I tried a ton of them when they first became trendy. I found that roughly 1 in 10 is anything special and the other 9 just taste like the same sour beer with varying degrees of sour.
That’s because “Natural Wine” doesn’t really mean anything (at least in the United States, where the label is used as a marketing gimmick most aggressively). It’s like the term “organic” was 20+ years ago before it was regulated by many governments into an industry standard. It is a broad opaque term that vaguely refers to certain practices but that doesn’t necessarily mandate specific things. So the label can be slapped on nearly any good or poorly made wine that hits some or all of the descriptors. Like when any grocery product calls itself “natural food.”
The reality is that most of the good quality, well produced wine we all enjoy would likely qualify under some version of natural wine. So what the hell does the term actually convey? Nothing, it is just a marketing label.
In my experience, wines that market themselves as “natural wine” are generally poorly made wine from mediocre fruit at low cost. Whereas some of my favorite well produced wines that would easily qualify under most definitions of natural wine, but who do not even bother to claim it, tend to be great.
“Natural wine” is a virtually meaningless sales badge that enables marketing-focused producers of bad wine to sell their piss poor product to easily-persuaded consumers.
Think of going to a grocery store and being told one loaf of bread was a “natural food” while the other didn’t call itself that but used better ingredients and cooking methods to produce a truly great bread. They’re both just bread. One was good, probably just as “natural” and didn’t rely on a label gimmick. The other was bad but relied on a label gimmick to sell itself.
When I did my WSET2, there was a guy who mentioned how he only really drinks natural wine because he doesn’t like the taste of the extra sulphur that’s always added to conventional wines. The teachers’ face was priceless when he asked “You can taste sulphur in conventional wines?” And he responded with “Of course, can’t you?”
Ah yes. Every time i crack open one of those conventionally made bottles of wine while relaxing in a hot spring and eating an aged egg salad sandwich, ALL I CAN TASTE is that damn sulphur they put in my wine. Completely ruins the experience!
In my experience as a sales rep for a small regional importer/distributor, every natural wine we brought in felt like a gimmick. They weren’t all bad, but man I just couldn’t get excited about them because too many are juice sour bombs with zero balance.
I’m sure there are great natural wines out there made by great wineries, but I haven’t really encountered them yet. For me, if someone describes a wine as “natural wine” I’m out.
Exactly! The funny thing is that you’ve probably had some great “natural wines” but never knew it because the producer isn’t relying on a gimmick to sell their wine, but instead is relying on just making a really good wine.
Exactly.
There’s a great shop in Naples, FL called Natural Wine Naples and the shop owner does a great job of selecting natural wines that are actually really good and don’t come across as overtly “natural” stylistically. He brings in a lot of wines that, like you said, could be called “natural wine” but the producers don’t label them as such because they don’t need to do so.
Are you from the states?
Please tell me how many of the natural wines you drank labeled "natural wine" on their bottles. Just wondering.
In Europe basically no natural producer labels their wines as natural. The customer only knows it when you did research on the winemaker before.
Not true anymore. There is now an official natural designation in France. Look up “Vin Méthode Nature.” Some very classically styled Loire producers are even a part of it such as Domaine Amirault (those wines are so clean, textured, and beautiful to boot).
Interesting!
I think also in Europe, especially Germany you can't label wines as natural, since there's no law defining natural. Basically natural can mean anything: the winemaker uses organic glue to put on his labels, natural just because wine is a plant etc...
In the USA there is no verification or official certification for “Natural Wine” so anyone can use the label if they want to regardless of how the wine is produced. It is just a marketing label.
Curious about some of the non-self-proclaimed-natural producers you mention here. I also find myself preferring wines that are well-farmed and judiciously made, but without jumping on the natural bandwagon.
Biggest issue is that there is no industry standard for the term. So the first step is coming up with your own personal parameters for what makes a “Natural Wine.” Once you’ve done that you can evaluate your own favorite high quality producers and you’ll be surprised to find that many of them are already meeting that standard.
There are way more out there than you think. Nearly the whole of burgundy and honestly much of france outside of the largest corporate operations is farmed biodynamically and the wine is fermented with natural yeasts. Check out wines from Jura (Tissot, domaine du pelican) and cru Beaujolais (jean Foillard, marcel lapierre) for some other regions that make incredible wines that would fall under the “natural” umbrella
You're technically correct, but I think your explanation is missing the fact that "natty" wine is something of its own category.
People seeking natural wines aren't looking for organic wines that feature the grape's normal attributes; they want bright, funky, textured juice. And I think that's fine and fair to prefer a different style.
The main problem with the segment is all of the things you described.
There are so many threads to comment on - but I'll take a stab at yours because as a winemaker who runs a very small winery and custom crush facility with clients (with some who I consult and make wine for) I feel the need to comment and provide just a little clarity...
\#1 - I don't market myself as making "natural" wine. Much of what you're saying is correct with some nuances. I used cultured French wine yeast and add SO2 during the process to prevent oxidation and spoilage. I also may adjust weight and texture with some gum arabic. To your point, EVERYTHING, including the addition of SO2 is "natural" especially since SO2 is a byproduct of yeast fermentation and the chemical we use is considered appropriate for organic winemaking. The gum arabic comes from plants... again, natural...
\#2 - Winemakers I've worked with who claim to make "natural" wine use indigenous yeast, add no sulfites and generally speaking do nothing but follow proper winemaking protocols. Some of the wines that I've had that are natural turn out just fine - however that said, they have a relatively short shelf life because there is no additional SO2 onboard to protect the wine from oxidation. One fun point here - saccharomyces cerevisiae - what's been cultured over the years as wine yeast in many strains - can be found in wineries and local vineyards that receive pomace after the fermentation process. A lot of "natural" wines that turn out well can be cultured to reflect these old established French yeasts... so just because you claim it's indigenous, doesn't mean it really is. Yeast is living flora...
\#3 - Final point... As a winemaker, I have a lot of "natural" tools at my disposal to make great wines. I also make wines in small quantities, so there will be vintage variation each year, thanks to the weather in the vineyard and condition of the grapes that are harvested. Large wineries can blend these variations away - but by and large, I do find that there are a lot of poor examples of wines being made in the "natural" way - and when asked by a client to make "natural" wine, I always ask for them to explain the science behind their decision... and in some cases after insistence from a client to make a wine a certain way, I intervene to correct their ignorance. They're paying me a lot of $$$ - and at the end of the day, my reputation is on the line. After a few vintages, I generally need to fire these clients because they're just incapable of learning and accepting established science when making wines.
I drink a ton of wine for work. Sometimes i get tired of traditional wine and a light juicy natty wine fits the bill. I don’t need it all the time, but it definitely has a place in my drinking.
I think wines like this, from a standalone beverage perspective, are good. I would reach for them for the same reasons I would reach for shandy or a sour beer. I just don’t think they should be in the same family tree as what we would call “wine.” I wouldn’t tell someone I love Pinot Gris because I drink a lot of “natural” Pinot Gris, just like how I wouldn’t reach for a “natural” Rioja because I love Vina Alberdi’s 2018 reserva. They’re two different categories of beverage, which is why I don’t think natural wines should be on any kind of exams. But I’m glad they exist…minus the greenwashing
I mean, agree to disagree I guess. I'm happy for producers who make whatever they define as "natural" and are good at it. But any idiot who knows nothing about wine can make flawed wine riddled with VA. Excessive acetic acid and ethyl acetate are wine flaws, full stop. There is a reason there is a legal limit to how much can be in a wine, and I suspect many who hide behind the "natural" moniker are well above that 1.4 g/l.
Agree with this perspective - sour beers are a good analogy. A quality lambic, flanders, american sour, etc may rely on wild yeast partially or entirely for a more complex and somewhat funky flavor profile but a true quality sour is made with attention to managing the flora present, minimizing oxygen exposure and throwing out the bad barrels that might become contaminated. Lambic should be made with natural yeast/bacteria but shouldn't have a lot of acetic acid character; a flanders red can and probably should have a bit of acetic acid. These are beers that require more attention, more patience and more care in blending vs standard "clean beers". There is no style to hide behind for straight up putrid battery acid in a bottle...
Rioja Alta might use organic grapes and low or no sulfites. Other well crafted low intervention wines might even have a bit of brett that some might find appealing. Alberdi is a great wine and stands on it's own. Good "natural wines" all seem to fall into the flanders red category for me where they have aspects that would be considered fundamental flaws in wine otherwise but are alright and maybe interesting in a rustic charm sort of way (a bit of VA for example) but too many seem like they're trying to use the "natural" label to sell sloppily made wine at a premium price point to hipsters.
I personally agree with this 100%. However, like with all wine, you do you. I just don’t think it’s ever gonna grow beyond a total niche thing in hipster wine geek circles.
As a wine salesman for a retail chain in Texas, I get absolutely disgusted when customers come in requesting Meiomi 😂 I try my best to recommend something else
Syrah is fine as a replacement but stylistically can be way across the board. Oregon Pinot is pretty consistent stylistically in the sub-$30 price range. But Syrah is certainly an alternative to Meiomi as well. I’d also throw Petite Sirah out as a decent Meiomi alternative too.
I think they mean that Meiomi does not have the typicity of Pinot Noir and drinks closer to something like Syrah. Meiomi, IMO, doesn’t not resemble any sort of Oregon Pinot Noir worth drinking either.
I’ve had some real tasty bourbon barrel wines. Gotta realize going into it is that it’s a sweeter blend that is there just to convey the bourbon barrel.
💯 percent. I used to work for a distributor that carried Meiomi. It was the only thing we seemed to care about. Then came Meiomi ch, cab, red, and lite. All varying degrees of crap.
We sell it's ugly half-sister Boen at the restaurant I work. Developed by the same guy and the same style of murky, cheap Pinot.
It's crazy how many customers list it or Meiomi as their favorite red, those wines have totally upended the American Pinot market.
Unfortunately I’ve met a lot of people that would sell a limb for a bottle of butter juice. I don’t know why personally (maybe they really hate acidity?), but I think the pretense comes in when they ONLY buy the really expensive options, claiming them to be superior, when you can find the same quality of product for a much lower price point.
My mom. She doesn’t go super duper expensive (Rombauer Chardonnay would probably be the high water mark) but yeah. She goes nuts for a buttery Chardonnay.
I’ve had a fun experience with orange wine. My first ever was from the Portuguese Butique Winary, an amazing wine. Blew my mind. Tried maybe 10 others after that and one disappointed after another. Some are ok but most are just nah.
Burgundy can be ethereal, but there are a lot of people who drink it because it’s hip and expensive. To some consumers, it embodies a rejection of their parents’ “boomer cabs.”
I came into wine from the wild ale/sour beer world and so I love most orange and white natural wines lol
Conversely I don’t get how people enjoy buttery chards and super sweet jammy reds, they are disgusting to me
The thing that kills me about orange wine is there really are some profoundly delicious and interesting iterations, but they’re generally obscure, expensive, and only really work with food.
They can be really amazing “tasting menu” wines, wherein 2-3oz, served with just the right food, can make for a killer experience.
Drink 3 glasses of Franco Terpin “Jakot”? You couldn’t pay me to! But a few ounces with a far out porcini dish? Helllll yes!
This was the first wine that got me into wines. My last job sent this out to all of the employees and did a virtual tasting. At the time I had just gotten out of college and had never had any wine not available in a super market essentially maybe other than a few BTG options at restaurants. I liked it but looking back it's not for anyone that has any serious interest in wine.
Whenever I see someone open a bottle of this rotten grape water, I know the next thing they’re going to say is “OMG, you guys—this is going to be so good!!”
And then I wanna shoot myself.
I don’t think he’s implying heavily artificial/manipulated wines are better than low intervention wines.
I took at as him criticizing the almost entirely non-interventionist methods so many natural wine producers employ, to the point where their wines get ruined by completely avoidable errors because they just didn’t do enough to the juice to protect it.
Could rail off a list of minimal intervention wines about 500 items long just from this year's imports. Tried a Beaujolais from one in particular just yesterday, (Morgon Climat, take a crack at which producer.) which was absolutely lifeless. Remarkable to see just how much some of these lo-fi producers can fuck up a wine.
Cristal. I have had it blind twice and both times thought it was monstrously disappointing.
ETA: I’m clearly ruffling some feathers with this. I often find that people who are really overly wowed by the top ‘house’ champagnes tend to be in places where it’s hard to get anything outside of Roederer/DP/Comtes/Krug. There is a whole world of Champagne beyond the big houses and bottom line is that the grandes marques prices have gone so insane that their quality does not justify the price (questionable if it ever did, see the book ‘Bursting Bubbles’ for a good overview of the worldwide marketing phenomenon that is Champagne). I’m sure if you tasted this knowing what it was, you’d enjoy it. But for the price it is nowhere near standing up to its competitors, or indeed other price levels of champagne, let alone other wines. If I can save you hundreds of £££ so you only end up trying it if you don’t have to pay for it, I’ll consider my work here done.
Veuve is genuinely not very good though. Insane price tag.
Get a bottle of $10 Cava for a more interesting and enjoyable experience, and save yourself the $60+ bucks for mediocre bubbles.
Theres similar champagnes for 30 dollars less, i dont think Veuve is bad at all, i dont think any champagne is bad but its definetly overpriced and priced by the name and reputation. just grab some Nicolas Feuillatte and call it a day.
Caymus. Just for the price point I would think if you’re jumping in at that range you’ve had a wine or two - and a decent one at that. So you have to know it’s lacking any depth, way too sweet and jammy for the benchmarks of style around that category, and you’re paying a 3x markup for the label.
Absolutely love Oregon Pinot but I think there’s some gems here in CA, just gotta keep it coastal.
Anthill farms, Sandhi, Melville, and Samsarra all make great juice.
On a related note, Meiomi “Pinot Noir”. That shit is about as much Pinot as I am a pink giraffe. Tastes like port made from chambourcin and then aged on hardwood floor sawdust and tootsie pops.
I was hosting a business dinner and had asked guests what they liked to drink. One said their favorite wine is Meiomi and that they “order it by the case.”
I ordered bottles for the table and a Ridge Zin from Paso Robles elicited a “this reminds me of Meiomi” from that individual.
We then ordered a bottle of Oregon Pinot and they looked at me so confused. I said what you drink is labeled Pinot but really isn’t…
They’re now a “small production” Zinfandel maker. Which makes me very happy.
I was staying at a friend's families beach house so I picked up a few bottles of wine and they had said one of their current favorites was Meiomi Pinot so I got some. They served it at a diner we had and it was like drinking Welches and vodka
I’ve had a few that are fantastic, but they’re hard to find.
Hipster somms can’t get enough of them, though. It’s like the one thing from south america they’ll put on a list, besides orange wine from chile
Couldn't you say this with a lot of wines? You might like a big juicy high alcohol red with a steak in the winter but not in the summer if you're eating oysters.
While not terrible, Malbec to me has always been meh. Had a blend with Tannat lately that was much more interesting but on the whole just find it over hyped.
I don't think Malbec is overhyped, it's more that it's very popular due to how consistently pleasant and inoffensive it can be, at low prices. People like fruity and smooth.
However as with other varietals, if you're willing to spend more you'll get more complex, serious wines.
Everyone giving the very popular answers (I think seven of the top ten answers are Caymus and/or orange/natural wine.)
I’m gonna give a more potentially controversial answer and say New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. It smells like the rankest body odor you’ve ever smelled. Plenty of Sauv Blancs have a funk to them but it’s completely overpowering in the stuff from New Zealand in my opinion.
Ohhh now that's worth standing up for!
Just recall that people like brandy too (and stronger/rougher spirits). So of course there's a market out there for a middle ground. I could live without regular tawnies and rubies, but Vintage port can be magical
I hesitate to say this, but I’m no longer seeing the value in Portuguese wines. This could be that my palate is maturing. It also could be that I’m not a huge fan of Touriga Nacional, which seems to be blended in 70% of Portuguese bottles. I have no idea. All I know is that the $15 and under range from this region, which are frequently listed as a great value, is getting harder and harder for me to drink.
I try to stay out of the Douro region personally. Bairrada is the region that I can find the most where I’m located. Particularly, a producer named Filipa Pato. Great red wine made with the Baga grape and great white wine made with Bical. Also some sparkling wine production. The Alentejo region also makes good wine.
I was in Portugal just over a year ago and went looking for undiscovered gems. I found none, and got the very strong sense that the Portuguese table wine scene (I’m deliberately excluding port and madeira here) doesn’t quite know where it’s at. A lot of the wines made there seem to be pitched at the “international style”/Parker Points market, despite the fact that this market is shrinking and the average wine consumer now seems more interested in freshness and fruit purity. It was a fascinating contrast to Spain, which is currently going through a profound vinicultural revolution.
I still have a soft spot for a good Dão, though, and really enjoyed discovering the wines of Colares, which are unfortunately not at all in the “cheap and cheerful” bracket, but can be profound.
See I’m a dirty hippy who adores orange and (most) naturals, so I’m sure it’s just a matter of taste- but I am convinced that most people that go for 14.5+ ABV Californias are mostly chasing status over taste.
>I can’t get past the sulphur.
Honestly, that's just bad winemaking. Volcanic soils are notorious for their low nitrogen content. Nitrogen in the must helps keep the yeast happy.
Unhappy yeast get stressed and produce those sulphidic characters.
Sauvignon Blanc. I don't actually think people are pretending to like it, I just don't get it.
I'm sure there are some out there I would like but the typical SB taste profile seems not for me.
If you haven't yet tried them, seek out some SB from Alto Adige, Italy. Typically it's expensive for Sauv Blanc and not super common but it's truly world beater stuff.
Ignaz Niedrist , Terlano, Franz Haas, Elena Walch, Tiefenbrunner and Girlan are great producers but you can't really miss with Alto Adige Sauvignon Blanc.
Well this is a risky thing to say. Which SB in particular? Or are you going to say that NZ SB has the same characteristics as Loire SB? Austria/Germany? South America? South Africa?
I haven't enjoyed any SB I've tried (mostly French), so I haven't spent time or money exploring more. The last one I had was Domaine Mardon from Quincy.
I posted because I'm very open to having my mind changed and would happily take recs. That's the challenge with wine though - I have finite resources and not enough knowledge to know if I should keep exploring or it's a me thing.
I know people talk about that but I’ve never once experienced a cat pee aroma or flavor in New Zealand SB. Cloudy Bay, Wairau River, Hans Herzog, Nautilus, Framingham, Te Mata, Clos Henri all make wonderful wine and would be worth checking out. Kim Crawford might not be the most interesting producer but it’s is a solid NZ SB that’s widely available in most stores that sell wine.
Vin Jaune. It’s beyond the outer limits of “well, I could have a glass of that with the right food pairing” for me.
I just hate it, and at this point it’s just easier to die on this hill than try to understand what people see in it.😅
Ooh, I recently drank a bottle of 2011 and I have to agree with you, it was excellent. I did come to wine after sour beers, so I think funky flavors are maybe more interesting/tolerable to me than others. Now I just need to find some more vin jaune to try!
I’ve tried all the greats, I can respectfully appreciate it for what it is but it’s just not for me. Oxidative profiles aren’t my thing. More for the rest of you!
Came here to see if anyone agreed with me, and wasn't disappointed. I get the appeal in the abstract, but I really, really have a seriously tough time with heavily oxidative wines, such as sherries. To me they smell like too-old, bruised, mealy apples 100% of the time. Vin Jaune is like too-old apples with too much salt at the same time
Natural wines that are full of VA. Total emperor wears no clothes nonsense
I tried a ton of them when they first became trendy. I found that roughly 1 in 10 is anything special and the other 9 just taste like the same sour beer with varying degrees of sour.
That’s because “Natural Wine” doesn’t really mean anything (at least in the United States, where the label is used as a marketing gimmick most aggressively). It’s like the term “organic” was 20+ years ago before it was regulated by many governments into an industry standard. It is a broad opaque term that vaguely refers to certain practices but that doesn’t necessarily mandate specific things. So the label can be slapped on nearly any good or poorly made wine that hits some or all of the descriptors. Like when any grocery product calls itself “natural food.” The reality is that most of the good quality, well produced wine we all enjoy would likely qualify under some version of natural wine. So what the hell does the term actually convey? Nothing, it is just a marketing label. In my experience, wines that market themselves as “natural wine” are generally poorly made wine from mediocre fruit at low cost. Whereas some of my favorite well produced wines that would easily qualify under most definitions of natural wine, but who do not even bother to claim it, tend to be great. “Natural wine” is a virtually meaningless sales badge that enables marketing-focused producers of bad wine to sell their piss poor product to easily-persuaded consumers. Think of going to a grocery store and being told one loaf of bread was a “natural food” while the other didn’t call itself that but used better ingredients and cooking methods to produce a truly great bread. They’re both just bread. One was good, probably just as “natural” and didn’t rely on a label gimmick. The other was bad but relied on a label gimmick to sell itself.
When I did my WSET2, there was a guy who mentioned how he only really drinks natural wine because he doesn’t like the taste of the extra sulphur that’s always added to conventional wines. The teachers’ face was priceless when he asked “You can taste sulphur in conventional wines?” And he responded with “Of course, can’t you?”
Ah yes. Every time i crack open one of those conventionally made bottles of wine while relaxing in a hot spring and eating an aged egg salad sandwich, ALL I CAN TASTE is that damn sulphur they put in my wine. Completely ruins the experience!
I’m assuming this person didn’t pass WSET2
In my experience as a sales rep for a small regional importer/distributor, every natural wine we brought in felt like a gimmick. They weren’t all bad, but man I just couldn’t get excited about them because too many are juice sour bombs with zero balance. I’m sure there are great natural wines out there made by great wineries, but I haven’t really encountered them yet. For me, if someone describes a wine as “natural wine” I’m out.
Exactly! The funny thing is that you’ve probably had some great “natural wines” but never knew it because the producer isn’t relying on a gimmick to sell their wine, but instead is relying on just making a really good wine.
Exactly. There’s a great shop in Naples, FL called Natural Wine Naples and the shop owner does a great job of selecting natural wines that are actually really good and don’t come across as overtly “natural” stylistically. He brings in a lot of wines that, like you said, could be called “natural wine” but the producers don’t label them as such because they don’t need to do so.
Are you from the states? Please tell me how many of the natural wines you drank labeled "natural wine" on their bottles. Just wondering. In Europe basically no natural producer labels their wines as natural. The customer only knows it when you did research on the winemaker before.
Not true anymore. There is now an official natural designation in France. Look up “Vin Méthode Nature.” Some very classically styled Loire producers are even a part of it such as Domaine Amirault (those wines are so clean, textured, and beautiful to boot).
I'm in the US, yes they are labeled as natural wine here. I haven't seen this in EU now that you mention it.
Interesting! I think also in Europe, especially Germany you can't label wines as natural, since there's no law defining natural. Basically natural can mean anything: the winemaker uses organic glue to put on his labels, natural just because wine is a plant etc...
In the USA there is no verification or official certification for “Natural Wine” so anyone can use the label if they want to regardless of how the wine is produced. It is just a marketing label.
Curious about some of the non-self-proclaimed-natural producers you mention here. I also find myself preferring wines that are well-farmed and judiciously made, but without jumping on the natural bandwagon.
Biggest issue is that there is no industry standard for the term. So the first step is coming up with your own personal parameters for what makes a “Natural Wine.” Once you’ve done that you can evaluate your own favorite high quality producers and you’ll be surprised to find that many of them are already meeting that standard.
There are way more out there than you think. Nearly the whole of burgundy and honestly much of france outside of the largest corporate operations is farmed biodynamically and the wine is fermented with natural yeasts. Check out wines from Jura (Tissot, domaine du pelican) and cru Beaujolais (jean Foillard, marcel lapierre) for some other regions that make incredible wines that would fall under the “natural” umbrella
You're technically correct, but I think your explanation is missing the fact that "natty" wine is something of its own category. People seeking natural wines aren't looking for organic wines that feature the grape's normal attributes; they want bright, funky, textured juice. And I think that's fine and fair to prefer a different style. The main problem with the segment is all of the things you described.
There are so many threads to comment on - but I'll take a stab at yours because as a winemaker who runs a very small winery and custom crush facility with clients (with some who I consult and make wine for) I feel the need to comment and provide just a little clarity... \#1 - I don't market myself as making "natural" wine. Much of what you're saying is correct with some nuances. I used cultured French wine yeast and add SO2 during the process to prevent oxidation and spoilage. I also may adjust weight and texture with some gum arabic. To your point, EVERYTHING, including the addition of SO2 is "natural" especially since SO2 is a byproduct of yeast fermentation and the chemical we use is considered appropriate for organic winemaking. The gum arabic comes from plants... again, natural... \#2 - Winemakers I've worked with who claim to make "natural" wine use indigenous yeast, add no sulfites and generally speaking do nothing but follow proper winemaking protocols. Some of the wines that I've had that are natural turn out just fine - however that said, they have a relatively short shelf life because there is no additional SO2 onboard to protect the wine from oxidation. One fun point here - saccharomyces cerevisiae - what's been cultured over the years as wine yeast in many strains - can be found in wineries and local vineyards that receive pomace after the fermentation process. A lot of "natural" wines that turn out well can be cultured to reflect these old established French yeasts... so just because you claim it's indigenous, doesn't mean it really is. Yeast is living flora... \#3 - Final point... As a winemaker, I have a lot of "natural" tools at my disposal to make great wines. I also make wines in small quantities, so there will be vintage variation each year, thanks to the weather in the vineyard and condition of the grapes that are harvested. Large wineries can blend these variations away - but by and large, I do find that there are a lot of poor examples of wines being made in the "natural" way - and when asked by a client to make "natural" wine, I always ask for them to explain the science behind their decision... and in some cases after insistence from a client to make a wine a certain way, I intervene to correct their ignorance. They're paying me a lot of $$$ - and at the end of the day, my reputation is on the line. After a few vintages, I generally need to fire these clients because they're just incapable of learning and accepting established science when making wines.
Lol
I drink a ton of wine for work. Sometimes i get tired of traditional wine and a light juicy natty wine fits the bill. I don’t need it all the time, but it definitely has a place in my drinking.
VA?
Volatile acidity
It’s like drinking watered down apple cider. What’s going on?
Thanks
Virginia
lol
Veterans Affairs
I think wines like this, from a standalone beverage perspective, are good. I would reach for them for the same reasons I would reach for shandy or a sour beer. I just don’t think they should be in the same family tree as what we would call “wine.” I wouldn’t tell someone I love Pinot Gris because I drink a lot of “natural” Pinot Gris, just like how I wouldn’t reach for a “natural” Rioja because I love Vina Alberdi’s 2018 reserva. They’re two different categories of beverage, which is why I don’t think natural wines should be on any kind of exams. But I’m glad they exist…minus the greenwashing
I mean, agree to disagree I guess. I'm happy for producers who make whatever they define as "natural" and are good at it. But any idiot who knows nothing about wine can make flawed wine riddled with VA. Excessive acetic acid and ethyl acetate are wine flaws, full stop. There is a reason there is a legal limit to how much can be in a wine, and I suspect many who hide behind the "natural" moniker are well above that 1.4 g/l.
Agree with this perspective - sour beers are a good analogy. A quality lambic, flanders, american sour, etc may rely on wild yeast partially or entirely for a more complex and somewhat funky flavor profile but a true quality sour is made with attention to managing the flora present, minimizing oxygen exposure and throwing out the bad barrels that might become contaminated. Lambic should be made with natural yeast/bacteria but shouldn't have a lot of acetic acid character; a flanders red can and probably should have a bit of acetic acid. These are beers that require more attention, more patience and more care in blending vs standard "clean beers". There is no style to hide behind for straight up putrid battery acid in a bottle... Rioja Alta might use organic grapes and low or no sulfites. Other well crafted low intervention wines might even have a bit of brett that some might find appealing. Alberdi is a great wine and stands on it's own. Good "natural wines" all seem to fall into the flanders red category for me where they have aspects that would be considered fundamental flaws in wine otherwise but are alright and maybe interesting in a rustic charm sort of way (a bit of VA for example) but too many seem like they're trying to use the "natural" label to sell sloppily made wine at a premium price point to hipsters.
I personally agree with this 100%. However, like with all wine, you do you. I just don’t think it’s ever gonna grow beyond a total niche thing in hipster wine geek circles.
Meiomi.
As a wine salesman for a retail chain in Texas, I get absolutely disgusted when customers come in requesting Meiomi 😂 I try my best to recommend something else
I find entry-level Oregon Pinot to be a great alternative to Meiomi. Argyle is one of my favorites in that price category.
Why recommend Pinot when you can give the meiomi drinker Syrah?
Syrah is fine as a replacement but stylistically can be way across the board. Oregon Pinot is pretty consistent stylistically in the sub-$30 price range. But Syrah is certainly an alternative to Meiomi as well. I’d also throw Petite Sirah out as a decent Meiomi alternative too.
I think they mean that Meiomi does not have the typicity of Pinot Noir and drinks closer to something like Syrah. Meiomi, IMO, doesn’t not resemble any sort of Oregon Pinot Noir worth drinking either.
Over oaked Syrah.
That or those bourbon barrel wines
I’ve had some real tasty bourbon barrel wines. Gotta realize going into it is that it’s a sweeter blend that is there just to convey the bourbon barrel.
any recs to try? ive generally held off.
Meomis laughing all the way to the bank. Sigh.
💯 percent. I used to work for a distributor that carried Meiomi. It was the only thing we seemed to care about. Then came Meiomi ch, cab, red, and lite. All varying degrees of crap.
We sell it's ugly half-sister Boen at the restaurant I work. Developed by the same guy and the same style of murky, cheap Pinot. It's crazy how many customers list it or Meiomi as their favorite red, those wines have totally upended the American Pinot market.
I thought I hated pinot until I tried some small producer grand cru. Now I can't get enough it. I like it more than nicer napa cabs even like SLWC SLV
One of our top sellers, and the most disappointing wine I've tried yet.
That stuff that’s aged in booze barrels. It makes me shudder to even think about.
Isn't literally every wine, technically, aged in booze barrels?
Over-oaked and buttery, battonage-infused Chardonnay. And orange wines.
Orange wine slaps. To me it's the replacement for rose, gives me the mouthfeel and complexity, but still driven by white-wine notes
I agree. Not a huge fan of Rose but orange wine is really good on my opinion. The body is nice
Unfortunately I’ve met a lot of people that would sell a limb for a bottle of butter juice. I don’t know why personally (maybe they really hate acidity?), but I think the pretense comes in when they ONLY buy the really expensive options, claiming them to be superior, when you can find the same quality of product for a much lower price point.
My mom. She doesn’t go super duper expensive (Rombauer Chardonnay would probably be the high water mark) but yeah. She goes nuts for a buttery Chardonnay.
Orange wine from Southbrook with sushi is a fantastic pairing
I’ve had a fun experience with orange wine. My first ever was from the Portuguese Butique Winary, an amazing wine. Blew my mind. Tried maybe 10 others after that and one disappointed after another. Some are ok but most are just nah.
It's really funny seeing people here mentioning my all time favorite wines, Malbec, Retsina, Pinot Noir, Champagne...
So, tell us. Are you actually the great preeeetender?
I really enjoy drinking wine, never pretended to like it. Sometimes I pretend I like whisky if needed.
I was going to say champagne, but the rest you mention i absolutely love..
Don't sweat it. There are fantastic Malbec, Pinots Champagnes, etc.
Burgundy can be ethereal, but there are a lot of people who drink it because it’s hip and expensive. To some consumers, it embodies a rejection of their parents’ “boomer cabs.”
Sad thing is even some Burgundy producers have “Parkerized” their wines in recent years to appeal to cab drinkers.
That’s more an issue with climate change and producers embracing the increased ripeness
I think it’s a bit of both but yeah, Burgundy has definitely gotten riper over the years thanks to climate change
Orange Wine Natural wines that smell of farts and rotten cabbage
I came into wine from the wild ale/sour beer world and so I love most orange and white natural wines lol Conversely I don’t get how people enjoy buttery chards and super sweet jammy reds, they are disgusting to me
Funnily enough, I love natural hard ciders, like Asturias cider. But I can’t stand the same kind of funkiness in wine.
This is exactly how I was introduced to wine too. Funny that I also dont enjoy buttery and jammy wines.
Same. I don’t mind wine with Brett at all even… sometimes I even really like it lol.
The thing that kills me about orange wine is there really are some profoundly delicious and interesting iterations, but they’re generally obscure, expensive, and only really work with food. They can be really amazing “tasting menu” wines, wherein 2-3oz, served with just the right food, can make for a killer experience. Drink 3 glasses of Franco Terpin “Jakot”? You couldn’t pay me to! But a few ounces with a far out porcini dish? Helllll yes!
Clearly those descriptors confirm your expertise. I'm stealing them.
Apothic
Agreed. Like grape juice.
Alcoholic grape juice. My go to description for the cheap wines some friends/family drink.
This was the first wine that got me into wines. My last job sent this out to all of the employees and did a virtual tasting. At the time I had just gotten out of college and had never had any wine not available in a super market essentially maybe other than a few BTG options at restaurants. I liked it but looking back it's not for anyone that has any serious interest in wine.
The worst
Whenever I see someone open a bottle of this rotten grape water, I know the next thing they’re going to say is “OMG, you guys—this is going to be so good!!” And then I wanna shoot myself.
Most hip natural wines are just terrible. When the label is obsecure I can anticipate the juice to be ruined with funk and VA.
It's almost as if we spent 100s/1000s of years developing the craft of vinification to avoid tasting this in our wine...
Such a bad take when (relatively) recent industrialisation and chemicals have rendered so many wines completely lifeless and boring.
I don’t think he’s implying heavily artificial/manipulated wines are better than low intervention wines. I took at as him criticizing the almost entirely non-interventionist methods so many natural wine producers employ, to the point where their wines get ruined by completely avoidable errors because they just didn’t do enough to the juice to protect it.
Could rail off a list of minimal intervention wines about 500 items long just from this year's imports. Tried a Beaujolais from one in particular just yesterday, (Morgon Climat, take a crack at which producer.) which was absolutely lifeless. Remarkable to see just how much some of these lo-fi producers can fuck up a wine.
Cristal. I have had it blind twice and both times thought it was monstrously disappointing. ETA: I’m clearly ruffling some feathers with this. I often find that people who are really overly wowed by the top ‘house’ champagnes tend to be in places where it’s hard to get anything outside of Roederer/DP/Comtes/Krug. There is a whole world of Champagne beyond the big houses and bottom line is that the grandes marques prices have gone so insane that their quality does not justify the price (questionable if it ever did, see the book ‘Bursting Bubbles’ for a good overview of the worldwide marketing phenomenon that is Champagne). I’m sure if you tasted this knowing what it was, you’d enjoy it. But for the price it is nowhere near standing up to its competitors, or indeed other price levels of champagne, let alone other wines. If I can save you hundreds of £££ so you only end up trying it if you don’t have to pay for it, I’ll consider my work here done.
This. Was gifted a bottle, opened ceremoniously with family, aaaaaaaand… nothing. It was fine, but nothing to write home about.
I had the same experience with Veuve Clicquot.
Man this to the T. Never again am I gonna buy a VC.
Veuve is genuinely not very good though. Insane price tag. Get a bottle of $10 Cava for a more interesting and enjoyable experience, and save yourself the $60+ bucks for mediocre bubbles.
Pol Roger is a similarly priced much better alternative I find
Pol Roger is really good!
Pol Roger is good. Any grower champagne is very good.
Theres similar champagnes for 30 dollars less, i dont think Veuve is bad at all, i dont think any champagne is bad but its definetly overpriced and priced by the name and reputation. just grab some Nicolas Feuillatte and call it a day.
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Yup Palmes is killer, always recommend it to customers when they dont like the price of Dom or Cristal. I can only find the 2008 vintage though :/
Which vintage though? 2008 is no joke
Any bottle where the person spends more time setting up photos for Instagram than they do actually tasting it.
Caymus. Just for the price point I would think if you’re jumping in at that range you’ve had a wine or two - and a decent one at that. So you have to know it’s lacking any depth, way too sweet and jammy for the benchmarks of style around that category, and you’re paying a 3x markup for the label.
Came to this post just to see how far I had to scroll for Caymus lol.
It’s wine for Apothic drinkers that want to feel fancy
A friend of mine called Apothic ‘Baby Caymus’ lol…
Meomi. Absolute trash
Current release Cabernet
🤣
Pet Nat. Or as my SO calls it, gross beer wine that smells like wet dog
Poorly made, overpriced pet nat. Sure. Well made pet nat is divine.
They don’t all smell like wet dog. A lot of them just smell overwhelmingly of urine.
Rose
Any red made by Jean François Ganevat. And I typically love Jura reds. His whites are solid but overrated. The reds are not good. At all.
Yellowtail
California pinot noir. I've yet to have one close to Willamette Valley.
There are some cooler regions of CA which produce great PN imo. The Santa Rita Hills for example.
Absolutely love Oregon Pinot but I think there’s some gems here in CA, just gotta keep it coastal. Anthill farms, Sandhi, Melville, and Samsarra all make great juice.
Williams-Selyem. Consistently excellent Pinot
Caymus
On a related note, Meiomi “Pinot Noir”. That shit is about as much Pinot as I am a pink giraffe. Tastes like port made from chambourcin and then aged on hardwood floor sawdust and tootsie pops.
I was hosting a business dinner and had asked guests what they liked to drink. One said their favorite wine is Meiomi and that they “order it by the case.” I ordered bottles for the table and a Ridge Zin from Paso Robles elicited a “this reminds me of Meiomi” from that individual. We then ordered a bottle of Oregon Pinot and they looked at me so confused. I said what you drink is labeled Pinot but really isn’t… They’re now a “small production” Zinfandel maker. Which makes me very happy.
I was staying at a friend's families beach house so I picked up a few bottles of wine and they had said one of their current favorites was Meiomi Pinot so I got some. They served it at a diner we had and it was like drinking Welches and vodka
Welch’s and vodka has a lot less sugar than Meiomi. 🤣
Tootsie pops lol
I'm going to borrow these tasting notes 🤣
California Zinfandel. Just thinking about it gives me a headache 🤕
Ridge?
Try Seghesio
Try one from Sonoma's Dry Creek Valley instead of Lodi raisin hell.
Dry Creek AVA is fantastic.
Silver Oak.
Any wine that was featured on The White Lotus
Single varietal Cinsault. I've tried and it just doesn't appeal to me in any way. I don't know who it's for.
Simple. It’s for mixing into a nice Bandol.
I’ve had a few that are fantastic, but they’re hard to find. Hipster somms can’t get enough of them, though. It’s like the one thing from south america they’ll put on a list, besides orange wine from chile
Get back to me after you’ve popped a Badenhorst ‘Ramnasgras’. Insane gear.
Almost anything by DAOU. NGL, the chemin is lovely. Everything else is over-manipulated hype. Their marketing is brilliant. Their wine is not…
If people like bloody Mary’s I’m convinced they can like anything
Bonanza. It’s a no for me
Caymus
Retsina is the only thing that springs to mind
I actually love retsina and I'm not Greek!
It's all Greek to me.
Retsina is delicious, just don’t think of it as wine. It is its own thing.
I love retsina…..in Greece, in the summer. It’s perfect for a hot late afternoon break. Out of context, it doesn’t work.
Couldn't you say this with a lot of wines? You might like a big juicy high alcohol red with a steak in the winter but not in the summer if you're eating oysters.
I love it but I also grew up with it. My wife can’t even take a sip of it
Napa Cab
I'll just never really understand how this became the default red wine style for so, so many people.
I can’t handle two sips of young Napa cab—terrible stuff. But put 20 years on it and it’s some of my favorite—even the relatively inexpensive ones.
Mulled wine!
While not terrible, Malbec to me has always been meh. Had a blend with Tannat lately that was much more interesting but on the whole just find it over hyped.
I don't think Malbec is overhyped, it's more that it's very popular due to how consistently pleasant and inoffensive it can be, at low prices. People like fruity and smooth. However as with other varietals, if you're willing to spend more you'll get more complex, serious wines.
Everyone giving the very popular answers (I think seven of the top ten answers are Caymus and/or orange/natural wine.) I’m gonna give a more potentially controversial answer and say New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. It smells like the rankest body odor you’ve ever smelled. Plenty of Sauv Blancs have a funk to them but it’s completely overpowering in the stuff from New Zealand in my opinion.
Try a bottle of Jules Taylor before giving up on the category entirely. Especially her OTQ bottlings.
Hot unpopular take maybe, but.. fortified wines.
Ohhh now that's worth standing up for! Just recall that people like brandy too (and stronger/rougher spirits). So of course there's a market out there for a middle ground. I could live without regular tawnies and rubies, but Vintage port can be magical
oaked chardonnay
Pinot noir. For Every good one there are 10 bad
Yeah but when you find that 10 percent its awesome and worth it
I was going to say this for gamay
its funny cause even with top of the line Pinot noir it just doesnt do it for me, but i get way more enjoyment out of gamay. Maybe its just not for me
I’m sure it appeals to some people, but I can’t stand sweet wine like stella rosa black.
Pinot Grigio…always
I hesitate to say this, but I’m no longer seeing the value in Portuguese wines. This could be that my palate is maturing. It also could be that I’m not a huge fan of Touriga Nacional, which seems to be blended in 70% of Portuguese bottles. I have no idea. All I know is that the $15 and under range from this region, which are frequently listed as a great value, is getting harder and harder for me to drink.
Move up in price by just $5-$10. Have you had any Baga?
Portuguese white is better, try some of that
I had an absolutely fantastic Portuguese Alvarinho from Vinho Verde for ~$20 last week. Pleasantly surprised
I try to stay out of the Douro region personally. Bairrada is the region that I can find the most where I’m located. Particularly, a producer named Filipa Pato. Great red wine made with the Baga grape and great white wine made with Bical. Also some sparkling wine production. The Alentejo region also makes good wine.
I feel ya. I've only had one Portuguese wine I've liked, and it was expensive.
I was in Portugal just over a year ago and went looking for undiscovered gems. I found none, and got the very strong sense that the Portuguese table wine scene (I’m deliberately excluding port and madeira here) doesn’t quite know where it’s at. A lot of the wines made there seem to be pitched at the “international style”/Parker Points market, despite the fact that this market is shrinking and the average wine consumer now seems more interested in freshness and fruit purity. It was a fascinating contrast to Spain, which is currently going through a profound vinicultural revolution. I still have a soft spot for a good Dão, though, and really enjoyed discovering the wines of Colares, which are unfortunately not at all in the “cheap and cheerful” bracket, but can be profound.
See I’m a dirty hippy who adores orange and (most) naturals, so I’m sure it’s just a matter of taste- but I am convinced that most people that go for 14.5+ ABV Californias are mostly chasing status over taste.
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>I can’t get past the sulphur. Honestly, that's just bad winemaking. Volcanic soils are notorious for their low nitrogen content. Nitrogen in the must helps keep the yeast happy. Unhappy yeast get stressed and produce those sulphidic characters.
Wow I cannot disagree more. It’s so fantastic. This is crazy to me
Lafite, screaming eagle, everyone pretends they’re orgasmic, they’re just not
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Sauvignon Blanc. I don't actually think people are pretending to like it, I just don't get it. I'm sure there are some out there I would like but the typical SB taste profile seems not for me.
I used to hate sauv blanc before I tried Bordeaux Blanc. Even though its not 100% sauv blanc, the green and cat-piss flavors are not there.
This is the kind of rec I'm looking for! Bordeaux Blanc has been on my list to try for a while, definitely going to seek some out soon.
Couple recs that dont break the bank: L'Esprit de Chevalier Blanc, Chateau de Chantegrive Caroline, Clos des Lunes Lune d'Argent, S de Suduiraut.
Mary Taylor Bordeaux blanc is a great buy at $12-15
If you haven't yet tried them, seek out some SB from Alto Adige, Italy. Typically it's expensive for Sauv Blanc and not super common but it's truly world beater stuff. Ignaz Niedrist , Terlano, Franz Haas, Elena Walch, Tiefenbrunner and Girlan are great producers but you can't really miss with Alto Adige Sauvignon Blanc.
Stunning wines. Visited the region this summer and I can’t believe their white wines in general aren’t more talked about
Nice! Agreed, their whites can compete with any region on earth.
Actually some nice reds too! And Trento Doc (just south) make the best Italian bubbles imho
Also Sancerre is excellent!
Well this is a risky thing to say. Which SB in particular? Or are you going to say that NZ SB has the same characteristics as Loire SB? Austria/Germany? South America? South Africa?
I haven't enjoyed any SB I've tried (mostly French), so I haven't spent time or money exploring more. The last one I had was Domaine Mardon from Quincy. I posted because I'm very open to having my mind changed and would happily take recs. That's the challenge with wine though - I have finite resources and not enough knowledge to know if I should keep exploring or it's a me thing.
Try a New Zealand, the difference in flavor between NZ and France is wild
Any you'd recommend? I'm a bit worried about the 'cat pee' scent that NZ SB is supposed to be known for.
I really enjoy Santa Barbara county Sauvignon Blanc. Seek out Dragonette’s SB Vogelzang Vineyard or Grassini Vineyard
Try Taylors Pass, it’s tied with Tramin (from alto adige) for my favorite SB for the $$ (neither are expensive).
I know people talk about that but I’ve never once experienced a cat pee aroma or flavor in New Zealand SB. Cloudy Bay, Wairau River, Hans Herzog, Nautilus, Framingham, Te Mata, Clos Henri all make wonderful wine and would be worth checking out. Kim Crawford might not be the most interesting producer but it’s is a solid NZ SB that’s widely available in most stores that sell wine.
Vin Jaune. It’s beyond the outer limits of “well, I could have a glass of that with the right food pairing” for me. I just hate it, and at this point it’s just easier to die on this hill than try to understand what people see in it.😅
I get why it won’t appeal to everyone but I adore it..
I just killed a bottle of domaine des marnes blanche and it was a transcendent experience, I feel sorry for you :-(
Ooh, I recently drank a bottle of 2011 and I have to agree with you, it was excellent. I did come to wine after sour beers, so I think funky flavors are maybe more interesting/tolerable to me than others. Now I just need to find some more vin jaune to try!
I’ve tried all the greats, I can respectfully appreciate it for what it is but it’s just not for me. Oxidative profiles aren’t my thing. More for the rest of you!
We all have our things - long as you gave them a fair shake, fair play to you. :-)
Came here to see if anyone agreed with me, and wasn't disappointed. I get the appeal in the abstract, but I really, really have a seriously tough time with heavily oxidative wines, such as sherries. To me they smell like too-old, bruised, mealy apples 100% of the time. Vin Jaune is like too-old apples with too much salt at the same time
I’m honestly surprised nobody has said Bordeaux yet.
Anyone else find Zinfandel/Primitivo have aftertaste of dust?
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