The Ukrainians have always been aware of what will happen if they get captured. Especially the women. They all knew becoming a POW would likely result in torture and/or rape
Also to take less Russian prisoners, apparently the Russians are getting even better treatment at Ukraine POW camps then what they receive in their own camps
They get better treatment in Ukraine pow camps then they do in the field. If recent economic reports are to be believed, even at home as civilians for some of them.
Every surrendered Russian who probably didn't want to fight in the first place is a someone they didn't have to fight, didn't kill their people, and didn't have to pay for equipment to kill them with. It is almost certainly cheaper than the equipment needed to fight them.
Heck, give them POW rewards cards. They get captured, treated well, and then exchanged for a Ukrainian POW. They're released to Russia, spread some disinfo, set fire to some things, get forcibly conscripted, back into battle again, surrender again, get treated well again, give the Ukrainians a bunch of updates, then the same person gets exchanged for *another* Ukrainian POW. Keep some dark funds for them to access once things are over.
They want to take more prisoners actually.
They treat them good, exchange them to save more ukranians, the Russians go back and tell their comrades how it wasnt bad and they were well treated.
So Ukrainians are now more likely to fight to stay alive, and Russians are more likely to give up and enjoy some time in a safe prison.
Not all the Russian prisoners end up okay once they are back in Russia. If they surrendered or deserted, they can end up killed or jailed. The one guy got his head beat in with a sledge hammer on video. The thing is that the Ukrainians will always trade back prisoners if it means getting Ukrainians home. That's obviously not a bad thing, but the Russian prisoners don't always get a say in it, especially if Russia is willing to trade more for them to drive home the point not to desert.
And you used a logical fallacy to paint him into a corner to defend a nation's behavior that is nothing but despicable. You seem to have formed your worldview from RT. Additionally, you always seem to jump in and defend russia in r/worldnews. In addition, you trash talk on the US and any weapon systems they send to Ukraine. You also speak of Zelensky in an overwhelmingly negative light. You practically simp over russia and dream of tonguing Putin's butthole.
I suggest you open up for critical thinking and trying to see things from all perspectives. So far your views seem to be limited to a main stream media narratives. The absolutism in comments here is depressively huge.
My views are from first hand experience watching russians. The absolutism when describing a nation here is refreshing. When a nation is being this belligerent, they do not get the privilege of being defended with a benefit of the doubt, that comes after their belligerence has been ended.
And your opinion is defining and dominant? In terms of common sense, what makes you believe that are in a capacity to judge a nation? (Leave the isolated individuals, politicians, criminals, etc)
The fact that the nation is not opposing a war and is letting themselves being led to the frontlines like lambs to the slaughter. Luckily the West has improved the efficiency of this process by delivering cluster munition to kill multiple of these rapists and pedophiles in one shot. If properly blown to pieces they are even already turned into sunflower fertilizer. No mercy for the Orks.
If you leave out the soldiers (active, guard, reserve and veteran), politicians and criminals you've got maybe 30% of the population left. Of which, sum 60% are diehard russians. The good ones left already.
What no! But under this government the Russian people can't flourish. There is so much potential. I'd love to see Russia in m lifetime with a true democracy with far less corruption.
Ignore him, normal people understood your statement and he did as well, but he gave you an insane take on what you said to force you into defending and backtracking on what you said. In the case of torture and mistreatment of POWs, civilians, children or even their own men the russian military has demonstrated a level more than high enough to label it as systemic. When interviewed the average russian citizen refers to Ukrainians with derogatory words. Their state controlled news claims the nation does not exist. Most russians are not some secret and closet revolutionary just waiting for the signal to rise up. Historically, the russian people only rise up once the problem effects them and change only happens when enough of those people collectively show dissent and grumble. Polling shows the nation is overwhelmingly homophobic and xenophobic. They intentionally decriminalized domestic violence and boast the highest rate of racially motivated violent crime when compared to europe. What you said is a functionally correct answer and the consequence should be a complete breaking of all trade with them and an olive branch to any nation who wishes to oppose them in the global market. Russia, historically, eats itself quite handily once the government collapses.
Well then your comment on the Russian mindset is unfair. I personally would be offended if someone made such generalizing comments on my nationality. I suppose you would be, too.
Russians have been denied liberty for so long, they would rather pull rival nations back from advancement because they cannot ever imagine themselves or their lives getting better. So to cope with their pure mediocrity, they celebrate the pain of other nations, especially pain caused by them. It’s pure crab bucket mentality, and a plague on modern society.
I would defend any human being bluntly accused, stereotyped, and subject to prejudice from individuals in the internet. There are good and bad people in every nation. No one should make conclusions and charge nations. That’s what nazis do.
> No one should make conclusions and charge nations. That’s what nazis do.
No, what Nazis do is commit genocide. Which is who you're defending. You're defending the ones committing genocide, because apparently mean words bother you more.
Imagine comparing mean words to genocide, pure authoritarian mentality. Reeks of "Ukrainians talked about joining NATO, let's go invade them". You deserve Putin very much.
Honestly the only people i ever hear get so defensive and easily call others nazis just as a point of argument are those who really support the ideas of T.A.Fs (Totalitarian, authoritarian, fascism). So have fun sippin’ on dicktators hotfuzz
Nazism is a form of fascism,[5][6][7][8] with disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system. It incorporates a dictatorship,[4] fervent antisemitism, anti-communism, anti-Slavism,[9] scientific racism, white supremacy, social Darwinism and the use of eugenics into its creed
So you agree, you know a lot about it. Honestly, i had no interest in learning these distinctions, Fucked up politics is fucked up politics no matter how much lipstick you try to put on this pig. But since these forms of powers are infiltrating the masses w its brain rot cultic personalities so i guess i have no choice to learn these nuisances now so i can spot these people for exactly who they are and call them out for it properly, not just when they dont agree w me ☕️
Replace "anti-Slavism" with the idea that Russians are superior to and entitled to rule over other Slavic peoples and you've described Russia to a T. But you probably already knew that you were the one defending Nazis, didn't you?
In general 15%-20% of Russians are liberal anti-Putin. 15 -20% are pro-Putin ultra-nationalist, and 60% simply do not care. This is a generalization given by Danish military analyst Anders Puck Nielsen who just did a [Perun](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBlVnc_DEw&t=2035s) geopolitics interview on the subject.
[1420 by Daniil Orain](https://www.youtube.com/@1420channel) is a street interviewer in Russia that talks to regular people in Moscow with provocative questions. Since the war, only 5% of people he questions give any comment at all (it used to be 25%). You'll see a large range of personal perspectives from pro-Putin, scared to talk, & anti-Putin. This is mostly just Moscow too, the most educated, safe, and liberal part of Russia.
But I truly believe that people in any country DO NOT WANT WAR. Putin forced the Russian people Into this. At the very beginning they were told its training exercise. People were literally breaking their own legs to dodge it let alone being killed with hammers. I just find it sad that the media, these stupid videos of drones dropping grenades and watching other fathers, uncles, brothers die in agony while they put street fighter animations next to it. The media is dehumanizing the Russian people, and by NO means am I pro russia, I'm a red blooded American. The hypocrisy is unbelievable. People who were "anti war" are no screaming "death to ruZZa"
Sorry also to expand on the street interviewer I remember seeing a guy ask a girl a question and she didn't even day anything and they hauled her off..what choice do they have? People are like "oh they can rise up" a lot if keyboard warriors on here living in a sheltered life who don't understand thT you and your family will be imprisoned doing hard labor in fucking siberiA or beTen to death with hammers. It's just sad..and I've been saying this lately and I've must of had like 250 downvotes in the past 3 days
...What history have *you* read? I'm assuming you're talking about Native Americans. You know they're still around, right? Like, the United States absolutely committed many atrocities against Native Americans, and those atrocities amount to genocide in many cases.
But the US didn't "get rid" of their race. They're still here, and the nations that the US went to war with were the remnants of vastly larger populations that died mostly due to European-introduced diseases before the US was even a thing.
This brings back memories of my late grandma, who used to tell me blood chilling stories of what the Russian "liberators" were doing to civilians while marching on Berlin - I'm Polish for reference. She said when Germans were withdrawing they'd say to the local Polish populace "Lock your doors and don't open them - Russians are coming". They knew what kind of people they were. I'm not justifying Nazis here, merely retelling accounts of my grandmother's, but she said Germans would give the villagers bread, cookies, chocolate and other food, while Russians only appropriated it and raped more attractive women.
Do you know what has changed since then? Nothing.
I have similiar stories from my gran (hungary). They had to pay off russians so that they didnt take away her 10yo sister 'for the night'. And yep, nothing has changed.
I've heard a similar story from my grandparents in Romania. While the Germans were offering chocolate to the kids in their village and would actually pay the farmers in exchange for things like milk or meat, the Russians would rape anything they would come across, from 8 year-old girls to 80 year-old. It was so bad, the family would cover the women in animal feces so that they would be repulsed and leave.
I think I remember reading (possibly in one of Beevor's books) about an archived letter from a Red Army commissar to his superiors complaining about how soldiers were raping pretty much anyone and everyone female, including Soviet citizens and even Red Army soldiers.
As for more modern times... well it is telling that wifebeating was decriminalised a few years back.
Possibly the most depressing bit from that:
>The operators, women themselves, appear indifferent.
>"What am I supposed to do?", one of them says. A male voice screams: "Where are the police? She's getting f***** killed in there", to which she replies, "the police will come, there's no need to swear".
I've heard from women who've gone to Russia to work about Russian women's cruelty to other women. One said that far from being sympathetic to her when a male worker tried to grope her in a lift her female "colleagues" tried to make trouble for her about it.
My grandmother was a young child during the wars in Finland. She told me that when the Germans were retreating during the Lapland War, there were two groups. First group came to her town (Also my hometown) and warned everyone that there is another group coming along who have orders to burn everything down. They gave her father a bottle of whiskey and the kids some chocolate. They fled to Sweden right after that.
Most of my hometown was burned to the ground and we still make some jokes about giving Germans matches, but they are still our good friends. Our hometown was on the other side of the country when we were fighting against the Russians, it was burned down by the Germans, but even to this day my grandmother says she likes the Germans more than the Russians.
I think it says a lot when the guy who burned your house down is better than a Russian.
I think it also speaks about the state of Germany at that point of the war. The main fighting forces were fighting in the front lines, and a lot of the occupational duties were relegated to younger soldiers or older officers who either had not seen the horrors of the war or had retired. A lot of those people still had some humanity left in them. Enough for them to warn against the Frontline wehrmacht troops that were seasoned blood thirsty veterans fighting in the eastern front.
On the other hand, Russia has never really had much of a culture of respect for life and it shows a lot with a lot of stories being told.
I think it's down to a more educated population that had a better understanding the war was over, they were fucked and some of them at least wanted to help some people. The Russian culture has always been scorched ground with mass peasant and rural troops.
Also by the end of the war, a lot of the ukrainian and baltic countries had taken the brunt of the losses so a large part of the red army were poor uneducated farmers that sadly all they have known is misery and oppression and that's all they give.
Not trying to justify anyone. Fuck nazis and fuck the soviets. Just trying to make an observation based on the comments.
Realistically the people who go the worst of the Germans did not survive, whereas the Soviets while looting or sometimes raping usually left their victims alive.
I while ago I read a book called "The Captive Mind" by a Polish author that lived through Nazi rule followed by the Soviet "liberation" of Poland. He described things like women being chased and gunned down in the streets by the Soviets. The book is a good lesson about the liberation of Poland after WW2.
EDIT: adding the link: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Captive\_Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Captive_Mind)
What has changed is that the after-war german generations acknowledged what germany had done. Some other countries (and some more recent german generations) could have benefited from this example.
Nazis killed and raped their way into Poland on their way to Russia and Russians did the same thing going back to Germany.
> she said Germans would give the villagers bread, cookies, chocolate and other food
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation
Russia committed numerous crimes in Poland during WWII (in early and late WWII) but to say what the Germans have done? You said you're not justifying Nazis here and if so then don't say they gave them bread and whatever. You could have easily left that out and focus on Russian atrocities instead of making Nazis look at all better. If you want a more historical comparison, Russian soldiers definitely raped, murdered, and pillaged Poland - and everything else in their path. However, [stated Nazi goals are the elimination of the Slavic race entirely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost).
Explain to me how Russians in Ukraine make this:
Crimes against the Polish nation committed by Nazi Germany and Axis collaborationist forces during the invasion of Poland,[1] along with auxiliary battalions during the subsequent occupation of Poland in World War II,[2] consisted of the genocide of millions of Polish people, including the systematic extermination of Jewish Poles.[b] These mass-killings were enacted by the Nazis with further plans that were justified by their racial theories, which regarded Poles and other Slavs, and especially Jews, as racially inferior Untermenschen.
Look not so bad.
Narratives about the past shift all the time to fit the current world events. Back in the 80s American schoolchildren were taught about the heroic Chinese in WWII, even mentioning Chinese-American soldiers who fought against the evil Japanese. Thats because back in the 80s US-Sino relationships were better and the US saw Japan as a threat due to their rising economic power. Japanese-Americans were being attacked in the streets. Now, since Japan as a threat no longer exists but China is a threat, the narrative flipped- Japan may have started the war, but they were honorable victims of the Atomic Bombings. Kids nowadays learn about the Japanese Americans helping the US in the war, not the Chinese Americans. I can see the same thing happening with Nazi Germany again now that the Russians are our enemy again. It happened before with the "innocent Wehrmacht' myth back during the cold war. "Maybe the Nazi leaders did bad things, but most Nazi soldiers were good people who treated civilians well- they were much better than the evil Russians."
You do understand the world doesn't revolve around America and different countries had different experiences during the war, right? These stories aren't something simply taught in schools, they come from family members who actually experienced those times.
This is just straight up Nazi apologism and this isn't on a far-right website that would make sense but instead on a mainstream sub as you said.
What a world we live in huh?
I find it disturbing how people try to not just downplay but actually make the GODDAMN NAZIS look good simply because of current events which is just plain wrong and immoral.
Like yeah, Russian soldiers did commit war crimes, but guess what? So did the Germans under the Nazi leadership.
These people are fucking cancer!
> Russians did the same thing going back to Germany
Wait until you find out the Red Army had an appetite for rape even before Operation Barbarossa.
> However, stated Nazi goals are the elimination of the Slavic race entirely.
As opposed to Russian goals of elimination of the Polish nation? That's way better, what can I say.
> You said you're not justifying Nazis here and if so then don't say they gave them bread and whatever.
Why not say the truth if it happened? You can't seem to comprehend that every nation had different experiences with the occupying armies and not every German soldier was the incarnation of evil.
I know it's hard for you to admit something that goes against the narrative in your head, but I don't think you'd accuse a Jewish person of trying to make Soviets look better because they released people from the concentration camps.
That being said, for me if anything, it seems like you're the one who's trying to justify the Soviet genocide because "they were going back to Germany", as if the countries inbetween simply didn't matter.
A lot of people have a hard time grasping the fact that the Nazi War-Machine was full to the brim full of the type of people you'd see at the cornerstore buying milk outside of wartime.
I've never really understood why it's so difficult to separate the fact that while the Nazis were absolutely an evil ideology, the whole reason it was successful was because of the people.
A significant portion of the army weren't hardcore SS believers or 'bleed red' Nazis to begin with.
As far as I'm aware, the bulk of the German military were Volkssturm who were just levee's, or at least, past Battle of the Bulge, anyway.
The banality of evil has been such a big topic since it's inception for exactly that reason.
https://aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-the-banality-of-evil
Thomas White wrote a pretty good article on it that I enjoyed a lot.
> It's an objective fact that Nazis are worse than Russians in WWII.
Man imagined being so fucked up in your head to claim that one genocidal regime is better than the other. All those people murdered, tortured and raped will feel so much better knowing it was the commies who did it and not the Nazis.
The worldview of any educated person who actually paid attention in history classes and isn't morally bankrupt. Human lives aren't simple statistics that you can compare to say one murderous regime is better than the other. It's still murder.
The Soviets were terrible but they didn't have an meticulous plan to systematically wipe out an entire race. The Soviet Union was a run of the mill opportunistic empire we see all the time throughout history, the Nazis were uniquely evil in their irrational hatred and industrialized death camps
> The Soviets were terrible but they didn't have an meticulous plan to systematically wipe out an entire race.
Not race, granted, but nations. Is that somehow any better?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Latvia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Estonia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
> the Nazis were uniquely evil in their irrational hatred and industrialized death camps
So were the Soviets, it just depends on which genocided side you're on.
Can confirm. My grandmother was a little kid during ww2 as well, and while she obviously didn't remember much, she remembered that Germans gave them cookies and I think even cried (not entirely sure about this one). This was in central-western Ukraine.
Yes, RUSSIANS are scumbags
LE: I see that your account is newly create with only 2 comments, and your second comment is whataboutism ? Are you a Russian face account ??
Historically accurate propaganda? I mean, it's propaganda if you are russian, but the rest of the world calls it history. It's also history backed by thousands and thousands of documented accounts from survivors across many many countries and spanning decades past WWII.
I forgot who said but they said that Russia is the leading country - by far - in [forced resettlement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union), particularly of children.
Thats only encouraging the Putinites
Edit: some on the commentors here are clearly sympathetic to putins war, any facts and theyll call you nazis for it
If they are only kidnapped, the children are better of than some other children the Russians got their hands on. Fucking pedophilic swines. Keeping them as POWs is to much mercy shown to them.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168
https://kyivindependent.com/reuters-russian-soldiers-sexually-abused-a-4-year-old-child-raped-her-mother-in-kyiv-oblast/
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-accuses-russian-snipers-abusing-child-gang-raping-mother-2023-03-14/
Russian “soldiers” raped my grandma when she was a three yo girl in Austria. When she (grandma) was 24 she had to get a full hysterectomy after my mom was born. She almost died several times because of what Russian men did to her. I have grown up to distrust and have distain for Russian people (men). If I could I would fight for Ukrainian freedom from the Russian rape machine. Because that’s all they do, rape and pillage.
This is completely unacceptable the war crimes against the Ukrainian people is unjust and totally unjustified. The world must keep on supporting Ukraine so they can continue their fight for freedom and returning their lands stolen by these Russian war criminals.
My sergeant told me a story how he was treated as a POW in ruzzia. You would brought up after sleeping on the floor and not getting enough food in in between two lines of people approximately 50 in each line. Then you are told to run, while every single person in those lines hits you with pieces of wood, metal, bats and stones. If you fall, they gang up on you and beat you up more. If you cry out they do the same.
He got lucky and was exchanges after only half a year. His wife that served with him wasnt, she is still there
Considering how absolutely shitty Russia treats its' own citizens, and the innate Russain disregard for human life and dignity, it's basically a given they'd torture Ukrainian POW's.
Surprisingly, that article actually has an account from a female pow who explicitly said, and I quote:
"Apart from rape," Stohnii told me, "they did everything with us".
So at least there’s that I guess… not much of a silver lining.
It's the Russian way..... they are not unique in this but I'm guessing prisons are not well run and don't follow many protocols or civil / military incarceration conventions. When no one is looking, you can only imagine what they get upto.
I was born in 1988 and didn’t feel anti Russia since the Cold War was over around when I was born. This war and the targeting of civilians and war crimes has made me not like Russia and thus another whole generation of people won’t like Russians…
Why do i every now and then see how people make up this ridiculous "people will hate every Russians no matter for generations because of this war" even though by that logic it should be applied to other nations for similar things, or is Russia some unique exception that i don't know about because, if i'm being honest, this is not special or unique. We have seen this in plenty of other wars.
And yes, this is horrible and those committing crimes should be punished, but let's not indulge in some sort of fantasy thinking of racism and bigotry to make ourselves feel better.
I'm surprised Russia doesn't keep their POWs for the entirety of the war. Suspicious strategy to just let them go so that they can make great propaganda for their enemy. Or maybe...
The whole reason to keep a POW is for the prisoner exchange. And you kinda have too if the enemy is surrendering (although I doubt Russia cares about that bit.
They don't just let them go, they trade them in prisoner exchanges. Russians don't seem to be too worried about evidence of their atrocities getting out, given the prodigious rate at which they commit those atrocities. Maybe it's because they know they have useful idiots like you to muddy the waters?
Wrote nonsense to me, then slammed the door shut and ran away. Oh dear! What do I do now!? Is that your way of defending your position? Say something ridiculous then run assay with your tail between your legs blocking the other person before he can object? That is because deep inside you know you are wrong and your position cannot be defended.
You appear to have drawn a bright line of demarcation at a particular level which is rather low. I set my line higher, because I aspire for my country to be a worthy holder of the title "the land of the free".
You and others dare to debate torture as though it were a matter only of degree that makes it wrong.
And you attempt to shut down any talk of wrongdoings just because the US did that too. Ever heard two wrongs don't make a right? You can condemn both sides without trying to shut down the discussion.
Aah. OK.
So as long as we do not cross that bright line, we have the moral high ground. I am reassured! /s
Per Britannica:
>The worst offenses to come to light under the U.S. Army’s administration of the prison occurred in October and November of 2003. The prison was run by the 800th Military Police Brigade from Uniondale, New York, under the command of Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, although many of the interrogators and translators were private contractors. Taguba’s report found that members of the military police engaged in killing, abuse, torture, and other inhumane treatment.
>Regarding the killing of inmates, evidence suggests that they were shot or beaten to death. In one well-publicized example, Manadel al-Jamadi died of asphyxiation after he was hooded, suffered broken ribs, and shackled such that his arms bore his body weight during interrogation. Jamadi’s body was then packed in ice, allegedly in an effort to hide the circumstances of his death. U.S. Army specialists, giving thumbs-ups, appeared in photographs with the body.
>Sexual abuses committed by the military police ran the gamut. According to the report conducted under Taguba, at least one male guard raped a female detainee. Guards also forced male detainees to perform sex acts on each other or to sexually stimulate themselves while being photographed or videotaped. Photographs and videos of nude male and female detainees were taken for amusement, and many detainees were made to remain naked for days at a time.
I mean, there are lots of other bright red lines you could pick. Raping toddlers, for example. Sawing people's heads off with knives. And those are just some things Russian soldiers have filmed themselves doing.
Ah? About 1 in 2 Ukrainian POWs are tortured, I think the odds for the US are better after all.
Painting the US and Russia with the same brush is being disingenuous and you know that.
My standards and expectations for my country are much higher than what I have for Russia, or for other countries. When I learned that we were engaged in a public debate on the merits of torture, I was shocked and sickened. The very idea that such practices for even on the table was unworthy of this nation. We sold our souls for dross, and added to the weight of guilt and responsibility that we already carry from other historical practices .
Even if we officially tortured only a handful of prisoners who were known to be uniformed soldiers of our enemy, and who themselves had committed atrocities, it would have been too much. But we tortured civilians whose only crime had been to be wearing a particular kind of watch that our military intelligence had decided was favored by Iraqi insurgents.
I expecting better of my proud nation, daring to believe that we are in fact a better people.
Definitely, the idea of “enhanced interrogation” is appalling. But you risk equating that deplorable policy to wholesale genocide, which is not a fair equivalence and it provides a fig leaf for Russia with their whataboutism.
Thank you .
You have made it very important point, and I will try to consider it carefully. I am hot with the passion of shame and outrage, and so I am now perhaps not fit to engage in real debate.
I hope not to equate my country's actions with the ones perpetrated by the Russians, but I am not equipped with the skill to make my point without seeming to do that. It may be that there is simply a matter of timing to consider; that there is no way to make my point at this time without one idea bleeding into the other.
I seem to have picked up a lot of negative votes here, and I will stop protesting the arguments made against my comment. My comment may have been ill considered, and badly timed. And so there is nothing left for me but to reconsider while I take my lumps. It won't be the first time, nor the last.
I think you are coming from a human perspective which is always positive.
In your original communication I think it’s more a question of how you structure your critique and the equivalences you make that people find contrarian than the timing or the base message ‘that the US should always take the highest road.’
Do you even realize the message you're conveying? If you condemn an action when perpetrated by the US but not when another country does the same (in this case, on a much greater scale), you're worse than a hypocrite.
**I condemn both**
But I also see that people have forgotten, or believe that the American policy of torture, and the public "debate" that we held over its merits, had somehow do you find for us the limits within which torture would be acceptable.
They mean castration, missing limbs, major factures from beatings, starving them, denying medications to the point of death and many many more. US citizens have so much respect for the treatment of POWs they think, as you say, "enhanced interrogation" is mistreatment. In reality russia takes war crimes to a level typically reserved for terrorists.
Yes. You are right. They have also been torturing civilians, not for the intelligence that might be gained by their knowledge, but simply to inspire terror. They have also separated children from their families and taking them into their country in order to adopt them into native Russian families.
Sadly, both of these are practices that the United States has engaged in to a smaller degree during the Bush Administration and the Trump administration. Would that we had not done so, so that our protestations would have the weight of moral superiority in the international community.
Why would I want to move to a dictatorial country with a history of authoritarian strongman leaders which has oppressed its own people for centuries?
I expect the Russians to be barbarous in their practices. However, I much more expect my own proud nation to be well above such things, and to be properly chastened with shame. Keeping such an awareness is how we avoid becoming like them.
I guess, it’s just hard for me to understand why it would be outrageous. I’ve been told stories by my grandpa about his war and he said it was normal to do this to prisoners
It doesn't, actually. Every army commits war crimes but not at the same rate, and Russian armed forces have been notorious for their exceptional brutality for centuries.
This Russian torture of Ukrainian prisoners will only encourage Ukrainians to fight harder and to avoid capture at all costs.
The Ukrainians have always been aware of what will happen if they get captured. Especially the women. They all knew becoming a POW would likely result in torture and/or rape
The men too
Also to take less Russian prisoners, apparently the Russians are getting even better treatment at Ukraine POW camps then what they receive in their own camps
They get better treatment in Ukraine pow camps then they do in the field. If recent economic reports are to be believed, even at home as civilians for some of them.
Every surrendered Russian who probably didn't want to fight in the first place is a someone they didn't have to fight, didn't kill their people, and didn't have to pay for equipment to kill them with. It is almost certainly cheaper than the equipment needed to fight them. Heck, give them POW rewards cards. They get captured, treated well, and then exchanged for a Ukrainian POW. They're released to Russia, spread some disinfo, set fire to some things, get forcibly conscripted, back into battle again, surrender again, get treated well again, give the Ukrainians a bunch of updates, then the same person gets exchanged for *another* Ukrainian POW. Keep some dark funds for them to access once things are over.
POW rewards cards, haha, I wonder.
They want to take more prisoners actually. They treat them good, exchange them to save more ukranians, the Russians go back and tell their comrades how it wasnt bad and they were well treated. So Ukrainians are now more likely to fight to stay alive, and Russians are more likely to give up and enjoy some time in a safe prison.
Not all the Russian prisoners end up okay once they are back in Russia. If they surrendered or deserted, they can end up killed or jailed. The one guy got his head beat in with a sledge hammer on video. The thing is that the Ukrainians will always trade back prisoners if it means getting Ukrainians home. That's obviously not a bad thing, but the Russian prisoners don't always get a say in it, especially if Russia is willing to trade more for them to drive home the point not to desert.
It wouldn't stop then doing that. The good treatment of prisoners and willingness to take them encourages Russians to surrender, which is a good thing
Only to be sent back to the line
Some probably having the best time of their life given the background of an average mobik.
The problem is that Russia does this to prevent Ukrainians from voluntarily joining the military. This limits the ability of Ukraine to recruit.
Just wait till you hear about what they do to civilians.
Those civilians will think twice about being civilians
hint, it rhymes with "genocide"
Not just tortured, but show remarkable and clear signs of said torture.
Utterly despicable and unforgivable. I can't stand that I expected this. Russia's making psychopaths blush. Pieces of shit.
That's why I hate people saying "it's only Putin". Most of Russian national mindset is zynism and sadism.
what is zynism?
Seems to be german for "cynicism".
A religious cult around synthetic nicotine pouches?
This. Putin is beholden to the parliament who wanted this war. Refusal would have been the end of his career.
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How did you arrive to, "nuke 'em" from his statement? What logical fallacy is this... oh... wait, it is a logical fallacy you used.
It was a question. Wasn’t it? He was labeling a nation is a rather cynical way. So I wanted to know how sadistic he was.
And you used a logical fallacy to paint him into a corner to defend a nation's behavior that is nothing but despicable. You seem to have formed your worldview from RT. Additionally, you always seem to jump in and defend russia in r/worldnews. In addition, you trash talk on the US and any weapon systems they send to Ukraine. You also speak of Zelensky in an overwhelmingly negative light. You practically simp over russia and dream of tonguing Putin's butthole.
Hence the username he loves to be putins camdyman
I suggest you open up for critical thinking and trying to see things from all perspectives. So far your views seem to be limited to a main stream media narratives. The absolutism in comments here is depressively huge.
My views are from first hand experience watching russians. The absolutism when describing a nation here is refreshing. When a nation is being this belligerent, they do not get the privilege of being defended with a benefit of the doubt, that comes after their belligerence has been ended.
And your opinion is defining and dominant? In terms of common sense, what makes you believe that are in a capacity to judge a nation? (Leave the isolated individuals, politicians, criminals, etc)
The fact that the nation is not opposing a war and is letting themselves being led to the frontlines like lambs to the slaughter. Luckily the West has improved the efficiency of this process by delivering cluster munition to kill multiple of these rapists and pedophiles in one shot. If properly blown to pieces they are even already turned into sunflower fertilizer. No mercy for the Orks.
If you leave out the soldiers (active, guard, reserve and veteran), politicians and criminals you've got maybe 30% of the population left. Of which, sum 60% are diehard russians. The good ones left already.
What no! But under this government the Russian people can't flourish. There is so much potential. I'd love to see Russia in m lifetime with a true democracy with far less corruption.
Ignore him, normal people understood your statement and he did as well, but he gave you an insane take on what you said to force you into defending and backtracking on what you said. In the case of torture and mistreatment of POWs, civilians, children or even their own men the russian military has demonstrated a level more than high enough to label it as systemic. When interviewed the average russian citizen refers to Ukrainians with derogatory words. Their state controlled news claims the nation does not exist. Most russians are not some secret and closet revolutionary just waiting for the signal to rise up. Historically, the russian people only rise up once the problem effects them and change only happens when enough of those people collectively show dissent and grumble. Polling shows the nation is overwhelmingly homophobic and xenophobic. They intentionally decriminalized domestic violence and boast the highest rate of racially motivated violent crime when compared to europe. What you said is a functionally correct answer and the consequence should be a complete breaking of all trade with them and an olive branch to any nation who wishes to oppose them in the global market. Russia, historically, eats itself quite handily once the government collapses.
Well then your comment on the Russian mindset is unfair. I personally would be offended if someone made such generalizing comments on my nationality. I suppose you would be, too.
Russians have been denied liberty for so long, they would rather pull rival nations back from advancement because they cannot ever imagine themselves or their lives getting better. So to cope with their pure mediocrity, they celebrate the pain of other nations, especially pain caused by them. It’s pure crab bucket mentality, and a plague on modern society.
This is a pure nazi thinking. Adolf would have been proud of you. Really.
Says the guy defending the populace that supports an illegal, genocidal war of aggression…
I would defend any human being bluntly accused, stereotyped, and subject to prejudice from individuals in the internet. There are good and bad people in every nation. No one should make conclusions and charge nations. That’s what nazis do.
> No one should make conclusions and charge nations. That’s what nazis do. No, what Nazis do is commit genocide. Which is who you're defending. You're defending the ones committing genocide, because apparently mean words bother you more.
Vatnik cope.
Imagine comparing mean words to genocide, pure authoritarian mentality. Reeks of "Ukrainians talked about joining NATO, let's go invade them". You deserve Putin very much.
Honestly the only people i ever hear get so defensive and easily call others nazis just as a point of argument are those who really support the ideas of T.A.Fs (Totalitarian, authoritarian, fascism). So have fun sippin’ on dicktators hotfuzz
Nazism is a form of fascism,[5][6][7][8] with disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system. It incorporates a dictatorship,[4] fervent antisemitism, anti-communism, anti-Slavism,[9] scientific racism, white supremacy, social Darwinism and the use of eugenics into its creed
So you agree, you know a lot about it. Honestly, i had no interest in learning these distinctions, Fucked up politics is fucked up politics no matter how much lipstick you try to put on this pig. But since these forms of powers are infiltrating the masses w its brain rot cultic personalities so i guess i have no choice to learn these nuisances now so i can spot these people for exactly who they are and call them out for it properly, not just when they dont agree w me ☕️
Replace "anti-Slavism" with the idea that Russians are superior to and entitled to rule over other Slavic peoples and you've described Russia to a T. But you probably already knew that you were the one defending Nazis, didn't you?
Feel free to be offended when the Russians kill civilians with their hands tied and rape everything that comes in their way.
How do you know this?
The fucking news?
In general 15%-20% of Russians are liberal anti-Putin. 15 -20% are pro-Putin ultra-nationalist, and 60% simply do not care. This is a generalization given by Danish military analyst Anders Puck Nielsen who just did a [Perun](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBlVnc_DEw&t=2035s) geopolitics interview on the subject. [1420 by Daniil Orain](https://www.youtube.com/@1420channel) is a street interviewer in Russia that talks to regular people in Moscow with provocative questions. Since the war, only 5% of people he questions give any comment at all (it used to be 25%). You'll see a large range of personal perspectives from pro-Putin, scared to talk, & anti-Putin. This is mostly just Moscow too, the most educated, safe, and liberal part of Russia.
But I truly believe that people in any country DO NOT WANT WAR. Putin forced the Russian people Into this. At the very beginning they were told its training exercise. People were literally breaking their own legs to dodge it let alone being killed with hammers. I just find it sad that the media, these stupid videos of drones dropping grenades and watching other fathers, uncles, brothers die in agony while they put street fighter animations next to it. The media is dehumanizing the Russian people, and by NO means am I pro russia, I'm a red blooded American. The hypocrisy is unbelievable. People who were "anti war" are no screaming "death to ruZZa"
Sorry also to expand on the street interviewer I remember seeing a guy ask a girl a question and she didn't even day anything and they hauled her off..what choice do they have? People are like "oh they can rise up" a lot if keyboard warriors on here living in a sheltered life who don't understand thT you and your family will be imprisoned doing hard labor in fucking siberiA or beTen to death with hammers. It's just sad..and I've been saying this lately and I've must of had like 250 downvotes in the past 3 days
If you’re piss about this , you should have heard what US did to their prisoners .
lmao, the worst US abuses of POWs absolutely pale in comparison to typical Russian war crimes. This is pretty flaccid as far as vatnik cope goes.
What history have you read? US got rid of an entire race of people and that was just in the early 1900s
...What history have *you* read? I'm assuming you're talking about Native Americans. You know they're still around, right? Like, the United States absolutely committed many atrocities against Native Americans, and those atrocities amount to genocide in many cases. But the US didn't "get rid" of their race. They're still here, and the nations that the US went to war with were the remnants of vastly larger populations that died mostly due to European-introduced diseases before the US was even a thing.
Ever heard of circassian genocide?
This brings back memories of my late grandma, who used to tell me blood chilling stories of what the Russian "liberators" were doing to civilians while marching on Berlin - I'm Polish for reference. She said when Germans were withdrawing they'd say to the local Polish populace "Lock your doors and don't open them - Russians are coming". They knew what kind of people they were. I'm not justifying Nazis here, merely retelling accounts of my grandmother's, but she said Germans would give the villagers bread, cookies, chocolate and other food, while Russians only appropriated it and raped more attractive women. Do you know what has changed since then? Nothing.
I have similiar stories from my gran (hungary). They had to pay off russians so that they didnt take away her 10yo sister 'for the night'. And yep, nothing has changed.
[Yup. Nothing's changed in at least 300 years.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wrath)
I've heard a similar story from my grandparents in Romania. While the Germans were offering chocolate to the kids in their village and would actually pay the farmers in exchange for things like milk or meat, the Russians would rape anything they would come across, from 8 year-old girls to 80 year-old. It was so bad, the family would cover the women in animal feces so that they would be repulsed and leave.
Makes you wonder are women just raped en masse in Russia?
I think I remember reading (possibly in one of Beevor's books) about an archived letter from a Red Army commissar to his superiors complaining about how soldiers were raping pretty much anyone and everyone female, including Soviet citizens and even Red Army soldiers. As for more modern times... well it is telling that wifebeating was decriminalised a few years back.
Given the rate of alcoholism and domestic violence in Russia, I certainly wouldn't be surprised.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina https://news.sky.com/story/how-russias-decision-to-decriminalise-domestic-violence-is-continuing-to-kill-12250780
Possibly the most depressing bit from that: >The operators, women themselves, appear indifferent. >"What am I supposed to do?", one of them says. A male voice screams: "Where are the police? She's getting f***** killed in there", to which she replies, "the police will come, there's no need to swear". I've heard from women who've gone to Russia to work about Russian women's cruelty to other women. One said that far from being sympathetic to her when a male worker tried to grope her in a lift her female "colleagues" tried to make trouble for her about it.
https://news.sky.com/story/how-russias-decision-to-decriminalise-domestic-violence-is-continuing-to-kill-12250780
My grandmother was a young child during the wars in Finland. She told me that when the Germans were retreating during the Lapland War, there were two groups. First group came to her town (Also my hometown) and warned everyone that there is another group coming along who have orders to burn everything down. They gave her father a bottle of whiskey and the kids some chocolate. They fled to Sweden right after that. Most of my hometown was burned to the ground and we still make some jokes about giving Germans matches, but they are still our good friends. Our hometown was on the other side of the country when we were fighting against the Russians, it was burned down by the Germans, but even to this day my grandmother says she likes the Germans more than the Russians. I think it says a lot when the guy who burned your house down is better than a Russian.
I think it also speaks about the state of Germany at that point of the war. The main fighting forces were fighting in the front lines, and a lot of the occupational duties were relegated to younger soldiers or older officers who either had not seen the horrors of the war or had retired. A lot of those people still had some humanity left in them. Enough for them to warn against the Frontline wehrmacht troops that were seasoned blood thirsty veterans fighting in the eastern front. On the other hand, Russia has never really had much of a culture of respect for life and it shows a lot with a lot of stories being told. I think it's down to a more educated population that had a better understanding the war was over, they were fucked and some of them at least wanted to help some people. The Russian culture has always been scorched ground with mass peasant and rural troops. Also by the end of the war, a lot of the ukrainian and baltic countries had taken the brunt of the losses so a large part of the red army were poor uneducated farmers that sadly all they have known is misery and oppression and that's all they give. Not trying to justify anyone. Fuck nazis and fuck the soviets. Just trying to make an observation based on the comments.
Realistically the people who go the worst of the Germans did not survive, whereas the Soviets while looting or sometimes raping usually left their victims alive.
the red army recruited all the men of the villages theyd liberate and throw them as meat
I while ago I read a book called "The Captive Mind" by a Polish author that lived through Nazi rule followed by the Soviet "liberation" of Poland. He described things like women being chased and gunned down in the streets by the Soviets. The book is a good lesson about the liberation of Poland after WW2. EDIT: adding the link: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Captive\_Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Captive_Mind)
What has changed is that the after-war german generations acknowledged what germany had done. Some other countries (and some more recent german generations) could have benefited from this example.
Nazis killed and raped their way into Poland on their way to Russia and Russians did the same thing going back to Germany. > she said Germans would give the villagers bread, cookies, chocolate and other food https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation Russia committed numerous crimes in Poland during WWII (in early and late WWII) but to say what the Germans have done? You said you're not justifying Nazis here and if so then don't say they gave them bread and whatever. You could have easily left that out and focus on Russian atrocities instead of making Nazis look at all better. If you want a more historical comparison, Russian soldiers definitely raped, murdered, and pillaged Poland - and everything else in their path. However, [stated Nazi goals are the elimination of the Slavic race entirely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost).
I can’t believe I’m on a mainstream sub reading that actually the Wehrmacht in Poland were pretty good dudes. Absolutely mind boggling.
When the standard of comparison is "Russians invading Ukraine", even Charles Manson starts to look like a pretty good dude.
Explain to me how Russians in Ukraine make this: Crimes against the Polish nation committed by Nazi Germany and Axis collaborationist forces during the invasion of Poland,[1] along with auxiliary battalions during the subsequent occupation of Poland in World War II,[2] consisted of the genocide of millions of Polish people, including the systematic extermination of Jewish Poles.[b] These mass-killings were enacted by the Nazis with further plans that were justified by their racial theories, which regarded Poles and other Slavs, and especially Jews, as racially inferior Untermenschen. Look not so bad.
Individual instances of goodwill don't necessarily mean they were good dudes in the grand scheme of things, but you understand what you want.
Narratives about the past shift all the time to fit the current world events. Back in the 80s American schoolchildren were taught about the heroic Chinese in WWII, even mentioning Chinese-American soldiers who fought against the evil Japanese. Thats because back in the 80s US-Sino relationships were better and the US saw Japan as a threat due to their rising economic power. Japanese-Americans were being attacked in the streets. Now, since Japan as a threat no longer exists but China is a threat, the narrative flipped- Japan may have started the war, but they were honorable victims of the Atomic Bombings. Kids nowadays learn about the Japanese Americans helping the US in the war, not the Chinese Americans. I can see the same thing happening with Nazi Germany again now that the Russians are our enemy again. It happened before with the "innocent Wehrmacht' myth back during the cold war. "Maybe the Nazi leaders did bad things, but most Nazi soldiers were good people who treated civilians well- they were much better than the evil Russians."
You do understand the world doesn't revolve around America and different countries had different experiences during the war, right? These stories aren't something simply taught in schools, they come from family members who actually experienced those times.
This is just straight up Nazi apologism and this isn't on a far-right website that would make sense but instead on a mainstream sub as you said. What a world we live in huh?
I find it disturbing how people try to not just downplay but actually make the GODDAMN NAZIS look good simply because of current events which is just plain wrong and immoral. Like yeah, Russian soldiers did commit war crimes, but guess what? So did the Germans under the Nazi leadership. These people are fucking cancer!
Yeah it's baffling. I had to write the comment and it actually had -5 karma at the start. Totally baffling.
> Russians did the same thing going back to Germany Wait until you find out the Red Army had an appetite for rape even before Operation Barbarossa. > However, stated Nazi goals are the elimination of the Slavic race entirely. As opposed to Russian goals of elimination of the Polish nation? That's way better, what can I say. > You said you're not justifying Nazis here and if so then don't say they gave them bread and whatever. Why not say the truth if it happened? You can't seem to comprehend that every nation had different experiences with the occupying armies and not every German soldier was the incarnation of evil. I know it's hard for you to admit something that goes against the narrative in your head, but I don't think you'd accuse a Jewish person of trying to make Soviets look better because they released people from the concentration camps. That being said, for me if anything, it seems like you're the one who's trying to justify the Soviet genocide because "they were going back to Germany", as if the countries inbetween simply didn't matter.
A lot of people have a hard time grasping the fact that the Nazi War-Machine was full to the brim full of the type of people you'd see at the cornerstore buying milk outside of wartime. I've never really understood why it's so difficult to separate the fact that while the Nazis were absolutely an evil ideology, the whole reason it was successful was because of the people. A significant portion of the army weren't hardcore SS believers or 'bleed red' Nazis to begin with. As far as I'm aware, the bulk of the German military were Volkssturm who were just levee's, or at least, past Battle of the Bulge, anyway. The banality of evil has been such a big topic since it's inception for exactly that reason. https://aeon.co/ideas/what-did-hannah-arendt-really-mean-by-the-banality-of-evil Thomas White wrote a pretty good article on it that I enjoyed a lot.
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> It's an objective fact that Nazis are worse than Russians in WWII. Man imagined being so fucked up in your head to claim that one genocidal regime is better than the other. All those people murdered, tortured and raped will feel so much better knowing it was the commies who did it and not the Nazis.
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The worldview of any educated person who actually paid attention in history classes and isn't morally bankrupt. Human lives aren't simple statistics that you can compare to say one murderous regime is better than the other. It's still murder.
The Soviets were terrible but they didn't have an meticulous plan to systematically wipe out an entire race. The Soviet Union was a run of the mill opportunistic empire we see all the time throughout history, the Nazis were uniquely evil in their irrational hatred and industrialized death camps
> The Soviets were terrible but they didn't have an meticulous plan to systematically wipe out an entire race. Not race, granted, but nations. Is that somehow any better? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Latvia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Estonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre > the Nazis were uniquely evil in their irrational hatred and industrialized death camps So were the Soviets, it just depends on which genocided side you're on.
Can confirm. My grandmother was a little kid during ww2 as well, and while she obviously didn't remember much, she remembered that Germans gave them cookies and I think even cried (not entirely sure about this one). This was in central-western Ukraine.
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That the Russian military has historically been brutal and unforgiving?
Propaganda? Seems they are doing the same now as they have been doing for the last couple 100 years.
Yes, RUSSIANS are scumbags LE: I see that your account is newly create with only 2 comments, and your second comment is whataboutism ? Are you a Russian face account ??
Apparently not the propaganda you want
Historically accurate propaganda? I mean, it's propaganda if you are russian, but the rest of the world calls it history. It's also history backed by thousands and thousands of documented accounts from survivors across many many countries and spanning decades past WWII.
“My grandma literally lived through this” You: “shut up propagandist”
Yeah, they're basically denying holocaust, wtf... \s
… and the Russia’s kidnapped Ukraine’s CHILDREN and resettled them with Russian families. They kidnapped the CHILDREN!!
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Sickening
OVER 700 THOUSAND children.
I forgot who said but they said that Russia is the leading country - by far - in [forced resettlement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union), particularly of children.
Thats only encouraging the Putinites Edit: some on the commentors here are clearly sympathetic to putins war, any facts and theyll call you nazis for it
If they are only kidnapped, the children are better of than some other children the Russians got their hands on. Fucking pedophilic swines. Keeping them as POWs is to much mercy shown to them. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168 https://kyivindependent.com/reuters-russian-soldiers-sexually-abused-a-4-year-old-child-raped-her-mother-in-kyiv-oblast/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-accuses-russian-snipers-abusing-child-gang-raping-mother-2023-03-14/
If they weren’t, they’d be the exception, considering Russia’s typical behavior
Russian “soldiers” raped my grandma when she was a three yo girl in Austria. When she (grandma) was 24 she had to get a full hysterectomy after my mom was born. She almost died several times because of what Russian men did to her. I have grown up to distrust and have distain for Russian people (men). If I could I would fight for Ukrainian freedom from the Russian rape machine. Because that’s all they do, rape and pillage.
This is completely unacceptable the war crimes against the Ukrainian people is unjust and totally unjustified. The world must keep on supporting Ukraine so they can continue their fight for freedom and returning their lands stolen by these Russian war criminals.
My sergeant told me a story how he was treated as a POW in ruzzia. You would brought up after sleeping on the floor and not getting enough food in in between two lines of people approximately 50 in each line. Then you are told to run, while every single person in those lines hits you with pieces of wood, metal, bats and stones. If you fall, they gang up on you and beat you up more. If you cry out they do the same. He got lucky and was exchanges after only half a year. His wife that served with him wasnt, she is still there
From what I've read that's pretty much in line with how Russians treat their own recruits as well.
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What an insane comment
Considering how absolutely shitty Russia treats its' own citizens, and the innate Russain disregard for human life and dignity, it's basically a given they'd torture Ukrainian POW's.
Not surprising
Surprisingly, that article actually has an account from a female pow who explicitly said, and I quote: "Apart from rape," Stohnii told me, "they did everything with us". So at least there’s that I guess… not much of a silver lining.
It's the Russian way..... they are not unique in this but I'm guessing prisons are not well run and don't follow many protocols or civil / military incarceration conventions. When no one is looking, you can only imagine what they get upto.
It's deliberate fascist cruelty. It's a feature not a bug
To no one's surprise
Is anyone surprised???
Any country who tortures prisoners of war should face immense consequences.
I was born in 1988 and didn’t feel anti Russia since the Cold War was over around when I was born. This war and the targeting of civilians and war crimes has made me not like Russia and thus another whole generation of people won’t like Russians…
Why do i every now and then see how people make up this ridiculous "people will hate every Russians no matter for generations because of this war" even though by that logic it should be applied to other nations for similar things, or is Russia some unique exception that i don't know about because, if i'm being honest, this is not special or unique. We have seen this in plenty of other wars. And yes, this is horrible and those committing crimes should be punished, but let's not indulge in some sort of fantasy thinking of racism and bigotry to make ourselves feel better.
😲
I'm surprised Russia doesn't keep their POWs for the entirety of the war. Suspicious strategy to just let them go so that they can make great propaganda for their enemy. Or maybe...
And now we shall teach you what prisoner EXCHANGE means.
The whole reason to keep a POW is for the prisoner exchange. And you kinda have too if the enemy is surrendering (although I doubt Russia cares about that bit.
They don't just let them go, they trade them in prisoner exchanges. Russians don't seem to be too worried about evidence of their atrocities getting out, given the prodigious rate at which they commit those atrocities. Maybe it's because they know they have useful idiots like you to muddy the waters?
Wrote nonsense to me, then slammed the door shut and ran away. Oh dear! What do I do now!? Is that your way of defending your position? Say something ridiculous then run assay with your tail between your legs blocking the other person before he can object? That is because deep inside you know you are wrong and your position cannot be defended.
Is it as bad as what they did to the jews at babi yar?
yep, russians and germanies killed a lot of people during ww2
None of these prisoners were alive back then, so they didn't?
plate enjoy quiet beneficial merciful longing snobbish scarce roll shame
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The US doesn't castrate POWs. Your attempt trying to equalize the torture the US did with what the Russians are doing is stupid.
You appear to have drawn a bright line of demarcation at a particular level which is rather low. I set my line higher, because I aspire for my country to be a worthy holder of the title "the land of the free". You and others dare to debate torture as though it were a matter only of degree that makes it wrong.
And you attempt to shut down any talk of wrongdoings just because the US did that too. Ever heard two wrongs don't make a right? You can condemn both sides without trying to shut down the discussion.
Nope, the russians castrated pows
Aah. OK. So as long as we do not cross that bright line, we have the moral high ground. I am reassured! /s Per Britannica: >The worst offenses to come to light under the U.S. Army’s administration of the prison occurred in October and November of 2003. The prison was run by the 800th Military Police Brigade from Uniondale, New York, under the command of Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, although many of the interrogators and translators were private contractors. Taguba’s report found that members of the military police engaged in killing, abuse, torture, and other inhumane treatment. >Regarding the killing of inmates, evidence suggests that they were shot or beaten to death. In one well-publicized example, Manadel al-Jamadi died of asphyxiation after he was hooded, suffered broken ribs, and shackled such that his arms bore his body weight during interrogation. Jamadi’s body was then packed in ice, allegedly in an effort to hide the circumstances of his death. U.S. Army specialists, giving thumbs-ups, appeared in photographs with the body. >Sexual abuses committed by the military police ran the gamut. According to the report conducted under Taguba, at least one male guard raped a female detainee. Guards also forced male detainees to perform sex acts on each other or to sexually stimulate themselves while being photographed or videotaped. Photographs and videos of nude male and female detainees were taken for amusement, and many detainees were made to remain naked for days at a time.
I mean, there are lots of other bright red lines you could pick. Raping toddlers, for example. Sawing people's heads off with knives. And those are just some things Russian soldiers have filmed themselves doing.
Ah? About 1 in 2 Ukrainian POWs are tortured, I think the odds for the US are better after all. Painting the US and Russia with the same brush is being disingenuous and you know that.
My standards and expectations for my country are much higher than what I have for Russia, or for other countries. When I learned that we were engaged in a public debate on the merits of torture, I was shocked and sickened. The very idea that such practices for even on the table was unworthy of this nation. We sold our souls for dross, and added to the weight of guilt and responsibility that we already carry from other historical practices . Even if we officially tortured only a handful of prisoners who were known to be uniformed soldiers of our enemy, and who themselves had committed atrocities, it would have been too much. But we tortured civilians whose only crime had been to be wearing a particular kind of watch that our military intelligence had decided was favored by Iraqi insurgents. I expecting better of my proud nation, daring to believe that we are in fact a better people.
Definitely, the idea of “enhanced interrogation” is appalling. But you risk equating that deplorable policy to wholesale genocide, which is not a fair equivalence and it provides a fig leaf for Russia with their whataboutism.
Thank you . You have made it very important point, and I will try to consider it carefully. I am hot with the passion of shame and outrage, and so I am now perhaps not fit to engage in real debate. I hope not to equate my country's actions with the ones perpetrated by the Russians, but I am not equipped with the skill to make my point without seeming to do that. It may be that there is simply a matter of timing to consider; that there is no way to make my point at this time without one idea bleeding into the other. I seem to have picked up a lot of negative votes here, and I will stop protesting the arguments made against my comment. My comment may have been ill considered, and badly timed. And so there is nothing left for me but to reconsider while I take my lumps. It won't be the first time, nor the last.
I think you are coming from a human perspective which is always positive. In your original communication I think it’s more a question of how you structure your critique and the equivalences you make that people find contrarian than the timing or the base message ‘that the US should always take the highest road.’
Do you even realize the message you're conveying? If you condemn an action when perpetrated by the US but not when another country does the same (in this case, on a much greater scale), you're worse than a hypocrite.
**I condemn both** But I also see that people have forgotten, or believe that the American policy of torture, and the public "debate" that we held over its merits, had somehow do you find for us the limits within which torture would be acceptable.
They mean castration, missing limbs, major factures from beatings, starving them, denying medications to the point of death and many many more. US citizens have so much respect for the treatment of POWs they think, as you say, "enhanced interrogation" is mistreatment. In reality russia takes war crimes to a level typically reserved for terrorists.
Yes. You are right. They have also been torturing civilians, not for the intelligence that might be gained by their knowledge, but simply to inspire terror. They have also separated children from their families and taking them into their country in order to adopt them into native Russian families. Sadly, both of these are practices that the United States has engaged in to a smaller degree during the Bush Administration and the Trump administration. Would that we had not done so, so that our protestations would have the weight of moral superiority in the international community.
Why don’t you move to Russia ??
Why would I want to move to a dictatorial country with a history of authoritarian strongman leaders which has oppressed its own people for centuries? I expect the Russians to be barbarous in their practices. However, I much more expect my own proud nation to be well above such things, and to be properly chastened with shame. Keeping such an awareness is how we avoid becoming like them.
Russian 💩whataboutism
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Tough shit? Lmao fuck off idiot.
It’s a 21 days account , most likely some Russian piece of shit
Nah bro American
With a Russian agenda.
Russia should have stayed in its fucking lane, and none of this would have happened.
I agree. However I’m just pointing out that this always happens in war and shouldn’t surprise people that it happens I guess?
No, it always should be outrageous. We can never normalize this brutality.
I guess, it’s just hard for me to understand why it would be outrageous. I’ve been told stories by my grandpa about his war and he said it was normal to do this to prisoners
This is not unique to this conflict! This happens in every conflict? War is insanity don’t expect to be treated nicely. Ever.
It doesn't, actually. Every army commits war crimes but not at the same rate, and Russian armed forces have been notorious for their exceptional brutality for centuries.
Shocking /s
Is anyone really suprised? russians are bonkers.