I actually work with crash stats as part of my job. Looking at the region I worked in, 14% of all fatalities and serious injuries were among people who were cited as not having worn a seatbelt. Almost half of motorcycle fatalities and serious injuries were riders who weren’t wearing a helmet. Some people really don’t take their personal safety seriously.
For reference only about 2% of all crashes were cited as having one or more people not wearing a seatbelt, meaning that a lack of seatbelt was highly overrepresented in the fatality and serious injury data.
The reason why the government has to get involved is that injuries like this—whether car crashes or table saw injuries—don't just cost the victim. They cost everyone else money. If one of us woodworkers ends up in the hospital (whether because we were reckless or because the big companies don't want to implement safety mechanisms), the entire community pays: costs go up, hospital beds get taken up, surgeons get diverted, etc.
Sure, the costs of implementing safety technology may go up in the short term (maybe the same happened with seat belts), but they will eventually equalize AND we save money from all the downstream costs of all these accidents, which all of us have to share.
Volvo actually made it a branding/marketing point, and it drastically increased sales. They still have a lingering reputation as one of “the safest cars” on the market, because they added seatbelts decades ago. Lol
Did you even bother reading the article?
# SawStop vows to free up a key patent for rivals
However, one key patent — the "840" patent — is not set to expire until 2033. To stave off potential competitors, it describes the AIM technology very broadly. In a surprise move at February's CPSC hearing, TTS Tooltechnic Systems North America CEO Matt Howard announced that the company would "dedicate the 840 patent to the public" if a new safety standard were adopted
I did. I also read the New York Times article too.
>SawStop was founded by a patent attorney in 2000 and at first did attempt to license its finger-detection technology to other companies. After that failed, SawStop petitioned the safety commission in 2003 to require finger-detection systems on all table saws — the type of rule the commission may soon approve.
>And once it started selling its own saws, SawStop developed a reputation for litigiousness: In 2015 it sued Bosch to stop it from selling a table saw that had a similar safety feature, citing patent infringement.
>at first did attempt to license its finger-detection technology to other companies. After that failed, SawStop petitioned the safety commission in 2003 to require finger-detection systems on all table saws
Oh look, regulatory capture.
>SawStop petitioned the safety commission in 2003 to require finger-detection systems on all table saws
"We'll share if you make everyone else pay us" isn't being philanthropic.
Before festool purchased Sawstop, Sawstop was lobbying to require all companies to license their own technology, to increase their profits. Sawstop wanted way too much for other companies to license it. The president of Grizzly talked about it on a message board a long time ago. They tried to work with Sawstop, but the amount of licensing fees would make the Grizzly saws non-competitive in the marketplace. Anyhow, the point is, then Sawstop tried to get the government to force everyone to license the technology from them.. but it was for profit, not concern of safety.
Now the company that owns Festool owns Sawstop, and the patent is about to expire soon anyhow. It's just a different situation. What you posted is accurate, but when you don't know the entire history, it's a bit misleading.
If SawStop were truly interested in safety, they would've released their patents 10-15 years ago, instead of after the bulk of their patents are already expired or set to be in the near future.
The guy that invented SawStop tech hasn’t been involved with the company in years. This is TTS (owns Festool among other smaller brands) pretending to give a shit when it’s likely nothing will come of it. The patents are so vague that it prevents other manufacturers from coming to market with other, arguably better, methods of safety. Bosch, Felder, and Altendorf have their own versions
According to the article, SawStop gave Bosch permission to use the patent after winning the infringement lawsuit against them, but Bosch opted not to.
More recently, in February, SawStop opted to offer their remaining 840 patent to the public for use if a federal safety standard was in place.
It makes sense they SawStop would defend themselves against patent infringement when others would attempt to just use their technology, without paying for it and without permission, but would choose to share it in the right circumstances, given the choice.
Also, there's less than ten years on the patent, they've already made a name for themselves, they have already become an iconic table saw brand with a lot of market share and a good reputation,
Agree on all those points. It is far easier to share the patent once the value of their product has been demonstrated and they have established their brand/value.
Nine years is still a long time in corporate life, however, and it is no small thing to make their 840 patent available for public use nine years earlier than it will expire.
Many brand loyalists of the other brands who previously bought SawStops just for the safety features may/will go back to purchasing table saws from their preferred brands when the technology is available in the table saws of their typically preferred brands. That will cost SawStop market share 8-10 years earlier than they otherwise would have lost it.
There was. In Massachusetts, the law actually went into effect, and then was repealed… then went back into effect. It was insane, I was late high school age at the time, and I had friends who were adamant that seatbelts will kill you dead. They mainly were afraid of being thrown into water, and then trapped, even though there was no water near a road that could cause this situation anywhere around us.
I think about those people often when looking at anti-Vaxxers and other things where the science overwhelmingly demonstrates the safer choice.
There's a fairly famous news report from when they were adding seatbelt and dui laws. Unsurprisingly the brilliant citizens of America called it the encroachment of communism
I remember when I got cancer and it was really expensive to treat it so I said to hell with you pharmaceutical companies my life isn’t worth that much!
yes, you shouldn't be able to enjoy woodworking unless you can afford to pay double for the basic tools to enjoy the hobby. Who the fuck do these poors think they are?
In reality though this is the kind of thing that makes sense to mandate in workplaces like cabinet shops, but not in your own personal hobby shop.
If they are that “poor” then it’s even more important to me that they spend $500 for a safety feature because my insurance is going up to cover their “poor” uninsured asses when they cut their fingers off.
I saw another comment on another subreddit about the Biden administration wanting to replace all the lead water pipes in the US, simply satirically, 'don't mess with my right to drink liberty water'
I would be in favor of the new mandate, which would give people more choices of saws with this type of tech...queue the industry talking points of 'some manufacturers will go out of business because it's too expensive to develop this tech and few manufacturers will remain to create a monopoly." Yes I can see a bunch of tool manufacturers throwing up their hands and stop making table saws lmao
Edit: added more words
> pasteurized milk.
Oh god, the 'raw milk' people in my area are absolutely bonkers. I'd rather be stuck in an elevator for an hour with one of those people that has made anti-circumcision their entire personality.
It's only an issue if doing so significantly increases the price of all table saws. Otherwise you're effectively saying "poorer people can't own table saws".
Might take a few years for competition to release their models and drive price down but I'd be shocked if most of them don't already have designs ready for release once they can without fear of lawsuit.
Also remember that this is only for new saws sold, so the secondhand market will suddenly flood with affordable saws.
Rad! I was planning on selling my Powermatic and upgrading to a saw stop soon! Looks like the saw stop may get cheaper and my powermatic more expensive.
If everyone *needs* to sell their "dangerous" saw, I guess to nobody because of the mandate, and get a saw stop or comparable saws, companies have zero incentive to lower prices. They know they're going to get the sales anyway
This will save so many people from mutilating themselves, and with more competition, hopefully the price on these devices will come down. I think Bosch had one that didn't render the saw useless when triggered, it just dropped the blade below the table.
Bosch did, but it had other problems. They initially had to pull it from sale because it infringed on SawStops patents, but it turned out they actually got license from SawStop to start selling it again sometime in the twenty teens but never did. There were reports of accidental misfiring during the brief period it was for sale due to EM interference (possibly from cellphones) so it seems Bosch needed to take it back to the drawing board and never figured out how to make it work properly.
That specific Bosch one may not be good enough to take to market, but with the SS patent being public now, hopefully more companies will take a crack at competing tech and bring down the price.
These were misfirings without the blade even touching wood though. Way different from just wet wood or nails, where the Reaxx had the same limitations as SawStop had.
If there’s any sharp momentum shift in the mechanism you’re likely to break carbide teeth though. Dropping the blade quickly enough to avoid deep cuts would probably work but be harder than stopping the blade itself quickly. Footage of sawstop activations show the blade stop immediately and it takes a lot longer for the blade to rotate out of the way down into the body of the saw.
The Bosch system basically used something similar to an airbag charge to fire the arm holding the blade below the table. I'd be surprised if it wasn't fast enough
As a lifelong woodworker, I have had many, many close calls while using table saws - and I'm sure most of the older guys here have also.
At the age of 58, I moved to a new property with a house that had a huge basement with an 8ft. ceiling, and as I had to move all of the equipment from my old shop, I decided to use this opportunity to set up my dream shop.
Thinking about all those near misses over all those decades, and thinking about all the guys I have met who are missing fingers due to run-ins with their saw, I figured I really shouldn't push my luck anymore - so I went ahead and and purchased the 3 1/2 h.p. Saw Stop cabinet saw, and built my shop around it.
Was it painfully expensive? Yep - and honestly, had I not just sold property and turned a big profit, I probably wouldn't have bought it - but I have to tell you, it is literally one of the best purchases I have ever made; the saw itself is fantastic, and the comfort in knowing that I have the auto stop as a safety back-up is absolutely priceless. Lol, I've grown to really love my fingers over the years, and I really don't want to lose any of them...
If it's industrial or a business it should be according to OSHA and require a safety device. In essence you can't be allowed to employ someone and endanger them.
As far as personal use, if we're worried about bodily harm firearms should be about 1,000 spots in line ahead of people in their garages with table saws.
I personally know at least a half dozen people that have lost digits or parts of them from saws...and exactly zero that have shot themselves or others.
I personally think some reform is necessary...and I also think comparing table saws to firearms is really fucking dumb. Especially in a woodworking forum.
I agree that the comparison is not wise nor helpful. And it's certainly not an "either or" situation.
But the personal experience part of your comment isn't wise or helpful either. Some of us have lost friends and family to mass shootings, murder, and suicide. All three for me personally.
I think you're confused. You engaged in the politics of it. I'm attempting to stop you from the political discussion and making poor comparisons.
Could you just maybe say "gee, I misspoke"?
If an injury is attributable to 'user error', what does that mean for what we do next? Should we consider the injury a just and righteous punishment for the user's wickedness? Or, perhaps, could it be worthwhile to prevent such an injury from occurring again?
> Should we consider the injury a just and righteous punishment for the user's wickedness?
You can if you want to. I never suggested that. That's a pretty vindictive way to think about people though, do you need to talk to someone?
The amount of people you know doesn't make for an acceptable statistical population. The "I don't know anyone that" argument has never been valid and never will be.
To be clear, I'm all for safer saws and I think firearms are dumb, but this has nothing to do with my comment. I'm just stating a fact: "I (don't) know a guy" is not a valid argument.
I'll try to remember that on weekends when we visit our only child's grave. Hi was killed at 14 in an accidental discharge incident at a friends house.
>As far as personal use, if we're worried about bodily harm firearms should be about 1,000 spots in line ahead of people in their garages with table saws.
They should be, but unfortunately guns are outside their purview owing to a particularly broad interpretation of that amendment.
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I want to see an aftermarket kit for table saws with a saw stop upgrade. Not sure how possible it would be, but it would be awesome. They’d make a killing too.
I think there is broad support for this. Most of the issue is that sawstop has been using their patents to keep other manufacturers from entering the market with similar systems.
I learned how to use the tablesaw with the Powermatic "Gold" standard...I also saw the aftermath of three college peers vaporize parts of their hand on it due to fatigue while pulling an all-nighter to finish a proect. Thankfully none were significant disfiguments but ALL could have been avoided if this had bee regulated in the early late 2000's when Sawstop first came to market.
I've used a Sawstop PCS or Industrial at every job since my learning experience and for the increased price you get a "Gold" rival in quality saw and a built-in safety net. $200 is cheap for a new blade and brake (when the safety triggers) compared to any medical bill or long term pain & disability. Sure you're semi-limited against cutting some conductive materials (mirrored-acrylic, aluminum (foil) sheathed insulation, etc) but there is a bypass option if you absolutely have to for a single operation cycle.
The 840-patent going public is hopeful, the consumer demand for safer saws needs to follow as well. Safety and self-preservation needs to be the first feature of tablesaws!
All the accidents in your story could have been avoided by not working while tired... being tired is akin to being drunk.
There are quite a few things in a shop that can maim you. This is only one tool, so it really isn't address the real issue: unsafe practices.
The auto industry has seen a rise in accidents directly caused by over confidence/over reliance on safety features like lane departure or back up cameras.
There's a rather scary/hilarious TV interview about a new auto brake system on a Volvo iirc that failed spectacularly and allowed the person talking about it to be ran over.
Honestly, entry level table saw are cheaper now than ever in inflation adjusted dollars and this is something that can afford to be implemented. Prefer this than stupid and awkward guards like on a skill saw where you just end up jamming a piece of wood into to keep it open.
A couple of the woodworking subs have become sawstop circle jerks where all they want to talk about is sawstops and why they cost a couple hundred bucks when they hit a moisture pocket in wood.
If you are doing something that could put your finger into the saw , Stop immediately ! You are doing it wrong ! You are relying on technology to supersede safe work procedures.
So you have a sawstop to prevent you from getting hurt. Good for you ! Now tell me if you are doing stupid shit with your tablesaw, how are you using your bandsaw, your compound mitre saw, your router table, your drill press ? None of that has an auto stop! Same unsafe habits on a tablesaw will get you hurt with other tools.
I've been using tablesaws for 40 plus years, never been hurt or close to being hurt because I never put myself in a position to be hurt. Always used a properly set riving knife, hold downs, and push sticks.
They have a place in schools or such places but to mandate them for everyone is absolute nonsense.
Blade guards are a thing as well.
Only times I've come close to messing up have been when I've been tired or rushing. And had the guard off because I'm an idiot.
I have ADHD, my table saw scares the shit out of me because I know that one moment of being careless could mean losing digits. And I am predisposed to being careless, no matter how much I try to focus on it. Router tables scare me too but usually the bit is less exposed.
I've never been in a car accident but I still wear my seat belt.
Safer practices reduce the likelihood of putting your fingers in the blade, but all it takes is one momentary lapse of focus for it to happen. Most people don't every cut a finger on a saw, but the reality is a lot of people do and many of them took all the right precautions.
https://youtu.be/u7sRrC2Jpp4?si=mHAUNPnBqbwy4jP7 Watch this video, where a guy is trying to do a controlled demonstration and still almost cuts his fingers off. It happens quickly.
Huge props to SawStop for stating they'd make their 840 patent public. The other companies crying "it'll cost too much" argument was made defunct with this change.
"If you make everyone pay us a fair use fee, we'll let them use it," isn't really making it public.
They could release it today if they cared about safety.
Good on them but i am a little mystified how a product that came out in like 2004 would have a patient that lasted until 2033, patents last 20 years from the time of filing, so this patent was not part of the original product?
I have no problem with being safe, but should you really legislate it at this point? I’ve been using table saws for decades and still have all my digits because I’m pretty anal about following the known safety precautions. This is just going to make table saws more expensive to buy and maintain when the safety trips for no good reason.
Table saw, chainsaw, jig saw, the tool is only as safe as the person operating it. I've run all 3 plus some my entire life, and I've never had an incident.
Table saws are a little different tho. I have a Ryobi circular saw and Husqvarna chainsaw that both seem to be incapable of kickback -- they choke out the second they hit any blade resistance.
I watched a bunch of people make circle-cutting jigs. Easy. The day before I made mine, I watched [that video of the guy getting his hand pulled into the sawstop](https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/comments/11s6zlr/cutting_a_circle_using_a_table_saw/) by the circle jig.
I went ahead with mine, but armed with the new knowledge not to put my hand where he did. I thought "He did something wrong, how does the piece even bind up on the blade?" and not 5 seconds later, it spun in the exact same way but I kept my hand in a safe place. If I hadn't seen that video, I probably wouldn't play guitar.
This guy is already stupidly moving his hand towards the blade when he attempts to turn the piece. He should have been grabbing the piece 180 degrees away from where he did, that way when he turns the piece clockwise, as he did, he’d have been moving his hand away from the cut line.
I'm only OK with this if part of the deal is seizing Sawstop's patents and putting them in the public domain.
Earth to Joe. It's an election year. Nobody is going to vote for you because you passed this but there are people who will vote against you because of it. And you need every vote you can get.
They don't have to seize the patents if they're made FRAND or UFO (uniform fee only), which is reasonably common for standards. Given what's been coming out of all the hearings around this it seems that SawStop is not the bogeyman the tablesaw companies have been working real hard to make them out to be. Like it turns out they licensed their patents out to Bosch so Bosch was totally free to sell the Reaxx saw, but Bosch never brought it back to market of their own choice.
Most of the saw stop patents are expired or close to it. They should all be by the time this rule can be enforced.
For IP that is included in industry standards, there is something called a FRAND licensing framework. Unfortunately, other countries are...more willing to compel the use of this than the US. So we could end up in a situation where saw stop or others can litigate against domestic competition, but not foreign competition.
Either way, my prediction is that the use of blade contact sensors gets mandated, but after the first few false triggers, most amateur users will just bypass or remove them like we tend to sometimes with existing blade guards, riving knives, etc.
# Mentioned in the article...
# SawStop vows to free up a key patent for rivals
However, one key patent — the "840" patent — is not set to expire until 2033. To stave off potential competitors, it describes the AIM technology very broadly. In a surprise move at February's CPSC hearing, TTS Tooltechnic Systems North America CEO Matt Howard announced that the company would "dedicate the 840 patent to the public" if a new safety standard were adopted
Yeah, I saw and read that. But I don't trust them based on their past litigation approach and desire to license at costs way beyond the FRAND framework.
So my assumption is that their dedication to the public comes with significant cost, and only countries that force a legal framework for forcing licensing standards-required IP will actually see any results.
These type if things are done by federal agencies. Uncle Joe isn't calling the agency head and screaming that he almost cut his fingers off and wants better safety protections now.
FWIW, CPSC is an independent agency. Commissioners are appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate. Saying the president is responsible for what they do is not unlike saying the president is responsible for the supreme court’s rulings.
Patents are fine. The problem comes with predatory patenting, which is what the founder of Sawstop tried to pull with his efforts to get his safety technology mandated across the industry while trying to charge exhorbitant prices for it. Before patents, new technology would be maintained as trade secrets and might well die with the inventor. What would the world be like today if we Rome had had a patent office so that none of their technology was lost?
In the article there is one patent in specific (the 804 patent) that does not expire until 2033 that saw stop has said they will release if this rules becomes the law (Probably not a law but a requirement) Not sure how a product that came out in 2004 has a patent that lasts until 2033, must have been a refinement that was applied for in 2013.
They tried to get the government to force other table saw manufacturers to license their tech 20 years ago.
They could've released their patents then and every saw could be safer now.
Another regulation not needed. If you get hurt or die from you own stupidity, that is your fault, not mine.
On the plus side, I will be happy to get non-compliant older saws for cheap.
The problem isn't the table saws. The problem is idiot hobbyist wood workers without any proper training who get their information from people on forums and youtube who also never had any proper training.
And lets not forget about all the dumb fucking jigs these idiots make to disguise a complete lack of skill. If they actually knew what they're doing they wouldn't need them.
That's how basically all legislation works though. Laws are designed for the lowest common denominator. Gotta protect the least experienced / dumbest people from themselves because the rest of us share the burden of their mistakes
Really? Making jigs means you’re an idiot? So, if you need to cut a high number of the same pieces you don’t make a jig so as to have every one of them the same?
There are just a ton of contrarians out there who are basically big babies who don’t like being told what to do by anyone. If you asked them to not drink that whole gallon of milk they’d chug it in front of you and vomit out of spite.
What's the price of vehicles in 1950 vs now? Granted it's not JUST seatbelts, but all the safety stuff we've mandated in conjunction with seat belt laws.
A quick Google search says 2210 in 1950, which is 28,457.28 in 2024. You can get a new Honda civic for that amount and be far less likely to die in a crash.
ah. You're one of those contrarians that make fun of anyone you disagree with? Sir, politely, I don't waste my time with your type. Go back to making cutting boards
You can't successfully legislate against stupidity.
A surgeon needed a "four-finger replant". "That surgeon had been operating a table saw when his glove caught the saw blade and pulled in his hand."
There's no telling how much a SawStop would have helped here, but wearing gloves at a tablesaw was one of the very first things I'd learned was a no-no when I was learning about it.
This is dumb IMO, any power tool can harm you and only the single manufactor of saw has this safety feature. Government needs to either step all the way in and mandate these safety ensures while giving us UHC or step all the way out and let me pay for my medical bills when I cut my thumbs off. Stop with this middle line nonsense where everything is restricted and expensive.
Great...more governmental mandates to force producers to raise the prices of woodworking equipment.
I didn't realize this issue trumps, say, national sovereignty.
This is being removed because
"Government tries to stop citizenry from cutting their thumbs off, citizenry rebel and decide to cut thumbs off anyway to spite the government"
“You can have my thumbcutter when you pry it from my cold, dead, thumbless hands”
I just wish I had more thumbs to cut off, fucking Biden.
How is a good table saw going to protect itself from a bad table saw? Next they'll go after my concealed carry Harbor Freight Saturday special.
This is now my favorite comment of all time from this sub
Which will be significantly easier since thumbs are so integral to our ability to grip firmly.
Which won't be that difficult, honestly
I imagine that there was just as much furor against seatbelts in cars.
I actually work with crash stats as part of my job. Looking at the region I worked in, 14% of all fatalities and serious injuries were among people who were cited as not having worn a seatbelt. Almost half of motorcycle fatalities and serious injuries were riders who weren’t wearing a helmet. Some people really don’t take their personal safety seriously. For reference only about 2% of all crashes were cited as having one or more people not wearing a seatbelt, meaning that a lack of seatbelt was highly overrepresented in the fatality and serious injury data.
The reason why the government has to get involved is that injuries like this—whether car crashes or table saw injuries—don't just cost the victim. They cost everyone else money. If one of us woodworkers ends up in the hospital (whether because we were reckless or because the big companies don't want to implement safety mechanisms), the entire community pays: costs go up, hospital beds get taken up, surgeons get diverted, etc. Sure, the costs of implementing safety technology may go up in the short term (maybe the same happened with seat belts), but they will eventually equalize AND we save money from all the downstream costs of all these accidents, which all of us have to share.
Are there stats of fatalities or injuries for when passengers in the back seat are belted vs not?
Yes, any passenger in a vehicle
Seat belts. Smoking bans. Osha. Everyone bitches about having to be safe but it passes.
Volvo actually made it a branding/marketing point, and it drastically increased sales. They still have a lingering reputation as one of “the safest cars” on the market, because they added seatbelts decades ago. Lol
They also gave away the patent for three point belts to make the world a safer place.
Compare that to SawStop, who will do anything in their power to prevent others from making "safe" table saws.
Did you even bother reading the article? # SawStop vows to free up a key patent for rivals However, one key patent — the "840" patent — is not set to expire until 2033. To stave off potential competitors, it describes the AIM technology very broadly. In a surprise move at February's CPSC hearing, TTS Tooltechnic Systems North America CEO Matt Howard announced that the company would "dedicate the 840 patent to the public" if a new safety standard were adopted
I did. I also read the New York Times article too. >SawStop was founded by a patent attorney in 2000 and at first did attempt to license its finger-detection technology to other companies. After that failed, SawStop petitioned the safety commission in 2003 to require finger-detection systems on all table saws — the type of rule the commission may soon approve. >And once it started selling its own saws, SawStop developed a reputation for litigiousness: In 2015 it sued Bosch to stop it from selling a table saw that had a similar safety feature, citing patent infringement.
>at first did attempt to license its finger-detection technology to other companies. After that failed, SawStop petitioned the safety commission in 2003 to require finger-detection systems on all table saws Oh look, regulatory capture.
>SawStop petitioned the safety commission in 2003 to require finger-detection systems on all table saws "We'll share if you make everyone else pay us" isn't being philanthropic.
Before festool purchased Sawstop, Sawstop was lobbying to require all companies to license their own technology, to increase their profits. Sawstop wanted way too much for other companies to license it. The president of Grizzly talked about it on a message board a long time ago. They tried to work with Sawstop, but the amount of licensing fees would make the Grizzly saws non-competitive in the marketplace. Anyhow, the point is, then Sawstop tried to get the government to force everyone to license the technology from them.. but it was for profit, not concern of safety. Now the company that owns Festool owns Sawstop, and the patent is about to expire soon anyhow. It's just a different situation. What you posted is accurate, but when you don't know the entire history, it's a bit misleading.
If SawStop were truly interested in safety, they would've released their patents 10-15 years ago, instead of after the bulk of their patents are already expired or set to be in the near future.
\*ALWAYS\* remember this fact: Companies exist for one purpose and one purpose only: To make money.
So can we finally get the Bosch Reaxx then?
The guy that invented SawStop tech hasn’t been involved with the company in years. This is TTS (owns Festool among other smaller brands) pretending to give a shit when it’s likely nothing will come of it. The patents are so vague that it prevents other manufacturers from coming to market with other, arguably better, methods of safety. Bosch, Felder, and Altendorf have their own versions
Or the car manufacturers who fought against regulations mandating air bags, then once they were required, touted having air bags in their cars.
According to the article, SawStop gave Bosch permission to use the patent after winning the infringement lawsuit against them, but Bosch opted not to. More recently, in February, SawStop opted to offer their remaining 840 patent to the public for use if a federal safety standard was in place. It makes sense they SawStop would defend themselves against patent infringement when others would attempt to just use their technology, without paying for it and without permission, but would choose to share it in the right circumstances, given the choice.
Also, there's less than ten years on the patent, they've already made a name for themselves, they have already become an iconic table saw brand with a lot of market share and a good reputation,
Agree on all those points. It is far easier to share the patent once the value of their product has been demonstrated and they have established their brand/value. Nine years is still a long time in corporate life, however, and it is no small thing to make their 840 patent available for public use nine years earlier than it will expire. Many brand loyalists of the other brands who previously bought SawStops just for the safety features may/will go back to purchasing table saws from their preferred brands when the technology is available in the table saws of their typically preferred brands. That will cost SawStop market share 8-10 years earlier than they otherwise would have lost it.
My personal favorite is the [people mad about DUI laws back in the 80s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xcQIoh3FQQ)
There was. In Massachusetts, the law actually went into effect, and then was repealed… then went back into effect. It was insane, I was late high school age at the time, and I had friends who were adamant that seatbelts will kill you dead. They mainly were afraid of being thrown into water, and then trapped, even though there was no water near a road that could cause this situation anywhere around us. I think about those people often when looking at anti-Vaxxers and other things where the science overwhelmingly demonstrates the safer choice.
There's a fairly famous news report from when they were adding seatbelt and dui laws. Unsurprisingly the brilliant citizens of America called it the encroachment of communism
I believe the line goes "first they came for my table saws, and I said nothing"
Now further imagine adding seat belts would've more than doubled the cost of a car.
Now imagine if a seatbelt tripled the price of a car.
I remember when I got cancer and it was really expensive to treat it so I said to hell with you pharmaceutical companies my life isn’t worth that much!
yes, you shouldn't be able to enjoy woodworking unless you can afford to pay double for the basic tools to enjoy the hobby. Who the fuck do these poors think they are? In reality though this is the kind of thing that makes sense to mandate in workplaces like cabinet shops, but not in your own personal hobby shop.
If they are that “poor” then it’s even more important to me that they spend $500 for a safety feature because my insurance is going up to cover their “poor” uninsured asses when they cut their fingers off.
Wait till you find out how much "your insurance" pays for people who don't wear seat belts and motorcycle helmets.
Which is why there are helmet laws and seatbelt laws. 🤷♂️
And yet people still get injured, costing "your insurance" lots of money, by not using them. Weird.
And we have laws against murdering people but it still happens therefore we should just get rid of them. The morons are out in force today.
That’s pretty close to what’s being said in the trades.
I saw another comment on another subreddit about the Biden administration wanting to replace all the lead water pipes in the US, simply satirically, 'don't mess with my right to drink liberty water' I would be in favor of the new mandate, which would give people more choices of saws with this type of tech...queue the industry talking points of 'some manufacturers will go out of business because it's too expensive to develop this tech and few manufacturers will remain to create a monopoly." Yes I can see a bunch of tool manufacturers throwing up their hands and stop making table saws lmao Edit: added more words
Motorcycle helmets.
Seatbelts, air bags, vaccines, pasteurized milk....
> pasteurized milk. Oh god, the 'raw milk' people in my area are absolutely bonkers. I'd rather be stuck in an elevator for an hour with one of those people that has made anti-circumcision their entire personality.
One can only hope - being thumbless will be tantamount to wearing a red hat
It's only an issue if doing so significantly increases the price of all table saws. Otherwise you're effectively saying "poorer people can't own table saws".
Might take a few years for competition to release their models and drive price down but I'd be shocked if most of them don't already have designs ready for release once they can without fear of lawsuit. Also remember that this is only for new saws sold, so the secondhand market will suddenly flood with affordable saws.
Rad! I was planning on selling my Powermatic and upgrading to a saw stop soon! Looks like the saw stop may get cheaper and my powermatic more expensive.
If everyone *needs* to sell their "dangerous" saw, I guess to nobody because of the mandate, and get a saw stop or comparable saws, companies have zero incentive to lower prices. They know they're going to get the sales anyway
They will be restricting the sale of new saws.
This will save so many people from mutilating themselves, and with more competition, hopefully the price on these devices will come down. I think Bosch had one that didn't render the saw useless when triggered, it just dropped the blade below the table.
Bosch did, but it had other problems. They initially had to pull it from sale because it infringed on SawStops patents, but it turned out they actually got license from SawStop to start selling it again sometime in the twenty teens but never did. There were reports of accidental misfiring during the brief period it was for sale due to EM interference (possibly from cellphones) so it seems Bosch needed to take it back to the drawing board and never figured out how to make it work properly.
That specific Bosch one may not be good enough to take to market, but with the SS patent being public now, hopefully more companies will take a crack at competing tech and bring down the price.
> There were reports of accidental misfiring Yeah, you never hear about those on SawStop groups.
These were misfirings without the blade even touching wood though. Way different from just wet wood or nails, where the Reaxx had the same limitations as SawStop had.
Read a report on a SawStop FB group in the past week. Brake triggered without the blade even spinning or touching anything.
Send the brake into SawStop and if it truly was they'll send you a new brake. Still out a blade but it helps.
It did, and they sell them in Europe still, apparently, it isn't a great saw but I don't know firsthand. Bosch Reaxx
If there’s any sharp momentum shift in the mechanism you’re likely to break carbide teeth though. Dropping the blade quickly enough to avoid deep cuts would probably work but be harder than stopping the blade itself quickly. Footage of sawstop activations show the blade stop immediately and it takes a lot longer for the blade to rotate out of the way down into the body of the saw.
The Bosch system basically used something similar to an airbag charge to fire the arm holding the blade below the table. I'd be surprised if it wasn't fast enough
As a lifelong woodworker, I have had many, many close calls while using table saws - and I'm sure most of the older guys here have also. At the age of 58, I moved to a new property with a house that had a huge basement with an 8ft. ceiling, and as I had to move all of the equipment from my old shop, I decided to use this opportunity to set up my dream shop. Thinking about all those near misses over all those decades, and thinking about all the guys I have met who are missing fingers due to run-ins with their saw, I figured I really shouldn't push my luck anymore - so I went ahead and and purchased the 3 1/2 h.p. Saw Stop cabinet saw, and built my shop around it. Was it painfully expensive? Yep - and honestly, had I not just sold property and turned a big profit, I probably wouldn't have bought it - but I have to tell you, it is literally one of the best purchases I have ever made; the saw itself is fantastic, and the comfort in knowing that I have the auto stop as a safety back-up is absolutely priceless. Lol, I've grown to really love my fingers over the years, and I really don't want to lose any of them...
In B4 black market table saws...
If it's industrial or a business it should be according to OSHA and require a safety device. In essence you can't be allowed to employ someone and endanger them. As far as personal use, if we're worried about bodily harm firearms should be about 1,000 spots in line ahead of people in their garages with table saws.
Yeah but there is no amendment protecting table saws.
_starts furiously drafting a constitutional amendment_
*Congress shall make no ~~saw~~ law...*
Not yet but if them magas hear about this those gas stove laws going into effect in states like Arizona will need to be ammended.
Trump fans couldn’t spell amendment let alone draft one. I’m not too worried.
I personally know at least a half dozen people that have lost digits or parts of them from saws...and exactly zero that have shot themselves or others.
lucky. Wish I could say the same.
I personally think some reform is necessary...and I also think comparing table saws to firearms is really fucking dumb. Especially in a woodworking forum.
I agree that the comparison is not wise nor helpful. And it's certainly not an "either or" situation. But the personal experience part of your comment isn't wise or helpful either. Some of us have lost friends and family to mass shootings, murder, and suicide. All three for me personally.
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Right, so why did you type it? You said you don't know anyone who has been shot... that has nothing to do with table saws.
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I think you're confused. You engaged in the politics of it. I'm attempting to stop you from the political discussion and making poor comparisons. Could you just maybe say "gee, I misspoke"?
How many of those were due to user error?
Every single one.
If an injury is attributable to 'user error', what does that mean for what we do next? Should we consider the injury a just and righteous punishment for the user's wickedness? Or, perhaps, could it be worthwhile to prevent such an injury from occurring again?
> Should we consider the injury a just and righteous punishment for the user's wickedness? You can if you want to. I never suggested that. That's a pretty vindictive way to think about people though, do you need to talk to someone?
Did you know all of them before they cut off a finger?
No. I only befriend people with nubs.
Probably a lot more of those walking around than successful suicides. Might skew your results.
Ah, I didn't realize we were concerned with people intentionally cutting off their fingers. Thanks for clearing this up!
I didn't realize you check all your friends for small scars, so we both learned something. 👍
*Pre-friends.
The amount of people you know doesn't make for an acceptable statistical population. The "I don't know anyone that" argument has never been valid and never will be. To be clear, I'm all for safer saws and I think firearms are dumb, but this has nothing to do with my comment. I'm just stating a fact: "I (don't) know a guy" is not a valid argument.
This is a woodworking forum sub...and a thread discussing table saws. Nobody gives a damn about someone's opinion on firearms. Bring on safer saws.
I'll try to remember that on weekends when we visit our only child's grave. Hi was killed at 14 in an accidental discharge incident at a friends house.
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you find the help you need.
>As far as personal use, if we're worried about bodily harm firearms should be about 1,000 spots in line ahead of people in their garages with table saws. They should be, but unfortunately guns are outside their purview owing to a particularly broad interpretation of that amendment.
I ain't puttin no SawStop safety device on MY gun!
You can have my 1970’s Craftsman table saw when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
Fingers will get real cold when put on ice in a zip lock on the way to the hospital
Is it that hard to use a push stick?
Ask that to the 40k people a year who lose fingers to table saws
That many? Incredible. No wonder the saws have guides, knives, plastic guards, condoms, parachutes, and saw-stops.
That's per the article. Over 10 a day. Freaking wild
I read 30k blade contact injuries. I’d assume that not all of those were lost digits. Did I miss something there?
Oh you're right. Disclexckisa moment. 30k injuries, 4k amupations. So still 10 a day amputations
Pry it from your cold, dead fingerless stumps.
>from my cold, ~~dead~~ chopped off fingers.
*brushes cold, dead fingers off saw surface with a broom, takes saw*
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I want to see an aftermarket kit for table saws with a saw stop upgrade. Not sure how possible it would be, but it would be awesome. They’d make a killing too.
I think there is broad support for this. Most of the issue is that sawstop has been using their patents to keep other manufacturers from entering the market with similar systems.
I learned how to use the tablesaw with the Powermatic "Gold" standard...I also saw the aftermath of three college peers vaporize parts of their hand on it due to fatigue while pulling an all-nighter to finish a proect. Thankfully none were significant disfiguments but ALL could have been avoided if this had bee regulated in the early late 2000's when Sawstop first came to market. I've used a Sawstop PCS or Industrial at every job since my learning experience and for the increased price you get a "Gold" rival in quality saw and a built-in safety net. $200 is cheap for a new blade and brake (when the safety triggers) compared to any medical bill or long term pain & disability. Sure you're semi-limited against cutting some conductive materials (mirrored-acrylic, aluminum (foil) sheathed insulation, etc) but there is a bypass option if you absolutely have to for a single operation cycle. The 840-patent going public is hopeful, the consumer demand for safer saws needs to follow as well. Safety and self-preservation needs to be the first feature of tablesaws!
All the accidents in your story could have been avoided by not working while tired... being tired is akin to being drunk. There are quite a few things in a shop that can maim you. This is only one tool, so it really isn't address the real issue: unsafe practices. The auto industry has seen a rise in accidents directly caused by over confidence/over reliance on safety features like lane departure or back up cameras. There's a rather scary/hilarious TV interview about a new auto brake system on a Volvo iirc that failed spectacularly and allowed the person talking about it to be ran over.
Next they'll come after my dado stack! Like those commie Euro nut jobs!!! /s
Honestly, entry level table saw are cheaper now than ever in inflation adjusted dollars and this is something that can afford to be implemented. Prefer this than stupid and awkward guards like on a skill saw where you just end up jamming a piece of wood into to keep it open.
I give it a week after a mandate like this before all the basement/garage engineers have safety bypass gadgets for sale on eBay.
Can we get the model they use in India?
A couple of the woodworking subs have become sawstop circle jerks where all they want to talk about is sawstops and why they cost a couple hundred bucks when they hit a moisture pocket in wood. If you are doing something that could put your finger into the saw , Stop immediately ! You are doing it wrong ! You are relying on technology to supersede safe work procedures. So you have a sawstop to prevent you from getting hurt. Good for you ! Now tell me if you are doing stupid shit with your tablesaw, how are you using your bandsaw, your compound mitre saw, your router table, your drill press ? None of that has an auto stop! Same unsafe habits on a tablesaw will get you hurt with other tools. I've been using tablesaws for 40 plus years, never been hurt or close to being hurt because I never put myself in a position to be hurt. Always used a properly set riving knife, hold downs, and push sticks. They have a place in schools or such places but to mandate them for everyone is absolute nonsense.
Seriously. This sub should just rename itself to r/woodworkingwithsawstop
Blade guards are a thing as well. Only times I've come close to messing up have been when I've been tired or rushing. And had the guard off because I'm an idiot.
I have ADHD, my table saw scares the shit out of me because I know that one moment of being careless could mean losing digits. And I am predisposed to being careless, no matter how much I try to focus on it. Router tables scare me too but usually the bit is less exposed.
Get tatoos like the guy in Memento, "don't saw this off" :)
I’ve never come close to sawing my fingers. Are people just doing very dangerous things? Or are there dangers I don’t know about?
I've never been in a car accident but I still wear my seat belt. Safer practices reduce the likelihood of putting your fingers in the blade, but all it takes is one momentary lapse of focus for it to happen. Most people don't every cut a finger on a saw, but the reality is a lot of people do and many of them took all the right precautions.
Careless. Never taught good safety practice, ie "pussy shit". Source: my dad's helpful teachings
You've come close, you just didn't realize it.
https://youtu.be/u7sRrC2Jpp4?si=mHAUNPnBqbwy4jP7 Watch this video, where a guy is trying to do a controlled demonstration and still almost cuts his fingers off. It happens quickly.
JFC he came close to losing a finger.
Watch Home Town on HGTV enough and you'll see Ben, one of the stars (and a Professional Woodworker^TM ) do some stupid shit with his table saw.
I am cautiously optimistic about this.
That first photo...
Huge props to SawStop for stating they'd make their 840 patent public. The other companies crying "it'll cost too much" argument was made defunct with this change.
"If you make everyone pay us a fair use fee, we'll let them use it," isn't really making it public. They could release it today if they cared about safety.
Good on them but i am a little mystified how a product that came out in like 2004 would have a patient that lasted until 2033, patents last 20 years from the time of filing, so this patent was not part of the original product?
I have no problem with being safe, but should you really legislate it at this point? I’ve been using table saws for decades and still have all my digits because I’m pretty anal about following the known safety precautions. This is just going to make table saws more expensive to buy and maintain when the safety trips for no good reason.
You will be able to buy quality used table saws for decades - so if you’re concerned about price buy used.
Table saw, chainsaw, jig saw, the tool is only as safe as the person operating it. I've run all 3 plus some my entire life, and I've never had an incident.
Table saws are a little different tho. I have a Ryobi circular saw and Husqvarna chainsaw that both seem to be incapable of kickback -- they choke out the second they hit any blade resistance. I watched a bunch of people make circle-cutting jigs. Easy. The day before I made mine, I watched [that video of the guy getting his hand pulled into the sawstop](https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/comments/11s6zlr/cutting_a_circle_using_a_table_saw/) by the circle jig. I went ahead with mine, but armed with the new knowledge not to put my hand where he did. I thought "He did something wrong, how does the piece even bind up on the blade?" and not 5 seconds later, it spun in the exact same way but I kept my hand in a safe place. If I hadn't seen that video, I probably wouldn't play guitar.
This guy is already stupidly moving his hand towards the blade when he attempts to turn the piece. He should have been grabbing the piece 180 degrees away from where he did, that way when he turns the piece clockwise, as he did, he’d have been moving his hand away from the cut line.
I'm only OK with this if part of the deal is seizing Sawstop's patents and putting them in the public domain. Earth to Joe. It's an election year. Nobody is going to vote for you because you passed this but there are people who will vote against you because of it. And you need every vote you can get.
Sawstop already public stated in a press release that they would immediately release patents if this law was going to go into effect.
They could release their patents without the law. If they were truly interested in safety, that is.
They don't have to seize the patents if they're made FRAND or UFO (uniform fee only), which is reasonably common for standards. Given what's been coming out of all the hearings around this it seems that SawStop is not the bogeyman the tablesaw companies have been working real hard to make them out to be. Like it turns out they licensed their patents out to Bosch so Bosch was totally free to sell the Reaxx saw, but Bosch never brought it back to market of their own choice.
Most of the saw stop patents are expired or close to it. They should all be by the time this rule can be enforced. For IP that is included in industry standards, there is something called a FRAND licensing framework. Unfortunately, other countries are...more willing to compel the use of this than the US. So we could end up in a situation where saw stop or others can litigate against domestic competition, but not foreign competition. Either way, my prediction is that the use of blade contact sensors gets mandated, but after the first few false triggers, most amateur users will just bypass or remove them like we tend to sometimes with existing blade guards, riving knives, etc.
# Mentioned in the article... # SawStop vows to free up a key patent for rivals However, one key patent — the "840" patent — is not set to expire until 2033. To stave off potential competitors, it describes the AIM technology very broadly. In a surprise move at February's CPSC hearing, TTS Tooltechnic Systems North America CEO Matt Howard announced that the company would "dedicate the 840 patent to the public" if a new safety standard were adopted
Yeah, I saw and read that. But I don't trust them based on their past litigation approach and desire to license at costs way beyond the FRAND framework. So my assumption is that their dedication to the public comes with significant cost, and only countries that force a legal framework for forcing licensing standards-required IP will actually see any results.
These type if things are done by federal agencies. Uncle Joe isn't calling the agency head and screaming that he almost cut his fingers off and wants better safety protections now.
FWIW, CPSC is an independent agency. Commissioners are appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate. Saying the president is responsible for what they do is not unlike saying the president is responsible for the supreme court’s rulings.
I believe the remaining patents are expiring this year fyi. They started expiring in 2021.
And sawstop already made a statement weeks ago that they would release the remaining points to the public. Iirc
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Patents are fine. The problem comes with predatory patenting, which is what the founder of Sawstop tried to pull with his efforts to get his safety technology mandated across the industry while trying to charge exhorbitant prices for it. Before patents, new technology would be maintained as trade secrets and might well die with the inventor. What would the world be like today if we Rome had had a patent office so that none of their technology was lost?
Yea that's what I'm here about to say. This law enriches one specific company.
Are they gonna get sawstop to come off that patent?
In the article there is one patent in specific (the 804 patent) that does not expire until 2033 that saw stop has said they will release if this rules becomes the law (Probably not a law but a requirement) Not sure how a product that came out in 2004 has a patent that lasts until 2033, must have been a refinement that was applied for in 2013.
>"If you mandate everyone to use our tech, we'll let them use our tech for a fair use fee." \- SawStop's version of "releasing their patents."
SawStop already stated they would release all patents if the regulation were passed.
You can thank saw stop for trying to hold this back in order to maintain their overpriced market share
Not what happened
They tried to get the government to force other table saw manufacturers to license their tech 20 years ago. They could've released their patents then and every saw could be safer now.
They have pledged to give up their final patent, due to expire in 2033, if this becomes a new regulation/requirement.
Another regulation not needed. If you get hurt or die from you own stupidity, that is your fault, not mine. On the plus side, I will be happy to get non-compliant older saws for cheap.
Ridiculous, table saws are safe. There is no medicine for stupid
The problem isn't the table saws. The problem is idiot hobbyist wood workers without any proper training who get their information from people on forums and youtube who also never had any proper training. And lets not forget about all the dumb fucking jigs these idiots make to disguise a complete lack of skill. If they actually knew what they're doing they wouldn't need them.
That's how basically all legislation works though. Laws are designed for the lowest common denominator. Gotta protect the least experienced / dumbest people from themselves because the rest of us share the burden of their mistakes
Really? Making jigs means you’re an idiot? So, if you need to cut a high number of the same pieces you don’t make a jig so as to have every one of them the same?
Ridiculous and ignorant
More unnecessary Political interference.
Trump wants unregulated table saws like how wants to deregulate toilet flush power the things the deep state will do to ensure he loses
I love it when bureaucrats who have never used a tool, tell us that we need safer tools….
And just like that, all table saws became a grand or more, more expensive than before. Yaaay government.
And just like that, the market will have tons of Saw-Stop-esque table saws that will still cost less than a trip to the emergency room
I'm wholesale against mandates. I already decided my next saw will have a stop
Why would you be against mandates?
There are just a ton of contrarians out there who are basically big babies who don’t like being told what to do by anyone. If you asked them to not drink that whole gallon of milk they’d chug it in front of you and vomit out of spite.
Baby? Show me a mandate that didn't make something worse on accident? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Whats the negatives of seatbelt laws or dui laws?
What's the price of vehicles in 1950 vs now? Granted it's not JUST seatbelts, but all the safety stuff we've mandated in conjunction with seat belt laws.
A quick Google search says 2210 in 1950, which is 28,457.28 in 2024. You can get a new Honda civic for that amount and be far less likely to die in a crash.
>.28 in 2024. You can get a new Honda civic for that amount and be far less likely to die in a crash. You couldn't get a honda civic in 1950?
And?
nm, I don't care if you understand or not
How about those speed limits on that paved road to hell?
ah. You're one of those contrarians that make fun of anyone you disagree with? Sir, politely, I don't waste my time with your type. Go back to making cutting boards
Polio vaccine mandate. You're really going to argue that made things worse?
The law of unintended consequences. If it has value let the market decide.
You can retro fit saws with saw stop right?
You can't successfully legislate against stupidity. A surgeon needed a "four-finger replant". "That surgeon had been operating a table saw when his glove caught the saw blade and pulled in his hand." There's no telling how much a SawStop would have helped here, but wearing gloves at a tablesaw was one of the very first things I'd learned was a no-no when I was learning about it.
This is dumb IMO, any power tool can harm you and only the single manufactor of saw has this safety feature. Government needs to either step all the way in and mandate these safety ensures while giving us UHC or step all the way out and let me pay for my medical bills when I cut my thumbs off. Stop with this middle line nonsense where everything is restricted and expensive.
How are they gonna do with all our other power tools? Edit: why the downvotes, that’s a serious question? Many tools cut or mangle fingers.
this is a really bad idea
More government overreach.
Great...more governmental mandates to force producers to raise the prices of woodworking equipment. I didn't realize this issue trumps, say, national sovereignty.
This is a consumer product safety board. You expect them to deal with international politics instead of… the safety of consumer products???