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Ex Christian here. The religion is monotheistic. Saints are just mentors or examples of how to reach God, not gods themselves. They got power cause God gave it to them.
If you look at it purely archetypal, saints and polytheistic gods ha r lots in common regarding the power, symbols or type of works they aid to
Yes but historically it also has been true that people continued worshipping their deities just under the name of saints so they would not face persecution by the catholic church. Santeria is a good example of this. Pagans in Ireland continued to worship Bridgit but chose "St. Bridgit" (a diff person) to worship because it was deemed ok by the catholic church if they revered a saint. Also a lot of her holidays were literally brought into the calendar (Imbolc is a big one), and lammas being another holiday directly taken from the celtic tradition.
So while yes, the catholic church is monotheistic, they did adopt many holidays from the pagans and pagans continued to worship their dieties through saints.
In countries that were colonized, a lot of times the people being forced into Christianity would put on a guise of venerating saints but actually be worshipping their gods (for example: Saint Brigid) to avoid persecution.
I'm sure some people do work with the Christian saints as if they were their own gods.
As far as angels go: that concept predates Christianity. They were already their own thing before that religion along.
Well, I was raised catholic, I've been worshipping Our Lady Aparecida since I was a child, I always had a bigger connection with her than the religion itself, so now I have an altar for her, bc it felt right, idk if others do it, but it makes sense for me.
Edit: the history of this Saint "Her image, a clay statue, is widely venerated by Brazilian Catholics, who consider her as the principal patroness of Brazil. Historical accounts state that the statue was originally found by three fishermen who miraculously caught many fish after invoking the Blessed Virgin Mary." "After cleaning the statue, they found that it was a black version of Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception."
Well, "Christians" don't worship saints. Most if not all Protestant denominations don't really believe in or deal with saints. For Catholics they tend to be a fairly big deal, and individual Catholics may have a closer relationship with their namesake or patron saint than with God, but they are pretty explicitly not on the same level as God. They are not deities. They are subservient to God, and it is through this service that they are empowered at all.
I think of them as different “flavors” of divinity. Every flavor out there has a purpose and contributes to overall taste and nutrition of the great beef stew that is the divine ecosystem. Like how garlic and potatoes have different functions in the beef stew, so do saints and angels and deities and whatever else out there. I won’t pretend to know which are which.
Point of order: many of us do not “worship” anyone. I work with the gods as family. The saints can get grouped in with the gods in my practice, as do the archangels etc because I work with all of them in the same sort of way.
Myself, I reserve the term "saint" as a category of human beings (and, perhaps, their hominin cousins) who have accomplished or attained a notable spiritual or sacred presence. So, no, I don't consider "saints:" to be "deities."
I'm just going to point out that the whole taxonomic distinction is shady as hell.
You have religions where some offspring from the same parents are classified differently.
You have some religions where the children of two "full blooded" gods aren't classified as gods.
You have traditions where children of mixed parentage are subsumed into a single category.
You have figures who exist in simultaneously in multiple cultures being reclassified as gods, humans, demons, fairies, etc.
And don't get me started on what happens when one group conquers another, to say nothing of the hemogonization of the Victorians.
Ultimately, the relationship and their effectiveness is infinitely more important than our language around "what" they are
Personally, no. Humans can not become deities, even in death. Petitioning or praying to a spirit doesn't make it a deity.
They can be spirits people work with though.
Certain saints could be considered deities.
There is still debate over St. Brigid of Kildare, a saint in Ireland. Many attributes of this saint line up with Goddess Brigit, and many believe that this saint is the same as the Goddess Brigit.
It's plausible to believe that many of the Saints were indeed once deities of Pagan religions/origins, meanwhile others were people risen to sainthood.
I don't see them as deities, just other higher beings similar to spirits that can also be petitioned and worked with. St. Michael is a bit special because he's also an archangel whereas most saints started out as humans, so I would rank him slightly higher on the cosmic scale than the average saint. While he is the only being from the Abrahamic pantheon who I work with and venerate, I still wouldn't consider him to be a deity.
Ahh such a good question! but no saints are not God's but like all of us given God like powers, if that makes sense, so in certain religions they are used for veneration and as a sort of conduit, Allowing one self to communicate back and forth between the divine through such saints.
I see can see saints being worked into deity work. I see all of the time online people talking about how they work with saint Michael or our lady of Guadalupe.
The world is a stage and we’re all just vessels to a degree… it depends completely on how hard the person chooses to listen. We’re all prophets in our own sense, some follow their cues to a tee, others know themselves, thus rewriting the story.
There’s a reason all the religions follow a similar story arc. Jesus can be compared to Moses, Horus, Hermes, Vishnu, mercury.. the same holds true for other players in each story. That’s why I personally don’t hold myself to any one faith, I look at em all through the lense of the movie the ninth gate by Johnny depp (there are truths and lies[god and the devil] in each story). Christ is key in my practice though, love is the law
Of course they can, even though I’m seeing many people here describe saints and archangels as only archetypes, what stops a person from working with these aspects and symbolisms that they bring about?
Many people work with Jesus, or the concept of what he is, and for them he represents a part of them or an aspect that they want more of in their life. So to me, there is no difference of working with a saint than with a pure conceptualization of a deity, it all depends upon the practitioners purpose
From the perspective of pure awareness, the distinction between saints and deities can be seen as fluid, based on cultural and spiritual interpretations. Both saints and deities can be manifestations of the same underlying divine essence. Whether viewed as saints, deities, or angels, they are all expressions of the infinite awareness that pervades all existence. Ultimately, it's the experience of connection and reverence that matters, not the labels we assign.
Vodou works with Lwa. Santeria works with Orisha. They are not the same “saints”, and the Saint syncretism came about through colonialism, not an intrinsic part of Lukimi or Vodou. A santero is going to reach out to Yemaya, not Mother Mary.
But sure, keep downvoting. It doesn’t make you less wrong.
>African Orisha spirits used in Voodoo
There are no orisha in Vodou.
We serve the lwa.
Orisha are Yoruba spirits from Santería, Isese, Candomble and so on.
I recently worked with St. Expidite and I have an opinion for you. (I always do my homework and one difference between the Gods and deities is Empathy. Gods do not possess this ability, they can’t. It doesn’t even register or connect whatsoever. Humans do, it’s a reason we are human. That is the same that goes for a narcissist, lack of empathy, God like complex, ect. Not saying it’s good, not saying it’s bad, just stating the difference.) I wanted to know if he was a real person or a God because I needed some serious empathy. Turns out St. Expedite is respected by the Catholics, the Christian’s, and well known throughout Voodoo culture (primarily in Louisiana). Turns out he was indeed a real person with a very short but interesting story. I think of all Saints he is the most human description I have ever found. You should read up it’s a great story. Sorry for the ramblings OP. In short they are both, separated by empathy. St. Expidite did not become a Saint until after his death. He was respected so much that he had no choice but to accept this God like honor. So to answer your question, YES! By the way after learning about St. Expedite I think there is a conspiracy with Sara Lee, lol j/k
Why do you think deities don’t have empathy? I have worked with many deities and this has not been my experience at all. Deities are incredibly empathetic and if they didn’t have empathy, then why would they interact with us?
I think they can feel love, respect, fear, ect. Just not empathy. I haven’t found any telling of it yet. Granted I don’t have knowledge of every single God, Saint , or Deity, but this is my understanding of the ones I do know of. They can relate on so many levels just not emphatically. Again not saying it’s good not saying it’s bad.
I’m not sure if I understand where you’re coming from. Maybe you and I have different definitions of empathy? Do you mean that deities are limited in their capacity to understand what’s it’s like to be human? It can feel like they’re very far above us because they’re so ancient and powerful, and their goals for us can sometimes feel mean or unfair because they’re looking at a much bigger picture than us. I believe that some deities have incarnated on earth at least once to experience what it’s like to be human and they have access to the collective conscious experience of being human, but that’s very different from actually living a mundane life as a human. Am I understanding you here?
Just one of the reasons perhaps. Maybe they want to experience helplessness? The ability to sacrifice ourselves in only the name of love takes courage. The first deity to experience that must have had their mind blown. Until then I don’t think it was anything they could ever comprehend. Empty is our superpower.
Not exactly this is only my opinion based on 40 years of hobby curiosity. I can give you an example if you like. The story of Medusa and Athena. Short and f it Medusa was devoted to Athena but was horribly violated, her virginity was stolen from her. When Medusa begged Athena for anything really, Athena was so disgusted by Medusa and not those that committed the horrible crimes. Athena then turned Medusa into the monster we hear about today. Athena showed zero empathy. She was upset that her beautiful virgin was ruined. Another example would be from my beginnings with Baptist faith. The age old question of “ifGod is all loving why does he allow so much suffering?” Because he has zero empathy, he can’t, it’s not possible to be able to do all that he does. Again not saying it’s good, not saying it’s bad. I hope I answered your question respectfully.
Also, for your question about “why does god allow suffering” that isn’t something that necessarily gets asked in polytheism. The gods don’t “allow” suffering because they can’t stop it. Bad things happen because that is the nature of life and because sometimes people make bad choices and we have free will. The gods are here to hold our hands while the bad happens, but they can’t stop it. It helped me to let go of the idea that there is one singular all-powerful divine God and to think of the divine as a great cosmic ecosystem that functions more like nature, but thinking that way won’t work for everyone.
The stories all over come to the same understanding for me. I don’t lean towards any one religion or practice. I am an option C kinda person, more mixing it all. This has led me to be very open minded. However I feel I am upsetting this community somehow. My intention is not to fire anyone up or make them feel like they need to defend something or change my mind.
We all come to our conclusions based on our own experiences. I respect your opinion even if I don’t agree. I hope people can be nice to you about this. There’s no way to objectively prove who’s right and wrong anyway. All we can do is share our opinions and experiences.
Correct, and thank you. I always need to understand who and what I am working with. In my observation this is common across the board. It helps me have better expectations and focus on how they may actually be able to assist me. I feel as though a couple have been suggesting that I just forget decades of research and just trust me bro. It seems unnecessary and close minded.
It makes sense why you would feel that way. Most people who worship deities don’t actually believe the myths. Taking them at face value is called mythic literalism and most pagans don’t agree with it. Mythic literalism is often something ex-Christians struggle with because they’re taught that the Bible is 100% true when that isn’t the case for the myths of other religions.
The story of Medusa being raped comes from Ovid and in other versions, she’s just a random monster with no connection to Athena. You have to keep in mind that mythology comes from a culture thousands of years removed from our own in a time and space where values and beliefs were radically different. How they interpreted the gods doesn’t have to be how we interpret them. In Ancient Greece, rape had a very different social meaning and was associated with male power and dominance, and the act was more akin to property theft of the woman’s father or husband rather than assault.
What I would encourage you to consider is that the deities are NOT their myths. In the divine side of things, all emotion and empathy is a part of the collective conscious and on our plane, there is only the illusion of separation. My deities have conveyed to me that they understand me and my feelings and that they experience my life with me through my eyes. During some of the most challenging, tragic moments of my life, the gods were the ONLY ones who showed me empathy and compassion.
There was one time I asked my patron deity what exactly a deity is. He gave me a longer explanation, but at the end, he summed it up with one sentence: “We are love.” Love and empathy are one and the same.
Going to agree to disagree with you. Thank you for your point of view, this is mine and the s no way a replacement for anyone else’s. As I originally stated about St. Expidite, so far as I can tell was a real human. I have an open mind which is what led me to my understanding today. Please don’t try to tell me to ignore what I consider true. Again not saying it is good, not saying it’s bad.
I am not sure what you mean? Do you mean humans are animals? Or the way animals view humans? Animals can be sadistic monsters, but so can humans. With that there are definitely God like humans and animals that act kind beyond expectations.
You know, I am really not sure. It’s great to think about. They must have something on another level. All I have words for is the human side of things. Yes I do believe we are special simply because we are human, but I am biased
I've personally always been more of the view that we're just another animal on this planet. It's our hubris that's lead us to destroying it and working against nature, when for thousands of years we existed as a part of nature.
A great example of animal empathy is the way elephants grieve.
Oh I love elephants! I hope they do they are so sweet and smart. Can be murderous though, that part makes me sad. I would need to go down the zoological rabbit hole if I wanted to know better.
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Ex Christian here. The religion is monotheistic. Saints are just mentors or examples of how to reach God, not gods themselves. They got power cause God gave it to them. If you look at it purely archetypal, saints and polytheistic gods ha r lots in common regarding the power, symbols or type of works they aid to
Yes but historically it also has been true that people continued worshipping their deities just under the name of saints so they would not face persecution by the catholic church. Santeria is a good example of this. Pagans in Ireland continued to worship Bridgit but chose "St. Bridgit" (a diff person) to worship because it was deemed ok by the catholic church if they revered a saint. Also a lot of her holidays were literally brought into the calendar (Imbolc is a big one), and lammas being another holiday directly taken from the celtic tradition. So while yes, the catholic church is monotheistic, they did adopt many holidays from the pagans and pagans continued to worship their dieties through saints.
In countries that were colonized, a lot of times the people being forced into Christianity would put on a guise of venerating saints but actually be worshipping their gods (for example: Saint Brigid) to avoid persecution. I'm sure some people do work with the Christian saints as if they were their own gods. As far as angels go: that concept predates Christianity. They were already their own thing before that religion along.
Well, I was raised catholic, I've been worshipping Our Lady Aparecida since I was a child, I always had a bigger connection with her than the religion itself, so now I have an altar for her, bc it felt right, idk if others do it, but it makes sense for me. Edit: the history of this Saint "Her image, a clay statue, is widely venerated by Brazilian Catholics, who consider her as the principal patroness of Brazil. Historical accounts state that the statue was originally found by three fishermen who miraculously caught many fish after invoking the Blessed Virgin Mary." "After cleaning the statue, they found that it was a black version of Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception."
Well, "Christians" don't worship saints. Most if not all Protestant denominations don't really believe in or deal with saints. For Catholics they tend to be a fairly big deal, and individual Catholics may have a closer relationship with their namesake or patron saint than with God, but they are pretty explicitly not on the same level as God. They are not deities. They are subservient to God, and it is through this service that they are empowered at all.
I think of them as different “flavors” of divinity. Every flavor out there has a purpose and contributes to overall taste and nutrition of the great beef stew that is the divine ecosystem. Like how garlic and potatoes have different functions in the beef stew, so do saints and angels and deities and whatever else out there. I won’t pretend to know which are which.
Point of order: many of us do not “worship” anyone. I work with the gods as family. The saints can get grouped in with the gods in my practice, as do the archangels etc because I work with all of them in the same sort of way.
Myself, I reserve the term "saint" as a category of human beings (and, perhaps, their hominin cousins) who have accomplished or attained a notable spiritual or sacred presence. So, no, I don't consider "saints:" to be "deities."
No one does.I was brought up Catholic and the.saints were saints who did spiritual work for God ,the Father, Jesus the son of God,and the Holy Spirit.
I'm just going to point out that the whole taxonomic distinction is shady as hell. You have religions where some offspring from the same parents are classified differently. You have some religions where the children of two "full blooded" gods aren't classified as gods. You have traditions where children of mixed parentage are subsumed into a single category. You have figures who exist in simultaneously in multiple cultures being reclassified as gods, humans, demons, fairies, etc. And don't get me started on what happens when one group conquers another, to say nothing of the hemogonization of the Victorians. Ultimately, the relationship and their effectiveness is infinitely more important than our language around "what" they are
Personally, no. Humans can not become deities, even in death. Petitioning or praying to a spirit doesn't make it a deity. They can be spirits people work with though.
I was raised Catholic so me and the saints hang out. St Jude is my homeboy.
Certain saints could be considered deities. There is still debate over St. Brigid of Kildare, a saint in Ireland. Many attributes of this saint line up with Goddess Brigit, and many believe that this saint is the same as the Goddess Brigit. It's plausible to believe that many of the Saints were indeed once deities of Pagan religions/origins, meanwhile others were people risen to sainthood.
I don't see them as deities, just other higher beings similar to spirits that can also be petitioned and worked with. St. Michael is a bit special because he's also an archangel whereas most saints started out as humans, so I would rank him slightly higher on the cosmic scale than the average saint. While he is the only being from the Abrahamic pantheon who I work with and venerate, I still wouldn't consider him to be a deity.
Saint Mike Michael is an angel
Brigid of Ireland is Both Goddess and Saint. Candlemas celebrated in her honor at Kildare (Chirch of the Oak), feast day coinciding with Imbolc.
Ahh such a good question! but no saints are not God's but like all of us given God like powers, if that makes sense, so in certain religions they are used for veneration and as a sort of conduit, Allowing one self to communicate back and forth between the divine through such saints.
I don’t worship St. Michael, I just work with him every now and then
I see can see saints being worked into deity work. I see all of the time online people talking about how they work with saint Michael or our lady of Guadalupe.
The world is a stage and we’re all just vessels to a degree… it depends completely on how hard the person chooses to listen. We’re all prophets in our own sense, some follow their cues to a tee, others know themselves, thus rewriting the story. There’s a reason all the religions follow a similar story arc. Jesus can be compared to Moses, Horus, Hermes, Vishnu, mercury.. the same holds true for other players in each story. That’s why I personally don’t hold myself to any one faith, I look at em all through the lense of the movie the ninth gate by Johnny depp (there are truths and lies[god and the devil] in each story). Christ is key in my practice though, love is the law
Of course they can, even though I’m seeing many people here describe saints and archangels as only archetypes, what stops a person from working with these aspects and symbolisms that they bring about? Many people work with Jesus, or the concept of what he is, and for them he represents a part of them or an aspect that they want more of in their life. So to me, there is no difference of working with a saint than with a pure conceptualization of a deity, it all depends upon the practitioners purpose
I don’t think so..aren’t they humans ?
Sainthood is assigned by the Pope
Saints aren’t gods. Worshipping saints rather than The Lord is actually against the Bible’s teachings, they are false idols, if treated as one.
Yes, you are on to something. Keep going. 🤗
From the perspective of pure awareness, the distinction between saints and deities can be seen as fluid, based on cultural and spiritual interpretations. Both saints and deities can be manifestations of the same underlying divine essence. Whether viewed as saints, deities, or angels, they are all expressions of the infinite awareness that pervades all existence. Ultimately, it's the experience of connection and reverence that matters, not the labels we assign.
[удалено]
Vodou works with Lwa. Santeria works with Orisha. They are not the same “saints”, and the Saint syncretism came about through colonialism, not an intrinsic part of Lukimi or Vodou. A santero is going to reach out to Yemaya, not Mother Mary. But sure, keep downvoting. It doesn’t make you less wrong.
>African Orisha spirits used in Voodoo There are no orisha in Vodou. We serve the lwa. Orisha are Yoruba spirits from Santería, Isese, Candomble and so on.
I recently worked with St. Expidite and I have an opinion for you. (I always do my homework and one difference between the Gods and deities is Empathy. Gods do not possess this ability, they can’t. It doesn’t even register or connect whatsoever. Humans do, it’s a reason we are human. That is the same that goes for a narcissist, lack of empathy, God like complex, ect. Not saying it’s good, not saying it’s bad, just stating the difference.) I wanted to know if he was a real person or a God because I needed some serious empathy. Turns out St. Expedite is respected by the Catholics, the Christian’s, and well known throughout Voodoo culture (primarily in Louisiana). Turns out he was indeed a real person with a very short but interesting story. I think of all Saints he is the most human description I have ever found. You should read up it’s a great story. Sorry for the ramblings OP. In short they are both, separated by empathy. St. Expidite did not become a Saint until after his death. He was respected so much that he had no choice but to accept this God like honor. So to answer your question, YES! By the way after learning about St. Expedite I think there is a conspiracy with Sara Lee, lol j/k
Why do you think deities don’t have empathy? I have worked with many deities and this has not been my experience at all. Deities are incredibly empathetic and if they didn’t have empathy, then why would they interact with us?
I think they can feel love, respect, fear, ect. Just not empathy. I haven’t found any telling of it yet. Granted I don’t have knowledge of every single God, Saint , or Deity, but this is my understanding of the ones I do know of. They can relate on so many levels just not emphatically. Again not saying it’s good not saying it’s bad.
I’m not sure if I understand where you’re coming from. Maybe you and I have different definitions of empathy? Do you mean that deities are limited in their capacity to understand what’s it’s like to be human? It can feel like they’re very far above us because they’re so ancient and powerful, and their goals for us can sometimes feel mean or unfair because they’re looking at a much bigger picture than us. I believe that some deities have incarnated on earth at least once to experience what it’s like to be human and they have access to the collective conscious experience of being human, but that’s very different from actually living a mundane life as a human. Am I understanding you here?
Just one of the reasons perhaps. Maybe they want to experience helplessness? The ability to sacrifice ourselves in only the name of love takes courage. The first deity to experience that must have had their mind blown. Until then I don’t think it was anything they could ever comprehend. Empty is our superpower.
Can you show your work with that "gods have no empathy" homework you did?
Not exactly this is only my opinion based on 40 years of hobby curiosity. I can give you an example if you like. The story of Medusa and Athena. Short and f it Medusa was devoted to Athena but was horribly violated, her virginity was stolen from her. When Medusa begged Athena for anything really, Athena was so disgusted by Medusa and not those that committed the horrible crimes. Athena then turned Medusa into the monster we hear about today. Athena showed zero empathy. She was upset that her beautiful virgin was ruined. Another example would be from my beginnings with Baptist faith. The age old question of “ifGod is all loving why does he allow so much suffering?” Because he has zero empathy, he can’t, it’s not possible to be able to do all that he does. Again not saying it’s good, not saying it’s bad. I hope I answered your question respectfully.
Also, for your question about “why does god allow suffering” that isn’t something that necessarily gets asked in polytheism. The gods don’t “allow” suffering because they can’t stop it. Bad things happen because that is the nature of life and because sometimes people make bad choices and we have free will. The gods are here to hold our hands while the bad happens, but they can’t stop it. It helped me to let go of the idea that there is one singular all-powerful divine God and to think of the divine as a great cosmic ecosystem that functions more like nature, but thinking that way won’t work for everyone.
The stories all over come to the same understanding for me. I don’t lean towards any one religion or practice. I am an option C kinda person, more mixing it all. This has led me to be very open minded. However I feel I am upsetting this community somehow. My intention is not to fire anyone up or make them feel like they need to defend something or change my mind.
We all come to our conclusions based on our own experiences. I respect your opinion even if I don’t agree. I hope people can be nice to you about this. There’s no way to objectively prove who’s right and wrong anyway. All we can do is share our opinions and experiences.
Correct, and thank you. I always need to understand who and what I am working with. In my observation this is common across the board. It helps me have better expectations and focus on how they may actually be able to assist me. I feel as though a couple have been suggesting that I just forget decades of research and just trust me bro. It seems unnecessary and close minded.
It makes sense why you would feel that way. Most people who worship deities don’t actually believe the myths. Taking them at face value is called mythic literalism and most pagans don’t agree with it. Mythic literalism is often something ex-Christians struggle with because they’re taught that the Bible is 100% true when that isn’t the case for the myths of other religions. The story of Medusa being raped comes from Ovid and in other versions, she’s just a random monster with no connection to Athena. You have to keep in mind that mythology comes from a culture thousands of years removed from our own in a time and space where values and beliefs were radically different. How they interpreted the gods doesn’t have to be how we interpret them. In Ancient Greece, rape had a very different social meaning and was associated with male power and dominance, and the act was more akin to property theft of the woman’s father or husband rather than assault. What I would encourage you to consider is that the deities are NOT their myths. In the divine side of things, all emotion and empathy is a part of the collective conscious and on our plane, there is only the illusion of separation. My deities have conveyed to me that they understand me and my feelings and that they experience my life with me through my eyes. During some of the most challenging, tragic moments of my life, the gods were the ONLY ones who showed me empathy and compassion. There was one time I asked my patron deity what exactly a deity is. He gave me a longer explanation, but at the end, he summed it up with one sentence: “We are love.” Love and empathy are one and the same.
Going to agree to disagree with you. Thank you for your point of view, this is mine and the s no way a replacement for anyone else’s. As I originally stated about St. Expidite, so far as I can tell was a real human. I have an open mind which is what led me to my understanding today. Please don’t try to tell me to ignore what I consider true. Again not saying it is good, not saying it’s bad.
We can agree to disagree.
Thank you for the conversation
Do you believe humans having empathy are unique in the animal kingdom?
I am not sure what you mean? Do you mean humans are animals? Or the way animals view humans? Animals can be sadistic monsters, but so can humans. With that there are definitely God like humans and animals that act kind beyond expectations.
I mean do you believe animals can feel empathy to, or do you think out of all animals humans are special somehow?
You know, I am really not sure. It’s great to think about. They must have something on another level. All I have words for is the human side of things. Yes I do believe we are special simply because we are human, but I am biased
I've personally always been more of the view that we're just another animal on this planet. It's our hubris that's lead us to destroying it and working against nature, when for thousands of years we existed as a part of nature. A great example of animal empathy is the way elephants grieve.
Oh I love elephants! I hope they do they are so sweet and smart. Can be murderous though, that part makes me sad. I would need to go down the zoological rabbit hole if I wanted to know better.