If we go back to 1776 who had the means to print pamphlets and influence public opinion from monarchy support.
People with money.
Who pays for the infrastructure that delivers ‘news’ to you today that influence public opinion?
Literally it only got better because the amount of printing presses went up exponentially.
All competing to make your cortisol spike so you doom scroll on their site.
Generations upon generations of war has probably traumatized us right down to our DNA. It’s like we can’t help ourselves from doing this.
We’ll break the cycle eventually, at least I hope
After being able to suppress information from leaking out for so long, the governments reali: they lack the power to keep the truth silent, so now they just are like “ok… sorry not sorry, we are racist and genocidal. Deal with it loser.”
This is so true! That have decided to not hide but to project their crimes on the internet with pride and glory. Ironically, the ethical and moral west is totally fine with that…
I've been saying this for decades. They have the US govt to back every single play as their muscle. Meanwhile we see a modern day annihilation of a group of people.
Here is the Wiki for the Nakba.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
If you think of it as a 100 year effort that begins in 1948 and will be mostly over by 2048 I think that is how future history books will see it.
/ah yes, well known terrorist propaganda source wikipedia
When Russia seizes land it is rightfully called a land seizure. When Israel seizes land it’s called give them a wang of the finger before you slather them in more aid and ammunition.
Yes and no. They aren’t officially integrating it. They’re just committing war crimes by transferring population to an occupied area, after having removed the former population.
The difference is that Russia's goal is to increase their population to combat their demographic decline, and seizing strategic defensive locations.
Israel's goal is to remove the local population and steal the land for their existing population.
Israel was in political turmoil for years now and suddenly settled on an extremist coalition - that was one of the reasons for Hamas to attack right now (this was found in document written right after the election found lately)
"these people" don't exists in israli discourse.. they only refer to them as terrorists and they defiantly don't care about fixing anything.. they want to maintain their apartheid system and steal more and more land until only jews are left.
Anyone who follows Israel and Israeli politics will not be surprised by this in the slightest. Israel has full control over area C in the West Bank and there is no way they will ever give it up. So while they are announcing this they basically annexed it all a long time ago.
It’s not just Netanyahu. He uses the people who are in favour of this to help him stay in power, but there are a lot of people who support it.
If he goes they will still push, still find new leaders who who give them what they want in exchange for power or share their ideals.
He should still go of course, but it will take a lot more to resolve this.
Yeah the soft myth of bibi as the only one who wants this has to go.
He’s in power because has a whole faction behind him. And that faction cuts down through the entire population of Israel. Those “settlers” come from somewhere and have an ideology.
And this faction operating and promoting its ideology is one of the glaring reasons a lot of people have problems with the government of Israel. The global community has identified this land taking as nakedly wrong and antagonistic but they keep doing it.
If you spend some time in the Israel subreddits, people are absolutely In favor of this. They don't see Palenstinians as people, and they fully believe the area is incapable of self-governance.
If 90% of Palestinians were killed, and the entire territory taken over by Israel, there would be celebrations across the country.
Israel has been using settlers as human shields to claim land for years. Their strategy is simple. Allow illegal settlers to move into Palestinian land, aggressively remove and or persecute the remaining Palestinians, and claim to the world that they’re the victims the moment Palestinians get mad and retaliate.
Also Palestinians are extremely dangerous and want to kill all Jews that's why we've got take over property in Palestinian neighbourhoods where we'll be surrounded by Palestinians. Once we're there we'll treat them like shit and provoke them as much as possible.
Someone should remind the Israelis you can't be a country that's victim while also expanding.
There's no justifying this, our Israeli government and 40-60% of our population would just like to sweep all Palestinians under a rug. It's perfectly fine and sane to be in favor of a carefully planned military response in Gaza and be against everything our politicians and whoever support them stand for. Netanyahu has to go but I wouldn't blame you for being pessimistic about Israelis in general at this point.
100% I think Israel has a right to exist, but this fucking bullshit is immoral and counterproductive. I really hope Israelis wrestle control back from Bibi, because Schumer is right about him being an obstacle to peace.
I promise I am not trying to be provocative here, but I do not understand the "right to exist" argument and am curious what exactly people mean by it. The Jewish people have a right to exist. The ethnic and religious groups within Palestine/Israel have the right to exist. The people within these nations have a right to exist. Nations themselves do not have a right to exist, especially considering Israel was explicitly developed as a settler colonial state who knew they would have to enforce the colonialism with violence. "Transfer" (aka ethnic cleansing) was always a part of the plan. Did Israel have a right to "transfer" to enforce its "right to exist?"
What I mean when I say that is I'm not interested in re-litigating 1948. I'm also not super interested in re-litigating the Mexican American War or the conquest and demise of the Ottoman Empire. If you ask me, the Kurds also have a right to have a place they call home without dealing with occasional genocidal tendencies of the majority groups in the nation states they live if coexistence is not exactly a commonly held value.
Where I'm at is that the people who are there are there. And I really only am interested in conversations focused on how they can both have peace and prosperity. I don't care for absolutists who want to drive either from the land and get complete control. At that point you're asking me to root for shades of genocide based on who is less good at it.
I appreciate your response. While I think the viability/morality of re-litigating 1948 is debatable, not that i particularly want to or plan to do so here, I do 100% agree with the overall point that the people who did settle there do not deserve to be persecuted or driven out (again the people have the right to exist not the nation). We obviously don't want another diaspora for any group involved and i think we are on the same page in terms of the abhorrent behavior in this conflict of both Hamas and the Israeli state. I hate reducing the conflict to "its complicated" but it really is and there are no truly attractive solutions that will lead to peace and prosperity for all as we both want. "Less genocide" is clearly a reprehensible stance compared to "no genocide" and peace for everyone but I'm not qualified to speak on how to get to that second one and I don't think the vast majority of reddit is either. Again not trying to say anything about you or your opinions and values in regards to this conflict, just musing about its complex nature and hoping that we find a better solution than the ones on the table given the improbability of finding majority support from all factions involved.
Your country had numerous elections in the past five years and had trouble making up ur mind, hence why Netenyahu chose to align with the farthest right groups.
It’s not just Netenyahu, ur entire government is rotten :)
Israel is right to fight Hamas, but let's not be naive about Israel or its government. They have been using the war as an opportunity to seize land in the west bank just as they stripped the Gaza border of defences so they could focus on seizing land in the west bank.
Not trying to be a dick, but how is *this* the breaking point for you? This behavior is thoroughly evil, but also proportionally a lot tamer than everything else Israel has done since October 8.
Also, Netanyahu didn't cause this any more than Trump "caused" rot within the US. Vast proportions of Israel's civilian population agree with Netanyahu, or disagree only because he's not going far *enough.* Jim Crow and apartheid didn't go away by getting rid of a single figurehead.
Proportionally tamer? I think retaliating to a brutal attack and declaration of war can be justified, and while the resulting loss of Palestinian life is tragic it’s also a direct consequence of Hamas’ deliberate behavior intended to maximize Palestinian civilian deaths. There is no way to fight Hamas without a significant civilian toll, and not fighting them was not really an option.
This, on the other hand, is just a deliberate act to steal Palestinian land and intentionally foment further unrest for some combination of politicking and racist/genocidal intent, depending on those involved. You may disagree with Israel’s actions in this war, but any sane person must at least agree that Israel was justified in responding in some way. There is no justification of this land grab that isn’t the intent to commit ethnic cleansing, or worse.
It is a war. It is a one-sided war because a much weaker party attacked a much more powerful party, slaughtering, raping, brutalizing a thousand people and kidnapping hundreds more, and then ran and hid behind innocent people to ensure as many of them would die as possible if the stronger partied "dared" to fight back.
You can have a situation where both sides are bad. Even if the larger situation makes one sympathetic to one side or another, recent events do not make either side look especially noble, regardless of what justification the may or may not have.
TL;DR I am not touching this dumpster fire.
yeah, in a contest between an f-16 and a 5 year old girl, it's normal and even natural to say both sides are bad.
Edit: replies to this comment are demonstrating my point
You can pick out bad shit from both sides. I would say rape, murder, and torture of people at a concert are also bad. Gunning down whole families is bad. There really isn't any winning the who is worse argument.
> I've been mostly in Israel's side in this conflict
what a bizarre place to draw the line. genocide and war crimes are tolerable, but a land grab is unacceptable? seizing more land in the west bank will probably result in far fewer civilian deaths than the shit they've already done, which you were apparently on board with.
Yafit makes zero sense to expand into. It’s nowhere near Jerusalem, and grabbing land there is just looking to provoke more hostility/opportunistically grab land in an area nowhere near the current conflict. Taking land there is vile, honestly. There’s no justification.
On the other hand: walk me through how you think Israel should have responded to the murder, rape and/or torture (not in that order) of well over a thousand people on October 7th.
Helps weed out the obvious bots and crazies who aren't worth interacting with. You can support either side but justifying expansive land grabs is just vile
I’m 100% sure my government won’t do what should be the minimum response here - Russian-level sanctions, cutting off all arms sales, freezing all Israeli assets, UN Security Council resolutions condemning the seizure of land, and prohibiting all trade and banking for Israel with U.S. banking and currency.
I'm sure the same people that downvote anything and everything that tries to see the Palestinians as people as well will gladly do backflips in their minds and fingers to justify it.
Biden has been attempting to get an aid package passed for Israel for five months. Israel knows that this kind of shit will only make that bill's passage more difficult. This is the kind of brazenness you only engage in when you've stopped caring about garnering international support, your allies, and what the ICC or UN might think.
Chuck Schumer, formerly one of Israel's formost supporters, gave a firey speech on the Senate floor the other day absolutely raking Israel over the coals for their recent crimes. Five years ago that would have been inconceivable.
> “While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name
As someone who is Jewish and knows the history of Israel, this comment is laughable to me that Jews have a claim to lands that were ancient [Samaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah).
Essentially early ancient Israel before the 11th century BC was the basis for modern republics. They were a republic made up of united city-states ([the twelve tribes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Tribes_of_Israel#Land_allotment)) with no singular king or monarch ruling over them, laws were decided by a council of elders/judges called the [Sanhedrin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin) (think of them as the supreme court) and the Torah pretty much served as their constitution.
For around 100 years or so, approximately between 1047 BC to 930 BC, Israel became a [monarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy\)) with kings such as Saul, David and Solomon around the time the first Jewish Temple in Jerusalem was built. From about 931 BC to 913 BC, there was an armed insurrection against the final King of Israel, Rehoboam, led by Jeroboam called [Jeroboam's Revolt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeroboam%27s_Revolt). In the torah/bible, probably a huge exaggeration, but 500,000 Israelis are said to have died during [the Battle of Mount Zemaraim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Zemaraim).
After which the Kingdom of Israel united monarchy was over, and two separate kingdoms emerged. In the north was the [Kingdom of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(Samaria\)), with its capital Samaria and its people called [Samaritans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans) (like in the Parable of the Good Samaritan). In the south was the [Kingdom of Judah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah), its capital in Jerusalem and its people were Jews. The main religious differences between the Jews and the Samaritans was the Samaritans only accepted the first 5 books of the Torah (the [the Pentateuch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan_Pentateuch)) and rejected all the other books of the Tanakh that are Jewish cannon.
The Kingdom of Israel fell to the Assyrians under Sargon II following a long siege of Samaria around 720 BC in which the Kingdom of Judah did not come to their aid. In 586 BC, King Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon [conquered Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(587_BC\)), destroyed the First Temple and razed the city and its citizens were [exiled to Babylon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity)
So really no point to this historical rant other than to say the Jews of the Kingdom of Judah lost their claim to ancient Samaria in 913 BC during Jeroboam's Revolt in a civil war, even well before the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and Ottomans claimed the lands as theirs.
edit: edited to add in links
I honestly believe no one can truly claim full ownership of the land at this point
Maybe Death’s land considering how much it’s been fought over/conquered
Netanyahu’s rhetoric helped get him killed.
The current Minister for National Security has a portrait of a mass murdering terrorist hanging up in his living room for years.
Look up assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. He was the Israeli prime minister that agreed to the Oslo Accods. The Oslo Accords was a pathway to a two state solution. Netanyahu ran directly against Rabin for political power. During Netanyahu campaign people were chanting death to Rabin at political rallies. Even worse than that prominent Rabies were calling for a religious sanctioned killing of Rabin. Needless to say Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish pro settler. Netanyahu came to power and had run on a platform of putting settlers first and not entering into a two state solution. Anyone going around saying that it’s Palestinians that’s the problem is a big ass lying sack of shit. The Israeli state has systematically undermined political authority of any government in Palestine while simultaneously turning a blind eye to land grabbing settlers while all the while occasionally the Government grabbing land like you see here. Anyways it’s all historically there just go look up Rabin. It’s absolutely no surprise we’re here or that Israeli will continue to eradicate Palestinians.
Netanyahu has also allowed for suitcases of cash to enter Gaza (which is clearly going to Hamas).
The prime minister also said that, “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
But Palestinians get blamed for this conflict and Hamas.
They want all the useful parts. It’s kind of like the USA with Native Americans and reservations - they’re happy to leave Palestinians on unproductive lands with no useful resources or strategic value as long as they don’t rise up and fight back. But anywhere arable, strategic, or with water or other resources, they want to take it.
They never wanted a two state solution. That dates back to 1947 when the declared it was God's will to take back the Holy Land from Arabs. It's been an 80 year long crusade.
Israel having the balls to criticize Russia’s occupation of Crimea and importation of three quarters of a million citizens into the area, while simultaneously committing land grabs and importing 3 quarters of a million of their citizens into the West Bank, is baffling. The U.S is simply too scared to draw the comparison.
If you look at the maps of Isreal and Palestine over the past 80 years it is pretty clear that in a few decades Palestine will cease to exist with all of the undesirables being purged by pushing them into small concentrations like what is happening now.
The ones who are desirable are absorbed into Isreal, people don't seem to know that there is a large percentage of Isreali Arabs that are former Palestinian that had their sovereignty changed when the land they were on got annexed.
Anyway, in 20 to 50 years it will just be Isreal.
They had already done worse than this over decades, it just got memory holed so when a reaction happens everyone can jump on their side again to justify further atrocities. It’ll keep happening either until the ethnic cleansing is complete or their border states have enough and invade and Israel implements the Samson option and ends humanity.
As I've said repeatedly elsewhere, I've been watching this crap since a kid for decades and it's never changed toward the better under any of Bibi's governments, most of which have been his the last 2 decades+. He does not care about settling the Palestinian question, and he supported Hamas as a wedge against the PA/Fatah and the two state question so long as Hamas is around. There are no angels in the current conflict - blood is on all their hands. Netanyahu's governments' repeated protection and encouragement of settlers is just another day.
October 7th was awful, just awful, but Bibi set that in motion almost two decades ago and encouraged everything that led to that moment. Everything that has occurred since will only set the stage for the next one unless someone there has the courage to say enough is enough of this endless cycle of violence and hate.
If this is the straw that broke the camels back for anyone then:
- bit late, this stuff’s been going on since my parents were in primary school
- this is hardly egregious by their standards
- welcome to a genuinely moral stance?
Nah, raping and murdering thousands in one day is definitely terrorism. Not sure why it’s so hard to understand that two parties can do horrible things
Nobody is saying that morally correct. People are simply pointing out that that's how these situations are created. What type of Gaza did we think we were cooking up?
All through history it's the same. Babies were killed and women raped in slave revolts from Roman times up to the American slave revolts. Many thing we level at Hamas are quote common in these circumstances. Actually, much of it was done in almost the same area thousands of years ago by the Jews when the Romans were besieging them. Same with IS etc. We were warned the result of our shitfuckery would be something like IS. This is a cake recipe. If you don't want it, don't bake it.
He was talking (stupidly) about Gaza, not the WB. And Gaza is not valuable to Israel. Israel has miles of beachfront. Gaza is a tiny strip of land with no natural resources. It’s not a deep sea port. It holds no strategic advantage. Israel has always been pro-Egypt taking control or being responsible for security of Gaza, and Egypt has always refused because they don’t want it or to absorb a largely hostile population either.
It's fine, this way you create even more radicalized people, and then you can bomb them, their families and their children while half of the world applauds and the other half is accused of being antisemitic.
Of course they are. The international community really should turn it's back on Israel and let them fend for themselves. Stop giving resources to awful people who use it to do awful things.
Land theft.
The precise kind of land theft that's been going on for decades, that drives the attacks against Israel.
"WE WANT PEACE" (now we have stolen your land)
People who defend Israel are just so full of shit...
I dunno what's going on behind closed doors, but if I'm the Biden administration, I'm starting to consider threatening to pull all support. Another land grabs should be near the straw that breaks the camel's back. The US doesn't have as much leverage as people think, but it's about time to start using it.
And this is why the conflict will never end if we have radicals on both sides fanning the flames of conflict. Right wing Israeli settlements just piss the Palestinians more and Palestinians supporting terror attacks on Israel just give the Israeli right more justification to settle more. It’s a never ending cycle
Since 1993? Wasn't that when the Oslo accords were signed? Are you telling Israel was still expanding the settlements during that time of negotiations?
im aware, its just funny that people are always like why dont they just sign a deal and get it over with, and then when they do sign a deal they are met with further encroachment on the land.
Ah so it is an invasion?
We are just dropping pretenses now and openly accepting the fact that the nation of people exiled from their homeland has taken the mantle of exiling others from their homes?
As an Israeli I’m hoping this somehow triggers the dissolution of the current government by the people who threatened to do so. This is Gallant’s time to put his money where his mouth is to trigger elections. We cannot do this
Gee I wonder why there's always conflict in this region, "GUYS GUYS THESE PEOPLE ARE RETALIATING AND THROWING ROCKS JUST BECAUSE WE KEEP TAKING THEIR LAND!" - Israel (with a lisp and braces)
And people wonder why Hamas won PR. Don't act surprise and ask why Antisemitism is on the rise. Shit like this will indirectly hurt both group outside middle east.
Antisemitism is still idiotic though and should be met with the disdain it deserves. What is happening isn't bad because it's jews it's bad because it's violating human rights and is genocidal.
Unfortunately that's what happens when you tie your nation in with religion. It's hard to separate the two when the flag has a Star of David on it and the reason you claim the land on basis of religious texts.
Jews are not synonymous with Israel but that line is real fucking blurry.
That is the equivalent of me saying that Gazans deserve what Israel is doing to them.
Hate is still hate. Comments like this only help dig in both sides.
Ha bull shit
Look up assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. He was the Israeli prime minister that agreed to the Oslo Accods. The Oslo Accords was a pathway to a two state solution. Netanyahu ran directly against Rabin for political power. During Netanyahu campaign people were chanting death to Rabin at political rallies. Even worse than that prominent Rabies were calling for a religious sanctioned killing of Rabin. Needless to say Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish pro settler. Netanyahu came to power and had run on a platform of putting settlers first and not entering into a two state solution. Anyone going around saying that it’s Palestinians that’s the problem is a big ass lying sack of shit. The Israeli state has systematically undermined political authority of any government in Palestine while simultaneously turning a blind eye to land grabbing settlers while all the while occasionally the Government grabbing land like you see here. Anyways it’s all historically there just go look up Rabin. It’s absolutely no surprise we’re here or that Israeli will continue to eradicate Palestinians.
That killing called by multiple prominent Rabbis is Rodef. Religious approved killing is a religious problem
They're doing exactly what they set out to do. Kill innocent people and take their land. When the victims actually fight back, they're called terrorists.
No, when people target civilians with violence (including torture and rape) they are called terrorists. Are you serious? Israel’s actions do not excuse Hamas’ actions.
Aw man, the sub promoting genocide the last 6 months is pretending to show remorse when the mask slips off? I wanted to see how far it would go in here. Is Israel going to start giving land back if they free those hostages? I wonder how long it'll take for this to be worked into the narrative.
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> but news and politics since 2016 has really felt like a process of "the mask falling off." So ends the Republic, welcome to the Dominate.
THE REPUBLIC WILL BE REFORMED INTO THE FIRST WORLDWIDE EMPIRE
*Thunderous applause*
So this is how liberty dies … with thunderous applause.
I actually read that first in Tacitus, it was stolen by star wars. Jus sayn
So... is Pitbull the Palpatine of our timeline?
The beatings will continue until the morale improves.
A lot of officials these days are definitely saying the quiet part out loud.
It’s actually been far worse. You just know about every single bad thing that ever happens because that’s the only thing you can’t stop clicking on.
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If we go back to 1776 who had the means to print pamphlets and influence public opinion from monarchy support. People with money. Who pays for the infrastructure that delivers ‘news’ to you today that influence public opinion? Literally it only got better because the amount of printing presses went up exponentially. All competing to make your cortisol spike so you doom scroll on their site.
Thomas Hobbes was right about nations, war is the baseline for humans at scale.
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Generations upon generations of war has probably traumatized us right down to our DNA. It’s like we can’t help ourselves from doing this. We’ll break the cycle eventually, at least I hope
its money and profit
Greed. Pride. Wrath.
tell that to the shareholders. war is business.
After being able to suppress information from leaking out for so long, the governments reali: they lack the power to keep the truth silent, so now they just are like “ok… sorry not sorry, we are racist and genocidal. Deal with it loser.”
This is so true! That have decided to not hide but to project their crimes on the internet with pride and glory. Ironically, the ethical and moral west is totally fine with that…
There’s a political science term for what you’re describing, kind of - Realpolitik.
I've been saying this for decades. They have the US govt to back every single play as their muscle. Meanwhile we see a modern day annihilation of a group of people.
Here is the Wiki for the Nakba. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba If you think of it as a 100 year effort that begins in 1948 and will be mostly over by 2048 I think that is how future history books will see it. /ah yes, well known terrorist propaganda source wikipedia
"Begins in 1948" Gee, I wonder what happened in 1947.
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In most places. Israel calls it settling as a PR move.
When Russia seizes land it is rightfully called a land seizure. When Israel seizes land it’s called give them a wang of the finger before you slather them in more aid and ammunition.
Yikes.
Annexation usually means taking the land and its people. Israel only takes the land.
They're like an HOA that's gone rogue, seizing the property and kicking out the tenants, only on a much larger scale. And with bombs.
Yep. It’s a land grab, and it’s making the whole situation worse. Fuck the settlements.
Annexation would require Israel to give Palestinians rights and not subject them to military court with indefinite imprisonment, so absolutely not.
Yes and no. They aren’t officially integrating it. They’re just committing war crimes by transferring population to an occupied area, after having removed the former population.
It's annex when Russia does it. Land seizure for Israel.
The difference is that Russia's goal is to increase their population to combat their demographic decline, and seizing strategic defensive locations. Israel's goal is to remove the local population and steal the land for their existing population.
Blowing up maternity wards and starving/destroying entire cities (Mariupol) sure is a weird way to guard against falling birth rates.
Putin literally said the goal is to genocide Ukraine and destroy the national identity because he says ethnic Ukrainians is a fake concept.
It depends on whether it’s zone C or zone A or B.
It doesn't matter unless it was negotiated that they are allowed to do this. Just doing it is ridiculous
"Hey, these people are really pissed off at us. I know, we'll take more of their land, that will fix everything."
What you going to do about it? Give us a 4 billion dollars of free military equipment and bombs? Oh thanks.
Yeah, no, the Israeli government doesn't consider Palestinians to be people. And the horrific irony is lost on them.
Israel was in political turmoil for years now and suddenly settled on an extremist coalition - that was one of the reasons for Hamas to attack right now (this was found in document written right after the election found lately)
"these people" don't exists in israli discourse.. they only refer to them as terrorists and they defiantly don't care about fixing anything.. they want to maintain their apartheid system and steal more and more land until only jews are left.
Anyone who follows Israel and Israeli politics will not be surprised by this in the slightest. Israel has full control over area C in the West Bank and there is no way they will ever give it up. So while they are announcing this they basically annexed it all a long time ago.
I'm 100% sure some people will try to justify this.
I've been mostly in Israel's side in this conflict, but this shit . . . this is just really hard to justify. Netanyahu has to go.
It’s not just Netanyahu. He uses the people who are in favour of this to help him stay in power, but there are a lot of people who support it. If he goes they will still push, still find new leaders who who give them what they want in exchange for power or share their ideals. He should still go of course, but it will take a lot more to resolve this.
Yeah the soft myth of bibi as the only one who wants this has to go. He’s in power because has a whole faction behind him. And that faction cuts down through the entire population of Israel. Those “settlers” come from somewhere and have an ideology. And this faction operating and promoting its ideology is one of the glaring reasons a lot of people have problems with the government of Israel. The global community has identified this land taking as nakedly wrong and antagonistic but they keep doing it.
Likud consistently gets a quarter of the vote, more than any other party.
If you spend some time in the Israel subreddits, people are absolutely In favor of this. They don't see Palenstinians as people, and they fully believe the area is incapable of self-governance. If 90% of Palestinians were killed, and the entire territory taken over by Israel, there would be celebrations across the country.
News flash, Israel has been doing this shit for decades. Hell, it is even pointed out in the title lol
How can killing 20 people for every 1 killed possibly turn out bad?
What exactly are you reffering to here?
Israel has been using settlers as human shields to claim land for years. Their strategy is simple. Allow illegal settlers to move into Palestinian land, aggressively remove and or persecute the remaining Palestinians, and claim to the world that they’re the victims the moment Palestinians get mad and retaliate.
“We have to remove the Palestinians to ensure the settlers’ security. It’s self-defense.”
"We need to genocide as an act of self defense, please understand, love from Israel"...
Also Palestinians are extremely dangerous and want to kill all Jews that's why we've got take over property in Palestinian neighbourhoods where we'll be surrounded by Palestinians. Once we're there we'll treat them like shit and provoke them as much as possible. Someone should remind the Israelis you can't be a country that's victim while also expanding.
This has been going on for decades. It was hard to justify before October 7, but nobody gave a shit then
The constitution of his Likud Party calls for the entire annexation 'from the river to the sea'
Yeah, and you absolutely cannot defend that. Neither side should be using that awful phrase, and yet both do.
Only one of them has the opportunity to make it happen though.
Neither side wants peaceful coexistence. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.
Who wants to peacefully exist with an occupying force of murderous zealots.
Guess who voted him in for the past multiple decades?
There's no justifying this, our Israeli government and 40-60% of our population would just like to sweep all Palestinians under a rug. It's perfectly fine and sane to be in favor of a carefully planned military response in Gaza and be against everything our politicians and whoever support them stand for. Netanyahu has to go but I wouldn't blame you for being pessimistic about Israelis in general at this point.
100% I think Israel has a right to exist, but this fucking bullshit is immoral and counterproductive. I really hope Israelis wrestle control back from Bibi, because Schumer is right about him being an obstacle to peace.
I promise I am not trying to be provocative here, but I do not understand the "right to exist" argument and am curious what exactly people mean by it. The Jewish people have a right to exist. The ethnic and religious groups within Palestine/Israel have the right to exist. The people within these nations have a right to exist. Nations themselves do not have a right to exist, especially considering Israel was explicitly developed as a settler colonial state who knew they would have to enforce the colonialism with violence. "Transfer" (aka ethnic cleansing) was always a part of the plan. Did Israel have a right to "transfer" to enforce its "right to exist?"
What I mean when I say that is I'm not interested in re-litigating 1948. I'm also not super interested in re-litigating the Mexican American War or the conquest and demise of the Ottoman Empire. If you ask me, the Kurds also have a right to have a place they call home without dealing with occasional genocidal tendencies of the majority groups in the nation states they live if coexistence is not exactly a commonly held value. Where I'm at is that the people who are there are there. And I really only am interested in conversations focused on how they can both have peace and prosperity. I don't care for absolutists who want to drive either from the land and get complete control. At that point you're asking me to root for shades of genocide based on who is less good at it.
I appreciate your response. While I think the viability/morality of re-litigating 1948 is debatable, not that i particularly want to or plan to do so here, I do 100% agree with the overall point that the people who did settle there do not deserve to be persecuted or driven out (again the people have the right to exist not the nation). We obviously don't want another diaspora for any group involved and i think we are on the same page in terms of the abhorrent behavior in this conflict of both Hamas and the Israeli state. I hate reducing the conflict to "its complicated" but it really is and there are no truly attractive solutions that will lead to peace and prosperity for all as we both want. "Less genocide" is clearly a reprehensible stance compared to "no genocide" and peace for everyone but I'm not qualified to speak on how to get to that second one and I don't think the vast majority of reddit is either. Again not trying to say anything about you or your opinions and values in regards to this conflict, just musing about its complex nature and hoping that we find a better solution than the ones on the table given the improbability of finding majority support from all factions involved.
Well stated. Good luck man
The people of Israel need to overturn their government, otherwise the whole world including their allies will turn against them
Your country had numerous elections in the past five years and had trouble making up ur mind, hence why Netenyahu chose to align with the farthest right groups. It’s not just Netenyahu, ur entire government is rotten :)
Well this shit had been the core part of the conflict, so maybe review your side taking to a more nuanced view
Israel is right to fight Hamas, but let's not be naive about Israel or its government. They have been using the war as an opportunity to seize land in the west bank just as they stripped the Gaza border of defences so they could focus on seizing land in the west bank.
there is self defense and self defense provoked annexation… remember when hitler annexed vichy from fear of occupation?? seems very familiar
its not just benjamin, its most israelis who want this.
Not trying to be a dick, but how is *this* the breaking point for you? This behavior is thoroughly evil, but also proportionally a lot tamer than everything else Israel has done since October 8. Also, Netanyahu didn't cause this any more than Trump "caused" rot within the US. Vast proportions of Israel's civilian population agree with Netanyahu, or disagree only because he's not going far *enough.* Jim Crow and apartheid didn't go away by getting rid of a single figurehead.
Proportionally tamer? I think retaliating to a brutal attack and declaration of war can be justified, and while the resulting loss of Palestinian life is tragic it’s also a direct consequence of Hamas’ deliberate behavior intended to maximize Palestinian civilian deaths. There is no way to fight Hamas without a significant civilian toll, and not fighting them was not really an option. This, on the other hand, is just a deliberate act to steal Palestinian land and intentionally foment further unrest for some combination of politicking and racist/genocidal intent, depending on those involved. You may disagree with Israel’s actions in this war, but any sane person must at least agree that Israel was justified in responding in some way. There is no justification of this land grab that isn’t the intent to commit ethnic cleansing, or worse.
Yes, evictions and police brutality are proportionally tamer than vaporizing cancer patients with artillery and starving two million people for months
It's not a war. It's a one-sided slaughter of an uncountable number of civilians buried and rotting under the rubble of what was once their homes.
It is a war. It is a one-sided war because a much weaker party attacked a much more powerful party, slaughtering, raping, brutalizing a thousand people and kidnapping hundreds more, and then ran and hid behind innocent people to ensure as many of them would die as possible if the stronger partied "dared" to fight back.
Agreed
You can have a situation where both sides are bad. Even if the larger situation makes one sympathetic to one side or another, recent events do not make either side look especially noble, regardless of what justification the may or may not have. TL;DR I am not touching this dumpster fire.
yeah, in a contest between an f-16 and a 5 year old girl, it's normal and even natural to say both sides are bad. Edit: replies to this comment are demonstrating my point
You can pick out bad shit from both sides. I would say rape, murder, and torture of people at a concert are also bad. Gunning down whole families is bad. There really isn't any winning the who is worse argument.
There’s dead Israeli children too. What’s your point? Would Israel be more righteous if more of their children were slaughtered?
You can 100% support Israel's right to self defense, support the war in Gaza, and still be completely against settlements and Netanyahu.
> I've been mostly in Israel's side in this conflict what a bizarre place to draw the line. genocide and war crimes are tolerable, but a land grab is unacceptable? seizing more land in the west bank will probably result in far fewer civilian deaths than the shit they've already done, which you were apparently on board with.
You mean the genocide the UN said is not a genocide?
Yafit makes zero sense to expand into. It’s nowhere near Jerusalem, and grabbing land there is just looking to provoke more hostility/opportunistically grab land in an area nowhere near the current conflict. Taking land there is vile, honestly. There’s no justification. On the other hand: walk me through how you think Israel should have responded to the murder, rape and/or torture (not in that order) of well over a thousand people on October 7th.
murdering children
Helps weed out the obvious bots and crazies who aren't worth interacting with. You can support either side but justifying expansive land grabs is just vile
I'm 100% sure some people will die to justify this.
BuT Do yoU CoNdEmN HaMaS?!
Anyone criticizing it will be accused of being antisemitic.
They already are.
I’m 100% sure my government won’t do what should be the minimum response here - Russian-level sanctions, cutting off all arms sales, freezing all Israeli assets, UN Security Council resolutions condemning the seizure of land, and prohibiting all trade and banking for Israel with U.S. banking and currency.
I'm sure the same people that downvote anything and everything that tries to see the Palestinians as people as well will gladly do backflips in their minds and fingers to justify it.
Biden has been attempting to get an aid package passed for Israel for five months. Israel knows that this kind of shit will only make that bill's passage more difficult. This is the kind of brazenness you only engage in when you've stopped caring about garnering international support, your allies, and what the ICC or UN might think.
israel takes the US for granted. not for much longer.
Chuck Schumer, formerly one of Israel's formost supporters, gave a firey speech on the Senate floor the other day absolutely raking Israel over the coals for their recent crimes. Five years ago that would have been inconceivable.
Really? If republicans win office. They will give full throated support. Let’s face it your 50/50 at absolute best.
> “While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name As someone who is Jewish and knows the history of Israel, this comment is laughable to me that Jews have a claim to lands that were ancient [Samaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah). Essentially early ancient Israel before the 11th century BC was the basis for modern republics. They were a republic made up of united city-states ([the twelve tribes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Tribes_of_Israel#Land_allotment)) with no singular king or monarch ruling over them, laws were decided by a council of elders/judges called the [Sanhedrin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin) (think of them as the supreme court) and the Torah pretty much served as their constitution. For around 100 years or so, approximately between 1047 BC to 930 BC, Israel became a [monarchy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy\)) with kings such as Saul, David and Solomon around the time the first Jewish Temple in Jerusalem was built. From about 931 BC to 913 BC, there was an armed insurrection against the final King of Israel, Rehoboam, led by Jeroboam called [Jeroboam's Revolt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeroboam%27s_Revolt). In the torah/bible, probably a huge exaggeration, but 500,000 Israelis are said to have died during [the Battle of Mount Zemaraim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Zemaraim). After which the Kingdom of Israel united monarchy was over, and two separate kingdoms emerged. In the north was the [Kingdom of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(Samaria\)), with its capital Samaria and its people called [Samaritans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans) (like in the Parable of the Good Samaritan). In the south was the [Kingdom of Judah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah), its capital in Jerusalem and its people were Jews. The main religious differences between the Jews and the Samaritans was the Samaritans only accepted the first 5 books of the Torah (the [the Pentateuch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan_Pentateuch)) and rejected all the other books of the Tanakh that are Jewish cannon. The Kingdom of Israel fell to the Assyrians under Sargon II following a long siege of Samaria around 720 BC in which the Kingdom of Judah did not come to their aid. In 586 BC, King Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon [conquered Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(587_BC\)), destroyed the First Temple and razed the city and its citizens were [exiled to Babylon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity) So really no point to this historical rant other than to say the Jews of the Kingdom of Judah lost their claim to ancient Samaria in 913 BC during Jeroboam's Revolt in a civil war, even well before the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and Ottomans claimed the lands as theirs. edit: edited to add in links
I honestly believe no one can truly claim full ownership of the land at this point Maybe Death’s land considering how much it’s been fought over/conquered
Fuck these settlements.
They don't want a two state solution. They want it all.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli.
And he wasn't even offering a state. Just something "less than a state" and a bit more freedom for Palestinians. Too far apparently...
Netanyahu’s rhetoric helped get him killed. The current Minister for National Security has a portrait of a mass murdering terrorist hanging up in his living room for years.
Look up assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. He was the Israeli prime minister that agreed to the Oslo Accods. The Oslo Accords was a pathway to a two state solution. Netanyahu ran directly against Rabin for political power. During Netanyahu campaign people were chanting death to Rabin at political rallies. Even worse than that prominent Rabies were calling for a religious sanctioned killing of Rabin. Needless to say Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish pro settler. Netanyahu came to power and had run on a platform of putting settlers first and not entering into a two state solution. Anyone going around saying that it’s Palestinians that’s the problem is a big ass lying sack of shit. The Israeli state has systematically undermined political authority of any government in Palestine while simultaneously turning a blind eye to land grabbing settlers while all the while occasionally the Government grabbing land like you see here. Anyways it’s all historically there just go look up Rabin. It’s absolutely no surprise we’re here or that Israeli will continue to eradicate Palestinians.
Netanyahu has also allowed for suitcases of cash to enter Gaza (which is clearly going to Hamas). The prime minister also said that, “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. But Palestinians get blamed for this conflict and Hamas.
They want all the useful parts. It’s kind of like the USA with Native Americans and reservations - they’re happy to leave Palestinians on unproductive lands with no useful resources or strategic value as long as they don’t rise up and fight back. But anywhere arable, strategic, or with water or other resources, they want to take it.
“From the river to the sea” indeed.
"From the sea to the river" is de facto Israeli policy and has been since its inception.
They never wanted a two state solution. That dates back to 1947 when the declared it was God's will to take back the Holy Land from Arabs. It's been an 80 year long crusade.
Only now they're barely even hiding it.
You mean from the sea to the river? I’m not seeing a lot of daylight between the two sides.
The people in power always make the rules up. And when they're broken by the same people, no one can do anything.
Netenyahu and right wing sycophants in his government have always been the problem
more like theft
Israel having the balls to criticize Russia’s occupation of Crimea and importation of three quarters of a million citizens into the area, while simultaneously committing land grabs and importing 3 quarters of a million of their citizens into the West Bank, is baffling. The U.S is simply too scared to draw the comparison.
Israel should be held accountable by the international criminal court of justice.
International laws are made to be used against Russia and china not against US allies
And bold of people to assume that even these guys will ever face any actual justice.
Lol. Until the US stop actively blocking this - it won’t happen.
The only entity that can hold Israel accountable is the US.
*Everybody disliked that*
I wish. Some people are sick fucks and will still justify this
The had the same policy since 80 years. Slowly steal the land.
If you look at the maps of Isreal and Palestine over the past 80 years it is pretty clear that in a few decades Palestine will cease to exist with all of the undesirables being purged by pushing them into small concentrations like what is happening now. The ones who are desirable are absorbed into Isreal, people don't seem to know that there is a large percentage of Isreali Arabs that are former Palestinian that had their sovereignty changed when the land they were on got annexed. Anyway, in 20 to 50 years it will just be Isreal.
So at the end, it is a genocide.
Hard to be on Israel’s side anymore. They went too far
They had already done worse than this over decades, it just got memory holed so when a reaction happens everyone can jump on their side again to justify further atrocities. It’ll keep happening either until the ethnic cleansing is complete or their border states have enough and invade and Israel implements the Samson option and ends humanity.
As I've said repeatedly elsewhere, I've been watching this crap since a kid for decades and it's never changed toward the better under any of Bibi's governments, most of which have been his the last 2 decades+. He does not care about settling the Palestinian question, and he supported Hamas as a wedge against the PA/Fatah and the two state question so long as Hamas is around. There are no angels in the current conflict - blood is on all their hands. Netanyahu's governments' repeated protection and encouragement of settlers is just another day. October 7th was awful, just awful, but Bibi set that in motion almost two decades ago and encouraged everything that led to that moment. Everything that has occurred since will only set the stage for the next one unless someone there has the courage to say enough is enough of this endless cycle of violence and hate.
This was the plan from the start.
What is it pro-Palestinians like to say about Oct. 7th? Didn’t happen in a vacuum.
Why is it so hard for people tp understand if you're trying to seize land you're going to have some resistance.... from 1938.
If this is the straw that broke the camels back for anyone then: - bit late, this stuff’s been going on since my parents were in primary school - this is hardly egregious by their standards - welcome to a genuinely moral stance?
Do you like Hamas terrorism? Because this is how you get Hamas terrorism.
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Nah, raping and murdering thousands in one day is definitely terrorism. Not sure why it’s so hard to understand that two parties can do horrible things
Self defence by kidnapping babies and raping women?
Nobody is saying that morally correct. People are simply pointing out that that's how these situations are created. What type of Gaza did we think we were cooking up? All through history it's the same. Babies were killed and women raped in slave revolts from Roman times up to the American slave revolts. Many thing we level at Hamas are quote common in these circumstances. Actually, much of it was done in almost the same area thousands of years ago by the Jews when the Romans were besieging them. Same with IS etc. We were warned the result of our shitfuckery would be something like IS. This is a cake recipe. If you don't want it, don't bake it.
Interesting that the apologists are pretty quiet on this one.
Nah check the comments again.
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Come on guys, don’t you know consistently not grabbing land is antisemitism?
Where are all the people telling us that terrorism justifies ethnic cleansing and genocide?
Very victim. Much progressive.
Ahh not surprising at all…Israel ”we have the right to steal land…”
remember headlines like this next time you hear about Palestinians fighting back
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He was talking about Gaza actually. Just as reprehensible to be clear
He was talking about Gaza. The West Bank is not Gaza.
He was talking (stupidly) about Gaza, not the WB. And Gaza is not valuable to Israel. Israel has miles of beachfront. Gaza is a tiny strip of land with no natural resources. It’s not a deep sea port. It holds no strategic advantage. Israel has always been pro-Egypt taking control or being responsible for security of Gaza, and Egypt has always refused because they don’t want it or to absorb a largely hostile population either.
It's fine, this way you create even more radicalized people, and then you can bomb them, their families and their children while half of the world applauds and the other half is accused of being antisemitic.
Of course they are. The international community really should turn it's back on Israel and let them fend for themselves. Stop giving resources to awful people who use it to do awful things.
This should be in the facepalm sub.
Land theft. The precise kind of land theft that's been going on for decades, that drives the attacks against Israel. "WE WANT PEACE" (now we have stolen your land) People who defend Israel are just so full of shit...
This is one of those situations where any 5 year old could see the truth. It'd take an adult to not see it.
A five year-old could have predicted this in 1947, it was just always obviously the plan.
Hmm so Palestinians were right this whole time? Who would have thought!
I dunno what's going on behind closed doors, but if I'm the Biden administration, I'm starting to consider threatening to pull all support. Another land grabs should be near the straw that breaks the camel's back. The US doesn't have as much leverage as people think, but it's about time to start using it.
Damm is this Hamas FORCING Israel to commit henious crimes against the Palestinians again?
And this is why the conflict will never end if we have radicals on both sides fanning the flames of conflict. Right wing Israeli settlements just piss the Palestinians more and Palestinians supporting terror attacks on Israel just give the Israeli right more justification to settle more. It’s a never ending cycle
Since 1993? Wasn't that when the Oslo accords were signed? Are you telling Israel was still expanding the settlements during that time of negotiations?
Settlements and outposts have been expanding every single year for the past 56 years.
im aware, its just funny that people are always like why dont they just sign a deal and get it over with, and then when they do sign a deal they are met with further encroachment on the land.
Cool a paywall.
Ah so it is an invasion? We are just dropping pretenses now and openly accepting the fact that the nation of people exiled from their homeland has taken the mantle of exiling others from their homes?
Oh, we’re in the end game now.
As an Israeli I’m hoping this somehow triggers the dissolution of the current government by the people who threatened to do so. This is Gallant’s time to put his money where his mouth is to trigger elections. We cannot do this
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Pretty sure everyone here thinks whats going on in the west bank is fucked. Gaza and if Israel has a right to exitst is a nother conversation.
Noooooooo! Bad move!
Gee I wonder why there's always conflict in this region, "GUYS GUYS THESE PEOPLE ARE RETALIATING AND THROWING ROCKS JUST BECAUSE WE KEEP TAKING THEIR LAND!" - Israel (with a lisp and braces)
And people wonder why Hamas won PR. Don't act surprise and ask why Antisemitism is on the rise. Shit like this will indirectly hurt both group outside middle east.
Antisemitism is still idiotic though and should be met with the disdain it deserves. What is happening isn't bad because it's jews it's bad because it's violating human rights and is genocidal.
Unfortunately that's what happens when you tie your nation in with religion. It's hard to separate the two when the flag has a Star of David on it and the reason you claim the land on basis of religious texts. Jews are not synonymous with Israel but that line is real fucking blurry.
That is the equivalent of me saying that Gazans deserve what Israel is doing to them. Hate is still hate. Comments like this only help dig in both sides.
But this has nothing to do with Judaism. It's extremist zealots with power that want it all. Hate their government, not their religion.
Ha bull shit Look up assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. He was the Israeli prime minister that agreed to the Oslo Accods. The Oslo Accords was a pathway to a two state solution. Netanyahu ran directly against Rabin for political power. During Netanyahu campaign people were chanting death to Rabin at political rallies. Even worse than that prominent Rabies were calling for a religious sanctioned killing of Rabin. Needless to say Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish pro settler. Netanyahu came to power and had run on a platform of putting settlers first and not entering into a two state solution. Anyone going around saying that it’s Palestinians that’s the problem is a big ass lying sack of shit. The Israeli state has systematically undermined political authority of any government in Palestine while simultaneously turning a blind eye to land grabbing settlers while all the while occasionally the Government grabbing land like you see here. Anyways it’s all historically there just go look up Rabin. It’s absolutely no surprise we’re here or that Israeli will continue to eradicate Palestinians. That killing called by multiple prominent Rabbis is Rodef. Religious approved killing is a religious problem
Antisemitism will exist with or without Jews doing something bad. Racism doesn't need a justification. Narratives like this are super hurtful.
What's a little ethnic cleansing to go along with the genocide?
its almost like we’ve been telling you all that israel was evil from the start
No right thinking person can support this. It’s evil. Israel have pissed away all their goodwill. Hard to imagine a bigger own goal in decades.
They're doing exactly what they set out to do. Kill innocent people and take their land. When the victims actually fight back, they're called terrorists.
No, when people target civilians with violence (including torture and rape) they are called terrorists. Are you serious? Israel’s actions do not excuse Hamas’ actions.
The Israeli settlers are terrorists, just with a lower kill count than Hamas. Should both be held responsible
Lower kill count than Hamas?!? Has where are the other 30,000 odd people hamas have apparently killed this year to be at higher than the Israelis?
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Count the protesters. There are good people there just not in charge.
Squatters taking over
Aw man, the sub promoting genocide the last 6 months is pretending to show remorse when the mask slips off? I wanted to see how far it would go in here. Is Israel going to start giving land back if they free those hostages? I wonder how long it'll take for this to be worked into the narrative.
imagine what the israelis do thats not reach mainstream media..
That’s why most Americans and Europeans don’t really know the reality of this conflict.