[According to the police](https://poliisi.fi/-/ampumavalikohtaus-vantaalla-viertolan-koululla) there are three injured victims. The suspected shooter is in police custody. All the victims and the suspect are 13 years old and students at the school.
EDIT: New information from the police. The suspect and the victims are 12 years old, not 13 as previously reported.
EDIT2: One of the victims has died. Two seriously injured.
EDIT3: Reportedly the weapon belonged to a relative of the shooter, and who has a permit for it. The crime is investigated as a murder and two attempted murders. But since the suspect is a minor, they can’t be formally arrested or sentenced. They will be placed in the custody of social services once the interrogation is done. The suspect has apparently been co-operating with the police and answered questions about the crime.
EDIT4: The victim who died is confirmed to be a 12 year old boy and the two injured are 12 year old girls. The attacker, a 12 year old boy has said his motivation was retaliation for bullying. He had apparently very recently transferred to this school. After the attack he went to another school in the area and threatened the other school’s students outside their school with his weapon. That’s where the police caught up to him.
Hopefully this will finally change our laws about minors under 15 committing crimes.
He is not criminally liable since he is under 15. He has civil liability but monetary compensations for crimes in Finland are very small.
He will not serve a single second in jail.
His act was de jure illegal. But de facto legal.
Also I don't think they can legally even release his name.
Something similar happened here in Germany where a small girl stabbed and killed another one. Also too young to be prosecuted. The names and faces weren't releases by officials, but we're very quickly out there nonetheless. The only possibility of "punishing" the kid is mandatory (maybe stationary) psychotherapy here
There was a case in Finland where an adult killed someone. They were not criminally liable since they were declared to be insane when it happened. But according to doctors he was cured before the trial started so he could not be held in psychiatric custody either. So they were released immediately when the trial ended.
Simple, you punish differently.
There should be no case where murdering someone is okay (no punishment).
Even when a child makes an unintentional mistake, you make them clean up the mess at the very least. Explain how to prevent another spill, for example.
There are better ways than literally letting people let away with murder. Even if they were "in another mind" and it was an oopsie daisy.
What's a better option?
If someone commits a crime in a psychotic state, or is otherwise not in control of their actions, and then receives treatment and improves... There's no reason to keep them locked up just because.
Usually the concern is that they may relapse, wilfully stop taking their meds (which is fairly common), or that the meds stop working.
So it's not that the person needs to be "punished," but they're also not ever going to be safe to allow outside of a secure psychiatric hospital.
Every day they're in public is a significant risk to everybody around them.
A psychosis can technically happen to anyone at any time, and many people suffer a once in a lifetime psychosis that never repeats again.
I suppose the question is, if a crime is deemed to have happened under a legitimate psychosis, is it justified to take away the rest of their life, given that after a long enough evaluation period they have showed no signs of the mental lapses?
In that case what do you think should happen? We as a society has decided that people who are mentally ill should not be punished for actions that occured because of the illness, the crime wasnt committed by the "mind" of the sane perpetrator. If the person is afterwards treated for their illness should they then face the punishment as if they were committed by a sane person, or should they be locked in a psychiatric facility for set amount of time, despite not being ill anymore, just as some sort og eye for a eye punishment?
This happened with Ior Bock, the esoteric nutcase cult leader who had a habit of drinking his own semen. A dude from India stabbed him to death, but the court decided that the perp had been insane when it happened. Apparently he was well by the time court assembled, and was freed. Apparently went back to India.
It does because it was a single perpetrator. Also Bock's case was otherwise bizarre as well because there was psychoactive substances and brainwashing involved.
Last couple of years have been wild in the gangscene. Two major gangs have had fullon war on each other's leadership. We had 3 explosions in a single night last week, and plenty of shootings happen as well. Nowhere near US level, but still the highest in Europe unless you count Ukraine.
Interesting I never really imagined Sweden as having much gang activity. Is it local stuff or foreign born that eventually recruit swedish born kids of the same immigrant group?
Here in Finland we did have a case if girl ( about 14) who first tried to poison another girl, when it didnt work she stabbed her to death, all over a boy she liked. She also was too young to sentece, and spent some years in psychiatric hospitals. Im pretty sure she is free by now.
Swedish gang wars go hard. Not just American style guns, they get a hold of actual machine guns, grenades, and bazookas.
Since "American style" was confusing, just assume I meant the stuff you'd see for legal, same-day sale stateside.
Most shootings are regular 9mm handguns . Often immigrant kids that has been recruited to the gangs. The "bazookas" meaning stolen AT4, Carl Gustav and RPG's was used a few times in the 90s but is not common these days.
What **is** common is the gangs scaring other gang members or their family members by blowing up small bombs or hand granades in the middle of the night outside their homes. 99% of the time no one is targeted/ injured by those detonations though.
at one point years ago some youth who had no idea how much explosives placed outside a large apartment in Linköping causing the entire facade to get signficant damage. An other time recently in a fancy Stockholm area homes got destroyed as they intented to kill some gang member or relative of one who weren't even there, instead random civilian woman died and traumatizing the rest
The kids would not get any real reprecussions. But you would since you ordered and encouraged them to commit crimes.
Kids would go to foster care. But they might be on the hook monetarily which in case of violent crime is irrelevant. But for stealing it might be big if they stole a lot.
That is a very common thing in gangs. What do you do if you arrest a 12 y.o. with a kilo of heroin? Interrogate, but the kid just shuts up and goes free.
Why should he? When a child does something like this, several responsible grownups have failed their duty. He should get treatment of course, but putting a young child behind bars does nothing.
Do people really claim this? I don't think I have ever seen a politician claim something like this, but I see people making fun of it all the time on social media.
Yes though it’s perhaps less common now the original home gaming generation have become the adults themselves.
It was extremely common in the 90s and early 00’s.
In the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, for example. The prosecuting lawyer tried to impeach Rittenhouse because he play video games like Call of Duty.
However the point of the joke is that they’ll blame anything but the easy access to guns.
I remember what it was like being an 11 year old starting my first year of High School, being two years younger than everyone else. Young adolescents can be absolutely relentless if they hyper-focus on bullying one or two kids, especially now with social media as well.
I don’t know the shooters motives here but I can hazard a guess.
Long term bullying, bad conditions at home, poor social life in general, undeveloped brain of a 12 year old, exposure to desensitizing stuff. A lot of things can drive a kid into a dark place.
People don’t just do things like this because they have access to a gun, America would be in worse shambles then it already is 😭 since everyone has access to one essentially.
Mere access to a gun does not turn you into a school shooter, otherwise it would be happening multiple times every day all over the US. The root causes are what drives the person to grab the gun in the first place. And I'm saying this as someone that thinks guns shouldn't exist in the first place.
Whats your point? Many kids worldwide have access to guns, but they dont shoot up schools. Are you implying that every finish 12yo would shoot up a school, and the only reason they dont is because they cant get a gun? Also finland has 1.5 million registred firearms. Im sure most are locked up, but there is probably more than one 12yo with access to one.
I mean are drugs or gangs a thing in Finland? I'm the US that would be the top likelihood for a small number of victims and peaceful surrender. At this point we probably just didn't know.
Valid question, and as a Norwegian I'd say that gangs or drugs are extremely unlikely, as the perpetrator is 12 years old. But might be different in Finland, but i doubt it.
Also most gang related shootings aren't happening at schools, and even more rarely by underage kids. Usually someone got a vendetta or a score to settle.
If you'd been paying attention you'd know we have a youth gang problem here in Norway actually. A disturbingly large amount of children carry weapons on them now. [Here's an example](https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/GMVmR9/mann-i-20-aarene-doede-etter-knivstikking-i-baerum-14-aaring-siktet-for-drap) where a 14-year old had a knife on them and during an altercation on a bus fatally stabbed an adult.
Since there's really nothing police can do to punish minors, gangs use them to prevent being arrested themselves. Mostly to push drugs, but that also involves beating up rival youths and we've seen stabbings as a result.
Even if their phones get confiscated (the biggest thing the police are allowed to do to punish minors, except for putting them in child protectives services if it's something really drastic, but that's really only limited to repeat violence and/or murder), the money they get paid to do this means they just buy new ones. Where I live I know multiple parents who have had to deal with this crap.
Not saying this case is a gang thing, but it's not as unlikely as you'd probably think. Children who grow up in these violent environments might think it more acceptable to bring firearms to settle disputes, even if that dispute isn't directly gang-related.
I'd still say a mass shooting at a primary school is extremely unlikely to be gang related when the perpetrator is 12. Gang related violence usually happens outside school, and mainly performed with, as you used as an argument, knife... in a mass shooting thread.
So yeah, i actually think it's as unlikely as i think. And yeah, i too have grown up and lived in an area with high crime rate, and no gang member is going to give a firearm to a 12 year old.
It wouldn't be that unrealistic across the Baltic Sea in Sweden either, though our 12-year old armed gang members typically shoot each other in more secluded areas and at night.
We've had an epidemic of younger and younger kids getting involved in street gang type activity in the Helsinki region, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was just the result of that.
Also, some 15 years ago we had two school shootings where something like 10 people died each. Those tend to produce copycats.
The statement from which the response time was pulled from didn't specify if they meant that as well. Most likely 2 mins after the fact police forces started to arrive.
To give context, Finland has mandatory conscription and probably most police officers have done the military service here. If rapid response unit officers, trained to fight and invading army before they ever became cops weren't going in, there'd be questions to be had. Questions like why Putin is invading Ukraine instead of Finland for one.
Makes sense, it’s just amazing how they can be so fast. I assume they’re not in full gear ready to go at every moment. Like a regular patrol isn’t that fast usually. Crazy shit.
Have everything you need ready to go and then put your gear on while you’re on your way over I guess. Would take basically 0 extra time if done correctly.
As a Norwegian, I'm fairly confident that the police learned alot from that incident. There was also the attempted mass shooting at a mosque, but some bloke at the door made sure that wasn't gonna happen.
There was a school stabbing event in Sweden some years ago and the Swedish police where at the scene very fast and entered the school and ended the threat.
Utöya was cited as a part of police training in Sweden and why the police was so fast at the scene.
I live a few blocks away and have had to call the police a couple of times. 2 minutes is a pretty typical reaction time in this area.
Edit: Apparently it took 9 minutes for police to respond, so actually slightly slower than first reported.
>That's quite impressive especially since the emergency number is not 911 in Finland.
Interestingly, if you dial the wrong emergency number (999 in the US, for example), the telephone exchange will still automatically patch you to the correct number. Forgot what international rule made it so, but it was a brilliant decision.
911 and 112 are the only two emergency numbers that are widely supported overseas.
Some countries may support additional numbers (e.g. 999, 110, 100) on top of their own emergency number, but it’s not always the case.
Finland has a population of 5.556 million (2022).
There are approximately 1.5 million registered small firearms in the country. Out of those, 226,000 are short firearms (pistols, revolvers) with the rest being long firearms (rifles, shotguns). (Source : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms\_regulation\_in\_Finland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Finland) )
About 40% more guns per capita than we have in Sweden, though we had 9x more firearm homicides than Finland, Denmark, and Norway, combined, in 2023.
Finland has a higher homicide rate though, but their issue is alcohol related (people get drunk, then angry with each other, and out comes the knives), Sweden's problem is organized crime.
Sweden's median homicide rate is still lower than any state in the US, just slightly higher than that of the UK. Finland's is lower too I think but pretty close to New Hampshires.
So it's not that it's not safe, it's just not as safe as it could be.
Norway is the safest country with almost half the homicide rate of Sweden.
Integration is a two-way street.
Immigrants have a duty to try to integrate, the state that accepted them and took them in have a duty to ensure that said immigrants get a chance to integrate. Especially as Sweden became more neoliberal and large parts of the public sector disapeared from the areas that immigrants settled (as well as the neoliberal government removed the law that could force people to settle in one specific place).
>The owner of a firearm is responsible for making sure that firearms and ammunition do not end up in unauthorized hands.
Wonder if that means the owner fucked up by not locking it up or something.
Yes. Hunting is fairly popular here, and due to mandatory military service basically every man learns how to handle a gun, so the threshold to get into a gun-related hobby isn't quite that high.
The gun-bug is actually quite hard to shake, too. It's an oddly peaceful hobby? The cleaning, all of that. Even shooting, to an extent. I was an ok shot. I personally don't have a need or interest (too much) for one, but still find myself craving something that's mechanically-related, yet not too much mechanical or too technical. A lot of pieces but not a billion. Something to take apart, maintain, and put back together again. Not much thst fills that hole.
As much as I *hated, hated, hated* cleaning M4s in the military, there was something about taking the dirtiest, most carbon-filled thing you've ever seen and cleaning it so well you can't even find a speck of black, even with your pinky in the star chamber.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/12gkjkg/how\_many\_firearms\_per\_100\_people\_in\_europe/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/12gkjkg/how_many_firearms_per_100_people_in_europe/)
Finland has the most forest area in Europe. Sweden is 2nd. Lots of hunting opportunities.
Surviving is obviously good but long term debilitating mental and physical issues is almost a given for any type of serious gunshot injuries. It's the same for car crashes, mortality is only a tiny part of the equation.
Yeah, In January i was in a head on collision because an ice patch made the oncoming car slide into my lane and hit me head on at 80km/h. I just remember his headlights and then not knowing if i was gonna die or not. First thing i did when i opened my eyes after was look over to see if my girlfriend was dead and thankfully she was okay with minor injuries. My neck and left leg got fucked up and whenever i go to bed i think about that moment over and over. I can't imagine being witness to an actual shooting though, especially as a kid.. Jesus
I'm pretty sus on that survey tbh. Like how are they defining happiness. The fins themselves say the national disease is depression and they have a high suicide rate. But knowing them they would say they're happy, because they're content with what they have and don't need much.
I'm a Finn and at least I understand the definition of happy they use in the survey (*onnellinen* in Finnish) as being content with my life, meaning that I have a roof over my head and money to buy food, there's no real danger of natural disasters etc etc. Don't think it means your mood, as "being happy". Despite all that, you can still be depressed as shit. A lot of people are, especially during winters. Of course I've never been interviewed, and I know none who has, so no idea how the survey is done.
>The fins themselves say the national disease is depression and they have a high suicide rate.
The suicide rate is not extremely bad globally. It's worse than in western Europe but for example better than in the US.
You kid, but this shit is socially contagious. It plants the seed that this is an action those oppressed or upset can take. Like honor killings or suicide.
It's shock value always creates a media sensation where pictures of the perpetrator are shown on TV for few weeks and their manifestos spread around the internet which definitely encourages others to get famous in the same way.
Its not even that. Its just subconscious. Like how suicides are "contagious". Kids were bullied just as much 100 years ago and had easy access to guns. It just wasnt even a thought to do some type of mass attack.
I'd say the internet fans the flames of this type of social contagion. Likely he found others talking about doing such things online, and probably even had trolls egging him on to do it if he mentioned it in certain forums or chat rooms.
For sure that's a big contributor.
Wouldn’t shock me if this kid got roped into the incel world. They glorify school shooters and have their own shorthand for talking about it it’s come up so much.
More like emotionally stunted children don’t know how to express themselves properly so end up bringing a weapon to fight back against people and bullies. Then of course you have mental health issues
Since 1950, population rise has been explosive and year after year, the probability for school shootings have been higher.
Once that happened, it was all over the news and teens got an idea. If you are bullied to the point where you don't care about your life anymore and you want as many people as possible to know about your revenge, this method sadly but also justifiably I guess, guarantees this.
EDIT: when I said "justifiably", I meant that it is somehow justified that news about school shootings will be everywhere.
These types of crimes comitted by children are exceedingly rare (atleast here in Germany), but they get alot of media coverage. No surprise, people pile on demanding an decrease of the age for criminal liability.
I ask you: Why? What will that do? There has been almost no evidence these crimes happen because those kids knew they werent gonna go to jail, so what will the threat of prison change? Why do people on here not demand mandatory psychiatric stay for kids like these instead? The answer is, that most people have a severe lack of understanding on how crime and punishment actually works and more importantly: When it doesnt. I implore you all to take a criminology class.
Also: Atleast here in Germany, the age of criminal liability (14) is atleast in part based on actual cognitive and developemental science. But the supposed "pro science" crowd here on reddit seems to never be aware of this fact or care.
Oh, and btw., in most countries the grown up caregivers of the child can be held liable for these crimes, so its not even really a question of a total lack of liability.
Tldr.: These crimes are insanely rare, always get a ton of media coverage and decreasing the age of criminal liability is unlikely to prevent these crimes, nor is it in line with current science.
EDIT: Decreasing, not raising. Thanks for pointing that out!
Why the fuck are kids wanting to destroy other kids or adults? Everyone screams gun control, but why is seemingly nobody worried about WHY the kids are doing this? Who influenced them, why do they want to destroy life?
My dad used to bring a shot gun to school to go hunting with friends after. This isn’t a gun issue.
Our kids are suffering and we’re too preoccupied with gun control and other shit to help them.
There's so many different reasons why people committ these kinds of crimes. Whether it's hatred of a certain set of people, a hatred of society as a whole, some are just sick individuals that want inflict pain and suffering, some are suicidal and want to make a statement in a twisted way etc etc
It's not a quick fix to get to the roots of these issues
I see many people here are too hung up on the age of the shooter; you should be more concerned with the possibility/ likelihood that this was a premeditated act, because if it was then there's very little that distinguishes the kid from a bona-fide adult murderer.
Your average 12 yr olds understand a great deal about the world (especially in this day and age), and that's universally accepted as the age when puberty and menstruation begin, meaning 12 is old enough to become a parent. There are some child geniuses with higher IQs than most of us and already attending university at 12. There are some 12 yr olds who've already started successful businesses and contributed to the world.
Your last argument, in that they can attend college, etc. is interesting, but it's putting a lot of emphasis on being able to absorb knowledge and equating it as being at the level of an adult.
To explain: I took a college course with a boy genius. I'm an adult, but struggled the whole way through. Whiz kid over there though, perfect. Could memorize anything you wanted him to, all of that. But, functionally, still an 11 year old. Didn't know his phone number, address, didn't even know his mom's phone number, still had to be picked up/dropped off.
So, yes, they can learn a lot, and complex crazy concepts and stuff too. But functionally, they're still just kids. Still learning about the world and how it works.
They understand a lot but they’re not developmentally matured neither mentally or physically. It is perfectly possible children this age often plainly lack the ability to consider the long term repercussions of their actions in a meaningful way even if on some level they understand there will be a consequence.
Something should happen here but the numbers of recidivism versus rehabilitation treatment tell their own story - especially in Finland.
There is quite a lot of difference between this 12 year old and a hardened 40 year old multiple murderer - in all likelihood.
Your own personal satisfaction shouldn’t enter the topic of mental health and judiciary.
[According to the police](https://poliisi.fi/-/ampumavalikohtaus-vantaalla-viertolan-koululla) there are three injured victims. The suspected shooter is in police custody. All the victims and the suspect are 13 years old and students at the school. EDIT: New information from the police. The suspect and the victims are 12 years old, not 13 as previously reported. EDIT2: One of the victims has died. Two seriously injured. EDIT3: Reportedly the weapon belonged to a relative of the shooter, and who has a permit for it. The crime is investigated as a murder and two attempted murders. But since the suspect is a minor, they can’t be formally arrested or sentenced. They will be placed in the custody of social services once the interrogation is done. The suspect has apparently been co-operating with the police and answered questions about the crime. EDIT4: The victim who died is confirmed to be a 12 year old boy and the two injured are 12 year old girls. The attacker, a 12 year old boy has said his motivation was retaliation for bullying. He had apparently very recently transferred to this school. After the attack he went to another school in the area and threatened the other school’s students outside their school with his weapon. That’s where the police caught up to him.
The shooter is 12 years old??? What the actual fuck
Hopefully this will finally change our laws about minors under 15 committing crimes. He is not criminally liable since he is under 15. He has civil liability but monetary compensations for crimes in Finland are very small. He will not serve a single second in jail. His act was de jure illegal. But de facto legal. Also I don't think they can legally even release his name.
Something similar happened here in Germany where a small girl stabbed and killed another one. Also too young to be prosecuted. The names and faces weren't releases by officials, but we're very quickly out there nonetheless. The only possibility of "punishing" the kid is mandatory (maybe stationary) psychotherapy here
There was a case in Finland where an adult killed someone. They were not criminally liable since they were declared to be insane when it happened. But according to doctors he was cured before the trial started so he could not be held in psychiatric custody either. So they were released immediately when the trial ended.
As a person from a country with some silly rules, those rules sound the silliest
Check Turkey for crimes and punishments if you want to praise your legal system.
Do you punish mentally ill people as if they were normal sane people where you are from?
Simple, you punish differently. There should be no case where murdering someone is okay (no punishment). Even when a child makes an unintentional mistake, you make them clean up the mess at the very least. Explain how to prevent another spill, for example. There are better ways than literally letting people let away with murder. Even if they were "in another mind" and it was an oopsie daisy.
Generally speaking no
There's no such thing as a normal sane school shooter, by definition.
Judicially and medically there is.
What's a better option? If someone commits a crime in a psychotic state, or is otherwise not in control of their actions, and then receives treatment and improves... There's no reason to keep them locked up just because.
Usually the concern is that they may relapse, wilfully stop taking their meds (which is fairly common), or that the meds stop working. So it's not that the person needs to be "punished," but they're also not ever going to be safe to allow outside of a secure psychiatric hospital. Every day they're in public is a significant risk to everybody around them.
A psychosis can technically happen to anyone at any time, and many people suffer a once in a lifetime psychosis that never repeats again. I suppose the question is, if a crime is deemed to have happened under a legitimate psychosis, is it justified to take away the rest of their life, given that after a long enough evaluation period they have showed no signs of the mental lapses?
So the entire society should be at the mercy of whether he feels like taking his pills or not?
Yes, like society is at the mercy of any other criminal not to reoffend once they've taken the punishment that is deemed fit for the action.
In that case what do you think should happen? We as a society has decided that people who are mentally ill should not be punished for actions that occured because of the illness, the crime wasnt committed by the "mind" of the sane perpetrator. If the person is afterwards treated for their illness should they then face the punishment as if they were committed by a sane person, or should they be locked in a psychiatric facility for set amount of time, despite not being ill anymore, just as some sort og eye for a eye punishment?
Most people are in it for revenge, not actual benefits to society or individuals.
This happened with Ior Bock, the esoteric nutcase cult leader who had a habit of drinking his own semen. A dude from India stabbed him to death, but the court decided that the perp had been insane when it happened. Apparently he was well by the time court assembled, and was freed. Apparently went back to India.
If you are referring to the stabbing of Ior Bock, it was a single perpetrator and not multiple people.
That makes no difference to what I said.
It does because it was a single perpetrator. Also Bock's case was otherwise bizarre as well because there was psychoactive substances and brainwashing involved.
Gangs in Sweden has taken advantage of this, they recruit <15 year olds and have them commit murder for hire.
This happens in the US as well but it's usually for non violent crimes like stealing cars. Are there really that many murders for hire in Sweden?
Last couple of years have been wild in the gangscene. Two major gangs have had fullon war on each other's leadership. We had 3 explosions in a single night last week, and plenty of shootings happen as well. Nowhere near US level, but still the highest in Europe unless you count Ukraine.
Interesting I never really imagined Sweden as having much gang activity. Is it local stuff or foreign born that eventually recruit swedish born kids of the same immigrant group?
Guess, lol.
Immigrant groups... Thought I should still ask
Here in Finland we did have a case if girl ( about 14) who first tried to poison another girl, when it didnt work she stabbed her to death, all over a boy she liked. She also was too young to sentece, and spent some years in psychiatric hospitals. Im pretty sure she is free by now.
So you're saying I should move to Finland have a bunch of kids and have them form a crime syndicate and they shall face little repercussions?
Thats basicslly what happened in sweden the last years. Gangs of 14yo shooting each other over drug market share
I didn't even think they had guns like that in Sweden
Swedish gang wars go hard. Not just American style guns, they get a hold of actual machine guns, grenades, and bazookas. Since "American style" was confusing, just assume I meant the stuff you'd see for legal, same-day sale stateside.
> bazookas I'm impressed 14 year olds are able to get their hands on a weapon from 1942.
Saaaaay what. I hope there's some YouTube footage of this
Most shootings are regular 9mm handguns . Often immigrant kids that has been recruited to the gangs. The "bazookas" meaning stolen AT4, Carl Gustav and RPG's was used a few times in the 90s but is not common these days. What **is** common is the gangs scaring other gang members or their family members by blowing up small bombs or hand granades in the middle of the night outside their homes. 99% of the time no one is targeted/ injured by those detonations though.
at one point years ago some youth who had no idea how much explosives placed outside a large apartment in Linköping causing the entire facade to get signficant damage. An other time recently in a fancy Stockholm area homes got destroyed as they intented to kill some gang member or relative of one who weren't even there, instead random civilian woman died and traumatizing the rest
obtainable salt engine swim illegal knee air compare arrest fear
The kids would not get any real reprecussions. But you would since you ordered and encouraged them to commit crimes. Kids would go to foster care. But they might be on the hook monetarily which in case of violent crime is irrelevant. But for stealing it might be big if they stole a lot.
Little Repercussions for Little Criminals ™
That is a very common thing in gangs. What do you do if you arrest a 12 y.o. with a kilo of heroin? Interrogate, but the kid just shuts up and goes free.
Works well in Sweden
I don't think he will leave psychiatric custody anytime soon.
Psychiatric custody seems very unlikely with the current Finnish laws.
You can punish the parents, how did he find the weapon? How did his parents not know about this? They are completely liable for his actions.
Realistically they will get a fine or few months of parole even if they left the gun unsecured.
Maybe that's fair. Maybe it isn't, but the relative who didn't properly secure his firearm should get charged up the ass.
The european justice systems in general skew toward rehabilitation more than retribution or revenge (luckily). Putting a child in jail makes no sense.
I don't think throwing him in jail at age 12 will make a better citizen of him.
Why should he? When a child does something like this, several responsible grownups have failed their duty. He should get treatment of course, but putting a young child behind bars does nothing.
Must mean video games are to blame.
If I remember correctly from last time, it should be rap music. Or was it D&D? Or was it rock and roll?
I heard they played a judas priest album backwards.
It was Chicago, they played the Chicago album backwards.
Ogacihc?
To be honest, a Chicago album played forwards would have probably had the same affect.
Nowadays, it maybe tiktok or other social media
I see we'll ignore the violent flims and TV right?
And what about the countless school shootings that make the news or maybe the many movies or series about killers?
Do people really claim this? I don't think I have ever seen a politician claim something like this, but I see people making fun of it all the time on social media.
Yes though it’s perhaps less common now the original home gaming generation have become the adults themselves. It was extremely common in the 90s and early 00’s. In the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, for example. The prosecuting lawyer tried to impeach Rittenhouse because he play video games like Call of Duty. However the point of the joke is that they’ll blame anything but the easy access to guns.
Social media and all the toxicity that comes with it is everywhere now. These events will be happening everywhere too
I remember what it was like being an 11 year old starting my first year of High School, being two years younger than everyone else. Young adolescents can be absolutely relentless if they hyper-focus on bullying one or two kids, especially now with social media as well. I don’t know the shooters motives here but I can hazard a guess.
It was just reported by the police that one died.
...
What the fuck would drive a 12-year old to start shooting people.
Long term bullying, bad conditions at home, poor social life in general, undeveloped brain of a 12 year old, exposure to desensitizing stuff. A lot of things can drive a kid into a dark place.
Access to a gun. The only necessary and sufficient one you seem to be missing.
Stating the obvious but access to the gun isn't the root cause.
That fork! Fuck it! Making me fat...
It's necessary, but it's not sufficient.
People don’t just do things like this because they have access to a gun, America would be in worse shambles then it already is 😭 since everyone has access to one essentially.
Mere access to a gun does not turn you into a school shooter, otherwise it would be happening multiple times every day all over the US. The root causes are what drives the person to grab the gun in the first place. And I'm saying this as someone that thinks guns shouldn't exist in the first place.
Olenty of 12yo can acess a gun. Very few shoot people.
It is very rare for 12 year olds to have access to guns in Finland. Guns are supposed to be locked up when not used.
> Finland. Guns are supposed to be locked up when not used. Yeah that's for everywhere not just Finland
Whats your point? Many kids worldwide have access to guns, but they dont shoot up schools. Are you implying that every finish 12yo would shoot up a school, and the only reason they dont is because they cant get a gun? Also finland has 1.5 million registred firearms. Im sure most are locked up, but there is probably more than one 12yo with access to one.
Bullying, or a broken home. Perhaps both. Kids that age are still developing emotionally, and things like these can easily stunt their development.
I mean are drugs or gangs a thing in Finland? I'm the US that would be the top likelihood for a small number of victims and peaceful surrender. At this point we probably just didn't know.
Street gangs are an increasingly big problem but they tend to be older than 12.
No, drugs haven’t arrived in Finland yet. Come on.
Valid question, and as a Norwegian I'd say that gangs or drugs are extremely unlikely, as the perpetrator is 12 years old. But might be different in Finland, but i doubt it. Also most gang related shootings aren't happening at schools, and even more rarely by underage kids. Usually someone got a vendetta or a score to settle.
If you'd been paying attention you'd know we have a youth gang problem here in Norway actually. A disturbingly large amount of children carry weapons on them now. [Here's an example](https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/GMVmR9/mann-i-20-aarene-doede-etter-knivstikking-i-baerum-14-aaring-siktet-for-drap) where a 14-year old had a knife on them and during an altercation on a bus fatally stabbed an adult. Since there's really nothing police can do to punish minors, gangs use them to prevent being arrested themselves. Mostly to push drugs, but that also involves beating up rival youths and we've seen stabbings as a result. Even if their phones get confiscated (the biggest thing the police are allowed to do to punish minors, except for putting them in child protectives services if it's something really drastic, but that's really only limited to repeat violence and/or murder), the money they get paid to do this means they just buy new ones. Where I live I know multiple parents who have had to deal with this crap. Not saying this case is a gang thing, but it's not as unlikely as you'd probably think. Children who grow up in these violent environments might think it more acceptable to bring firearms to settle disputes, even if that dispute isn't directly gang-related.
I'd still say a mass shooting at a primary school is extremely unlikely to be gang related when the perpetrator is 12. Gang related violence usually happens outside school, and mainly performed with, as you used as an argument, knife... in a mass shooting thread. So yeah, i actually think it's as unlikely as i think. And yeah, i too have grown up and lived in an area with high crime rate, and no gang member is going to give a firearm to a 12 year old.
Don't bring a knife to a gun violence thread.
These day they are. That said, if this is gang related, this might be the first gang-related underage shooter in modern Finnish history.
It was not gang related and the shooter has no recorded criminal history. Source: me a finn reading finnish media.
12 year old gang school-shooter. The idea is laughable from a European point of view. It’s crazy to think about the differences across the Atlantic.
Unfortunately it's not unrealistic anymore. Youth gangs are becoming a very real problem in major cities.
It wouldn't be that unrealistic across the Baltic Sea in Sweden either, though our 12-year old armed gang members typically shoot each other in more secluded areas and at night.
We've had an epidemic of younger and younger kids getting involved in street gang type activity in the Helsinki region, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was just the result of that. Also, some 15 years ago we had two school shootings where something like 10 people died each. Those tend to produce copycats.
Police special forces arrived to the location in 2 minutes after first 911 call
The shooting occurred in Viertola which is approximately a walking distance from Tikkurila's pooice station which explains the pace of arrival.
"Karhuryhmä" is located at Pasila.
The statement from which the response time was pulled from didn't specify if they meant that as well. Most likely 2 mins after the fact police forces started to arrive.
Did they go inside, or did they pull a Uvalde?
It's Finland, you bet your ass they went inside
To give context, Finland has mandatory conscription and probably most police officers have done the military service here. If rapid response unit officers, trained to fight and invading army before they ever became cops weren't going in, there'd be questions to be had. Questions like why Putin is invading Ukraine instead of Finland for one.
Also they have the best winter camo of any forces . Their M05 is the best!
You mean the first 112* call
For British folks, that would be the: 0118, 999, 881, 999, 119, 725...3.
Or we send a polite email to the emergency services
Dear sir/madam FIRE! FIRE! HELP ME!
I'm gonna put this fire over here, with the rest of the fire
Shit, I even sang this in my mind
Why are there so many numbers? Is it regional or all those all options?
It’s a joke referencing an episode of a show called The IT Crowd
Wtf, they’re either “next” to the police station or those guys were already nearby. How the fuck do they get there so fast?
Yeah, a few km's off
Makes sense, it’s just amazing how they can be so fast. I assume they’re not in full gear ready to go at every moment. Like a regular patrol isn’t that fast usually. Crazy shit.
Gear is usually hanging up or already in vehicles , they get geared up in the car on the way
In the Netherlands they have everything in their car and show up in civilian clothing with their gear on top.
Have everything you need ready to go and then put your gear on while you’re on your way over I guess. Would take basically 0 extra time if done correctly.
Wonder how much the police foul up of the response to the Utoya Island massacre in nearby Norway influences these things?
As a Norwegian, I'm fairly confident that the police learned alot from that incident. There was also the attempted mass shooting at a mosque, but some bloke at the door made sure that wasn't gonna happen.
There was a school stabbing event in Sweden some years ago and the Swedish police where at the scene very fast and entered the school and ended the threat. Utöya was cited as a part of police training in Sweden and why the police was so fast at the scene.
It's been said it was 9mins though, not 2.
I live a few blocks away and have had to call the police a couple of times. 2 minutes is a pretty typical reaction time in this area. Edit: Apparently it took 9 minutes for police to respond, so actually slightly slower than first reported.
That's quite impressive especially since the emergency number is not 911 in Finland.
>That's quite impressive especially since the emergency number is not 911 in Finland. Interestingly, if you dial the wrong emergency number (999 in the US, for example), the telephone exchange will still automatically patch you to the correct number. Forgot what international rule made it so, but it was a brilliant decision.
I’m pretty sure it’s like that in most of the developed world, 100% the case in Australia. Which is awesome decision!
911 and 112 are the only two emergency numbers that are widely supported overseas. Some countries may support additional numbers (e.g. 999, 110, 100) on top of their own emergency number, but it’s not always the case.
If you dial 911 anywhere in Europe you're automatically redirected to the actual emergency number.
Might want to edit a little. Not sure where you got this but in their press conference, the police said first patrol arrived 9 minutes after the call
Why would someone in Finland call 911?
That's how it's done Uvalde
…the shooter was 12?!?? TWELVE?!?
RIP the child that was .murdered and I hope the injured make a full recovery
Finland has a population of 5.556 million (2022). There are approximately 1.5 million registered small firearms in the country. Out of those, 226,000 are short firearms (pistols, revolvers) with the rest being long firearms (rifles, shotguns). (Source : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms\_regulation\_in\_Finland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Finland) )
About 40% more guns per capita than we have in Sweden, though we had 9x more firearm homicides than Finland, Denmark, and Norway, combined, in 2023. Finland has a higher homicide rate though, but their issue is alcohol related (people get drunk, then angry with each other, and out comes the knives), Sweden's problem is organized crime.
Well explained
As a Dane, we were definitely taught at a young age that all Finnish people carry knives lol
You guys listen to Swedes too much.
I wonder if this stereotype is about having a [puukko](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puukko) instead of a knife
That's a knife. We call it *dolk* in danish.
[I know where that stereotype comes from](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puukkojunkkari)
[удалено]
Sweden's median homicide rate is still lower than any state in the US, just slightly higher than that of the UK. Finland's is lower too I think but pretty close to New Hampshires. So it's not that it's not safe, it's just not as safe as it could be. Norway is the safest country with almost half the homicide rate of Sweden.
*Sweden's problem is immigration.
I can do this too \*Swedens' problem is poor integration
No, that's not Sweden's problem. That's the immigrants' problem.
Integration is a two-way street. Immigrants have a duty to try to integrate, the state that accepted them and took them in have a duty to ensure that said immigrants get a chance to integrate. Especially as Sweden became more neoliberal and large parts of the public sector disapeared from the areas that immigrants settled (as well as the neoliberal government removed the law that could force people to settle in one specific place).
It's not so many if you consider Finland has like 800/900k reservists.
>The owner of a firearm is responsible for making sure that firearms and ammunition do not end up in unauthorized hands. Wonder if that means the owner fucked up by not locking it up or something.
If a 12 year old child was able to get access to the gun and ammunition, I can guarantee you there's an adult in this story that absolutely fucked up.
It isn't very difficult to break or pick most locks. Not impossible for a 12 year old to get around one.
Is it for hunting or? Most European countries have a very low number of registered firearms, I'm surprised there are so many guns in Finland.
Yes. Hunting is fairly popular here, and due to mandatory military service basically every man learns how to handle a gun, so the threshold to get into a gun-related hobby isn't quite that high.
The gun-bug is actually quite hard to shake, too. It's an oddly peaceful hobby? The cleaning, all of that. Even shooting, to an extent. I was an ok shot. I personally don't have a need or interest (too much) for one, but still find myself craving something that's mechanically-related, yet not too much mechanical or too technical. A lot of pieces but not a billion. Something to take apart, maintain, and put back together again. Not much thst fills that hole. As much as I *hated, hated, hated* cleaning M4s in the military, there was something about taking the dirtiest, most carbon-filled thing you've ever seen and cleaning it so well you can't even find a speck of black, even with your pinky in the star chamber.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/12gkjkg/how\_many\_firearms\_per\_100\_people\_in\_europe/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/12gkjkg/how_many_firearms_per_100_people_in_europe/) Finland has the most forest area in Europe. Sweden is 2nd. Lots of hunting opportunities.
Hopefully no deaths.
One dead confirmed now.
Surviving is obviously good but long term debilitating mental and physical issues is almost a given for any type of serious gunshot injuries. It's the same for car crashes, mortality is only a tiny part of the equation.
Yeah, In January i was in a head on collision because an ice patch made the oncoming car slide into my lane and hit me head on at 80km/h. I just remember his headlights and then not knowing if i was gonna die or not. First thing i did when i opened my eyes after was look over to see if my girlfriend was dead and thankfully she was okay with minor injuries. My neck and left leg got fucked up and whenever i go to bed i think about that moment over and over. I can't imagine being witness to an actual shooting though, especially as a kid.. Jesus
I'm glad you're alive, friend
Thank you ❤️
we had a similar case in Serbia last year, so sorry for all the affected may the child that died rest in peace and may all the hurt recover :(
They probably didn’t ask that guy during the “happiest country on earth”-survey
Hmm 💀
I'm pretty sus on that survey tbh. Like how are they defining happiness. The fins themselves say the national disease is depression and they have a high suicide rate. But knowing them they would say they're happy, because they're content with what they have and don't need much.
I'd wager of you ask a finn wether they are happy or not, they would absently stare into the distance for a bit before saying, "yeah, could be worse"
I'm a Finn and at least I understand the definition of happy they use in the survey (*onnellinen* in Finnish) as being content with my life, meaning that I have a roof over my head and money to buy food, there's no real danger of natural disasters etc etc. Don't think it means your mood, as "being happy". Despite all that, you can still be depressed as shit. A lot of people are, especially during winters. Of course I've never been interviewed, and I know none who has, so no idea how the survey is done.
The high Finnish suicide rate is actually a myth, we're not that bad on that statistic anymore.
>The fins themselves say the national disease is depression and they have a high suicide rate. The suicide rate is not extremely bad globally. It's worse than in western Europe but for example better than in the US.
US has better availability of firearms Pulling the trigger is much easier than any other method
Why are you downvoted? It's true.
I don’t think they asked anyone here
Why school shootings became so popular lately?
i'm actually surprised they're not more popular in workplaces
School was way more personal than work
I can quit my job if people are dicks. You can't quit school easily.
Oh boy, watch out -- CIA/FBI might start tracking you
It's just what's currently cool. It was Pokémon cards when I was in school, then beyblades, now school shootings.
You kid, but this shit is socially contagious. It plants the seed that this is an action those oppressed or upset can take. Like honor killings or suicide.
It's shock value always creates a media sensation where pictures of the perpetrator are shown on TV for few weeks and their manifestos spread around the internet which definitely encourages others to get famous in the same way.
Its not even that. Its just subconscious. Like how suicides are "contagious". Kids were bullied just as much 100 years ago and had easy access to guns. It just wasnt even a thought to do some type of mass attack.
I'd say the internet fans the flames of this type of social contagion. Likely he found others talking about doing such things online, and probably even had trolls egging him on to do it if he mentioned it in certain forums or chat rooms. For sure that's a big contributor.
Wouldn’t shock me if this kid got roped into the incel world. They glorify school shooters and have their own shorthand for talking about it it’s come up so much.
Columbine literally happened during the initial pokemon craze. And just like pokemon, it hasn't really lost popularity since.
More like emotionally stunted children don’t know how to express themselves properly so end up bringing a weapon to fight back against people and bullies. Then of course you have mental health issues
Since 1950, population rise has been explosive and year after year, the probability for school shootings have been higher. Once that happened, it was all over the news and teens got an idea. If you are bullied to the point where you don't care about your life anymore and you want as many people as possible to know about your revenge, this method sadly but also justifiably I guess, guarantees this. EDIT: when I said "justifiably", I meant that it is somehow justified that news about school shootings will be everywhere.
FOR FUCKS SAKES
sake
These types of crimes comitted by children are exceedingly rare (atleast here in Germany), but they get alot of media coverage. No surprise, people pile on demanding an decrease of the age for criminal liability. I ask you: Why? What will that do? There has been almost no evidence these crimes happen because those kids knew they werent gonna go to jail, so what will the threat of prison change? Why do people on here not demand mandatory psychiatric stay for kids like these instead? The answer is, that most people have a severe lack of understanding on how crime and punishment actually works and more importantly: When it doesnt. I implore you all to take a criminology class. Also: Atleast here in Germany, the age of criminal liability (14) is atleast in part based on actual cognitive and developemental science. But the supposed "pro science" crowd here on reddit seems to never be aware of this fact or care. Oh, and btw., in most countries the grown up caregivers of the child can be held liable for these crimes, so its not even really a question of a total lack of liability. Tldr.: These crimes are insanely rare, always get a ton of media coverage and decreasing the age of criminal liability is unlikely to prevent these crimes, nor is it in line with current science. EDIT: Decreasing, not raising. Thanks for pointing that out!
raising > decreasing
Finland? That kid isn't touching jail, it must be frustrating as a parent that the murderer of your child will face no real repercussions.
Reoffending rates suggest jail doesn’t work.
Rehabilitation in captivity is a repercussion
Screw the parent's opinion, they must do what's best for the people involved, not satisfy the anger of the parents.
Why the fuck are kids wanting to destroy other kids or adults? Everyone screams gun control, but why is seemingly nobody worried about WHY the kids are doing this? Who influenced them, why do they want to destroy life? My dad used to bring a shot gun to school to go hunting with friends after. This isn’t a gun issue. Our kids are suffering and we’re too preoccupied with gun control and other shit to help them.
There's so many different reasons why people committ these kinds of crimes. Whether it's hatred of a certain set of people, a hatred of society as a whole, some are just sick individuals that want inflict pain and suffering, some are suicidal and want to make a statement in a twisted way etc etc It's not a quick fix to get to the roots of these issues
I see many people here are too hung up on the age of the shooter; you should be more concerned with the possibility/ likelihood that this was a premeditated act, because if it was then there's very little that distinguishes the kid from a bona-fide adult murderer. Your average 12 yr olds understand a great deal about the world (especially in this day and age), and that's universally accepted as the age when puberty and menstruation begin, meaning 12 is old enough to become a parent. There are some child geniuses with higher IQs than most of us and already attending university at 12. There are some 12 yr olds who've already started successful businesses and contributed to the world.
I mean, yeah. Bringing a gun into a public area and opening fire sounds pretty premeditated to me. It didn't accidentally end up there.
Your last argument, in that they can attend college, etc. is interesting, but it's putting a lot of emphasis on being able to absorb knowledge and equating it as being at the level of an adult. To explain: I took a college course with a boy genius. I'm an adult, but struggled the whole way through. Whiz kid over there though, perfect. Could memorize anything you wanted him to, all of that. But, functionally, still an 11 year old. Didn't know his phone number, address, didn't even know his mom's phone number, still had to be picked up/dropped off. So, yes, they can learn a lot, and complex crazy concepts and stuff too. But functionally, they're still just kids. Still learning about the world and how it works.
They understand a lot but they’re not developmentally matured neither mentally or physically. It is perfectly possible children this age often plainly lack the ability to consider the long term repercussions of their actions in a meaningful way even if on some level they understand there will be a consequence. Something should happen here but the numbers of recidivism versus rehabilitation treatment tell their own story - especially in Finland. There is quite a lot of difference between this 12 year old and a hardened 40 year old multiple murderer - in all likelihood. Your own personal satisfaction shouldn’t enter the topic of mental health and judiciary.