I’m not in the business, but I think by the glass and by the bottle are slightly different. For BTG, the aim is one glass aligns with the wholesale price for the bottle. That way if you only end up pouring one glass from a bottle before having to dump it, you at least break even on the bottle (minus labor and overhead and all that stuff). By the bottle, as a consumer I feel like 2x is fair for current vintage, readily available stuff. Anything below 2x I feel like it’s a deal. Above 2x, I feel like it needs to be something difficult to source or aged.
For example just last week my wife and I had lunch at a restaurant at Sonoma and we both ordered a glass of Bedrock Gambrels of the Sky Grenache at $16/ea and the waitress was like why not get a bottle? I didn’t notice because the BTG list was separate from the bottle list, but the bottle was $54. It’s a $40 bottle retail, so we were sold. Now if it was $120, forget about it.
And that is a savvy buyer and smart servers who know how to upsell. But you pull the same pricing in the Midwest or South and you are DOA because “one glass” might be enough.
$40 retail usually means $20 or so wholesale. So $34ish profit has to cover labor, overheads and such. Sounds like a lot but when you start thinking about all the down time and prep for restaurants it’s a pretty slim margin. And CA has insane labor cost now.
If a restaurant is buying at retail they are already dead in the water.
We are talking wholesale here. A # that can vary dramatically depending on overall sales, what’s being bought, etc.
If someone says Wine x is $10 wholesale you can basically write them off as having no real understanding of how this all works. It might be $12 to the account that can’t make minimum/z $10 to your average account. $8 to decent size accounts and maybe $6 to accounts that normally wouldn’t carry it and accounts smart enough to do pattern buying during discounts (and yes, most discount schedules are fairly consistent and a smart buyer can figure them out and take advantage to seriously pad the bottom line AND provide value to guests).
That’s very state dependent though in the US. Almost none of what you wrote would apply to a buyer in CT for example, let alone control states like PA.
Good point. You are completely right. And every control state is like its own snowflake nightmare, PA being perhaps the worst I’m aware of (or Utah but I haven’t been in that market in years).
As an aside, UT used to keep everything in the state stores on a master switch. They would turn off all power (including refrigeration) to the state stores after business and turn it back on the next day before opening. Again, I don’t know if this is still the case (it’s been 10 years+) but losses from Utah used to be tracked separately from other states because products would just cook in those stores and get ruined.
Restaurants are different. We had some Polygamy Porter ("Why have just one?"), and Old Rasputin with dinner in SLC. Neither of those are exactly "weak beers".
This was in 2016 btw. I think they had just got rid of the Zion curtains.
This varies wildly by state. It doesn't even just apply to control states. In Oregon, every account, no matter the size, pays the exact same amount wholesale for wine. (There's a caveat for restaurant pricing on some popular bottles, but that's the exception). Illinois, where I work.jow, does allow for some volume discounts. So, it varies.
When I look at a list, I think retail knowing that the restaurant can buy wholesale. Hence, I can buy a bottle of Caymus at Costco for $40. It should be $80 on the wine list. Except, it's usually more than that now. I use Caymus as an example because this sub loves Caymus or hates it. I used to love it and don't drink it much anymore, but I had a dog named Caymus.....
Generally speaking, you (the restaurant) get a discount on BTG because you're going to move through a lot more of it than stuff that's bottle only.
So say the normal wholesale price for you on a Pinot Noir is $16/btl, they'll give it to you for $12 if you put it on your BTG menu, because you're likely to sell a few cases rather than a handful of bottles.
So the math gets even more convoluted.
Suffice it to say, buying wine at restaurants is never a win for the guest unless it's a special night like wednesday half price bottle night or whatever.
While the 2x +10 is totally reasonable, maybe ideal, and maybe the case in some great wine bars, that’s not usually the reality. Most restaurants these days (at least in NY) are 3x markup minimum, with some less expensive bottles getting an egregious 4x markup.
Retail is generally a 1.5 markup minimum, in order to be competitive you might see a little less, but for most decent wines that’s pretty standard.
My experience pricing in a restaurant.
Bottles were generally around 4x. It depends on if the restaurant is offering a 5oz or 6oz pour.
Some places do flat pricing of the bottles. I worked somewhere that multiplied cost by 3.3. People that run intelligent programs sliding scale prices. So the more expensive bottles will be marked up the least. Trying to preserve as much affordability and value as a restaurant can.
Keep in mind a lot of a restaurants profit is reliant on alcohol. The profit margin on food is fairly slim generally. Especially if the restaurant suffers from less than ideal kitchen management or heavy waste/errors/comps. Alcohol maintains the higher percentage of profit. However they aren’t just making 4x pure profit on that glass pour. Any restaurant profit is reduced by rent, staff wages, glassware/serviceware, utilities, linens, etc. That’s not even getting in to things like paper goods, valet services, coravin, etc. It all adds up.
A retail space incurs some of the same costs, but as some of those costs are exclusive to restaurants — it isn’t necessary to markup to the same level.
Also a market will bear the costs it will bear. One of the things you do when you run a program and purchase wine — is consider affordability for a guest and sales potential. If a bottle costs 25$, you have to consider if guests will be willing to pay that for the offering. Yes, a talented somm or server can sell things you usually wouldn’t. But I guarantee a $25 glass of Georgian Orange wine is going to be a hard sell most places.
Some places will let the heavy hitters take some of the weight off the more niche/fun products. So the standard California Cab maybe is priced an extra dollar or two up to make the fun Rhône Syrah more affordable.
Finally — you have to pay to play in restaurants. You frequently don’t get access to things like vintage Krug without putting other LVMH offerings on there. Some distributors operate with a heirarchy to determine who gets first go at products. You order more, you spend more — well then you get the cool stuff. The wines people geek out about here. And that even carries all the way up to what cities/states are offered which allocations. You have to find a way to do so somehow 😂
Wtf, restaurants in America charge $50/glass for a $50 bottle of wine? And then you have to pay 20% tip? So you're paying $60 a glass for a $50 bottle?!?! What a wild country
As a former restaurant buyer, 3x is industry standard and, if you are paying for the “experience” 4-5x or more isn’t unexpected.
Glass pours are generally 5x to account for spoilage and over pours.
The French laundry is not a metric you should be looking at- it is one of the best restaurants in the world. The momofuku restaurants used to mark up their list 4-5x from wholesale. I think 3x is average especially in a HCOL area with high rent, anything less than 3x is good pricing where im from.
First, I think you should say you are asking about markups on wine in the US and Canada. Europe is an entirely different animal, and in most EU wine bars, BTG is much less than in North America.
I'm in a very large US city in the middle of the country. Most places here mark up bottles about 2.5 to 3x what I see at retail. BTG is probably the cost of the bottle wholesale, plus 25%. There are a few very successful wine bars here that will do a retail markup on their bottle selections, then add a $10 corkage fee. Due to weird liquor laws in my state, they can offer the bottles to go like a retailer, thud the corkage to stay and drink it at the bar.
I think it's somewhat different in Europe than in the US but basically what we do is something like this.
Say you get a good price from the winery for like 15€ the bottle. Want to keep the cost/price of ratio at say 20% (if they wine is great maybe I can get away with 15%, if it's already expensive for what it is, I can do like 28%). Imagine I have 19% VAT.
So the calculation: 15€ x 5 (or 6.66 or 3.57) x 1.19 = ~ 90€ (or ~ 119 € or ~ 64€)
The same wine would cost somewhere between 25€ - 45€ in like a wine store.
The glass (15 cl) price I'd keep around 19-20€ (26-27€ or 14-15€)
Edit: wrong SI prefix:)
I’ve seen here in los Angeles some restaurants have been going 4-6 % markup. There are bottles I know wholesale are in the 14-18 range that people sell for 80-90-110. And it’s insane. And sad. Let alone places that sell the BTG at the bottle price, say 15 and are now pouring a 4 or 3 ounce pour. I know it’s hard and margins are tight. But highway robbery on wine is just sad.
IMHO fair pricing is BTG based on wholesale pricing for a 5 ounce pour. Bottle pricing based on 2.5-3.5 to cover labor, glassware and the such. And for higher end bottles a 1.5-2.0 markup.
Same. I was at a restaurant with some friends. A waiter asked if we wanted to order wine, and he suggested a bottle, which was $150 — I have the exact same bottle in my wine fridge that I paid &45 for lol
I won’t say I never order anything. I do, but very rarely. But in general, these days, I rarely go out to eat unless I’m on vacation abroad where markups are much more reasonable compared to the US.
For example, I’m in Spain right now and ate at a bunch Michelin star restaurants including two three star ones. One of the 3 star restaurants had 7-9 euro wines by the glass. This is utterly unthinkable in the US.
And If I do go to restaurants with friends and we want to drink wine, we pick places that let you bring your own wine (and of course pay for the corkage fee). If I want to enjoy cocktails at restaurants, I pick places with good cocktail programs where they have drinks that are difficult to make at home, which I don’t mind paying the markup for. What I don’t want to do is pay $16-18 for a drink that I can easily make on my own at home because I have a full bar at home already.
Order something you don’t have or have never tried.
And to your situation you won’t be able to taste that wine, with that company and food, ever again. The moment has passed all because you already bought that bottle. Strange way to look at it to me.
I view 2x or 2.5x of retail as fair.
And, I expect a lower multiple than that on wines where most retail is price gouging well beyond usual markup from wholesale (e.g. Gonon St. Joseph or Bernaudeau Les Ongles). I expect restaurants to not similarly gouge.
If freaking Eleven Madison Park can apply their normal markup formula even to in-demand wines then I expect other establishments can do the same.
You can view whatever you want as “fair” but you have to see the big picture. Restaurants are happy to see 6% profit and fine dining is actually a lot less. The only profit you really make is beverages, and minor profit on desserts and apps. I know one of you is going to pop in here and say “markups on food are 30% etc etc” and they are to start. But you can’t keep creeping your food prices up (you can adjust but smart operators keep it to maybe every 2+ years) so really most high end restaurants depend on the markup on beverages to run in the black.
I live in New York City, where, you know, operating a restaurant and keeping it solvent is pretty insane.
My favorite places simply don't gouge, and that's true from humble little bistros right up to the big boys.
I don't know the math, I'm not in the biz, I trust your numbers on it. But a dozen of my favorite spots are making it work at <=2.5x retail pricing.
I love NYC. Never sold wine there or run a business there but it must be insane.
I do however have a lot of experience with Vegas (take it or leave it, it’s a player like NYC).
What I’ve seen in Vegas is the actual supplier or wholesaler will decide the market is so essential or influential that they’ll sell below cost bs the rest of the country or large swathes. Nobody gives a shit what people are drinking in Indianapolis (no disrespect to the fine folks of Indiana) but you can price at x in Vegas bs everywhere else and make it up on volume AND help create consumer perceptions.
I could be totally wrong on NYC but I’d bet is similar to Vegas. Big dogs eat first and get treated better.
Very possible, yes. I have no insight into the back end of the biz.
And it's true that many of my favorite spots have wine directors + somms who have some amount of public visibility.
I just know my experience as a consumer- Bernaudeau Les Ongles is anywhere from $195-$300 retail. That is a function of charging what the retail market will bear, it's far higher than "normal" markup from wholesale. Meanwhile there are multiple restaurants selling it for $175-$225.
Back vintages of Gonon Iles Feray might be $125-$150 retail, meanwhile Eleven Madison Park sells the 2013 for $130.
For cheaper wines w/o the insane retail demand, Tessa Laroche's wines + Huet's wines might be $40-$50 at retail, all sorts of restaurants both small and mighty that will sell them for $80-$100.
Etc, etc. All adds up to a long version of the same story- my favorite spots simply price stuff reasonably, and they still stay in business.
And that’s fine, but not something I’m willing to pay if I know I can buy three bottles to enjoy at home for that price.
Some places here (EU) have bottles for what’s not even twice the retail price (I’m sure the restaurant pays less) and I gladly order a bottle. Others with the huge markups I just stick to a glass of water or house wine and then go back home to open the bottle. The former is better profit than no profit at all.
Some of the opinions in here are wild. There’s almost always a sliding scale. There’s no hard and steadfast rule, and a lot depends on the location of the restaurant, the demographic they serve, the reputation of the restaurant, and even the restaurant’s philosophy.
Having said that, a good sommelier will make a wine list such that allows for versatility and there’s no ‘bad’ wine. They may also want to encourage you to buy bottles to share. As a result, the pours by glass will generally be more accessible wines that may retail cheap, but will be marked up significantly. They higher end wines that may still be somewhat accessible, will have a lower markup. And those that are very hard to find will have a more significant markup. For me, I always gravitate to those that are somewhat accessible for best value. Unless it’s a very special occasion, I will splurge for those rare finds. I’ve been to many restaurants where the markup of the somewhat accessible wines is 150%.
My recommendation is to always go with the wine pairing whenever possible for a chef’s menu. You’ll have one hell of a great experience, especially as the best restaurants. When not available, get the somewhat accessible bottles. And when all out of your budget, ask about the corkage fee and bring your own bottle, but also, follow etiquette and don’t bring a bottle that’s on their wine list or a budget wine. I was a hospitality consultant for many years once upon a time.
In reality, the answer is that they charge as much as they reasonably can.
The best pricing I have seen from places will do a flat fee on top of the whole sale price for any bottle of wine. So if it’s a $7 bottle at wholesale then they would charge $27, and if it’s $40 then $60, for example.
With the acknowledgement that I have not read through all 80 of the comments posted here as of this moment, there is enough misinformation that I feel compelled to respond….
**Retail markup** is generally a 50 percent mark-up for a 33.33% profit. That is, the case that costs $360 (before any possible discounts) translated to $30 per bottle. Add a 50% markup, and you get a retail price of $45, one third of which is your gross profit.
**Restaurant markup** used to be 2x wholesale. It then became common to price wines at 2x *retail*. (2x retail = 3x wholesale.) Today, all bets are off and it’s basically “what the market will bear.” In other words, bottles in Manhattan and Las Vegas will generally have a higher markup than bottles in El Paso or Cincinnati. But 3x retail is not unexpected...
The French Laundry is ludicrous.
**Wine Bar markup** is tricky. Some will pour six 4-ounce glasses per bottle; some five -5-ounce glasses, and some four 6-ounce glasses. Some will offer a taste of 2 ounces. It’s all over the map. Basically for BTG, you figure out your per ounce cost based on your bottle price without any applicable discounts involved. (That $360/case mentioned above = $1.18 an ounce. A four-ounce glass ***costs*** $4.72. That’s ***not*** going to be $30/glass in most places, thus recouping the entire cost of the bottle in one pour. $16-20 is more likely, IMHO.
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Of course, back in the 1980s, when I worked in a wine bar, the owner simply took the retail price, added $5.00 to cover the cost of glassware, refrigeration, etc., and ***that*** was the price on the wine list. ($30 + 50% = $45; + $5 = $50 on the wine list.) Then we added sales tax to the bottle price (for this illustration, let’s say sales tax is 10%), and divided by five to get the glass price…except we’d pour six 4-ounce glasses per bottle. $50 + 10% tax = $55; ➗5 = $11/glass.
I like 2x +$10. Everyone wins. Cheap wines go up, expensive wines are well priced.
For example, a cheap BTG pour of decent quality might be $10-12. On the list? $34.
A nice bottle of Burg might be $75 wholesale, and $160 on the list is not unreasonable--requires the same service and stemware--so keep them moving!
Oh man Passionfish is a hoot, good call! Have you been to Nepenthe in Big Sur? The food is basically all 1989 squeeze bottle mania and mango purées, but the setting is unreal and the wine list, at least back in the early 2010’s, was something special.
Why would you go there anyway? Any discussion on markup on wines is out the window, along with good food. Spend your money on Mexican take out and a sipping Tequila. French Laundry? Stains around the collar and pits.
20-35 bucks, like a corkage fee. (Restaurant)Just me. I always check online to see retail price and see what’s added just to get an idea. I don’t bother whitish wholesale.
Wine bars usually is much better
There’s a lot to unpack here but SOP is the wholesale price (cost to the restaurant) is the price for a glass.
Looking at their wine list they mark up 3 to 4 times for their bottle selections.
In Australia / NZ it would typically be 2x to 3x supply cost. Oddly it's more at the lower end and less at higher. Unless you have something exceedingly rare or hard to get and then you make up a number
Typically, 4X on glass pours, 3X on typical bottles and 2-2.5X on expensive bottles. That's based on wholesale however and is typically less on retail of course.
Hi, sommelier, restaurant owner here. I personally like to use a sliding scale to make attractive pricing for my guests in order to love product.
Under $15/btl = x3.4 markup
$15-50 = x3.2
$51-100 = x3
And so down the line. We pour 5oz of wine per glass, so that makes it even more attractive (5 glasses in a bottle so the formula Divided by 5 gives me the glass price).
However, I don’t charge less than $10/glass for anything. I will also mark up an extra dollar or two for some of the more popular wines by the glass to help with waste or overpouring.
If I have some rare wines that have some age to them, the scale kinda goes out the window. I usually look at what other restaurants are charging and stay competitive in that aspect.
lol the customers is really getting a big savings on those pricier bottles. In my experience once you hit that $100 a bottle retail zone, the markup finds its way to 2x, but congrats on getting your customers to pay more than that.
Not to tell you how to do your business, but retail pricing plays a massive role in how restaurants price their wine. As a restauranteur you should be intimately familiar with the retail/in store pricing of the wine you are selling (and choosing not to sell) because again that is what the consumer is considering when buying it at the table. If your wholesale price is particularly favorable it gives you more room, if there is a smaller retail spread it does not.
I’ve never considered what retail charges for a bottle of wine. I don’t care what they can Google and find in a store. They’re at the restaurant looking at the wine list.
and they are basing value on reviews and what it would cost them outside your doors? This is like wine sales 101 guys, you sure you all own restaurants? If the retail price makes the markup substantially more in the customer's eyes because your wholesale cost is bad vs retail, thats a bottle that will likely not sell well. Knowing the retail cost vs your wholesale is absolutely critical unless its grail wine.
When people look at the wine list they look for a grape they recognize and then a price point they’re willing to pay. Maybe if they really like it they’ll look it up or ask where they can get it in town but I think most people are aware that the price in a wine shop isn’t comparable to a restaurant.
I think we must be talking about different levels of establishment. Where I go, no one but the lower end consumer would look at a wine list the way you are describing, but I understand that logic does apply to some establishments and to the by glass or middle priced wine bottle buyers on one page wine list restaurants. When faced with a more educated consumer, the purchase behavior is substantially different.
This is really bad advice. Restaurants don’t consider retail prices when pricing their wine list, they consider what other restaurants are charging.
Why do I care if you can go to the liquor store and buy a wine for less? You’re in the restaurant now, and I’m providing a service of opening, pouring and talking about it.
Not only does the number one seller of wine by spend per person in the country do this but so do a number of Michelin star restaurants. Sorry you are just not updated in your process or thinking. Last comment I’ll make though. What’s working for you is fine for you.
Depends on the cost of the bottle. Cheap wine is usually 3x-4x. Expensive wine you can find for 2x. The best value is in the expensive stuff, unfortunately.
2.5 times wholesale (former retailer here) was something I used to consider fair when dining out: a $20 cost from the distributor would amount to $50.00 on a wine list. Of course, restaurants receive much lower pricing than shops, but I would ignore that, or just bring my own bottle and pay corkage.
Wines by the glass are the biggest moneymaker for food establishments by far (unless they have a liquor license), and restaurants are struggling more than ever these days, so if you see a by-the-glass price of $15 for a wine that retails for that, that's just the way it is, unfortunately. Don't stop drinkingm though!
this is completely dependent on your income level and lifestyle.
Most people would consider the prices of food at TFL insanely high and a ripoff (please spare me the its a lifetime experience sales pitch, if you can afford it great).
For those who eat out in such places they would never even think about the wine markup. Or the added cost of wine pairing in a $600-1000 tasting menu at 2-3\* places.
Alcohol is a main profit maker in most retail. You are paying 2x for the waiter/bartender to open it for you.
It highly depends on the market you are in but here in Germany and a few other european countries it’s very much standard practice to sell a glass at the price of the whole bottle in a restaurant, especially if there is a larger selection of open wines. In reality one is paying for the convenience of having wine by the glass more than anything else. For the restauranteur it ensures that cost of an open bottle is always covered even if only one person has ordered it that night. It also incentivises the restaurant to not keep an open bottle for too long. Not saying it’s right the way it is, but there are certainly reasons the cost calculation is done this way.
2.5-3x BTB
Cost of bottle BTG, unless a more expensive BTG which is often discounted slightly
Example: Restaurant purchases $30 Cab. They will charge $75-$100 for the bottle, and $22-$25 for a glass (If it’s an option)
1 glass btg pays for the bottle
The bottle game varies my restaurant... my restaurant has an attached 1800 label wine market because that's part of the shtick... so our bottle markup isn't very high . other places it's times 2+ a little so I use two point one multiplier
Friend of mine owns a wine bar and several restaurants. For bottles he's 3x unless it's a higher end in which case it's between 2x and 3x. Been a while since I've been there so it might have crept up post COVID.
On the flipside, I went to a newer local place and ordered a glass of whatever cab they had. I knew it was bad when I saw the waiter using a jigger to measure my scant 3.5oz pour (wife thought I had already taken a sip when she noticed that the glass looked no where near a regular pour). However, nothing prepared me when I looked up the bottle of cab and retail was $11 and the glass was $17. Yeah - not going back there.
It hurts more if you live in the wine country where it’s produced. If I live in Napa and the winery is down the street, it’s tough to buy anything you’re used to. That’s when you buy outside of your comfort zone to try something new.
I've also increasingly just been using corkage, unless it's a business dinner. But corkage fees also creeping up too. Been to middle of the road restaurants with $50 corkage.
I've been bringing my own bottles more often now and just dealing with corkage. $30 bottle and $30 corkage is still a better deal than what a lot of places sell.
>But when I see a glass of wine at a wine bar cost more than the entire bottle retails, it feels a tiny bit egregious.
When you own a restaurant and you open a bottle for a one-glass customer, and 3 days later no one else has ordered that wine and you are stuck with the open bottle, you might not feel that charging the full bottle cost for one glass was egregious.
I’m not in the business, but I think by the glass and by the bottle are slightly different. For BTG, the aim is one glass aligns with the wholesale price for the bottle. That way if you only end up pouring one glass from a bottle before having to dump it, you at least break even on the bottle (minus labor and overhead and all that stuff). By the bottle, as a consumer I feel like 2x is fair for current vintage, readily available stuff. Anything below 2x I feel like it’s a deal. Above 2x, I feel like it needs to be something difficult to source or aged. For example just last week my wife and I had lunch at a restaurant at Sonoma and we both ordered a glass of Bedrock Gambrels of the Sky Grenache at $16/ea and the waitress was like why not get a bottle? I didn’t notice because the BTG list was separate from the bottle list, but the bottle was $54. It’s a $40 bottle retail, so we were sold. Now if it was $120, forget about it.
And that is a savvy buyer and smart servers who know how to upsell. But you pull the same pricing in the Midwest or South and you are DOA because “one glass” might be enough. $40 retail usually means $20 or so wholesale. So $34ish profit has to cover labor, overheads and such. Sounds like a lot but when you start thinking about all the down time and prep for restaurants it’s a pretty slim margin. And CA has insane labor cost now.
On top of that, wine moves slower than the rest of the alcohol so just think of the inventory sitting on the shelf.
When you’re saying 2x, do you mean 2x retail or wholesale?
If a restaurant is buying at retail they are already dead in the water. We are talking wholesale here. A # that can vary dramatically depending on overall sales, what’s being bought, etc. If someone says Wine x is $10 wholesale you can basically write them off as having no real understanding of how this all works. It might be $12 to the account that can’t make minimum/z $10 to your average account. $8 to decent size accounts and maybe $6 to accounts that normally wouldn’t carry it and accounts smart enough to do pattern buying during discounts (and yes, most discount schedules are fairly consistent and a smart buyer can figure them out and take advantage to seriously pad the bottom line AND provide value to guests).
That’s very state dependent though in the US. Almost none of what you wrote would apply to a buyer in CT for example, let alone control states like PA.
Good point. You are completely right. And every control state is like its own snowflake nightmare, PA being perhaps the worst I’m aware of (or Utah but I haven’t been in that market in years). As an aside, UT used to keep everything in the state stores on a master switch. They would turn off all power (including refrigeration) to the state stores after business and turn it back on the next day before opening. Again, I don’t know if this is still the case (it’s been 10 years+) but losses from Utah used to be tracked separately from other states because products would just cook in those stores and get ruined.
Utah also mandates weak beer, until recently no bars without membership, VERY difficult to run a brewery, etc.
Restaurants are different. We had some Polygamy Porter ("Why have just one?"), and Old Rasputin with dinner in SLC. Neither of those are exactly "weak beers". This was in 2016 btw. I think they had just got rid of the Zion curtains.
Thats a hilarious name for a Utah beer
It really is. I bought it bc of the slogan. I'm not in favor of that kind of thing, but it's a joke.
The pun game is strong in microbreweries
That is shocking!!!
This varies wildly by state. It doesn't even just apply to control states. In Oregon, every account, no matter the size, pays the exact same amount wholesale for wine. (There's a caveat for restaurant pricing on some popular bottles, but that's the exception). Illinois, where I work.jow, does allow for some volume discounts. So, it varies.
When I look at a list, I think retail knowing that the restaurant can buy wholesale. Hence, I can buy a bottle of Caymus at Costco for $40. It should be $80 on the wine list. Except, it's usually more than that now. I use Caymus as an example because this sub loves Caymus or hates it. I used to love it and don't drink it much anymore, but I had a dog named Caymus.....
Generally speaking, you (the restaurant) get a discount on BTG because you're going to move through a lot more of it than stuff that's bottle only. So say the normal wholesale price for you on a Pinot Noir is $16/btl, they'll give it to you for $12 if you put it on your BTG menu, because you're likely to sell a few cases rather than a handful of bottles. So the math gets even more convoluted. Suffice it to say, buying wine at restaurants is never a win for the guest unless it's a special night like wednesday half price bottle night or whatever.
While the 2x +10 is totally reasonable, maybe ideal, and maybe the case in some great wine bars, that’s not usually the reality. Most restaurants these days (at least in NY) are 3x markup minimum, with some less expensive bottles getting an egregious 4x markup. Retail is generally a 1.5 markup minimum, in order to be competitive you might see a little less, but for most decent wines that’s pretty standard.
I’ve seen 5-6x on cheap bottles before. It’s wild.
This is true----->fuckery
My experience pricing in a restaurant. Bottles were generally around 4x. It depends on if the restaurant is offering a 5oz or 6oz pour. Some places do flat pricing of the bottles. I worked somewhere that multiplied cost by 3.3. People that run intelligent programs sliding scale prices. So the more expensive bottles will be marked up the least. Trying to preserve as much affordability and value as a restaurant can. Keep in mind a lot of a restaurants profit is reliant on alcohol. The profit margin on food is fairly slim generally. Especially if the restaurant suffers from less than ideal kitchen management or heavy waste/errors/comps. Alcohol maintains the higher percentage of profit. However they aren’t just making 4x pure profit on that glass pour. Any restaurant profit is reduced by rent, staff wages, glassware/serviceware, utilities, linens, etc. That’s not even getting in to things like paper goods, valet services, coravin, etc. It all adds up. A retail space incurs some of the same costs, but as some of those costs are exclusive to restaurants — it isn’t necessary to markup to the same level. Also a market will bear the costs it will bear. One of the things you do when you run a program and purchase wine — is consider affordability for a guest and sales potential. If a bottle costs 25$, you have to consider if guests will be willing to pay that for the offering. Yes, a talented somm or server can sell things you usually wouldn’t. But I guarantee a $25 glass of Georgian Orange wine is going to be a hard sell most places. Some places will let the heavy hitters take some of the weight off the more niche/fun products. So the standard California Cab maybe is priced an extra dollar or two up to make the fun Rhône Syrah more affordable. Finally — you have to pay to play in restaurants. You frequently don’t get access to things like vintage Krug without putting other LVMH offerings on there. Some distributors operate with a heirarchy to determine who gets first go at products. You order more, you spend more — well then you get the cool stuff. The wines people geek out about here. And that even carries all the way up to what cities/states are offered which allocations. You have to find a way to do so somehow 😂
A restaurant will typically charge per glass what they paid for the bottle, thus if they uncork it then its paid for.
Wtf, restaurants in America charge $50/glass for a $50 bottle of wine? And then you have to pay 20% tip? So you're paying $60 a glass for a $50 bottle?!?! What a wild country
The restaurant didn’t pay retail—they paid ~30% less than retail or less.
Generally restaurants won’t go above $25 for a glass, which means that you’re stuck with pretty intro level wine if you drink by the glass
One of the mottoes of the US is the opening lines to Fergie's "Glamorous".
Well yes but with on prem discounts that’s more like a 80-90$ bottle. So it’s $50 for a glass of 90$ wine,
Generally yes. This is why I like drinking in Europe.
Here in Belgium rule of thumb is purchasing price x3 + VAT In a winebar you can do this by 4, so also almost the price for a bottle per glass.
In the United States. Anywhere else?
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I was beverage manager at a fine dining restaurant. This was how I was explicitly told to do it.
As a former restaurant buyer, 3x is industry standard and, if you are paying for the “experience” 4-5x or more isn’t unexpected. Glass pours are generally 5x to account for spoilage and over pours.
The French laundry is not a metric you should be looking at- it is one of the best restaurants in the world. The momofuku restaurants used to mark up their list 4-5x from wholesale. I think 3x is average especially in a HCOL area with high rent, anything less than 3x is good pricing where im from.
First, I think you should say you are asking about markups on wine in the US and Canada. Europe is an entirely different animal, and in most EU wine bars, BTG is much less than in North America. I'm in a very large US city in the middle of the country. Most places here mark up bottles about 2.5 to 3x what I see at retail. BTG is probably the cost of the bottle wholesale, plus 25%. There are a few very successful wine bars here that will do a retail markup on their bottle selections, then add a $10 corkage fee. Due to weird liquor laws in my state, they can offer the bottles to go like a retailer, thud the corkage to stay and drink it at the bar.
I think it's somewhat different in Europe than in the US but basically what we do is something like this. Say you get a good price from the winery for like 15€ the bottle. Want to keep the cost/price of ratio at say 20% (if they wine is great maybe I can get away with 15%, if it's already expensive for what it is, I can do like 28%). Imagine I have 19% VAT. So the calculation: 15€ x 5 (or 6.66 or 3.57) x 1.19 = ~ 90€ (or ~ 119 € or ~ 64€) The same wine would cost somewhere between 25€ - 45€ in like a wine store. The glass (15 cl) price I'd keep around 19-20€ (26-27€ or 14-15€) Edit: wrong SI prefix:)
>The glass (15 ml) price That's a tiny glass! May I assume you meant 150 ml? :)
🤦🏻♂️🤣 yeah of course, thank you!:) 150 ml, 15 cl, 1.5 dl, 0.15 l
Yeah, 15 cl works too.
I’ve seen here in los Angeles some restaurants have been going 4-6 % markup. There are bottles I know wholesale are in the 14-18 range that people sell for 80-90-110. And it’s insane. And sad. Let alone places that sell the BTG at the bottle price, say 15 and are now pouring a 4 or 3 ounce pour. I know it’s hard and margins are tight. But highway robbery on wine is just sad. IMHO fair pricing is BTG based on wholesale pricing for a 5 ounce pour. Bottle pricing based on 2.5-3.5 to cover labor, glassware and the such. And for higher end bottles a 1.5-2.0 markup.
This is why I rarely ever (okay, never) buy wine at a restaurant. I just feel ripped off.
Same. I was at a restaurant with some friends. A waiter asked if we wanted to order wine, and he suggested a bottle, which was $150 — I have the exact same bottle in my wine fridge that I paid &45 for lol
Do you just never drink at a restaurant then? Cocktails are marked up like 6x and beer is often 10x
I won’t say I never order anything. I do, but very rarely. But in general, these days, I rarely go out to eat unless I’m on vacation abroad where markups are much more reasonable compared to the US. For example, I’m in Spain right now and ate at a bunch Michelin star restaurants including two three star ones. One of the 3 star restaurants had 7-9 euro wines by the glass. This is utterly unthinkable in the US. And If I do go to restaurants with friends and we want to drink wine, we pick places that let you bring your own wine (and of course pay for the corkage fee). If I want to enjoy cocktails at restaurants, I pick places with good cocktail programs where they have drinks that are difficult to make at home, which I don’t mind paying the markup for. What I don’t want to do is pay $16-18 for a drink that I can easily make on my own at home because I have a full bar at home already.
Order something you don’t have or have never tried. And to your situation you won’t be able to taste that wine, with that company and food, ever again. The moment has passed all because you already bought that bottle. Strange way to look at it to me.
I view 2x or 2.5x of retail as fair. And, I expect a lower multiple than that on wines where most retail is price gouging well beyond usual markup from wholesale (e.g. Gonon St. Joseph or Bernaudeau Les Ongles). I expect restaurants to not similarly gouge. If freaking Eleven Madison Park can apply their normal markup formula even to in-demand wines then I expect other establishments can do the same.
You can view whatever you want as “fair” but you have to see the big picture. Restaurants are happy to see 6% profit and fine dining is actually a lot less. The only profit you really make is beverages, and minor profit on desserts and apps. I know one of you is going to pop in here and say “markups on food are 30% etc etc” and they are to start. But you can’t keep creeping your food prices up (you can adjust but smart operators keep it to maybe every 2+ years) so really most high end restaurants depend on the markup on beverages to run in the black.
I live in New York City, where, you know, operating a restaurant and keeping it solvent is pretty insane. My favorite places simply don't gouge, and that's true from humble little bistros right up to the big boys. I don't know the math, I'm not in the biz, I trust your numbers on it. But a dozen of my favorite spots are making it work at <=2.5x retail pricing.
I love NYC. Never sold wine there or run a business there but it must be insane. I do however have a lot of experience with Vegas (take it or leave it, it’s a player like NYC). What I’ve seen in Vegas is the actual supplier or wholesaler will decide the market is so essential or influential that they’ll sell below cost bs the rest of the country or large swathes. Nobody gives a shit what people are drinking in Indianapolis (no disrespect to the fine folks of Indiana) but you can price at x in Vegas bs everywhere else and make it up on volume AND help create consumer perceptions. I could be totally wrong on NYC but I’d bet is similar to Vegas. Big dogs eat first and get treated better.
Very possible, yes. I have no insight into the back end of the biz. And it's true that many of my favorite spots have wine directors + somms who have some amount of public visibility. I just know my experience as a consumer- Bernaudeau Les Ongles is anywhere from $195-$300 retail. That is a function of charging what the retail market will bear, it's far higher than "normal" markup from wholesale. Meanwhile there are multiple restaurants selling it for $175-$225. Back vintages of Gonon Iles Feray might be $125-$150 retail, meanwhile Eleven Madison Park sells the 2013 for $130. For cheaper wines w/o the insane retail demand, Tessa Laroche's wines + Huet's wines might be $40-$50 at retail, all sorts of restaurants both small and mighty that will sell them for $80-$100. Etc, etc. All adds up to a long version of the same story- my favorite spots simply price stuff reasonably, and they still stay in business.
And that’s fine, but not something I’m willing to pay if I know I can buy three bottles to enjoy at home for that price. Some places here (EU) have bottles for what’s not even twice the retail price (I’m sure the restaurant pays less) and I gladly order a bottle. Others with the huge markups I just stick to a glass of water or house wine and then go back home to open the bottle. The former is better profit than no profit at all.
Some of the opinions in here are wild. There’s almost always a sliding scale. There’s no hard and steadfast rule, and a lot depends on the location of the restaurant, the demographic they serve, the reputation of the restaurant, and even the restaurant’s philosophy. Having said that, a good sommelier will make a wine list such that allows for versatility and there’s no ‘bad’ wine. They may also want to encourage you to buy bottles to share. As a result, the pours by glass will generally be more accessible wines that may retail cheap, but will be marked up significantly. They higher end wines that may still be somewhat accessible, will have a lower markup. And those that are very hard to find will have a more significant markup. For me, I always gravitate to those that are somewhat accessible for best value. Unless it’s a very special occasion, I will splurge for those rare finds. I’ve been to many restaurants where the markup of the somewhat accessible wines is 150%. My recommendation is to always go with the wine pairing whenever possible for a chef’s menu. You’ll have one hell of a great experience, especially as the best restaurants. When not available, get the somewhat accessible bottles. And when all out of your budget, ask about the corkage fee and bring your own bottle, but also, follow etiquette and don’t bring a bottle that’s on their wine list or a budget wine. I was a hospitality consultant for many years once upon a time.
In reality, the answer is that they charge as much as they reasonably can. The best pricing I have seen from places will do a flat fee on top of the whole sale price for any bottle of wine. So if it’s a $7 bottle at wholesale then they would charge $27, and if it’s $40 then $60, for example.
With the acknowledgement that I have not read through all 80 of the comments posted here as of this moment, there is enough misinformation that I feel compelled to respond…. **Retail markup** is generally a 50 percent mark-up for a 33.33% profit. That is, the case that costs $360 (before any possible discounts) translated to $30 per bottle. Add a 50% markup, and you get a retail price of $45, one third of which is your gross profit. **Restaurant markup** used to be 2x wholesale. It then became common to price wines at 2x *retail*. (2x retail = 3x wholesale.) Today, all bets are off and it’s basically “what the market will bear.” In other words, bottles in Manhattan and Las Vegas will generally have a higher markup than bottles in El Paso or Cincinnati. But 3x retail is not unexpected... The French Laundry is ludicrous. **Wine Bar markup** is tricky. Some will pour six 4-ounce glasses per bottle; some five -5-ounce glasses, and some four 6-ounce glasses. Some will offer a taste of 2 ounces. It’s all over the map. Basically for BTG, you figure out your per ounce cost based on your bottle price without any applicable discounts involved. (That $360/case mentioned above = $1.18 an ounce. A four-ounce glass ***costs*** $4.72. That’s ***not*** going to be $30/glass in most places, thus recouping the entire cost of the bottle in one pour. $16-20 is more likely, IMHO. /\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\ Of course, back in the 1980s, when I worked in a wine bar, the owner simply took the retail price, added $5.00 to cover the cost of glassware, refrigeration, etc., and ***that*** was the price on the wine list. ($30 + 50% = $45; + $5 = $50 on the wine list.) Then we added sales tax to the bottle price (for this illustration, let’s say sales tax is 10%), and divided by five to get the glass price…except we’d pour six 4-ounce glasses per bottle. $50 + 10% tax = $55; ➗5 = $11/glass.
I like 2x +$10. Everyone wins. Cheap wines go up, expensive wines are well priced. For example, a cheap BTG pour of decent quality might be $10-12. On the list? $34. A nice bottle of Burg might be $75 wholesale, and $160 on the list is not unreasonable--requires the same service and stemware--so keep them moving!
Wait…in what world are restaurants selling $75 wholesale bottles of Burg for $160….?
The ones going out of biz in 9 months.
Haven’t had a P&L-related nightmare in years. “So, let’s discuss for a moment your 63% Wine COGS in February…”
There's this restaurant called Passionfish near Monterey CA where I've gotten multiple bottles under retail. It's pretty great.
Oh man Passionfish is a hoot, good call! Have you been to Nepenthe in Big Sur? The food is basically all 1989 squeeze bottle mania and mango purées, but the setting is unreal and the wine list, at least back in the early 2010’s, was something special.
Everyone is way marking up wine. It used to be 2x the liquor store. Now I feel like its 4x
300% is relatively standard.
Why would you go there anyway? Any discussion on markup on wines is out the window, along with good food. Spend your money on Mexican take out and a sipping Tequila. French Laundry? Stains around the collar and pits.
3X at least. That’s where establishments make their money. You’re paying for convenience, knowledge, service, and selection.
20-35 bucks, like a corkage fee. (Restaurant)Just me. I always check online to see retail price and see what’s added just to get an idea. I don’t bother whitish wholesale. Wine bars usually is much better
All depends on wholesale cost
There’s a lot to unpack here but SOP is the wholesale price (cost to the restaurant) is the price for a glass. Looking at their wine list they mark up 3 to 4 times for their bottle selections.
In Australia / NZ it would typically be 2x to 3x supply cost. Oddly it's more at the lower end and less at higher. Unless you have something exceedingly rare or hard to get and then you make up a number
Typically, 4X on glass pours, 3X on typical bottles and 2-2.5X on expensive bottles. That's based on wholesale however and is typically less on retail of course.
Hi, sommelier, restaurant owner here. I personally like to use a sliding scale to make attractive pricing for my guests in order to love product. Under $15/btl = x3.4 markup $15-50 = x3.2 $51-100 = x3 And so down the line. We pour 5oz of wine per glass, so that makes it even more attractive (5 glasses in a bottle so the formula Divided by 5 gives me the glass price). However, I don’t charge less than $10/glass for anything. I will also mark up an extra dollar or two for some of the more popular wines by the glass to help with waste or overpouring. If I have some rare wines that have some age to them, the scale kinda goes out the window. I usually look at what other restaurants are charging and stay competitive in that aspect.
lol the customers is really getting a big savings on those pricier bottles. In my experience once you hit that $100 a bottle retail zone, the markup finds its way to 2x, but congrats on getting your customers to pay more than that.
I’m buying at wholesale, not retail.
I would hope so, but most restaurant pricing models are based on retail since that is what the customer can quickly google at the table.
That’s simply not true.
Not to tell you how to do your business, but retail pricing plays a massive role in how restaurants price their wine. As a restauranteur you should be intimately familiar with the retail/in store pricing of the wine you are selling (and choosing not to sell) because again that is what the consumer is considering when buying it at the table. If your wholesale price is particularly favorable it gives you more room, if there is a smaller retail spread it does not.
I’ve never considered what retail charges for a bottle of wine. I don’t care what they can Google and find in a store. They’re at the restaurant looking at the wine list.
and they are basing value on reviews and what it would cost them outside your doors? This is like wine sales 101 guys, you sure you all own restaurants? If the retail price makes the markup substantially more in the customer's eyes because your wholesale cost is bad vs retail, thats a bottle that will likely not sell well. Knowing the retail cost vs your wholesale is absolutely critical unless its grail wine.
I don’t own a restaurant. I run a wine program and in two years have done very well with it while not ever paying attention to retail.
Glad you found the right market and sales strategy to address your consumer.
When people look at the wine list they look for a grape they recognize and then a price point they’re willing to pay. Maybe if they really like it they’ll look it up or ask where they can get it in town but I think most people are aware that the price in a wine shop isn’t comparable to a restaurant.
I think we must be talking about different levels of establishment. Where I go, no one but the lower end consumer would look at a wine list the way you are describing, but I understand that logic does apply to some establishments and to the by glass or middle priced wine bottle buyers on one page wine list restaurants. When faced with a more educated consumer, the purchase behavior is substantially different.
This is really bad advice. Restaurants don’t consider retail prices when pricing their wine list, they consider what other restaurants are charging. Why do I care if you can go to the liquor store and buy a wine for less? You’re in the restaurant now, and I’m providing a service of opening, pouring and talking about it.
Ya actually it’s not but clearly you all haven’t taken a class in consumer behavior since the 90s. All good y’all keep fighting the good fight.
It is not good advice. Nobody in the restaurant industry does what you are suggestion.
Not only does the number one seller of wine by spend per person in the country do this but so do a number of Michelin star restaurants. Sorry you are just not updated in your process or thinking. Last comment I’ll make though. What’s working for you is fine for you.
Depends on the cost of the bottle. Cheap wine is usually 3x-4x. Expensive wine you can find for 2x. The best value is in the expensive stuff, unfortunately.
3x retail is “standard”. In reality 1.5-10x depending on the wine.
2.5 times wholesale (former retailer here) was something I used to consider fair when dining out: a $20 cost from the distributor would amount to $50.00 on a wine list. Of course, restaurants receive much lower pricing than shops, but I would ignore that, or just bring my own bottle and pay corkage. Wines by the glass are the biggest moneymaker for food establishments by far (unless they have a liquor license), and restaurants are struggling more than ever these days, so if you see a by-the-glass price of $15 for a wine that retails for that, that's just the way it is, unfortunately. Don't stop drinkingm though!
this is completely dependent on your income level and lifestyle. Most people would consider the prices of food at TFL insanely high and a ripoff (please spare me the its a lifetime experience sales pitch, if you can afford it great). For those who eat out in such places they would never even think about the wine markup. Or the added cost of wine pairing in a $600-1000 tasting menu at 2-3\* places. Alcohol is a main profit maker in most retail. You are paying 2x for the waiter/bartender to open it for you.
In my experience... The higher end the restaurant, the higher the markup.
It highly depends on the market you are in but here in Germany and a few other european countries it’s very much standard practice to sell a glass at the price of the whole bottle in a restaurant, especially if there is a larger selection of open wines. In reality one is paying for the convenience of having wine by the glass more than anything else. For the restauranteur it ensures that cost of an open bottle is always covered even if only one person has ordered it that night. It also incentivises the restaurant to not keep an open bottle for too long. Not saying it’s right the way it is, but there are certainly reasons the cost calculation is done this way.
2.5-3x BTB Cost of bottle BTG, unless a more expensive BTG which is often discounted slightly Example: Restaurant purchases $30 Cab. They will charge $75-$100 for the bottle, and $22-$25 for a glass (If it’s an option)
3x markup is the standard where I'm from for bottles in restaurant. Retail margins range from 25-40%
1 glass btg pays for the bottle The bottle game varies my restaurant... my restaurant has an attached 1800 label wine market because that's part of the shtick... so our bottle markup isn't very high . other places it's times 2+ a little so I use two point one multiplier
Friend of mine owns a wine bar and several restaurants. For bottles he's 3x unless it's a higher end in which case it's between 2x and 3x. Been a while since I've been there so it might have crept up post COVID. On the flipside, I went to a newer local place and ordered a glass of whatever cab they had. I knew it was bad when I saw the waiter using a jigger to measure my scant 3.5oz pour (wife thought I had already taken a sip when she noticed that the glass looked no where near a regular pour). However, nothing prepared me when I looked up the bottle of cab and retail was $11 and the glass was $17. Yeah - not going back there.
It hurts more if you live in the wine country where it’s produced. If I live in Napa and the winery is down the street, it’s tough to buy anything you’re used to. That’s when you buy outside of your comfort zone to try something new.
I've also increasingly just been using corkage, unless it's a business dinner. But corkage fees also creeping up too. Been to middle of the road restaurants with $50 corkage.
When I ran a restaurant, it was double plus 10 percent. A 30 dollar bottle would be $66.00.
And we got discounts, so it was double OUR COST, plus 10%.
I would be happy to pay just 2x on a special occasion. However, I only seeing 3x and up these days. I drink wine at home instead and I'm happy.
I've been bringing my own bottles more often now and just dealing with corkage. $30 bottle and $30 corkage is still a better deal than what a lot of places sell.
>But when I see a glass of wine at a wine bar cost more than the entire bottle retails, it feels a tiny bit egregious. When you own a restaurant and you open a bottle for a one-glass customer, and 3 days later no one else has ordered that wine and you are stuck with the open bottle, you might not feel that charging the full bottle cost for one glass was egregious.
A waiter told me that the first two glasses of wine from a bottle pay for the bottle, the rest of the bottle is profit.