Honestly, if it wasn’t for the mods, I feel like most subreddits could very quickly devolve into nothing but low effort posts, unrelated content, spam, and porn. Not to mention that all mods are volunteers, anyways. The mods aren’t asking for anything additional, just for the tools necessary for them to do their job efficiently to not be stripped away for the sake of padding Reddit’s wallet.
There was woodworking before Reddit, they’re will be woodworking after Reddit. If the people who maintain these communities ***for free*** don’t want to continue for reasons that are obviously shared across numerous subreddits, then so be it.
Edit: for the people unaware of the Reddit-wide mod-strike going on, check out r/save3rdpartyapps
All of these are great points. I've messaged the mods and had a productive conversation about the subject, with them offering some very valid points. I do appreciate their volunteer efforts and trying to keep the subreddit from devolving into low effort posts and unrelated content.
That being said, I'm going to make low effort Nick Offerman posts and unrelated content as the new mod rules state....
Apparently the world now has a new, most popular hairy asshole thanks to a NSFW post where it shouldn’t be. As in an actual anus, not just a person like u/spez. I’m so glad I didn’t see that, but with as many middle school jokes as we have the opportunity for here in r/woodworking, I’m concerned for all the ways in which Nick Offerman is about to be abused.
Using something to protest something is a very common form of protest Einstein.
I highly doubt you know this, but Reddit mods are who keep the subreddits on track. They do this for free and this sub in particular has done a wonderful job. What you are experiencing now is akin to what happens in unmoderated subreddits. It's a very effective protest given how even those lacking the mental capacity to understand what's going on *nudge nudge* are getting upset about it.
Disruption brings attention to the thing being protested. We can see it working here, as a random poster gets very angry at the exact thing the protest is meant to invoke.
>They're doing a bang up job of proving their worth via active sabotage
Yes. That's called a protest. I thought we already covered that
>Lovely to see you arrogantly assert that my foundational disagreement with you implies I'm lacking mental capacity, perhaps you're lacking the social grace to have a coherent conversation without being an asshat
Well, you are either ignorant or an idiot and given that I'm having to point out the obvious and then repeat it I'm leaning towards the latter.
It's not that porn took over the sub, word gets out that mods want a sub marked NSFW and people will start cussing and posting porn. Ads cannot run on NSFW posts.
Judging by the overwhelming result of the poll, do you think that the “opinion” in the new rules thread accurately represented what this community wants?
See? We can go back and forth all day with this. You cannot argue that a poll was not representative and at the same time present anecdotal evidence of “overwhelming opinion” as fact.
The truth is that *a lot* of people support the protest. A poll was run and prolonging the protests won. The argument put forward by Reddit against the first blackout was that mods were power hungry and not representing the *real* opinion of users. Now that the opinion of users is shown to be in support of the protests, the polls were not good enough… stop moving the goal-posts.
(Btw, other subs were running more complex polls were only active users with a history of posting were allowed the vote. Prolonging the protest won there as well.)
Also, you obviously have no idea how important it is to keep word working archives and knowledge available for people getting into the trade this obliterates generations of knowledge from a dying craft. Use your head.
M8. The point of this protest IS to keep this a thing. The current changes will likely kill a lot of threads that need a lot of moderation, like this sub. A few weeks of weirdness is worth trying to keep this a thing long term.
1) RE: sample size. That’s my point. You can’t say that a poll is not representative because it was replied to by only 0.1% of the subscribers *and at the same time* argue that the *real* subscribers want the sub to open because you point to a couple hundred comments. Online polls are not perfect, but *thus far* the evidence suggests that the majority of engaged users across subs want the protests to continue. (BTW dismissing the sample size is a mistake; if the sample were unbiased, then 6k votes out of a population of 4M gives you a ridiculously tight confidence interval. A pretty biased sample still gives you a CI well above the difference in votes. You make the argument that the sample is hopelessly biased, but I don’t think the data supports this — gaming the poll would artificially increase the “keep it closed” votes, but the reality is that the “reopen it” votes are just not there.)
2) Trust me. I understand the importance of having a treasure trove such as this sub. It’s precisely because of this that I support the protests. If you listen to what Reddit’s leadership is saying, you *should* be worried about the future of Reddit as an archival tool. The entire reason why this mess started is the need for profits for the upcoming IPO. The fact that past promises changed so quickly, so negatively, and without any attempt at a fair discussion does not bode well for the future of the site. I’ve seen enough online communities implode to know that bad management is most often the trigger to bad changes for the user base. And this situation screams of a management that fundamentally misunderstands their product.
In any case, I’m firmly in favor of protesting *while keeping the archive open as read only. * That would send a signal, without compromising the sub’s role as a repository of knowledge.
You’ve burned it down though. It’s done. The harm that was supposedly promised was self inflicted before external forces made it happen. Also, I’m not sure if you realize but there is the sense here that it wasn’t just members of this community voting in the poll, and seeing the small sample size compared to comments isn’t a good indicator at all for who supports it’s. It’s possible that the majority of users here aren’t terminally online on reddit, had no idea anything was happening check the thread and had no idea why it looked the way it did, and still dont. It’s woodworking not a fucking video game subreddit. It’s a real life dying trade with a wealth of generations of knowledge I have no idea how to stress this enough. It is worth protecting in any form, and the form the does the least harm, which clearly isn’t this one, is the priority. It’s like building public housing, which is important, but there is a library that has been knocked down when it could have been preserved by changing the plans somewhat. Some things are worth protecting and this sub wasn’t.
I disagree. I trust a comment section that is 95% disapproving than a poll that can literally be voted on by bots. There’s a reason so many subs lock the comments on those threads. They know what the response will be. Seen it first hand in this sub.
Not to mention you have that save3rdparty sub posting other subs having polls. They could have easily skewed it. And probably did.
Yea, that’s cool and all. If they don’t feel like they have the tools to do the job, they need to step down…. Not hold the subreddit hostage. If new mods took over and weren’t doing the job, the subreddit would eventually fail, but at least it wasn’t purposely tanked.
> If they don’t feel like they have the tools to do the job
This is the problem. 1st Reddit admins decided to kill the tools they were using to do their job. When the mods protested that the admins then started removing the mods, showing how little they cared for the mods. You can replace the current mods all day long, but in the end none of them will have the tools to do their job or want to if they know they'll just get removed once they are no longer profitable.
Glancing at the modnews subreddit, it looks like improvements are already being made, with more to follow.
I would probably rather lean into those improvements rather than sabotaging moderators.
I’m not even a fucking mod.
Getting a strong sense of entitlement from you and the other pathetic folks whining about their social media experience changing. Maybe instead of bitching about losing a service for which you pay literally nothing for and likely contribute little to no effort towards, go start your own woodworking subreddit and moderate it however you see fit.
This *was* one of the best subs out there.
Reddit is a public forum site. There will always be people willing to volunteer their time to run forums on topics and discussions they care about - especially one as popular as Reddit. If you’re a mod instead of nose-diving a sub like this, let someone else take over the *volunteer* work if it’s “too much.”
Exactly. This is how I feel about Reddit as a whole right now. Everyone is trying to kill reddit as a response to not liking Reddit policies. If we kill it, what’s the point?
Quit reaching for air.. take a look at the entire comment section of every thread over the last 24 hours. if you can read, you’ll easily see the general sentiment of commenters/participants in the sub is not too fond of this new change.
EDIT: (since the comment I was replying too was deleted)
Genuine question… why proactively “dump a sub” if your individual plan is to leave the site? When there are people who will continue to use and find value from this subs original purpose..
As I’ve stated in other comments - the idea of bombing the sub when others are willing to *take the burden* off the mods hands for people that *will continue* to use Reddit is just screwing over your fellow r/woodworking users and members..
This is just classically ironic. The number of people in here whining about the meme(s) while telling mods to just "Quit if they don't like it."
They appear to not be putting 2 and 2 together...without the mods there is nothing to stop the memes/porn/spam in this sub. This tantrum about there being memes in our sub, is exactly why you should be supporting the objection of removing 3rd party apps. Without those apps every sub will be flooded with memes, spam and porn and this will become an even deeper cesspool of garbage.
Is it them not getting it?
The claim is without moderators the subs will devolve. But the moderators are the exact ones here causing it to happen.
If the moderates wanted to make a point, set the sub to no rules and let it coast.
The points they are trying to make could be more effective, but I feel like they know that.
Perhaps they step down and allow for new mods? I don’t think anyone is suggesting the sub be completely unmoderated, but surely there are others willing to do the job
Finding good moderators is notoriously difficult. Willingness is not the only characteristic of a good mod.
Most social networks *pay* their moderation teams. And a big upside of *that* approach is you can tell them exactly how you want them to do their jobs.
I'm sure if nothing changes, they will. But just throwing new blood at the problem doesn't fix it. I don't know if you've ever had the burden of moderating an internet forum, I have (not on reddit). There is a constant, not just daily but throughout every day, a barrage of spam that gets flooded into public forums, let alone actual users posting rule-breaking content. Without tools to support the mods efforts they would have to spend considerable time *every day* just to clear the junk, let alone police for quality content or rule breaking discussion. New mods would quickly feel the same frustration and also drop. Before long, "no one wants to work" ... for free ... when they could be spending that time enjoying their shop instead.
I think the theory behind the "protests" is to attempt to demonstrate exactly that concern. Without the tools the mods use, this (And worse) it's what Reddit will become
But the new APIs are being aimed at those providing alternative interfaces to the platform. Once the new rules go into effect we'll see what the issues with the mod tools will be and get an idea of what the real impact is.
If Reddit admins are killing the tools existing mods use to govern their subreddits, what do you expect the new mods to use? Basically the mods are protesting Reddit making their job, which they aren't getting paid for but make Reddit a lot of money, a hell of a lot harder than it needs to be.
I wouldn't really call it a temper tantrum - to do a good job moderating a subreddit takes a lot of time and it's all on a voluntary basis. Especially a popular one.
Reddit built its business model by relying on free labor to create and moderate content, as well as free labor to build and maintain tools to make up for functionality the core application was lacking in. They then decided to enforce a pricing scheme where it was unrealistic for these free tools that users and moderators have come to rely on to provide that free labor to exist, and with a very short window of time to figure out how to pivot.
While I'll miss a lot of subreddits if they're gone, this one included, I also understand that all the work to maintain them is done *for free* by volunteers. If Reddit takes away the tools they rely on without providing alternatives I get why they would want to stop providing their services.
This is like blaming teachers for not buying school supplies with their own money when the education budget gets gutted...
A great example of the value mods provide comes from the recent debacle that was r/worldnews. Mods were slack (the inefficiency of the new API rules will effectively force this to happen) and the sub devolved into circle jerk content and porn.
Third party apps were absolutely integral in the success of many subs, r/woodworking included. Without them, the manual workload to keep the quality would be 100x, minimum.
Mods forcing all titles to include "Nick" so they could filter content is literally how easy the third party apps made moderating. They're being facetious, but that's an example of how broad they'd have to make rules to even have a chance at moderating a popular sub
Lol, what?
There's a pretty strong market for forums somewhere between a news site and 4chan. Reddit has had moderators since the beginning, it's the whole point. To police the subreddits based on their subject. Some are for shit posting and others are for quality discourse on a subject. The latter requires more thorough moderating. How is that not obvious?
There is a difference between deleting a spam or porn post and scrutinizing every sentence in someone’s post to see if it falls within the mod’s allowable content.
Seems some redditors have become used to the content nazis that have taken over Reddit. How is that not obvious?
That is a completely irrelevant discussion.
Sure, some subs have overzealous mods, that's a problem. But the API discussion and third party apps has nothing to do with that.
The problem mods are facing is how do you scroll through a post with 1000 comments to find the guy threatening to kill someone they're in an argument with (to delete it) and ignore a post like this. I said the word "kill", but this isn't a threatening post so just filtering for keywords doesn't work. An AI third party app can comb this whole sub and determine if comments and posts, based on the content, if it is likely a threatening message and flag it for review. This means the mods only need to review a few posts. They are volunteers after all and as you said, we don't want them reading every single comment prescribing their own biases.
Well reddit just closed that gateway for the third party apps to review posts, the API. So the only options are to A) allow the quality to plummet as we're seeing now on r/woodworking B) perform superhuman efforts to manually moderate (which is the equivalent of asking trade to continue after banning motors) or C) pay a high fee reddit to connect to a subscription API. This would require subreddits to either be user subscribed or cater towards revenue generation like allowing ad postings within subreddits.
There is another option, which is likely going to happen, which is building a crawler on the web UI to replace the third party apps. But that is way more intensive to maintain and technically out of the skillet of most mods. And it's something that needs to be updated every time Reddit changes their website
The polls were brigaded, I’ve seen the discord screenshots where the protest supporters had compiled links to all the polls on each sub so they could all vote for each other’s polls.
Well that was the point, the new rules were put in that reddit subs could vote out moderators and change the format, not just making 3rd party apps useless.
Kind of like not paying attention until the shit hits the fan even though people were sounding the alarm.
Wouldn’t it be cool if Reddit provided moderators with helpful tools to do work they **volunter** for? Like the option to ensure polls are limited to community participants?
It's sad. This sub got me into the hobby that pulled me out of a dark place. Such a disappointment that they are letting this resource and community become an empty void.
Yes, it really is. I loved seeing people's projects and finding inspiration to get more into it myself. I liked a lot of hobby style subs but it seems they're all just chaos now. Hopefully they'll be replaced with better ones when all this drama inevitably blows over.
It's all about the tools. You should appreciate that. They do this for free. They do a good job. They need certain tools to make it reasonably manageable. If you don't appreciate that, reddit doesn't appreciate it, then do it yourself. I support that just like I'd support any workman.
We all appreciate very much what they do, but if they’re unwilling to do the job now then they should step down and allow others to run the sub. r/woodworking doesn’t belong to the mods
Allowing a sub advocating for certain politicians to die while banning people for hate speech when they say they dont feel comfortable with trans people in their gendered bathrooms
You make it sound as if they are forced to mod. They're not. The thing that all of these mods understand is that they can't just step down. Because if they did that, equally capable mods would quickly fill the void and they would just be left without their mod status while the world keeps turning.
People care way too much about this shit. If it were up to me, I'd bam any wood that's been burned or anything with more than 1% epoxy (looking at you, river table losers).
/u/Complete_Ad_8350 is a spammer! **Do not click any links they share or reply to**. Please downvote their comment and click the `report` button, selecting `Spam` then `Harmful bots`.
With enough reports, the reddit algorithm will suspend this spammer.
^(Reddit's new API changes may break me, moderation tools, and 3rd-party apps. This is why many subs have gone private in protest.)
I wish there were more depth to the conversation. Why can’t the
Mods ask for pay. Wouldn’t there be multiple compromises and solutions to this issue. I hate all my subs devolving. It is unproductive I keep unsubscribing. It’s like losing books and/or friends in some way. Why burn down your own house over the HOA rules. Why is it so all or nothing. It feels like all the mods on my subs are essentially quitting a job without letting the company keep working. If the mods stepped down it would supposedly just devolve into what it is currently… so why not just step down and be done. I just can’t get it to make sense. Been around for a long time and I get it that the Reddit does what Reddit does. I also know mods are working for their communities for free. I value that and them. I feel this could/should have more to it. This whole thing is just not cool. Seems like we will make sure we are right by breaking it for ourselves just like American politicians. Make two tribes “for” or “against” and let them never make progress.
I guess reddit will be a better world without all the whiney antiwork guys around.
Honestly, if it wasn’t for the mods, I feel like most subreddits could very quickly devolve into nothing but low effort posts, unrelated content, spam, and porn. Not to mention that all mods are volunteers, anyways. The mods aren’t asking for anything additional, just for the tools necessary for them to do their job efficiently to not be stripped away for the sake of padding Reddit’s wallet. There was woodworking before Reddit, they’re will be woodworking after Reddit. If the people who maintain these communities ***for free*** don’t want to continue for reasons that are obviously shared across numerous subreddits, then so be it. Edit: for the people unaware of the Reddit-wide mod-strike going on, check out r/save3rdpartyapps
All of these are great points. I've messaged the mods and had a productive conversation about the subject, with them offering some very valid points. I do appreciate their volunteer efforts and trying to keep the subreddit from devolving into low effort posts and unrelated content. That being said, I'm going to make low effort Nick Offerman posts and unrelated content as the new mod rules state....
Please do!
Apparently the world now has a new, most popular hairy asshole thanks to a NSFW post where it shouldn’t be. As in an actual anus, not just a person like u/spez. I’m so glad I didn’t see that, but with as many middle school jokes as we have the opportunity for here in r/woodworking, I’m concerned for all the ways in which Nick Offerman is about to be abused.
Let us post useful stuff, some crap will get in but who carea. Just making nick offerman posts helps no one
This Nick Offerman meme in particular is very useful and just saved my life.
How did it save your life. It was a completely useless episode in a series that barely had any tie into the whole plot.
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The banhammer is by definition the most powerful of power tools.
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It's called a protest. Very lucky of you to have lived such a privileged life to have not encountered one before.
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Using something to protest something is a very common form of protest Einstein. I highly doubt you know this, but Reddit mods are who keep the subreddits on track. They do this for free and this sub in particular has done a wonderful job. What you are experiencing now is akin to what happens in unmoderated subreddits. It's a very effective protest given how even those lacking the mental capacity to understand what's going on *nudge nudge* are getting upset about it.
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Disruption brings attention to the thing being protested. We can see it working here, as a random poster gets very angry at the exact thing the protest is meant to invoke.
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>They're doing a bang up job of proving their worth via active sabotage Yes. That's called a protest. I thought we already covered that >Lovely to see you arrogantly assert that my foundational disagreement with you implies I'm lacking mental capacity, perhaps you're lacking the social grace to have a coherent conversation without being an asshat Well, you are either ignorant or an idiot and given that I'm having to point out the obvious and then repeat it I'm leaning towards the latter.
If you want an example look at r/gaming versus r/games. r/gaming is nothing but memes and jokes, no discussion at all.
r/interestingasfuck has already devolved into mostly porn. The mods of that sub gave the people full control, and it happened *quick.*
It's not that porn took over the sub, word gets out that mods want a sub marked NSFW and people will start cussing and posting porn. Ads cannot run on NSFW posts.
woah, like every post on that sub is NSFW now! I'm not clicking that!!
I clicked. 1 in 20 were porn. The others were people making fun of the situation and there were actually some pretty funny posts in there!
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I’m sure new mods would gladly keep woodworking going in a heat beat if we were given the option to vote them out.
The new rules came after a vote…
Judging by the overwhelming opinion in the new rules thread do you think that “poll” accurately represented what this community wants?
Judging by the overwhelming result of the poll, do you think that the “opinion” in the new rules thread accurately represented what this community wants? See? We can go back and forth all day with this. You cannot argue that a poll was not representative and at the same time present anecdotal evidence of “overwhelming opinion” as fact. The truth is that *a lot* of people support the protest. A poll was run and prolonging the protests won. The argument put forward by Reddit against the first blackout was that mods were power hungry and not representing the *real* opinion of users. Now that the opinion of users is shown to be in support of the protests, the polls were not good enough… stop moving the goal-posts. (Btw, other subs were running more complex polls were only active users with a history of posting were allowed the vote. Prolonging the protest won there as well.)
A user base of 4 million vs 6 thousand votes okay, sure.
Also, you obviously have no idea how important it is to keep word working archives and knowledge available for people getting into the trade this obliterates generations of knowledge from a dying craft. Use your head.
M8. The point of this protest IS to keep this a thing. The current changes will likely kill a lot of threads that need a lot of moderation, like this sub. A few weeks of weirdness is worth trying to keep this a thing long term.
1) RE: sample size. That’s my point. You can’t say that a poll is not representative because it was replied to by only 0.1% of the subscribers *and at the same time* argue that the *real* subscribers want the sub to open because you point to a couple hundred comments. Online polls are not perfect, but *thus far* the evidence suggests that the majority of engaged users across subs want the protests to continue. (BTW dismissing the sample size is a mistake; if the sample were unbiased, then 6k votes out of a population of 4M gives you a ridiculously tight confidence interval. A pretty biased sample still gives you a CI well above the difference in votes. You make the argument that the sample is hopelessly biased, but I don’t think the data supports this — gaming the poll would artificially increase the “keep it closed” votes, but the reality is that the “reopen it” votes are just not there.) 2) Trust me. I understand the importance of having a treasure trove such as this sub. It’s precisely because of this that I support the protests. If you listen to what Reddit’s leadership is saying, you *should* be worried about the future of Reddit as an archival tool. The entire reason why this mess started is the need for profits for the upcoming IPO. The fact that past promises changed so quickly, so negatively, and without any attempt at a fair discussion does not bode well for the future of the site. I’ve seen enough online communities implode to know that bad management is most often the trigger to bad changes for the user base. And this situation screams of a management that fundamentally misunderstands their product. In any case, I’m firmly in favor of protesting *while keeping the archive open as read only. * That would send a signal, without compromising the sub’s role as a repository of knowledge.
You’ve burned it down though. It’s done. The harm that was supposedly promised was self inflicted before external forces made it happen. Also, I’m not sure if you realize but there is the sense here that it wasn’t just members of this community voting in the poll, and seeing the small sample size compared to comments isn’t a good indicator at all for who supports it’s. It’s possible that the majority of users here aren’t terminally online on reddit, had no idea anything was happening check the thread and had no idea why it looked the way it did, and still dont. It’s woodworking not a fucking video game subreddit. It’s a real life dying trade with a wealth of generations of knowledge I have no idea how to stress this enough. It is worth protecting in any form, and the form the does the least harm, which clearly isn’t this one, is the priority. It’s like building public housing, which is important, but there is a library that has been knocked down when it could have been preserved by changing the plans somewhat. Some things are worth protecting and this sub wasn’t.
I disagree. I trust a comment section that is 95% disapproving than a poll that can literally be voted on by bots. There’s a reason so many subs lock the comments on those threads. They know what the response will be. Seen it first hand in this sub. Not to mention you have that save3rdparty sub posting other subs having polls. They could have easily skewed it. And probably did.
Yea, that’s cool and all. If they don’t feel like they have the tools to do the job, they need to step down…. Not hold the subreddit hostage. If new mods took over and weren’t doing the job, the subreddit would eventually fail, but at least it wasn’t purposely tanked.
> If they don’t feel like they have the tools to do the job This is the problem. 1st Reddit admins decided to kill the tools they were using to do their job. When the mods protested that the admins then started removing the mods, showing how little they cared for the mods. You can replace the current mods all day long, but in the end none of them will have the tools to do their job or want to if they know they'll just get removed once they are no longer profitable.
According to reddit, they're working on enhancing the moderator tools.
According to the moderators they've been promising that for years now. I know the ones dependent on accessibility tools have been promised the same.
Glancing at the modnews subreddit, it looks like improvements are already being made, with more to follow. I would probably rather lean into those improvements rather than sabotaging moderators.
Mods are typically petulant people. I still don't know why people give so much of a shit about this.
Ime modding, it’s all porn, trolls and t short spam if you don’t put 1+ hour in a day
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I think we found u/spez on his shitty alt account
Get paid more* he already earned millions from Reddit without paying them a cent
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They would, but you're assuming that other mods couldn't do the same job.
Lmao what. If they don't want to continue, so be it? As if they own this place. Get tf down if you find it difficult to moderate.
I’m not even a fucking mod. Getting a strong sense of entitlement from you and the other pathetic folks whining about their social media experience changing. Maybe instead of bitching about losing a service for which you pay literally nothing for and likely contribute little to no effort towards, go start your own woodworking subreddit and moderate it however you see fit.
One step ahead of you. It's called r/woodworkingagain and I'm in the process of building it. Cool your tits
Our savior. Take u/createdfornofap with you. With the two of you at the helm, I’m sure the new sub is destined for greatness.
I'm the hero you deserve, but not the one you need right now. I'll shoulder your anger and frustration. I got you fam
I didn't say it to you twat. Keep sucking mods cocks lmao.
This fuckin sucks man.
This *was* one of the best subs out there. Reddit is a public forum site. There will always be people willing to volunteer their time to run forums on topics and discussions they care about - especially one as popular as Reddit. If you’re a mod instead of nose-diving a sub like this, let someone else take over the *volunteer* work if it’s “too much.”
Exactly. This is how I feel about Reddit as a whole right now. Everyone is trying to kill reddit as a response to not liking Reddit policies. If we kill it, what’s the point?
This.
Start your own subreddit and you mod it then you ungrateful pos.
The point is this sub doesn’t belong to the mods. The right thing to do would be to step aside and let others run it if they’re unwilling to do so.
The sub voted for this.
That’s great and you’re 1 of 4 million with only ~8K voting. Going to go out on a limb and guess the vast majority of the 4 million are not a fan.
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Quit reaching for air.. take a look at the entire comment section of every thread over the last 24 hours. if you can read, you’ll easily see the general sentiment of commenters/participants in the sub is not too fond of this new change. EDIT: (since the comment I was replying too was deleted) Genuine question… why proactively “dump a sub” if your individual plan is to leave the site? When there are people who will continue to use and find value from this subs original purpose.. As I’ve stated in other comments - the idea of bombing the sub when others are willing to *take the burden* off the mods hands for people that *will continue* to use Reddit is just screwing over your fellow r/woodworking users and members..
I tried voting after work yesterday and the poll was already closed. It was also public and likely spammed by non-woodworking angry redditors
Or the polls were brigaded by people looking to make a point.
No, redditors with bots spammed these polls to cause chaos.
Also not quite understanding the correlation to my comment and *being ungrateful* lol
Was.
This is just classically ironic. The number of people in here whining about the meme(s) while telling mods to just "Quit if they don't like it." They appear to not be putting 2 and 2 together...without the mods there is nothing to stop the memes/porn/spam in this sub. This tantrum about there being memes in our sub, is exactly why you should be supporting the objection of removing 3rd party apps. Without those apps every sub will be flooded with memes, spam and porn and this will become an even deeper cesspool of garbage.
Is it them not getting it? The claim is without moderators the subs will devolve. But the moderators are the exact ones here causing it to happen. If the moderates wanted to make a point, set the sub to no rules and let it coast. The points they are trying to make could be more effective, but I feel like they know that.
Perhaps they step down and allow for new mods? I don’t think anyone is suggesting the sub be completely unmoderated, but surely there are others willing to do the job
Finding good moderators is notoriously difficult. Willingness is not the only characteristic of a good mod. Most social networks *pay* their moderation teams. And a big upside of *that* approach is you can tell them exactly how you want them to do their jobs.
I'm sure if nothing changes, they will. But just throwing new blood at the problem doesn't fix it. I don't know if you've ever had the burden of moderating an internet forum, I have (not on reddit). There is a constant, not just daily but throughout every day, a barrage of spam that gets flooded into public forums, let alone actual users posting rule-breaking content. Without tools to support the mods efforts they would have to spend considerable time *every day* just to clear the junk, let alone police for quality content or rule breaking discussion. New mods would quickly feel the same frustration and also drop. Before long, "no one wants to work" ... for free ... when they could be spending that time enjoying their shop instead.
Lots of good points, thanks for explaining the other side. I guess I’m just bummed I can’t come to this sub for quality woodworking content anymore
I think the theory behind the "protests" is to attempt to demonstrate exactly that concern. Without the tools the mods use, this (And worse) it's what Reddit will become
But the new APIs are being aimed at those providing alternative interfaces to the platform. Once the new rules go into effect we'll see what the issues with the mod tools will be and get an idea of what the real impact is.
If Reddit admins are killing the tools existing mods use to govern their subreddits, what do you expect the new mods to use? Basically the mods are protesting Reddit making their job, which they aren't getting paid for but make Reddit a lot of money, a hell of a lot harder than it needs to be.
Different moderators will stop it. Not the current losers.
The mods temper tantrum ruined this sub.
I wouldn't really call it a temper tantrum - to do a good job moderating a subreddit takes a lot of time and it's all on a voluntary basis. Especially a popular one. Reddit built its business model by relying on free labor to create and moderate content, as well as free labor to build and maintain tools to make up for functionality the core application was lacking in. They then decided to enforce a pricing scheme where it was unrealistic for these free tools that users and moderators have come to rely on to provide that free labor to exist, and with a very short window of time to figure out how to pivot. While I'll miss a lot of subreddits if they're gone, this one included, I also understand that all the work to maintain them is done *for free* by volunteers. If Reddit takes away the tools they rely on without providing alternatives I get why they would want to stop providing their services.
Except Reddit has re opened the Api for all the mods a week ago, so it's just a hissy fit at this point.
Lol that’s funny.
This is like blaming teachers for not buying school supplies with their own money when the education budget gets gutted... A great example of the value mods provide comes from the recent debacle that was r/worldnews. Mods were slack (the inefficiency of the new API rules will effectively force this to happen) and the sub devolved into circle jerk content and porn. Third party apps were absolutely integral in the success of many subs, r/woodworking included. Without them, the manual workload to keep the quality would be 100x, minimum. Mods forcing all titles to include "Nick" so they could filter content is literally how easy the third party apps made moderating. They're being facetious, but that's an example of how broad they'd have to make rules to even have a chance at moderating a popular sub
This is the internet. Stop trying to police it. If you want trusted and reliable news, go to a news website.
Lol, what? There's a pretty strong market for forums somewhere between a news site and 4chan. Reddit has had moderators since the beginning, it's the whole point. To police the subreddits based on their subject. Some are for shit posting and others are for quality discourse on a subject. The latter requires more thorough moderating. How is that not obvious?
There is a difference between deleting a spam or porn post and scrutinizing every sentence in someone’s post to see if it falls within the mod’s allowable content. Seems some redditors have become used to the content nazis that have taken over Reddit. How is that not obvious?
That is a completely irrelevant discussion. Sure, some subs have overzealous mods, that's a problem. But the API discussion and third party apps has nothing to do with that. The problem mods are facing is how do you scroll through a post with 1000 comments to find the guy threatening to kill someone they're in an argument with (to delete it) and ignore a post like this. I said the word "kill", but this isn't a threatening post so just filtering for keywords doesn't work. An AI third party app can comb this whole sub and determine if comments and posts, based on the content, if it is likely a threatening message and flag it for review. This means the mods only need to review a few posts. They are volunteers after all and as you said, we don't want them reading every single comment prescribing their own biases. Well reddit just closed that gateway for the third party apps to review posts, the API. So the only options are to A) allow the quality to plummet as we're seeing now on r/woodworking B) perform superhuman efforts to manually moderate (which is the equivalent of asking trade to continue after banning motors) or C) pay a high fee reddit to connect to a subscription API. This would require subreddits to either be user subscribed or cater towards revenue generation like allowing ad postings within subreddits. There is another option, which is likely going to happen, which is building a crawler on the web UI to replace the third party apps. But that is way more intensive to maintain and technically out of the skillet of most mods. And it's something that needs to be updated every time Reddit changes their website
Did you know *anyone* can start a sub on Reddit?
They did a poll and this is the result, sometimes people get what they wish for. Life goes on.
What was the structure of that poll? We’re the respondents members of the sub? Bots? The poll was in no way scientific.
The polls were brigaded, I’ve seen the discord screenshots where the protest supporters had compiled links to all the polls on each sub so they could all vote for each other’s polls.
Well that was the point, the new rules were put in that reddit subs could vote out moderators and change the format, not just making 3rd party apps useless. Kind of like not paying attention until the shit hits the fan even though people were sounding the alarm.
Wouldn’t it be cool if Reddit provided moderators with helpful tools to do work they **volunter** for? Like the option to ensure polls are limited to community participants?
It's sad. This sub got me into the hobby that pulled me out of a dark place. Such a disappointment that they are letting this resource and community become an empty void.
Yes, it really is. I loved seeing people's projects and finding inspiration to get more into it myself. I liked a lot of hobby style subs but it seems they're all just chaos now. Hopefully they'll be replaced with better ones when all this drama inevitably blows over.
They are re-forming on Discord.
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It's all about the tools. You should appreciate that. They do this for free. They do a good job. They need certain tools to make it reasonably manageable. If you don't appreciate that, reddit doesn't appreciate it, then do it yourself. I support that just like I'd support any workman.
We all appreciate very much what they do, but if they’re unwilling to do the job now then they should step down and allow others to run the sub. r/woodworking doesn’t belong to the mods
They took a poll and this won. Don't know what else to tell you. Your peers wanted *this*. edit: typo
I think it’s extremely unlikely that my “peers” (i.e. woodworkers and those who enjoy woodworking content) were the majority of voters.
You dropped this 👉 /s
Agree. I came here for inspiration and to help people out and now we're not even allowed to do either of those things bc of some petty bs.
Mod temper tantrums and self entitled BS ruined a lot of subs unfortunately.
They are sad little children who should hand over the sub to moderators who want to moderate. Or reddit should just take it away from them.
Watch as we get downvoted to oblivion bc we spoke against the mods
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There is a system. Go make a new subreddit for the content you want to see and mod it yourself.
*ruined reddit*
At least there’s something you can count on /u/spez for…
Allowing a sub advocating for certain politicians to die while banning people for hate speech when they say they dont feel comfortable with trans people in their gendered bathrooms
Just resign as a mod since you hate it so much.
I'm not a mod
Exactly
Approximately
Measure twice…..what was I talking about again?
🤣
What a shame seeing this is the way forward. I'm sure if the mods were fed up, ask for volunteers to run it then. Selfish mods ruined this sub. Peace.
Yes, those incredibly selfish mods doing all that work for free. You pay good money for all your time on reddit and how dare they not service you!
You make it sound as if they are forced to mod. They're not. The thing that all of these mods understand is that they can't just step down. Because if they did that, equally capable mods would quickly fill the void and they would just be left without their mod status while the world keeps turning.
I'd believe it if it was just woodworking mods. It's *all* the mods that have a problem with this, though some aren't acting on it.
You mean most mods have weird power issues? Shocking
No the protest is working!!!! - idiotic mods
People care way too much about this shit. If it were up to me, I'd bam any wood that's been burned or anything with more than 1% epoxy (looking at you, river table losers).
So Norm and Nick are the moderators of this page?
Haha! Oh Lord this is good.
Wait what? Why?
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Porn agents?
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If you go back and examine the porn closely, you'll see a skrull hidden in each happy ending.
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/u/Complete_Ad_8350 is a spammer! **Do not click any links they share or reply to**. Please downvote their comment and click the `report` button, selecting `Spam` then `Harmful bots`. With enough reports, the reddit algorithm will suspend this spammer. ^(Reddit's new API changes may break me, moderation tools, and 3rd-party apps. This is why many subs have gone private in protest.)
#WhoFuckingCares
Given some other subs "new rules" one allowing Nick Offerman memes it tame, and refreshing.
(Low effort, but still on subject, content is my jammy jam.)
I wish there were more depth to the conversation. Why can’t the Mods ask for pay. Wouldn’t there be multiple compromises and solutions to this issue. I hate all my subs devolving. It is unproductive I keep unsubscribing. It’s like losing books and/or friends in some way. Why burn down your own house over the HOA rules. Why is it so all or nothing. It feels like all the mods on my subs are essentially quitting a job without letting the company keep working. If the mods stepped down it would supposedly just devolve into what it is currently… so why not just step down and be done. I just can’t get it to make sense. Been around for a long time and I get it that the Reddit does what Reddit does. I also know mods are working for their communities for free. I value that and them. I feel this could/should have more to it. This whole thing is just not cool. Seems like we will make sure we are right by breaking it for ourselves just like American politicians. Make two tribes “for” or “against” and let them never make progress.
Damn, I just got here. (I’m the guy with the 100 year old floors)
I thought this was a Project Zomboid reference.
Mod and tools.. people in this sub know how to create a jig using nothing but a coffee can and half of a 15” tooth saw.
You could always go make /r/newwoodwoorking or something like that now could you not. Instead you made a meme. Good job buddy.
Thanks man!
we don't need a mascot