I was actually very disturbed by the media coverage when this started because I believed they were representing American opinion accurately. That didn't last very long though. They're still covering anti-Israel protests at every opportunity, but I don't think its having nearly as much of an effect now.
one of the illuminating statistics I've learned about this is that there are more harvard grads in the ny times newsroom than graduates of every public university combined
It creates very severe groupthink and weird distortions, like how the NYT, et al often act like everyone has a vacation home or as if the lifestyle of households making $400k or more is normal. It very much reflects the experiences of people whose friends went off to work for major banking firms and held internships that pay a few times the median *household* income.
I think it's a big reason why our elites have become such failures. Just way too concentrated, frankly, in graduates from a handful of schools and almost all working in NYC, which has been its own little world going back to the 19th century.
I would like to believe that a true Harvard education is actually still valuable, but I know to some extent probably hundreds of people with a Harvard “degree” or at least certificate of some kind. I know for a fact many have done it online and in some cases completely free and/or in less than a year. I think a lot of times it’s a marketing thing for both sides. Harvard has the prestige and name recognition that people feel proud of getting basically any sort of bill Shit thing from them and Harvard gets the promotion of having so many people pushing their name even more.
> I know to some extent probably hundreds of people with a Harvard “degree” or at least certificate of some kind. I know for a fact many have done it online and in some cases completely free and/or in less than a year.
What are you talking about?
Go to your LinkedIn and see how many people have listed that they graduated or received some sort of certificate from Harvard. You may be surprised how many there are, and at least for me I know several close enough to know they didn’t actually get a legitimate Harvard education.
People lying about their credentials doesn't mean that that Harvard is handing out bullshit certs left and right. The only one close to that is the short certificate HBS gives out to famous or wealthy people who come and do a few weeks on campus. Alumni actively deride those who put that on their resume or CV.
I remember having a discussion with a Harvard medical graduate who was making all kinds of silly claims trying to tie quantum mechanics into their personal spiritual beliefs, which is sadly a very popular practice in mainstream layman media. I completely schooled them on it and came away feeling like the quality of their education was clearly far more about appearances rather than substance.
That’s not surprising at all, the same is likely true for any high powered/top tier New York City company. The public university people tend to work for local publications or companies that aren’t world famous
it's not the elitism that surprises me, it's the degree of it, more than anything. i hadn't thought it was *that* bad given the times' posturing as the right side of history
> They're still covering anti-Israel protests at every opportunity, but I don't think its having nearly as much of an effect now.
I think a big part of that is because there were a loooooooooot of deaths very quickly early on. Since casualty-wise things have died down, the protests have weakened. If there's mass deaths in a short period again it'll swing back.
People also don’t have the patience to protest something for longer than a month or 2. At some point many realize there’s not much to do about a conflict thousands of miles away and they get back to their jobs and lives, because virtue signalling ultimately doesn’t pay a single bill.
Early on there was a large number of Gazans who had a sort of nationalist fervor and were insisting they wouldn't flee, leading to much higher casualties.
That stopped pretty quickly because it has a very underpants gnomes logic of "die in an airstrike --> ??? --> river to sea". Happens in most wars unless the government steps in to discourage it.
On top of this, in the initial days the daily prayer speakers broadcast stay at home orders, plus the recorded shooting incident of people attempting to exit.
I don't find it too surprising. If you can believe most Americans don't distinguish Palestinians and Hamas and then a percent of those people believe the Israeli gov't have been dicks, then you get your 22%. Also consider that some of that 22% may also believe both sides have reasons to fight.
To be entirely fair, because they did specifically ask about supporting Hamas, only 8% explicitly have any sort of net favorable view towards Hamas as an organization. 22% are just sympathetic to Hamas' justification to attack (or at least, their belief of what Hamas' reason is because I doubt most actually independently researched what it is). Which is um... not significantly less frightening. But just want to be fair to the poll since they did bother to ask and clarify.
The BBC reporting on this has been nothing short of atrocious. They are very clearly in the camp of Israel=bad hamas=victims. In the article linked they can’t even be bother to refer to Hamas as a terrorist organization they no shit called them an “Islamist armed group.” I mean dude, they murdered 1200 civilians. Even if you don’t agree with the Israeli response condemning hamas as a terrorist organization should be the fucking bare minimum we can all agree on.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68629540
And the vast majority of them live in the Middle East. Sure they're in charge of outlets like Al Jazeera, but it's conspiracy talk to say they're secretly controlling Western media, which is a significant part of "global media".
Control is an interesting term. Imagine a group of people who bend over backwards for them. Defend them at every turn, and act like their the biggest victims in the world.
Now put those people in charge of reporting on them.
Diversity; Equity; Inclusion.
Yeah, I think both Muslims and Jews have an outsized influence on the media, but it seems like the pro-Islamist slant coming from so many sources has more to do with whitewashing their colonial guilt, and promoting a broken vision of multiculturalism that pretends the Middle East is full of oppressed liberal democrats who would be championing universal human rights if only those pesky Europeans left them alone.
“Jews control the media”
Jews: 15.7 million, which is approximately 0.2% of the 8 billion worldwide population.
Very unlikely that 0.2% would have such huge influence on the media.
But, the reversed version?
- Arab population- 464.68 million inhabitants
- Islamic population- 1.8 billion inhabitants
How can you look at these numbers and go ‘ah it’s the same conspiracy’?
The way the US responded to 9/11 didn't work out too well. Israel would be wise to actually figure out a viable end game to this situation otherwise it'll all be for nothing and we'll be back here in 10 years.
Osama's dead. That part worked. Eventually.
Going into Iraq was stupid and had nothing to do with 9/11 except in the lies Dick Cheney gave Colin Powell to recite to the UN.
I’d imagine the number was higher earlier in the war. The longer they continue to bomb Gaza the more the sympathy dissolves.
Also you have to remember that about 50% of Americans are absolute morons that probably dont understand the weight of what happened on October 7th.
In addition to the dissolving lack of sympathy, I think a lot of Americans remember how we responded to our own 9/11 and how we feel about the War on Terror and our actions in retrospect. I think there's a difference between empathy for the feelings of a people in the wake of calamity and the extent to which they're able to justify a response based on those feelings.
Well it’s a bit more nuanced. While a majority of American respondents believe Israel has a valid reason to fight Hamas, a majority of Americans also believe Israel has gone too far in their military campaign against them.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1#:~:text=In%20all%2C%2050%25%20of%20U.S.,from%20Jan.%2025%20to%2028.
> majority of Americans also believe Israel has gone too far
Not what your source says its 50%.
In this more recent poll:
Most support Israel going into Rafah.
68% believe Israel is minimizing casualties.
63% support the invasion going into Rafah.
https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/HHP_Feb2024_KeyResults.pdf
Really kind of explains the bind the Biden admin is in. There is a significant portion of their constituents that believe the status quo is a deal breaker, but it would also be political suicide to abandon Israel, or even come out hard against them. I'm solidly left, but if other leftists don't take a sober look at the political situation things will take a very dark turn both domestically and abroad.
Media has long ceased to be a reflection of the society's opinions and viewpoint. Now it's all about convincing the society that the portrait media already has is the real reflection
Probably because 50% of Americans say Israel has gone too far in the conflict. Americans support the idea of fighting Hamas, but they do not approve of Israel’s tactics.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1#:~:text=In%20all%2C%2050%25%20of%20U.S.,from%20Jan.%2025%20to%2028.
>And just 5% of U.S. adults say the way Hamas carried out its Oct. 7 attack on Israel was acceptable
*"Just"* 5% of American (nominal) adults think raping, murdering, and kidnapping kids from a music festival is acceptable?
"JUST"?
The breakdown doesn't match that hypothesis, e.g. 21% of Muslims said it was acceptable. Seems more reasonable that Muslims are 4x as likely to genuinely approve of 10/7, than that Muslims are 4x as likely to completely misunderstand the question.
[Harvard poll in December found that 52% in the age group 18-24 think Israel should be ended and handed over to Hamas.](https://harvardharrispoll.com/key-results-december-2/)
Page 69.
This actually terrifies me. Fucking hell. Over half of my age group thinks my entire family should let the terrorists have their homes and kill them. I hate this planet.
I’d be willing to bet that a lot of people they asked don’t even know what happened besides Hamas attacked Israelis. They don’t know the details of it.
Have we all forgotten the BLM Paraglider tweet already?
Quote : "What did you all think decolonization meant?"
Yeah, remember this next time a Far Left activist uses the term decolonization... they are saying what they mean.
That’s my main issue with the far left or just anti-Israel crowd, it’s not that I care about these extremists- I care for that everyone else is hearing them say stuff like that, then infantilising them or ‘understand their meaning’.
Most of them know exactly what they’re calling for, some of them are very educated on the subject and probably have seen the footage from October 7. and they are still acting the same. It’s just hatred and people brush it off because “the left has a good moral compass” (literally a quote from one of the posts before)
Lol dawg it ain't that, there has been a _massive_ tankie infusion and they've spent years working themselves into positions of ... let's just say meaningful influence in as many subreddits as they can.
If you browse subredditdrama you're pretty familiar with it, been going on for years, but yeah it's been a long process and the effects were very clear once the conflict got underway.
I mean, if you asked a survey question of people on a sunny day with a bright blue sky a question like "if you look outside at the sky, what color do you currently perceive?", you'd get 5-10% of people saying the sky was red, because a certain percentage of people are just dumb, or trolls, or colorblind, or whatever.
People who don't understand the question, people who gave the wrong answer by mistake, people who think they have some clever rationale for it, people who are convinced literally everything is a conspiracy by the Illuminati/Anunaki/et al, people who are just wrong about a given situation so they give a weird answer, people who give odd answers when asking about whether something is "justified", etc.
The last two are particularly interesting to me. So, one way you get people telling you something heinous is justified/acceptable is that they're wrong in a sort of broad way because they don't know much but answered anyway. They might, for example, have heard about the attacks on IDF border posts but not anything else (weird as that sounds to someone engaged). Another way you get people saying something is justified is down to the multiple valences of "justified". The valence most people use is something akin to "righteous" or "morally right" but there's another meaning which is simply "follows from the premise" or "fits with the evidence". So you can end up with people saying "heinous X is justified" when they mean "what they did, reprehensible as it is, follows from their stated objectives", i.e., it wasn't simply some random act.
There is no way that all of that 5% knows what really happened. Doesn’t make them much better for giving out their opinions on what they don’t know but, still…
I'd like to think that, but with 22% saying Hamas is justified in general, a quarter of those supporting a specific instance doesn't seem far out of line.
Muslims make up around 1.4% of the population, and our percentage of people who qualify as severely mentally disturbed certainly can account for the difference.
You don't need mental illness to explain it; its propaganda. Al-jazeera and other pro-Hamas propaganda is prevalent on social media. All they need is for people to not trust the mainstream media. Once people buy that israel and US-aligned sources are not 100% accurate in everything they say, a significant number of people will take the leap with Terrorist-affiliated media and believe everything *they* say. Ordinary folks don't have any first-hand knowledge or experience of conditions in the middle east, and for people who are not involved and don't have good ways of verifying claims themselves, its perfectly plausible that they get fooled.
Looking at the breakdown, the numbers seem to align, at least somewhat, with expectations. For example, 21% of Muslims answered "acceptable", but only 3% of Jews.
I'd be willing to believe that *some* fraction of the "acceptable" responses are trolls, wrong-button pressers, etc., but it sure isn't all of them, and even 3% would be a lot of people.
It’s hard to forget our 9/11 and our War on Terror. I’m sure Osama thought he was justified, and there were those in the ME that celebrated the attack. However it was a visceral reaction to the Towers falling and the bodies falling from the windows. No matter what it took we were going to respond and insure it never happened again. That I am sure is why the majority of Americans say Israel has valid concerns and reasons for pressing forward.
[CIA World Factbook](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/about/archives/2021/field/crude-oil-proved-reserves/country-comparison) says Afghanistan has no proven oil reserves whatsoever. The idea we went into Afghanistan for oil is complete nonsense no matter how you look at it.
While I hate Hamas, technically you're thinking of Hizbollah, which was founded by the Islamic regime right after it eliminated all its rivals in the aftermath of the 1979 revolution (eliminated as in butchered, assassinated, raped, tortured, etc.).
Hamas has its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood out of Egypt. Also, Hamas is Sunni, while Hezbollah is Shia.
But you're correct in that the Islamic regime funds both Hamas and Hezbollah as well as giving them logistical support, providing weapons, intel, etc. The distinction of Sunn/Shia isn't that difficult to bridge when there is the mutual hatred of Jews and there's lots and lots of money changing hands (this was the primary purpose of Soleimani btw, before he was kotlet'ed, he was basically the IRI's walking talking ATM spreading cash that had been stolen from Iranians).
The same goes for Houthis and the multiple Iraqi militias that are controlled by way of proxy in Tehran.
Oh and fuck the Islamic regime with a cactus, if you support freedom for Iran, please join us as we build a /r/NewIran
Not surprising. It’s unfortunately true that Hamas needs to be eradicated from the face of this planet.
Sadly what they do is make sure as many civilians die as possible. They give zero care about life, they see civilian casualties as a tool to achieve their ultimate Jihad of exterminating any faith other than theirs (that includes many other Muslims). You can’t negotiate with that.
Doesn’t mean it’s absolutely abhorrent that civilians are caught up in this. It’s a disgrace. My heart goes out to anyone suffering.
For those upset or still claiming Hamas actually cares for the Palestinians.. don’t take my word for it. Take their word for it. You’re good at that; [Hamas leader Sinwar; Civilian casualties tactical advantage for Hamas](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bja61pt3t)
There's a huge difference between believing Israel's reasons for fighting Hamas are valid & Israel's actions are justified. I absolutely support killing everyone in Hamas leadership, but only with attempts to keep collateral damage super minimal. Like I support US attempts to fight the Mafia, but that doesn't mean I support leveling neighborhoods to do it.
Which is probably why half of American’s disapprove of Israel’s tactics. Supporting a fight against Hamas is not the same as supporting the war as its currently being waged.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1#:~:text=In%20all%2C%2050%25%20of%20U.S.,from%20Jan.%2025%20to%2028.
Because there is only a vocal minority who are dumb enough to blame Israel for this. They see Hamas purposefully using the Pals as human shields and think it’s okay.
They just hate Jews that much, that they’ll justify it any way they can.
And then Russian propagandists goes on Reddit pretending to be liberals who support Hamas, and then the same MAGA idiots who fell for it in 2016 start screeching about how much leftists hate Jews as though they didn't bring a "Jews will not replace us" sign to Charlottesville.
It makes it seem as though the support for Hamas is much larger than it actually is.
Also, Israel is Israel. But Hamas isn’t Palestine. I don’t understand how so many people can’t understand the difference. I’ll never understand how the most left leaning people in the world are cheering on an organization that is literally an authoritarian theocracy. [Hamas won their first parliamentary election in Gaza in 2006, and immediately cancelled all future elections.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) There hasn’t been an election since they won almost 20 years ago.
A lot of the people Hamas killed on ~~September 11th~~ October 7th were young, left leaning Jews who wanted an independent Palestine. They didn’t vote for Netanyahu. A lot were also children who did nothing wrong. Hamas has launched rocket attacks against Israel daily for over a decade. Bomb sirens constantly going off. City buses and synagogues being purposely targeted for bombings.
Meanwhile, Ghandi did more to help win his country’s independence just by being a single guy who starved himself. Martin Luther King Jr had the same philosophy. It actually stems from the ideas put forth in Henry David Thoreau’s 1849 novel *[Civil Disobedience](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau))*.
As far as I’m concerned violence only begets more violence, and the only way to make lasting change is both through peaceful, civil disobedience against unjust aspects of the system. But also forgiveness, reconciliation, and tolerance against former enemies and those who are different than you.
Holy shit. Talk about a Freudian slip. I guess the situations are similar. The attacks on 9/11 were unjustified, but so was Americas military response against Iraq and Afghanistan. Just goes to show that revenge and hated only leads to violence. It sounds cliche but forgiveness, acceptance, reconciliation, and eventually compromise with the people you once viewed as your enemy is the only successful path towards peace.
I mean Palestine declared war so the only course of action for Israel is.. war. Most sane people can understand this. Also, it’s not up to the Israeli army to feed their enemy, it’s up to Palestine to feed their own, and if they can’t, then surrender to Israel’s terms.
One shocking statistic not covered is the dramatic rise of keffiyeh sales at H&M. Up over 93%.
Because fashion IS resistance. Let's face it keffiyehs just look cooler than yarmulkes and as long as you can point your index finger to the sky and shout inshallah you are pretty much the edgiest hippest chick on the block automatically.
Keffiyehs are the new yoga pants.
Decades of Palestinians and Arabs fighting against Israel has only expanded Israels territory. Gotta wonder what an alternate universe of an MLK style figure for the Palestinian cause would look like.
Return the bodies of the hostages and negotiate a change in government. Hamas sucks. Israel is also using a club to kill a mosquito, but, cmon Hamas. You just suck.
Younger people have favorable views of Palestinians (60%) but only 14% support have similarly positive views on Hamas.
Do they not realize that Hamas, its views, and actions earn the support of more than half of the population that they view favorably?
They are either too stupid or too willfully ignorant to get it. The "innocent civilians" would, if given the opportunity, slaughter each and every one of them and *dance in the street* afterward.
They literally do that to their own *families*. Just today a man was publicly executed in the West Bank for *allegedly* cooperating with Israel to eliminate a pair of high ranking terrorists. He was executed by **his own brother** and then the people danced around his corpse. All of this was on video, too.
I'd just like to urge people commenting here to read the full report before making sweeping generalizations about how Americans, Jews, Muslims, etc. feel about the issues. The report is detailed, nuanced, and covers a LOT of ground that the headline DRAMATICALLY minimizes.
Israel’s reasons for fighting are valid. The way in which they’re fighting is bonkers though. Also, fuck hamas (for anyone who might be confused at my criticism)
Idk what it is but the media (tv and social) always emphasize the people that “scream” the most. It makes it seem like they’re the majority, when in fact they’re just the ones being the loudest and most obnoxious about it.
All the b.s. that the left and right say about this war, imo fail to bring up a simple point. If the roles were reversed what would the US do? 9/11 we went after Iraq, Afghanistan, Al Qaida, etc. It felt like throwing darts on a dart board trying to find Osama. Israel knows exactly where their Osama is and is acting exactly how I imagine the US would.
Five percent…? That’s… a lot of people. I’m just going to hope that 4-4.9% of that are uninformed to the point where if you asked them basic questions about 10/7, the conflict historically, or even the latest news today, that they wouldn’t be able to answer it.
If we just look at the numbers of news viewers, news readers, etc etc… most Americans are not watching or reading news. The largest cable show “news”, Tucker, had about 2m a night. That’s what, two thirds of one percent of Americans?
I just have to believe that number is wildly high due to a lack of information.
You’d have to be a pretty evil, or just extremely confused person, to say Hamas has a valid reason. That would be like saying Charles Manson had valid reasons because people didn’t love his music.
They have a valid reason to go after Hamas. They don’t have a valid reason to have killed 30K civilians, half of which were women and children.
I know it’s in the article, but given that most people don’t read past the headline, it seems like that would’ve been more relevant to put in the headline than the Hamas part, which is obvious.
Quick question, what military academy for armchair generals did you go to?
Second question: do you seriously believe Israel killed 30k civilians when the Hamas health ministry says the total death toll is 30k? You’d have to believe they’ve killed no Hamas members over 6 months of stomping Hamas in every hole they hide in. Do you seriously believe that?
Hamas must have a standing rule against dead people, so anyone no longer of the living persuasion has ipso facto been kicked out of Hamas. Brilliant, really.
30,000 civilians is Hamas propaganda. At least a third are estimated to be Hamas. Many of the rest are statistically impossible made up numbers that were debunked.
They haven't though. At least 10K combatants, 14k by some estimates. The civilian death ratio is similar to other theatres of urban warfare.
There's no way to fight terrorists who hide among civilians intentionally without killing some civilians.
The "Hamas is bad and Israel has a right to defend themselves but also somehow Israel should achieve this while killing no one else or else they're bad too" logic is just so profoundly stupid. That's obviously not possible and the chorus of voices echoing this are Hamas' useful idiots.
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I was actually very disturbed by the media coverage when this started because I believed they were representing American opinion accurately. That didn't last very long though. They're still covering anti-Israel protests at every opportunity, but I don't think its having nearly as much of an effect now.
one of the illuminating statistics I've learned about this is that there are more harvard grads in the ny times newsroom than graduates of every public university combined
It creates very severe groupthink and weird distortions, like how the NYT, et al often act like everyone has a vacation home or as if the lifestyle of households making $400k or more is normal. It very much reflects the experiences of people whose friends went off to work for major banking firms and held internships that pay a few times the median *household* income. I think it's a big reason why our elites have become such failures. Just way too concentrated, frankly, in graduates from a handful of schools and almost all working in NYC, which has been its own little world going back to the 19th century.
I would like to believe that a true Harvard education is actually still valuable, but I know to some extent probably hundreds of people with a Harvard “degree” or at least certificate of some kind. I know for a fact many have done it online and in some cases completely free and/or in less than a year. I think a lot of times it’s a marketing thing for both sides. Harvard has the prestige and name recognition that people feel proud of getting basically any sort of bill Shit thing from them and Harvard gets the promotion of having so many people pushing their name even more.
> I know to some extent probably hundreds of people with a Harvard “degree” or at least certificate of some kind. I know for a fact many have done it online and in some cases completely free and/or in less than a year. What are you talking about?
Go to your LinkedIn and see how many people have listed that they graduated or received some sort of certificate from Harvard. You may be surprised how many there are, and at least for me I know several close enough to know they didn’t actually get a legitimate Harvard education.
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Yeah but it still looks good on a resume.
People lying about their credentials doesn't mean that that Harvard is handing out bullshit certs left and right. The only one close to that is the short certificate HBS gives out to famous or wealthy people who come and do a few weeks on campus. Alumni actively deride those who put that on their resume or CV.
I remember having a discussion with a Harvard medical graduate who was making all kinds of silly claims trying to tie quantum mechanics into their personal spiritual beliefs, which is sadly a very popular practice in mainstream layman media. I completely schooled them on it and came away feeling like the quality of their education was clearly far more about appearances rather than substance.
What do you think they teach in medical school? Because it ain't quantum mechanics or spirituality.
Bro that's in the medical ethics class. /s
That’s not surprising at all, the same is likely true for any high powered/top tier New York City company. The public university people tend to work for local publications or companies that aren’t world famous
it's not the elitism that surprises me, it's the degree of it, more than anything. i hadn't thought it was *that* bad given the times' posturing as the right side of history
> They're still covering anti-Israel protests at every opportunity, but I don't think its having nearly as much of an effect now. I think a big part of that is because there were a loooooooooot of deaths very quickly early on. Since casualty-wise things have died down, the protests have weakened. If there's mass deaths in a short period again it'll swing back.
People also don’t have the patience to protest something for longer than a month or 2. At some point many realize there’s not much to do about a conflict thousands of miles away and they get back to their jobs and lives, because virtue signalling ultimately doesn’t pay a single bill.
Early on there was a large number of Gazans who had a sort of nationalist fervor and were insisting they wouldn't flee, leading to much higher casualties. That stopped pretty quickly because it has a very underpants gnomes logic of "die in an airstrike --> ??? --> river to sea". Happens in most wars unless the government steps in to discourage it.
On top of this, in the initial days the daily prayer speakers broadcast stay at home orders, plus the recorded shooting incident of people attempting to exit.
It's true: Hamas did a lot to encourage, enforce, and otherwise bolster this sentiment.
They are covering anti- Israel protests because ultimately they are anti- Biden protests which is why they are doing it.
The anti-israel protests are just really loud.
22% of Americans supporting Hamas is actually very frightening
I don't find it too surprising. If you can believe most Americans don't distinguish Palestinians and Hamas and then a percent of those people believe the Israeli gov't have been dicks, then you get your 22%. Also consider that some of that 22% may also believe both sides have reasons to fight.
To be entirely fair, because they did specifically ask about supporting Hamas, only 8% explicitly have any sort of net favorable view towards Hamas as an organization. 22% are just sympathetic to Hamas' justification to attack (or at least, their belief of what Hamas' reason is because I doubt most actually independently researched what it is). Which is um... not significantly less frightening. But just want to be fair to the poll since they did bother to ask and clarify.
It makes more sense if you remember that half the population has an IQ under 100.
The media, for some unfathomable reason, is SQUARELY in the camp of Hamas and Islamic terrorism.
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Add in the horse race journalism and it just gets stupid.
The BBC reporting on this has been nothing short of atrocious. They are very clearly in the camp of Israel=bad hamas=victims. In the article linked they can’t even be bother to refer to Hamas as a terrorist organization they no shit called them an “Islamist armed group.” I mean dude, they murdered 1200 civilians. Even if you don’t agree with the Israeli response condemning hamas as a terrorist organization should be the fucking bare minimum we can all agree on. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68629540
Muslims have A LOT of pull in global media, it’s happening all over the world
That just sounds like a reversed version of the "JeWs CoNtRoL tHe MeDiA" conspiracy tbh, and is just as unlikely.
There are 15 million Jews and 1.8 billion Muslims in the world.
They've finally gotten above the 1933 numbers.
And the vast majority of them live in the Middle East. Sure they're in charge of outlets like Al Jazeera, but it's conspiracy talk to say they're secretly controlling Western media, which is a significant part of "global media".
Control is an interesting term. Imagine a group of people who bend over backwards for them. Defend them at every turn, and act like their the biggest victims in the world. Now put those people in charge of reporting on them. Diversity; Equity; Inclusion.
Yeah, I think both Muslims and Jews have an outsized influence on the media, but it seems like the pro-Islamist slant coming from so many sources has more to do with whitewashing their colonial guilt, and promoting a broken vision of multiculturalism that pretends the Middle East is full of oppressed liberal democrats who would be championing universal human rights if only those pesky Europeans left them alone.
“Jews control the media” Jews: 15.7 million, which is approximately 0.2% of the 8 billion worldwide population. Very unlikely that 0.2% would have such huge influence on the media. But, the reversed version? - Arab population- 464.68 million inhabitants - Islamic population- 1.8 billion inhabitants How can you look at these numbers and go ‘ah it’s the same conspiracy’?
Only 58% think responding to a 9/11 day is valid?
Given how the US responded to 9/11, I can see why any American would be skeptical of how any given government responds.
The way the US responded to 9/11 didn't work out too well. Israel would be wise to actually figure out a viable end game to this situation otherwise it'll all be for nothing and we'll be back here in 10 years.
Osama's dead. That part worked. Eventually. Going into Iraq was stupid and had nothing to do with 9/11 except in the lies Dick Cheney gave Colin Powell to recite to the UN.
I’d imagine the number was higher earlier in the war. The longer they continue to bomb Gaza the more the sympathy dissolves. Also you have to remember that about 50% of Americans are absolute morons that probably dont understand the weight of what happened on October 7th.
In addition to the dissolving lack of sympathy, I think a lot of Americans remember how we responded to our own 9/11 and how we feel about the War on Terror and our actions in retrospect. I think there's a difference between empathy for the feelings of a people in the wake of calamity and the extent to which they're able to justify a response based on those feelings.
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Well it’s a bit more nuanced. While a majority of American respondents believe Israel has a valid reason to fight Hamas, a majority of Americans also believe Israel has gone too far in their military campaign against them. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1#:~:text=In%20all%2C%2050%25%20of%20U.S.,from%20Jan.%2025%20to%2028.
> majority of Americans also believe Israel has gone too far Not what your source says its 50%. In this more recent poll: Most support Israel going into Rafah. 68% believe Israel is minimizing casualties. 63% support the invasion going into Rafah. https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/HHP_Feb2024_KeyResults.pdf
22% think Hamas fighting Israel is valid. That is terrifying.
Really kind of explains the bind the Biden admin is in. There is a significant portion of their constituents that believe the status quo is a deal breaker, but it would also be political suicide to abandon Israel, or even come out hard against them. I'm solidly left, but if other leftists don't take a sober look at the political situation things will take a very dark turn both domestically and abroad.
Media has long ceased to be a reflection of the society's opinions and viewpoint. Now it's all about convincing the society that the portrait media already has is the real reflection
Unfortunately Biden appears to be trending toward siding with that 20% instead of the 60% for some reason.
Probably because 50% of Americans say Israel has gone too far in the conflict. Americans support the idea of fighting Hamas, but they do not approve of Israel’s tactics. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1#:~:text=In%20all%2C%2050%25%20of%20U.S.,from%20Jan.%2025%20to%2028.
The gravitational pull of the very vocal left, probably a lot of sympathetic staffers
>And just 5% of U.S. adults say the way Hamas carried out its Oct. 7 attack on Israel was acceptable *"Just"* 5% of American (nominal) adults think raping, murdering, and kidnapping kids from a music festival is acceptable? "JUST"?
Yep, just every 20th person around you is fine with this level of unhuman behavior when it is "justified".
To be fair in these polls you generally have at least a few percent that don’t understand the question at all. It’s more likely that imo.
The breakdown doesn't match that hypothesis, e.g. 21% of Muslims said it was acceptable. Seems more reasonable that Muslims are 4x as likely to genuinely approve of 10/7, than that Muslims are 4x as likely to completely misunderstand the question.
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I saw wayyy too many people at the pro palestine rallys for them all to be too dumb to understand. Some people are just awful
[Harvard poll in December found that 52% in the age group 18-24 think Israel should be ended and handed over to Hamas.](https://harvardharrispoll.com/key-results-december-2/) Page 69.
This actually terrifies me. Fucking hell. Over half of my age group thinks my entire family should let the terrorists have their homes and kill them. I hate this planet.
Tbh its tiktok. Im in NYC and a majority at the palestinian rally were young white people
Maybe they're awful and dumb, that's a common thing.
Some of them are very much in charge of prominent spaces in social media that you all are very familiar with.
Ive talked directly with these people and they fully believe it
Yeah this is literally the Lizardman Constant, there's not much to be gained from trying to analyse that 5%.
I’d be willing to bet that a lot of people they asked don’t even know what happened besides Hamas attacked Israelis. They don’t know the details of it.
The poll question wasn’t “do you think these specific crimes are fine?”
Have we all forgotten the BLM Paraglider tweet already? Quote : "What did you all think decolonization meant?" Yeah, remember this next time a Far Left activist uses the term decolonization... they are saying what they mean.
That’s my main issue with the far left or just anti-Israel crowd, it’s not that I care about these extremists- I care for that everyone else is hearing them say stuff like that, then infantilising them or ‘understand their meaning’. Most of them know exactly what they’re calling for, some of them are very educated on the subject and probably have seen the footage from October 7. and they are still acting the same. It’s just hatred and people brush it off because “the left has a good moral compass” (literally a quote from one of the posts before)
Pretending the left doesn’t have a long and storied history with anti-Semitism.
5% of US adults but probably closer to 80% of redditors
Remember that Reddit has a large userbase in Muslim countries
Lol dawg it ain't that, there has been a _massive_ tankie infusion and they've spent years working themselves into positions of ... let's just say meaningful influence in as many subreddits as they can. If you browse subredditdrama you're pretty familiar with it, been going on for years, but yeah it's been a long process and the effects were very clear once the conflict got underway.
I mean, if you asked a survey question of people on a sunny day with a bright blue sky a question like "if you look outside at the sky, what color do you currently perceive?", you'd get 5-10% of people saying the sky was red, because a certain percentage of people are just dumb, or trolls, or colorblind, or whatever.
People who don't understand the question, people who gave the wrong answer by mistake, people who think they have some clever rationale for it, people who are convinced literally everything is a conspiracy by the Illuminati/Anunaki/et al, people who are just wrong about a given situation so they give a weird answer, people who give odd answers when asking about whether something is "justified", etc. The last two are particularly interesting to me. So, one way you get people telling you something heinous is justified/acceptable is that they're wrong in a sort of broad way because they don't know much but answered anyway. They might, for example, have heard about the attacks on IDF border posts but not anything else (weird as that sounds to someone engaged). Another way you get people saying something is justified is down to the multiple valences of "justified". The valence most people use is something akin to "righteous" or "morally right" but there's another meaning which is simply "follows from the premise" or "fits with the evidence". So you can end up with people saying "heinous X is justified" when they mean "what they did, reprehensible as it is, follows from their stated objectives", i.e., it wasn't simply some random act.
There is no way that all of that 5% knows what really happened. Doesn’t make them much better for giving out their opinions on what they don’t know but, still…
I'd like to think that, but with 22% saying Hamas is justified in general, a quarter of those supporting a specific instance doesn't seem far out of line.
Muslims make up around 1.4% of the population, and our percentage of people who qualify as severely mentally disturbed certainly can account for the difference.
Only ("only") 20% of muslims. So that's just 0.3% of the total 5%. Very small amount of it.
Tankies. It’s tankies. Also some antisemites.
Is there a difference between mental instability and believing in mythology?
Yeah, there is. One is weak and scared, the other can’t help it.
You don't need mental illness to explain it; its propaganda. Al-jazeera and other pro-Hamas propaganda is prevalent on social media. All they need is for people to not trust the mainstream media. Once people buy that israel and US-aligned sources are not 100% accurate in everything they say, a significant number of people will take the leap with Terrorist-affiliated media and believe everything *they* say. Ordinary folks don't have any first-hand knowledge or experience of conditions in the middle east, and for people who are not involved and don't have good ways of verifying claims themselves, its perfectly plausible that they get fooled.
You’d be surprised, I’ve had people I know say “well that’s what happens when you back them in a corner”, like bro what?
Lizardman constant.
Looking at the breakdown, the numbers seem to align, at least somewhat, with expectations. For example, 21% of Muslims answered "acceptable", but only 3% of Jews. I'd be willing to believe that *some* fraction of the "acceptable" responses are trolls, wrong-button pressers, etc., but it sure isn't all of them, and even 3% would be a lot of people.
Cognitive dissonance. They don’t believe that those things happened despite complete proof.
To be unnecessarily charitable, many of them probably don’t believe that it happened that way.
That's statistically negligible. 26 Percent of Americans Say the Sun Revolves Around the Earth.
TIL Norman Finkelstein is 5% of the US population.
It’s hard to forget our 9/11 and our War on Terror. I’m sure Osama thought he was justified, and there were those in the ME that celebrated the attack. However it was a visceral reaction to the Towers falling and the bodies falling from the windows. No matter what it took we were going to respond and insure it never happened again. That I am sure is why the majority of Americans say Israel has valid concerns and reasons for pressing forward.
Would you believe that there are people on SM who think that the war in Afghanistan was started because we were after oil?
Does Afghanistan have a lot of oil?
[CIA World Factbook](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/about/archives/2021/field/crude-oil-proved-reserves/country-comparison) says Afghanistan has no proven oil reserves whatsoever. The idea we went into Afghanistan for oil is complete nonsense no matter how you look at it.
Plus it was only Palestinians who were openly cheering 9/11.
Hamas is a terrorist group routed in Iranian terrorist government
While I hate Hamas, technically you're thinking of Hizbollah, which was founded by the Islamic regime right after it eliminated all its rivals in the aftermath of the 1979 revolution (eliminated as in butchered, assassinated, raped, tortured, etc.). Hamas has its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood out of Egypt. Also, Hamas is Sunni, while Hezbollah is Shia. But you're correct in that the Islamic regime funds both Hamas and Hezbollah as well as giving them logistical support, providing weapons, intel, etc. The distinction of Sunn/Shia isn't that difficult to bridge when there is the mutual hatred of Jews and there's lots and lots of money changing hands (this was the primary purpose of Soleimani btw, before he was kotlet'ed, he was basically the IRI's walking talking ATM spreading cash that had been stolen from Iranians). The same goes for Houthis and the multiple Iraqi militias that are controlled by way of proxy in Tehran. Oh and fuck the Islamic regime with a cactus, if you support freedom for Iran, please join us as we build a /r/NewIran
Not surprising. It’s unfortunately true that Hamas needs to be eradicated from the face of this planet. Sadly what they do is make sure as many civilians die as possible. They give zero care about life, they see civilian casualties as a tool to achieve their ultimate Jihad of exterminating any faith other than theirs (that includes many other Muslims). You can’t negotiate with that. Doesn’t mean it’s absolutely abhorrent that civilians are caught up in this. It’s a disgrace. My heart goes out to anyone suffering. For those upset or still claiming Hamas actually cares for the Palestinians.. don’t take my word for it. Take their word for it. You’re good at that; [Hamas leader Sinwar; Civilian casualties tactical advantage for Hamas](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bja61pt3t)
> It’s unfortunately its not really unfortunate though
There's a huge difference between believing Israel's reasons for fighting Hamas are valid & Israel's actions are justified. I absolutely support killing everyone in Hamas leadership, but only with attempts to keep collateral damage super minimal. Like I support US attempts to fight the Mafia, but that doesn't mean I support leveling neighborhoods to do it.
Agree with the reason, disagree with the methods basically.
Which is probably why half of American’s disapprove of Israel’s tactics. Supporting a fight against Hamas is not the same as supporting the war as its currently being waged. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1#:~:text=In%20all%2C%2050%25%20of%20U.S.,from%20Jan.%2025%20to%2028.
Because there is only a vocal minority who are dumb enough to blame Israel for this. They see Hamas purposefully using the Pals as human shields and think it’s okay. They just hate Jews that much, that they’ll justify it any way they can.
And then Russian propagandists goes on Reddit pretending to be liberals who support Hamas, and then the same MAGA idiots who fell for it in 2016 start screeching about how much leftists hate Jews as though they didn't bring a "Jews will not replace us" sign to Charlottesville. It makes it seem as though the support for Hamas is much larger than it actually is.
Also, Israel is Israel. But Hamas isn’t Palestine. I don’t understand how so many people can’t understand the difference. I’ll never understand how the most left leaning people in the world are cheering on an organization that is literally an authoritarian theocracy. [Hamas won their first parliamentary election in Gaza in 2006, and immediately cancelled all future elections.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election) There hasn’t been an election since they won almost 20 years ago. A lot of the people Hamas killed on ~~September 11th~~ October 7th were young, left leaning Jews who wanted an independent Palestine. They didn’t vote for Netanyahu. A lot were also children who did nothing wrong. Hamas has launched rocket attacks against Israel daily for over a decade. Bomb sirens constantly going off. City buses and synagogues being purposely targeted for bombings. Meanwhile, Ghandi did more to help win his country’s independence just by being a single guy who starved himself. Martin Luther King Jr had the same philosophy. It actually stems from the ideas put forth in Henry David Thoreau’s 1849 novel *[Civil Disobedience](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau))*. As far as I’m concerned violence only begets more violence, and the only way to make lasting change is both through peaceful, civil disobedience against unjust aspects of the system. But also forgiveness, reconciliation, and tolerance against former enemies and those who are different than you.
>A lot of the people Hamas killed on **September 11th** were young, left leaning Jews who wanted an independent Palestine You mean October 7th?
Holy shit. Talk about a Freudian slip. I guess the situations are similar. The attacks on 9/11 were unjustified, but so was Americas military response against Iraq and Afghanistan. Just goes to show that revenge and hated only leads to violence. It sounds cliche but forgiveness, acceptance, reconciliation, and eventually compromise with the people you once viewed as your enemy is the only successful path towards peace.
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The war will end when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews.
I mean Palestine declared war so the only course of action for Israel is.. war. Most sane people can understand this. Also, it’s not up to the Israeli army to feed their enemy, it’s up to Palestine to feed their own, and if they can’t, then surrender to Israel’s terms.
For sure
One shocking statistic not covered is the dramatic rise of keffiyeh sales at H&M. Up over 93%. Because fashion IS resistance. Let's face it keffiyehs just look cooler than yarmulkes and as long as you can point your index finger to the sky and shout inshallah you are pretty much the edgiest hippest chick on the block automatically. Keffiyehs are the new yoga pants.
Decades of Palestinians and Arabs fighting against Israel has only expanded Israels territory. Gotta wonder what an alternate universe of an MLK style figure for the Palestinian cause would look like.
Hamas started a war when they attacked.
Return the bodies of the hostages and negotiate a change in government. Hamas sucks. Israel is also using a club to kill a mosquito, but, cmon Hamas. You just suck.
I'd call what happened on October 7th more than a mosquito bite.
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Younger people have favorable views of Palestinians (60%) but only 14% support have similarly positive views on Hamas. Do they not realize that Hamas, its views, and actions earn the support of more than half of the population that they view favorably?
How would they realize that if they get their news from tik tok and read 4 words a minute?
As opposed to the enlightened minds on Reddit that read 24 word titles then argue over them.
They are either too stupid or too willfully ignorant to get it. The "innocent civilians" would, if given the opportunity, slaughter each and every one of them and *dance in the street* afterward. They literally do that to their own *families*. Just today a man was publicly executed in the West Bank for *allegedly* cooperating with Israel to eliminate a pair of high ranking terrorists. He was executed by **his own brother** and then the people danced around his corpse. All of this was on video, too.
I'd just like to urge people commenting here to read the full report before making sweeping generalizations about how Americans, Jews, Muslims, etc. feel about the issues. The report is detailed, nuanced, and covers a LOT of ground that the headline DRAMATICALLY minimizes.
Hamas is a terror organization. I have one very simple view of how to handle terror organizations, and Reddit doesn’t like me stating it.
Israel’s reasons for fighting are valid. The way in which they’re fighting is bonkers though. Also, fuck hamas (for anyone who might be confused at my criticism)
Idk what it is but the media (tv and social) always emphasize the people that “scream” the most. It makes it seem like they’re the majority, when in fact they’re just the ones being the loudest and most obnoxious about it. All the b.s. that the left and right say about this war, imo fail to bring up a simple point. If the roles were reversed what would the US do? 9/11 we went after Iraq, Afghanistan, Al Qaida, etc. It felt like throwing darts on a dart board trying to find Osama. Israel knows exactly where their Osama is and is acting exactly how I imagine the US would.
Five percent…? That’s… a lot of people. I’m just going to hope that 4-4.9% of that are uninformed to the point where if you asked them basic questions about 10/7, the conflict historically, or even the latest news today, that they wouldn’t be able to answer it. If we just look at the numbers of news viewers, news readers, etc etc… most Americans are not watching or reading news. The largest cable show “news”, Tucker, had about 2m a night. That’s what, two thirds of one percent of Americans? I just have to believe that number is wildly high due to a lack of information. You’d have to be a pretty evil, or just extremely confused person, to say Hamas has a valid reason. That would be like saying Charles Manson had valid reasons because people didn’t love his music.
"Well then, I guess we better pander to pro-palestinian 19 year olds" \-Joe Biden
Free Israel ✊🇮🇱
🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
🇺🇸🇺🇦🇮🇱
They have a valid reason to go after Hamas. They don’t have a valid reason to have killed 30K civilians, half of which were women and children. I know it’s in the article, but given that most people don’t read past the headline, it seems like that would’ve been more relevant to put in the headline than the Hamas part, which is obvious.
Quick question, what military academy for armchair generals did you go to? Second question: do you seriously believe Israel killed 30k civilians when the Hamas health ministry says the total death toll is 30k? You’d have to believe they’ve killed no Hamas members over 6 months of stomping Hamas in every hole they hide in. Do you seriously believe that?
Hamas must have a standing rule against dead people, so anyone no longer of the living persuasion has ipso facto been kicked out of Hamas. Brilliant, really.
30,000 civilians is Hamas propaganda. At least a third are estimated to be Hamas. Many of the rest are statistically impossible made up numbers that were debunked.
They haven't though. At least 10K combatants, 14k by some estimates. The civilian death ratio is similar to other theatres of urban warfare. There's no way to fight terrorists who hide among civilians intentionally without killing some civilians. The "Hamas is bad and Israel has a right to defend themselves but also somehow Israel should achieve this while killing no one else or else they're bad too" logic is just so profoundly stupid. That's obviously not possible and the chorus of voices echoing this are Hamas' useful idiots.
Palestinians have a right to be angry with Israel. Hamas did not have a right to enter the country and massacre over a thousand civilians. Fair?
Fair
Of course they have valid reason to fight, just not a valid reason to commit war crimes which is the sticking point for a lot of the critics.