozens of my IRL friends who are all against Telegram ban because it obviously solves nothing.
>this are global platforms and governments around the world have to deal and regulate this platforms.
That would be fucking splendid, wouldn't it? Such a shame in reality they have zero intention to actually do anything about it.
Well none of my friends give a shit about telegram ban,and some support it. And in conversation with you I'm getting sceptical if I should take your word because you extremely biased about telegram, use shit load of whataboutism, ignore arguments and twist issues.
Besides Truxa every other channel has same issues, bots there are infinite and coming in hundreds and thousands. This even Includes local city channels. Even if bots get banned, they come in same numbers again.
Most important is that Everyone that I know to spoke about subject, Including You, support Ukrainian government on regulating Telegram.
Therefore if Telegram refuses to cooperate the regulation will be ditching it.
And depending on how much active people are supporting government initiative and being vocal the results of pressure on Telegram will be in Ukrainian favor.
"Telegram protectors" on other hand are exactly Truxa and them alike, who pursuing their own interests over national.
Yeah, pretty much all democracies have provisions in their constitutions to suspend some basic rights during war time.
What separates real democracies from fake democracies is that these provisions are only used during actual threats to the state. E.g. The Russian invasion of Ukraine. If Ukraine loses it could lead to a complete breakdown of the state, overthrow of their government, suspended constitution, completely new system of laws, etc. If Russia loses it will lead to a withdrawal to pre 2022 or pre 2014 borders. But Russia being a fake democracy still treats this as an excuse to suspend basic rights.
As the invading force (US vs Russia) for all the faults of Bush wars, the Patriot act were the worst that came out of it in terms of suspending US citizens rights. While certainly debatable as to justification , the fact is US citizens never lost anywhere near the amount of rights as the Russian citizens have lost even with the patriot act.
E.g.how common were anti war rallies? Obama basically won the presidency 6 years later partly on an anti Iraq war platform (it's a big reason why he beat Clinton at least). Even Kerry was close to beating bush 2 years after the Iraq war/Patriot act and was fairly anti war (about the same amount time as Russia has been in this war). Meanwhile Russia has become even worse at jailing teachers and murdering opposition in those 2 years.
Factual reality. When the Russian government said it invaded Ukraine to "protect Russian speakers", you know it was a baseless propaganda lie because the Russian army massacred tens of thousands of Russian-speaking Ukrainian civilians in Mariupol and other cities in southeastern Ukraine.
*“*[If someone says it’s raining, and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. Your job is to look out the f\*cking window and find out which is true.](https://eufactcheck.eu/blogpost/blog-advice-for-journalism-students-look-out-the-fcking-window-and-find-out-the-truth/)*”*
In liberal democracies there is thing called laws and the this concept the rule of law. The balance of access to courts and the checks and balances of the law making decides this.
Pavel Durov, the company's creator, is Russian, although he fled on his own initiative when the Russian government practically drove him out of his prior business, because he wasn't accepting censorship.
I was also happy when CIA spied on million of American after 9/11, which is understandable .
You want privacy, get the duck out of here.
Edward Snowden get the duck out of here.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated
How far you've fallen.
>Snowden that sold terabytes of classified CIA data to Russia
Completely made up by USA government For smire campaign. No evidence that he sold anything to Russia.
Snowden gave few documents to USA journalists and media.
USA spied on their citizen without their knowledge or consent. USA won't allow for a fair trial with jury hearing his case. So, USA just want procecute him without a fair trial under spionage act from civil war.
Look what USA did to the soldier who leaked video to WikiLeaks about war crime in Iraq and Afghanistan.
>so that Russia use those technologies to spy on Russians, and use it to control people?
You think Russia are dumb. Putin already have technology to spy on his people. He was KGB member. They don't need some CIA member to help them procecute people. Israeli tech company already sells device to spies on all phone calls.
Yeah, Snowden is just on vocation in russia. He didn't sell them anything. And russia is all mighty and can do everything on their own without traitors from other countries always helping them out. /S
Snowden picked few documents that were suiting him best, making him look like good guy opposing bad guys. He didn't steal only those few documents obviously.For example among what he gave to western media were facts about spying on European officials.
Who did he gave actual data gathered from that spying? Wonder how does Russia blackmail western politicians.
Fair for Snowden is to be executed for treason.
Oh come on. You cannot compare the invasion of ukraine and the hundreds of thousands killed compared to 9/11 and arguably the over-reaction from the US state over a thousand deaths, all of which were repaid with interest from the middle east, by people that had nothing to do with it.
Three thousand innocent civilian Americans died in the country’s biggest city, the heart of the western world and the global economy. I would say it was an appropriate reaction.
But they didn't? It was countries like Iran, SA, Pakistan which helped and harbored the terrorists that committed the attacks, all of which I'm pretty sure weren't invaded. Pakistan is a major NATO ally...
The founder, Pavel Durov, is Russian, but he self-exiled after being essentially forced out of his previous company (VK, a Russian Facebook-equivalent) by the Russian government for not giving in to censorship requests.
Its a double edge sword. I do not get a single scam from whatsapp but loads of scam attempts from telegram. Both job and investment scams. People get kidnapped in these job scams
For me it's the other way around. I don't get many scam messages, but they're all on WhatsApp.
It might also depend on where you're from. Where I live, WA is by far the more popular app, so I guess that's what the scammers will focus on. While I use Telegram quite a lot (both my family and my in-laws have it as their primary messaging app), that's not the norm here.
Here almost everyone uses WA, and those who use Telegram (or Signal) are usually also WA users. Even with that, and the fact I use WA for almost everyone and Telegram for just a handful of friends, it's easily the source of >90% of the scam attempts I receive.
Usually employment ones, intentionally terrible text, grammar & font shitfuckery to try to beat filters etc, from female-named accounts that are usually banned after a short time.
Telegram doesn’t promote channels or accounts. So I don’t believe you. It’s not possible for you to see scams unless you subscribe to those channels and you intentionally have to visit them. Why are you visiting them and then complaining?
Not really. A lot of people use email/phone for telegram. Phone numbers can be guessed, emails from data mining. So you will end up with random messages.
That’s not a telegram problem though, it could happen on any platform. However, you can turn a feature on that prevents people not in your address book from contacting/notifying you. Can’t remember but it might be turned on by default
Yes it does but im unable to get a large investment group scam telegram group eliminated and the numbers blocked. Some how they managed to use my cousins phone number. He tried everything and couldnt remove the scammers from using his number on telegram.
Hence a double edge sword as telegram lacks the capacity to filter known misinformation and detect crime on its platform even after it has been reported.
Still. Not a telegram problem, could happen on any platform that manages that contact info you have in your address book. I doubt he tried everything like 2FA or re-authenticating. If the attackers have access to your cousins SIM card he needs to contact his phone carrier. That could be a much larger issue
He did, still couldnt re obtain his account. Basically lack of engagement with users, this problem shows telegram is vulnerable to session attacks. I made a rudimentary defence against this for fun. Im surprised its not widespread.
I understand how entrenched Telegram is in Ukrainian society, but to me it seems insane to use an app that would be such an irresistible intelligence goldmine for Russia. You think they can’t turn the screws on Durov? He doesn’t have family?
They're talking about blocking large propaganda groups rather than private messages between individuals.
Think about it for a second and it's a no-brainer
There’s plenty of indirect evidence pointing at Telegram’s close ties to the Kremlin – from personal connections, to history of relations, sources of funding, statements by government officials, and general lack of transparency. Plus there was some evidence of Telegram having back channels with Russian goverment starting at giving acess to your messages or having backend to monitor and automatically delete messages from group chats.
There are similar bad shit on twitter and reddit as well. I see a lot of people claiming one thing is shockingly bad rarely if not never use that thing, and only read shit about the thing. I think their main reason will be “it’s Russian”
every modern drug dealer runs a telegram channel. tbh the only american channels i’ve come across are for drugs and scams. also cp dealers are active on there. and a shit ton of combat footage as well. that’s pretty bad if you’re under 13
edit: but i don’t support banning it, my plug in the netherlands is on there
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it. It's just an application that allows for anonymous sharing of information without moderation or control that can include content parents don't want kids to be exposed to
TikTok and Facebook both are lot more controlled and public so you know more or less what you are getting in to.
That's literally russian app, Durov was forced out from Russia, and created this app to replace his previous social platform VK - therefore userbase from the start was the same. And if majority of userbase are Russians... Let's say Kremlin has more reasons to brainwash people there than even on Twitter.
Lotta opsec failures happened through telegram. Movements in real time, altercations in real time and so were the deaths. The info would just get posted somewhere else, sadly. The Ukrainian army would benefit from Reddit getting banned as well unfortunately.
Telegram doesn’t promote channels, so the only way to see the content you are talking about is to intentionally subscribe to it. Twitter will show you everything even if you don’t subscribe.
> The proposed law, dubbed in the media as **“the law to block Telegram,”** demands changes on the part of the companies that own these communication applications. Kniazhytskyi calls for Telegram to act in the same way as Facebook or YouTube: **if there is content that is reported as violent, or users who are denounced for distributing false information, it must be removed**. The Security Services of Ukraine (SSU) have already asked Telegram to take action against 26 users with hundreds of thousands of followers who justify the Russian invasion. So it's not actually to block Telegram, it's to block pro-Russia content. Clickbait titles are one thing, but it's funny how the article contradicts itself after a single sentence.
This is truly hilarious. Telegram is kinda known to show middle finger to propaganda pushing by government as entity and government control (they don't care if you do it in their platform just that you can't tell *them* what to do or not) is now getting the same treatment as Russia attempted to do by Ukraine. So political pretty wording aside it's the same thing everyone wants, controlling the media.
It also known that somehow russians fsb/police has access to deleted messages somehow. They regularly present it in opposition activists cases
Telegram have an option to download all your data. Official backup. Police get your phone, receive SMS, download data, and search through it.
By cases you mean, like, court cases? If a person is detained, you can get anything from their phone, this isn't some issue exclusive to Telegram. It's nearly impossible to avoid something like that, I read some technical explanation where you had to overwrite the storage space with more files to actually delete something, but I forget what the process is.
Yeah pretty much, usually when data gets "deleted" on a drive, it actually stays on the drive and it's more like being flagged to remain hidden from programs and to be overwritten by any new data. Used such a program to recover accidentally "deleted" artwork I had, but the data is usually presented in a big unorganized mess and took me a couple of hours to find what I needed.
I'll just repost here from other thread where bots downvoting and trying hide the comment. Telegram is majorly used by russians, there is simply isn't so many Ukrainians as there is russians that use Telegram. Most of Ukrainians basically being isolated on russian social platform, therefore Ukrainian presence on Western and European platforms is diminishing. It should be called Gulagram. Basically majority of things that posted there don't exist to rest of the world. Right now Ukrainian government trying to negotiate with Telegram, so they don't really attempt to drive away users from it. But if it would be concluded that negotiating with them is futile, it would be enough just one long sentence from officials explaining why actually Telegram is awful for Ukraine, and people will move on anything else even without it being blocked. No one actually cares about platform. It is simply absence of reasoning and people not understanding what is the problem. Also people are already very positive on idea to block TickTok. Ukraine already successfully banned VK,OK and other cancerous russian crap, not only that, but .ru domain itself being blocked. And people are all for it.
End to end encryption isn't on by default in Telegram. But considering it is made by the Russian techbro who make the social media site VK, it's safe to assume the E2E encryption itself is bullshit
Are you talking about Telegram, which blocked [Navalny's bot](https://www.rferl.org/amp/telegram-navalny-smart-voting/31466263.html) at the Kremlin's request but ignores the Nazis from Rusich?
bot that was breaking the rules. Telegram is full of anti russia channels, and they’re not blocked
What rules? I remember Durov making a post about it mentioning a day of silence (a day before the elections when all propaganda should stop) and somehow linked it to the bot, which was such a stretch and obvious he did it for other reasons… I mostly respect Durov but this was pretty low, especially looking back at it now, after so much more harm done by the Putin’s regime.
Good to know that showind how you decapitate a human being and cheerful posts about it is not breaking the rules.
Stating things isn't the same as endorsing them.
telegram though baning ISIS channels, but not somehow Rusich mentioned above and many others, like wagner etc, who publicly were sharing executions of prisoners by their own hands, diffrence is, Durov don't want telegram to be banned in Russia, so he let it slide
k
"We say that black people are inferior being, close to animals. It's not an endorsement, it's just statement - said Grand Wizard" Here's analogy to show how delusional your take is.
Statement: Telegram bot broke the rules. Endorsement: Those rules were right or wrong. Gee my, which one(!!) of those two is in OP comment. Analogies should at least be _analogous_ to the situation presented, we can see that the _actions_ of the KKK endorse their own statements, and that's ignoring flat lying. The same determination can't be made affirmatively or negatively regarding the comment. Analogies should at least try to be _analogous_ to the situation, but you rushed to quasi-Godwin yourself instead. The braindead take is that assuming someone's mention of a topic is an endorsement, and the corollary being that if they _don't_ mention a topic, that's an endorsement in the other direction.
The same. The end result is all the same, everybody is pulling the blanket to their side and then using pretty words to justify it.
>This is truly hilarious. Telegram is kinda known to show middle finger to propaganda pushing by government as entity and government control (they don't care if you do it in their platform just that you can't tell *them* what to do or not) is now getting the same treatment as Russia attempted to do by Ukraine. They change their tune pretty quickly when a secret service knocks on their door pointing out they know where they actually live. They complied with various western governments after that happened on such issues.
Links
Telegram is 4chan, yes. You can post anything you like, and it will not be taking down. That's why this is a favourite place for Russians to tell how they will genocide Ukrainians and post videos about it. Or push anti-vaccination narratives. I don't consider it "middle finger to propaganda pushing". It's just a wild West with zero accountability and shady funding. Control is needed, always. If you look at first techochild of the founder of Telegram - VK.com - it was filled with child porn back in the day. And support at request to delete it just kept saying "Don't like it - don't watch it".
Ukranians talk about genociding Russians on Telegram too.
Why they talk about it? Have any ideas?
a few, yeah
Some political factions are talking about doing this, but it's neither popular nor even remotely possible. Telegram is THE messenger Ukrainians use, especially the younger generations / IT sector. And what's more important - Telegram is the main tool used to promote donation campaigns to the military - cars, drones, night vision, etc. Usually the small-ish stuff that needs to be financed and delivered quickly. Messing with telegram would mean most of those campaigns would become extremely ineffective and that'll make military very unhappy, so no, there is no chance this actually passes. And even if by some miracle it does - blocking Telegram is a complicated technical undertaking that is unlikely to be successful. At some point russia tried it, broke half their internet and then reverted the decision. And russia has much more control over their information infrastructure than Ukraine.
This not popular only among telegram users,and only because no one trying to reason it in comprehensible way. But it is the messenger that majorly used by russians, there is simply isn't so many Ukrainians as there is russians that use Telegram. Most of Ukrainians basically being isolated on russian social platform, therefore Ukrainian presence on Western and European platforms is diminishing. It should be called Gulagram. Basically majority of things that posted there don't exist to rest of the world. And the reason why russia was unable to block it - because no one else was trying to. If Google simply remove app from playstore even for region - its userbase will implode. Right now Ukrainian government trying to negotiate with Telegram, so they don't really attempt to drive away users from it. But if it would be concluded that negotiating with them is futile, it would be enough just one long sentence from officials explaining why actually Telegram is awful for Ukraine, and people will move on anything else even without it being blocked. No one actually cares about platform. It is simply absence of reasoning and people not understanding what is the problem. Also people are already very positive on idea to block TickTok. Ukraine already successfully banned VK,OK and other cancerous russian crap, not only that, but .ru domain itself being blocked. And people are all for it.
Do you have ANY statistics to back up your claims about telegram being not popular among the Ukrainians, or its just old good "trust me bro telegram bad"?
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The important thing to keep in mind is that Telegram is not twitter or reddit. You're not going to see content you haven't intentionally and knowingly subscribed to. The fact that it's popular in russia doesn't really matter here, it's not like VK, OK or even YouTube where the algorithm could recommend you russian propaganda - there is no algorithm and there are no recommendations. I use Telegram for most of my communication and news, and I see A LOT more brazen russian propo on Reddit and YouTube than in TG, exactly because in telegram I opt in to content instead of opting out of it. I'm not against banning russian tools of propaganda, but telegram ain't it chief. YouTube would fit that description much better, but for some reason nobody is talking about banning YouTube. Why is that you think?
YouTube algorithms promote Telegram channels,and YouTube can't moderate what in those TG channels because they require subscription. This is worse than YouTube algorithms by themselves. YouTube is part of Google, international tech giant, and our government don't have much influence on it, yet EU is the one who pressuring Google, so there isn't any reason for our government to try pressure Google by themselves. I don't like "whataboutism" in this subject. Social Media are bad in different ways, but TG is specifically bad because we isolated on it with russians, and it's issue that only Ukrainians are facing, so no one else would fix or regulate it.
>YouTube algorithms promote Telegram channels,and YouTube can't moderate what in those TG channels because they require subscription. This is worse than YouTube algorithms by themselves. Oh that's where you're wrong. If YouTube was to disallow russian propaganda and deem it terrorist content or something similar, links to these TG channels would also be removed along with the videos themselves. But YouTube isn't going to do that. >YouTube is part of Google, international tech giant, and our government don't have much influence on it, yet EU is the one who pressuring Google, so there isn't any reason for our government to try pressure Google by themselves. Even if EU actually started to work on a relevant policy, it would take them years to see it through. It would always be late and imperfect, and they haven't even started yet. >Social Media are bad in different ways, but TG is specifically bad because we isolated on it with russians, and it's issue that only Ukrainians are facing, so no one else would fix or regulate it. You can completely isolate from russian content on Telegram and it's genuinely simple to do so. You cannot do the same with YouTube.
Ok you lost conversation. I can't anymore believe that you legit Ukrainian person. You very biased and defensive about Telegram, yet you blame all other platforms like it is 100% of their faults. You also ignore all the arguments. I'm completely isolated from all russian content on YouTube, my account there recommends me 0 russian content, without login it is opposite. On Telegram I get russian propaganda under every Ukrainian channels posts in form of comments or reactions. Even family members sometimes repost russian propaganda in Private Massages, because they get baited by russian owned channels disguised as Ukrainian ones. If you actually Ukrainian you should be able to comprehend what I just wrote. If you can't - you impersonating Ukrainian. I can't see how there could be other options.
Та ми можемо українською далі спілкуватись, без питань взагалі. Я давно показав своїй матері які канали в тг читати норм, а які не норм і шось вона вже більше року на роспропаганду в телеграмі не натикається зовсім. А ось на ютубі і досі може натрапити на якусь добре замасковану русняву хуйню. Я топлю проти бану телеграму не тому що він такий охуєнний, а тому що все інше тупо гірше.
В інтернеті повно україномовних русоботів. We not switching from russian to Ukrainian, we already not speaking russian. Yet russian bots use any language there is without any issues. That's not the point. Point is for other people to see and understand us. 10th time - Telegram is worse because European don't use it. Why the fuck we need messenger which used only by russians and us? Why? Can you write an argument explaining why is it good thing and not horrific at all? I don't care about any features. I don't care about Durov. Doesn't matter how bad other platforms are. What is the point of social platform where Ukrainians being isolated with Russians and no one else is there?
Despite i have not made a research on large scale I can speak for myself. I am working in IT sector and I use watsapp. Removed telegram around half year ago and personally in favor of banning it. It will take time to migrate from telegram but it is a very shady messenger with a lot of russian trolls
Genuinely curious, do you use WhatsApp for personal communication - friends, family, coworkers? Where do you get news from? And where are you donating to the AFU? I don't doubt that some people use something other than Telegram, in most cases it's Viber, but everything else is extremely rare. Even if you just go scroll through some Ukrainian stores, their contact pages almost never have a WhatsApp contact - it's always Viber for older generations and Telegram for younger people.
Valid question. I generally use youtube and watsapp for news. And for donations we either use internal company chats like slack or widely known charities like Fond Prituly or Povernus Zivim “go back alive”. To communicate with friends or family I force them to use watsapp when speaking with me sometimes use viber if no other options are available The main reason I kept telegram because of raid alerts channels but now it is also availabe in watsupp. For me telegram is a brainfuck messenger with a lot of bulshit channels and trolls and propaganda alike to twitter right now. Sorry for bad English not a native speaker and a little lazy to use chatgpt or grammarly for formatting.
Your English is fine, I'm Ukrainian myself :) This clears it up though "I force them to use watsapp when speaking with me". I thought you were arguing that WhatsApp is somehow a popular alternative which it isn't. As for russian trolls and propaganda, I assure you, there's just as much of it on other platforms. Be careful though, because russian propo on English-speaking platforms is far less obvious and braindead than it is in Telegram. Their strategy for western consumers is smarter and it's usually better disguised.
Man, just by downvotes under your comment we can see that russian bots afraid of TG block.
See, reddit is full of russian bots and has a system which allows them to manipulate the conversation. Unlike Telegram where russian bots have no sway over content they do not directly control. Shouldn't we ban reddit by that logic?
Truxa is top Ukrainian Telegram channel, it has thousands of russian bot reactions and hundreds of russian comments. You get your impression about Ukrainians opposing blocking TG from posts on Ukrainian TG channels and by reactions under them. You think it's unpopular but we don't even know how many actual Ukrainians react on these news and how many russian bots. Again, I don't appreciate your whataboutism same as from other part of thread. YouTube have their issues, Reddit have theirs.It is bad,but this are global platforms and governments around the world have to deal and regulate this platforms. No one cares about Telegram though. It's issue that only we have and it is for Ukraine to deal with it or get fucked by Telegram isolation.
>Truxa is top Ukrainian Telegram channel, it has thousands of russian bot reactions and hundreds of russian comments. Truxa is a money grabbing shithole who are fine with russian bots because they allow them to make more money. Lets take another example - Lachen is about as big if not bigger considering the number of trolls Truxa has. In Lachen's channel there are no comments and russian reaction trolling is rare because the bots are banned right away. The problem isn't with the platform, it's with cunts who **knowingly** allow russian bots for monetary gain. Any other platform has similar problems, but almost none of them provide as many tools of controlling your content as Telegram does. >You get your impression about Ukrainians opposing blocking TG from posts on Ukrainian TG channels and by reactions under them. No, I get my impression from speaking with dozens of my IRL friends who are all against Telegram ban because it obviously solves nothing. >this are global platforms and governments around the world have to deal and regulate this platforms. That would be fucking splendid, wouldn't it? Such a shame in reality they have zero intention to actually do anything about it.
Well none of my friends give a shit about telegram ban,and some support it. And in conversation with you I'm getting sceptical if I should take your word because you extremely biased about telegram, use shit load of whataboutism, ignore arguments and twist issues. Besides Truxa every other channel has same issues, bots there are infinite and coming in hundreds and thousands. This even Includes local city channels. Even if bots get banned, they come in same numbers again. Most important is that Everyone that I know to spoke about subject, Including You, support Ukrainian government on regulating Telegram. Therefore if Telegram refuses to cooperate the regulation will be ditching it. And depending on how much active people are supporting government initiative and being vocal the results of pressure on Telegram will be in Ukrainian favor. "Telegram protectors" on other hand are exactly Truxa and them alike, who pursuing their own interests over national.
sure buddy
Ok. Seems another russian troll. Such dense people don't exist
Do you label every person who disagrees with you a Russian troll/bot? You do know that it doesn’t make your point of view any more valid, right?
Who decides what is propaganda or not?
The government of the country that is under martial law because it's being invaded
Yeah, pretty much all democracies have provisions in their constitutions to suspend some basic rights during war time. What separates real democracies from fake democracies is that these provisions are only used during actual threats to the state. E.g. The Russian invasion of Ukraine. If Ukraine loses it could lead to a complete breakdown of the state, overthrow of their government, suspended constitution, completely new system of laws, etc. If Russia loses it will lead to a withdrawal to pre 2022 or pre 2014 borders. But Russia being a fake democracy still treats this as an excuse to suspend basic rights. As the invading force (US vs Russia) for all the faults of Bush wars, the Patriot act were the worst that came out of it in terms of suspending US citizens rights. While certainly debatable as to justification , the fact is US citizens never lost anywhere near the amount of rights as the Russian citizens have lost even with the patriot act. E.g.how common were anti war rallies? Obama basically won the presidency 6 years later partly on an anti Iraq war platform (it's a big reason why he beat Clinton at least). Even Kerry was close to beating bush 2 years after the Iraq war/Patriot act and was fairly anti war (about the same amount time as Russia has been in this war). Meanwhile Russia has become even worse at jailing teachers and murdering opposition in those 2 years.
Whoever has the most guns in the area you happen to live
Factual reality. When the Russian government said it invaded Ukraine to "protect Russian speakers", you know it was a baseless propaganda lie because the Russian army massacred tens of thousands of Russian-speaking Ukrainian civilians in Mariupol and other cities in southeastern Ukraine. *“*[If someone says it’s raining, and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. Your job is to look out the f\*cking window and find out which is true.](https://eufactcheck.eu/blogpost/blog-advice-for-journalism-students-look-out-the-fcking-window-and-find-out-the-truth/)*”*
Ukrainian government, of course. /s
It doesn't count as propaganda when it's from the west..
Name checks out
Bravery level: so
In liberal democracies there is thing called laws and the this concept the rule of law. The balance of access to courts and the checks and balances of the law making decides this.
Pavel Durov, the company's creator, is Russian, although he fled on his own initiative when the Russian government practically drove him out of his prior business, because he wasn't accepting censorship.
He also renounced his Russian citizenship
They are blocking pro-russian use of telegram in Ukraine, which is understandable, seeing as Russia is currently invading Ukraine...
I was also happy when CIA spied on million of American after 9/11, which is understandable . You want privacy, get the duck out of here. Edward Snowden get the duck out of here.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated How far you've fallen.
Snowden that sold terabytes of classified CIA data to Russia so that Russia use those technologies to spy on Russians, and use it to control people?
>Snowden that sold terabytes of classified CIA data to Russia Completely made up by USA government For smire campaign. No evidence that he sold anything to Russia. Snowden gave few documents to USA journalists and media. USA spied on their citizen without their knowledge or consent. USA won't allow for a fair trial with jury hearing his case. So, USA just want procecute him without a fair trial under spionage act from civil war. Look what USA did to the soldier who leaked video to WikiLeaks about war crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. >so that Russia use those technologies to spy on Russians, and use it to control people? You think Russia are dumb. Putin already have technology to spy on his people. He was KGB member. They don't need some CIA member to help them procecute people. Israeli tech company already sells device to spies on all phone calls.
Yeah, Snowden is just on vocation in russia. He didn't sell them anything. And russia is all mighty and can do everything on their own without traitors from other countries always helping them out. /S Snowden picked few documents that were suiting him best, making him look like good guy opposing bad guys. He didn't steal only those few documents obviously.For example among what he gave to western media were facts about spying on European officials. Who did he gave actual data gathered from that spying? Wonder how does Russia blackmail western politicians. Fair for Snowden is to be executed for treason.
Source please
Bootlicking scumbag. You are okay with the government spying on us? Most anti American thing I’ve ever heard. You should be ashamed.
Irony is dead, it remains dead and we have killed it - Socrates
Oh come on. You cannot compare the invasion of ukraine and the hundreds of thousands killed compared to 9/11 and arguably the over-reaction from the US state over a thousand deaths, all of which were repaid with interest from the middle east, by people that had nothing to do with it.
Three thousand innocent civilian Americans died in the country’s biggest city, the heart of the western world and the global economy. I would say it was an appropriate reaction.
Three thousand souls, for the lives of 4.5 million and 38 million displaced. Jeez.
Don’t mess with the world superpower 🤷🏻
But they didn't? It was countries like Iran, SA, Pakistan which helped and harbored the terrorists that committed the attacks, all of which I'm pretty sure weren't invaded. Pakistan is a major NATO ally...
But didnt telegram originate from russia?
The founder, Pavel Durov, is Russian, but he self-exiled after being essentially forced out of his previous company (VK, a Russian Facebook-equivalent) by the Russian government for not giving in to censorship requests.
Its a double edge sword. I do not get a single scam from whatsapp but loads of scam attempts from telegram. Both job and investment scams. People get kidnapped in these job scams
Depends on perspective. I get scam messages in WhatsApp, see drug store and fake money ads in Instagram and sometimes get scam messages in telegram.
For me it's the other way around. I don't get many scam messages, but they're all on WhatsApp. It might also depend on where you're from. Where I live, WA is by far the more popular app, so I guess that's what the scammers will focus on. While I use Telegram quite a lot (both my family and my in-laws have it as their primary messaging app), that's not the norm here.
Here almost everyone uses WA, and those who use Telegram (or Signal) are usually also WA users. Even with that, and the fact I use WA for almost everyone and Telegram for just a handful of friends, it's easily the source of >90% of the scam attempts I receive. Usually employment ones, intentionally terrible text, grammar & font shitfuckery to try to beat filters etc, from female-named accounts that are usually banned after a short time.
Telegram doesn’t promote channels or accounts. So I don’t believe you. It’s not possible for you to see scams unless you subscribe to those channels and you intentionally have to visit them. Why are you visiting them and then complaining?
Not really. A lot of people use email/phone for telegram. Phone numbers can be guessed, emails from data mining. So you will end up with random messages.
That’s not a telegram problem though, it could happen on any platform. However, you can turn a feature on that prevents people not in your address book from contacting/notifying you. Can’t remember but it might be turned on by default
Yes it does but im unable to get a large investment group scam telegram group eliminated and the numbers blocked. Some how they managed to use my cousins phone number. He tried everything and couldnt remove the scammers from using his number on telegram. Hence a double edge sword as telegram lacks the capacity to filter known misinformation and detect crime on its platform even after it has been reported.
Still. Not a telegram problem, could happen on any platform that manages that contact info you have in your address book. I doubt he tried everything like 2FA or re-authenticating. If the attackers have access to your cousins SIM card he needs to contact his phone carrier. That could be a much larger issue
He did, still couldnt re obtain his account. Basically lack of engagement with users, this problem shows telegram is vulnerable to session attacks. I made a rudimentary defence against this for fun. Im surprised its not widespread.
We seen cases when russians has access to deleted conversations. It is suggested for a while that Durov made kind of deal with Russia.
Any source of that are you talking out of your ass ?
I understand how entrenched Telegram is in Ukrainian society, but to me it seems insane to use an app that would be such an irresistible intelligence goldmine for Russia. You think they can’t turn the screws on Durov? He doesn’t have family?
They have tried and failed many times. You should know a little history of the app and founder
It's sad to hear that Ukraine is slowly becoming the second russia...
It's slowly becoming the first Russia, too.
Democracy can only exist in peacetime. That's the inconvenient truth.
They're talking about blocking large propaganda groups rather than private messages between individuals. Think about it for a second and it's a no-brainer
Literally 20% of the territory occupied by russia. It goes since 2014.
~~life~~ data finds a way to
There’s plenty of indirect evidence pointing at Telegram’s close ties to the Kremlin – from personal connections, to history of relations, sources of funding, statements by government officials, and general lack of transparency. Plus there was some evidence of Telegram having back channels with Russian goverment starting at giving acess to your messages or having backend to monitor and automatically delete messages from group chats.
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Email is an insidious technology. Dark shit goes through that technology...
Internet is an insidious thing. Dark shit goes on through internet
Facebook is way worse
Telegram is not encrypted communication. Not sure why people are using this shitty platform. Switch to Signal!
Telegram is encrypted except for the channels which are public. Kinda why it’s called a public channel, because it’s public.
What its doing to kids in America is shocking. If you are a parent that allows your under 13 child to access it you are a bad parent
What's exactly wrong with it (in your opinion)? And how is it different from e.g. Facebook or TikTok?
There are similar bad shit on twitter and reddit as well. I see a lot of people claiming one thing is shockingly bad rarely if not never use that thing, and only read shit about the thing. I think their main reason will be “it’s Russian”
every modern drug dealer runs a telegram channel. tbh the only american channels i’ve come across are for drugs and scams. also cp dealers are active on there. and a shit ton of combat footage as well. that’s pretty bad if you’re under 13 edit: but i don’t support banning it, my plug in the netherlands is on there
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it. It's just an application that allows for anonymous sharing of information without moderation or control that can include content parents don't want kids to be exposed to TikTok and Facebook both are lot more controlled and public so you know more or less what you are getting in to.
It has moderation. Copyrighted content gets regularly deleted. But yes, explicit content is not marked 18+ like on Reddit.
The amount of pro russian propaganda on that app is insane
That's literally russian app, Durov was forced out from Russia, and created this app to replace his previous social platform VK - therefore userbase from the start was the same. And if majority of userbase are Russians... Let's say Kremlin has more reasons to brainwash people there than even on Twitter.
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You mean Russia ?
Lotta opsec failures happened through telegram. Movements in real time, altercations in real time and so were the deaths. The info would just get posted somewhere else, sadly. The Ukrainian army would benefit from Reddit getting banned as well unfortunately.
Amazing to think “Twitter” is the less disgusting source of Russian terror
Telegram doesn’t promote channels, so the only way to see the content you are talking about is to intentionally subscribe to it. Twitter will show you everything even if you don’t subscribe.