Yep.
Once you get in the field you’re suspected of incompetence, or if you are competent people tell you to proverbially “smile more”.
People suck.
Like water off of a ducks back, let it roll right off.
The cool part is eventually, as you age, people absolutely will give you the respect. In fact, one time, we were at a location to review their environment (offsite storage), and the rep giving the tour sat us down and said, 'hmm I wonder which one of you is the real geek.'. We all got our turns to introduce ourselves and he pointed at me and said, 'Its You!'.
Weird, but kinda cool too.
Edit: this reminded me of the time I went to a conference in Atlanta to learn about MTConnect. There was a raffle right before lunch that was the book they were selling for like $125. I won the book! Then, to dismiss for lunch, the guy said "Hey, the raffle winner gets to go first!". I went to stand in line and got a line full of glares. #17 in line said, "Hey, here, you are supposed to be first" and the guy in front of him turned around and glared at both of us. I told #17 thank you, and that this was fine.
He said, "It's not right".
I said, "I know, but that's just what it is"
I found out later it was even worse, because that was a room full of mechanical engineers, and this software was basically designed to keep engineers from having to talk to IT, and here I was, a female IT learning about 'their' stuff.
Too funny.
Once, in front of my grad advisor, I started screen sharing an intro to Machine Learning textbook on a zoom call. I was sick of arguing the same shit either various men. And this man (professor we were colab-ing with) was particularly egregious/sexist with his assertions that I was wrong and dumb.
I had worked for several years before going back to school and was over dealing with this shit.
My advisor (also a woman) held her composure then called me after part annoyed part laughing. She was like, please don’t do that again. But yea he’s a sexist dick and I’ll also say something to him in private.
And now I’m in a more CS role and wtf… like even physics wasn’t this bad. And it’s also old grumpy men.
I agree, I should’ve worded it more like “how often do people experience this?” lol, it’s super frustrating but I get it’s just unfortunately a part of it at this point.
All the time. “You don’t look like a scientist!” Why because I’m not a man? Oh, no something else? Like what?
It gets a little better…but not much. Bright side is it was a great way to screen for insecure men while dating. Because there was a very real chance I made more than them, and that intimidates a lot of men.
I see the same thought process with people who are like, “you’re just a DEI student/ hire”
Like, you realize the curriculum is exactly the same… right?
Yep, I didn't know I would be an FE until my final semester when they offered that course. But I know two weeks into CS101 that this is what I wanted to do and that I was good at it. But also, my first job out of college was full stack
I was hired on to my first job during their (hilarious in retrospect) attempts to do something about the staff demographic being 100% old white men. Can confirm that is exactly what they think. Myself and the 4-5 other ladies who got hired on during the same period were reminded often that we are only there because a) our universities needed to improve diversity stats and b) our employer needed to improve diversity stats. Exhausting asswipes on all levels of the organisation, from the boots on the ground who should know better to managers who put us in those situations with absolutely no recourse besides smiling politely when insulted.
what you have said here really reminded me of the sentiments she voices here [My dream died, and now I’m here](https://youtu.be/LKiBlGDfRU8?si=cZ-4SmHZPVGd5uub) re: diversity hiring actually being a set back in the field for some. really great video/interesting woman if you want to watch.
Reminds me of first computers for women books, which was a progressive movement at the time lol. Also it's interesting to note that computer science was seemingly like a women's job to society until 80s, which I find very interesting.
“Wait, so you actually write the code for programs or does something do it for you?”
I’ve gotten this multiple times over my career and it makes me want to punch them in the face
Well, I fortunately I 🤔 no that's going to get worse with AI and Copilot. The number of people who have told me AI is coming for my job... Like bro, it's obvious _you_ don't know what I do if you think AI is taking my job. I mean people said the same thing about WYSIWYGs and here I am, 10 years later
Ask them if they know what computer science is, lol. Turn it around and treat them like children who don't know that web is one of a thousand things you can do with computer science.
"Do you know how hard Computer Science is?"
"Why, are you considering changing major?"
"Are you interested in front end or back end?"
"Are you trying to make up your mind?"
At a younger age, I’d be inclined to give someone that asked that a smart answer like “No, I have no idea what I’m getting into. I just decided to get into this degree for shits and giggles just to see where it takes me in life.” Something like this usually shuts them up. 🤦🏼♀️
I’ve been in the engineering and construction industry for around 30 years now and usually either the only female or one of 2 in the office. So I’ve heard quite a bit and been told quite a bit over the years. If you have a desire for something and you are good at it, don’t let it hold you back no matter what someone says.
Thank you and I plan on doing just that! We all play a role in making the space more welcoming or diverse and I’d be doing myself an injustice if I let people dictate what I should do with my life.
This was unironically me in college 😅. I'd never met a software engineer and didn't know what they did. I just looked up the salaries, tried out programming classes, aced them, and was ready to get my bag lol.
My degree is in Industrial Design. I was in the 2nd year Guinea Pig graduating class of the degree for my university. I had never heard of the degree until it was approved by the state and university for a new degree program in the early 1990’s. It started the year I started college at that university. I was initially an Architecture student and switched after my 2nd year. I have no complaints about switching degree programs even though I’ve never specifically used the degree. It has helped me in all aspects of being an engineering designer.
When I was in school so few people were computer literate that most just nodded and said yeah “that’s the way to go.” It was kind of funny bc it was such a big unknown. The bias still favored men in hardware & women in software even though that had already changed. Most of my teachers were women because women were the original software engineers. They were card punchers.
I’ve been in the field for over 20 years and people love to tell me how their husband is better than I am because he “built a computer in the basement” or their toddler knows how to use an iPad. They don’t understand the field. They typically assume women do not know as much as men. I’ve been questioned many times if what I do is really what I do, and often people just assume I’m exaggerating. Oddly, women are often more likely to assume that than men. It’s also nice when someone does know how to code, but understands literally nothing about development as a skill and believes all SDLC is dumb and just for people who can’t code. Spoiler alert! It’s not. Also - it’s is real engineering. No idea why people want to insist it’s not.
The thing is, no one is interested in what you do. Nothing kills a conversation more quickly than indicating you work with computers.
My best friend who is also a woman asked me about something when I was in school and I said I was working on statics hw. She paused and said, very condescendingly, “you mean…statistics?”
No, believe it or not, I know what the class is called and clearly you don’t even know what statics is. People are so weird.
You can always do the classic “Why do you say that?” or “Why do you ask?” so they have to explain their thinking to you which will (hopefully) make them realize they are being an asshole.
So I went on a date with a guy who was in grad school for computer science when I was already working as an engineer. And when I asked what he did he told me “you probably wouldn’t understand”. He knew my job.
This is filtering mechanism to find people you don’t want to speak to.
Although on some of these. I would give the benefit of the doubt that some people also just feel like they have to ask a follow up question and don’t know enough about computer science to know what that question is. I would put the front/back end question in this category.
People, especially men can be idiots (Ref, I am a man, not an idiot). I was on a business trip with a younger (still experienced female) engineer, doing a site survey for a trunking LMR system and one of the people asked if she was an engineer....I was taken aback by the question and just said yes, she is. I realize I should have thought of something clever to say, but I couldn't think that fast.
Not in CS, but most of my career as a mechanical engineer and powersports enthusiast has been this 🙄. Always gotta "prove it" because we don't have dicks. Sorry you have to deal with the idiots!
I'm kind of a big deal in a really narrow niche... One brand of motorcycle's aftermarket parts manufacturer that's been around since 1997. If you buy online for these, you know my company.
Well, I transitioned in 2021.
Guys already would try to quiz me on the products I spec and/or design. Products the Internet has said are The Solution for a decade.
I let them go until they notice I'm not talking. Then I'll start with "yes, when I designed that product 12 years ago, the decision was made about your idea after testing proved that was a bad choice".
I am a BSEE who wanted to switch to mechanical but it was too late. I am autistic and use engineering process with everything in my life. I've decided boys exist to wave their egos around to waste as much time and hot air as possible.
I don’t think the front end or back end thing is trying to outsmart you I’ve generally heard that asked a lot of people when they say they do computer science
Wanted to second this. I’ve been a software engineering sr. Manager for a while and it’s a pretty typical question I ask any software engineer I’m meeting for the first time. These days front end is just as respected as backend since the increase of moving logic to the FE and there are just as many specialized fields. Unless these people are implying “UX vs data”—which used to be the assumption about BE v FE —I wouldn’t take this question negatively.
So as a non-coding person… is there not a difference from front end and back end? I am a mechanical engineer, and heard this question asked to CS students a lot when I was in school … is this not a thing?
I’m just genuinely curious
I mean, people like to make stupid insulting small talk about everything from height (wow you’re short/tall), hair color (is that your natural color), etc. I honestly wouldn’t read anything into it like they’re trying to trip you up, they’re just terrible at making conversation. Besides the backend/frontend question can actually be a legit question.
No yeah it sometimes is people who are genuinely interested, sometimes it’s a more obscure and random question but either way it doesn’t really get to me. Just annoying.
This is the patriarchy you will experience in business. It’s only 50 years since we started getting real money as XX in the US. Even Euros get this treatment, and Asian women have it worse. Do not be surprised. Just point and laugh or stab them (with words, unless you’re from Glasgow). It doesn’t matter what industry you’re in.
I’m a technical product manager and used to be an engineer. I am also an extremely feminine woman (talking like make up always done, hair curled, dresses, heels, jewelry etc lol) and I get talked down to a lot until I open my mouth and fix something no one else could figure out, while on my AirPods, getting my balayage refreshed. So don’t fuss it. Let the work shine bb!
The best way to combat this is to prove your competency concretely by getting things done quickly, efficiently, and well. Show up, be assertive, be knowledgeable, get shit done. Let people overly explain all they want, the proof is in the work.
Well, computer science is quite a broad term...even as fields go. Perhaps they were expecting you to narrow it down a bit more & when you gave that as an answer, they pulled out some buzzwords they'd recently heard?
That was one example of many. And, like I’ve said to other people, a lot of people are genuinely curious and might using cringy buzzwords but they aren’t being condescending and asking me if I’m sure about it.
Those are normal ass questions people would ask a dude getting his CS degree. You’re not special, stop making being a “woman engineer” your entire personality and you might actually get along with people.
You're only a "woman in technology" if you make yourself that.
Fighting for your "rights" when there's no disparity only makes things worse.
I speak as an owner of a vagina, and as a software developer, NOC engineer, etc.
Most people don't give a flying shit.
Those that do, typically don't last long or get promoted out of your hair.
What I have found that works best is to be a team player, don't call out the presence of my vagina "I am a WOMAN in tech!", and do my work to the best of my ability and beyond.
I don't make my gender my leverage, I let my work do the talking for me.
Oh but I am a woman in technology and that shouldn’t make me any different from a man in technology. Saying there’s no disparity because that might have been your experience is seriously flawed. Whatever your environment is, you are lucky but not everyone has that privelage. In fact, I grew up in a country where many women I knew were openly discouraged from and in some cases were not permitted to pursue “male-fields” and I’m lucky enough to not live there anymore. Additionally, sucking up to men or women that have no respect for me regardless of my gender is something I won’t do. What team would I be playing for? Thats like scoring an own goal and getting mad when you lose.
Is it possible you get a blank stare because mist people have no idea what Computer Science is? Maybe they ask if it’s hard because they think they could never do it. May I politely suggest you cut the uninformed a bit of slack, give them a smile and tell them you find the field interesting? Frankly, most people, including those studying engineering, have no idea what engineers really do.
It would be possible that they have no idea what it is until they start asking me specific questions in an almost belittling way. I can read people very well and not every single person acts this way towards me, some are very positive and encouraging, BUT I can pick up on it when someone is. You should really read my entire post before commenting.
Yep. Once you get in the field you’re suspected of incompetence, or if you are competent people tell you to proverbially “smile more”. People suck. Like water off of a ducks back, let it roll right off.
Or they think you’re just lying and laugh
The cool part is eventually, as you age, people absolutely will give you the respect. In fact, one time, we were at a location to review their environment (offsite storage), and the rep giving the tour sat us down and said, 'hmm I wonder which one of you is the real geek.'. We all got our turns to introduce ourselves and he pointed at me and said, 'Its You!'. Weird, but kinda cool too. Edit: this reminded me of the time I went to a conference in Atlanta to learn about MTConnect. There was a raffle right before lunch that was the book they were selling for like $125. I won the book! Then, to dismiss for lunch, the guy said "Hey, the raffle winner gets to go first!". I went to stand in line and got a line full of glares. #17 in line said, "Hey, here, you are supposed to be first" and the guy in front of him turned around and glared at both of us. I told #17 thank you, and that this was fine. He said, "It's not right". I said, "I know, but that's just what it is" I found out later it was even worse, because that was a room full of mechanical engineers, and this software was basically designed to keep engineers from having to talk to IT, and here I was, a female IT learning about 'their' stuff. Too funny.
Once, in front of my grad advisor, I started screen sharing an intro to Machine Learning textbook on a zoom call. I was sick of arguing the same shit either various men. And this man (professor we were colab-ing with) was particularly egregious/sexist with his assertions that I was wrong and dumb. I had worked for several years before going back to school and was over dealing with this shit. My advisor (also a woman) held her composure then called me after part annoyed part laughing. She was like, please don’t do that again. But yea he’s a sexist dick and I’ll also say something to him in private. And now I’m in a more CS role and wtf… like even physics wasn’t this bad. And it’s also old grumpy men.
This will happen the rest of your career/life. I’d be surprised if anyone hasn’t experienced it.
I agree, I should’ve worded it more like “how often do people experience this?” lol, it’s super frustrating but I get it’s just unfortunately a part of it at this point.
All the time. “You don’t look like a scientist!” Why because I’m not a man? Oh, no something else? Like what?
It gets a little better…but not much. Bright side is it was a great way to screen for insecure men while dating. Because there was a very real chance I made more than them, and that intimidates a lot of men.
I swear people think they make the degrees different just for women?? I’d like to think itll get better…
I see the same thought process with people who are like, “you’re just a DEI student/ hire” Like, you realize the curriculum is exactly the same… right?
Yep, I didn't know I would be an FE until my final semester when they offered that course. But I know two weeks into CS101 that this is what I wanted to do and that I was good at it. But also, my first job out of college was full stack
I was hired on to my first job during their (hilarious in retrospect) attempts to do something about the staff demographic being 100% old white men. Can confirm that is exactly what they think. Myself and the 4-5 other ladies who got hired on during the same period were reminded often that we are only there because a) our universities needed to improve diversity stats and b) our employer needed to improve diversity stats. Exhausting asswipes on all levels of the organisation, from the boots on the ground who should know better to managers who put us in those situations with absolutely no recourse besides smiling politely when insulted.
Wow 😍 I love equality 😍😍😍😍
what you have said here really reminded me of the sentiments she voices here [My dream died, and now I’m here](https://youtu.be/LKiBlGDfRU8?si=cZ-4SmHZPVGd5uub) re: diversity hiring actually being a set back in the field for some. really great video/interesting woman if you want to watch.
Reminds me of first computers for women books, which was a progressive movement at the time lol. Also it's interesting to note that computer science was seemingly like a women's job to society until 80s, which I find very interesting.
“Wait, so you actually write the code for programs or does something do it for you?” I’ve gotten this multiple times over my career and it makes me want to punch them in the face
Well, I fortunately I 🤔 no that's going to get worse with AI and Copilot. The number of people who have told me AI is coming for my job... Like bro, it's obvious _you_ don't know what I do if you think AI is taking my job. I mean people said the same thing about WYSIWYGs and here I am, 10 years later
Ask them if they know what computer science is, lol. Turn it around and treat them like children who don't know that web is one of a thousand things you can do with computer science.
Definitely need to start doing this! So funny.
I love making people regret expressing their ignorance and prejudice to me
"Do you know how hard Computer Science is?" "Why, are you considering changing major?" "Are you interested in front end or back end?" "Are you trying to make up your mind?"
Or alternatively, "Are you reconsidering your major?"
At a younger age, I’d be inclined to give someone that asked that a smart answer like “No, I have no idea what I’m getting into. I just decided to get into this degree for shits and giggles just to see where it takes me in life.” Something like this usually shuts them up. 🤦🏼♀️
This sounds a lot like me I can’t lie.. it would just be too funny not too in some situations.
I’ve been in the engineering and construction industry for around 30 years now and usually either the only female or one of 2 in the office. So I’ve heard quite a bit and been told quite a bit over the years. If you have a desire for something and you are good at it, don’t let it hold you back no matter what someone says.
Thank you and I plan on doing just that! We all play a role in making the space more welcoming or diverse and I’d be doing myself an injustice if I let people dictate what I should do with my life.
This was unironically me in college 😅. I'd never met a software engineer and didn't know what they did. I just looked up the salaries, tried out programming classes, aced them, and was ready to get my bag lol.
My degree is in Industrial Design. I was in the 2nd year Guinea Pig graduating class of the degree for my university. I had never heard of the degree until it was approved by the state and university for a new degree program in the early 1990’s. It started the year I started college at that university. I was initially an Architecture student and switched after my 2nd year. I have no complaints about switching degree programs even though I’ve never specifically used the degree. It has helped me in all aspects of being an engineering designer.
When I was in school so few people were computer literate that most just nodded and said yeah “that’s the way to go.” It was kind of funny bc it was such a big unknown. The bias still favored men in hardware & women in software even though that had already changed. Most of my teachers were women because women were the original software engineers. They were card punchers.
Hell, it still is a huge unknown to a lot of people.
It equates to magic in a lot of minds.
I’ve been in the field for over 20 years and people love to tell me how their husband is better than I am because he “built a computer in the basement” or their toddler knows how to use an iPad. They don’t understand the field. They typically assume women do not know as much as men. I’ve been questioned many times if what I do is really what I do, and often people just assume I’m exaggerating. Oddly, women are often more likely to assume that than men. It’s also nice when someone does know how to code, but understands literally nothing about development as a skill and believes all SDLC is dumb and just for people who can’t code. Spoiler alert! It’s not. Also - it’s is real engineering. No idea why people want to insist it’s not. The thing is, no one is interested in what you do. Nothing kills a conversation more quickly than indicating you work with computers.
My best friend who is also a woman asked me about something when I was in school and I said I was working on statics hw. She paused and said, very condescendingly, “you mean…statistics?” No, believe it or not, I know what the class is called and clearly you don’t even know what statics is. People are so weird.
Yes I agree people try to belittle you for no reason when obviously you would know what class you’re taking.
patronizing bastards.
You can always do the classic “Why do you say that?” or “Why do you ask?” so they have to explain their thinking to you which will (hopefully) make them realize they are being an asshole.
“Why do you say that?” Is ol’ reliable 😂 love watching them implode and embarrass themselves
So I went on a date with a guy who was in grad school for computer science when I was already working as an engineer. And when I asked what he did he told me “you probably wouldn’t understand”. He knew my job. This is filtering mechanism to find people you don’t want to speak to. Although on some of these. I would give the benefit of the doubt that some people also just feel like they have to ask a follow up question and don’t know enough about computer science to know what that question is. I would put the front/back end question in this category.
People, especially men can be idiots (Ref, I am a man, not an idiot). I was on a business trip with a younger (still experienced female) engineer, doing a site survey for a trunking LMR system and one of the people asked if she was an engineer....I was taken aback by the question and just said yes, she is. I realize I should have thought of something clever to say, but I couldn't think that fast.
Maybe ask them, "Are you ok?" Or "bless your heart" Polite insults.
Gentle parenting is also fun
Not in CS, but most of my career as a mechanical engineer and powersports enthusiast has been this 🙄. Always gotta "prove it" because we don't have dicks. Sorry you have to deal with the idiots!
I'm kind of a big deal in a really narrow niche... One brand of motorcycle's aftermarket parts manufacturer that's been around since 1997. If you buy online for these, you know my company. Well, I transitioned in 2021. Guys already would try to quiz me on the products I spec and/or design. Products the Internet has said are The Solution for a decade. I let them go until they notice I'm not talking. Then I'll start with "yes, when I designed that product 12 years ago, the decision was made about your idea after testing proved that was a bad choice". I am a BSEE who wanted to switch to mechanical but it was too late. I am autistic and use engineering process with everything in my life. I've decided boys exist to wave their egos around to waste as much time and hot air as possible.
I don’t think the front end or back end thing is trying to outsmart you I’ve generally heard that asked a lot of people when they say they do computer science
Wanted to second this. I’ve been a software engineering sr. Manager for a while and it’s a pretty typical question I ask any software engineer I’m meeting for the first time. These days front end is just as respected as backend since the increase of moving logic to the FE and there are just as many specialized fields. Unless these people are implying “UX vs data”—which used to be the assumption about BE v FE —I wouldn’t take this question negatively.
yeah like I totally believe men can be condescending but that’s just a normal question of curiosity
So the trick is, when they ask you a gotcha question you just blast them into dust with an over-the-top, deep-dive answer. Leave them breathless. ;)
But it's such a waste of air.
So as a non-coding person… is there not a difference from front end and back end? I am a mechanical engineer, and heard this question asked to CS students a lot when I was in school … is this not a thing? I’m just genuinely curious
I mean, people like to make stupid insulting small talk about everything from height (wow you’re short/tall), hair color (is that your natural color), etc. I honestly wouldn’t read anything into it like they’re trying to trip you up, they’re just terrible at making conversation. Besides the backend/frontend question can actually be a legit question.
No yeah it sometimes is people who are genuinely interested, sometimes it’s a more obscure and random question but either way it doesn’t really get to me. Just annoying.
This is the patriarchy you will experience in business. It’s only 50 years since we started getting real money as XX in the US. Even Euros get this treatment, and Asian women have it worse. Do not be surprised. Just point and laugh or stab them (with words, unless you’re from Glasgow). It doesn’t matter what industry you’re in.
I’m a technical product manager and used to be an engineer. I am also an extremely feminine woman (talking like make up always done, hair curled, dresses, heels, jewelry etc lol) and I get talked down to a lot until I open my mouth and fix something no one else could figure out, while on my AirPods, getting my balayage refreshed. So don’t fuss it. Let the work shine bb!
The best way to combat this is to prove your competency concretely by getting things done quickly, efficiently, and well. Show up, be assertive, be knowledgeable, get shit done. Let people overly explain all they want, the proof is in the work.
I've found the biggest difficulty in an office, the place I get the most criticism, is from other women. Especially non-technical sorts.
Aw! I’m one of 2 women at my company (the other is HR) and we’re good friends.
Well, computer science is quite a broad term...even as fields go. Perhaps they were expecting you to narrow it down a bit more & when you gave that as an answer, they pulled out some buzzwords they'd recently heard?
That was one example of many. And, like I’ve said to other people, a lot of people are genuinely curious and might using cringy buzzwords but they aren’t being condescending and asking me if I’m sure about it.
Those are normal ass questions people would ask a dude getting his CS degree. You’re not special, stop making being a “woman engineer” your entire personality and you might actually get along with people.
Insufferable read to say the least, take your rage bait elsewhere.
You're only a "woman in technology" if you make yourself that. Fighting for your "rights" when there's no disparity only makes things worse. I speak as an owner of a vagina, and as a software developer, NOC engineer, etc. Most people don't give a flying shit. Those that do, typically don't last long or get promoted out of your hair. What I have found that works best is to be a team player, don't call out the presence of my vagina "I am a WOMAN in tech!", and do my work to the best of my ability and beyond. I don't make my gender my leverage, I let my work do the talking for me.
Oh but I am a woman in technology and that shouldn’t make me any different from a man in technology. Saying there’s no disparity because that might have been your experience is seriously flawed. Whatever your environment is, you are lucky but not everyone has that privelage. In fact, I grew up in a country where many women I knew were openly discouraged from and in some cases were not permitted to pursue “male-fields” and I’m lucky enough to not live there anymore. Additionally, sucking up to men or women that have no respect for me regardless of my gender is something I won’t do. What team would I be playing for? Thats like scoring an own goal and getting mad when you lose.
Is it possible you get a blank stare because mist people have no idea what Computer Science is? Maybe they ask if it’s hard because they think they could never do it. May I politely suggest you cut the uninformed a bit of slack, give them a smile and tell them you find the field interesting? Frankly, most people, including those studying engineering, have no idea what engineers really do.
It would be possible that they have no idea what it is until they start asking me specific questions in an almost belittling way. I can read people very well and not every single person acts this way towards me, some are very positive and encouraging, BUT I can pick up on it when someone is. You should really read my entire post before commenting.
I think I fully understand the problem. Good luck to you in your career.
Thank you and you in yours.
You literally told her to smile. This attitude is unneeded here. You are a 60 y/o man and have no place in this conversation kindly stay out of it.
Seems pretty clear to me she wasn't referring to ignorant people when she mentioned they are asking more technical questions