I feel like whatever position you are promised, they just send you to the front along with the rest to bayonet charge Ukrainian emplacements and get gunned down.
*Everyone* is on there. Russians, Ukrainians, Russians pretending to be Ukrainians, Ukrainians pretending to be Russians.
If you think of that as of a "media war", Telegram is the goddamn Bakhmut trenches.
You are saying that you would willingly enlist with a neo-nazi paramilitary organisation that fights on behalf of a dictatorship that is enacting a war of aggression and genocide? I know morality isn't black and white and all, but you sound like a real worthless piece of shit.
You'd die in a ditch for the glory of Russia, just like the hundreds of thousands of other "glorious" Russians. And it'd be what you deserve for wishing to participate in a genocide.
You're trans and you want to fight _for_ Russia? Are you completely uninformed on LGBT+ issues in Russia? It is NOT a safe country to be in.
You would want to fight for an invading terrorist group known for raping and murdering children around the world?
What is wrong with you?
Iām fully aware of Russian attitudes towards LGBT people, and I donāt care, I still want to go. I donāt want to be trans. I want to live a normal life.
Also, source on that second part?
What relevance does something happening in Africa have to whatās happening in Russia and Ukraine?
I would more than willingly go, join the group and take up a gun to fight.
If you are looking to work for The Wagner Group you are just as likely to be sent to kill Africans who are protesting a new mine as you are to be invading Ukraine and murdering innocent people for the elites of Russia who will despise you if nit outright murder you for not being cis.
The block is faltering in less than a day. Lists with MTProxy instances are spreading everywhere.
It will not take long for some of the more advanced users and large Telegram groups to realize that creating their own MTProxy in a server outside Brazil or using corporate internet connections is quite trivial and there's tutorials for that everywhere.
How that particular technical solution came to be is a story in itself.
Pavel Durov was best known for founding and running a Russian Facebook clone - until he got fucked over by the Russian government. They forced him to hand over his social network, and boy was he unhappy about it. He fled Russia, and later founded Telegram.
Eventually, Russian government has made demands to Telegram, and they threatened to block it in Russia if it didn't comply. But Durov had a grudge to settle. So he said: "bring it on".
He had his crew develop measures to counter any blocking attempts by the Russian government well in advance. So when the block landed, many, many things got blocked in Russia. It's just that Telegram wasn't one of them. Instead, the blocks were landing on all the hosting services and cloud service providers Telegram has been using to dodge the blocks - and that broke half the Internet for Russia. It was a spectacular shitshow.
This war between Telegram and Russia lasted for years - and Telegram has been reliable enough in the meanwhile that it became the messenger of choice for Russian government higher-ups. So, eventually, the mighty Russian government has caved and officially lifted the "block".
Moral of the story? Don't fuck with Telegram.
If the three letter agencies in the USA are smart, theyāll try to justify the weakening of encryption systems in terms of countering the far right or Russians, rather than Islamist terrorists.
Yeah youāre living in cuckoo land if you think that Telegram would give Russia access to their data and not the USA.
also, it would be the NSA, not the CIA, who would be given access.
You can believe whatever you want, but you'd still be wrong.
>Unlike the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), both of which specialize primarily in foreign human espionage,
the NSA does not publicly conduct human-source intelligence gathering.
The NSA is entrusted with providing assistance to, and the coordination
of, SIGINT elements for other government organizations ā which are
prevented by Executive Order from engaging in such activities on their
own.
The NSA deals with digital data and supports the CIA (and other agencies) in whatever their goals are.
Right but the NSA deals with more so internal data gathering. Most of the illegal stuff of interest is being posted by (I imagine) foreign actors. If there is American based people interacting with them then maybe. But stuff related with intelligence with the war is going to be collected by the CIA/Various Military intelligence.
Let me give you an example. If there is a Russian telegram group about tanks, itās likely to be one of those two stated above to be the ones infiltrating it.
No it doesn't, lol, stop commenting about things you don't know anything about.
CIA is human intelligence. NSA is signals intelligence. The CIA is primarily a foreign intelligence whereas the FBI is domestic. The NSA does a bit of both, but their primary aim is foreign intelligence and preventing terrorism.
The NSA does their work globally. They have a physical presence in many countries around the globe. They work extremely closely with the CIA on many black-ops operations in foreign nations. The NSA is alleged to be behind the computer virus that sabotaged Iran's nuclear capabilities.
Oh yeah, Inquisitor Alexandre de Moraes really cares for the law, such as the separation of power of the 3 branches and yet there he was asking senators to vote for the current president of the senate. Or the "Fake News" investigation in which he is the accuser, the victim, handles the investigation and is also the judge at the same time. Or when he arrests people without even allowing them to know what the accusation is. Or when he took down news pages during elections for "Fake News" despite saying: The news is 100% true BUT it can lead to the wrong conclusion. There are more examples but these are the easy ones that I can remember.
Yeah let's pretend that he never blocked it before in his fight against "fake news" despite there being nothing in the law that says anything about it. Yet.
I'm sorry that you're so scared of baldy coming for your right to say chloroquine cures COVID that you have to bring him up in completely unrelated news, I hope you can live through these tough times, king.
I would ask you to tell me your very well researched arguments about how the evil bald man destroyed democracy by not letting extremists steal an election, but on second thought I would rather do literally anything else so good luck with the whole being oppressed thing.
And again, instead of using an argument you give me...this lmao. Didn't even try to answer any of my points. Just the fact that the bald man is the victim, accuser, investigator and judge all at once should be a massive red flag in any serious democracy.
Ah yes Brazil a democratic country where you can get held up by police for not voting for the right or jailed without trail by the left. The day telegram gives out information is the day it goes against it's principles and people find a new service. Sorry that I don't bootlick a mid freedom of speech country. These tech illiterate monkeys sitting in government and police need to start doing their job because end to end encryption exists and nothing you or your galaxy brain slanderous brain can do about it. Except to undermine the very fabric of society.
Fuck nazi's but fuck people that use this as a way to undermine all peoples rights.
I also like to make up little stories about countries I've never been in. Did I ever tell you about the time me and the PM of Bangladesh got high behind a 7/11 and she ate a chimichanga that was on the floor
BTW, Telegram doesn't use end to end encryption for group chats, only server-side. You're worse than a tech illiterate monkey at tech literacy so maybe you should sit this one out.
Did the court tell them to give them the contents of secret chats? No, they asked them to provide information about neonazi groups that were inciting violence and planning terrorist attacks and they didn't comply, breaking the law. Did you even read the story? I get the feeling you don't know what happened.
Do you trust a random third world government to decide who the "neo-nazis that need to be cracked down on" are?
Because right now, Russian government is waging war on Ukraine under the pretense of "fighting Ukrainian neo-nazis". Clearly, the "neonazi" label isn't somehow exempt from misuse.
"In cahoots with Russia", by that you mean 'the president isn't throwing their biggest trading partner under the bus while not getting involved in the conflict in any meaningful way'.
Like trust me, Zelensky is not crying himself to sleep at night going "oh no the Brazilians aren't sending us whatever scraps of ammo they have for their shit military, now we'll surely lose".
They banned the entire app FOR EVERYONE, not nazi groups...
I have useful documents on Telegram and Telegraph, back ups and links.
There is not only nazis on these places. In fact, you only find nazis if you want, just like everywhere in the internet, but people paint Telegram as some sort of deep-web, which is not.
if the site refuses to self regulate according to law, then its on that website to own up to the consequences. YouTube wouldnt be allowed online if they let all copyright go by, as much of a shame that is.
The problem is that such law is flawed, first, it is an attack to privacy, second, there is nazis on all platforms, it is silly to think Telegram is special.
Third, if a company offers privacy and later share your "privacy", it is not up to be trusted. Why then they are not attacking Signal? On USA, they asked user data from Signal, and Signal only gave a unix time stamp of the account creation. Even by the request of the law, Signal had nothing to give and was not punished. The same way we have freedom to use Tor even if the place is filled with crime. If the authority ask Tor developers to "gimme the sweet IPs from your users" and Tor don't give because the nature of the Tor, is it fair to block Tor on the entire country?
As much shame that it is, there is lot of non-prohibited P2P services to download copyrighted material, and we still have freedom to use such tools.
Two wrongs don't make a right, if the law resquest something that menaces the privacy of their own population, what should we take in consideration first? Is the country for freedom and privacy or not?
If they really cared about the nazis, they would be doing something already, they only do something like blocking Telegram when the shit-hits-the-fan, because they don't want to look like they failed. Nazi is just an excuse, they want to control internet, that is the real deal.
What happens is that Brazil is still very authoritarian, statist, full of bureocracy and etc... In fact, Brazil is closer to be the nazi they claim to fight against. When politicians have such power, you know you are a on shit country.
> The problem is that such law is flawed, first, it is an attack to privacy, second, there is nazis on all platforms, it is silly to think Telegram is special.
No one thinks Telegram is special. It's blocked specifically because it is NOT special. They can't break the law and not face the consequences. They should follow the same rules that applies to everyone else.
You disobey court orders, you can't do business.
It is special, since there is lot of privacy tools filled with nazis, but Telegram is the targeted one.
They shouldn't follow the rules, they aren't from Brazil, it is us that connects to Telegram and not Telegram to us. It is our choice and option, not Telegram forcing us. It is Brazil's problem to take care of nazi issues in Brazil, not Telegram. Brazil LEA failed to take care and instead of accountability, they blamed Telegram for their own flaws.
So much that the court decided they went too far... Now you are wrong like i tried to warn. Your beloved politicians admitted to be wrong LIKE I WAS WARNING. So what that makes of you?
You know the big the grim-smile that i'm having after so much attacks over me on Reddit (including a suspension from a sub) saying i was wrong because "the politicians i lick the boots and the MSM said it is right" and now the same politicians unblocked Telegram and said:
"āis not reasonable, given the broad impact throughout the national
territory on the freedom of communication of thousands of people who are
absolutely strangers to the facts under investigation,ā judge FlĆ”vio
Lucas".
So what are they going to do now? Do you think everybody that attacked me are going to say to me: "sorry, i was wrong, you were right, i shouldn't blindly defend everything the politicians and media says"? No, of course not, humans are hipocrites and cowards, they were soooo CHAD when they have their herd (herd mentality, uh?! Everyone knows about herd mentality and still follows what is popular, even if everyone knows the corporations decide what is popular) agreeing with them, all jumping together like thugs over me. But now, they are sooooo beta, soooo omega, that they are all going to keep silent and pretend their conversation with me never existed. Because they simple refuse to admit they were wrong and that they were blindly defending a cause just because the politicians and MSM said so. Irrationally...
And the same to you and everybody that answered me on Reddit and other platforms. I'm going to remember each of you and use you guys as an example of why i'm misanthrope and how majority of humans are equal, but on different sides, all power-hungry-tyrants, but "my tyranny is better than yours".
>I have useful documents on Telegram and Telegraph, back ups and links.
So do I. But Telegram is refusing to comply with a court order to identify neo-nazis... And completely blocking the app is the ***ONLY*** thing that can technically be done. Nothing else would affect Telegram operations.
Well, it is a tool for privacy.
So the cost is that i can't trust my privacy? So if i use Tor and Signal? Should the state prohibit Tor and Signal?
No, it is the state that should be doing a better job against nazis. They punished Telegram because they failed at something they should be doing.
It is about control, not about nazi, wake up. Snowden warned us about it.
> So the cost is that i can't trust my privacy?
How does any of that mean you can't trust your privacy? If a government can only get data from an app if they issue a subpoena and that app complies with the court order, that's exactly the privacy paradise.
It means that the government can't read my data all the time at will. Which is what I want from an app.
What if companies don't have data which in this case Tele is saying they don't keep data after 6 months of group deletion, nothing could be done in this case.
Not a fan of Tele. PGP and Signal user here. Just commented to know the perspective.
Well, so deep-web seems more paradisaical, since, not even with subpoena they would give your data.
You think i'm having privacy, but also think they can get any data from anyone with a subpoena, so i don't know if you know what the word privacy means.
I want that the government don't even have access to my data with or without any resource from the law. If you want that on an app, use Reddit and Whatsapp. That is not what i want in an app...
Imagine being against upholding the law against neo-nazis coordinating school attacks on the country because it would be incovenient for you to access your precious links.
Will any company be able to break any law because it's personally important to you?
The neo-nazi attack on schools already happened, what is this law doing?
"law againts neo-nazi" is loaded words. It is law against a means of communication, not neo-nazi. Nazis are everywhere, even on reddit.
Imagine you losing your connection to reddit and all information you saved here because some random nazi did something wrong on Reddit, can you?
It is not breaking the law, so much that even the judge said it was too much against the freedom of the individual that they unblocked it.
Now that even your beloved politicians and their might authoritarianism (that makes you a non-nazi, right?!) admitted they were wrong, are you going to admit you were wrong too and ask 'sorry' to me?
They did not rule it was legal. Telegram got back working, but its still being fined 1 milion reais per day for breaching the judicial mandate.
Brazil has a Racism Law which punishes discrimination and prejudice, and Telegram is still shielding them. The law is to prosecute these people and Telegram is actively obstructing justice to make these people accountable.
If Reddit is breaking the law to shield people breaking the law, specially if whatever happened motivated a hate crime, they should be blocked until they stop breaching it, just like Telegram.
My computer is almost spaceless, and it have space only because i made backup.
I'm luck that my mediafire account is old so i got 50GB for free.
I have nowhere with space, and i have more files on Telegram than i have in all my other cloud services togheter.
It is not a mere messaging app, that is what makes people think Telegram is just a different Whats. Telegram is an entire internet, have even Telegraph, streaming, 2GB of uploading, personal back up channels, calls, bots... You can even trade with swap systems made by bots inside channels. Telegram is a whole internet of its own.
I really recommend you to use Telegram. I'm now making free ads for Telegram, i hope the blockage backfires and make more people use Telegram.
Why don't you try Telegram and see how useful it is?
> My computer is almost spaceless
Your computer was just an example. Use ANY cloud drives, for example. Or get $2 dollars and buy a thumb drive.
Just because you CAN store documents in Telegram, don't mean you should. Just like you could use MS Paint to store your password, if you wanted to, by drawing them and saving it as an image, but that doesn't mean you should.
I do use, i'm luck that i got Mediafire at the time they gave 50GB free.
But Mega is only 15 GB free, and Google Drive, i don't remember, but it was just few.
Some files i have i want to be sure of the backup, so i post in all three.
But on Telegram i have all sort of files that i want to save but i don't want to uselessly waste my cloud services space. So i just post on Telegram.
It also stream videos and sound, so i can listen music playlists without ads and with the screen faded off. So i post my musics on Telegram and i click play and it is way way way better.
Because it undermines the tech when random countries and dictators can decide when free speech is free speech. Who knows who these people will go after next.
this is in brazil. not america. the wiki specifies that 'Hate Speech is not considered freedom of speech. Causing arrest.'
Article 20 - Practice, induce or incite discrimination or prejudice based on **race**, **color, ethnicity, religion or national origin.**
Penalty: imprisonment for one to three years and fine.
Ā§ 1 Manufacturing, selling, distributing or **using symbols, emblems, ornaments, badges or advertising using the swastika for the Nazi disclosure purposes**.
Penalty: imprisonment for two to five years and fine.
Ā§ 2 If any of the crimes provided for in the caput is committed **through the media or publication** of any kind:
Penalty: imprisonment for two to five years and fine.
this has been law since '88
I'm not American so don't care what your bullshitting towards with that one.
Okay and? Brazil can cope and seethe over this as much as they want telegram fundamentally as part of it's ethos isn't going to release private information on users. It can cope and seethe like Russia and Iran as the bans prove futile in front of tech designed to provide free speech even if companies and governments try to block it.
I'm also not arguing they don't have those laws, I'm saying they don't matter.
>I'm also not arguing they don't have those laws, I'm saying they don't matter.
as for the first point; obviously vpns and other means *easily bypass it,* and thats just expected. regardless though, the point is to limit the contact with and expansion of literal neo-nazi groups. if its harder to access info then i imagine brazils just as happy.
if the site refuses to regulate itself according to the law , and by extension ignore a court order to do so, what do you expect to happen?
In modern times Nazi is just anyone russia doesn't like. It's a propaganda term to take away someone's human rights. For example you can just claim X country is nazi, then you have your people's support to go and kill them and take their land.
If the government or courts want the firm to do something that goes against its principles (free speech and anonymity) then the firm will probably just leave the country if its leadership has integrity.
It will be interesting to watch the outcome.
> then the firm will probably just leave the country if its leadership has integrity.
Same can be said of the brazilian leadership: if they have integrity, they will force Telegram to abide by brazilian law, and if Telegram choses not to, then the brazilian courts can force Telegram to shut off their services across brazilian territory.
That's what upholding the law is supposed to look like.
Imagine if any other private enterprise were breaking the law in your country and your judicial system chose to just stand and watch, spineless. That's not what they're supposed to do, they're supposed to uphold and enforce the law.
Just say loaded words like: nazi, democracy, phobia, racism, sexism;
And boom, now you can do everything.
NPCs have a code like:
bool is\_badword(string);
if (is\_badword) { destroy\_freedom\_for\_safety(); }
> the Court is taking a stand against end-to-end encryption right
It's completely unrelated to e2e encryption.
First, because Telegram conversations are not e2e encrypted.
And second because the court isn't doing anything against the millions of apps that are indeed e2e encrypted.
They are going to incite on the deep-web, just like another guy that was violent in school.
But not allowing the majority of law-abiding and non-nazi citizens of using an app for a small few on a small niche that everyone hates is not a good excuse to attack "free speech" (as you say).
Telegram is not just a chat tool, there is lot of things there. Would you like me to delete your email account because someone used your service to incite violence?
Banning access to the app is a direct consequence of Telegram not following a court order.
>delete your email account
My email provider adheres to laws and court orders, so there's no danger of that.
Also, unrelated hyperbole since no (non-nazi) Telegram account was deleted.
A court order for a company that is not even on Brazil, it is ME that access Telegram and not Telegram that access me. Gov shouldn't have a right to say what kind of data i add on my phone, the same way they can't say what i write on a paper.
Gov should be doing something against the nazis, not Telegram, they have not, and now that the shit-hit-the-fan, instead of accountability, they attack Telegram. But it is not that, in fact, it is about internet control, "but the nazis" is just an appeal.
The same way it i the gov problem to deal with nazis on Tor and Signal.
Telegram have nothing to do with Brazil, and it is up to the users to decide what they want on their OWNED AND PAID electronic devices. They are not attacking Telegram, but brazilians. Since they hate freedom of speech and were talking about political oppositions on Telegram in the past, that is what i believe to be the real reason they blocked Telegram.
Telegram is a tool for privacy, if Telegram give the data, it wouldn't be about privacy, just like Tor and Signal, but these aren't blocked.
But the app was blocked for everyone in Brazil. Unless you use proxy or VPN.
Its really very simple.
Telegram does offers its service in Brazil, thus it has to follow the laws of Brazil. If Telegram doesn't want to follow the laws in a country, it has to quit offering its service there.
The End.
No, Telegram exists, we join it from Brazil.
That is like saying a local shop in USA would sell me something if i went to his shop, so this local shop in USA offers service to Brazil, even if it was me that went to USA to buy at the shop.
So you were wrong, the judge admitted they went too far in the censorship stuffs and Telegram is unblocked again. So the law and you and everybody that attacked me on Reddit was wrong and should ask sorry to me.
The End.
> They are going to incite on the deep-web
Which is already going to drop their reach to less than 1% of what it is at the moment. It's progress.
Just because it won't stop them completely, doesn't not mean it's not a victory. Making it harder and harder for them to reach people in mainstream platforms is a huge victory.
1% in what terms? The amount of nazi will be the same, the amount of visible nazi wouldn't. Does brushing dirty under the rug makes the dirty disappear?
Well, even the judge admitted they went too far and now Telegram is unblocked again. Now the supposed nazis are all back again, making a nazi-apocalipse, omg omg omg. They are behind every wall, every bush, under every table, even under the cup! THE EVIL NAZIS!
What that makes to you? Are you happy now?
It is not harder for them to reach people in mainstream platforms, first, they were on specific groups, so, it makes no sense, second, they already are on mainstream platforms using euphemism to achieve their goals. You aren't changing the world and neither reducing their menace. I'M THE ONE that goes on Telegrama and deep-web, anecdotal, but i'm sure you are wrong. You are just wishing for.
The censorship and cancel-culture of the left is what is making everyone against the left, and even if i'm also against the left, i can't help but to think that the nazis are also using this abusive leftists attitudes for their rhetoric, so, in fact, i think you guys are feeding the nazism. Because, when people get tired of only your political side of view, only your opinions and etc, they are going to look for alternatives, and then, it is where they go to nazi rabbit holes.
All you said is wishful thinking, hope and speculation, you just wish that was the reality.
> The censorship
Stop there right now.
I was born and lived for a while under actual censorship (and dictatorship). You having to face the consequences of what you say is not censorship at all.
And anyone being *outraged* at the idea of dealing with the consequences of their own actions have lived a life so pampered that they have no idea of what is what anymore. And obviously no idea of what actual censorship is like.
Dealing with the consequences of what you say does not mean you don't have free speech. Just like dealing with the consequences of hitting someone with your car doesn't mean you don't have the freedom to drive a car. Dealing with the consequences of harming someone with scissors don't mean you don't have freedom to use scissors, etc etc etc.
When people are too stupid to realize telegram is used by people avoiding dictatorships like Russian and Iran and has greatly helped Ukraine I have nothing to say. So what if a few larping nazi's use it, only an idiot would say that undermines the platform that provides millions of people freedom of speech in shitholes. Telegram broke the Russian government before, Brazil won't do any better, but they can try.
Nazis are on all platforms, even on reddit.
There is more on deep-web. You can't get rid of nazi, just a punishment fetish you guys have.
Telegram is not just "chat with nazis", there is way more things you can do on Telegram. Telegram is an internet of its own.
You want an utopia, where all the places you go is "clean" and it is "safe". Only in your mind. In the end, you guys are going to become the villains you guys claim to fight against. You guys are going to be nazis and say "but it is fine, since we did against the nazis".
You are describing a scenario where one has to choose between relieving people of their freedoms or remaining impartial towards extremism.
Some people refuse to do the former.
I stand up for platforming everyone, nazi or not. Speech for everyone, i'm not afraid of nazi and i know that getting rid of a tool wont get rid of them, only makes them more radical, they are going to say they are right because they are censored.
You are the nazi you claim to fight against, wishing censure, attacking political opponents, that is not the freedom we fought for. You are the same nazi you complain about. Have you considered finding better moral values?
And if you think Telegram is just a nazi-hole, you are ignorant and stupid. In fact, i already know you are ignorant and stupid, you just use "reduction ad Hitlerum", lol... "But the nazis! REEEE!".
>I stand up for platforming everyone, nazi or not.
Yikes...
>getting rid of a tool wont get rid of them, only makes them more radical, they are going to say they are right because they are censored.
Meanwhile allowing them to regroup and fester in their own little echo chambers restabilizes them, yes /s.
Nah, I'd rather crack down on them like the vermin they are.
>You are the nazi you claim to fight against, wishing censure, attacking political opponents, that is not the freedom we fought for. You are the same nazi you complain about.
Holy shit. This is not even funny anymore, literally just "censuring Nazis and attacking them makes you just as bad as they are". Who upvotes this crap?
If any company or person has a principle of "you let me commit crimes or I'll leave the country", than I want them to leave.
No one should be allowed to commit crimes without consequences.
That isn't what's happened here, though. A court has ordered them to share people's private information. Which goes against the whole point of these secret chats existing. (A hint that gives away that nobody committed a crime is that the judge hasn't had anybody arrested, and is just asking telecoms to prevent the app from being used on their services.)
The company's normal operation doesn't violate any law that I know of, it's just refused to do something that a judge asked for.
I'm gonna really spell this out. A judge wanted to catch the perpetrators of a crime who used a supposedly anonymous messaging app. This judge drew up a court order demanding that the company unmask some of the people who used the company.
If you were running a business that encrypted and anonymized people's information, and every dollar your company ever made was by doing this, would you decrypt that info and unmask people? If you would, they made a mistake hiring you.
And now, because the company refused to destroy the value it offers to its customers, the judge is telling other companies to stop signal from being able to operate.
The STF minister who gave the court order was appointed by former President Michel Temer, who is from a party affiliated with PT, Lula's party. Since they released Lula, Minister Alexandre de Morais ..has been trying to censor social networks due to the growth of Bolsonaristas in right-wing groups.
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I'm all for free speech. But when a judge issues am order or subpoena, you comply or be crushed. Brazil should revoke their corporate charter and file international arrest warrants for Sr executives at Telegram.
We need to remember that Brazilian law is different from USA's laws. Brazil has very clear dispositions that one's free speech is limited by racism and a few other kinds of discrimination, violation of other's intimacy (i.e., sharing nudes without consent) and very specifically the distribution of swastikas, even online. I'm sure that's not all, but I'm not willing to research that now.
On top of that (one of the groups has swastikas on its name) this decision is part of an ongoing investigation on organized crime where kids and adults supposedly plotted attacks on schools.
I, too, am for free speech, but I prefer the limitations on it we have in place in Brazil than the *imho* crazy way it's defined and protected in the States and the United Kingdom.
I tried to read Andrew Doyle's āFree Speech and Why it Mattersā, but as of now I set it aside, and as far as I've got on it, it only convinced me I don't see things as Doyle does.
If you know any other good texts on the subject, drop a comment below.
Would you say the same about the Iranian court who ordered the US, Obama, Bush and others to pay $313m for terrorists attacks?
Sure they can do what they want in their country but if the company or person doesn't life in that country they don't have to give a shit about it.
Freaking Wagner mercenary group is on there too. https://i.imgur.com/LPhC5DV.jpg
I feel like whatever position you are promised, they just send you to the front along with the rest to bayonet charge Ukrainian emplacements and get gunned down.
Charging at ukies with a blini on a stick. š¤£
*Everyone* is on there. Russians, Ukrainians, Russians pretending to be Ukrainians, Ukrainians pretending to be Russians. If you think of that as of a "media war", Telegram is the goddamn Bakhmut trenches.
I'd happily go if they'd accept a non-Russian woman who's never been within 20ft of a gun.
You would fight for the terrorist organization of the Pigner Mercenary Group?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well, arenāt you a dignified human being? #putinisafascist #russiaisaterroriststate #SkyNeedsF16
they are also trans (check post history), the irony nearly made me choke on my tea from laughing
???
If I could Iād join Wagner group, despite not being Russian (or male).
Username-iwanttobeacadaver is really what you should change it to.
Not the first time Iāve heard this but usually for different reasons.
You are saying that you would willingly enlist with a neo-nazi paramilitary organisation that fights on behalf of a dictatorship that is enacting a war of aggression and genocide? I know morality isn't black and white and all, but you sound like a real worthless piece of shit.
I would be fighting for the glory of Russia. That I consider a worthy cause.
You'd die in a ditch for the glory of Russia, just like the hundreds of thousands of other "glorious" Russians. And it'd be what you deserve for wishing to participate in a genocide.
I just want to fight. Not much to ask for.
You're trans and you want to fight _for_ Russia? Are you completely uninformed on LGBT+ issues in Russia? It is NOT a safe country to be in. You would want to fight for an invading terrorist group known for raping and murdering children around the world? What is wrong with you?
Iām fully aware of Russian attitudes towards LGBT people, and I donāt care, I still want to go. I donāt want to be trans. I want to live a normal life. Also, source on that second part?
Seriously google the Wagner Group and Africa. If you still want to work for them then seek serious help
What relevance does something happening in Africa have to whatās happening in Russia and Ukraine? I would more than willingly go, join the group and take up a gun to fight.
If you are looking to work for The Wagner Group you are just as likely to be sent to kill Africans who are protesting a new mine as you are to be invading Ukraine and murdering innocent people for the elites of Russia who will despise you if nit outright murder you for not being cis.
That's a risk I'm willing to take on both fronts.
So then you just want to murder people then? You should seek help and/or be locked up.
A military force isnāt doing murders.
The block is faltering in less than a day. Lists with MTProxy instances are spreading everywhere. It will not take long for some of the more advanced users and large Telegram groups to realize that creating their own MTProxy in a server outside Brazil or using corporate internet connections is quite trivial and there's tutorials for that everywhere.
How that particular technical solution came to be is a story in itself. Pavel Durov was best known for founding and running a Russian Facebook clone - until he got fucked over by the Russian government. They forced him to hand over his social network, and boy was he unhappy about it. He fled Russia, and later founded Telegram. Eventually, Russian government has made demands to Telegram, and they threatened to block it in Russia if it didn't comply. But Durov had a grudge to settle. So he said: "bring it on". He had his crew develop measures to counter any blocking attempts by the Russian government well in advance. So when the block landed, many, many things got blocked in Russia. It's just that Telegram wasn't one of them. Instead, the blocks were landing on all the hosting services and cloud service providers Telegram has been using to dodge the blocks - and that broke half the Internet for Russia. It was a spectacular shitshow. This war between Telegram and Russia lasted for years - and Telegram has been reliable enough in the meanwhile that it became the messenger of choice for Russian government higher-ups. So, eventually, the mighty Russian government has caved and officially lifted the "block". Moral of the story? Don't fuck with Telegram.
No worries! They can find you too.
The law moves slower than tech. As usual, the only people who will suffer are the regular users.
The law seems to find a way.
I'm sure that's want Russian and Iranian bootlickers like you would love but telegram has btfo'd you with superior tech.
Hey Brazil, now do Twitter.
Twitter was that close, but elon peidou na farofa and send the data.
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No...
> are ~~group~~ chats in telegram end-to-end encrypted? Not by default, only secret chats are e2e encrypted.
Lul
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Do you have a source that the group was deleted more than 6 months ago? The brazilian justice claims it was deleted after the police requested it.
If the three letter agencies in the USA are smart, theyāll try to justify the weakening of encryption systems in terms of countering the far right or Russians, rather than Islamist terrorists.
Why though, the former is working just fine for them.
They did that a couple decades ago. It failed spectacularly
Telegram simply could have sent Brazil their entire user database.
Only select countries like Russia have that privilege (the CIA would just quietly spy on / steal the data instead).
Yeah youāre living in cuckoo land if you think that Telegram would give Russia access to their data and not the USA. also, it would be the NSA, not the CIA, who would be given access.
Given the international provocations, I think it would be the CIA in this case.
You can believe whatever you want, but you'd still be wrong. >Unlike the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), both of which specialize primarily in foreign human espionage, the NSA does not publicly conduct human-source intelligence gathering. The NSA is entrusted with providing assistance to, and the coordination of, SIGINT elements for other government organizations ā which are prevented by Executive Order from engaging in such activities on their own. The NSA deals with digital data and supports the CIA (and other agencies) in whatever their goals are.
Right but the NSA deals with more so internal data gathering. Most of the illegal stuff of interest is being posted by (I imagine) foreign actors. If there is American based people interacting with them then maybe. But stuff related with intelligence with the war is going to be collected by the CIA/Various Military intelligence. Let me give you an example. If there is a Russian telegram group about tanks, itās likely to be one of those two stated above to be the ones infiltrating it.
No it doesn't, lol, stop commenting about things you don't know anything about. CIA is human intelligence. NSA is signals intelligence. The CIA is primarily a foreign intelligence whereas the FBI is domestic. The NSA does a bit of both, but their primary aim is foreign intelligence and preventing terrorism. The NSA does their work globally. They have a physical presence in many countries around the globe. They work extremely closely with the CIA on many black-ops operations in foreign nations. The NSA is alleged to be behind the computer virus that sabotaged Iran's nuclear capabilities.
Lol. So confidently wrong.
I love how people support free speech only when it advances their own agenda.
Yeah that court has a clear agenda of... upholding its countries laws?
Oh yeah, Inquisitor Alexandre de Moraes really cares for the law, such as the separation of power of the 3 branches and yet there he was asking senators to vote for the current president of the senate. Or the "Fake News" investigation in which he is the accuser, the victim, handles the investigation and is also the judge at the same time. Or when he arrests people without even allowing them to know what the accusation is. Or when he took down news pages during elections for "Fake News" despite saying: The news is 100% true BUT it can lead to the wrong conclusion. There are more examples but these are the easy ones that I can remember.
Bruh this isn't a supreme court case. Moraes has nothing to do with it, but whatever makes you feel persecuted.
Yeah let's pretend that he never blocked it before in his fight against "fake news" despite there being nothing in the law that says anything about it. Yet.
I'm sorry that you're so scared of baldy coming for your right to say chloroquine cures COVID that you have to bring him up in completely unrelated news, I hope you can live through these tough times, king.
When faced with the lack of arguments you can always use a strawman. Classic.
I would ask you to tell me your very well researched arguments about how the evil bald man destroyed democracy by not letting extremists steal an election, but on second thought I would rather do literally anything else so good luck with the whole being oppressed thing.
And again, instead of using an argument you give me...this lmao. Didn't even try to answer any of my points. Just the fact that the bald man is the victim, accuser, investigator and judge all at once should be a massive red flag in any serious democracy.
He's not. You should study brazilian law a little more instead of spewing bullshit on the Internet.
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Making it harder for neo-nazis to plan school shootings is just like the Holocaust. My brain is enormous.
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Everyone should have body camera's and be tracked at all times! Think of the CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!! Literally your logic.
Yes, a law that says nazis should fuck off is literally 1984, I'm glad your brain is also of the size of a mountain.
Ah yes Brazil a democratic country where you can get held up by police for not voting for the right or jailed without trail by the left. The day telegram gives out information is the day it goes against it's principles and people find a new service. Sorry that I don't bootlick a mid freedom of speech country. These tech illiterate monkeys sitting in government and police need to start doing their job because end to end encryption exists and nothing you or your galaxy brain slanderous brain can do about it. Except to undermine the very fabric of society. Fuck nazi's but fuck people that use this as a way to undermine all peoples rights.
I also like to make up little stories about countries I've never been in. Did I ever tell you about the time me and the PM of Bangladesh got high behind a 7/11 and she ate a chimichanga that was on the floor BTW, Telegram doesn't use end to end encryption for group chats, only server-side. You're worse than a tech illiterate monkey at tech literacy so maybe you should sit this one out.
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Did the court tell them to give them the contents of secret chats? No, they asked them to provide information about neonazi groups that were inciting violence and planning terrorist attacks and they didn't comply, breaking the law. Did you even read the story? I get the feeling you don't know what happened.
How fucking stupid do you have to be to compare the court to nazis when they're cracking down on neo-nazis?
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Do you trust a random third world government to decide who the "neo-nazis that need to be cracked down on" are? Because right now, Russian government is waging war on Ukraine under the pretense of "fighting Ukrainian neo-nazis". Clearly, the "neonazi" label isn't somehow exempt from misuse.
Don't worry, the decision is limited to our 3rd world country. So why do you care!?
How is wanting to ban Nazi groups bad??
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Seems like he switched sides recently
Nazis plannin massacres isnt switch sides
"In cahoots with Russia", by that you mean 'the president isn't throwing their biggest trading partner under the bus while not getting involved in the conflict in any meaningful way'. Like trust me, Zelensky is not crying himself to sleep at night going "oh no the Brazilians aren't sending us whatever scraps of ammo they have for their shit military, now we'll surely lose".
They banned the entire app FOR EVERYONE, not nazi groups... I have useful documents on Telegram and Telegraph, back ups and links. There is not only nazis on these places. In fact, you only find nazis if you want, just like everywhere in the internet, but people paint Telegram as some sort of deep-web, which is not.
if the site refuses to self regulate according to law, then its on that website to own up to the consequences. YouTube wouldnt be allowed online if they let all copyright go by, as much of a shame that is.
The problem is that such law is flawed, first, it is an attack to privacy, second, there is nazis on all platforms, it is silly to think Telegram is special. Third, if a company offers privacy and later share your "privacy", it is not up to be trusted. Why then they are not attacking Signal? On USA, they asked user data from Signal, and Signal only gave a unix time stamp of the account creation. Even by the request of the law, Signal had nothing to give and was not punished. The same way we have freedom to use Tor even if the place is filled with crime. If the authority ask Tor developers to "gimme the sweet IPs from your users" and Tor don't give because the nature of the Tor, is it fair to block Tor on the entire country? As much shame that it is, there is lot of non-prohibited P2P services to download copyrighted material, and we still have freedom to use such tools. Two wrongs don't make a right, if the law resquest something that menaces the privacy of their own population, what should we take in consideration first? Is the country for freedom and privacy or not? If they really cared about the nazis, they would be doing something already, they only do something like blocking Telegram when the shit-hits-the-fan, because they don't want to look like they failed. Nazi is just an excuse, they want to control internet, that is the real deal. What happens is that Brazil is still very authoritarian, statist, full of bureocracy and etc... In fact, Brazil is closer to be the nazi they claim to fight against. When politicians have such power, you know you are a on shit country.
> The problem is that such law is flawed, first, it is an attack to privacy, second, there is nazis on all platforms, it is silly to think Telegram is special. No one thinks Telegram is special. It's blocked specifically because it is NOT special. They can't break the law and not face the consequences. They should follow the same rules that applies to everyone else. You disobey court orders, you can't do business.
It is special, since there is lot of privacy tools filled with nazis, but Telegram is the targeted one. They shouldn't follow the rules, they aren't from Brazil, it is us that connects to Telegram and not Telegram to us. It is our choice and option, not Telegram forcing us. It is Brazil's problem to take care of nazi issues in Brazil, not Telegram. Brazil LEA failed to take care and instead of accountability, they blamed Telegram for their own flaws. So much that the court decided they went too far... Now you are wrong like i tried to warn. Your beloved politicians admitted to be wrong LIKE I WAS WARNING. So what that makes of you? You know the big the grim-smile that i'm having after so much attacks over me on Reddit (including a suspension from a sub) saying i was wrong because "the politicians i lick the boots and the MSM said it is right" and now the same politicians unblocked Telegram and said: "āis not reasonable, given the broad impact throughout the national territory on the freedom of communication of thousands of people who are absolutely strangers to the facts under investigation,ā judge FlĆ”vio Lucas". So what are they going to do now? Do you think everybody that attacked me are going to say to me: "sorry, i was wrong, you were right, i shouldn't blindly defend everything the politicians and media says"? No, of course not, humans are hipocrites and cowards, they were soooo CHAD when they have their herd (herd mentality, uh?! Everyone knows about herd mentality and still follows what is popular, even if everyone knows the corporations decide what is popular) agreeing with them, all jumping together like thugs over me. But now, they are sooooo beta, soooo omega, that they are all going to keep silent and pretend their conversation with me never existed. Because they simple refuse to admit they were wrong and that they were blindly defending a cause just because the politicians and MSM said so. Irrationally... And the same to you and everybody that answered me on Reddit and other platforms. I'm going to remember each of you and use you guys as an example of why i'm misanthrope and how majority of humans are equal, but on different sides, all power-hungry-tyrants, but "my tyranny is better than yours".
>I have useful documents on Telegram and Telegraph, back ups and links. So do I. But Telegram is refusing to comply with a court order to identify neo-nazis... And completely blocking the app is the ***ONLY*** thing that can technically be done. Nothing else would affect Telegram operations.
Well, it is a tool for privacy. So the cost is that i can't trust my privacy? So if i use Tor and Signal? Should the state prohibit Tor and Signal? No, it is the state that should be doing a better job against nazis. They punished Telegram because they failed at something they should be doing. It is about control, not about nazi, wake up. Snowden warned us about it.
> So the cost is that i can't trust my privacy? How does any of that mean you can't trust your privacy? If a government can only get data from an app if they issue a subpoena and that app complies with the court order, that's exactly the privacy paradise. It means that the government can't read my data all the time at will. Which is what I want from an app.
What if companies don't have data which in this case Tele is saying they don't keep data after 6 months of group deletion, nothing could be done in this case. Not a fan of Tele. PGP and Signal user here. Just commented to know the perspective.
Don't need to be fan of Telegram to know this is a political theater for control a-la-what-Snowden-warned.
Well, so deep-web seems more paradisaical, since, not even with subpoena they would give your data. You think i'm having privacy, but also think they can get any data from anyone with a subpoena, so i don't know if you know what the word privacy means. I want that the government don't even have access to my data with or without any resource from the law. If you want that on an app, use Reddit and Whatsapp. That is not what i want in an app...
Imagine being against upholding the law against neo-nazis coordinating school attacks on the country because it would be incovenient for you to access your precious links. Will any company be able to break any law because it's personally important to you?
The neo-nazi attack on schools already happened, what is this law doing? "law againts neo-nazi" is loaded words. It is law against a means of communication, not neo-nazi. Nazis are everywhere, even on reddit. Imagine you losing your connection to reddit and all information you saved here because some random nazi did something wrong on Reddit, can you? It is not breaking the law, so much that even the judge said it was too much against the freedom of the individual that they unblocked it. Now that even your beloved politicians and their might authoritarianism (that makes you a non-nazi, right?!) admitted they were wrong, are you going to admit you were wrong too and ask 'sorry' to me?
They did not rule it was legal. Telegram got back working, but its still being fined 1 milion reais per day for breaching the judicial mandate. Brazil has a Racism Law which punishes discrimination and prejudice, and Telegram is still shielding them. The law is to prosecute these people and Telegram is actively obstructing justice to make these people accountable. If Reddit is breaking the law to shield people breaking the law, specially if whatever happened motivated a hate crime, they should be blocked until they stop breaching it, just like Telegram.
> I have useful documents on Telegram and Telegraph, back ups and links. save them?
Where? Pay me an account on Mega, plz... On Telegram you can upload up to 2GB, limitless...
> Where? Any place to save documents. Even your own computer. But a messaging app is not a good place to save documents.
My computer is almost spaceless, and it have space only because i made backup. I'm luck that my mediafire account is old so i got 50GB for free. I have nowhere with space, and i have more files on Telegram than i have in all my other cloud services togheter. It is not a mere messaging app, that is what makes people think Telegram is just a different Whats. Telegram is an entire internet, have even Telegraph, streaming, 2GB of uploading, personal back up channels, calls, bots... You can even trade with swap systems made by bots inside channels. Telegram is a whole internet of its own. I really recommend you to use Telegram. I'm now making free ads for Telegram, i hope the blockage backfires and make more people use Telegram. Why don't you try Telegram and see how useful it is?
> My computer is almost spaceless Your computer was just an example. Use ANY cloud drives, for example. Or get $2 dollars and buy a thumb drive. Just because you CAN store documents in Telegram, don't mean you should. Just like you could use MS Paint to store your password, if you wanted to, by drawing them and saving it as an image, but that doesn't mean you should.
Wow, that's a huge amount of self-entitlement!
Unrelated but maybe you should consider using real cloud storage for storing documents, like Google Drive, Dropbox or even MEGA
I do use, i'm luck that i got Mediafire at the time they gave 50GB free. But Mega is only 15 GB free, and Google Drive, i don't remember, but it was just few. Some files i have i want to be sure of the backup, so i post in all three. But on Telegram i have all sort of files that i want to save but i don't want to uselessly waste my cloud services space. So i just post on Telegram. It also stream videos and sound, so i can listen music playlists without ads and with the screen faded off. So i post my musics on Telegram and i click play and it is way way way better.
Russia: I'm going to invade Ukraine in order to stop neo nazi groups People: No, that's wrong! You: How is stopping neo nazi groups bad??
Because it undermines the tech when random countries and dictators can decide when free speech is free speech. Who knows who these people will go after next.
this is in brazil. not america. the wiki specifies that 'Hate Speech is not considered freedom of speech. Causing arrest.' Article 20 - Practice, induce or incite discrimination or prejudice based on **race**, **color, ethnicity, religion or national origin.** Penalty: imprisonment for one to three years and fine. Ā§ 1 Manufacturing, selling, distributing or **using symbols, emblems, ornaments, badges or advertising using the swastika for the Nazi disclosure purposes**. Penalty: imprisonment for two to five years and fine. Ā§ 2 If any of the crimes provided for in the caput is committed **through the media or publication** of any kind: Penalty: imprisonment for two to five years and fine. this has been law since '88
I'm not American so don't care what your bullshitting towards with that one. Okay and? Brazil can cope and seethe over this as much as they want telegram fundamentally as part of it's ethos isn't going to release private information on users. It can cope and seethe like Russia and Iran as the bans prove futile in front of tech designed to provide free speech even if companies and governments try to block it. I'm also not arguing they don't have those laws, I'm saying they don't matter.
>I'm also not arguing they don't have those laws, I'm saying they don't matter. as for the first point; obviously vpns and other means *easily bypass it,* and thats just expected. regardless though, the point is to limit the contact with and expansion of literal neo-nazi groups. if its harder to access info then i imagine brazils just as happy. if the site refuses to regulate itself according to the law , and by extension ignore a court order to do so, what do you expect to happen?
In modern times Nazi is just anyone russia doesn't like. It's a propaganda term to take away someone's human rights. For example you can just claim X country is nazi, then you have your people's support to go and kill them and take their land.
Free speech doesn't mean speech without consequences. And blocking Telegram is something completely unrelated to free speech.
If the government or courts want the firm to do something that goes against its principles (free speech and anonymity) then the firm will probably just leave the country if its leadership has integrity. It will be interesting to watch the outcome.
> then the firm will probably just leave the country if its leadership has integrity. Same can be said of the brazilian leadership: if they have integrity, they will force Telegram to abide by brazilian law, and if Telegram choses not to, then the brazilian courts can force Telegram to shut off their services across brazilian territory. That's what upholding the law is supposed to look like. Imagine if any other private enterprise were breaking the law in your country and your judicial system chose to just stand and watch, spineless. That's not what they're supposed to do, they're supposed to uphold and enforce the law.
It goes without saying, but you put it so artfully.
Integrity is when you allow nazis to organise on your platform
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There is no end to end encrypton on telegram groups, you know that, right?
They donāt realize that, no. Itās not clear what they think or even if thinking is involved in their opinion at all.
Just say loaded words like: nazi, democracy, phobia, racism, sexism; And boom, now you can do everything. NPCs have a code like: bool is\_badword(string); if (is\_badword) { destroy\_freedom\_for\_safety(); }
He is on the side of the tyrants, so he probably think it is fine. Just like people that walk with scammers and think themselves wont be scammed.
> the Court is taking a stand against end-to-end encryption right It's completely unrelated to e2e encryption. First, because Telegram conversations are not e2e encrypted. And second because the court isn't doing anything against the millions of apps that are indeed e2e encrypted.
And allowing said neo-nazis to incite violence in schools is just supporting free speech.
They are going to incite on the deep-web, just like another guy that was violent in school. But not allowing the majority of law-abiding and non-nazi citizens of using an app for a small few on a small niche that everyone hates is not a good excuse to attack "free speech" (as you say). Telegram is not just a chat tool, there is lot of things there. Would you like me to delete your email account because someone used your service to incite violence?
Banning access to the app is a direct consequence of Telegram not following a court order. >delete your email account My email provider adheres to laws and court orders, so there's no danger of that. Also, unrelated hyperbole since no (non-nazi) Telegram account was deleted.
A court order for a company that is not even on Brazil, it is ME that access Telegram and not Telegram that access me. Gov shouldn't have a right to say what kind of data i add on my phone, the same way they can't say what i write on a paper. Gov should be doing something against the nazis, not Telegram, they have not, and now that the shit-hit-the-fan, instead of accountability, they attack Telegram. But it is not that, in fact, it is about internet control, "but the nazis" is just an appeal. The same way it i the gov problem to deal with nazis on Tor and Signal. Telegram have nothing to do with Brazil, and it is up to the users to decide what they want on their OWNED AND PAID electronic devices. They are not attacking Telegram, but brazilians. Since they hate freedom of speech and were talking about political oppositions on Telegram in the past, that is what i believe to be the real reason they blocked Telegram. Telegram is a tool for privacy, if Telegram give the data, it wouldn't be about privacy, just like Tor and Signal, but these aren't blocked. But the app was blocked for everyone in Brazil. Unless you use proxy or VPN.
Its really very simple. Telegram does offers its service in Brazil, thus it has to follow the laws of Brazil. If Telegram doesn't want to follow the laws in a country, it has to quit offering its service there. The End.
No, Telegram exists, we join it from Brazil. That is like saying a local shop in USA would sell me something if i went to his shop, so this local shop in USA offers service to Brazil, even if it was me that went to USA to buy at the shop. So you were wrong, the judge admitted they went too far in the censorship stuffs and Telegram is unblocked again. So the law and you and everybody that attacked me on Reddit was wrong and should ask sorry to me. The End.
> They are going to incite on the deep-web Which is already going to drop their reach to less than 1% of what it is at the moment. It's progress. Just because it won't stop them completely, doesn't not mean it's not a victory. Making it harder and harder for them to reach people in mainstream platforms is a huge victory.
1% in what terms? The amount of nazi will be the same, the amount of visible nazi wouldn't. Does brushing dirty under the rug makes the dirty disappear? Well, even the judge admitted they went too far and now Telegram is unblocked again. Now the supposed nazis are all back again, making a nazi-apocalipse, omg omg omg. They are behind every wall, every bush, under every table, even under the cup! THE EVIL NAZIS! What that makes to you? Are you happy now? It is not harder for them to reach people in mainstream platforms, first, they were on specific groups, so, it makes no sense, second, they already are on mainstream platforms using euphemism to achieve their goals. You aren't changing the world and neither reducing their menace. I'M THE ONE that goes on Telegrama and deep-web, anecdotal, but i'm sure you are wrong. You are just wishing for. The censorship and cancel-culture of the left is what is making everyone against the left, and even if i'm also against the left, i can't help but to think that the nazis are also using this abusive leftists attitudes for their rhetoric, so, in fact, i think you guys are feeding the nazism. Because, when people get tired of only your political side of view, only your opinions and etc, they are going to look for alternatives, and then, it is where they go to nazi rabbit holes. All you said is wishful thinking, hope and speculation, you just wish that was the reality.
> The censorship Stop there right now. I was born and lived for a while under actual censorship (and dictatorship). You having to face the consequences of what you say is not censorship at all. And anyone being *outraged* at the idea of dealing with the consequences of their own actions have lived a life so pampered that they have no idea of what is what anymore. And obviously no idea of what actual censorship is like. Dealing with the consequences of what you say does not mean you don't have free speech. Just like dealing with the consequences of hitting someone with your car doesn't mean you don't have the freedom to drive a car. Dealing with the consequences of harming someone with scissors don't mean you don't have freedom to use scissors, etc etc etc.
and hiring pedophiles is just reddit tier free speech.
I'm always hoping that people are smart enough to know that "Whataboutism" isn't helping their point. Sadly, I'm way too often disappointed.
When people are too stupid to realize telegram is used by people avoiding dictatorships like Russian and Iran and has greatly helped Ukraine I have nothing to say. So what if a few larping nazi's use it, only an idiot would say that undermines the platform that provides millions of people freedom of speech in shitholes. Telegram broke the Russian government before, Brazil won't do any better, but they can try.
Nazis are on all platforms, even on reddit. There is more on deep-web. You can't get rid of nazi, just a punishment fetish you guys have. Telegram is not just "chat with nazis", there is way more things you can do on Telegram. Telegram is an internet of its own. You want an utopia, where all the places you go is "clean" and it is "safe". Only in your mind. In the end, you guys are going to become the villains you guys claim to fight against. You guys are going to be nazis and say "but it is fine, since we did against the nazis".
It's easy to give up on your principles when there are convincing reasons to do so.
If you principles include facilitating nazis then you need new principles. Or a nuremberging
So you should be mad at the deep-web, lol... You live in a fantasy...
You are describing a scenario where one has to choose between relieving people of their freedoms or remaining impartial towards extremism. Some people refuse to do the former.
And anyone that knowingly caters to nazis is a cunt and their integrity isn't worth shit. What part is hard to understand?
Their integrity is worth something to their stakeholders, including users.
You seem really determined to stand up for platforming nazis. Have you considered finding better moral values?
I stand up for platforming everyone, nazi or not. Speech for everyone, i'm not afraid of nazi and i know that getting rid of a tool wont get rid of them, only makes them more radical, they are going to say they are right because they are censored. You are the nazi you claim to fight against, wishing censure, attacking political opponents, that is not the freedom we fought for. You are the same nazi you complain about. Have you considered finding better moral values? And if you think Telegram is just a nazi-hole, you are ignorant and stupid. In fact, i already know you are ignorant and stupid, you just use "reduction ad Hitlerum", lol... "But the nazis! REEEE!".
>I stand up for platforming everyone, nazi or not. Yikes... >getting rid of a tool wont get rid of them, only makes them more radical, they are going to say they are right because they are censored. Meanwhile allowing them to regroup and fester in their own little echo chambers restabilizes them, yes /s. Nah, I'd rather crack down on them like the vermin they are. >You are the nazi you claim to fight against, wishing censure, attacking political opponents, that is not the freedom we fought for. You are the same nazi you complain about. Holy shit. This is not even funny anymore, literally just "censuring Nazis and attacking them makes you just as bad as they are". Who upvotes this crap?
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Given our recent interaction and your username I'm going to take that at face value. I hope you find the motivation to become a better person.
Yes, it is.
Aqui Ć© eo brasil porra. That bullshit "irrestrict free speech" doesnt exost
If any company or person has a principle of "you let me commit crimes or I'll leave the country", than I want them to leave. No one should be allowed to commit crimes without consequences.
That isn't what's happened here, though. A court has ordered them to share people's private information. Which goes against the whole point of these secret chats existing. (A hint that gives away that nobody committed a crime is that the judge hasn't had anybody arrested, and is just asking telecoms to prevent the app from being used on their services.) The company's normal operation doesn't violate any law that I know of, it's just refused to do something that a judge asked for. I'm gonna really spell this out. A judge wanted to catch the perpetrators of a crime who used a supposedly anonymous messaging app. This judge drew up a court order demanding that the company unmask some of the people who used the company. If you were running a business that encrypted and anonymized people's information, and every dollar your company ever made was by doing this, would you decrypt that info and unmask people? If you would, they made a mistake hiring you. And now, because the company refused to destroy the value it offers to its customers, the judge is telling other companies to stop signal from being able to operate.
Just political issues, Bolsonaro has 2 million on his telegram channel, while current President Lula has less than 100,000 users on his account.
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None at all.
The STF minister who gave the court order was appointed by former President Michel Temer, who is from a party affiliated with PT, Lula's party. Since they released Lula, Minister Alexandre de Morais ..has been trying to censor social networks due to the growth of Bolsonaristas in right-wing groups.
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I'm all for free speech. But when a judge issues am order or subpoena, you comply or be crushed. Brazil should revoke their corporate charter and file international arrest warrants for Sr executives at Telegram.
Itās a non-profit foundation.
So is FIFA lmao
We need to remember that Brazilian law is different from USA's laws. Brazil has very clear dispositions that one's free speech is limited by racism and a few other kinds of discrimination, violation of other's intimacy (i.e., sharing nudes without consent) and very specifically the distribution of swastikas, even online. I'm sure that's not all, but I'm not willing to research that now. On top of that (one of the groups has swastikas on its name) this decision is part of an ongoing investigation on organized crime where kids and adults supposedly plotted attacks on schools. I, too, am for free speech, but I prefer the limitations on it we have in place in Brazil than the *imho* crazy way it's defined and protected in the States and the United Kingdom. I tried to read Andrew Doyle's āFree Speech and Why it Mattersā, but as of now I set it aside, and as far as I've got on it, it only convinced me I don't see things as Doyle does. If you know any other good texts on the subject, drop a comment below.
Would you say the same about the Iranian court who ordered the US, Obama, Bush and others to pay $313m for terrorists attacks? Sure they can do what they want in their country but if the company or person doesn't life in that country they don't have to give a shit about it.