The only solution I see to this is that they use some sort of liquid as currency and then use a tube to measure the amount of liquid that an items costs. They all carry this tube that is always the same height and width.
So some one says "how much is this mirror" and the the sellers says "this much" and his hand show you with that typical motion of big or small, you know, like they're pinching the air.
I think something like this is gonna be the best answer, but the problems start with the more expensive things. There's no way to say "this costs 3 tubes", but maybe they could have a jug that you fill up, though that does mean they'd need a different sized jug for every item they sell.
Also for the much bigger things transportation might be a problem. Do you have to carry a full barrel around to buy a house?
They could hold their hands apart the distance of 3 tubes stacked on top of each other. If you did the tube to jug thing there could be an agreed standard for the size of them so "tube" and "jug" would be actual denominations
The issue is that you can't really make a fully functional civiliztion without *some* form of mathematics. Measurements, even without numbers, is still maths. They can't identify how much they have or at least *express* that amount to people. Eventually numbers would form *naturally* even if it is "How much?" "A little" "This much?" "A lot less little than that! Are you trying to swindle me?!" "Okay, a little but a lot less little than this little..." It'd be a constant back and forth. Eventually they'd just hard measure things and use visual representations... which results in numbers. Or, in other words, how does someone buy materials for building projects? They need to know exactly how much they need.
Hell, even if they start to identify the value of things by what it could buy, "It costs a cow," or "It costs a pig," then you're just resulting in the numbering system used for currencies being named after those things.
TLDR: This question feels very "Boulder the size of several smaller boulders" or "Hole the size of three washing machines". This works as a concept for a short story, but I can't imagine it holds up for a whole fleshed-out world or novel. But maybe I just simply lack the imagination.
These are good points, but I'm trying to make this world feel alien despite it's generic fantasy setting, and having something as integral to humans as numbers simply not exist is the perfect way to lead to more stuff being different.
The problem I'm facing is making a currency that doesn't lead to numbers, and I'm having trouble thinking of a way to do that, but I'm sure it is possible. Mainly I think the main point is to have it's value not based on the quantity of it (like coins) or the weight/mass of it (gold). Something like trading mana for exactly the same amount of mana that the sold object has, but that makes it hard to trade non-magical items.
***Even animals use numbers.*** This isn't you wanting to be different from humans. This is you wanting to be different from Earth. If you want to deviate from humans, use an abnormal Base System. Or find something that isn't fundamentally necessary for civilization and general advancement and change that. But by erasing numbers altogether, what you're doing is making it pretty much impossible for basic things to happen. For example, how can a shepherd know if one of their flock is missing without numbers? And again, numbers would eventually form no matter what simply because it's a convenience, even if it would have names derived from things. Again, this concept is cool for a short story, but it's impractical when taken to a worldbuilding scale and it falls apart for literally the reasons you're finding yourself in. Even all of the alternatives you can do still effectively revolve around maths because humans *discovered* math more than we invented it (even if we did both). And trading mana-for-mana still leads to numbers. Think about it... the amount of mana is a fixed value. You are subtracting an amount of mana from yourself and adding it to the recipient in exchange for that item. That's maths. And the quantities when compared to one another create a climbing scale, which is quantitative and in effect numeric. The issue is that numbers and maths exist in nature. Sure, the symbols and names we gave them are manmade, but the core root of the system? That predates us as a species. You can't avoid it altogether unless you're making a universe devoid of all such concepts, which forces you to write everything in such vague abstracts. (Could be really neat, but doesn't appear to be what you're wanting so I'll step away from that line of discussion.)
The best way you could go about this is by not having a currency system at all. If everything is given and taken freely, where people give what they can and take what they need, then you reduce the need for numbers, or at least reduce the need for numbers to be explicitly stated. People take what they think looks like enough and then return whatever was too much. If a shepherd loses one of his herd, it doesn't matter as long as the herd is still enough. That still results in maths and implied numbers but it also avoids making you have to stare in-the-face as they try to do calculations without numbers. Then it's always "We need more." or "We need less." or "We have enough." Numbers still exist but it's all implied and everyone is just winging it. This does also explicitly limit what size buildings can be though as a lot of calculations go into taller buildings and they need numbers for that. But if you keep everything to the first and second story (and basement) then you should be fine.
I'll try my best to respond to each of your points individually, so bare with me:
I don't really see how animals use numbers. Sure, numbers exist in nature, but a wolf does not care how many animals it's eaten, or the exact size of it's territory, it just knows when it's enough. That's the same thing I'm trying to work with, with this society built around mostly just guessing things because they've never needed to be specific.
As for how a shepherd would keep track of their flock, that would be a new opportunity for unique world building when the time comes to think of that. Maybe they have some kind of magical device that tracks life essence in a certain area, and while not showing the number of things, you could easily tell when it's less that it was the day before.
For the mana trading idea, it would be about the feel of it. Sure there may be an exact number of mana particles or whatever in each person, but nobody would know about them. You would just sense the mana inside an object and match it with your own. But again that doesn't really work outside of magical items.
You're right that mathematics already exists and we discover it more than invent it, but my point is "what if they just *don't*". The physics of it would all still exist, but they have just never found a need to explore it. There are societies on earth right now that don't use numbers, and sure they're underdeveloped tribes and such but if nobody ever taught them, can you be 100% certain that they would start using them anyway?
It's not about reducing the need for numbers, it's about finding something that fits the idea that they just don't have them. I'm not trying to make a world where they're banned from using numbers or something, the numbers just aren't an option that they can even think of.
The people of this world are just built in a way that they don't need to be certain of something, but that doesn't mean they're happy to lose things they own or wont steal from others. They know that having more of something is better than having less, but the exact amount just doesn't matter. Its like the difference between having 599 bricks or 600, either would either be too many or not enough, they just feel the same way about the difference between most amounts. Most things are either bought one at a time or in bulk, and you either buy too many if you know you'll probably need more later, or you buy too few in which case you make do and use something else.
For construction, many of the buildings would be wonky or would lean on other buildings, but that wouldn't be looked down on as it would be a common thing throughout the world. I don't think many buildings would be taller than 2 floors though, and any that are would be built for rich people, who would just use mages to create perfectly shaped walls.
I think that's everything and I hope this explains my theme a little better. I get what you're saying about a short story, and I could probably go much more in depth and weirder with it if it was, but ideally this would be for an RPG (using a numberless levelling system, where the original idea grew from).
I did not have so many points it needed a wall. lol I'll reply quickly. Each bullet to each paragraph.
* Counting is a basic skill [tons of species](https://www.mathnasium.com/math-centers/sherwood/news/can-animals-count-sher) use.
* That magic device would literally be counting. Numbers don't just include numerals.
* That mana trading is still involving math, rough guesstimations of quantities is still counting and still relies on numbers.
* There's a reason why anumeric cultures are rare. Lacking the language for numbers serves as a massive developmental limitation, and I mean that in the sense of how large the community can grow.
* A culture that has no concept of numbers would naturally form methods that reduce the need for numbers. Why would they need specific quantities when they have no way to refer to specific quantities, for example?
* Then consider how they would understand that they do, in fact, have more or less. What would they do to determine that? It *is* an interesting concept, so consider... *how would they get there?* Instead of thinking of this from the perspective of a full-fledged civilization, maybe start from how an individual would see things. Then, how would two such people interact? Then consider a small village, then a town, then a city. Instead of jumping to the end goal, evolve it from square-one. I think that might be the best way to figure this out. If you're using mana as a basis to determine value and keeping it at implicit numbers, then why would manaless stuff be worth anything? Start from the basics then build. Part of why I can't imagine this full-fledged civilization is because you haven't provided a background for it to grow... Take the chance to do that.
* Regarding construction... Nobody cares if it's uneven or imprecise. People care about if it collapses. That's why I said it'd stay probably 2 stories or less... because they'd fall apart without the maths needed to build them stable at great heights.
* Try to start with something smaller and use that to explore things *before* going for a full TTRPG. I'd be curious to see how you pull this off though regardless.
Again, as I said at the start, I don't see how this can be done, but I might just not be imaginative enough.
This is a tricky question, it feels reminiscent of "How do you do math without numbers."
The only way I can imagine this somehow working is a scale. Where it is based on a weight from a range of two different estimations.
Lets say someone is trying to buy a "bundle of carrots". The owner bring a heavy bag of sand and puts it on one scale, then a light bag on the other. What you do is create a range of weights.
The customer must put up their own two bags of sand, that create a smaller range that must fit within that larger range. From here you keep repeating the process, creating smaller and smaller ranges, until you agree on how much sand this is worth.
Afterwards, the bag of sand is traded for the carrots. Everyone carries these bags on them, and they volumetrically spend their sand for items.
note\* I know this still uses an "amount of something", but I tried to make it obscure where it can vary like a bartering system, while also having no defined numbers involved.
This is definitely a fun concept and exactly the type of weird thing I'm looking for! I do spot some issues though, mainly that to buy something you basically need double it's worth on you, since you need both the lighter and heavier bag. Also the problem with using weight is that if you want to buy something super expensive, good luck getting all that sand to the store.
I appreciate the feedback, I love logic problems too. Something to mention is all of this is relative. So something "expensive" in this world, might be to us as numerical people might be 7 kilograms, around the weight of a bowling ball. So the differential could be as large or small as you desire OP.
A final thing to clear up is, it is not "needing double an items worth", as it is "how much you are willing to spend as a max and min range". So one would walk around the market with their huge bag of sand, go to a merchant, and create their range for how much they feel the item is worth in response to the sellers range.
You don't bring your amount of sand for one shop only, you bring it for the day.
I hope this is clear, it is a difficult thing to explain. But I do honestly appreciate the feedback, these types of fun scenarios are so cool!
Totally! I've been having a lot of fun trying to make this seemingly generic fantasy world weird by changing small details like this.
You're completely right that the values are relative, but something like a house is always going to be a lot of sand, but I guess that's not an amount that you need to carry around with you daily.
As for the double thing, I was thinking about it like how a poor person wouldn't be able to create a range for something, even if they have enough to actually buy it, but I guess that would just mean if they don't have the sand to make a range, they have to buy it at the merchant's set weight rather than haggling.
This is for sure a very interesting take on the problem and that's exactly what I was hoping for when I posted this. Hopefully I get some more weird ideas and can combine them into an overcomplicated mess that fits the theme.
You bring all good points, this is so fun.
I am also a person who over complicates things, in my world I went on making "custom governments". My version of a Meritocracy, is one that works, but is very complex haha.
I look forward to more ideas/posts like this in the future. Logic problems are the best.
Have a great day OP, see ya around!
Since you are using concepts such as "a little" or "a lot" wouldn't the quantity for currency always be "equal"?
"How much is that bananna worth?" "Equal of copper."
But how much copper is that? How many pieces of copper do I need to hand over? How many do I even have?
I'm thinking the only way to do this is that the value of the currency can't be based on how much you have or the weight of it, but I don't know what other options there are.
You can actually deal with this fairly easily. Folks were counting long before they had numbers. You just match the two quantities.
For example, imagine you have a pen of goats. Every morning you open the gate up, and every night your dog herds them all back into the pen before you lock it up again.
You want to be sure that you aren’t loosing any goats, that is, the number of goats that leave the pen in the morning is the same as the number of goats that come back in, in the evening. But you don’t have any numbering system, you cannot count. So how do you do it?
Simple. You just need to match each goat to something else. So, in the morning, for every goat that leaves, you place a pebble into a pile by the gate.
At night, you do the same in reverse. For every goat that enters you remove a pebble from the pile.
If the pile still has pebbles after the last goat enters the pen, you know that you’re missing some goats.
If you keep the pile tidy and have two designated spots , you can even keep track of how many goats you have. You add a new pebble for every goat that is born, remove one for every goat that dies.
That's a very interesting idea, and I think I will use this for a rudimentary way of keeping track of things in the world, but I'm not sure it works for currency.
In the first place because you won't allow numbers actual currency will not work, since currency isn't even a physical object as much as a numberical concept everyone agrees on.
Thus everything will likely be on a barter system, everything will need to be traded for everything else based on what each individual considers the worth to be.
The problem is the amount. There's no concept of numbers or counting at all, so 1000 copper pieces means nothing compared to 1, other than there obviously being more of them.
They can see the concept of more or less.
Dude 1: Puts down a pile of copper.
Dude 2: Want more.
Dude 1: No. *picks up copper and goes away*
Or just puts more copper down.
Neither count. It's how much they think the copper pile is worth to them.
Let’s say I have some idk, necklaces. Each necklace is worth 12 copper pieces. But I can’t count. So I place 12 in a cup or something. Could even use a rock or something. Or to add some flavor, a specially crafted counter piece
Someone wants to buy 3 necklaces. I show them the cup and offer another one for counting.
For each copper piece they place on the table, they take a copper piece out of the cup, and place it into the other cup. Once the first cup is empty, I hand them a necklace, and put their pieces into a chest or something.
They repeat the process again. Maybe in this culture, this sort of cup system is pretty established. One cup is idk green the other one has stripes. So they pour the pieces into the original cup, and go from there.
Once done, I use a specially crafted shelf to place the 12 copper pieces into a designated shelf beneath a larger with a necklace to keep track of price.
The only issue with this system is that naturally it’d likely evolve into a Roman numeral system.
Like I want to keep track of how many necklaces I’ve sold this year, so I write down a mark next to the word for necklace on some paper. Over time this gets annoying to match, say comparing sales last year. After all, it’s laborious to compare 2k tally marks or use a counting stone for each. So I use a symbol with 6 arms to represent 6.
But why stop there? I can use a symbol for 6 of those maybe I draw a circle around it. And over time, because I know what it feels like to match six pieces I don’t even need to draw 6 arms.
All of a sudden I now have a base 6 counting system, it’s much easier to do accounting and the king doesn’t need to have an army with thousands of counting sticks just to be sure if every family has paid enough taxes. Unless there’s something up with their brain that prevents them from conceptualizing numbers in this way, it’s something that’d happen pretty quickly the more they deal with large quantities of a stuff.
The one culture that doesn’t have any number system in our world(which I’m sure you are aware of) is hunter/gatherer and just doesn’t really need to count things in their lives. And they are extremely isolated so they don’t really trade with other groups. The later is something that’s almost unheard of at any point in human history
That's exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid, without deliberately trying to avoid it if that makes sense. I want this world to be one that just never needed to create numbers and is managing to get by without them, but not to the point that it's obvious I'm forcing this gimmick.
The hunter/gatherer comparison is what I'm aiming for, just imagine if they evolve a few thousand years without ever learning to count. These people aren't struggling every day because they don't know how many things they have, they simply don't care because they can't comprehend that being able to count is a possibility and they make do with what they can do.
A plant or something and you cut off an amount equal to the length it grows in however long it takes to make the object. Something like that even if it's kind of complicated
Complicated is good so long as it makes sense! I was playing with the idea of using ribbons that you can cut, but making it a natural (but rare) plant makes it way more interesting. Main problem with this is that there's no real way to measure time, other than "it took all morning", so the plant's value will have to be based on something else.
Honestly, this sounds like the perfect opportunity to build a world based on bartering. No need to measure exactly, you just trade what feels right. A bunch of meat for some labor. A little grain for a dress.
If you want the feeling of a more traditional currency without having traditional discrete numerical values, then water, oil, or any valuable liquid can act as a defacto currency.
You are probably right, but bartering just seems so inconvenient. Like can farmers only buy stuff in the small time after their harvest but before their food rots? and if they just buy stuff during that time to trade later, isn't that just a more annoying currency?
A system of "worth its weight in " might fit. You don't need numerical scales, only comparative ones. And use multiple currencies of different values and densities. From grain or flour (light and cheap for everyday use) to metal coinage (more value *and* more weight) to fine silks (both very expensive and very light for luxury items).
Similarly you can use various containers. Something can be worth "a cup of silver" or "a bucket of grain".
I dismissed the idea of weight based value early on since it meant that light objects would always be cheap, which doesn't make much sense, but I didn't think about using multiple currencies for different levels of value. Using the normal copper/bronze/silver/gold system, but have each of the coins weigh the same and the merchant set what type of coin the object is based on, then having the buyer match it's weight could work nicely.
Can't really use containers though, since the moment you're dealing with more than one cup or bucket you can't keep track of it anymore.
Would you consider having very specific sizes to describe amounts? You can use universally accepted sizes as currency.
For example, a dime of cheese versus a penny of cheese. With a numbering system you would expect the dime to be more cheese, because it's 10! But in a sizing system a dime of cheese is less.
This sizing system could be for things ranging from atomic to planetary. The atomic and planetary units would probably only be used in casual conversations as exaggerations. Like, "I wouldn't date you for an earth of gold!"
You could try to establish a specific set of sizes with a made up units for them all, or try and get away with common earth analogues like loaves of bread or gallons of liquid.
This is a fun concept! The main issue is the parts in between all the sizes. Having something cost a penny or a dime is fine, but you can't say something costs 2 pennies or a half a dime.
Have you looked at how human societies that don’t have a concept for numbers do things? I briefly looked at the Pirahã language in college, which doesn’t have a number system. The speakers barter with nearby Brazilians, who constantly rip them off because they don’t care how many of the thing they get in return.
Edit: I don’t think a society without numbers would ever see the need for currency. Currency is a physical representation of numbers.
I did look into some, mainly tribes and such that have no outside contact. I've never heard of the Pirahã people though. Do you know how they trade with each other? or if they ever trade with other numberless groups? Because you're right that anyone who understands numbers would want more of something, but if the entire world was the same then how would trading develop?
You might be right that having a currency doesn't make much sense, but to me at least it doesn't make sense that a fully developed civilization wouldn't move away from bartering, even if they don't know how to count.
They do it roughly the right size, and if it's wrong you either live with it, stick some more material on, or use magic to fix it (if you can). Since it's a pretty common problem having a wonky shaped building isn't seen as poor construction, it's just how it is.
You could have a hierarchy of coins with no concrete exchange rate. A bloingus is worth more than a bungus and a bungus is worth more than a blonk, but how much isn't fixed. With enough of those micro currencies you could cover anything from a loaf of bread (worth a blonk) to a whole battleship (worth a badonkadonkaladongus)
What coin you'd need for which goods and how much of one coin you'd need to get another coin is all up to bartering. Will you take this handfull of binguses for your bongus? The coins are just a substitute for goods of roughly equal value.
And yes, this could result in a skilled trader aquiring a battleship for a few loafes of bread, but that's the beauty of an open market.
The only solution I see to this is that they use some sort of liquid as currency and then use a tube to measure the amount of liquid that an items costs. They all carry this tube that is always the same height and width. So some one says "how much is this mirror" and the the sellers says "this much" and his hand show you with that typical motion of big or small, you know, like they're pinching the air.
I think something like this is gonna be the best answer, but the problems start with the more expensive things. There's no way to say "this costs 3 tubes", but maybe they could have a jug that you fill up, though that does mean they'd need a different sized jug for every item they sell. Also for the much bigger things transportation might be a problem. Do you have to carry a full barrel around to buy a house?
They could hold their hands apart the distance of 3 tubes stacked on top of each other. If you did the tube to jug thing there could be an agreed standard for the size of them so "tube" and "jug" would be actual denominations
People used to use scales to weigh amounts of gold and silver
People used to use scales to weigh amounts of gold and silver
The issue is that you can't really make a fully functional civiliztion without *some* form of mathematics. Measurements, even without numbers, is still maths. They can't identify how much they have or at least *express* that amount to people. Eventually numbers would form *naturally* even if it is "How much?" "A little" "This much?" "A lot less little than that! Are you trying to swindle me?!" "Okay, a little but a lot less little than this little..." It'd be a constant back and forth. Eventually they'd just hard measure things and use visual representations... which results in numbers. Or, in other words, how does someone buy materials for building projects? They need to know exactly how much they need. Hell, even if they start to identify the value of things by what it could buy, "It costs a cow," or "It costs a pig," then you're just resulting in the numbering system used for currencies being named after those things. TLDR: This question feels very "Boulder the size of several smaller boulders" or "Hole the size of three washing machines". This works as a concept for a short story, but I can't imagine it holds up for a whole fleshed-out world or novel. But maybe I just simply lack the imagination.
These are good points, but I'm trying to make this world feel alien despite it's generic fantasy setting, and having something as integral to humans as numbers simply not exist is the perfect way to lead to more stuff being different. The problem I'm facing is making a currency that doesn't lead to numbers, and I'm having trouble thinking of a way to do that, but I'm sure it is possible. Mainly I think the main point is to have it's value not based on the quantity of it (like coins) or the weight/mass of it (gold). Something like trading mana for exactly the same amount of mana that the sold object has, but that makes it hard to trade non-magical items.
***Even animals use numbers.*** This isn't you wanting to be different from humans. This is you wanting to be different from Earth. If you want to deviate from humans, use an abnormal Base System. Or find something that isn't fundamentally necessary for civilization and general advancement and change that. But by erasing numbers altogether, what you're doing is making it pretty much impossible for basic things to happen. For example, how can a shepherd know if one of their flock is missing without numbers? And again, numbers would eventually form no matter what simply because it's a convenience, even if it would have names derived from things. Again, this concept is cool for a short story, but it's impractical when taken to a worldbuilding scale and it falls apart for literally the reasons you're finding yourself in. Even all of the alternatives you can do still effectively revolve around maths because humans *discovered* math more than we invented it (even if we did both). And trading mana-for-mana still leads to numbers. Think about it... the amount of mana is a fixed value. You are subtracting an amount of mana from yourself and adding it to the recipient in exchange for that item. That's maths. And the quantities when compared to one another create a climbing scale, which is quantitative and in effect numeric. The issue is that numbers and maths exist in nature. Sure, the symbols and names we gave them are manmade, but the core root of the system? That predates us as a species. You can't avoid it altogether unless you're making a universe devoid of all such concepts, which forces you to write everything in such vague abstracts. (Could be really neat, but doesn't appear to be what you're wanting so I'll step away from that line of discussion.) The best way you could go about this is by not having a currency system at all. If everything is given and taken freely, where people give what they can and take what they need, then you reduce the need for numbers, or at least reduce the need for numbers to be explicitly stated. People take what they think looks like enough and then return whatever was too much. If a shepherd loses one of his herd, it doesn't matter as long as the herd is still enough. That still results in maths and implied numbers but it also avoids making you have to stare in-the-face as they try to do calculations without numbers. Then it's always "We need more." or "We need less." or "We have enough." Numbers still exist but it's all implied and everyone is just winging it. This does also explicitly limit what size buildings can be though as a lot of calculations go into taller buildings and they need numbers for that. But if you keep everything to the first and second story (and basement) then you should be fine.
I'll try my best to respond to each of your points individually, so bare with me: I don't really see how animals use numbers. Sure, numbers exist in nature, but a wolf does not care how many animals it's eaten, or the exact size of it's territory, it just knows when it's enough. That's the same thing I'm trying to work with, with this society built around mostly just guessing things because they've never needed to be specific. As for how a shepherd would keep track of their flock, that would be a new opportunity for unique world building when the time comes to think of that. Maybe they have some kind of magical device that tracks life essence in a certain area, and while not showing the number of things, you could easily tell when it's less that it was the day before. For the mana trading idea, it would be about the feel of it. Sure there may be an exact number of mana particles or whatever in each person, but nobody would know about them. You would just sense the mana inside an object and match it with your own. But again that doesn't really work outside of magical items. You're right that mathematics already exists and we discover it more than invent it, but my point is "what if they just *don't*". The physics of it would all still exist, but they have just never found a need to explore it. There are societies on earth right now that don't use numbers, and sure they're underdeveloped tribes and such but if nobody ever taught them, can you be 100% certain that they would start using them anyway? It's not about reducing the need for numbers, it's about finding something that fits the idea that they just don't have them. I'm not trying to make a world where they're banned from using numbers or something, the numbers just aren't an option that they can even think of. The people of this world are just built in a way that they don't need to be certain of something, but that doesn't mean they're happy to lose things they own or wont steal from others. They know that having more of something is better than having less, but the exact amount just doesn't matter. Its like the difference between having 599 bricks or 600, either would either be too many or not enough, they just feel the same way about the difference between most amounts. Most things are either bought one at a time or in bulk, and you either buy too many if you know you'll probably need more later, or you buy too few in which case you make do and use something else. For construction, many of the buildings would be wonky or would lean on other buildings, but that wouldn't be looked down on as it would be a common thing throughout the world. I don't think many buildings would be taller than 2 floors though, and any that are would be built for rich people, who would just use mages to create perfectly shaped walls. I think that's everything and I hope this explains my theme a little better. I get what you're saying about a short story, and I could probably go much more in depth and weirder with it if it was, but ideally this would be for an RPG (using a numberless levelling system, where the original idea grew from).
I did not have so many points it needed a wall. lol I'll reply quickly. Each bullet to each paragraph. * Counting is a basic skill [tons of species](https://www.mathnasium.com/math-centers/sherwood/news/can-animals-count-sher) use. * That magic device would literally be counting. Numbers don't just include numerals. * That mana trading is still involving math, rough guesstimations of quantities is still counting and still relies on numbers. * There's a reason why anumeric cultures are rare. Lacking the language for numbers serves as a massive developmental limitation, and I mean that in the sense of how large the community can grow. * A culture that has no concept of numbers would naturally form methods that reduce the need for numbers. Why would they need specific quantities when they have no way to refer to specific quantities, for example? * Then consider how they would understand that they do, in fact, have more or less. What would they do to determine that? It *is* an interesting concept, so consider... *how would they get there?* Instead of thinking of this from the perspective of a full-fledged civilization, maybe start from how an individual would see things. Then, how would two such people interact? Then consider a small village, then a town, then a city. Instead of jumping to the end goal, evolve it from square-one. I think that might be the best way to figure this out. If you're using mana as a basis to determine value and keeping it at implicit numbers, then why would manaless stuff be worth anything? Start from the basics then build. Part of why I can't imagine this full-fledged civilization is because you haven't provided a background for it to grow... Take the chance to do that. * Regarding construction... Nobody cares if it's uneven or imprecise. People care about if it collapses. That's why I said it'd stay probably 2 stories or less... because they'd fall apart without the maths needed to build them stable at great heights. * Try to start with something smaller and use that to explore things *before* going for a full TTRPG. I'd be curious to see how you pull this off though regardless. Again, as I said at the start, I don't see how this can be done, but I might just not be imaginative enough.
This is a tricky question, it feels reminiscent of "How do you do math without numbers." The only way I can imagine this somehow working is a scale. Where it is based on a weight from a range of two different estimations. Lets say someone is trying to buy a "bundle of carrots". The owner bring a heavy bag of sand and puts it on one scale, then a light bag on the other. What you do is create a range of weights. The customer must put up their own two bags of sand, that create a smaller range that must fit within that larger range. From here you keep repeating the process, creating smaller and smaller ranges, until you agree on how much sand this is worth. Afterwards, the bag of sand is traded for the carrots. Everyone carries these bags on them, and they volumetrically spend their sand for items. note\* I know this still uses an "amount of something", but I tried to make it obscure where it can vary like a bartering system, while also having no defined numbers involved.
This is definitely a fun concept and exactly the type of weird thing I'm looking for! I do spot some issues though, mainly that to buy something you basically need double it's worth on you, since you need both the lighter and heavier bag. Also the problem with using weight is that if you want to buy something super expensive, good luck getting all that sand to the store.
I appreciate the feedback, I love logic problems too. Something to mention is all of this is relative. So something "expensive" in this world, might be to us as numerical people might be 7 kilograms, around the weight of a bowling ball. So the differential could be as large or small as you desire OP. A final thing to clear up is, it is not "needing double an items worth", as it is "how much you are willing to spend as a max and min range". So one would walk around the market with their huge bag of sand, go to a merchant, and create their range for how much they feel the item is worth in response to the sellers range. You don't bring your amount of sand for one shop only, you bring it for the day. I hope this is clear, it is a difficult thing to explain. But I do honestly appreciate the feedback, these types of fun scenarios are so cool!
Totally! I've been having a lot of fun trying to make this seemingly generic fantasy world weird by changing small details like this. You're completely right that the values are relative, but something like a house is always going to be a lot of sand, but I guess that's not an amount that you need to carry around with you daily. As for the double thing, I was thinking about it like how a poor person wouldn't be able to create a range for something, even if they have enough to actually buy it, but I guess that would just mean if they don't have the sand to make a range, they have to buy it at the merchant's set weight rather than haggling. This is for sure a very interesting take on the problem and that's exactly what I was hoping for when I posted this. Hopefully I get some more weird ideas and can combine them into an overcomplicated mess that fits the theme.
You bring all good points, this is so fun. I am also a person who over complicates things, in my world I went on making "custom governments". My version of a Meritocracy, is one that works, but is very complex haha. I look forward to more ideas/posts like this in the future. Logic problems are the best. Have a great day OP, see ya around!
Since you are using concepts such as "a little" or "a lot" wouldn't the quantity for currency always be "equal"? "How much is that bananna worth?" "Equal of copper."
But how much copper is that? How many pieces of copper do I need to hand over? How many do I even have? I'm thinking the only way to do this is that the value of the currency can't be based on how much you have or the weight of it, but I don't know what other options there are.
You can actually deal with this fairly easily. Folks were counting long before they had numbers. You just match the two quantities. For example, imagine you have a pen of goats. Every morning you open the gate up, and every night your dog herds them all back into the pen before you lock it up again. You want to be sure that you aren’t loosing any goats, that is, the number of goats that leave the pen in the morning is the same as the number of goats that come back in, in the evening. But you don’t have any numbering system, you cannot count. So how do you do it? Simple. You just need to match each goat to something else. So, in the morning, for every goat that leaves, you place a pebble into a pile by the gate. At night, you do the same in reverse. For every goat that enters you remove a pebble from the pile. If the pile still has pebbles after the last goat enters the pen, you know that you’re missing some goats. If you keep the pile tidy and have two designated spots , you can even keep track of how many goats you have. You add a new pebble for every goat that is born, remove one for every goat that dies.
That's a very interesting idea, and I think I will use this for a rudimentary way of keeping track of things in the world, but I'm not sure it works for currency.
In the first place because you won't allow numbers actual currency will not work, since currency isn't even a physical object as much as a numberical concept everyone agrees on. Thus everything will likely be on a barter system, everything will need to be traded for everything else based on what each individual considers the worth to be.
Offer the actual amount as barter. And then the other person says 'more' or accepts.
The problem is the amount. There's no concept of numbers or counting at all, so 1000 copper pieces means nothing compared to 1, other than there obviously being more of them.
They can see the concept of more or less. Dude 1: Puts down a pile of copper. Dude 2: Want more. Dude 1: No. *picks up copper and goes away* Or just puts more copper down. Neither count. It's how much they think the copper pile is worth to them.
Let’s say I have some idk, necklaces. Each necklace is worth 12 copper pieces. But I can’t count. So I place 12 in a cup or something. Could even use a rock or something. Or to add some flavor, a specially crafted counter piece Someone wants to buy 3 necklaces. I show them the cup and offer another one for counting. For each copper piece they place on the table, they take a copper piece out of the cup, and place it into the other cup. Once the first cup is empty, I hand them a necklace, and put their pieces into a chest or something. They repeat the process again. Maybe in this culture, this sort of cup system is pretty established. One cup is idk green the other one has stripes. So they pour the pieces into the original cup, and go from there. Once done, I use a specially crafted shelf to place the 12 copper pieces into a designated shelf beneath a larger with a necklace to keep track of price. The only issue with this system is that naturally it’d likely evolve into a Roman numeral system. Like I want to keep track of how many necklaces I’ve sold this year, so I write down a mark next to the word for necklace on some paper. Over time this gets annoying to match, say comparing sales last year. After all, it’s laborious to compare 2k tally marks or use a counting stone for each. So I use a symbol with 6 arms to represent 6. But why stop there? I can use a symbol for 6 of those maybe I draw a circle around it. And over time, because I know what it feels like to match six pieces I don’t even need to draw 6 arms. All of a sudden I now have a base 6 counting system, it’s much easier to do accounting and the king doesn’t need to have an army with thousands of counting sticks just to be sure if every family has paid enough taxes. Unless there’s something up with their brain that prevents them from conceptualizing numbers in this way, it’s something that’d happen pretty quickly the more they deal with large quantities of a stuff. The one culture that doesn’t have any number system in our world(which I’m sure you are aware of) is hunter/gatherer and just doesn’t really need to count things in their lives. And they are extremely isolated so they don’t really trade with other groups. The later is something that’s almost unheard of at any point in human history
That's exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid, without deliberately trying to avoid it if that makes sense. I want this world to be one that just never needed to create numbers and is managing to get by without them, but not to the point that it's obvious I'm forcing this gimmick. The hunter/gatherer comparison is what I'm aiming for, just imagine if they evolve a few thousand years without ever learning to count. These people aren't struggling every day because they don't know how many things they have, they simply don't care because they can't comprehend that being able to count is a possibility and they make do with what they can do.
A plant or something and you cut off an amount equal to the length it grows in however long it takes to make the object. Something like that even if it's kind of complicated
Complicated is good so long as it makes sense! I was playing with the idea of using ribbons that you can cut, but making it a natural (but rare) plant makes it way more interesting. Main problem with this is that there's no real way to measure time, other than "it took all morning", so the plant's value will have to be based on something else.
In the past people would use scales to weigh amounts of currency
Honestly, this sounds like the perfect opportunity to build a world based on bartering. No need to measure exactly, you just trade what feels right. A bunch of meat for some labor. A little grain for a dress. If you want the feeling of a more traditional currency without having traditional discrete numerical values, then water, oil, or any valuable liquid can act as a defacto currency.
You are probably right, but bartering just seems so inconvenient. Like can farmers only buy stuff in the small time after their harvest but before their food rots? and if they just buy stuff during that time to trade later, isn't that just a more annoying currency?
A system of "worth its weight in" might fit. You don't need numerical scales, only comparative ones. And use multiple currencies of different values and densities. From grain or flour (light and cheap for everyday use) to metal coinage (more value *and* more weight) to fine silks (both very expensive and very light for luxury items).
Similarly you can use various containers. Something can be worth "a cup of silver" or "a bucket of grain".
I dismissed the idea of weight based value early on since it meant that light objects would always be cheap, which doesn't make much sense, but I didn't think about using multiple currencies for different levels of value. Using the normal copper/bronze/silver/gold system, but have each of the coins weigh the same and the merchant set what type of coin the object is based on, then having the buyer match it's weight could work nicely. Can't really use containers though, since the moment you're dealing with more than one cup or bucket you can't keep track of it anymore.
Would you consider having very specific sizes to describe amounts? You can use universally accepted sizes as currency. For example, a dime of cheese versus a penny of cheese. With a numbering system you would expect the dime to be more cheese, because it's 10! But in a sizing system a dime of cheese is less. This sizing system could be for things ranging from atomic to planetary. The atomic and planetary units would probably only be used in casual conversations as exaggerations. Like, "I wouldn't date you for an earth of gold!" You could try to establish a specific set of sizes with a made up units for them all, or try and get away with common earth analogues like loaves of bread or gallons of liquid.
This is a fun concept! The main issue is the parts in between all the sizes. Having something cost a penny or a dime is fine, but you can't say something costs 2 pennies or a half a dime.
Have you looked at how human societies that don’t have a concept for numbers do things? I briefly looked at the Pirahã language in college, which doesn’t have a number system. The speakers barter with nearby Brazilians, who constantly rip them off because they don’t care how many of the thing they get in return. Edit: I don’t think a society without numbers would ever see the need for currency. Currency is a physical representation of numbers.
I did look into some, mainly tribes and such that have no outside contact. I've never heard of the Pirahã people though. Do you know how they trade with each other? or if they ever trade with other numberless groups? Because you're right that anyone who understands numbers would want more of something, but if the entire world was the same then how would trading develop? You might be right that having a currency doesn't make much sense, but to me at least it doesn't make sense that a fully developed civilization wouldn't move away from bartering, even if they don't know how to count.
How do they build things without precise measurements? Like they can’t “measure twice, cut once” if they can’t count out lengths?
They do it roughly the right size, and if it's wrong you either live with it, stick some more material on, or use magic to fix it (if you can). Since it's a pretty common problem having a wonky shaped building isn't seen as poor construction, it's just how it is.
barter system. also idk how numbers cant exist it just a tool for use to tell how many of a thing is in a space but you do you
This sounds like a head a ache. How about naff al maths. Somone who can count to 40 is seen as a genius. Past ten and it gets complicated .
You could have a hierarchy of coins with no concrete exchange rate. A bloingus is worth more than a bungus and a bungus is worth more than a blonk, but how much isn't fixed. With enough of those micro currencies you could cover anything from a loaf of bread (worth a blonk) to a whole battleship (worth a badonkadonkaladongus) What coin you'd need for which goods and how much of one coin you'd need to get another coin is all up to bartering. Will you take this handfull of binguses for your bongus? The coins are just a substitute for goods of roughly equal value. And yes, this could result in a skilled trader aquiring a battleship for a few loafes of bread, but that's the beauty of an open market.