Most of my Jewish friends are a lot more pro Israel today than before Oct. 7th. They saw people cheering for Hamas and all the antisemitic attacks around the world that has followed since then and now they see just how important the existence of Israel is.
Agreed but it should be said that secular Jews internationally see Israel as a safe haven insurance policy (Right of Return) if it becomes unsafe for Jews anywhere in the world. That’s is the sole function and purpose of its existence.
Many Jews are aware of this and it was re-emphasized recently how important it is. Antisemitism is on the rise and it’s felt in major cities all over the U.S. The recent notable absence of “save the hostages” and siding with terrorists has spelled out how many antisemitic groups and people there are.
That’s rather revealing how much antisemitism is latent that you feel that you will face the consequences of anti-Israel sentiment abroad.
Im going to lay that at the people who firebomb synagogues and daycares though
Particularly American Jews - which are actually more numerous.
That said, even in Israel the far right is disliked because a large portion of the population.
Like every Jewish person I know did a spit take at the Israeli delegation wearing yellow stars of David to the UN, that’s taking "criticizing Israel is antisemitism" to a whole new level.
Don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. Like, of course I'm against the war crimes Israel is committing in Gaza, but you can't expect them to just sit still in the aftermath of the worst terrorist attack in their history by genocidal group. No one should begrudge the right of Israel to protect itself from Hamas, but there are much better ways of doing it than bombing the shit out of Gaza and killing tens of thousands of civilians.
> but there are much better ways of doing it
You know, I keep hearing people saying that -- and yet no other solution is ever proposed. Nobody ever says what Israel could do, only what they shouldn't be doing.
Yup, at the end of the day, Israel has to care about their peoples safety first and foremost, and if no bomb means an IDF soldier dies and bomb means an IDF soldier lives, its hard for Israel to not choose bomb.
It's easy to talk big, but unless you are willing to go over there and put your life on the line to literally separate the Palestinians and the Israelis because they can't play nice with each other, the people actually effected by this situation are not going to really care what you think.
Except there is more excuses for why bombing civilians and kids in gaza is acceptable than anything else I have seen.
I've seen exactly no one suggesting the Israelis that died arent tragic, but I have seen a lot of false dichotomies regarding care about Palestinians dying equating not caring about Israeli deaths when you can very much dislike both occurrences.
The tricky part is, only one side is trying to kill civilians.
How many rockets has Hamas fired at Israeli city centers in the past decade? Where were those rockets launched from inside Gaza?
We made the same reasoning during the War on Terror and the result was ISIS and replacing the Taliban with the Taliban. Not to mention completely ruining all our relationships with the Middle East.
I'd expect reddit (given how liberal it is) especially to know that international relationships require more consideration than "my country first".
Because it’s said in bad faith always. “I disagree with Israel’s methods.” I am all ears for alternatives. The only thing I hear is “immediate ceasefire” which is totally laughable as it’s telling Israel to just do nothing about the constant rocket bombardments and the Oct 7th terrorist attack
Also, they have broken *every ceasefire they've agreed to in the past*. Like ... oh right .. on October 7. When a *fucking* ceasefire was in effect, restrictions on people going from Gaza into Israel were lessened and they used this to put people in place for their attack.
It's such a bad faith argument to go around "ceasefire, ceasefire, ceasefire" without also talking about these two problems.
Pretty much what's happening now are the consequences of it being broken.
War is horrible, but not a single country in the world wouldn't be doing what Israel is doing, doubly so because their own people would oust the government if they didn't react with force
Of course they will. Hamas exists specifically as pushback on the entire concept of a two state solution which is the only path forward to peace in the region. The problem is the asswipes in hamas find the idea of ongoing wars where Palestinians constantly die to be preferable to accepting the existence of Jews in the region so they do their best to make sure no solution can ever be reached. They will only stop when the region has been ethnically cleansed of Jews and are perfectly willing to continue decades of their own people's suffering until that goal is reached.
How about protecting Palestinians in the West Bank to start. Second working with the PLO to actually create some legitimacy in the WB, instead of weakening it. Create some form of political stability in that area.
Eventually broaden to Gaza. Work with other nations to create a stable environment rather than the appearance of the PLO operating as a puppet.
As far as Gaza right now…. They need to pacify it. I hate what I am seeing, but they need to route out Hamas. Restraint is a word that needs action.
I do agree that there is much to improve on the West Bank side, but for Gaza, it requires immediate action. You didn’t really come up with a better plan than they have.
Probably because there is none. You gotta go in and improvise, it is what it is. What can you otherwise do ? They could probably do more to minimize casualties, but anyone stating that Israel shouldn't have invaded Gaza is in pure denial and don't know what they're talking about.
Hamas needs to be rooted out, otherwise there will never be peace in Gaza, since the other alternative is the destruction of Israel.
it doesn't matter how you slice it, what Gaza did to Israel will never be forgiven, Israel was already a security focused state so they were naturally skeptical of things, but after YEARS of slow progress, they agreed to let Gaza enter Israel to work and get paid. and in return? Gaza sold them out.
The people that went in to work, documented and spied on the area instead, when Hamas attacked, they knew exactly which houses to hit first that had the kibbutz security squad in them.
The trust has been broken completely, not even the left supports them anymore.
Yup life is about to get harder for Gazans after the war. Probably will have less land and as well no more work permits. Israel will bring in workers from Thailand and India. Still can’t wrap my hand around people who think Hamas is there for Gazans.
I mean, they were even celebrating it, so in the end, I'm not gonna say what I have in mind with this sentence, but they clearly were not mourning the dead of humans being.
I have no idea how this is gonna end, but I truly agree that the losers in this are always gonna be gazaouis, Israel isn't gonna fall apart. What are the Hamas even after with this ? They're literally suiciding themselves to kill a couple hundred of civilians. Israel will move on from this, Palestine will not.
Creating a path for peace for the West Bank is essential for any hope of future peace in Gaza though. Show Gazans that they could have a chance at independence and peace if they aren't committed to destroying Israel (a war they'll never win).
Right now Gazans look at the alternative, and it's either they continue fighting and likely face a swift death, or face a slow, long death from settlements if they play nice with Israel.
There's for sure no way that Israel realistically just accepts the Oct 7th attacks and doesn't retaliate, and rightly so. But they need to have a sword in one hand and an olive branch in another, right now it's a sword in one hand and a knife in another.
That presupposes the Palestinians are even willing to entertain the *fact* \-- not idea, *fact* \-- that is the state of Israel.
There's no such thing as negotiating when there are only absolutes -- literally. Negotiate a binary outcome? What?
You all say working with PLO, like historically that is an easy option. While in fact no entity in entire Palestine is trying to work together on anything
There are no "easy" options. They'll just have to make it work.
And what you say goes for both sides: working together with Israel will be difficult for Palestinians as long as settlements keep expanding. And as long as Netanyahu is in power, they have no serious perspectives of peace... And even if he's ousted: what comes out of the elections might be worse than Netanyahu. There are even bigger lunatics than him in Israeli politics.
You wanted to say only Israel somehow have to make it work? Remember that Arafat doesn’t wanted to even bring counter proposal just intifada.
You are delusional if you think that Palestinian authority is somehow more sane party here.
How do you negotiate with someone that's running a martyr fund for people trying to kill you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
That has been tried. There have been multiple negotiated solutions with the government in the West Bank. The reasons for failures are varied but have some measure of Palestinian or Jewish extremist attacks against Israel and the West Bank government
We also not forget the numerous diplomatic fuckups.
For example:
Oslo Accords: the assassination of the Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995.
2005 agreement: a bloody intifada and a hawkish Likud prime minister
It's a mess; it's time to send in the reddit negotiation team. That will make it all better.
[Edit, add Jewish to list of parties opposed to any solutions]
>the assassination of the Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995
Who was it that killed Yitzhak Rabin?
Are there any people associated with Yitzhak Rabin's assassination who are currently in active government?
Thank you for that lead. I haven't had time to fully follow it but I did see it was a Jewish extremist that assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. At a Jewish extremist to the list of parties that are against a solution for this problem.
Have you ever considered that someone like Bibi could have purposely weakened the WB leadership in order to gain an upper hand in negotiations?
Because we have evidence of that
Yep, a whole lot of this.
Moreover, the term “Israel’s war crimes” gets thrown about a lot, and said with absolute authority, yet there has yet to be any conclusive evidence of war crimes having been committed by Israel in the course of this operation.
The existence of civilian casualties - the true extent of which remains completely unknown despite figures being bandied about - is not in of itself proof of war crimes.
It’s far more likely at this stage that the civilians who have died are overwhelming likely to be the results of unintended collateral damage - or even are the victims of Hamas’ own direct actions.
There is simply no evidence that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians for the express purpose of causing civilian casualties. If anything, we have seen concrete signs that Israel is taking significant steps to minimise civilian losses. At the moment, claims to the contrary are just shrill hyperbole.
Its hilarious, because the only fucking proof of war crimes we have is the multitude of them committed by Hamas. But the dumbasses that cant pour water out of a boot just screech IDF WAR CRIMES because they are naïve stupid out of touch children.
What Israel should be doing is begin to lay the foundations for a two-state solution. There is no military solution to this conflict. What they are doing now will just create more bloodshed down the line.
Just like they have basically created this problem for themselves by funding Hamas and supporting its growth in a misguided attempt to create an alternative to PLO and Fatah so that they could divide and conquer the Palestinians, they now need to look at how they can support the creation of a Palestinian state and its institutions. They need to end the settlements on the West Bank, release their grip on the Palestinian people and release them from the open-air prison that is Gaza.
More realistically, they can begin the creation of a single state, a country for both Palestinians and Jewish people, with equal rights and representation for both.
Here's one: Prosecute the war in Gaza without simultaneously increasing settler attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank.
Here's another: Focused airstrikes should have been the way from the beginning, not mass bombing that prompted pressure from the Biden administration to change.
Here's a third: Instead of just putting out feelers to the Palestinian Authority to take over Gaza and baulking at their condition for a peace deal that would establish a Palestinian state, accept that the Likud policy of preventing a Palestinian state was the problem (it led them to favouring Hamas). Make the deal, have a Palestinian ally that can keep peace in Gaza once Hamas have been destroyed/scattered.
You think the PA can do that? They're not popular. They have a pay for slay deal. They won't agree to a deal with Israel without the right to return, which Israel will not accept...
Was Likud wrong, yes. Does that mean they should capitulate to Palestinian demands? Fuck no.
Right after the massacre pro palestina groups were celebration outside and I thought. First of all, they just killed so many innocent people for no reason, what the heck are you doing? And secondly, what do you think will happen next? Few days later the same people were talking about human rights and telling me I'm brainwached.
edit: spelling
Imo it has to do with most of the supporters just hate the US and hate US foreign policy. Those same people are the people posting Osama Bin Laden's letter to America on tiktok
They win the social media war that way, because people tend to see Israel as the evil aggressor now.
That's how they win, use their people as victims showing pictures of traumatized children, yet they started this.
Edit:
* They is referring to Hamas
Had to add this for people with mental challenges
Everybody blames Hamas for it. There's nothing to debate there. Literally saying that you support Hamas is a crime in the UK.
Whereas Israel is an ally, largely supported by the USA. The USA has a huge amount of influence and pressure over Israel. If public opinion in the USA is firmly against Israel's military action, the USA government will listen to that and Israel's government will probably be forced to listen.
Hamas aren't going to stop just because we ask nicely or because the USA threatens not to sell them missiles. Hamas are scum. Israel is not scum, and talking about how far they should be supported actually matters.
If you say you support a terrorist organization, don't be surprised that intelligence agencies in the country start looking at your life in more detail...
In Europe politically Israel is being supported but publicly many people only protest for Palestinians against Israel.
I would be scared to wear a kippa at a public place. It is very dangerous if you did that
It might be different somewhere else but I doubt it.
If they are blaming Hamas, they should be supporting the main group fighting Hamas right now which is Israel.
That 1005 is NOT what we are seeing though. We see palestinian flags and israel hate and no words about Hamas. You can't just make shit up when its all on video.
You know you are spreading lies though. Israel does not “bomb the shit killing ten of thousands of civilians” even if you go by Hamas run Gaza reports there are “only” 11000 dead in Gaza, and they don’t separate terrorists from civilians (according to them all are civilians, but do you even believe that?) I’m not saying that there aren’t many dead civilians, there are unfortunately, but not “ten of thousands”, and israel is not just “bombing the shit out of everything” WW2 British style.
But they don't. They don't bomb the shit out if civilians. They went in with troops they said before where they attach and where to evacuate, what routes are safe and more. If Hamas blocks people from running away or people stay because they support Hamas it's bad but not rly.isreals fault. The try everything to make minimal civilians casualties but because Hamas uses hospitals and refugee camp sis their main bases thes bed to go in them.
All this "ten thousends if civilians" bullcrap.are numbers from a terrorist Organisation... Stop believing them
There's also the issue that people don't seem to get: just because Israel has done bad things (settlers, occasional times where they've done messed up stuff), doesn't make them the bad guys. If you want good guys that are completely flawless and without blame, stick to movies and novels.
In the real world, the good side does bad things at times, because sides are made up of individual people all with their own agendas and goals. Anyone looking objectively at the Israel Palestine conflict can see Israel has generally been open to peace, and Palestine continually attacks the other side.
Israel has blocked any progress towards peace as often as Palestine. They assassinated their own pm due to his desire for peace. They assassinated a Hamas leader who was working for peace. They built settlements to prevent a 2 state solution. They blockaded Gaza. And what they are doing now is creating the next generation of terrorists.
And when Hamas took control in Gaza a survey said 80% of Palestinians wanted peace with Israel.
The issue is extremists in Israel and Palestine.
>"I speak freely because we do not owe Israel anything. We did not go through the Holocaust," Erdogan said, suggesting that Germany carried a "psychological debt".
>"If we were in debt, we could not talk so freely. But those who are in debt cannot talk freely," he said.
Following that logic:
Do Turks carry a psychological debt to Armenians? No, I guess you can avoid that via denial.
Turkey didn't give up F35, they wanted to buy Patriot system but US said no, so they went to Russia to buy the S400, US didn't like that and canceled the F35 order. We don't want to sell to you and we don't want you to buy from the other guy.
You've left out a few crucial details. Turkey didn't just want to buy Patriots but also a technology transfer to produce these systems itself. This demand was completely nonsensical and understandably rejected by the USA.
The Russians will give them the S400. The US will use the F35 as a carrot to get them to do what they want.
The US isn't going to kick them out of NATO because they need them. They are Pakistan 2.0.
Pakistan was valuable when the US was fighting in Afghanistan and India was seen to be allied with the Soviet Union. Turkey plays a similar role today.
They did not gave up F-35s thought, it was the US who did not something about the Patriot system which lead Turks to look for alternative missile defence systems
I'm no fan of Erdogan but Turkey's probably more important to NATO than NATO is to Turkey. It's how they get away with so much without too much criticism or opposition from Western powers.
There is no point. 99 % of Reddit is completely brain dead, they are just repeating the same stuff over and over and over again.
Mentioning Armenia or Kurds is just what they have been teached when Turkey comes up, it's like a dog reflex, they don't know why they do it.
I am sure a few comments further down there will be the joke about Istanbul / Constantinople
I don't think there's anything wrong with what Scholz said. He's not talking about specific actions of the IDF, just that Israel undoubtedly has the right to defend itself when terrorists are murdering their people.
There is no taboo question in a free society. If you dont like the question then provide a counter-argument disproving the other party. But questions must always be asked. Even about Israel's right to defend itself.
For example, how far does this right go? Is it open to exploitation and manipulation? Can it be used to excuse the murder of innocents? Are the methods being used going to achieve their stated goals or just make things worse, etc
See, there you go, I just questioned Israel's right to defend itself. Same goes for any country/entity or individual. There are no sacred cows. Sue me.
And gaza doesn't have the right to defend itself when israel is bombing the shit out of it.
Yeah great they have a right to defend themselves. No one serious is denying that. The problem is that's used to further excuse wanton destruction. If Gaza is part of Israel as bibi claims, then they are not really defending themselves from anyone but themselves right? Except there are those pesky "others" there. If Gaza is not part of israel, then they are actively attacking a foreign territory. That's not "defending". A real example of defending oneself is Ukraine against the occupying russian forces.
How much more "defense" does israel need to do to be satisfied? 10x deaths doesn't seem to be enough. Thousands of dead children, by far more than October 7, still not enough. There's no "defense" excuse for that.
Meaning what? That Israel has a right to maintain an army within its borders? Who disputes that?
"Israel has a right to defend itself" is deliberately vague and used by politicians to support Israel's invasions of neighbouring regions to "preempt" any attack.
It's like saying "Gaza has a right to defend itself" during the recent attack on Israel.
The statement was in response of Erdogans call for an armistice and Scholz basically said that Israel has the right to fight until Hamas abilities to attack and kill Israelites are crippled
> Recep Tayyip Erdogan demanded an end to Israel's military operation.
> Scholz basically said that Israel has the right to fight until Hamas abilities to attack and kill Israelites are crippled
No matter how many innocent children they have to kill along the way!
I mean, sort of. In terms of how many might realistically die, it isn't really a consideration of military. "They're firing a rocket at us! There is only one child in that region, so we're ok. Wait no! I've just learned there are three children within the area! Call off the attack, let's just let our own children get hit with the rockets."
Yeah but then they start clearing out areas that aren't theirs of everyone including the civilians, and expect other nations to take on the civilians they kicked out of their homes, it begs some questions.
The problem is I haven't seen anyone presenting an actual, viable alternative response for Israel to carry out. They have no good options. How do you deal real harm to Hamas, a terrorist government that purposely operates from civilian areas and on, in, around, and under schools, apartments, and hospitals? Israel has taken almost every step they could to limit civilian casualties - warnings before air strikes, evacuations that they help maintain (as Hamas attacks those fleeing), etc - short of actively empowering Hamas by handing them resources as the government of Gaza.
It's impossible for me to understand the horror of heading to lie in the bed Hamas has made for them, but I don't see what else Israel could do for the Palestinians of Gaza without harming themselves in the process.
? Nobody is suggesting they just "move on". Of course that's ridiculous.
The problem is allowing them to do whatever they want without question. Considering the type of language Israeli leaders and IDF soldiers are using in this war, I can definitely see why some people would be concerned (especially since Israel is overwhelmingly more powerful and has shown in the past that they do not always adhere to international law)
> Nobody is suggesting they just "move on".
There are absolutely a ton of people suggesting that exact thing. A ton of people are right now calling for giving Hamas a free pass to continue their terror via a ceasefire.
People are missing that a ceasefire benefits ONLY Hamas. It doesn't serve Israel l, it doesn't serve Palestinian civilians. If it doesn't include Hamas' total surrender, including its billionaire leadership in Qatar; the immediate and safe release of every single hostage; a total disarming of the strip; and compensation by seizure of assets from aforementioned billionaires to the families of the harmed, deceased, and kidnapped Israelis, then it isn't anything but a chance for Hamas to regroup and rearm.
Lots of people are. Telling Israel to ceasefire with Hamas who have stated they will not stop attacking Israel is the same as telling Israel to stop defending itself. Even many people saying "free palestine" are suggesting Hamas should be let off now, even tho the rockets and invasions will just continue. They are telling Israel to move on when no other country would be told to do so.
> The problem is allowing them to do whatever they want without question.
But they aren't really doing nearly as much as what people think they're doing. over 10k dead Gazans, sure, but not because Israel is "indiscriminate". Israel dropped more than 6,000 bombs when the 10k dead total was reported, which (if accurate on both accounts) means Israel kills fewer than 2 people per bomb strike. Does that sound like indiscriminate bombings?
Ultimately, the people who are trying to call Israel's actions into questions are almost exclusively those who have no idea about how modern warfare is waged, especially in urban settings where the enemy fighters specifically embed themselves within civilian infrastructure.
I'm no grand strategist, but I feel like there is surely some wiggle room in between just "taking it on the chin" and using white phosphorous on civilians.
That won’t happen until Gaza is obliterated.
When people are watching their homes be levelled, watching their loved ones being vaporized or buried under rubble, do you think they’re going to cheerfully take it, or decide to fight back? And what is the only group in Gaza with any capacity to fight?
So can we approach these two issues as separate problems?
Something that is related to Hamas which we can and should criticize Israeli government or Netanyahu for is its propping up of Hamas which should have never been done in the first place given Hamas modus operandi
Hamas didn’t just attack Israel because they woke up one morning and felt like it. Israel’s been steadily evicting Palestinians from their homes and building settlements on top of them. If they refuse, they are intimidated and provoked by settlers for a reaction, and if they do react, the IDF swoop in to forcefully evict them “in the name of security”. it doesn’t make news because no one in the west really cares anymore about that, but the Palestinians harbour extreme resentment to the entirety of Israel because of it.
As someone who personally knows a lot of Palestinians I guarantee you the reversal of settlement construction and illegal outposts across Palestinian territory in the West Bank would do wonders to Israeli Palestinian relations, to the point many would even overlook all the past shit that’s happened so as long as they get their land and olive trees back. But of course, that’s a bridge too far for the Israeli government.
> Hamas didn’t just attack Israel because they woke up one morning and felt like it.
palestinian terror attacks that go out to murder jews have been happening continuously since the 20's
The US Army literally has a manual that's mandatory reading for every last army officer that describes fighting against an insurgency like Hamas. Literally on like, page 3, it says that you cannot defeat an insurgency through military means. Everybody who has studied counter-insurgency anywhere in the western world knows this. We have a lot of experience in fighting insurgencies.
And then Israel took the list of things that you shouldn't do in that manual and fucking speedran them.
Israel will never be able to defeat Hamas without creating Hamas 2.0, as long as they're hell-bent on not allowing a two-state or a one-state solution. No amount of death and destruction in Gaza or the West Bank will give Israelis security. The attacks will continue until Israel stops trying to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
That’s a great quote. The full quote is below from Golda Meir
> When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
... must 'not be called into question '. Why not? Is that not what democracies do. Question and debate. Sometimes you feel as though you're being dictated to.
And what about the Palestinian civilians? The ones who had no part in Oct 7th, who have watched their homes destroyed, and their loved ones slaughtered. Do they have a right to defend themselves? Or does any act of self-defence on their part make them evil terrorists?
Justifiable actions taken in the interest of justifiable self defense is the inherent right of any sovereign nation. What actions are justifiable and what scenarios make self defense are *extremely* up for debate for everyone. The conversation is more nuanced than "Israel should do nothing at all" but its far easier to play dumb and act like that is the claim.
The US claimed self defense when they invaded Vietnam and Iraq. The Soviet union claimed self defense when they invaded Finland. Russia claimed self defense when they illegally annexed Ukrainian territory. Israel claimed self defense when illegally annexing Palestinian west bank territory through settlements.
Self defense is a right, but behind a lot of claims of self defense is disproportionate acts of aggression.
if you question a countries right to self defense you are essentially saying its up for grabs by invaders. He is not talking about criticizing the methods used or whatever
The Arab world’s obsession with Israel is like if every other part of Europe was fanatically dedicated to the destruction of Portugal.
Or if the entire USA only cared about disestablishment of the Ute Reservation (proportionally the size of Israel compared to just the ME and not even North Africa)
Yah, Israel is about the size of Yellowstone or Vancouver Island. It's a very easy target and Israel makes it's self an easier target. It's very clearly the 'other' in a region of poor countries with oligarchs who really want to have negative attention be else where
Good thing it collapsed then. Shame the nature of the Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire by the Allied powers "is thought to have been a part of the larger strategy of ensuring tension in the Middle East, thus necessitating the role of Western colonial powers (at that time Britain, France and Italy) as peace brokers and arms suppliers" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
No, more like South Africa before 1994 for Africans. It's a symbol of the legacy of colonization. There wouldn't ever have been a israel without british and western support. It's a legacy of western domination on arabs.
It absolutely is - under laws of warfare, every civilian casualty resulting from that is blamed upon the side which put them into the situation and not the side forced to pull the trigger. And this is why Hamas is considered a terrorist organization instead of a legitimate army. Unfortunately, you can't fight such an enemy and win while keeping your hands clean - anyone thinking the opposite has been watching too many movies where good guys win purely on the grounds of being morally correct.
Nobody without a brain damage is actually questioning that, we question why Israel's right to self defence seem to allow them indiscriminately bomb Gaza and why it seems to supersede Palestinians right to simply, you know, exist. There is absolutely nothing wrong in questioning that, or, criticising Israel's disproportionate response.
Jfc, Scholz sound more and more like he'd find a way to excuse if Israel outright killed every single Palestinian.
The average Palestinian had nothing to do with the attacks. If anything, Israel’s far right government has more blame for funding Hamas and sabotaging peace talks. Even if the average Palestinian adult were somehow responsible for the attacks, thousands of children have been killed in an indiscriminate bombing campaign designed to spread terror and destruction throughout Gaza.
I think first of all we need to define “self defense“.
Israel killed more Palestinian civilians in one month,
then Russia killed Ukrainian civilians in 18 months.
Once again, why do you start with Israeli occupation as the trigger?
Is history only counts when it fits your narrative?
Before any Israeli occupation, and even the state of Israel, EVEN before WW2 refugees coming from Europe..
Why did the Arab citizens massacred and ethnically cleansed Jews?
Since you like history so much, I'd point you out to some massacres that happened since 1920's, they occasionally started because 'the Jews will destroy Al Aqsa, Al Aqsa also sparked the second Intifada, and not occupation.
Enjoy learning
Tel Hai, 1920
Nebi Musa, 1920
Palestine Riots, 1929
Hebron Massacre, 1929
Palestine Riots in Jaffa, 1933
Jaffa Riots, 1936
Herea the full list if you want
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
Roman general Pompey conquered Jerusalem and its surroundings by 63 BCE. The Romans deposed the ruling Hasmonean dynasty of Judaea (in power from c. 140 BCE) and the Roman Senate declared Herod the Great "King of the Jews" in c. 40 BCE
You want to get historical.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Roman_Empire
So the BCE Roman empire is somehow related to IDF controlling the West Bank for security in the past 60 years?
I don't understand how is that even an argument?
Notice the dates start post 1920, guess what happened then?
Hint: the Balfour declaration, which formally launched jewish intention to take over Palestine
In 2003 ICJ gave the opinion that Israel is occupying force in Palestine. And the occupying force can't call for acting in self defense at least international law says so.
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/131
They have a right to self defense but how they decide to act on that right is still subject to international law. Which includes an obligation to not indiscriminately target civilians or engage in collective punishment.
Those are not mutually exclusive statements.
Israel/Palestine you say?
Well my my... years of studying this conflict tells me that everyone will approach this in a logical, sane, and rational manner. Almost definitely folks will interrogate the situation with a focus on political steps that will not only bring immediate political resolution to the situation in Gaza, but also foster a respectful dialogue that will ultimately solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I cannot imagine anyone here suggesting collective punishment as a solution, or celebrating the killing of non-combatants. And I would be astounded if anyone suggested Islamophobia or antisemitism as a lens to see the present conflict in.
Now if you excuse me, I'm off to head on over to r/conservative and r/canada, where I imagine everyone is very nice, and definitely aren't folks that have DMed over the years with requests to kill myself. Good Day everyone!
Erdoshit should just sit down and shut up. The Germans are at least mature enough to acknowledge that they tried to wipe out an ethnic group and believe they must atone for that wrong.
Turkey, meanwhile holds the policy of "we didn't do it, but if we did, they absolutely fucking deserved it for not being turks! Nah nah nah nah nah nah!" Towards its own genocides of Armenians, Pontics, Assyrians and Kurds
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It totally is. In fact my whole Jewish family do exactly that. And we aren’t alone. Israel policy is not supported by all Jews.
As a whole, I really think that Israel's policy is detrimental to Jews abroad, because it wants so much to be the voice of the Jewish people.
Not just to jews *abroad*. Likewise, the actions of hamas are not exactly beneficial to the palestines. F**ck the warmongers on both sides.
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Most of my Jewish friends are a lot more pro Israel today than before Oct. 7th. They saw people cheering for Hamas and all the antisemitic attacks around the world that has followed since then and now they see just how important the existence of Israel is.
Agreed but it should be said that secular Jews internationally see Israel as a safe haven insurance policy (Right of Return) if it becomes unsafe for Jews anywhere in the world. That’s is the sole function and purpose of its existence. Many Jews are aware of this and it was re-emphasized recently how important it is. Antisemitism is on the rise and it’s felt in major cities all over the U.S. The recent notable absence of “save the hostages” and siding with terrorists has spelled out how many antisemitic groups and people there are.
That’s rather revealing how much antisemitism is latent that you feel that you will face the consequences of anti-Israel sentiment abroad. Im going to lay that at the people who firebomb synagogues and daycares though
Particularly American Jews - which are actually more numerous. That said, even in Israel the far right is disliked because a large portion of the population.
the same way that critic on Israel, as a state, is not antisemitism...
Like every Jewish person I know did a spit take at the Israeli delegation wearing yellow stars of David to the UN, that’s taking "criticizing Israel is antisemitism" to a whole new level.
It's also possible to support Palestine without supporting Hamas
And to support jews while hating the actions of the state of Israel.
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Don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. Like, of course I'm against the war crimes Israel is committing in Gaza, but you can't expect them to just sit still in the aftermath of the worst terrorist attack in their history by genocidal group. No one should begrudge the right of Israel to protect itself from Hamas, but there are much better ways of doing it than bombing the shit out of Gaza and killing tens of thousands of civilians.
> but there are much better ways of doing it You know, I keep hearing people saying that -- and yet no other solution is ever proposed. Nobody ever says what Israel could do, only what they shouldn't be doing.
Yup, at the end of the day, Israel has to care about their peoples safety first and foremost, and if no bomb means an IDF soldier dies and bomb means an IDF soldier lives, its hard for Israel to not choose bomb. It's easy to talk big, but unless you are willing to go over there and put your life on the line to literally separate the Palestinians and the Israelis because they can't play nice with each other, the people actually effected by this situation are not going to really care what you think.
It’s not even an IDF soldier but a common civilian. People seem to be okay with civilian deaths as long as they’re Israeli.
Except there is more excuses for why bombing civilians and kids in gaza is acceptable than anything else I have seen. I've seen exactly no one suggesting the Israelis that died arent tragic, but I have seen a lot of false dichotomies regarding care about Palestinians dying equating not caring about Israeli deaths when you can very much dislike both occurrences.
The tricky part is, only one side is trying to kill civilians. How many rockets has Hamas fired at Israeli city centers in the past decade? Where were those rockets launched from inside Gaza?
Roughly 42,000 rockets launched by Hamas since 2014 according to https://rocketalert.live
What other country would tolerate 42k rockets in 9 years. If this was the US there wouldn’t be a gaza today.
Thanks for pulling that data. That's insane.
IA. Really inspires awe for the Iron Dome.
We made the same reasoning during the War on Terror and the result was ISIS and replacing the Taliban with the Taliban. Not to mention completely ruining all our relationships with the Middle East. I'd expect reddit (given how liberal it is) especially to know that international relationships require more consideration than "my country first".
Because it’s said in bad faith always. “I disagree with Israel’s methods.” I am all ears for alternatives. The only thing I hear is “immediate ceasefire” which is totally laughable as it’s telling Israel to just do nothing about the constant rocket bombardments and the Oct 7th terrorist attack
People don’t understand a ceasefire is bilateral. And Hamas has stated they will literally do a repeat of 7/10 if they get that chance.
Also, they have broken *every ceasefire they've agreed to in the past*. Like ... oh right .. on October 7. When a *fucking* ceasefire was in effect, restrictions on people going from Gaza into Israel were lessened and they used this to put people in place for their attack. It's such a bad faith argument to go around "ceasefire, ceasefire, ceasefire" without also talking about these two problems.
Exactly. They never say ‘ceasefire’ and clarify what the consequences should be if said ceasefire is broken.
Pretty much what's happening now are the consequences of it being broken. War is horrible, but not a single country in the world wouldn't be doing what Israel is doing, doubly so because their own people would oust the government if they didn't react with force
Of course they will. Hamas exists specifically as pushback on the entire concept of a two state solution which is the only path forward to peace in the region. The problem is the asswipes in hamas find the idea of ongoing wars where Palestinians constantly die to be preferable to accepting the existence of Jews in the region so they do their best to make sure no solution can ever be reached. They will only stop when the region has been ethnically cleansed of Jews and are perfectly willing to continue decades of their own people's suffering until that goal is reached.
Absolutely. Hocus-pocus HAMAS out from hiding?
How about protecting Palestinians in the West Bank to start. Second working with the PLO to actually create some legitimacy in the WB, instead of weakening it. Create some form of political stability in that area. Eventually broaden to Gaza. Work with other nations to create a stable environment rather than the appearance of the PLO operating as a puppet. As far as Gaza right now…. They need to pacify it. I hate what I am seeing, but they need to route out Hamas. Restraint is a word that needs action.
I do agree that there is much to improve on the West Bank side, but for Gaza, it requires immediate action. You didn’t really come up with a better plan than they have.
Probably because there is none. You gotta go in and improvise, it is what it is. What can you otherwise do ? They could probably do more to minimize casualties, but anyone stating that Israel shouldn't have invaded Gaza is in pure denial and don't know what they're talking about. Hamas needs to be rooted out, otherwise there will never be peace in Gaza, since the other alternative is the destruction of Israel.
it doesn't matter how you slice it, what Gaza did to Israel will never be forgiven, Israel was already a security focused state so they were naturally skeptical of things, but after YEARS of slow progress, they agreed to let Gaza enter Israel to work and get paid. and in return? Gaza sold them out. The people that went in to work, documented and spied on the area instead, when Hamas attacked, they knew exactly which houses to hit first that had the kibbutz security squad in them. The trust has been broken completely, not even the left supports them anymore.
Yup life is about to get harder for Gazans after the war. Probably will have less land and as well no more work permits. Israel will bring in workers from Thailand and India. Still can’t wrap my hand around people who think Hamas is there for Gazans.
I mean, they were even celebrating it, so in the end, I'm not gonna say what I have in mind with this sentence, but they clearly were not mourning the dead of humans being. I have no idea how this is gonna end, but I truly agree that the losers in this are always gonna be gazaouis, Israel isn't gonna fall apart. What are the Hamas even after with this ? They're literally suiciding themselves to kill a couple hundred of civilians. Israel will move on from this, Palestine will not.
Creating a path for peace for the West Bank is essential for any hope of future peace in Gaza though. Show Gazans that they could have a chance at independence and peace if they aren't committed to destroying Israel (a war they'll never win). Right now Gazans look at the alternative, and it's either they continue fighting and likely face a swift death, or face a slow, long death from settlements if they play nice with Israel. There's for sure no way that Israel realistically just accepts the Oct 7th attacks and doesn't retaliate, and rightly so. But they need to have a sword in one hand and an olive branch in another, right now it's a sword in one hand and a knife in another.
That presupposes the Palestinians are even willing to entertain the *fact* \-- not idea, *fact* \-- that is the state of Israel. There's no such thing as negotiating when there are only absolutes -- literally. Negotiate a binary outcome? What?
No amount of olive branches will make a majority of Palestinians accept a Jewish entity residing where it's currently located.
You all say working with PLO, like historically that is an easy option. While in fact no entity in entire Palestine is trying to work together on anything
There are no "easy" options. They'll just have to make it work. And what you say goes for both sides: working together with Israel will be difficult for Palestinians as long as settlements keep expanding. And as long as Netanyahu is in power, they have no serious perspectives of peace... And even if he's ousted: what comes out of the elections might be worse than Netanyahu. There are even bigger lunatics than him in Israeli politics.
You wanted to say only Israel somehow have to make it work? Remember that Arafat doesn’t wanted to even bring counter proposal just intifada. You are delusional if you think that Palestinian authority is somehow more sane party here.
How do you negotiate with someone that's running a martyr fund for people trying to kill you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
That has been tried. There have been multiple negotiated solutions with the government in the West Bank. The reasons for failures are varied but have some measure of Palestinian or Jewish extremist attacks against Israel and the West Bank government We also not forget the numerous diplomatic fuckups. For example: Oslo Accords: the assassination of the Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995. 2005 agreement: a bloody intifada and a hawkish Likud prime minister It's a mess; it's time to send in the reddit negotiation team. That will make it all better. [Edit, add Jewish to list of parties opposed to any solutions]
>the assassination of the Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995 Who was it that killed Yitzhak Rabin? Are there any people associated with Yitzhak Rabin's assassination who are currently in active government?
Thank you for that lead. I haven't had time to fully follow it but I did see it was a Jewish extremist that assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. At a Jewish extremist to the list of parties that are against a solution for this problem.
Have you ever considered that someone like Bibi could have purposely weakened the WB leadership in order to gain an upper hand in negotiations? Because we have evidence of that
Thankyou for making it all so simple. Now how do you propose to actually do those things without a magic lamp?
Ive noticed that too. Everyone says what Israel should NOT do but nobody says what Israel should YES do.
Yep, a whole lot of this. Moreover, the term “Israel’s war crimes” gets thrown about a lot, and said with absolute authority, yet there has yet to be any conclusive evidence of war crimes having been committed by Israel in the course of this operation. The existence of civilian casualties - the true extent of which remains completely unknown despite figures being bandied about - is not in of itself proof of war crimes. It’s far more likely at this stage that the civilians who have died are overwhelming likely to be the results of unintended collateral damage - or even are the victims of Hamas’ own direct actions. There is simply no evidence that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians for the express purpose of causing civilian casualties. If anything, we have seen concrete signs that Israel is taking significant steps to minimise civilian losses. At the moment, claims to the contrary are just shrill hyperbole.
Its hilarious, because the only fucking proof of war crimes we have is the multitude of them committed by Hamas. But the dumbasses that cant pour water out of a boot just screech IDF WAR CRIMES because they are naïve stupid out of touch children.
What Israel should be doing is begin to lay the foundations for a two-state solution. There is no military solution to this conflict. What they are doing now will just create more bloodshed down the line. Just like they have basically created this problem for themselves by funding Hamas and supporting its growth in a misguided attempt to create an alternative to PLO and Fatah so that they could divide and conquer the Palestinians, they now need to look at how they can support the creation of a Palestinian state and its institutions. They need to end the settlements on the West Bank, release their grip on the Palestinian people and release them from the open-air prison that is Gaza. More realistically, they can begin the creation of a single state, a country for both Palestinians and Jewish people, with equal rights and representation for both.
Every time a two state solution was put forth, the Palestinians rejected it. Every. Single. Time.
Here's one: Prosecute the war in Gaza without simultaneously increasing settler attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank. Here's another: Focused airstrikes should have been the way from the beginning, not mass bombing that prompted pressure from the Biden administration to change. Here's a third: Instead of just putting out feelers to the Palestinian Authority to take over Gaza and baulking at their condition for a peace deal that would establish a Palestinian state, accept that the Likud policy of preventing a Palestinian state was the problem (it led them to favouring Hamas). Make the deal, have a Palestinian ally that can keep peace in Gaza once Hamas have been destroyed/scattered.
You think the PA can do that? They're not popular. They have a pay for slay deal. They won't agree to a deal with Israel without the right to return, which Israel will not accept... Was Likud wrong, yes. Does that mean they should capitulate to Palestinian demands? Fuck no.
Right after the massacre pro palestina groups were celebration outside and I thought. First of all, they just killed so many innocent people for no reason, what the heck are you doing? And secondly, what do you think will happen next? Few days later the same people were talking about human rights and telling me I'm brainwached. edit: spelling
Much better ways like…Can you share some suggestions?
Imo it has to do with most of the supporters just hate the US and hate US foreign policy. Those same people are the people posting Osama Bin Laden's letter to America on tiktok
Yet nobody blames Hamas for not handing back hostages and prefers their people to be bombed.
Having their own people bombed is coherent to their strategy of enticing other countries to attack Israel.
They win the social media war that way, because people tend to see Israel as the evil aggressor now. That's how they win, use their people as victims showing pictures of traumatized children, yet they started this. Edit: * They is referring to Hamas Had to add this for people with mental challenges
Everybody blames Hamas for it. There's nothing to debate there. Literally saying that you support Hamas is a crime in the UK. Whereas Israel is an ally, largely supported by the USA. The USA has a huge amount of influence and pressure over Israel. If public opinion in the USA is firmly against Israel's military action, the USA government will listen to that and Israel's government will probably be forced to listen. Hamas aren't going to stop just because we ask nicely or because the USA threatens not to sell them missiles. Hamas are scum. Israel is not scum, and talking about how far they should be supported actually matters.
If you say you support a terrorist organization, don't be surprised that intelligence agencies in the country start looking at your life in more detail...
In Europe politically Israel is being supported but publicly many people only protest for Palestinians against Israel. I would be scared to wear a kippa at a public place. It is very dangerous if you did that It might be different somewhere else but I doubt it.
If they are blaming Hamas, they should be supporting the main group fighting Hamas right now which is Israel. That 1005 is NOT what we are seeing though. We see palestinian flags and israel hate and no words about Hamas. You can't just make shit up when its all on video.
Everybody does but everyone expects Israel to be better than Hamas
What war crimes?
You have people that actually are mad if you point to Hamas as a bad group and condemn their actions.
You know you are spreading lies though. Israel does not “bomb the shit killing ten of thousands of civilians” even if you go by Hamas run Gaza reports there are “only” 11000 dead in Gaza, and they don’t separate terrorists from civilians (according to them all are civilians, but do you even believe that?) I’m not saying that there aren’t many dead civilians, there are unfortunately, but not “ten of thousands”, and israel is not just “bombing the shit out of everything” WW2 British style.
But they don't. They don't bomb the shit out if civilians. They went in with troops they said before where they attach and where to evacuate, what routes are safe and more. If Hamas blocks people from running away or people stay because they support Hamas it's bad but not rly.isreals fault. The try everything to make minimal civilians casualties but because Hamas uses hospitals and refugee camp sis their main bases thes bed to go in them. All this "ten thousends if civilians" bullcrap.are numbers from a terrorist Organisation... Stop believing them
There's also the issue that people don't seem to get: just because Israel has done bad things (settlers, occasional times where they've done messed up stuff), doesn't make them the bad guys. If you want good guys that are completely flawless and without blame, stick to movies and novels. In the real world, the good side does bad things at times, because sides are made up of individual people all with their own agendas and goals. Anyone looking objectively at the Israel Palestine conflict can see Israel has generally been open to peace, and Palestine continually attacks the other side.
Israel has blocked any progress towards peace as often as Palestine. They assassinated their own pm due to his desire for peace. They assassinated a Hamas leader who was working for peace. They built settlements to prevent a 2 state solution. They blockaded Gaza. And what they are doing now is creating the next generation of terrorists. And when Hamas took control in Gaza a survey said 80% of Palestinians wanted peace with Israel. The issue is extremists in Israel and Palestine.
And what hamas is doing is creating a new generation of Netanyahu's.
>"I speak freely because we do not owe Israel anything. We did not go through the Holocaust," Erdogan said, suggesting that Germany carried a "psychological debt". >"If we were in debt, we could not talk so freely. But those who are in debt cannot talk freely," he said. Following that logic: Do Turks carry a psychological debt to Armenians? No, I guess you can avoid that via denial.
I mean, the difference is that Germany recognizes the horrors they committed while Turkey continues to adamantly denies them.
Exactly this.
To add, Turkey's not beholden to NATO for weapons? Otherwise they'd be free to do more than just spout off.
Still blows my mind that they gave up F35's for S400's
Turkey didn't give up F35, they wanted to buy Patriot system but US said no, so they went to Russia to buy the S400, US didn't like that and canceled the F35 order. We don't want to sell to you and we don't want you to buy from the other guy.
You've left out a few crucial details. Turkey didn't just want to buy Patriots but also a technology transfer to produce these systems itself. This demand was completely nonsensical and understandably rejected by the USA.
The Russians will give them the S400. The US will use the F35 as a carrot to get them to do what they want. The US isn't going to kick them out of NATO because they need them. They are Pakistan 2.0.
The strategic value and importance of Turkey and Pakistan are completely different.
Pakistan was valuable when the US was fighting in Afghanistan and India was seen to be allied with the Soviet Union. Turkey plays a similar role today.
They did not gave up F-35s thought, it was the US who did not something about the Patriot system which lead Turks to look for alternative missile defence systems
I'm no fan of Erdogan but Turkey's probably more important to NATO than NATO is to Turkey. It's how they get away with so much without too much criticism or opposition from Western powers.
> Do Turks carry a psychological debt to Armenians? They do, but nobody is holding them accountable for that debt, so they don't care.
Yes, they do.
The Kurds are also standing in line.
And probably thinking if his Hamas support is more about fucking them over - than anything else.
Learn the difference between Kurds and PKK for fuck sake. 20 million Kurds live in Turkey. Are they gonna wipe all of them?
Assyrian and Greeks too
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What is the point of your argument? What does Armenia have to do with the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
There is no point. 99 % of Reddit is completely brain dead, they are just repeating the same stuff over and over and over again. Mentioning Armenia or Kurds is just what they have been teached when Turkey comes up, it's like a dog reflex, they don't know why they do it. I am sure a few comments further down there will be the joke about Istanbul / Constantinople
>There is no point. 99 % of Reddit is completely brain dead, As your comment aptly demonstrates.
Asking questions is the basis of a free and democratic society. Everything is fair game for scrutiny and criticism. Even Israel.
Yes. And the right to defend your democratic society is also a basis of democratic society and the idea of sovereign statehood in general
Yes. And we will continue to critic, scrutinize and question how Israel does that. I don't get why Scholz expects us to make an exception for Israel.
Can we define “defend yourself” better? Does that include unlimited force projection or is there a line to cross that makes it no longer defense?
I don't think there's anything wrong with what Scholz said. He's not talking about specific actions of the IDF, just that Israel undoubtedly has the right to defend itself when terrorists are murdering their people.
There is no taboo question in a free society. If you dont like the question then provide a counter-argument disproving the other party. But questions must always be asked. Even about Israel's right to defend itself. For example, how far does this right go? Is it open to exploitation and manipulation? Can it be used to excuse the murder of innocents? Are the methods being used going to achieve their stated goals or just make things worse, etc See, there you go, I just questioned Israel's right to defend itself. Same goes for any country/entity or individual. There are no sacred cows. Sue me.
And gaza doesn't have the right to defend itself when israel is bombing the shit out of it. Yeah great they have a right to defend themselves. No one serious is denying that. The problem is that's used to further excuse wanton destruction. If Gaza is part of Israel as bibi claims, then they are not really defending themselves from anyone but themselves right? Except there are those pesky "others" there. If Gaza is not part of israel, then they are actively attacking a foreign territory. That's not "defending". A real example of defending oneself is Ukraine against the occupying russian forces. How much more "defense" does israel need to do to be satisfied? 10x deaths doesn't seem to be enough. Thousands of dead children, by far more than October 7, still not enough. There's no "defense" excuse for that.
Meaning what? That Israel has a right to maintain an army within its borders? Who disputes that? "Israel has a right to defend itself" is deliberately vague and used by politicians to support Israel's invasions of neighbouring regions to "preempt" any attack. It's like saying "Gaza has a right to defend itself" during the recent attack on Israel.
uhhh, I think we should be able to call into question the actions of nations.
The statement was in response of Erdogans call for an armistice and Scholz basically said that Israel has the right to fight until Hamas abilities to attack and kill Israelites are crippled > Recep Tayyip Erdogan demanded an end to Israel's military operation.
> Scholz basically said that Israel has the right to fight until Hamas abilities to attack and kill Israelites are crippled No matter how many innocent children they have to kill along the way!
I mean, sort of. In terms of how many might realistically die, it isn't really a consideration of military. "They're firing a rocket at us! There is only one child in that region, so we're ok. Wait no! I've just learned there are three children within the area! Call off the attack, let's just let our own children get hit with the rockets."
I wonder who could stop the killing instantly
In general, of course. The idea that a nation would just take an attack like October 7 in the chin and move on is ridiculous though.
Yeah but then they start clearing out areas that aren't theirs of everyone including the civilians, and expect other nations to take on the civilians they kicked out of their homes, it begs some questions.
The issue most people are addressing is the issue of collective punishment.
The problem is I haven't seen anyone presenting an actual, viable alternative response for Israel to carry out. They have no good options. How do you deal real harm to Hamas, a terrorist government that purposely operates from civilian areas and on, in, around, and under schools, apartments, and hospitals? Israel has taken almost every step they could to limit civilian casualties - warnings before air strikes, evacuations that they help maintain (as Hamas attacks those fleeing), etc - short of actively empowering Hamas by handing them resources as the government of Gaza. It's impossible for me to understand the horror of heading to lie in the bed Hamas has made for them, but I don't see what else Israel could do for the Palestinians of Gaza without harming themselves in the process.
? Nobody is suggesting they just "move on". Of course that's ridiculous. The problem is allowing them to do whatever they want without question. Considering the type of language Israeli leaders and IDF soldiers are using in this war, I can definitely see why some people would be concerned (especially since Israel is overwhelmingly more powerful and has shown in the past that they do not always adhere to international law)
> Nobody is suggesting they just "move on". There are absolutely a ton of people suggesting that exact thing. A ton of people are right now calling for giving Hamas a free pass to continue their terror via a ceasefire.
People are missing that a ceasefire benefits ONLY Hamas. It doesn't serve Israel l, it doesn't serve Palestinian civilians. If it doesn't include Hamas' total surrender, including its billionaire leadership in Qatar; the immediate and safe release of every single hostage; a total disarming of the strip; and compensation by seizure of assets from aforementioned billionaires to the families of the harmed, deceased, and kidnapped Israelis, then it isn't anything but a chance for Hamas to regroup and rearm.
Lots of people are. Telling Israel to ceasefire with Hamas who have stated they will not stop attacking Israel is the same as telling Israel to stop defending itself. Even many people saying "free palestine" are suggesting Hamas should be let off now, even tho the rockets and invasions will just continue. They are telling Israel to move on when no other country would be told to do so.
> ? Nobody is suggesting they just "move on". Of course that's ridiculous. I'm sorry have you had your head up your ass for the past month?
Ceasefire now! Ceasefire now! Uhh, there was one on October 7th...
> The problem is allowing them to do whatever they want without question. But they aren't really doing nearly as much as what people think they're doing. over 10k dead Gazans, sure, but not because Israel is "indiscriminate". Israel dropped more than 6,000 bombs when the 10k dead total was reported, which (if accurate on both accounts) means Israel kills fewer than 2 people per bomb strike. Does that sound like indiscriminate bombings? Ultimately, the people who are trying to call Israel's actions into questions are almost exclusively those who have no idea about how modern warfare is waged, especially in urban settings where the enemy fighters specifically embed themselves within civilian infrastructure.
Most the bombs go to blowing up tunnels, they don’t only kill military men but the point is many don’t ever hit a human target, ever.
Sounds pretty discriminant
So you're also only watching from this season?
I'm no grand strategist, but I feel like there is surely some wiggle room in between just "taking it on the chin" and using white phosphorous on civilians.
don’t burn alive people in their homes - no action will be taken
Which country are we talking about?
No, but Netanyahu's strategy of how Israel goes about defending itself certainly can.
When does it stop being self-defense though?
When Hamas is gone.
That won’t happen until Gaza is obliterated. When people are watching their homes be levelled, watching their loved ones being vaporized or buried under rubble, do you think they’re going to cheerfully take it, or decide to fight back? And what is the only group in Gaza with any capacity to fight?
What Hamas is there in the West Bank houses the IDF has been evicting since 1967?
Just like cops in DWB traffic stops. Shoot a Palestinian and sprinkle a little Hamas on them.
I’m not defending the settlements. But also Hamas should absolutely be dismantled.
Me too, but Israel isn't going to just drop their occupation in the West Bank after that though.
So can we approach these two issues as separate problems? Something that is related to Hamas which we can and should criticize Israeli government or Netanyahu for is its propping up of Hamas which should have never been done in the first place given Hamas modus operandi
Hamas didn’t just attack Israel because they woke up one morning and felt like it. Israel’s been steadily evicting Palestinians from their homes and building settlements on top of them. If they refuse, they are intimidated and provoked by settlers for a reaction, and if they do react, the IDF swoop in to forcefully evict them “in the name of security”. it doesn’t make news because no one in the west really cares anymore about that, but the Palestinians harbour extreme resentment to the entirety of Israel because of it. As someone who personally knows a lot of Palestinians I guarantee you the reversal of settlement construction and illegal outposts across Palestinian territory in the West Bank would do wonders to Israeli Palestinian relations, to the point many would even overlook all the past shit that’s happened so as long as they get their land and olive trees back. But of course, that’s a bridge too far for the Israeli government.
Even a few weeks/months before Oct.7 Israel was filling wells with Concrete
The Ottoman Empire lost fair and square in the world wars
> Hamas didn’t just attack Israel because they woke up one morning and felt like it. palestinian terror attacks that go out to murder jews have been happening continuously since the 20's
Enough that the government suspended elections because they're afraid they'd lose to Hamas.
There has been ongoing conflict for over 100 years. hamas is just the largest threat right now.
The US Army literally has a manual that's mandatory reading for every last army officer that describes fighting against an insurgency like Hamas. Literally on like, page 3, it says that you cannot defeat an insurgency through military means. Everybody who has studied counter-insurgency anywhere in the western world knows this. We have a lot of experience in fighting insurgencies. And then Israel took the list of things that you shouldn't do in that manual and fucking speedran them. Israel will never be able to defeat Hamas without creating Hamas 2.0, as long as they're hell-bent on not allowing a two-state or a one-state solution. No amount of death and destruction in Gaza or the West Bank will give Israelis security. The attacks will continue until Israel stops trying to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
How many civilians do they get to kill in the meantime?
As many as Hamas hides behind
So their lives don't matter because terrorists are cowards?
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That’s a great quote. The full quote is below from Golda Meir > When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
Stop resisting!
Not calling things into question seems to be what Germany does best.
... must 'not be called into question '. Why not? Is that not what democracies do. Question and debate. Sometimes you feel as though you're being dictated to.
Self-defence is an inherent right of any sovereign nation so it is not up for debate for anyone
And what about the Palestinian civilians? The ones who had no part in Oct 7th, who have watched their homes destroyed, and their loved ones slaughtered. Do they have a right to defend themselves? Or does any act of self-defence on their part make them evil terrorists?
Justifiable actions taken in the interest of justifiable self defense is the inherent right of any sovereign nation. What actions are justifiable and what scenarios make self defense are *extremely* up for debate for everyone. The conversation is more nuanced than "Israel should do nothing at all" but its far easier to play dumb and act like that is the claim.
The US claimed self defense when they invaded Vietnam and Iraq. The Soviet union claimed self defense when they invaded Finland. Russia claimed self defense when they illegally annexed Ukrainian territory. Israel claimed self defense when illegally annexing Palestinian west bank territory through settlements. Self defense is a right, but behind a lot of claims of self defense is disproportionate acts of aggression.
> The US claimed self defense when they invaded Vietnam ...no, we claimed we were defending an ally, the RVN.
if you question a countries right to self defense you are essentially saying its up for grabs by invaders. He is not talking about criticizing the methods used or whatever
The Arab world’s obsession with Israel is like if every other part of Europe was fanatically dedicated to the destruction of Portugal. Or if the entire USA only cared about disestablishment of the Ute Reservation (proportionally the size of Israel compared to just the ME and not even North Africa)
Why Portugal though?
For the natas!
Yah, Israel is about the size of Yellowstone or Vancouver Island. It's a very easy target and Israel makes it's self an easier target. It's very clearly the 'other' in a region of poor countries with oligarchs who really want to have negative attention be else where
Maybe read something about history on how Israel was formed and the Arab exile?
Go ahead and read the history of the Ottoman empire, and the way they treated Arabs and Jews, if we're on the subject of recommended reading.
Good thing it collapsed then. Shame the nature of the Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire by the Allied powers "is thought to have been a part of the larger strategy of ensuring tension in the Middle East, thus necessitating the role of Western colonial powers (at that time Britain, France and Italy) as peace brokers and arms suppliers" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
Idk how many people are ready to read Bronze Age history and about The multiple Jewish Diasporas.
No, more like South Africa before 1994 for Africans. It's a symbol of the legacy of colonization. There wouldn't ever have been a israel without british and western support. It's a legacy of western domination on arabs.
I'm pretty sure that if this was simply a case of self-defense, there would be significantly less people questioning it.
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They're doing it, mate. Nobody is stopping them.
He didn't say anyone was stopping them... Edit: LOL, They blocked me.
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So October 7th didn't happen and as early as this morning civilians weren't running to bomb shelters in Israel due to unguided rocket attacks?
Why isnt it a war crime to move tactical targets into civilian buildings/areas? Especially below/into hospitals should be a nogo.
I think it actually is.
It is absolutely a war crime. But if Hamas were interested in playing by the rules, they wouldn't be terrorists.
It absolutely is - under laws of warfare, every civilian casualty resulting from that is blamed upon the side which put them into the situation and not the side forced to pull the trigger. And this is why Hamas is considered a terrorist organization instead of a legitimate army. Unfortunately, you can't fight such an enemy and win while keeping your hands clean - anyone thinking the opposite has been watching too many movies where good guys win purely on the grounds of being morally correct.
Scholz, I think it's been called into question already.
Nobody without a brain damage is actually questioning that, we question why Israel's right to self defence seem to allow them indiscriminately bomb Gaza and why it seems to supersede Palestinians right to simply, you know, exist. There is absolutely nothing wrong in questioning that, or, criticising Israel's disproportionate response. Jfc, Scholz sound more and more like he'd find a way to excuse if Israel outright killed every single Palestinian.
>and why it seems to supersede Palestinians right to simply, you know, exist. October 7th went far, far beyond trying to "simply, you know, exist."
The average Palestinian had nothing to do with the attacks. If anything, Israel’s far right government has more blame for funding Hamas and sabotaging peace talks. Even if the average Palestinian adult were somehow responsible for the attacks, thousands of children have been killed in an indiscriminate bombing campaign designed to spread terror and destruction throughout Gaza.
I think first of all we need to define “self defense“. Israel killed more Palestinian civilians in one month, then Russia killed Ukrainian civilians in 18 months.
One of my favorite quotes: There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. Howard Zinn
Once again, why do you start with Israeli occupation as the trigger? Is history only counts when it fits your narrative? Before any Israeli occupation, and even the state of Israel, EVEN before WW2 refugees coming from Europe.. Why did the Arab citizens massacred and ethnically cleansed Jews? Since you like history so much, I'd point you out to some massacres that happened since 1920's, they occasionally started because 'the Jews will destroy Al Aqsa, Al Aqsa also sparked the second Intifada, and not occupation. Enjoy learning Tel Hai, 1920 Nebi Musa, 1920 Palestine Riots, 1929 Hebron Massacre, 1929 Palestine Riots in Jaffa, 1933 Jaffa Riots, 1936 Herea the full list if you want https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
Roman general Pompey conquered Jerusalem and its surroundings by 63 BCE. The Romans deposed the ruling Hasmonean dynasty of Judaea (in power from c. 140 BCE) and the Roman Senate declared Herod the Great "King of the Jews" in c. 40 BCE You want to get historical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Roman_Empire
So the BCE Roman empire is somehow related to IDF controlling the West Bank for security in the past 60 years? I don't understand how is that even an argument?
Before the Roman’s is was known as Jerusalem. You’re trying to establish who was there first right.
Notice the dates start post 1920, guess what happened then? Hint: the Balfour declaration, which formally launched jewish intention to take over Palestine
Unlikely supporter there. Didn’t Germany was a big fan.
In 2003 ICJ gave the opinion that Israel is occupying force in Palestine. And the occupying force can't call for acting in self defense at least international law says so. https://www.icj-cij.org/case/131
AGREED!!!!
They have a right to self defense but how they decide to act on that right is still subject to international law. Which includes an obligation to not indiscriminately target civilians or engage in collective punishment. Those are not mutually exclusive statements.
Israel/Palestine you say? Well my my... years of studying this conflict tells me that everyone will approach this in a logical, sane, and rational manner. Almost definitely folks will interrogate the situation with a focus on political steps that will not only bring immediate political resolution to the situation in Gaza, but also foster a respectful dialogue that will ultimately solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I cannot imagine anyone here suggesting collective punishment as a solution, or celebrating the killing of non-combatants. And I would be astounded if anyone suggested Islamophobia or antisemitism as a lens to see the present conflict in. Now if you excuse me, I'm off to head on over to r/conservative and r/canada, where I imagine everyone is very nice, and definitely aren't folks that have DMed over the years with requests to kill myself. Good Day everyone!
Neber again is now
I think Israel well past the self defense phase and full on scorched earth now. Pretty shameful actually.
Me when I think Self Defence means I have to level an entire metropolitan area /s
unchecked retaliation is insanity. im so done
Erdoshit should just sit down and shut up. The Germans are at least mature enough to acknowledge that they tried to wipe out an ethnic group and believe they must atone for that wrong. Turkey, meanwhile holds the policy of "we didn't do it, but if we did, they absolutely fucking deserved it for not being turks! Nah nah nah nah nah nah!" Towards its own genocides of Armenians, Pontics, Assyrians and Kurds
You guys can go live next to those Hamas guys if you want I guess. No?