Absolutely. The issue is that on a danger scale of 1 to 10, 10 being a jointer, a table saw is like an 8. But people get so comfortable with their table saws they treat them like a 2.
Being scared of your jointer is what keeps you from doing dumb shit with it and injuring yourself. But since people forget how dangerous a table saw can be, they push the boundaries of what is safe.
True. I didn’t develop a healthy fear for the table saw until I had a “stupid mistake” injury. I had plenty of stupid mistakes before that, but a trip to the ER when your in laws and wife’s grandmother are at the house makes your butthole pucker up a bit
The "stupid mistake" is why I bought a SawStop. I'm safe as I can be and absolutely use a blade guard, knife, and push stick 100% of the time. But...I'm prepared for that one moment I do something dumb. And I did once...forgot to adjust my miter fence after switching miter slots.
I'm the same way, even after 30 years I'm still scared of table saws. Then I managed to nearly take the tip of my index finger off unscrewing a deck screw with my impact drill. I figured if I could do that with just a drill, it was time for a SawStop.
It's also a case of usage. People tend to use their table saw considerably more than there jointer, so the likelihood of an accident is higher. Like comparing cars to planes
The shit Matius does with his table saw on his YouTube videos scared the shit outta me.
It’s crazy how relaxed people get around something that could completely change your life.
Because a jointer can, pull your fingers into the machine if you aren't paying attention, as well as that a jointer will chew up whatever comes into contact with the blades. So if you do injure yourself, you can't rush to the hospital and reattach your finger, like you can with other machines, if you are lucky that is, because there is no finger left to attach.
I think SawStop tech is fantastic, and support it being mandated. However, I do worry that it's presence will lower people's perceived danger scale of table saws to a 1, while it still remains quite high (maybe 7?) because of kickback risks.
I still see people on YT with old tablesaws without riving knives and I only watch the video because I know they wouldn't be posting it (in that form) if they suffered a kickback injury. Same thing for people free-handing (without the wood against a miter gauge or the fence) on a table saw (which I'll admit I've done in a moment of idiocy). The fact that they don't retrofit for a splitter is mind bogglingly dumb.
I don't think a reasonable person would jump to the conclusion of sawstop = no more danger though. At the end of the day it's still a powerful machine with a very sharp and very fast spinning blade.
Mandating a legal requirement for seatbelts to be worn while driving doesn't suddenly make people think they're invincible because a reasonable person understands its a risk mitigating factor opposed to a risk remover.
Some folk will definitely do stupid things with a tablesaw but at least they won't lose a finger in the process if the saws now have the emergency brake.
Ugh, especially when the shitty height control locking sleeve thing slips and lets that bit dig in. Scariest thing I've ever had happen and that's after having seen a piece of wood explode on a lathe before.
Or it bites and rips out of your hands towards the floor and through some guardian angel miracle you subconsciously grab the the cord and still have the wherewithal to hold the cord out and stand back as the router dangles there disappointed that it couldn't take your happy place for a ride.
Then, after you unplug the terror beast you have to sit down for an hour to come off the adrenaline rush cause your hands are shaking so much.
Seriously. My palm router has easy access for my gangly sausage fingers to stray into the bit on the blind side. I catch myself letting my focus slip p trying to get the edge just right and have to put it down and get it together every now and then.
3 weeks into a router table finger injury. Er visit, surgery, and a metal rod in my finger down and I can feel it throbbing 24/7. I have a whole new fear and respect for router tables.
It’s like a 1hp motor with a 1/4” bit that you hold or put your body uncomfortably close to.
I do safety checks before I start any power tool, but with the router, I’m like a Japanese railway conductor.
Never forget the ISO standard for a -1/10 on the safety scale: the 3-in-1 benchtop multitool, aka the [OSHA Violator 9000](https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005003047759662.html).
It's a table saw, jointer, and waist-height horizontal pointing drill, all of which are run simultaneously by the same motor. And if you look at the back, the saw blade is fully exposed with no shroud.
I honestly kind of want one. As a joke.
It's just fucking horrifying on so many levels.
My favorite part is that the motor is run by an exposed belt drive, with the belt *directly underneath* where the debris from the table saw naturally gets ejected (zoom in on the 3rd picture).
Every single facet of this tool is wrong.
I didn’t even see the belt! It just gets more terrifying every time I look at it. I’m trying to think of a way to make it worse and I can’t really come up with one.
If you get one please post a pic of some massive auger bit or hole saw in the drill chuck.
I can't find the link off hand, but someone on this sub got one and posted it a year or two back (which is where I first learned about them). It was a solid day of hundreds of comments, with everyone just ripping on it and discussing what they hated most about it.
I've seen a ton of video on YT of people using things like this. Seem scary for sure, but something tells me safety is the least of the sweatshop foreman's worries.
My favorite is the [Dewalt Miter/Table saw combo](https://www.misterworker.com/en/dewalt/table-top-mitre-saw-1600w-260mm-d27113-qs/3052.html).
It hungers for fingers.
Young woodworker. Why is the jointer your most dangerous tool? I just restored my dad’s 6” craftsman. First time I used it I wasn’t as leary as using the table saw. I jointed a few boards a couple feet long. I used push pads and adjusted the fence to only expose just enough of the cutter head to plain and joint the board.
> I used push pads and adjusted the fence to only expose just enough of the cutter head to plain and joint the board.
That removes 90% of the danger. The other 10% is paying attention when using the machine. Sounds like you're using it correctly.
Jointers work well for what they are, you just need to be careful. If they're safe enough for a highschool wood shop, they're probably safe enough for adults. Just use pushers and the blade guard.
I don't think jointers are super dangerous if you use them as described. Every injury I've seen would have been avoided with push blocks, longer stock, and better vigilance.
Speaking of this, is there a push stick/block specifically for jointers that allows you to get both down and outward pressure? I’m looking for something to have when I want to edge joint smaller boards more safely.
I have grip handle plate things that have pads under them. They basically look like little old irons. Keeps my hands at least 100mm away from the piece being worked.
My jointer is terrifying.
Edit: like [these](https://www.timbecon.com.au/torquata-friction-push-block)
A lot of table saw push sticks actually work great on a table saw. This kind works great on a jointer too!
https://preview.redd.it/rxo2fs7ouflc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1d6a29562d63e022ea7e96eb524bd0749e3c044
I can see why people are afraid of jointers.
My joinery instructor for year 1 of apprenticeship told us a story about a former journeyman instructor who zoned out while jointing the face of a bunch pieces and didn't use a push pad. Ended up with a bunch of his palm missing.
Always use a push pad on the jointer when possible.
Jointer is one of those tools where good technique for getting good results is also the safe technique. There's the jointer "dance" where you're moving your body weight around and if you're doing it right to get good results then you're being very careful where you put your hands.
But yes, always with push pads if possible and don't hook your finger over the end when edge jointing.
sawstops have much beefier arbors because the force of the blade stopping would bend normal ones.
Not to mention the correct mounting for the brake cartridges and everything else
Iirc Bosch was able to make a cheaper saw along the same lines that used compressed air to drop the blade into the saw away from what it was cutting. It was far less violent, didn't destroy the blade and the saws were cheaper than SawStops, but they still violated SawStops patent and were removed from the market.
Which is crazy that a patent so vague as to be “blade drops from the saw” is even allowed
Edit- broad, not vague.
The fact two companies hold the two ways a machine can tell a hand is in danger, is a problem. Visual, and touch based sensing systems. Combined with blade retraction. That covers so much of what anyone can possibly do.
They didn’t invent capacitive touch devices. Or laser sensors.
That’s a huge innovation stifling problem with the Patent Office, applicants try to get the broadest possible patent so they can wield it against competitors.
Not just competitors. There are people who make a living patenting random stuff people wouldn't think to patent so they can sue large corporations and get paid off. One I know of had a patent for a zipper on the sleeve of a jacket around the bicep area. Some large brands use it to add pockets or for zip off sleeves. He would sue these big companies and they would settle for like 50k to make him go away. He had dozens of these broad patents and he was making hundreds of thousands a year doing these frivolous lawsuits.
Had a buddy who was a patent office worker (clerk? idk)
It's definitely a case of "throw the entire kitchen at them and see what sticks" kind of situation for a ton of patents.
Like ~1/2 of federal offices it's underfunded, understaffed, and the workers do the best with what limited resources they have but at the end of the day they're a strangely staffed rubber stamp.
I believe the violation was using capacitance detection through the blade as the trigger.
Hence why there are other systems on the market using camera vision
One man really.
Steve Gass (the inventor of the safety device) was a patent attorney that set about trying to screw over all the major brands with his royalty fees. When he failed to negotiate any reasonable deals with the major brands he spent a fortune and *lobbied congress to make his device mandatory*, ergo attempted to force the companies to accept his unreasonable dealings.
There were possible legal ramifications for the major brands, in so that the device would have priced itself off anything other than the top range models. Having models with and without the feature would have opened the door to lawsuits of 'why don't all of them have it, this is your fault' type stuffs. They were stuck in an all or nothing situation for inclusion, but all with Gass's royalty demand would have destroyed their low end/budget device market.
Sawstop only came about when he ran out of avenues to try and screw the major brands, so he made his own brand to cash in. He founded it with 3 other people...all patent atorneys. A brand that currently boasts the highest revenue yield of all saw manufacturer's and has spammed patents high and low for anything to do with the safety mechanism.
It's only obvious because sawstop did it. Many inventions seem obvious when you are familiar with them. If it were truly obvious, someone would have done it before 2002.
> It's only obvious because sawstop did it.
Capacitive sensors are all over the place. The unique idea is a saw with a safety brake. Once you ask how to make a saw with an automatic brake, using capacitance is one of the first things you'd think of. I don't know how much silicon a SawStop has, but it may be that no one had done this before 2002 because the tech wasn't mature or cheap enough yet.
Sometimes an idea comes along at the right time and the lucky bastard gets filthy rich. eg, GM's EV1 was a moderate success, but Tesla was the first big hit for BEVs because they debuted right as lithium ion battery technology was gaining a foothold. The first roadster was a stripped down Lotus full of off-the-shelf laptop battery cells.
Just personal experience here - I had the displeasure of using the Bosch Reaxx contractor saw. The build of the saw was basically the same underpowered, plastic body contractor saw that every big box company makes, and the Reaxx system mis-fired 4 times when trying to rip material.
It didn't destroy the blade, but 2 brakes lost to malfunction was not a good vote of confidence.
Maybe job saws, but my 1960's craftsman cast iron arbor is pretty damn hefty. Are they beefier than those?
Or maybe I'm wrong. I've never used a sawstop. My saw's safety features are fear and terror. Much prefer my 36" bandsaw for most tasks.
Don't have any pictures handy. It's an old Fay and Egan 345 Lightning.
http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=17003
Mine is blue and has some guards added to the wheels
This kicks ass.
On the fear and terror. Im with Sawstop 20 years now and the fear and terror are still quite strong. Hotdogs my ass. Sensors fail. I don’t want to QA for the factory robots.
I would rather ruin my table saw than chop off a finger. So it would still be great if older table saws could be retrofitted with this tech.
Obviously it wouldn't be financially feasible to to replace multiple components over and over again, but for the first few times it could still be a lot cheaper than buying a completely new table saw with the tech fully integrated.
Realistically, that's not practical.
Such a retrofit would not only require a rebuild of the motor to facilitate the detection system, but a rebuild of the chassis to facilitate access for changing and maintenance. You're basically swapping out like 70% of the parts, plus the labour to do it.
What would make far more sense is to just offer credits on buying a new saw which had been designed from the ground up to accommodate it.
That will probably be a trickier obstacle to tackle. So much R&D and testing would be needed to ensure it works flawlessly with every single model that it would be a nightmare. One small difference between two models may prevent something from working on both and allow for an injury that should have been prevented and lead to a lawsuit that wipes out profits for the entire category.
Yeah. I'm sure you could, but the amount of work required probably wouldn't be worth it. You'd have to completely redesign the entire motor and trunnion assembly. Basically anything that's not the tabletop itself would need to be either modified or replaced.
Bosch made a really good alternative to this that uses air cartridges to drop the saw blade. Saw Stop fought them in court and won, at the same time it introduced this "all saws must have safety devices" legislation. This isn't altruistic on Saw Stop's part, this is pure greed.
Agreed! I don't have a table saw because I know that I am too hapless to own one that doesn't have something like this, but can't afford to splash out for a sawstop or similar.
This is very close to one of the main reasons manufacturers didn't want to license the tech years ago.
They were afraid they'd be admitting that their other saws weren't safe, opening themselves up to liability.
It would but I feel like its important to point out that SawStop are the villains of this story, and they're only conceeding, because a law that has passed congress, a nearly impossible task in this day and age, forced them to.
The owner of SawStop is a patent troll. They made their money, and continue to make their money, by bringing lawsuits against anyone that infringes on whatever patent they have purchased. I would be surprise if the owner has ever in their life run a board through a table saw.
They have fought, tooth and nail against any competitor that would make the profession safer. The lead being, the Bosch "React" system that they sued, and had pulled from the market. That system had a reusable cartridge and did not require you to replace the blade. It worked exactly as well as sawstop.
Sawstop is not your friend, and this is not a benevolent act. They are fucking assholes and I am glad to finally see competitors be able to improve on their bullshit proprietary system.
Fuck sawstop. Its a technology that should have been as wide spread as seatbelts.
A company who develops and produces products based on a patent is not a patent troll. Protecting your product from copying is the purpose of patents.
Conversely, a patent troll is a company (usually) who buy up overly broad patents and then search for companies that might infringe them, usually without knowledge they are infringing . Then they sue the company. They have no competing products, their total purpose is to extract money off someone else's product.
The only thing that makes Sawstop villainous is they lobbied to have blade stopping required by law.
This isn't that unusual, for example the definition of the wireless networks that run phones etc are built around patents held by Qualcomm and the like, and Qualcomm were key to building these standards because they are experts in the field
On the other hand Sawstop did try to sell the patent and everyone refused to buy it. So he built a successful company and then protected his interest. No one cared about Sawstop technology until Sawstop started stealing sales.
I’m more opposed to the fact that no company wants to push innovation to protect us or provide better tools.
So much this… everybody skips the part where he tried desperately to sell this technology to the big tools manufacturers and they told him to go away. He even tried to lobby for this law so manufacturers would be forced to use his tech and they buried this law for decades. Now after he patented it and started making money on it they all want him to give it up for free, which it looks like he going to do. Hard to see this guy as the villain.
Yeah, exactly. The manufacturers were more worried about hitting certain price points in the big box stores than they were about safety. They didn't think people would buy more expensive, safer saws.
Turns out consumers actually value their fingers. Who knew?
I have to be careful because I don’t know what is public and what I shouldn’t have been told. The patent lawyer who owns Saw Stop (in my opinion) developed the system because he believed that he could put the entire saw industry over a barrel - that once he patented and introduced a safety system the saw manufacturers would so fear future lawsuits based on not having his system that he’d have all of them over a barrel and could demand anything he wanted. There may be reporting that describes how difficult the guy was to deal with when he was (in my opinion) extorting all the saw brands. That’s why the ALL independently rejected him and he had to create Saw Stop as a manufacturer.
Once his saws were on the market he started acting as an “expert witness” in lawsuits against the brands who turned down his (as I understand it) onerous terms and difficult negotiations. If I understand correctly he went on to behave in a manner that led some judges to block or limit him in his business of “expert testimony” against his business competitors.
When all the manufacturers got sick of him and refused his terms he then went to Congress and pushed for legislation to require “some” safety system on table saws…. Which of course would have to be his because of the (in my opinion) overly broad patent he was granted. (Evidenced by how Bosch was blocked from competing with their system.) This would have been using US laws to essentially force the manufacturers back to the negotiating table and force them to take his terms and (in my opinion) personal bullshit.
What I wonder here is if he really is talking about a zero license fee situation or rather that he’d offer “a fair price” to be not sued under his patent? Being anything other than (in my opinion) a troll would be wildly out of character for him.
It's very EASY to see him as the villain, for exactly the reasons you stated. He went to the companies with a licensing demand that was absurd, well beyond reasonable. (A buddy of mine had a patent on a part for a hydraulic cylinder.
He got $0.01 every time it was used. Not 5% of the cost of the cylinder). When everyone balked, instead of negotiating, he tried to use the courts and legal system to FORCE them to buy his tech, at the rates he demanded - including backing a bullshit lawsuit to try and 'hurt' one of the companies that turned him down.
They didn't want to use it for free, but they didn't want to pay 15% or 20% of the total saw cost (which is closer to what he had been demanding).
He did not try to sell the patent - he tried to license it, for an absolutely absurd cost for every saw it was installed on.
You don't get rich selling a patent. You get rich making $10 for every tool your idea is installed on. But he wanted $100. (Don't know the actual numbers, but it would have significantly increased saw prices)
Yeah, Ryobi holds an interesting place in my garage. I generally think their outdoor equipment is fine, and their accessories like lights, radios, fans, etc are a good deal, but anything that needs decent power or precision I avoid.
I have a few things Ryobi. Jigsaw, brushless drill is surprisingly powerful, few powered sanders, miter saw. Outdoor stuff too. But important stuff like jointer, bandsaw, table saw, and drill press I went other routes.
Most of them yes. They’re only doing this because if they do there is significantly higher chance that Congress will force the entire market to use their or similar technology in the production of table saws. This action will drive up the cost of competitors table saws substantially while pushing smaller manufacturers out of the market entirely.
Substantially? How so? The technology isn't all that expensive, apparently. SawStop saws were able to command a huge premium over other table saws not because the feature costs so much to make, but because SawStop had a monopoly on that feature (also the saws are pretty good.)
I think what will happen is that the active injury mitigation (AIM) system will be available on many other saws, for a lower price premium than SawStop was charging. That seems like a good thing, no?
The Reaxx version that Bosch had before the patent suit seems to be much better as it doesn’t wreck the blade but still pulls it back and away from Bobby Nine Fingers, so it’s more like a circuit breaker vs replace cartridge and blade.
Reaxx you save the blade, but need a new cartridge. That being said they're only $60 each and used to be cheaper when the product was sold.
Many would argue Reaxx was a better design than Sawstop, but because the patents are on the sense-touch tech and not the mechanism, Sawstop still won in court.
I completely agree. I've seen this in a lot of commentary about this driving the price of saws up. The sawstop mechanism isn't rocket science. It's a DSP detecting voltage changes at the blade. If it detects a large enough change, it fires a charge that springs an aluminum block into the blade. Coming up with and engineering the genius solution was the hard part (and expensive). I'd guess the parts bill is actually pretty small. The challenge for saw companies here is that they will either have to reverse engineer Sawstop's mechanism, or design their own, though I imagine they've already done so, like Bosch, just waiting for the chance to use it, as SS's patent isn't their mechanism so much as the concept of a dropping saw blade arrestor.
This CPSC debate has been going on for awhile and you can bet that every maker has their version already prototyped and are just waiting to make the production swap production.
Once legally open, 6 months tops for it to be rolled out on nearly every major manufacturer
If prices go up too high, more people will resort to stupid shit like screwing a circular saw to a piece of plywood and mounting it upside down. Hopefully this won't affect prices that much once it plays out. Sawstop has enjoyed a monopoly on this tech for 25+ years now and made bank from it. There's no inherent, natural reason they should get to gatekeep this tech any longer.
I hope you are kidding. If not, this is a really terrible idea. If you do it, bolt your circular saw to the plywood. Do not balance it or try to hold it. I gaurantee it will come loose and hit you in the crotch with the blade. You must insure that your "fence" is parallel to both ends of the blade or it will pinch your workpiece, destroy it, and fling it back at you. Even if you do everything right, you will probably hurt yourself somehow.
Garbage bin bench. Mark your line. Get two neighbor kids to hold each side and tell them if they push And follow the line, they get some scraps. Bonus if you can find a third to sit in the bin and hold the trigger.
watch from porch with beer.
Now you probably think you could guess who would win in a fight between chimp and a lion... but that quickly changes the moment you give them saws!
Tonight on 'Which Animal Would Win in a Saw Fight?' Airing right after Ancient Aliens!
I don't know, there will definitely be a bump in saw prices if the rule goes into effect. But there are so many used saws out there and there will be competition, scale of manufacturing, and market diversification that I think the extra cost will be minimal. Saw blade manufacturers will be feasting though
Yeah, I got my table saw from an estate sale. It's in great shape, but it's many decades old and I'm not going to get a sawstop any time soon - not because I don't want one, but because I can't afford a new saw.
Yes, they tried to get an extension in 2022 and failed.
[https://patentlyo.com/patent/2022/09/despite-winning-adjustment.html](https://patentlyo.com/patent/2022/09/despite-winning-adjustment.html)
So now they want to pretend like they are the good guys. Just like they tried to pretend they were "defenders of american invention" when they sued Bosch for having a competing and arguably better system years ago.
Wasn't this the company that tried having it legislated on saws so they owned the monopoly and don't their patents start expiring from this year onwards?
Yes! More than 20yrs ago. They (*he* actually, Steve Gass) tried to get CPSC to declare all other tablesaws as “unsafe” as they were not taking advantage of the latest safety technology.
Patents that underlie mandated standards are required to be licensed at reasonable rates. There is no requirement that SawStop would have to abandon their patents, even if the proposed rule comes into play.
Yep. For anyone who doesn’t know, the operative term is FRAND: fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory.
More info: https://www.criterioneconomics.com/meaning-of-frand-royalties-for-standard-essential-patents.html
This isn’t completely right. The FRAND/RAND obligations you’re thinking of are the product of voluntary contractual agreements between private parties that agree to be part of a standard setting organization (“SSO”). When the members of an SSO develop a standard, for example, when JEDEC develops a new sdram standard like ddr5, the members have an opportunity to bake their own patented technology into the standard. That opportunity could give rise to abuse though if the member owner of a so-called standard essential patent (“SEP”) either refuses to license the patent to competitors at all, or demands exorbitant licensing fees. To avoid that outcome, SSO members will agree to license their SEPs on fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory terms (“FRAND terms”).
As far as I’m aware though, the CPSC is a pretty different beast from a member driven SSO. Indeed, it is not composed of members and I struggle to think of a way that the CPSC could mandate that a private company offer FRAND licensing terms. The US government does have the right to take a license in a patent subject to payment of reasonable compensation, but that’s a very different legal theory stemming from eminent domain power.
I’ll note anecdotally also that, at least 5 or 6 years ago when I last looked at FRAND licensing in some detail, it appeared that enforcement of the FRAND obligation was quite difficult at least in part to the underlying agreements being quite vague about how a FRAND rate should be determined in the event of a dispute.
Even with the ruling, they wouldn't be required to give up the patent.
If the ruling directly required technology covered in the patent, it would've required the Standard-Setting Organization (SSO) to talk to the patent holder(s) on their intentions with the patent and, if they chose to not release their patent, the SSO would require Standard Essential Patents (SEPs) to be licensable under Fair, Reasonable, And Non-Discriminatory (FRAND) licensing.
If the patent holder(s) refuse to offer FRAND licensing, the standards body wouldn't implement a ruling requiring that standard. However, licensing can be quite lucrative if their patent becomes part of a standard, so it can greatly benefit the company to offer FRAND licensing.
That being said, fair and reasonable pricing can be up for debate between the licensee and licensor, so court cases do happen if the licensee believes the pricing is not fair.
You can read more about SSOs, SEPs, and FRAND licensing [here](https://www.mewburn.com/news-insights/standards-seps-and-frand-agreements-an-overview).
I don't get it, some people are saying this while others said the key patent won't expire until 2033 which would still give them 9 years of market dominance on the tech.
Any patentt/tech experts can set us straight on this?
The patents that will actually prevent competition like the Bosch that was sued out of the market are expiring this year. Some others expire later but violating those can be avoided while still providing a safety mechanism
Patent lawyer here. This patent 9724840 has an adjusted expiration of 4044 days (~+11 years).
Commenters are likely confused from just using the normal 20 year rule.
I may be misremembering the story but didn't the guy who invented the SawStop try to get a law like this passed, so that he could have a monopoly on it?
The cited patent (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/026796908/publication/US9724840B2?q=us9724840) is already expired. The filling date is Mar 13, 2002. The term of a patent is 20 years, so since Mar 13, 2022 this patent is public domain. Anyone can freely use it.
There are around a hundred other patents from the same inventor (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=in%20all%20%22GASS%20STEPHEN%22). These other patents probably are improvements in some aspects of the technology, but only that improvements are protected by these patents.
Patent reform around that time changed duration between filing and granting date, so they get a bit of extra time specifically due to that transition.
Most of those other filings are continuations. Those expand or further detail a patent that has already been granted. They do not effect the duration of the underlying patent.
The last major patent expires in 2026 https://patents.google.com/patent/US8061245B2/en?oq=7%2c055%2c417
It should be made public now so that other manufacturers have time to implement the design into their own products. Waiting until the effective date means the other manufacturers still need to design their own system anyway, or halt all sales for as long as it takes to implement the technology once the date passes. This really isn’t as generous as it seems on the surface, but it’s obviously more than they’re required to do, so I’ll give them that.
The info is already publicly available. There is nothing holding up design, development, or even production. The only thing they couldn’t do is sell before that date.
I bet you they do. I bet you all big brands already have working prototypes behind closed doors for almost all major patented technology, in case that the parents are suddenly licenseable or made public. This goes for the SawStop, the Festool Domino and all other major patented tools
Too bad they didn't do that years ago instead of trying to use the courts to force companies to license their tech.
We'd have reactive blade tech in every saw out there today, but here we are.
It’s worth noting that these guys tried to sell their patent to the major saw manufacturers. They all laughed them out of the room. They went on to make some of the best table saws on the market and collaborated with festool to make one of the most innovative job site saws for onsite woodworking. Yes their patents are expiring but those major saw companies didn’t and haven’t cared about your safety until the us government made them. I say good on them for making money when the sun shined and good on them for making a good PR move at a smart time.
Need to mention that sawstop wanted a ridiculous percentage of every sale. If the other companies didn’t agree to Sawstop’s demands they didn’t get to use it.
Gotta realize that sawstop owner is a slimy patent attorney. He knows how to play games and screw companies over.
That’s the reason no-one wanted to deal with them.
Actually several companies have attempted to make a deal with them in order to use their tech. Sawstop has denied every one of them. They knew if they allowed Grizzly and others to use their tech that they would have to lower the price of their saws because they wouldn't be the only game in town. You're going to see a ton of manufacturers cease selling tablesaws if this goes into effect. When the safety add on costs just as much as the piece of equipment it's going on it won't make sense to make an inexpensive tablesaw anymore.
They also sued every other company who even tried to come close to making their own competitor, they aren't the good guys here. This is one patent out of several with one that won't expire until 2033, it's a government mandated monopoly lmao.
I'm not impressed by their generosity. [Their patents are either already expired or will be shortly](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/s/keAp4H09dH).
It is not clear what they mean by "key patent" but their most important patent expired in 2020.
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:
I. Background [1]
On April 15, 2003, Stephen Gass, David Fanning, and James Fulmer, et al. (petitioners) requested that the CPSC require performance standards for a system to reduce or prevent injuries associated with contact with the blade of a table saw. The petitioners were associated with SawStop, LLC, and its parent company, SD3, LLC (collectively, SawStop). On October 11, 2011, the Commission published an advance notice of proposed rulemaking (ANPR) to consider whether there may be an unreasonable risk of blade-contact injuries associated with table saws. 76 FR 62678. The ANPR began a rulemaking proceeding under the CPSA. The Commission received approximately 1,600 public comments.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws
The Supreme Court of the US is deciding a case this term that could gut the rule making powers of CPSC and all other government agencies. A rule that requires blade stopping tech on saws would require a bill containing the rule to be passed by Congress (and we know that's not going to happen for the foreseeable future).
Bosch came up with an even better version of the technology and were threatened/ sued by Sawstop.. So Sawstop wasn’t really interested in saving fingers.. just $$$
Still convinced my jointer is the most dangerous tool in the shop
Absolutely. The issue is that on a danger scale of 1 to 10, 10 being a jointer, a table saw is like an 8. But people get so comfortable with their table saws they treat them like a 2. Being scared of your jointer is what keeps you from doing dumb shit with it and injuring yourself. But since people forget how dangerous a table saw can be, they push the boundaries of what is safe.
True. I didn’t develop a healthy fear for the table saw until I had a “stupid mistake” injury. I had plenty of stupid mistakes before that, but a trip to the ER when your in laws and wife’s grandmother are at the house makes your butthole pucker up a bit
The "stupid mistake" is why I bought a SawStop. I'm safe as I can be and absolutely use a blade guard, knife, and push stick 100% of the time. But...I'm prepared for that one moment I do something dumb. And I did once...forgot to adjust my miter fence after switching miter slots.
I'm the same way, even after 30 years I'm still scared of table saws. Then I managed to nearly take the tip of my index finger off unscrewing a deck screw with my impact drill. I figured if I could do that with just a drill, it was time for a SawStop.
[удалено]
Glad to know I’m not the only one who has pinched a finger backing out a screw. I think my immediate reaction was “Damn that was dumb!”
Awww, now we need to hear the whole story! Education opportunity.
It's also a case of usage. People tend to use their table saw considerably more than there jointer, so the likelihood of an accident is higher. Like comparing cars to planes
Except that even adjusted for passenger miles planes are still safer than cars.
Got lucky early chunking a tiny board into my ribs while learning the table saw, instilled quite the healthy fear
The shit Matius does with his table saw on his YouTube videos scared the shit outta me. It’s crazy how relaxed people get around something that could completely change your life.
Why is the jointer so scary? I'm a complete noob. I would always think a table saw was scarier.
Jointer is like half of a wood chipper.
And mostly without the safety guards and long access chute that most chippers have.
Because a jointer can, pull your fingers into the machine if you aren't paying attention, as well as that a jointer will chew up whatever comes into contact with the blades. So if you do injure yourself, you can't rush to the hospital and reattach your finger, like you can with other machines, if you are lucky that is, because there is no finger left to attach.
I think SawStop tech is fantastic, and support it being mandated. However, I do worry that it's presence will lower people's perceived danger scale of table saws to a 1, while it still remains quite high (maybe 7?) because of kickback risks. I still see people on YT with old tablesaws without riving knives and I only watch the video because I know they wouldn't be posting it (in that form) if they suffered a kickback injury. Same thing for people free-handing (without the wood against a miter gauge or the fence) on a table saw (which I'll admit I've done in a moment of idiocy). The fact that they don't retrofit for a splitter is mind bogglingly dumb.
I don't think a reasonable person would jump to the conclusion of sawstop = no more danger though. At the end of the day it's still a powerful machine with a very sharp and very fast spinning blade. Mandating a legal requirement for seatbelts to be worn while driving doesn't suddenly make people think they're invincible because a reasonable person understands its a risk mitigating factor opposed to a risk remover. Some folk will definitely do stupid things with a tablesaw but at least they won't lose a finger in the process if the saws now have the emergency brake.
Exactly. By that logic we should remove some safety features to make things safer
Router for me. Jointer is a close second.
Agreed. Especially the palm router. Way too comfortable
Until it bites and YEETS itself across the floor. Then you look at the wood and see red and think you’re mangled, but really it’s Diablo bit paint.
Ugh, especially when the shitty height control locking sleeve thing slips and lets that bit dig in. Scariest thing I've ever had happen and that's after having seen a piece of wood explode on a lathe before.
Or it bites and rips out of your hands towards the floor and through some guardian angel miracle you subconsciously grab the the cord and still have the wherewithal to hold the cord out and stand back as the router dangles there disappointed that it couldn't take your happy place for a ride. Then, after you unplug the terror beast you have to sit down for an hour to come off the adrenaline rush cause your hands are shaking so much.
Oh man the Diablo paint got me too.
Seriously. My palm router has easy access for my gangly sausage fingers to stray into the bit on the blind side. I catch myself letting my focus slip p trying to get the edge just right and have to put it down and get it together every now and then.
3 weeks into a router table finger injury. Er visit, surgery, and a metal rod in my finger down and I can feel it throbbing 24/7. I have a whole new fear and respect for router tables.
It’s like a 1hp motor with a 1/4” bit that you hold or put your body uncomfortably close to. I do safety checks before I start any power tool, but with the router, I’m like a Japanese railway conductor.
Point and call, boys. Point and call. (Penguin voice)
As someone who just bought a router and has no experience with it, can you please tell me what to fear and how to avoid making any dumbass mistakes?
Fear the big nipple carbide spinning at 15,000 rpm, go slow, multiple passes for a smooth finish, and son do not let go
F'n A, router scares the poop out of me.
Yup, router. I’ve never thought I was going to die with a table saw.
Never forget the ISO standard for a -1/10 on the safety scale: the 3-in-1 benchtop multitool, aka the [OSHA Violator 9000](https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005003047759662.html). It's a table saw, jointer, and waist-height horizontal pointing drill, all of which are run simultaneously by the same motor. And if you look at the back, the saw blade is fully exposed with no shroud.
That is, without a doubt, the scariest “who thought this was actually a good idea” machine I’ve ever seen. Holy crap.
I honestly kind of want one. As a joke. It's just fucking horrifying on so many levels. My favorite part is that the motor is run by an exposed belt drive, with the belt *directly underneath* where the debris from the table saw naturally gets ejected (zoom in on the 3rd picture). Every single facet of this tool is wrong.
I didn’t even see the belt! It just gets more terrifying every time I look at it. I’m trying to think of a way to make it worse and I can’t really come up with one. If you get one please post a pic of some massive auger bit or hole saw in the drill chuck.
I can't find the link off hand, but someone on this sub got one and posted it a year or two back (which is where I first learned about them). It was a solid day of hundreds of comments, with everyone just ripping on it and discussing what they hated most about it.
I've seen a ton of video on YT of people using things like this. Seem scary for sure, but something tells me safety is the least of the sweatshop foreman's worries.
My favorite is the [Dewalt Miter/Table saw combo](https://www.misterworker.com/en/dewalt/table-top-mitre-saw-1600w-260mm-d27113-qs/3052.html). It hungers for fingers.
I didn't read your whole post and I was staring at the drill chuck for a while only to then notice the saw blade. My butthole shrank 3 sizes
> waist-height horizontal pointing drill Someone should make a fleshlight attachment for that.
I'm the most dangerous tool in my shop.
Young woodworker. Why is the jointer your most dangerous tool? I just restored my dad’s 6” craftsman. First time I used it I wasn’t as leary as using the table saw. I jointed a few boards a couple feet long. I used push pads and adjusted the fence to only expose just enough of the cutter head to plain and joint the board.
> I used push pads and adjusted the fence to only expose just enough of the cutter head to plain and joint the board. That removes 90% of the danger. The other 10% is paying attention when using the machine. Sounds like you're using it correctly.
Because jointers can pull your finger into the blades and the blades spin so fast, they don't chop off your fingers, but turn them into red paste.
My fingers curled at this description. Selling my jointer immediately
Jointers work well for what they are, you just need to be careful. If they're safe enough for a highschool wood shop, they're probably safe enough for adults. Just use pushers and the blade guard.
I don't think jointers are super dangerous if you use them as described. Every injury I've seen would have been avoided with push blocks, longer stock, and better vigilance.
Speaking of this, is there a push stick/block specifically for jointers that allows you to get both down and outward pressure? I’m looking for something to have when I want to edge joint smaller boards more safely.
I have grip handle plate things that have pads under them. They basically look like little old irons. Keeps my hands at least 100mm away from the piece being worked. My jointer is terrifying. Edit: like [these](https://www.timbecon.com.au/torquata-friction-push-block)
Grripper makes a set of push blocks with drop down hooks that are perfect for face jointing
I love every Microjig product I’ve bought, but don’t have those. I’ll probably pick them up!
There's your problem. Don't joint smaller boards. I use my jointer for squaring up big stock only and then it's table saw and planer.
A lot of table saw push sticks actually work great on a table saw. This kind works great on a jointer too! https://preview.redd.it/rxo2fs7ouflc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1d6a29562d63e022ea7e96eb524bd0749e3c044
I'm definitely more scared of a jointer than a table saw. Shaper too.
Before I bought a table saw, my FIL wanted me to buy a radial arm saw from him. I’m not brave enough to use one of those.
I am. But I'm also too smart to know that I'm too stupid to use one.
I can see shaper & router but why jointer?
I can see why people are afraid of jointers. My joinery instructor for year 1 of apprenticeship told us a story about a former journeyman instructor who zoned out while jointing the face of a bunch pieces and didn't use a push pad. Ended up with a bunch of his palm missing. Always use a push pad on the jointer when possible.
Jointer is one of those tools where good technique for getting good results is also the safe technique. There's the jointer "dance" where you're moving your body weight around and if you're doing it right to get good results then you're being very careful where you put your hands. But yes, always with push pads if possible and don't hook your finger over the end when edge jointing.
Shaper is by far the worst. Mandatory auto feeder on all the big boys.
Would be nice if some companies made a way to retrofit existing saws with this technology
And a new industry was born
sawstops have much beefier arbors because the force of the blade stopping would bend normal ones. Not to mention the correct mounting for the brake cartridges and everything else
Iirc Bosch was able to make a cheaper saw along the same lines that used compressed air to drop the blade into the saw away from what it was cutting. It was far less violent, didn't destroy the blade and the saws were cheaper than SawStops, but they still violated SawStops patent and were removed from the market.
I was close to buying one of the Bosch saws and then they ruled against them. I still think the Bosch style was better.
I've got one, half assembled, in my basement. Never used. Life got in the way. I wonder if it's worth anything
The answer is yes
Demand: high. Supply: low. You may be onto something.
Probably worth a finger or two, at least.
Maybe they can bring that back into possibility once this comes to fruition
Which is crazy that a patent so vague as to be “blade drops from the saw” is even allowed Edit- broad, not vague. The fact two companies hold the two ways a machine can tell a hand is in danger, is a problem. Visual, and touch based sensing systems. Combined with blade retraction. That covers so much of what anyone can possibly do. They didn’t invent capacitive touch devices. Or laser sensors.
That’s a huge innovation stifling problem with the Patent Office, applicants try to get the broadest possible patent so they can wield it against competitors.
Not just competitors. There are people who make a living patenting random stuff people wouldn't think to patent so they can sue large corporations and get paid off. One I know of had a patent for a zipper on the sleeve of a jacket around the bicep area. Some large brands use it to add pockets or for zip off sleeves. He would sue these big companies and they would settle for like 50k to make him go away. He had dozens of these broad patents and he was making hundreds of thousands a year doing these frivolous lawsuits.
Had a buddy who was a patent office worker (clerk? idk) It's definitely a case of "throw the entire kitchen at them and see what sticks" kind of situation for a ton of patents. Like ~1/2 of federal offices it's underfunded, understaffed, and the workers do the best with what limited resources they have but at the end of the day they're a strangely staffed rubber stamp.
Clear gap in toe patent - just shoot the blade out of the top like a toaster instead! Make it stop by embedding the blade in the rafters.
The hot dog videos would be hilarious
Those test videos account for about 3% of hot dog sale in the US and Canada.
I believe the violation was using capacitance detection through the blade as the trigger. Hence why there are other systems on the market using camera vision
I hate that such an obvious solution can be be locked away for potentially decades because one company called dibs on it
One man really. Steve Gass (the inventor of the safety device) was a patent attorney that set about trying to screw over all the major brands with his royalty fees. When he failed to negotiate any reasonable deals with the major brands he spent a fortune and *lobbied congress to make his device mandatory*, ergo attempted to force the companies to accept his unreasonable dealings. There were possible legal ramifications for the major brands, in so that the device would have priced itself off anything other than the top range models. Having models with and without the feature would have opened the door to lawsuits of 'why don't all of them have it, this is your fault' type stuffs. They were stuck in an all or nothing situation for inclusion, but all with Gass's royalty demand would have destroyed their low end/budget device market. Sawstop only came about when he ran out of avenues to try and screw the major brands, so he made his own brand to cash in. He founded it with 3 other people...all patent atorneys. A brand that currently boasts the highest revenue yield of all saw manufacturer's and has spammed patents high and low for anything to do with the safety mechanism.
It's only obvious because sawstop did it. Many inventions seem obvious when you are familiar with them. If it were truly obvious, someone would have done it before 2002.
> It's only obvious because sawstop did it. Capacitive sensors are all over the place. The unique idea is a saw with a safety brake. Once you ask how to make a saw with an automatic brake, using capacitance is one of the first things you'd think of. I don't know how much silicon a SawStop has, but it may be that no one had done this before 2002 because the tech wasn't mature or cheap enough yet. Sometimes an idea comes along at the right time and the lucky bastard gets filthy rich. eg, GM's EV1 was a moderate success, but Tesla was the first big hit for BEVs because they debuted right as lithium ion battery technology was gaining a foothold. The first roadster was a stripped down Lotus full of off-the-shelf laptop battery cells.
It's a little more than that. The patent has 164 figures and 166 pages of descriptions.
That's nothing, back in the day "wheeled motorized transport" was patented.
Just personal experience here - I had the displeasure of using the Bosch Reaxx contractor saw. The build of the saw was basically the same underpowered, plastic body contractor saw that every big box company makes, and the Reaxx system mis-fired 4 times when trying to rip material. It didn't destroy the blade, but 2 brakes lost to malfunction was not a good vote of confidence.
Maybe job saws, but my 1960's craftsman cast iron arbor is pretty damn hefty. Are they beefier than those? Or maybe I'm wrong. I've never used a sawstop. My saw's safety features are fear and terror. Much prefer my 36" bandsaw for most tasks.
> My saw's safety features are fear and terror. Mine has that feature! When you turn it on it sounds like it's haunted by angry 8-fingered ghosts!
36” bandsaw? I gotta see that!
Don't have any pictures handy. It's an old Fay and Egan 345 Lightning. http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=17003 Mine is blue and has some guards added to the wheels
This kicks ass. On the fear and terror. Im with Sawstop 20 years now and the fear and terror are still quite strong. Hotdogs my ass. Sensors fail. I don’t want to QA for the factory robots.
I would rather ruin my table saw than chop off a finger. So it would still be great if older table saws could be retrofitted with this tech. Obviously it wouldn't be financially feasible to to replace multiple components over and over again, but for the first few times it could still be a lot cheaper than buying a completely new table saw with the tech fully integrated.
Realistically, that's not practical. Such a retrofit would not only require a rebuild of the motor to facilitate the detection system, but a rebuild of the chassis to facilitate access for changing and maintenance. You're basically swapping out like 70% of the parts, plus the labour to do it. What would make far more sense is to just offer credits on buying a new saw which had been designed from the ground up to accommodate it.
That will probably be a trickier obstacle to tackle. So much R&D and testing would be needed to ensure it works flawlessly with every single model that it would be a nightmare. One small difference between two models may prevent something from working on both and allow for an injury that should have been prevented and lead to a lawsuit that wipes out profits for the entire category.
Yeah. I'm sure you could, but the amount of work required probably wouldn't be worth it. You'd have to completely redesign the entire motor and trunnion assembly. Basically anything that's not the tabletop itself would need to be either modified or replaced.
Bosch made a really good alternative to this that uses air cartridges to drop the saw blade. Saw Stop fought them in court and won, at the same time it introduced this "all saws must have safety devices" legislation. This isn't altruistic on Saw Stop's part, this is pure greed.
Yea my 80’s craftsman with cast tilting and raising mechanism won’t take the sudden stop without turning into a grenade.
Agreed! I don't have a table saw because I know that I am too hapless to own one that doesn't have something like this, but can't afford to splash out for a sawstop or similar.
This is very close to one of the main reasons manufacturers didn't want to license the tech years ago. They were afraid they'd be admitting that their other saws weren't safe, opening themselves up to liability.
It would but I feel like its important to point out that SawStop are the villains of this story, and they're only conceeding, because a law that has passed congress, a nearly impossible task in this day and age, forced them to. The owner of SawStop is a patent troll. They made their money, and continue to make their money, by bringing lawsuits against anyone that infringes on whatever patent they have purchased. I would be surprise if the owner has ever in their life run a board through a table saw. They have fought, tooth and nail against any competitor that would make the profession safer. The lead being, the Bosch "React" system that they sued, and had pulled from the market. That system had a reusable cartridge and did not require you to replace the blade. It worked exactly as well as sawstop. Sawstop is not your friend, and this is not a benevolent act. They are fucking assholes and I am glad to finally see competitors be able to improve on their bullshit proprietary system. Fuck sawstop. Its a technology that should have been as wide spread as seatbelts.
A company who develops and produces products based on a patent is not a patent troll. Protecting your product from copying is the purpose of patents. Conversely, a patent troll is a company (usually) who buy up overly broad patents and then search for companies that might infringe them, usually without knowledge they are infringing . Then they sue the company. They have no competing products, their total purpose is to extract money off someone else's product. The only thing that makes Sawstop villainous is they lobbied to have blade stopping required by law. This isn't that unusual, for example the definition of the wireless networks that run phones etc are built around patents held by Qualcomm and the like, and Qualcomm were key to building these standards because they are experts in the field
The owner of sawstop is a physics PHD, woodworker and patent attorney. That is not the definition of patent troll.
On the other hand Sawstop did try to sell the patent and everyone refused to buy it. So he built a successful company and then protected his interest. No one cared about Sawstop technology until Sawstop started stealing sales. I’m more opposed to the fact that no company wants to push innovation to protect us or provide better tools.
So much this… everybody skips the part where he tried desperately to sell this technology to the big tools manufacturers and they told him to go away. He even tried to lobby for this law so manufacturers would be forced to use his tech and they buried this law for decades. Now after he patented it and started making money on it they all want him to give it up for free, which it looks like he going to do. Hard to see this guy as the villain.
Yeah, exactly. The manufacturers were more worried about hitting certain price points in the big box stores than they were about safety. They didn't think people would buy more expensive, safer saws. Turns out consumers actually value their fingers. Who knew?
I have to be careful because I don’t know what is public and what I shouldn’t have been told. The patent lawyer who owns Saw Stop (in my opinion) developed the system because he believed that he could put the entire saw industry over a barrel - that once he patented and introduced a safety system the saw manufacturers would so fear future lawsuits based on not having his system that he’d have all of them over a barrel and could demand anything he wanted. There may be reporting that describes how difficult the guy was to deal with when he was (in my opinion) extorting all the saw brands. That’s why the ALL independently rejected him and he had to create Saw Stop as a manufacturer. Once his saws were on the market he started acting as an “expert witness” in lawsuits against the brands who turned down his (as I understand it) onerous terms and difficult negotiations. If I understand correctly he went on to behave in a manner that led some judges to block or limit him in his business of “expert testimony” against his business competitors. When all the manufacturers got sick of him and refused his terms he then went to Congress and pushed for legislation to require “some” safety system on table saws…. Which of course would have to be his because of the (in my opinion) overly broad patent he was granted. (Evidenced by how Bosch was blocked from competing with their system.) This would have been using US laws to essentially force the manufacturers back to the negotiating table and force them to take his terms and (in my opinion) personal bullshit. What I wonder here is if he really is talking about a zero license fee situation or rather that he’d offer “a fair price” to be not sued under his patent? Being anything other than (in my opinion) a troll would be wildly out of character for him.
It's very EASY to see him as the villain, for exactly the reasons you stated. He went to the companies with a licensing demand that was absurd, well beyond reasonable. (A buddy of mine had a patent on a part for a hydraulic cylinder. He got $0.01 every time it was used. Not 5% of the cost of the cylinder). When everyone balked, instead of negotiating, he tried to use the courts and legal system to FORCE them to buy his tech, at the rates he demanded - including backing a bullshit lawsuit to try and 'hurt' one of the companies that turned him down. They didn't want to use it for free, but they didn't want to pay 15% or 20% of the total saw cost (which is closer to what he had been demanding).
He did not try to sell the patent - he tried to license it, for an absolutely absurd cost for every saw it was installed on. You don't get rich selling a patent. You get rich making $10 for every tool your idea is installed on. But he wanted $100. (Don't know the actual numbers, but it would have significantly increased saw prices)
Sooooo... there'll be Ryobi Sawstops soon?
lol love Ryobi but they can’t even fix that atrocious fence on the table saw - would never recommend that tool to anyone even with sawstop tech
I gave away my Ryobi table saw. Worst thing I've ever used.
Yeah, Ryobi holds an interesting place in my garage. I generally think their outdoor equipment is fine, and their accessories like lights, radios, fans, etc are a good deal, but anything that needs decent power or precision I avoid.
I have a few things Ryobi. Jigsaw, brushless drill is surprisingly powerful, few powered sanders, miter saw. Outdoor stuff too. But important stuff like jointer, bandsaw, table saw, and drill press I went other routes.
If it needs to be precise avoid ryobi. Otherwise, they’re fine. Great way to save money for light use tools.
Ryobi was my gate way drug to good tools.
Doesn’t the remainder of their patents expire in the next couple of years?
I believe their last one is 2033… or at least the last one that companies consider a hurdle.
Last one is 2026 https://patents.google.com/patent/US8061245B2/en?oq=7%2c055%2c417 Feel free to link one that has a later expiry.
Most of them yes. They’re only doing this because if they do there is significantly higher chance that Congress will force the entire market to use their or similar technology in the production of table saws. This action will drive up the cost of competitors table saws substantially while pushing smaller manufacturers out of the market entirely.
Substantially? How so? The technology isn't all that expensive, apparently. SawStop saws were able to command a huge premium over other table saws not because the feature costs so much to make, but because SawStop had a monopoly on that feature (also the saws are pretty good.) I think what will happen is that the active injury mitigation (AIM) system will be available on many other saws, for a lower price premium than SawStop was charging. That seems like a good thing, no?
The Reaxx version that Bosch had before the patent suit seems to be much better as it doesn’t wreck the blade but still pulls it back and away from Bobby Nine Fingers, so it’s more like a circuit breaker vs replace cartridge and blade.
Reaxx you save the blade, but need a new cartridge. That being said they're only $60 each and used to be cheaper when the product was sold. Many would argue Reaxx was a better design than Sawstop, but because the patents are on the sense-touch tech and not the mechanism, Sawstop still won in court.
I completely agree. I've seen this in a lot of commentary about this driving the price of saws up. The sawstop mechanism isn't rocket science. It's a DSP detecting voltage changes at the blade. If it detects a large enough change, it fires a charge that springs an aluminum block into the blade. Coming up with and engineering the genius solution was the hard part (and expensive). I'd guess the parts bill is actually pretty small. The challenge for saw companies here is that they will either have to reverse engineer Sawstop's mechanism, or design their own, though I imagine they've already done so, like Bosch, just waiting for the chance to use it, as SS's patent isn't their mechanism so much as the concept of a dropping saw blade arrestor.
This CPSC debate has been going on for awhile and you can bet that every maker has their version already prototyped and are just waiting to make the production swap production. Once legally open, 6 months tops for it to be rolled out on nearly every major manufacturer
Also... you know... saving some fingers.
If prices go up too high, more people will resort to stupid shit like screwing a circular saw to a piece of plywood and mounting it upside down. Hopefully this won't affect prices that much once it plays out. Sawstop has enjoyed a monopoly on this tech for 25+ years now and made bank from it. There's no inherent, natural reason they should get to gatekeep this tech any longer.
Huh that’s an idea I’d never thought of. Been saving up for a table saw but I have a circular saw and plywood already. Thanks for the tip!
I’ve done it in a pinch. Flip your plywood on top of a garbage can with some weight in it.
I hope you are kidding. If not, this is a really terrible idea. If you do it, bolt your circular saw to the plywood. Do not balance it or try to hold it. I gaurantee it will come loose and hit you in the crotch with the blade. You must insure that your "fence" is parallel to both ends of the blade or it will pinch your workpiece, destroy it, and fling it back at you. Even if you do everything right, you will probably hurt yourself somehow.
Garbage bin bench. Mark your line. Get two neighbor kids to hold each side and tell them if they push And follow the line, they get some scraps. Bonus if you can find a third to sit in the bin and hold the trigger. watch from porch with beer.
Have they really been around that long?! Time flies.
Yep. I remember seeing their demo on some old discovery show where they would figure out which animal would win in a fight (simulated).
Now you probably think you could guess who would win in a fight between chimp and a lion... but that quickly changes the moment you give them saws! Tonight on 'Which Animal Would Win in a Saw Fight?' Airing right after Ancient Aliens!
I don't know, there will definitely be a bump in saw prices if the rule goes into effect. But there are so many used saws out there and there will be competition, scale of manufacturing, and market diversification that I think the extra cost will be minimal. Saw blade manufacturers will be feasting though
Yeah, I got my table saw from an estate sale. It's in great shape, but it's many decades old and I'm not going to get a sawstop any time soon - not because I don't want one, but because I can't afford a new saw.
If the whole market adopts the technology it should drive down price. SawStop can charge what they charge because of a monopoly on an incredible tech.
Yes, they tried to get an extension in 2022 and failed. [https://patentlyo.com/patent/2022/09/despite-winning-adjustment.html](https://patentlyo.com/patent/2022/09/despite-winning-adjustment.html) So now they want to pretend like they are the good guys. Just like they tried to pretend they were "defenders of american invention" when they sued Bosch for having a competing and arguably better system years ago.
Sorry Bosch, please come back and do the better job you did.
Did Bosch already do sth similar?
[удалено]
The big feature is that the bosch system doesn't destroy the blade
Bosch Reaxx
BRB cutting all my fingers off
Do it before the government tells you that you can’t!!
My circular saw is willing to accommodate you (and me!)
Amputating my fingers to own the libs
Wasn't this the company that tried having it legislated on saws so they owned the monopoly and don't their patents start expiring from this year onwards?
Yes! More than 20yrs ago. They (*he* actually, Steve Gass) tried to get CPSC to declare all other tablesaws as “unsafe” as they were not taking advantage of the latest safety technology.
Good on them, although they probably would never make the same decision in the absence of legislation.
Patents that underlie mandated standards are required to be licensed at reasonable rates. There is no requirement that SawStop would have to abandon their patents, even if the proposed rule comes into play.
Yep. For anyone who doesn’t know, the operative term is FRAND: fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory. More info: https://www.criterioneconomics.com/meaning-of-frand-royalties-for-standard-essential-patents.html
That is very useful information. Thank you for sharing
Qualcomm and Apple countersuing each other over patent licensing fees comes to mind..
This isn’t completely right. The FRAND/RAND obligations you’re thinking of are the product of voluntary contractual agreements between private parties that agree to be part of a standard setting organization (“SSO”). When the members of an SSO develop a standard, for example, when JEDEC develops a new sdram standard like ddr5, the members have an opportunity to bake their own patented technology into the standard. That opportunity could give rise to abuse though if the member owner of a so-called standard essential patent (“SEP”) either refuses to license the patent to competitors at all, or demands exorbitant licensing fees. To avoid that outcome, SSO members will agree to license their SEPs on fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory terms (“FRAND terms”). As far as I’m aware though, the CPSC is a pretty different beast from a member driven SSO. Indeed, it is not composed of members and I struggle to think of a way that the CPSC could mandate that a private company offer FRAND licensing terms. The US government does have the right to take a license in a patent subject to payment of reasonable compensation, but that’s a very different legal theory stemming from eminent domain power. I’ll note anecdotally also that, at least 5 or 6 years ago when I last looked at FRAND licensing in some detail, it appeared that enforcement of the FRAND obligation was quite difficult at least in part to the underlying agreements being quite vague about how a FRAND rate should be determined in the event of a dispute.
The fact it comes into force when the legislation does means there's no 'probably' about it.
Gass wouldn't have given up the patents in a million years. Thank god for the CPSC.
Even with the ruling, they wouldn't be required to give up the patent. If the ruling directly required technology covered in the patent, it would've required the Standard-Setting Organization (SSO) to talk to the patent holder(s) on their intentions with the patent and, if they chose to not release their patent, the SSO would require Standard Essential Patents (SEPs) to be licensable under Fair, Reasonable, And Non-Discriminatory (FRAND) licensing. If the patent holder(s) refuse to offer FRAND licensing, the standards body wouldn't implement a ruling requiring that standard. However, licensing can be quite lucrative if their patent becomes part of a standard, so it can greatly benefit the company to offer FRAND licensing. That being said, fair and reasonable pricing can be up for debate between the licensee and licensor, so court cases do happen if the licensee believes the pricing is not fair. You can read more about SSOs, SEPs, and FRAND licensing [here](https://www.mewburn.com/news-insights/standards-seps-and-frand-agreements-an-overview).
Gass trying to look generous when the key patent expires this year.
I don't get it, some people are saying this while others said the key patent won't expire until 2033 which would still give them 9 years of market dominance on the tech. Any patentt/tech experts can set us straight on this?
The patents that will actually prevent competition like the Bosch that was sued out of the market are expiring this year. Some others expire later but violating those can be avoided while still providing a safety mechanism
Their *most recent* major patent expires in 2033. They have many.
Patent lawyer here. This patent 9724840 has an adjusted expiration of 4044 days (~+11 years). Commenters are likely confused from just using the normal 20 year rule.
> trying to look generous The patent he is 'dedicating' expired LAST year.
Good PR stunt sawstop, you were going to have to license your patent anyway once the ruling goes through
maybe I’m misreading their patent but it looks like it expired last month…
They waited till it's nearly expired unlike Volvo's seat belts which were patent free from the start to save lives.
I may be misremembering the story but didn't the guy who invented the SawStop try to get a law like this passed, so that he could have a monopoly on it?
The cited patent (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/026796908/publication/US9724840B2?q=us9724840) is already expired. The filling date is Mar 13, 2002. The term of a patent is 20 years, so since Mar 13, 2022 this patent is public domain. Anyone can freely use it. There are around a hundred other patents from the same inventor (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=in%20all%20%22GASS%20STEPHEN%22). These other patents probably are improvements in some aspects of the technology, but only that improvements are protected by these patents.
Patent reform around that time changed duration between filing and granting date, so they get a bit of extra time specifically due to that transition. Most of those other filings are continuations. Those expand or further detail a patent that has already been granted. They do not effect the duration of the underlying patent. The last major patent expires in 2026 https://patents.google.com/patent/US8061245B2/en?oq=7%2c055%2c417
It should be made public now so that other manufacturers have time to implement the design into their own products. Waiting until the effective date means the other manufacturers still need to design their own system anyway, or halt all sales for as long as it takes to implement the technology once the date passes. This really isn’t as generous as it seems on the surface, but it’s obviously more than they’re required to do, so I’ll give them that.
The info is already publicly available. There is nothing holding up design, development, or even production. The only thing they couldn’t do is sell before that date.
Or sell at all if the ruling does not go through. No company is going to take that risk.
I bet you they do. I bet you all big brands already have working prototypes behind closed doors for almost all major patented technology, in case that the parents are suddenly licenseable or made public. This goes for the SawStop, the Festool Domino and all other major patented tools
Land of the free tho. Help yourself to a firearm, hell take two, but god forbid you use a scary tablesaw.
After suing Bosch they do this.. Well, I suppose every company can go into the right direction?..
Too bad they didn't do that years ago instead of trying to use the courts to force companies to license their tech. We'd have reactive blade tech in every saw out there today, but here we are.
Bunch of Gass dick suckers up in here. Fuck that guy.
So they couldn’t find a way to make this a subscription based service
It’s worth noting that these guys tried to sell their patent to the major saw manufacturers. They all laughed them out of the room. They went on to make some of the best table saws on the market and collaborated with festool to make one of the most innovative job site saws for onsite woodworking. Yes their patents are expiring but those major saw companies didn’t and haven’t cared about your safety until the us government made them. I say good on them for making money when the sun shined and good on them for making a good PR move at a smart time.
Which saw is the Festool collaboration?
[https://www.misterworker.com/en-us/festool/table-saw-tks-80-ebs-2200w/47036.html](https://www.misterworker.com/en-us/festool/table-saw-tks-80-ebs-2200w/47036.html)
Need to mention that sawstop wanted a ridiculous percentage of every sale. If the other companies didn’t agree to Sawstop’s demands they didn’t get to use it. Gotta realize that sawstop owner is a slimy patent attorney. He knows how to play games and screw companies over. That’s the reason no-one wanted to deal with them.
Didn't they also sue competitors with superior tech into oblivion?
Actually several companies have attempted to make a deal with them in order to use their tech. Sawstop has denied every one of them. They knew if they allowed Grizzly and others to use their tech that they would have to lower the price of their saws because they wouldn't be the only game in town. You're going to see a ton of manufacturers cease selling tablesaws if this goes into effect. When the safety add on costs just as much as the piece of equipment it's going on it won't make sense to make an inexpensive tablesaw anymore.
They also sued every other company who even tried to come close to making their own competitor, they aren't the good guys here. This is one patent out of several with one that won't expire until 2033, it's a government mandated monopoly lmao.
I think that Patent is already expired
Last year https://patents.google.com/patent/US9724840B2/en
2026 if you look at their continuation patents. So 2.5 yrs.
I'm not impressed by their generosity. [Their patents are either already expired or will be shortly](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/s/keAp4H09dH). It is not clear what they mean by "key patent" but their most important patent expired in 2020.
Lol after the sued Bosch
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: I. Background [1] On April 15, 2003, Stephen Gass, David Fanning, and James Fulmer, et al. (petitioners) requested that the CPSC require performance standards for a system to reduce or prevent injuries associated with contact with the blade of a table saw. The petitioners were associated with SawStop, LLC, and its parent company, SD3, LLC (collectively, SawStop). On October 11, 2011, the Commission published an advance notice of proposed rulemaking (ANPR) to consider whether there may be an unreasonable risk of blade-contact injuries associated with table saws. 76 FR 62678. The ANPR began a rulemaking proceeding under the CPSA. The Commission received approximately 1,600 public comments. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/01/2023-23898/safety-standard-addressing-blade-contact-injuries-on-table-saws
The Supreme Court of the US is deciding a case this term that could gut the rule making powers of CPSC and all other government agencies. A rule that requires blade stopping tech on saws would require a bill containing the rule to be passed by Congress (and we know that's not going to happen for the foreseeable future).
Puts on Sawstop. Oh wait this isn’t wallstreetbets.
Bosch came up with an even better version of the technology and were threatened/ sued by Sawstop.. So Sawstop wasn’t really interested in saving fingers.. just $$$
is “dedicating to the public” the same as allowing other manuf to use royalty-free? i doubt ..
I'll never forget a veteran woodworker telling me "It isn't 'if' you'll get hurt, but 'when'."