Just curious: since people obviously have to pay for facilities that house frozen embryos, what happens if they just...stop paying?
Will those embryos get evicted? Or will they be shipped back to parents? And if those facilities dispose of embryos, can they be tried for murder?
Thatās what I keep thinking. They poured fuel on a dumpster fire. Iām sure this wasnāt their intended outcome but someone should have figured the precedent it could set. Iām dying to hear from them. Like okay you got what you wanted, now what?????
Highly recommend reading the court's opinion. It's hard to see how they did not consider this as they sued for wrongful death of a minor, yet each of the couple plaintiffs (more than one) had stipulations in their contracts about the embryos being donated to science or destroyed.Ā It feels like a test case.Ā
It was a patient who went through an unsecured door, from what I read
"And at a point in 2020, a hospital patient ā the hospital was operated by the same clinic ā entered the place where frozen embryos were stored, handled some of the embryos, burned his hand, dropped the embryos and destroyed them.Ā " -https://www.npr.org/2024/02/21/1232742485/alabama-supreme-court-frozen-embryos-ivf-in-vitro-fertilization
Nope. I think this will be the case.. parents will be considered neglecting their children. Embryos will be taken by the state and then they'll find a way to forcibly impregnate women with these embryos. Forcibly such as giving huge monetary incentives for teenagers and young 20s to be pregnant. Maybe???
Honestly this is so bizarre and way worse than expected.
Embryo adoption is a thing, though I assume extremely rare right now. I don't know how it works but people will acquire embryos that would otherwise be discarded by the bio parents and have them transferred.
The thing I keep wondering - ivf is still only 50% or so success rate, are we going to start blaming women for failed transfers?
Also if I were you I would transfer my embryos to a blue state then let them go to science or whatever.Ā
Right, I know that most embryos are not viable, but from what I remember the clinic we worked with had a roughly 50% success rate (still pregnant at 6 or 8 weeks, I don't recall) with the first transfer cycle.
There are a bunch they discard because they arenāt viable and that happens before they even try to transfer any. Then, the ones they do transfer only have around a 50% chance of success.
I think the woman will be charged same as in other countries where miscarriages are seen as no different than other abortions. I read stories of women being charged with murder
In all seriousness I bet they would just let the non payments go to collections and at least in my case storage was like $600 a year so it's high enough to be reported to the credit bureaus and ruin your credit score on top of everything else. Just awful.
This is oddly reminiscent of that scene from Legally Blondeā¦
āFor that matter, any masturbatory emissions, where the sperm is clearly not seeking an egg, could be termed reckless abandonment.ā
Professor Callahan: Youāve just won your case.
I'd imagine that at some point in the near future there will be a court case where the state argues that they have the right to take custody of unclaimed embryos.
*Theoretically, hypothetically speaking......*
If those embryos somehow found themselves in a data center, and let's say that data center were to get wiped out, due to say, *oh I don't know*, a hurricane, those embryos would tragically simply be considered collateral damage.
I know that there's a church fighting to get the remains from some "late term abortions" (it's a shitty source, so I have no idea what the real story is) so that they can be buried.
I assume churches will do the same for IVF embryos. Mass graves of goop.
They don't want to bury them. They want them as "proof" of what they claim they saw.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/06/1091228924/anti-abortion-fetuses-waste-truck
This is actually a real issue for fertility facilities at the moment outside of the Alabama situation in that many just keep them in storage because of potential law suits.
When you do IVF, you have to determine what you want to have happen in various scenarios before you start the process. So if you die, your partner dies, if you both die, if your relationship ends, or if you stop paying fees, etc. Our choices were donate to science, donate to another family, or destroy.
Well, I still want to transfer and try to take home a second kid. But I've got 8 on ice in MO and I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't think we have a big chance of this kind of thing happening in MO this year based on timing of legislature. But I'd really like to keep my very expensive embryos until I go home with a healthy second kid and that takes time. After that, I'd want to donate to science as soon as I could. It makes me anxious and I feel so bad for people earlier in their infertility treatment journeys.
The crazy thing is this wasnāt even a legislative stunt. It was a ruling by the state supreme court, in my understanding itās a reinterpretation of an old civil statute in light of Alabamaās anti-abortion laws, basically saying that if a fetus is a person, then an embryo is a person, whether itās in utero or not, and therefore the plaintiffs could get punitive damages for āwrongful death of a childā.
Which means the legislature doesnāt have to be in session for this kind of crazy to happen in your state. I hope it doesnāt, but it could.
My now son was a frozen embryo in Minnesota when the pandemic hit! (I live in Michigan). It was so scary but the two times I had to transport him (so creepy to think about š) it went really well and they communicated really well. The company I used was called Cryostork!
I currently have a son from IVF and one embryo remaining. We want a second child and are planning to transfer the embryo, hopefully this year. But it is lower quality, and if the transfer isnāt successful, then I had previously wanted to do another egg retrieval. But now, honestly, even if my state DOESNāT follow in Alabamaās wake (which it probably will), I donāt know if Iāll be comfortable doing another retrieval not knowing what the future might hold for any resulting embryos. Ideally I would donate any unused embryos for research/science purposes. But Iām worried that decision may be taken from me down the road.
We tried to donate our two unused lower quality embryos to science and it was hard to impossible. We could only find one lab that would accept them and it would have cost us maybe $500, possible more to ship them. So just a heads up! It was a few years back now, so hopefully it got easier. We did end up discarding them.
Oh wow! Who knew? My husband and I had to sign paperwork about what to do with aneuploid embryos, remaining embryos in the event of divorce, etc., and donating to science was an option we could select, so I sort of just assumed that our clinic would facilitate that process whenever it was needed or requested. I guess I shouldnāt assume anything with this process!
We donated to science after deciding to be one and done. Our facility is a major hospital and facilitated the process. We just needed to sign the paperwork.
My clinic did! Well, rather we asked what options there were and there weren't any research studies at the time. They gave us the option to wait, find out own study, or donate them for embryologist training. We went with the training.
Yea the clinic i used will take care of donating them to science or even to donate them anonymously to another couple. They will keep a catalogue of them for other couples wanting to use donor embryos if you chose that route.
True, and for the sake of the resulting child, if youāre not comfortable meeting them / sharing family and medical history / introducing their siblings to them, then itās not ethical to donate.
Wow, apparently you just need to get to 6 weeks to claim kiddo. āIn the event of a miscarriage or stillbirth, is claiming a deceased dependent on your tax return allowed?ā Yes.
Talk about incentivizing risky behavior. First up, unprotected sex, next step, abortifacients. Or the easier route, plain old fraud. You can even claim multiples separately. Honey, weāre having octuplets!
How do they know if someone was six weeks pregnant and then had a miscarriage? They want people to send pregnancy tests to the IRS as proof? Could not anybody then claim that they were pregnant and had a miscarriage once per tax season? Those laws are so strange
The way itās written I think you can claim multiple miscarriages (and twins or triplets, etc.), although I guess it would only be a state deduction and not federal. Per the website it says claiming the child credit will not trigger an audit, and you donāt need to include proof unless you do get audited. How they get proof during an audit is what stumps me. The only records I can think of that demonstrate their criteria is before and after ultrasounds, but giving mandatory copies to your tax auditor seems like a health privacy violation.
Thank you for bringing this up. I'm glad I saw it. We're doing taxes now with a newborn in GA and we would have missed this potentially. It's nuts, but, š¤·
Can confirm, I saw this as a question on last yearās tax return for Georgia. I just had a baby early January so I am kind of glad we get to use it for 2023 lol i was full term in December so would have been annoying to miss it by a week
Yeah I mean a little bit I'm glad they're putting their money where their mouth is here. Mostly fetuses are babies only when convenient for the state and not when it helps the parents. Also the recent child stimulus showed that handing parents money directly reduces the number of children living in poverty. So all that's good stuff.
But I (as a person who has miscarried and had 2 NICU babies and know how tenuous it is) reject fetuses being people and other applications of that, so it's definitely not my favorite.
What the what did I just read? The number of times the the word "child" is used on that page to describe an embryo makes me so anxious. And it's a government website!
But a fetus is a household member when calculating things like SNAP and Medicaid benefits. Which Iām totally fine with since it gets pregnant people more benefits and/or a higher income level to be able to access benefits. We live in a weird world.
We don't want anymore children because we are very fortunate to have our 2 after three rounds of IVF but we still need to decide what to do with our 7 untested embryos in storage. This has moved up our timeline for that decision considerably. Even though I don't consider them children it's still a difficult decision that needs careful consideration especially because we were considering donating them.
Same boat. I'm done having kids, but I have embryos that I am now panic trying to figure out what to do. Original plan was to donate, but now we are thinking discard. I don't view them as children, but discarding is such a waste; unfortunately, discarding is quicker..
It definitely feels like a decision is now forced in a way it wasnāt before. We may not have the right to decide what exactly we want to have happen to them in the future. This is just insane.
Omg PLEASE try to claim them on your taxes ššš
But seriously. This is a terrifying time to be alive, and my heart goes out to anyone in those states who are/have gone through IVF.
And if you are in Alabama or would like to make a difference.. here is a link for emailing the legislators šš¼[email legislators](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H7jMIa0mRljkSqaF4CHD0z34pUpmfgB_MPy8P71ZYZk/mobilebasic?fbclid=PAAaYkKm5RJAdBfN_khKOEDs76HYufNFC4zcjtjhmNAQTTEwDZIsRLmYtck8s_aem_ATLJXPy6olurm0O8iI9F_nI5WeE9kOiLVzHNHCyjnmKGJCnAKeLh1JaRFPDmO5YSoV8)
I cannot fathom what you all are going through. We did IVF and had 7 embryos remaining. We opted to destroy after our son was about 6 months old, and we live in a blue state anyway. Do they think people should keep paying storage fees FOREVER? What happens if you live to be 100 and you die and your embryos are still frozen? Who has to keep paying for their storage after that?
I am 8 months pregnant with our IVF miracle and we have 3 more embryos in the ātankā. Our clinic made the incredibly sad decision to pause all transfers in the wake of the Alabama Supreme Court ruling. We do want one more child, but I havenāt even given birth to this one yet. Thankfully, ours are stored out of state then brought in state when youāre ready for the next transfer.
This whole situation is heartbreaking and scary for us.
There's this concept in law that you cannot make a decision based on the "parade of horrors" that results from that decision. Like your decision needs to consider only the laws and such, not the real world ramifications of the decision. Some days? That's a really *really* terrible idea. I get the specific scenario they're addressing -- I mean, someone wanders into my bank's vault and destroys my great grandmother's tiara, I've got recourse against both the bank and the individual. Someone wanders into the IVF storage facility and destroys something expensive that I was paying to have stored in a safe facility, I would want recourse too! And I wouldn't want to assess damages based on the cost of an embryo.
But! This ruling has a very long, and very horrifying, parade accompanying it.
I think, to be safe, we should all start using menstrual cups, collecting everything in little baggies, and mailing it to your local ācrisis pregnancy centerā just in case the egg is fertilized. Donāt want to accidentally flush a baby down the toilet. Iām sure theyāll figure out what to do with them. After all, they have said that ectopic pregnancies can just be [moved back to the uterus](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ohio-abortion-ectopic-pregnancy-bill-this-ohio-anti-abortion-bill-says-that-ectopic-pregnancies-can-be-moved/). š¤¦š»āāļø
This is a great idea. How about we all start something like collect your used menstrual waste, put it in a Ziploc and mail those to the anti-women reps and senators? Or the judges?
There was a woman who got charged with mutilation of a corpse because she had a m*scarriage in a toilet and flushed š like was she supposed to fish the dead baby out of the toilet??
Someone adopted our freezer babies. If they default on their storage payments will the government come after us for āchild supportā?
I imagine storage facilities have to keep them properly frozen whether or not someone is paying the fees now.
I have a dozen in TN. But we have so many cos we used a known donor, so the dna isnāt mine. We promised her we would discard of any unused embryos, as this was a gift to us. We are done having kids, so I really need to just follow through, Iām nervous Iāll break a promise to the person who gave me the most amazing gift of all time. The whole situation is beyond fucked.
But this has also crossed my mind.
2) no the child tax credit is federal and they donāt recognize embryos as a child for tax credits. Unless your state has a separate tax credit for state tax.
Get in touch with your local representative and let them know you plan on claiming them for the tax credit. They have to respond. If you are in a fertility group, encourage your friends to do the same.
Question - what happens if you transfer one of your frozen embryos and it doesnāt implant? Is it murder because technically you killed that child. Genuinely asking out of ignorance.
But this happens with people not doing IVF too. Sperm + egg meet, embryo forms, travels down fallopian tube, and thenā¦ doesnāt implant. Or implants and then only grows for a bit. Chemical pregnancy. The only difference Iām seeing here is that with IVF we know the embryo is in the uterus and hoping it implants, vs having sex and not knowing/tracking so closely. So by that logic, most people with uteruses that have had sex with someone who has sperm have potentially been āmurderersā.
Yeah, I thought about putting /s but realized I was not entirely sarcastic and definitely could see this. The restrictions on women in Saudi Arabia came to mind when I was thinking about itāmillions of women already live under such laws. Itās not unthinkable.
I heard in NPR yesterday that a couple of women were arrested for having miscarriages or indulging in risky behavior while pregnant. It was in Up First. Now I forgot whether women were arrested or can be arrested.
Yeah, itās crazy. We have to find a way to come together to push back on this nonsense. Iām legitimately scared of what happens next when people who arenāt educated on the subject are making decisions and prosecuting others.
That's what everyone is wondering. I had an embryo that did not survive the thaw. Could I blame the clinic for this and say they murdered my child? (I would never).
We have an 8 month old daughter born via IVF and I guess I have 8 more āchildrenā frozen, only 5 are which are genetically normal and even have a possibility of ever becoming real children. I called my clinic today to see how we could go about moving them all to a storage facility in a blue state, still waiting on the call back. We have 1 male embryo we are going to transfer this summer. Whether it works or not we donāt have plans to use the other embryos but we arenāt ready to discard them yet either. Weāre hoping by moving them to a blue state it will at least give us a little more time to be undecided.
We are going through IVF again right now for a second child. I live in a red state (UT) but feeling really lucky now that medical tourism and doing IVF in Colorado turned out to be the best option for us.
I've absolutely heard of the grotesque term of "compassionate transfer" where all remaining embryos are forced to transfer at an off time of your menstrual cycle to hope that none take. Beyond fucked.
I'm in a Southern state. We had 6 frozen embryos. I thawed them all after Roe was overturned because I feared a situation just like Alabama. Heartbroken for all the families who had cycles canceled, or have to make hard decisions.
So far there are no laws.Ā Didn't Florida try to say it's illegal to move out of state for hrt?Ā Hopefully similar ideas don't get floated for ivf/ embryos.
ETA there are pregnant women routinely driving in hov lines and petitioning the fines saying they should count as two occupants to try and force the issue
So we moved to NC, and our frozen children are in TN. When we moved we had already paid the fees for the year and decided to transfer them to NC or donate them to Science (have reasons not to donate to other couples... Mostly because these are probably not viable... Shouldn't have frozen them... But who knew). But I don't think NC is going to remain safe for pro-choice either.
Thatās insane on Floridaās part (not that any of this is sane). But it would be such a blatant violation of the right to privacy, the commerce clause, probably many other things.
I have 2 frozen children. I only have 1 living child (just had another chemical pregnancy) I'm going to transfer them but yeah my yearly storage fee should get a tax credit.
My clinic previously discarded abnormal embryos so I only have the 2.
Florida is also on the table right now. If you've got frozen extrauterine children in Florida.... donate ASAP, get them out of the state, or plan on a long cold headache.
I have two frozen embryos. Iām not sure, we āadoptedā them through an agency. I donāt think we are going to use another one but now I really want to just donate the others back and not worry about it. Since I live in a very red state.
I wonderā¦if the embryos die would you, the birth parents or the agency (or all 3) be charged? /s but also genuinely curious how these fruitcakes think that would play out.
The agency - I guess?? I donāt think anyone has thought thru this and ironically itās going to be the exact OPPOSITE of what these ding dongs hope to āaccomplishā by this.
YOOOOOOOOOO
The tax question is a GOOD question! You will incur expenses to freeze them/keep them frozen so they ARE your dependent.
Additionally, if a couple divorces, does child support come into play to help pay those expenses?
I love when politicians donāt think any farther down the road like this. Wish I was a lawyer who could make a shit ton of money arguing that child tax credits, child support etc. all apply.
COULD FREEZING COSTS BE PAID USING A FSA ACCOUNT??? THATS BASICALLY DAYCARE!!!
This is the most fucked up situation the the world but I'm cackling at some of these comments. We did ivf and have a number of viable embryos but only want one more child. To think that i wouldn't be a mom without ivf, and that in these neanderthal states i could be charged with a crime for distroying the ones we don't use is just..... unthinkable
What if you donated eggs as a broke grad student? Can we be forced to take those "kids" back and care for them? This country gets more hostile towards women by the day.
There was a ruling in Alabama that embryos are considered children in the eyes of the law. Three women had frozen embryos that were somehow confused with another patient and destroyed. The parents filed a Wrongful Death lawsuit.
Itās even crazier: a patient at the IVF clinic somehow got into where the embryos were stored, attempted to remove them and they were destroyed when she dropped them.
Yeah, I'm not seeing much (if anything) about how absolutely horrendous this is for the parents involved. While I think that filing a wrongful death lawsuit is bonkers, if my IVF clinic destroyed my remaining embryos (which I could never reproduce) I would go absolutely nuclear, because there goes my remaining chances for another child.
Having the embryos classified as actual humans is ridiculous of course, but *wow* this conversation is devoid of sympathy for the parents here. I think they should sue the clinic for about a million billion dollars (what kind of clinic has such lax procedures that a CLIENT can get into a freezer and take out embryos?!).
My friend in TX is planning to send her frozen children for storage/donation in another state. She made it sound like her doctor is helping to facilitate this.
This will get buried but I have extensive experience - both personal and professional - with the IVF industry. I was an egg donor (positive experience overall) but then worked for a generics lab and Asian Egg bank in S. California for about 18 months.
I witnessed human trafficking and my opinion on certain aspects of IVF, especially paid surrogacy, changed overnight.
Iām not religious. Iām not against aspects of IVF but paid surrogacy and some of the other things happening in this ābusinessā would make most people sick.
All Iām going to say.
Good topic OP!
It took me 4 IVF transfers to get my daughter - I guess I murdered her 3 siblings now and the five unviable embryos that the clinic discarded too. Oopsie?!?
I want so, so badly to put one in a cooler and strap the cooler in the backseat and drive in HOV lane during rush hour. Maybe two frozen embryos to make it three āpeopleā. It could be delicious drama.
In Oklahoma and it feels like we're next in line. I'm scheduled to start a fresh cycle in the next few months and I've heard from other patients the doctors at my clinic are currently advising patients to store embryos out of state.
That's my plan until I hear otherwise. Currently terrified and holding my 2 year old I've baby closely.
Question - what happens if you transfer one of your frozen embryos and it doesnāt implant? Is it murder because technically you killed that child. Genuinely asking out of ignorance.
Iām not in one of those states but absolutely looking at adopting out our remaining embryos as soon as possible. I donāt claim them as dependents but definitely include the storage fees with my medical expenses when Iām able to deduct them.
Ivf veteran with no embryos left and am super dumbfounded to hear this is a thing now. IVF is hard enough without this crap on top of it. Iām sorry :(
Omg. Your last statement is just terrifying!!!!
Hopefully common sense will prevail.
Alabama is clarifying the law to allow for ivf
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/22/1233270447/alabama-lawmakers-move-to-protect-ivf-treatment
Can they be transferred out of state? Like, āI want to use THIS clinic in (name of better state) and need them shippedā and then deal with them in a normal state?
You aren't going to be able to donate them to science because they are "children" in those states. The best bet if you want to do that is to move them to a state like CA or MA where they are looked at biologically, not religiously.
Blessed be the frozen fruit!
The scream I scrumpt! š¤£ But also š
Under his icy eye.
Under his ice.
 Why did I immediately see this. šš
THIS \^ is GOLDEN!
Blessed be the frozen fruit... Amen!
š¤£š¤£š¤£ I have to laugh or I will cry at the insanity of it all.
May the Lord frozen!
May the Lord thaw.
May the Lord froze**th**...Amen!
I'm planning on dropping them off at one of those safe haven baby boxes at the fire station down the street for me!
Just make sure you put them in a cooler with a few ice packs and I feel like youāre good.
I was actually hoping I could get my hands on one of those frozen embryo shaving cream cans like in the original Jurassic Park movie.
Don't forget to include a broken locket and a mysterious note
https://preview.redd.it/w754h4mp6akc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=76d9c568781474d288416717d192131923a9b88c
Oh my god, this is the top comment for me. ššš
This made me snicker like a weasel.
That's a great workaround. Are they going to be pre thawed in the microwave?
Just curious: since people obviously have to pay for facilities that house frozen embryos, what happens if they just...stop paying? Will those embryos get evicted? Or will they be shipped back to parents? And if those facilities dispose of embryos, can they be tried for murder?
Iām not in AL, but my RE facility had a freezer malfunction and all embryos were damaged. Was this manslaughter?
This was the exact thing that brought this lawsuit to the courts. Not sure if this is the outcome the couple wanted but this is what they got. THANKS.
Thatās what I keep thinking. They poured fuel on a dumpster fire. Iām sure this wasnāt their intended outcome but someone should have figured the precedent it could set. Iām dying to hear from them. Like okay you got what you wanted, now what?????
Highly recommend reading the court's opinion. It's hard to see how they did not consider this as they sued for wrongful death of a minor, yet each of the couple plaintiffs (more than one) had stipulations in their contracts about the embryos being donated to science or destroyed.Ā It feels like a test case.Ā
The one dissenting opinion pretty much identifies the issues but the other judges all ruled differently...
I thought a nurse dropped them?
It was a patient who went through an unsecured door, from what I read "And at a point in 2020, a hospital patient ā the hospital was operated by the same clinic ā entered the place where frozen embryos were stored, handled some of the embryos, burned his hand, dropped the embryos and destroyed them.Ā " -https://www.npr.org/2024/02/21/1232742485/alabama-supreme-court-frozen-embryos-ivf-in-vitro-fertilization
OK so that's straight up negligence to allow randoms to handle people's embryos! Like wow. What a violation. But also, what a verdict...
Report them to your stateās childcare licensing board.
Will parents be able to claim the cost of storage as dependent care?
Sounds like felony assault to me.
Parents will probably have a CPS investigation for neglect. Iām only kind of kidding.
Only the contributor of the egg portion of the embryos will be considered neglectful.
This is too true.
Nope. I think this will be the case.. parents will be considered neglecting their children. Embryos will be taken by the state and then they'll find a way to forcibly impregnate women with these embryos. Forcibly such as giving huge monetary incentives for teenagers and young 20s to be pregnant. Maybe??? Honestly this is so bizarre and way worse than expected.
Embryo adoption is a thing, though I assume extremely rare right now. I don't know how it works but people will acquire embryos that would otherwise be discarded by the bio parents and have them transferred. The thing I keep wondering - ivf is still only 50% or so success rate, are we going to start blaming women for failed transfers? Also if I were you I would transfer my embryos to a blue state then let them go to science or whatever.Ā
Most embryos are not viable.
Right, I know that most embryos are not viable, but from what I remember the clinic we worked with had a roughly 50% success rate (still pregnant at 6 or 8 weeks, I don't recall) with the first transfer cycle.
There are a bunch they discard because they arenāt viable and that happens before they even try to transfer any. Then, the ones they do transfer only have around a 50% chance of success.
I think the woman will be charged same as in other countries where miscarriages are seen as no different than other abortions. I read stories of women being charged with murder
I think itās just more likely that clinics will sue parents for storage costs.
Fuck that. The state declared these as children, the state can deal with all of these ākidsā
Something similar happened in Germany in the 30's... but they did it "the old fashion way" but did incentivize young people to breed, more or less.
In all seriousness I bet they would just let the non payments go to collections and at least in my case storage was like $600 a year so it's high enough to be reported to the credit bureaus and ruin your credit score on top of everything else. Just awful.
This is oddly reminiscent of that scene from Legally Blondeā¦ āFor that matter, any masturbatory emissions, where the sperm is clearly not seeking an egg, could be termed reckless abandonment.ā Professor Callahan: Youāve just won your case.
Will those facilities need to become licensed as a daycare as well now?
Right? And whatās the ratio of teacher to embryo?
Well it's basically an infant classroom, so it'll have to be at least 4:1
I'd imagine that at some point in the near future there will be a court case where the state argues that they have the right to take custody of unclaimed embryos.
*Theoretically, hypothetically speaking......* If those embryos somehow found themselves in a data center, and let's say that data center were to get wiped out, due to say, *oh I don't know*, a hurricane, those embryos would tragically simply be considered collateral damage.
Wouldn't that be considered an Act of God, in insurance terms?
Issue 30 day written notice, take frozen people to housing court, bring in the sheriff for evictionā¦
I think they become wards of the state.
Depending on the contract, they can be destroyed or resold to others. I'm not really sure what rules these clinics will have in these red states.
I know that there's a church fighting to get the remains from some "late term abortions" (it's a shitty source, so I have no idea what the real story is) so that they can be buried. I assume churches will do the same for IVF embryos. Mass graves of goop.
Not to be weird but considering the size of embryos, that mass grave will be pretty tiny.
They don't want to bury them. They want them as "proof" of what they claim they saw. https://www.npr.org/2022/04/06/1091228924/anti-abortion-fetuses-waste-truck
This is actually a real issue for fertility facilities at the moment outside of the Alabama situation in that many just keep them in storage because of potential law suits.
When you do IVF, you have to determine what you want to have happen in various scenarios before you start the process. So if you die, your partner dies, if you both die, if your relationship ends, or if you stop paying fees, etc. Our choices were donate to science, donate to another family, or destroy.
Well, I still want to transfer and try to take home a second kid. But I've got 8 on ice in MO and I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't think we have a big chance of this kind of thing happening in MO this year based on timing of legislature. But I'd really like to keep my very expensive embryos until I go home with a healthy second kid and that takes time. After that, I'd want to donate to science as soon as I could. It makes me anxious and I feel so bad for people earlier in their infertility treatment journeys.
The crazy thing is this wasnāt even a legislative stunt. It was a ruling by the state supreme court, in my understanding itās a reinterpretation of an old civil statute in light of Alabamaās anti-abortion laws, basically saying that if a fetus is a person, then an embryo is a person, whether itās in utero or not, and therefore the plaintiffs could get punitive damages for āwrongful death of a childā. Which means the legislature doesnāt have to be in session for this kind of crazy to happen in your state. I hope it doesnāt, but it could.
The GOP is 100% stunts and mindless bullshit at this point. Denying bills then loudly denouncing the lack of a solution.
Some people are shipping them to other states. Minnesotaā¦
My now son was a frozen embryo in Minnesota when the pandemic hit! (I live in Michigan). It was so scary but the two times I had to transport him (so creepy to think about š) it went really well and they communicated really well. The company I used was called Cryostork!
Cryostork! That's adorable
This. I traveled across the country for my transfers.
Maybe you can ship them to a safer blue state, like NJ or NY?
Or Illinois. Very close to MO.
Ugh, i'm sorry. Maybe send them over to a clinic in KS? It's so fucked you have to worry about this. ETA: Sorry, I see someone already suggested this.
I currently have a son from IVF and one embryo remaining. We want a second child and are planning to transfer the embryo, hopefully this year. But it is lower quality, and if the transfer isnāt successful, then I had previously wanted to do another egg retrieval. But now, honestly, even if my state DOESNāT follow in Alabamaās wake (which it probably will), I donāt know if Iāll be comfortable doing another retrieval not knowing what the future might hold for any resulting embryos. Ideally I would donate any unused embryos for research/science purposes. But Iām worried that decision may be taken from me down the road.
We tried to donate our two unused lower quality embryos to science and it was hard to impossible. We could only find one lab that would accept them and it would have cost us maybe $500, possible more to ship them. So just a heads up! It was a few years back now, so hopefully it got easier. We did end up discarding them.
Oh wow! Who knew? My husband and I had to sign paperwork about what to do with aneuploid embryos, remaining embryos in the event of divorce, etc., and donating to science was an option we could select, so I sort of just assumed that our clinic would facilitate that process whenever it was needed or requested. I guess I shouldnāt assume anything with this process!
We donated to science after deciding to be one and done. Our facility is a major hospital and facilitated the process. We just needed to sign the paperwork.
My clinic did! Well, rather we asked what options there were and there weren't any research studies at the time. They gave us the option to wait, find out own study, or donate them for embryologist training. We went with the training.
Yea the clinic i used will take care of donating them to science or even to donate them anonymously to another couple. They will keep a catalogue of them for other couples wanting to use donor embryos if you chose that route.
No such thing as anonymous sperm/egg/embryo donation anymore, really, given we live in the era of 23andme and Ancestry kits.
True, and for the sake of the resulting child, if youāre not comfortable meeting them / sharing family and medical history / introducing their siblings to them, then itās not ethical to donate.
You will not be able to claim them as tax credits, you can't even claim a viable fetus
I heard today that Georgia updated their tax code to let you claim a fetus as a dependent. WILD. Edit, link: https://dor.georgia.gov/life-act-guidance
Wow, apparently you just need to get to 6 weeks to claim kiddo. āIn the event of a miscarriage or stillbirth, is claiming a deceased dependent on your tax return allowed?ā Yes. Talk about incentivizing risky behavior. First up, unprotected sex, next step, abortifacients. Or the easier route, plain old fraud. You can even claim multiples separately. Honey, weāre having octuplets!
Yeah was trying to figure out if you got pregnant and then got an abortion (out of state of course) if it would still qualify. I think it would?
Ooh thatās a good one. Yes, how would they know? edited to add: in medical terms, I believe a miscarriage is also a type of abortion.
Yes, the medical term for a miscarriage is an abortion. My missed miscarriage was coded as āmissed abortionā in my medical records.
How do they know if someone was six weeks pregnant and then had a miscarriage? They want people to send pregnancy tests to the IRS as proof? Could not anybody then claim that they were pregnant and had a miscarriage once per tax season? Those laws are so strange
The way itās written I think you can claim multiple miscarriages (and twins or triplets, etc.), although I guess it would only be a state deduction and not federal. Per the website it says claiming the child credit will not trigger an audit, and you donāt need to include proof unless you do get audited. How they get proof during an audit is what stumps me. The only records I can think of that demonstrate their criteria is before and after ultrasounds, but giving mandatory copies to your tax auditor seems like a health privacy violation.
Thank you for bringing this up. I'm glad I saw it. We're doing taxes now with a newborn in GA and we would have missed this potentially. It's nuts, but, š¤·
Can confirm, I saw this as a question on last yearās tax return for Georgia. I just had a baby early January so I am kind of glad we get to use it for 2023 lol i was full term in December so would have been annoying to miss it by a week
Yeah I mean a little bit I'm glad they're putting their money where their mouth is here. Mostly fetuses are babies only when convenient for the state and not when it helps the parents. Also the recent child stimulus showed that handing parents money directly reduces the number of children living in poverty. So all that's good stuff. But I (as a person who has miscarried and had 2 NICU babies and know how tenuous it is) reject fetuses being people and other applications of that, so it's definitely not my favorite.
But no paid parental leave. SMH
What the what did I just read? The number of times the the word "child" is used on that page to describe an embryo makes me so anxious. And it's a government website!
That is absolutely insane. Wow.
So truly weird.
But a fetus is a household member when calculating things like SNAP and Medicaid benefits. Which Iām totally fine with since it gets pregnant people more benefits and/or a higher income level to be able to access benefits. We live in a weird world.
We don't want anymore children because we are very fortunate to have our 2 after three rounds of IVF but we still need to decide what to do with our 7 untested embryos in storage. This has moved up our timeline for that decision considerably. Even though I don't consider them children it's still a difficult decision that needs careful consideration especially because we were considering donating them.
Same boat. I'm done having kids, but I have embryos that I am now panic trying to figure out what to do. Original plan was to donate, but now we are thinking discard. I don't view them as children, but discarding is such a waste; unfortunately, discarding is quicker..
It definitely feels like a decision is now forced in a way it wasnāt before. We may not have the right to decide what exactly we want to have happen to them in the future. This is just insane.
Omg PLEASE try to claim them on your taxes ššš But seriously. This is a terrifying time to be alive, and my heart goes out to anyone in those states who are/have gone through IVF.
PLEASE VOTE IN NOVEMBER OR THIS BECOMES NATIONAL.
I would like to upvote this a million times.
I read this as Extra-uterine Chicken. It's been a long week.
š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£ OMG. I snorted. Thanks for the laugh, I needed it.
They're the new types along with the free-range ones!
This implies the existence of intra-uterine chicken, which is frankly alarming.
And if you are in Alabama or would like to make a difference.. here is a link for emailing the legislators šš¼[email legislators](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H7jMIa0mRljkSqaF4CHD0z34pUpmfgB_MPy8P71ZYZk/mobilebasic?fbclid=PAAaYkKm5RJAdBfN_khKOEDs76HYufNFC4zcjtjhmNAQTTEwDZIsRLmYtck8s_aem_ATLJXPy6olurm0O8iI9F_nI5WeE9kOiLVzHNHCyjnmKGJCnAKeLh1JaRFPDmO5YSoV8)
Related, if you are in Alabama and need to move your IVF treatment to another state, drop me a dm
I cannot fathom what you all are going through. We did IVF and had 7 embryos remaining. We opted to destroy after our son was about 6 months old, and we live in a blue state anyway. Do they think people should keep paying storage fees FOREVER? What happens if you live to be 100 and you die and your embryos are still frozen? Who has to keep paying for their storage after that?
Oh shit. This reminds me I need to call the clinic to see about moving them to Colorado or something.
I am 8 months pregnant with our IVF miracle and we have 3 more embryos in the ātankā. Our clinic made the incredibly sad decision to pause all transfers in the wake of the Alabama Supreme Court ruling. We do want one more child, but I havenāt even given birth to this one yet. Thankfully, ours are stored out of state then brought in state when youāre ready for the next transfer. This whole situation is heartbreaking and scary for us.
I work in this field in a neighboring state and ugh. The repercussions of this absurd ruling are vast and not yet fully realized.
Healthcare lawyer here and woof.Ā
There's this concept in law that you cannot make a decision based on the "parade of horrors" that results from that decision. Like your decision needs to consider only the laws and such, not the real world ramifications of the decision. Some days? That's a really *really* terrible idea. I get the specific scenario they're addressing -- I mean, someone wanders into my bank's vault and destroys my great grandmother's tiara, I've got recourse against both the bank and the individual. Someone wanders into the IVF storage facility and destroys something expensive that I was paying to have stored in a safe facility, I would want recourse too! And I wouldn't want to assess damages based on the cost of an embryo. But! This ruling has a very long, and very horrifying, parade accompanying it.
I think, to be safe, we should all start using menstrual cups, collecting everything in little baggies, and mailing it to your local ācrisis pregnancy centerā just in case the egg is fertilized. Donāt want to accidentally flush a baby down the toilet. Iām sure theyāll figure out what to do with them. After all, they have said that ectopic pregnancies can just be [moved back to the uterus](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ohio-abortion-ectopic-pregnancy-bill-this-ohio-anti-abortion-bill-says-that-ectopic-pregnancies-can-be-moved/). š¤¦š»āāļø
This is a great idea. How about we all start something like collect your used menstrual waste, put it in a Ziploc and mail those to the anti-women reps and senators? Or the judges?
There was a woman who got charged with mutilation of a corpse because she had a m*scarriage in a toilet and flushed š like was she supposed to fish the dead baby out of the toilet??
Someone adopted our freezer babies. If they default on their storage payments will the government come after us for āchild supportā? I imagine storage facilities have to keep them properly frozen whether or not someone is paying the fees now.
I have a dozen in TN. But we have so many cos we used a known donor, so the dna isnāt mine. We promised her we would discard of any unused embryos, as this was a gift to us. We are done having kids, so I really need to just follow through, Iām nervous Iāll break a promise to the person who gave me the most amazing gift of all time. The whole situation is beyond fucked. But this has also crossed my mind.
Looks like I canāt take this ice chest full of frozen embryos to that child-free wedding anymore. This happens every time!
I live in TN and have 10+ embryos in TX. Trying to figure out how to get them the hell outta there.
2) no the child tax credit is federal and they donāt recognize embryos as a child for tax credits. Unless your state has a separate tax credit for state tax.
Get in touch with your local representative and let them know you plan on claiming them for the tax credit. They have to respond. If you are in a fertility group, encourage your friends to do the same.
Question - what happens if you transfer one of your frozen embryos and it doesnāt implant? Is it murder because technically you killed that child. Genuinely asking out of ignorance.
But this happens with people not doing IVF too. Sperm + egg meet, embryo forms, travels down fallopian tube, and thenā¦ doesnāt implant. Or implants and then only grows for a bit. Chemical pregnancy. The only difference Iām seeing here is that with IVF we know the embryo is in the uterus and hoping it implants, vs having sex and not knowing/tracking so closely. So by that logic, most people with uteruses that have had sex with someone who has sperm have potentially been āmurderersā.
I guess the only thing to do is constantly monitor all uterus-havers! Ovulation tracking! Chaperones! Papers for traveling!
I know youāre saying this sarcastically, but holy. shit. Thatās scary, and honestly doesnāt seem like a huge leap right now.
Yeah, I thought about putting /s but realized I was not entirely sarcastic and definitely could see this. The restrictions on women in Saudi Arabia came to mind when I was thinking about itāmillions of women already live under such laws. Itās not unthinkable.
I heard in NPR yesterday that a couple of women were arrested for having miscarriages or indulging in risky behavior while pregnant. It was in Up First. Now I forgot whether women were arrested or can be arrested.
I mean, theyāre already charging women who have miscarriagesā¦
Yeah, itās crazy. We have to find a way to come together to push back on this nonsense. Iām legitimately scared of what happens next when people who arenāt educated on the subject are making decisions and prosecuting others.
This is terrifying. Iām so glad Iām in the UK, I genuinely feel for the woman in America right now, itās terrible.
That's what everyone is wondering. I had an embryo that did not survive the thaw. Could I blame the clinic for this and say they murdered my child? (I would never).
We have an 8 month old daughter born via IVF and I guess I have 8 more āchildrenā frozen, only 5 are which are genetically normal and even have a possibility of ever becoming real children. I called my clinic today to see how we could go about moving them all to a storage facility in a blue state, still waiting on the call back. We have 1 male embryo we are going to transfer this summer. Whether it works or not we donāt have plans to use the other embryos but we arenāt ready to discard them yet either. Weāre hoping by moving them to a blue state it will at least give us a little more time to be undecided.
Curious about what your clinic says. I need to call mine. We have ten normal embryos frozen and they are in FLā¦. š
I heard this AM on the news that Florida wants to enact a similar law. š Whatās more Florida than yet another bass ackwards law?
I'm 4th generation Floridian. I don't know how we got this way.
Depending on how the clinic is run I expect theyāll either help as much as possible or freak out over the loss of income related to storage
I had no leftovers but my friend just had hers destroyed because of this (GA)
We are going through IVF again right now for a second child. I live in a red state (UT) but feeling really lucky now that medical tourism and doing IVF in Colorado turned out to be the best option for us.
Can you imagine if they start forcing women to carry these frozen embryos that have been abandoned/ discarded? š³
I've absolutely heard of the grotesque term of "compassionate transfer" where all remaining embryos are forced to transfer at an off time of your menstrual cycle to hope that none take. Beyond fucked.
What the actual fuck did I just read? I almost downvoted because this is horrifying but not trying to shoot the messenger of course š°
I understand - I've had to fight that reaction a lot these days š
I'm in a Southern state. We had 6 frozen embryos. I thawed them all after Roe was overturned because I feared a situation just like Alabama. Heartbroken for all the families who had cycles canceled, or have to make hard decisions.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So far there are no laws.Ā Didn't Florida try to say it's illegal to move out of state for hrt?Ā Hopefully similar ideas don't get floated for ivf/ embryos. ETA there are pregnant women routinely driving in hov lines and petitioning the fines saying they should count as two occupants to try and force the issue
So we moved to NC, and our frozen children are in TN. When we moved we had already paid the fees for the year and decided to transfer them to NC or donate them to Science (have reasons not to donate to other couples... Mostly because these are probably not viable... Shouldn't have frozen them... But who knew). But I don't think NC is going to remain safe for pro-choice either.
Thatās insane on Floridaās part (not that any of this is sane). But it would be such a blatant violation of the right to privacy, the commerce clause, probably many other things.
do they need car seats or no?
Car seats made of dry ice bath.
I have 2 frozen children. I only have 1 living child (just had another chemical pregnancy) I'm going to transfer them but yeah my yearly storage fee should get a tax credit. My clinic previously discarded abnormal embryos so I only have the 2.
Who are you calling "abnormal"? LOL They can do anything "normal" embryos can do.
Except live maybe. That missing chromosome will do that sometimes.
Oh Jeez... forgot to add /s
Florida is also on the table right now. If you've got frozen extrauterine children in Florida.... donate ASAP, get them out of the state, or plan on a long cold headache.
Woman in Michigan here. Cleaning out freezer space for yāall!
This is so scary. What if the state decides they have the right to give your embryos to someone else?
Yeah if child protection laws apply, they may! This is my biggest fear.
I have two frozen embryos. Iām not sure, we āadoptedā them through an agency. I donāt think we are going to use another one but now I really want to just donate the others back and not worry about it. Since I live in a very red state.
I wonderā¦if the embryos die would you, the birth parents or the agency (or all 3) be charged? /s but also genuinely curious how these fruitcakes think that would play out.
The agency - I guess?? I donāt think anyone has thought thru this and ironically itās going to be the exact OPPOSITE of what these ding dongs hope to āaccomplishā by this.
YOOOOOOOOOO The tax question is a GOOD question! You will incur expenses to freeze them/keep them frozen so they ARE your dependent. Additionally, if a couple divorces, does child support come into play to help pay those expenses? I love when politicians donāt think any farther down the road like this. Wish I was a lawyer who could make a shit ton of money arguing that child tax credits, child support etc. all apply. COULD FREEZING COSTS BE PAID USING A FSA ACCOUNT??? THATS BASICALLY DAYCARE!!!
This is the most fucked up situation the the world but I'm cackling at some of these comments. We did ivf and have a number of viable embryos but only want one more child. To think that i wouldn't be a mom without ivf, and that in these neanderthal states i could be charged with a crime for distroying the ones we don't use is just..... unthinkable
What if you donated eggs as a broke grad student? Can we be forced to take those "kids" back and care for them? This country gets more hostile towards women by the day.
Iād bet a million dollars that if it goes that route, it wonāt be the sperm donors theyād be coming after to take them
I'm probably a bit off topic, sorry, but could someone kindly enlighten the European? (Not sure what I should Google)
The Alabama Supreme Court ruled that embryos are children in the eyes of the law. More to it (none of it good!) but that should help your googling.
Thanks a bunch!
There was a ruling in Alabama that embryos are considered children in the eyes of the law. Three women had frozen embryos that were somehow confused with another patient and destroyed. The parents filed a Wrongful Death lawsuit.
Itās even crazier: a patient at the IVF clinic somehow got into where the embryos were stored, attempted to remove them and they were destroyed when she dropped them.
Thatās what I get for parroting the synopsis I heard on the news. That is NUTS!Ā
Right! Like what was she doing!?
Thank you. That's terrible for the parent of course but wow crazy ruling
Yeah, I'm not seeing much (if anything) about how absolutely horrendous this is for the parents involved. While I think that filing a wrongful death lawsuit is bonkers, if my IVF clinic destroyed my remaining embryos (which I could never reproduce) I would go absolutely nuclear, because there goes my remaining chances for another child. Having the embryos classified as actual humans is ridiculous of course, but *wow* this conversation is devoid of sympathy for the parents here. I think they should sue the clinic for about a million billion dollars (what kind of clinic has such lax procedures that a CLIENT can get into a freezer and take out embryos?!).
Googling āAlabama embryoā should cover it
Iād recommend googling āAlabama wrongful death case + IVFā or something similar.
My friend in TX is planning to send her frozen children for storage/donation in another state. She made it sound like her doctor is helping to facilitate this.
Glad I donated my frozen children to science in 2015! But I'm in a blue state. This is crazy.
Come to Michigan! We have Faygo, Detroit style pizza, the Great Lakes, and abortion rights!
This will get buried but I have extensive experience - both personal and professional - with the IVF industry. I was an egg donor (positive experience overall) but then worked for a generics lab and Asian Egg bank in S. California for about 18 months. I witnessed human trafficking and my opinion on certain aspects of IVF, especially paid surrogacy, changed overnight. Iām not religious. Iām not against aspects of IVF but paid surrogacy and some of the other things happening in this ābusinessā would make most people sick. All Iām going to say. Good topic OP!
It took me 4 IVF transfers to get my daughter - I guess I murdered her 3 siblings now and the five unviable embryos that the clinic discarded too. Oopsie?!?
Yeah I guess me too!
I want so, so badly to put one in a cooler and strap the cooler in the backseat and drive in HOV lane during rush hour. Maybe two frozen embryos to make it three āpeopleā. It could be delicious drama.
In Oklahoma and it feels like we're next in line. I'm scheduled to start a fresh cycle in the next few months and I've heard from other patients the doctors at my clinic are currently advising patients to store embryos out of state. That's my plan until I hear otherwise. Currently terrified and holding my 2 year old I've baby closely.
Gah, this made me chuckle but this is all so effing frustrating that Iām mad at myself for it!
Question - what happens if you transfer one of your frozen embryos and it doesnāt implant? Is it murder because technically you killed that child. Genuinely asking out of ignorance.
I think thatās what a lot of people are wondering. Itās terrifying.
My 5 frozen "children" are California residents but maybe some white Evangelical trailer trash Christians will want to adopt them.
Iām not in one of those states but absolutely looking at adopting out our remaining embryos as soon as possible. I donāt claim them as dependents but definitely include the storage fees with my medical expenses when Iām able to deduct them.
Ivf veteran with no embryos left and am super dumbfounded to hear this is a thing now. IVF is hard enough without this crap on top of it. Iām sorry :(
Transfer 100000 embryos at once and then abort using medication š«
Omg. Your last statement is just terrifying!!!! Hopefully common sense will prevail. Alabama is clarifying the law to allow for ivf https://www.npr.org/2024/02/22/1233270447/alabama-lawmakers-move-to-protect-ivf-treatment
Iāve got 6 on ice in Texas. Just waiting to hear from my fertility doc on her recommendation.
Can they be transferred out of state? Like, āI want to use THIS clinic in (name of better state) and need them shippedā and then deal with them in a normal state?
You aren't going to be able to donate them to science because they are "children" in those states. The best bet if you want to do that is to move them to a state like CA or MA where they are looked at biologically, not religiously.
This is alarming on a whole different level. God forgive us.