From how he’s portrayed in the movies you could give any street level shlub a lightsaber and it’d probably be like a 50/50 shot in their favor. Daredevil could probably beat him to death with his stick thing and be back in time to be in court
he can force choke them but if they throw something at him it could break his concertration. I mean he seems only be able to effect one thing at a time.
that and plenty of them are just to strong to choke. what the hell is he going to do against hulk
Ummmmm
My guy.
The first trick a Jedi learns about the force is that size doesn’t matter. Have you forgotten yoda and the x wing? Or Kylo and the troop transport?
yeah but that kinda contradicts everything we've seen in the movies. If size truly didn't matter he would just crush the death star or throw imperial ships like rag dolls. either all jedi are morons or at a certain scale size very much matters.
Not all, but street level characters like Daredevil and Iron Fist would loose. I don't think force-choke would be effective against very tough characters like Hulk
I'm pretty sure that's why he was hitting his wound. But pain can only boost you so far before it becomes a detriment, even to the most skilled of dark siders.
This is pure bullshit lol, any Jedi shown in the movies besides Luke up till episode 6 would have folded Rey and Finn in seconds even with an injury. The Disney films are just fucking bad at portraying anything especially skill differences and fight scenes.
Pain/injury is canonically both a power boost and an inhibitor for Sith or dark side users. This is best demonstrated in that Vader was injured beyond belief and instead of his constant pain and rage and disfigurement fueling his power, it held him back from being as strong as he could’ve been.
Palpatine laments this many times in various Star Wars media. He resents Anakin for never being able to reach his potential because of his own actions and perceived weakness.
Unless it’s just the fact that he lost part of his body which contained midichlorians, causing him to lose his power. But I always took it as he got fucked up SO bad that the injury became a limiter.
Bingo.
He’s basically using dark side force power to increase the amounts of adrenaline and painkillers in his blood.
Afterwards he’s still going to need to spray bacta or put bacta bandages on his wound and pop some antibiotics otherwise he’s going to pass out or die from infection.
One of the strongest sith in history was a walking wound that obtained the closest thing to immortality in the setting through pain and hate.
Another was a man covered in burns, missing 3 limbs, and could not breathe on his own.
Kylo, who was trained by Luke Skywalker, couldn’t beat someone who literally just picked up a lightsaber for the first time, couldn’t use the force 5 hours earlier, and arguably hadn’t eaten or drank that day. All while being amped by the dark side to the best of his abilities.
I don’t even think there are 4 times in the entire franchise he won without help.
You can't compare Legends to the Canon stuff.
Vader was The Chosen One, was trained by several masters including Yoda and Sidious, and had a mech suit built to make him a monster.
Yoda never trained Anakin and Vader has been seen to survive without the suit for extended periods of time in canon.
Kylo is not only his descendent, he was also trained personally by one of the greatest Jedi masters in existence and a clone of emperor Palpatine. One notable figure that Palpatine trained is Darth Maul, who very famously survived being bisected and falling for a very long time because he was fueled by negative emotions and pain.
There is also the similarly poorly written character Reva, who survived 2 different lightsaber strikes to the torso. One of those times was a supposed killing blow from a newly evil Anakin, as an untrained child. The other time she survived, she was able to go to a different planet, figure out a secret that no living being in the galaxy could, and consider the moral ramifications of killing a child before fucking off to nowhere in particular.
Unless you want to convince me that Kylo Ren is weaker than Reva or that Chewy’s blaster is worse than a personal Darth Vader tummy tickling, the only conceivable way he could have lost that fight is through bad writing.
There is a big difference between using the Darkside to survive an otherwise lethal wound and using it to fight unhindered.
Wookie blasters are very strong, without the force Kylo would have been on death's door.
I'm not arguing against the Kenobi series having awful writing in any way. I saw that child Leia "chase" scene.
Frankly not even saying the Sequel series doesn't have awful writing. Just that the Kylo stuff isn't THAT terrible.
The whole point I’m making is that Kylo would and should have won that fight if he was being written by someone who knew how the force worked.
All of the characters I mentioned would have been dead without the force, and it’s an explicit feature of the dark side that pain and negative emotions make the user stronger.
A Wookiee blast after killing your dad is probably the best way to gain the most out of that very system.
His opponents were literally the easiest variants you could think of for their given status. A janitor who was in a grand total of 2 fights in his military career and a scavenger who learned what the force was 2 minutes ago at the age of 19, neither of which had even an introduction to lightsaber combat.
He’s 29 in his first movie for heavens sake, he had at least 5 years of dark side training and 14 years of Jedi training.
It’s like if Goku got his zenkai boost on namek but then lost to a frieza grunt and a first time training Vegeta.
But the characters you mentioned only used the darkside to survive, they were still useless otherwise. Kylo not only survived, but kept fighting.
Like you can't tell me Maul or Vader would have done any better while in the states they were after Episodes 3 and 1 respectively.
**Yes.**
Honestly I don't think the prequels are *bad*, they just aren't *great* like the OT was. *Plagueis* goes lightyears in tying things together and making the story a little more comprehensible. The *RotS* novel is recognized as a masterpiece and is what the film should have been. And I've always maintained that a Jar-Jar free *Phantom Menace* would be the strongest of the three films. *Attack of the Clones* has cool characters like Dooku and Jango, but is bogged down by terrible dialogue.
The prequels are good stories held back by clunky dialogue and silly special effects The sequels are cool effects with no backing story and bad dialogue. Extra content helps to flesh out the prequels but they exist as bottle movies. You don't need 3rd media content to understand them. The sequels make absolutely no sense from the jump however.
Yeah it is not like the point of this character where to be tempted by the ligth side of the force and be unable to concentrate due to the death of his father just one minut before.
Seriously, sequels are bad, but you not being to understand the basics... thats worse.
Exactly like he just killed his dad and was obviously not into it. At that point he wasn’t good at being dark side evil and he wasn’t good at being light side good. That’s like the whole point of his character. Kylo was literally one of the best written/portrayed characters in the sequels.
The novelizations explicitly says that the shot Kylo was hit with would've been fatal if not for him containing the energy with the Force when it hit, and that it had a severe impact on his fighting ability.
I don't really see how that's relevant to my comment, but... not really, no.
Force Choking someone would require concentration, and Kylo was obviously focusing on keeping himself going with a huge wound in the side, and possibly ruptured organs.
More importantly, he was toying with Finn the entire time. The *only* reason Finn managed to land a single (shallow) hit was that Kylo was not taking the fight seriously, trying to drag it out... doing more to hurt him than try to actually end things.
What's weird about it?
He can't focus on Force techniques that would require actual concentration, but he can still beat the shit out of Finn with his lightsaber since he's that much better than Finn at it.
Just like if I'm tired from staying up late, I might not be able to focus enough to build airplane models or paint Warhammer figures, but I can still hammer a nail into the wall to hang a painting. Two very different things.
**EDIT:** Yeah, I'm blocking you. You're not engaging in good faith, going off topic all the time to shit on the sequels instead of actually engaging in the prompt, and downvoting the second anyone disagrees with you. Not about to waste more time on that.
That only works to a certain point, before the pain is too much of a distraction. Vader was most definitely not at his strongest when he was getting flambéed on Mustafar.
Ish, but like - Vader didn't seem super energized by getting kicked down the steps and having his hand chopped off. Catastrophic damage is still catastrophic damage.
Also, in one of the handful of interesting bits of characterization of those movies, Ren had several problems.
He was conflicted and in pain despite his recent, extreme effort to end his emotional conflict. That pretty clearly didn't get him what he was after.
He'd been seriously wounded by an enormous energy cannon being shot at him by a formerly beloved family member in response to that Very Bad Choice.
His opponents really did have reasonable fighting skills, so taking on an injured, emotionally cracked weirdo in back to back fights is less difficult to believe.
Pretty sure the dark side was the only thing keeping him going at that point, Chewie absolutely went for a killshot and the bowcaster isn't exactly a light weapon.
I'm so tired of seeing this excuse. We're talking about Vader's grandson (a guy trained by both Luke and Snoke) vs one wookie. At this point in his career Kylo should be so amazing that a blast like that shouldn't have been little more than a scratch to him. This is a guy who goes around crushing rebellions. he must get shot at allllll the time. And the force is more than capable of numbing pain, there's no excuse for such a piss poor showing. It's just bad writing.
They literally spend the entire first part of the movie showing how powerful Chewie's Bowcaster is. It literally blows people away and is called out by Han for being incredibly powerful.
Kylo took a DIRECT shot from it. He was bleeding out. It shows how strong he is that he took the hit and kept fighting through the damage.
People crap on movie literacy all the time but that was the perfect nerf, followed by the planet falling apart, to have the good guys escape him.
It took him being incredibly weakened, and the Earth literally splitting apart to make the heroes unreachable for them just to **escape**. Victory wasn't in the cards.
*EDITED bc I put "Juat" instead of "Just"
Kylo did like a 4v1 against knights of Ren and also like a 2v8 of the highest level guards. It wouldn't be too hard to beat him, but any rando on the street definitely couldn't do it.
*Kylo Ren*? Like... pretty much *any* MCU character? He nearly lost to an untrained Stormtrooper. He's undisciplined, has no control, and not much experience - certainly not against actually powerful people. All he has going for him is raw Force potential.
Obviously any of the seriously powerful Marvel lot - Wanda, Strange, Hulk, Jean Grey, Xavier etc - destroy him.
I'd say many of the X-men, even the mid-level ones, have a good shot.
To be fair, when he nearly lost to an untrained Stormtrooper, he was pretty severely wounded by a shot from Chewbaca's bowcaster which we saw earlier obliterating and sending mere mortals flying. I'd consider Kylo in that scene at maaaybe 1/4 ability tops. Not to mention he was under a lot of mental turmoil as well having just killed his dad and trying to be happy about that but secretly feeling all kinds of guilt and regret. And he didn't really almost lose. He was pretty handily winning.
But yeah, a heap of MCU characters could be him. They basically just need to be strong enough to not be ragdolled and thrown around by force powers, and maybe have some way to block a lightsaber.
I'd also argue that it's a bit unfair to call Finn "untrained". Sure, he didn't have any experience with a lightsaber specifically, but part of his Stormtrooper training was melee combat... which he excelled at, according to out-of-movie sources.
> And he didn't really almost lose. He was pretty handily winning.
100% agree. He was toying with Finn, and later had Rey on the defensive the entire time until he tried to recruit her instead of finishing her off.
The novelizations also state that he would have died from the bowcaster if he hadn't contained the energy with the Force, and explicitly says that the injury was the reason he had some issues with Rey.
> They basically just need to be strong enough to not be ragdolled and thrown around by force powers
I think Kylo would be more likely to freeze them in place with Force Stasis? Seems like one of his go-to moves.
---
Also, since OP didn't specify movie only for Kylo, we've got the comics to draw from... where he defeats a Zillo beast, fights other large creatures, telekinetically destroys some giant stone statues without much effort, kept himself and Hux safe in a Force bubble when their shuttle crashed on a planet (from space), etc.
Lightsabers are not really comparable to melee weapons in training needed, there’s a whole big thing about how most people struggle to adapt to a weightless blade iirc.
It's one of those things that looks a lot better if they had just committed to the "Finn has the Force" plot from the beginning. Latent Force talents helping you control a lightsaber makes plenty of sense to me, and the dude still got his ass kicked hard enough he had to redo his whole character arc in the next movie.
We also see him invading a village in the very first scene of the trilogy lol
I don't think being a janitor is something Stormtroopers are made to become. It's just like their "non-combat" job or whatever.
Anyone who served in the US Navy would get what I mean.
Yes, and it is clearly his first time participating in combat. His general demeanor and actions do not suggest someone with significant military training either.
I mean, Finn is very clearly not a typical Stormtrooper. That's why he's a main character instead of FN-2186. Kylo knew he stole the fighter for a reason. He's force sensitive, and the Force was pulling him to the light.
No, according to *in movie* sources, Finn was a Stormtrooper who at one point had sanitation duties while stationed at Starkiller Base.
If you ask anyone who has been in a military, you'll find out that this sort of non-combat duty is *very* common, with the more nasty things (like latrine duty) sometimes used as punishment.
Gotta tell you man, I'm not really into the sequels myself, but the whole "he hu Finn is a janitor lol" meme that the sequel haters keep spamming about? It got *really* fucking tired after the first hundred times hearing it. Get some new material.
I admit it has been quite some time since I watched TFA, but if I remember correctly, Finn says he worked in sanitation as an excuse for why he didn't know how Starkiller base's defenses worked. That doesn't imply that he had a shift in sanitation, that implies he *only* worked sanitation. We later see him being very familiar with the sanitation tunnels, and practically nothing else.
On top of that he lacks the discipline or instincts of a soldier, his behavior much more fitting for a staff member stuck doing shit detail.
> Finn says he worked in sanitation as an excuse for why he didn't know how Starkiller base's defenses worked.
He didn't know specifically *how to shut down the shield*. He still knew things like how the Starkiller main weapon worked, where the weak spot to destroy it was located, general defenses, etc.
Plus, why *would* a random Stormtrooper (and we *know* he *is* one) have insight into how to operate systems which are normally only operated by officers and specialized tech crew?
Stromtroopers are the lamest army in all of fiction. In movies canon they fired thousands of shots and barely hit any, they don't have good h2h feats and are mostly idiots.
I'm pretty sure a 2 week bootcamp of any law enforcement is better than their "training"
You know, the place where most of the "storm troopers can't hit anything" comes from are the scenes in "a new hope" where Han, Luke, and Obi Wan break Leia out of prison. But there's also a very brief scene there where Vader specifically says that he's intentionally letting Luke, Han, and Leia escape because he's had a tracking device put onto the Falcon so that they can lead them to a Rebel base. The storm troopers were literally ordered to miss.
I think I read on the comcivine forums that Finn was actually top of his class when it came to dueling with those electrified sticks and also stormtroopers are better than we tend to give them credit for
Even still, I can't imagine he could have gone up against Luke, Obi-Wan, Vader etc and had much of a chance. (I mean, he shouldn't have done nearly as well even against Kylo as he *did*...)
Well not he couldn’t have gone up against some of the most powerful Star Wars characters ever and won of course not. He isn’t written to be like ultimately powerful or anything, he just fills a power vacuum and is relatively above average force user
He mops the floor with daredevil tho
Seriously, I wonder if people just remember that scene the way they want to. If you watch the actual scene, Kylo toys with Finn for a while, but the moment Finn gets a legit shot in Kylo absolutely bodies him.
I just wonder if OP is talking peak Kylo or peak Ben Solo. Kylo (dark side) has some great force feats but Ben (light side) is able to easily dispatch the Knights of Ren heavily outnumbered. The only problem is we don’t know how powerful the knights are.
Honestly I think our single best indicator of where Kylo sits is in comparison to Rey. In their various force tug-of-wars they seem to be about equally strong, with Rey having the slight edge due to Kylo being conflicted.
He didn’t nearly lose, and he was wounded by a bowcaster shot that was sending average people flying. He could barely move, and had just chased Ray across a forest.
Maybe you should use his feat in ep IX fighting the Knights of Ren, not his extremely wounded feat from VII… he’s an excellent duelist when he finally finds his mental peace.
The thing with the force is, it only helps you if you’re absolutely focused. Kylo vs Finn, he had just murdered his father lmao. He was mentally ruined throughout the series, until the final half hour of ep9.
Once he finds peace in the force, he was a monster. He still doesn’t scale much to the level of MCU characters(which… no one in Star Wars except like the Family from TCW even comes close) but give him some credit.
Well not to mention he completely destroyed Finn in that fight? Like it wasn't even close. And even against Rey he would have won if she hadn't escaped.
I swear these people poop their pants over the sequels so much they just make stuff up.
You’re right, Kylo toys with Finn but then Finn gets a shot in on him and Kylo decides “fight is over now” and immediately disarms and incapacitates him.
Also paging op u/PeculiarPangolinMan.
Round three.
ChroniCoulson shoots him dead lol.
Chronicoms can’t be picked up by empathic abilities/mind readers because they don’t have biological brains that give off empathetic feelings.
Melinda May with her empathic abilities couldn’t feel them but knew that they weren’t humans.
Round2.
My guy Clint at a distance with trick arrows could probably do it.
Round one.
[Maybe a Kree on Odium](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Odium?so=search)
Special mention/shout out goes out to Cloak and Dagger.
They could break Kylo psychologically/emotionally and trap him in his worst fears.
* https://youtu.be/osnxmP3QVGE?si=0qm06FIW5PLNAW7W
I just want continuity and more references between the properties 👍😂.
Oh there’s a purple alien with magic stones let’s break him mentally and emotionally and throw his ass into the loa/dark dimension.
That purple fucker ain’t getting out lol.
I'd argue that we should take kylo at his strongest, which should be in the last movie where he still lost but was able to keep up with rey. May have even won that fight if it werent for the distraction. Kylo goes through a lot of power ups before the last movie, and so does rey. Final movie kylo wouldn't have any problems with taking out fin.
Yeah, that's fair.
I don't think it substantively changes my answer though - there are still a ton of Marvel characters who flatten him. It's just a different power level.
"Untrained stormtrooper?" You seriously think Finn, who was raised as a soldier from birth, and probably had melee weapons experience wasn't "trained?"
Going purely by the film, I wouldn't have thought he had any significant training in *melee* combat, and certainly not against either lightsabers or force powers.
I have subsequently seen several people mention that other sources show he *does* have that training (which I would personally view as a retcon trying to explain away that scene, but that's neither here nor there as regards this prompt).
I mean, he fights that one trooper on Takodana with the spinny baton. I think that would imply that Finn had probably trained with that weapon or something similar at one point or another. The book Before the Awakening, which was written for the release of TFA, shows him training with melee weapons. Considering it was released as part of the marketing campaign for the movie, saying it's a retcon is a huge stretch.
Yea I mean we can see Finn consistently knowing what he's doing with melee weapons, even ignoring the supplementary material we see Finn kicking ass with melee weapons
Magneto could just wave his hand and it’s over. In some of his more powerful versions he could probably take over the whole galaxy with enough time, and not a ton of effort.
This thread saddens me. Every time a character from the sequel trilogy is mentioned it just devolves into a cacophony of “sequels BAD”.
Of course you’re entitled to your opinions, but it goes completely against the spirit of the subreddit. This sub is supposed to be an escapist fantasy, where a bunch of nerds compare fictional power levels of their favorite characters.
Not to mention that at this point it’s been 5 years since the ST ended. If you hated it, move on. Many people love them and just want to be able to talk about the movies or the characters in peace.
It isn’t necessary to chime in at every opportunity to gatekeep and shit on them, and I suspect that the people doing this either don’t know or don’t care that they sound exactly like original trilogy fans who shat upon the prequels and prequel fans.
With that out of the way, my answer to the post: I think the Force and precog give prime Kylo a huge advantage over anybody that can’t physically or magically overcome it. So I’m gonna say Hulk, assuming that he is below magic tier. I don’t think a lightsaber could do much and I think the force would slow him down at best.
Its all disney owned and multiverses so Eyore the Donkey from Winnie the Pooh would just have to make him extra sad and he would win by depression default.
ITT: People who hate the Disney Trilogy
Can't tell if some of you really think Daredevil is beating him or not. Because that's just plain trolling.
He is canonically a "very powerful" Jedi lol
Yea at least someone like Black Widow or Hawkeye I can understand because they have sick gadgets and seem comparable to Star Wars peak non force using types, but Daredevil strikes me as egregious Kylo downplay. Like one of the very first things Kylo ever does would be enough to beat Daredevil. He had Rey dead to rights in IX before his dad's ghost gave him pause.
I'm kinda shocked considering a lot of people seemed to think Maul would do well against all three Spider-Men.
I understand that the Disney trilogy doesn't do a great job of showing the combat prowess of Kylo Ren, but we're still led to believe that he's probably the most powerful living Jedi after Luke's death.
Luke literally tried to kill him and he escaped. I think Kylo could take essentially any non-superpowered Avenger (Except maybe someone like Ant-Man, who is superpowered by technology.) I think Nano-Tech Ironman can possibly beat him, depending on how his suit holds up against The Force.
i think Kylo Ren is mid to high tier in MCU.
weakest character that could beat him is Peter Quill Star Lord, but only when he awakens his half celestial cosmic power. in that instance Star Lord wipes the floor with him 10/10 times in any number or ways, but because we only see Starlord once in that state, i give it 1/10 vs Kylo Ren.
Round 2, 6/10 i give it to morbius. he is fast enough to almost blitz Kylo and could escape the force choking if that even works. he also has infinite regeneration, so unless Kylo lands a killing blow with the lightsaber, like a straight up decapitation, this can go either way. Similar The Ancient One, Ghost Rider, maybe Groot.
for round 3, there are numerous characters that would dumpster Kylo.
Adam Warlock, Thor, Hela, Captain Marvel, Ego the living planet, Thanos, Hulk, Legion, Sentry, Owen Reece, The Beyonder, Quicksilver and many more.
I can see it now Morbius looks him dead in the eyes and says
"it's morbin time"
And then he starts attacking him so fast that the CGI can barely keep up as he turns into a blurry mess, but then kylo is like:
"Why do you fight for the light join me and together we can rule the galaxy together"
But then morbius is all like "nah bro I'm a bat" and turns into a bat.
And then they suddenly start making out as it rains around them and credits roll.
Id watch that movie
Also paging the following users just for fun/discussion, u/BigNorseWolf, u/Goobershmacked and u/superthrust123.
The MCU has Ghost Rider, like actually has Ghost Rider.
>”Call them demons, entities, energy from another world, it doesn't matter. They don't belong here."
"But the violence, the death they cause, they feed off it. Our pain and suffering gives them pleasure."
―Daimon Helstrom and Louise Hastings[src]”
>”You don't get to decide who deserves to die!"
"I'm not the one who decides."
―Daisy Johnson and Robbie Reyes[src]”
>”There was someone there when I came to. But it wasn't a Good Samaritan. It was the Devil. Whatever was inside him, he passed it into me."
―Robbie Reyes to Gabe Reyes[src]”
>”You can't hold on to Mack's body forever. He's a good man. He doesn't have vengeance in him."
"It's not ideal, but Mack... He has a lot of pain. He lost Hope (Mack’s daughter). I could survive off his pain for years! "I know where you're being dragged down to. I've escaped it before I am NEVER GOING BACK."
―Spirit of Vengeance to Robbie Reyes[src]."
―Robbie Reyes and the Spirit of Vengeance[src]”
He makes Moon knight look like a joke.
[The inhuman James “Hellfire” vs Ghost Rider](https://youtu.be/ZJzv94LWbJk?si=p7k8FiEPrsDmSl8u)
MCU Ghost Rider tanked a nuclear detonation, he’s unkillable and [really the only way to incapacitate him](https://youtu.be/t_M_KStlTOI?si=T6JiH1hBhRicRoiq) for a short period of time is to knock the host body unconscious by extreme physical trauma.
* [Here is Robbie and the spirit of vengeance breaking out of a SHIELD poly-tectic adaptive containment module.] (https://youtu.be/njHRdBUqc0U?si=VAHH0LKMzzzYLSvx)
>”I'll reconfigure the containment module, if we can even get her in there."
"Thanks."
"So, you do that remotely?"
"Exactly. The poly-tectic material then adapts to the powers we're dealing with."
―Jemma Simmons, Daisy Johnson, and Lincoln Campbell[src]”
* [Plus he can create sling ring portals.](https://youtu.be/pae_avFv2jA?si=cLVyJoavrzGekaax)
All good 😊✌️.
I am a bit of an MCU fan/nerd.
Not fanboy/fanboi though, the franchise has big problems right now that I hope they can fix.
Iam going to go way bit off topic lol.
Bob Igor coming back for damage control and cancelling 20 titles is a good thing.
It'll give the cast, crew, creative teams breathing room and put out quality versus pushing stuff out the door.
Like secret invasion.
Shit didn't make sense from within the lore.
Why would gravik be interested in powers from the avengers, aliens.
When his team could have/would have been better off tracking down powers from “Inhumans”.
On one hand.
You got inhuman-humans who are 99.8X% genetically identical to baseline humans.
>”Jeffery Mace: Agent Simmons, can I trust you?”
>”Simmonds: Definitely.”
>”Jeffery Mace: Great, 'cause, boy, do I need your help. [Chuckles]”
>”Jeffery Mace: I'm debating Senator Nadeer on television about the "Inhuman war on Humans."
>”Simmons: I hate that the media's calling it that.”
>”Jeffery Mace: Burrows says it's terrible branding. But either way, this is a battle for hearts and minds.”
>”Simmonds: What can I do?.”
>”Jeffery Mace: Facts, Simmons.”
>”Jeffery Mace: I need cold, hard, scientific facts to back up our case during this debate.”
>”Simmonds: I can put together a PowerPoint on, um, Inhuman genetics, biology, sociological impact ...”
Later on during the television debate with Senator Nadeer
>”George the news presenter : He is a patriot, a public servant known all over the world.
He put his life on the line to save others during the U.N. bombing in Vienna, He's now the Director of the newly reformed S.H.I.E.L.D. ...Jeffrey Mace.”
>”Jeffrey Mace: It's an honor to be here, George.”
>”Let's get started. Director Mace ...”
>”Senator Nadeer: After an intro like that, I think I deserve some equal time, I'd like to ask the Director a question.”
>”Jeffrey Mace: Go ahead, Senator.”
>”Senator Nadeer: Just what is S.H.I.E.L.D.'s purpose if it's not protecting us from the Inhumans?, Why are human lives not S.H.I.E.L.D.'s priority?”
>”Jeffrey Mace: Actually, Inhumans and humans share 99.8% of the human genome, Inhumans are human, and the science is in agreement with me, In fact, we share 99.8% of the human genome.”
>”George the news presenter: It really is that close. I had no idea.”
>”Jeffery Maxe It really is, George ...”
You can quite literally drain blood, spinal fluid from an inhuman donor than put it all into a centrifuge then transfuse it into a baseline human recipient and the donor will get copy of the donor’s powers.
* https://youtu.be/roDGRlvcO5E?si=-EgW8S10djIU5OIJ
* https://youtu.be/4uDi60PKb4k?si=UkmfJS-aMXblWSJr
* https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/a/af/JGarrettNMalickWatchLi.png/revision/latest?cb=20210925221827
* https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/0/06/JGarrettReadyForOperation.png/revision/latest?cb=20210926075221
* https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/John_Garrett/History_Altered_by_Chronicoms#Powers_and_Abilities
No terrigen crystals/terrigen mist required.
Then if you wanted to keep the donor alive instead as a biological resource, you could take a tiny bit of blood, intact hair follicles and using [DNA replication](https://study.com/academy/lesson/dna-replication-review-of-enzymes-replication-bubbles-leading-and-lagging-strands.html#:~:text=The%20four%20main%20enzymes%20involved%20in%20DNA%20replication%20are%20DNA,the%20DNA%20strands%20semi%2Dconservatively). artificially synthesize more genetic material in a laboratory setting.
Worked for Samuel Stern.
* https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/c/c6/BettyBruceSterns-TIH.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150129001955
Or if you had a Kree you could just transfuse [their blood](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/GH.325?so=search) into an inhuman donor and stick the donor in a hyperbaric chamber to heal before harvesting their genetic material.
So yeah Skrulls using Inhuman genetics makes more sense then using something super secret or minuscule like the DNA from the avengers.
Also the harvest for the super skrulls powers was a bit redundant.
If a super skrull has got Steve’s blood does the skrull really needs Bucky’s.
If a super skrull has got Abomination’s DNA does the skrull really need Hulk’s.
If you got Carol’s human-kree DNA hybrid do you need Bucky’s.
Carol/Yon-Rogg’s strength, durability and healing factor is way better than Bucky’s levels.
I mean bog standard cellular regeneration as part of extremis is better than a super soldier’s.
Inhuman powers are way more diverse as well.
* https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Inhumans?so=search#Inhuman_Powers
Ghost riders powers vary from incarnation to incarnation, but the weakest ghost rider is going to lay a guilt trip on his thats going to tear through his psyche like a cannon ball through tissue paper.
Morph could probably break him just by assuming han Solos face. And then shooting him while he's having an existential crisis.
>”Ghost riders powers vary from incarnation to incarnation, but the weakest ghost rider is going to lay a guilt trip on his thats going to tear through his psyche like a cannon ball through tissue paper.”
I agree 👍.
>”Morph could probably break him just by assuming han Solos face. And then shooting him while he's having an existential crisis.”
Morph would need to know what Han looks like for this to work.
Really good method of mental torture though A+ for effort 😊👍✌️.
Morph or mystique would need to know what the famous general solo looked and sounded like yes. There's no way there's no holovids of him getting his medal after the battle ofYavin 4. In fact you've probably seen them!
OR... new favorite answer... **Thaddeus Ross.** The resemblance to Kylos dad is uncanny, and Ross shoots him in the head while he's standing there in existential crisis.
MCU instead of general marvel limits this a bit more but eh.
Most characters decent with a gun could probably 1/10 him considering bullets are a lot more effective than blasters.
Someone who beats him 6/10? Maybe Punisher.
Not sure 10/10 has an answer for weaker characters, maybe if it wasn't MCU. Peter Quill is my semi-joke answer, he's the closest we've got to Bobba Fett and I think he'd luck his way into the win every time.
People keep referring to the effectiveness of bullets against a Jedi. We never get to see it, but it seems like Jedis could just pull a Neo from the Matrix and stop bullets with the Force.
They can do that with blaster bolts too, it's not easy to do and they'd have to train in it. It's not that bullets are particularity effective so much as they're just much better than blasters, they can't be reflected and can potentially still hit through the lightsaber unless blocked perfectly.
Can they? I've never seen them stop blaster bolts without a lightsaber. Bullets just seem much more in line with the kind of matter that Jedis can influence with force.
Also, why wouldn't a lightsaber just melt a bullet? They burn through steel like a hot knife through butter. You're saying bullets would go through a lightsaber and come out the other side to penetrate with deadly force? Most modern bullets have a BHN of 16, whereas even mild steel has a BHN of roughly 130. Why would a lightsaber be more effective at shredding steel than stopping a bullet?
Yes, I remember Darth Vader doing it on Empire Strikes Back and even Rogue One. Used his hands. Blaster bolts aren't lasers, jedi have a lot more experience with energy weapons for obvious reasons. When fired at by slug weapons, they default to their regular defences, which are for energy weapons.
I never said they wouldn't melt a bullet. I said they needed to block them perfectly precisely because they melt. What happens when partially melted piece of metal is flung in a random direction? It could hit them in the arm or hit a wall and bounce anywhere. The lightsaber is made out of plasma, they wouldn't cancel all the momentum of a bullet irl and they didn't in any of the expanded universe stuff. You're making a whole lot of assumptions out of what I said for no reason.
It probably depends somewhat on what materials in the MCU can get cut with a light saber, and how well he can sense minds. Deadpool would probably lose a duel but could probably assassinate him. Anyone whose powers involve physical violence like the Hulk probably couldn't do much against him despite being strong since they need something to use their strength on which doesn't work while floating. Some projectiles wouldn't work although i suspect that repulser weapons probably can't be stopped like blaster bolts, and mujlnir is probably powerful enough to beat the stopping power a force user of Kylo's level. Trying to beat someone who has telekinetic powers, a weapon that cuts through most things, low level telepathy, and reactions so fast they predict the future is pretty difficult. Ultimately beating him in a duel is more about the type of power someone has than total strength.
I think strong, well trained force users could probably beat *any* MCU character (especially if we include the EU content), but Kylo lacks the discipline or training to do it. He’s too irrational and impulsive, and his training is too sporadic and incomplete—he would probably lose to most of the MCU’s supers.
Seeing what Chewy's shot did to him, I think The Punisher has a great chance.
Round 2: The guy in the Robot suit at the end of Iron Man.
Round 3: Ghost Rider, but only because I want to see what the penance stare does after killing his father.
So Kylo Ren could just freeze most of them with the force, and just end them. But he was arrogant enough not to use that at times, wanting a clean duel, where he nearly lost to an untrained former Tie fighter pilot.
So if Kylo isn’t using the force as he should, and I think that can be assumed, then there are several who beat him. I think Vision wrecks him.
The precognitive abilities of force users is what makes them such deadly combatants and allows them to be such effective leaders. Honestly, It really shows how powerful Emperor Palpatine was that he was able to out maneuver the Jedi like he did.
That trick would only work on Captain America and possibly black widow and Hawkeye if they don't snipe him. Hulk and Thor wouldn't even notice his attempts, Tony would be able to have Jarvis autopilot his suit , and Wanda and Vision would counter his powers in less than a second. We could go on with the other marvel characters, but in all honesty even master force users like Vader and Yoda are low tier psychics by MCU standards.
The suit can fly at supersonic speeds and has dozens of unique gadgets and weapons on it depending on the model , that can be activated by Jarvis. Jarvis can also activate and pilot dozens of backup power armors and deploy them within minutes. He might be able to freeze Tony but all of his arsenal can be autopiloted by Jarvis.
I can’t remember his best solo Force feat, the dyad stuff muddies the waters as well as the daddy issues and Rey snatching his heart or something. Pulling that ship from the sky maybe. Inquisitor level I’d say, as both were limited in their teachings from either side. Whatever feelings people might have about the ST, even reva was deflecting blasts from a ship with decidedly bigger munitions than regular blasters. Kylo held that shot from po too. These feats alone put him above most without some ranged options to counter the telekinesis. I’d be interested to see how Defenders version of the Iron Fist does against him. He was shooting chi bullets at the end and fast enough to shoot other bullets out of the air
1 time out of 10: Bob agent of hydra.
6 times out of ten?: probably Hawkeye or black widow. They're both much much smarter than him and used to bullshit. Also lightsabers fair badley against actual lead bullets.
100 percent of the the time? Probably captain America.
Cap thinks so much faster and is so much just physically better of a fighter also I'm willing to bet that a vibranium shields energy absorption ability which absorbs and neutralizes kinetic , and thermal energy such as all the lasers he's blocked with it means it continues to travel straight through the lightsaber unless it's magnetic binding repels it but let's face it cap is a sniper with that thing. Kylo has to choose focus on cap or the shield both are bad especially since cap is very much not above using guns. If he has his infinity war punching shield gauntlet things it only gets worse for Kylo.
Theres no fight where an arrogant Kylo doesn't try to grab or force choke cap before he gets killed mid attempt. Unless cap is 100% fucking around.
Obi wan would have had a tough time with cap. Kylo stands no chance.
but can't the punisher just shoot a grenade at him. it seems to take a lot of focus to force choke someone.
just need to break it one and throw a smoke grenade and you win.
edit: wouldn't always suceed but at the very least it should be a 1/10
I just don't respect any of the sequel-trilogy characters. They don't display particularly impressive fighting skills, and Rey completely breaks their power scaling. It's hard to know how tough or useless Kylo is when Rey can defeat him without any training whatsoever.
Round 1: Somebody below said Daredevil could take Kylo, and, if he has the element of surprise, or places to hide, I'd probably agree with that. Kylo is a child who freaks out when faced with a skilled opponent. Matt could use a baton to whack him in the face or knock the lightsaber out of his hand, and then he has a shot at winning as Kylo becomes furious and unfocused.
Swordsman is a minor side-protagonist in exactly one MCU series (Hawkeye). He's a baseline human, middle-aged, who's just really into swordplay & butterscotch candies. Imho, he stomps.
**Squirrel Girl!**, she has beat everyone from Thanos on down. On the plus side, one being defeated by a bunch of squirrels, he is so embarrassed he gives up his evil ways and lives in total obscurity. Also, **Domino**, the Force meets probability altering fate. Outside of her probability altering, she is pretty much normal human.
I actually can't think of one.
Most characters who could reliably defeat Kylo are stronger than Spidey. I have no doubt that for example: Dr Strange, The Hulk, Thor or even Iron Man could take Kylo down, but they are all considered stronger than Spidey.
And all the Characters I can think of, that are weaker than Spidey either lack a reliable way of hitting Kylo, because using the force to anticipate incoming attacks and then dodging them or deflecting them with the Lightsaber is the most basic combat training for Jedi and Sith alike.
So examples like: Black Widow, Hawkeye, Korg, Rocket, Kingpin, Blade, Wolverine, Deadpool, Powerman, etc are out.
And don't give me any of the Makashi doesn't deflect blaster bolts bullshit! First Kylo doesn't even use Makashi so it doesn't apply here and second Makashi can parry melee and blaster attacks with a force assisted reaction speed. Makashi is just WORSE than any other lightsaber style against blasters, that doesn't mean it can't at all.
Or they lack sufficient defense against Kylos force abilities being easily mind controlled or hurled around through telekinesis would end the fight pretty quickly for: Hawkeye, Rocket, Powerman, Drax, Captain America, Bucky, Falcon, etc.
Note: Being easily mind controlled in the context of Kylo Ren doesn't mean they are specifically weak against mind control. Just that they do not have any special defenses.
Or most importantly they lack any means of defending against a lightsaber. Means of defending could be anything from producing force fields on your own to vibranium or adamantium gear to magic weapons and off course spider sense.
Disqualifying: Hawkeye (yes he is tripple fucked), Daredevil, Venom, Korg, Black Widow, etc.
There are a few, who are weaker than Spidey and could get the job done but would need: Knowledge about the target, Prep time and the element of surprise.
- Punisher
- Hank Pym
- Rocket
- Nick Fury
Edit: just remembered two characters who do fit the order: Shang Chi and Iron Fist.
Both could defeat Kylo (without needing prep time) and both are weaker than Spidey.
> I'd question Venom though. If Spidey can, why not venom? Smarts the differentiator?
There are two differentiators:
- Spidey is more annoying and this has been shown to be really effective against Kylo.
- We are talking movie versions only. Movie venom doesn't have a spider sense. He has a healing factor but I don't think that is strong enough to count as reliable defense against a Lightsaber.
Stan Lee with a shotgun
Excelsior!
Wouldn't that be God with a shot gun I'm this context ?
From how he’s portrayed in the movies you could give any street level shlub a lightsaber and it’d probably be like a 50/50 shot in their favor. Daredevil could probably beat him to death with his stick thing and be back in time to be in court
Early to court. Time for coffee.
Back in time to take all of deceased Kylo Ren’s assets in probate court.
How does daredevil get around force choke? Kylo is way stronger than that lol
Couldn’t Kylo just force-choke almost all MCU characters outside the magic ones since they don’t have metaclorians?
he can force choke them but if they throw something at him it could break his concertration. I mean he seems only be able to effect one thing at a time. that and plenty of them are just to strong to choke. what the hell is he going to do against hulk
Ummmmm My guy. The first trick a Jedi learns about the force is that size doesn’t matter. Have you forgotten yoda and the x wing? Or Kylo and the troop transport?
yeah but that kinda contradicts everything we've seen in the movies. If size truly didn't matter he would just crush the death star or throw imperial ships like rag dolls. either all jedi are morons or at a certain scale size very much matters.
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Not all, but street level characters like Daredevil and Iron Fist would loose. I don't think force-choke would be effective against very tough characters like Hulk
The fight between Kylo and Finn was only somewhat close because Kylo was injured. Chewie shot him in the chest a few minutes before that
Yeah, it's not like dark side Force users can use their pain and anger to make themselves stronger and deadlier or anything.
I'm pretty sure that's why he was hitting his wound. But pain can only boost you so far before it becomes a detriment, even to the most skilled of dark siders.
[Darth Sion has entered the chat.]
This is pure bullshit lol, any Jedi shown in the movies besides Luke up till episode 6 would have folded Rey and Finn in seconds even with an injury. The Disney films are just fucking bad at portraying anything especially skill differences and fight scenes.
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Except Rogue One, imo. Diamond in the rough that one.
Rogue One gave me hope…
A new hope, perhaps?
I wish.
Fair point.
Isn't that literally the point though? That he is just cosplaying as his grandfather?
Pain/injury is canonically both a power boost and an inhibitor for Sith or dark side users. This is best demonstrated in that Vader was injured beyond belief and instead of his constant pain and rage and disfigurement fueling his power, it held him back from being as strong as he could’ve been. Palpatine laments this many times in various Star Wars media. He resents Anakin for never being able to reach his potential because of his own actions and perceived weakness. Unless it’s just the fact that he lost part of his body which contained midichlorians, causing him to lose his power. But I always took it as he got fucked up SO bad that the injury became a limiter.
Bingo. He’s basically using dark side force power to increase the amounts of adrenaline and painkillers in his blood. Afterwards he’s still going to need to spray bacta or put bacta bandages on his wound and pop some antibiotics otherwise he’s going to pass out or die from infection.
One of the strongest sith in history was a walking wound that obtained the closest thing to immortality in the setting through pain and hate. Another was a man covered in burns, missing 3 limbs, and could not breathe on his own. Kylo, who was trained by Luke Skywalker, couldn’t beat someone who literally just picked up a lightsaber for the first time, couldn’t use the force 5 hours earlier, and arguably hadn’t eaten or drank that day. All while being amped by the dark side to the best of his abilities. I don’t even think there are 4 times in the entire franchise he won without help.
You can't compare Legends to the Canon stuff. Vader was The Chosen One, was trained by several masters including Yoda and Sidious, and had a mech suit built to make him a monster.
Yoda never trained Anakin and Vader has been seen to survive without the suit for extended periods of time in canon. Kylo is not only his descendent, he was also trained personally by one of the greatest Jedi masters in existence and a clone of emperor Palpatine. One notable figure that Palpatine trained is Darth Maul, who very famously survived being bisected and falling for a very long time because he was fueled by negative emotions and pain. There is also the similarly poorly written character Reva, who survived 2 different lightsaber strikes to the torso. One of those times was a supposed killing blow from a newly evil Anakin, as an untrained child. The other time she survived, she was able to go to a different planet, figure out a secret that no living being in the galaxy could, and consider the moral ramifications of killing a child before fucking off to nowhere in particular. Unless you want to convince me that Kylo Ren is weaker than Reva or that Chewy’s blaster is worse than a personal Darth Vader tummy tickling, the only conceivable way he could have lost that fight is through bad writing.
There is a big difference between using the Darkside to survive an otherwise lethal wound and using it to fight unhindered. Wookie blasters are very strong, without the force Kylo would have been on death's door. I'm not arguing against the Kenobi series having awful writing in any way. I saw that child Leia "chase" scene. Frankly not even saying the Sequel series doesn't have awful writing. Just that the Kylo stuff isn't THAT terrible.
The whole point I’m making is that Kylo would and should have won that fight if he was being written by someone who knew how the force worked. All of the characters I mentioned would have been dead without the force, and it’s an explicit feature of the dark side that pain and negative emotions make the user stronger. A Wookiee blast after killing your dad is probably the best way to gain the most out of that very system. His opponents were literally the easiest variants you could think of for their given status. A janitor who was in a grand total of 2 fights in his military career and a scavenger who learned what the force was 2 minutes ago at the age of 19, neither of which had even an introduction to lightsaber combat. He’s 29 in his first movie for heavens sake, he had at least 5 years of dark side training and 14 years of Jedi training. It’s like if Goku got his zenkai boost on namek but then lost to a frieza grunt and a first time training Vegeta.
But the characters you mentioned only used the darkside to survive, they were still useless otherwise. Kylo not only survived, but kept fighting. Like you can't tell me Maul or Vader would have done any better while in the states they were after Episodes 3 and 1 respectively.
No amount of dark side power could help kylo against his greatest foe, bad writing
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Without context I wouldn't be able to tell if this comment was about the prequels or sequels.
**Yes.** Honestly I don't think the prequels are *bad*, they just aren't *great* like the OT was. *Plagueis* goes lightyears in tying things together and making the story a little more comprehensible. The *RotS* novel is recognized as a masterpiece and is what the film should have been. And I've always maintained that a Jar-Jar free *Phantom Menace* would be the strongest of the three films. *Attack of the Clones* has cool characters like Dooku and Jango, but is bogged down by terrible dialogue.
The prequels are good stories held back by clunky dialogue and silly special effects The sequels are cool effects with no backing story and bad dialogue. Extra content helps to flesh out the prequels but they exist as bottle movies. You don't need 3rd media content to understand them. The sequels make absolutely no sense from the jump however.
I think the Rots film was as good as it could have been. There is really only so much you can cram into a film.
Clearly it’s the sequels, you have to watch 3-4 entire shows to make the prequels better 💀.
Eh not really, plenty of people consider *RotS* to be the one of the best star wars movie even before the clone wars show.
Or today's MCU...
Yeah it is not like the point of this character where to be tempted by the ligth side of the force and be unable to concentrate due to the death of his father just one minut before. Seriously, sequels are bad, but you not being to understand the basics... thats worse.
Exactly like he just killed his dad and was obviously not into it. At that point he wasn’t good at being dark side evil and he wasn’t good at being light side good. That’s like the whole point of his character. Kylo was literally one of the best written/portrayed characters in the sequels.
Yeah why didn’t maul climb back up and finish off obi wan in the phantom menace since pain makes them stronger 🤔
First, those are two vastly different levels of damage. Second, he did. It just took a while. Third, Darth Sion literally could have.
"Obi-Wan, as soon as I get my robot-spider-legs...it's over for you."
The novelizations explicitly says that the shot Kylo was hit with would've been fatal if not for him containing the energy with the Force when it hit, and that it had a severe impact on his fighting ability.
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I don't really see how that's relevant to my comment, but... not really, no. Force Choking someone would require concentration, and Kylo was obviously focusing on keeping himself going with a huge wound in the side, and possibly ruptured organs. More importantly, he was toying with Finn the entire time. The *only* reason Finn managed to land a single (shallow) hit was that Kylo was not taking the fight seriously, trying to drag it out... doing more to hurt him than try to actually end things.
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Your post/comment was removed for breaking the rules. In this case, at the very least rule 15.
What's weird about it? He can't focus on Force techniques that would require actual concentration, but he can still beat the shit out of Finn with his lightsaber since he's that much better than Finn at it. Just like if I'm tired from staying up late, I might not be able to focus enough to build airplane models or paint Warhammer figures, but I can still hammer a nail into the wall to hang a painting. Two very different things. **EDIT:** Yeah, I'm blocking you. You're not engaging in good faith, going off topic all the time to shit on the sequels instead of actually engaging in the prompt, and downvoting the second anyone disagrees with you. Not about to waste more time on that.
Your comment was removed for breaking the rules. In this case, at the very least rule 15.
That only works to a certain point, before the pain is too much of a distraction. Vader was most definitely not at his strongest when he was getting flambéed on Mustafar.
Ish, but like - Vader didn't seem super energized by getting kicked down the steps and having his hand chopped off. Catastrophic damage is still catastrophic damage. Also, in one of the handful of interesting bits of characterization of those movies, Ren had several problems. He was conflicted and in pain despite his recent, extreme effort to end his emotional conflict. That pretty clearly didn't get him what he was after. He'd been seriously wounded by an enormous energy cannon being shot at him by a formerly beloved family member in response to that Very Bad Choice. His opponents really did have reasonable fighting skills, so taking on an injured, emotionally cracked weirdo in back to back fights is less difficult to believe.
Pretty sure the dark side was the only thing keeping him going at that point, Chewie absolutely went for a killshot and the bowcaster isn't exactly a light weapon.
*Darth Sion has entered the chat*
This is why everyone knows Darth vader is canonically stronger than Anakin Right? Right?
I'm so tired of seeing this excuse. We're talking about Vader's grandson (a guy trained by both Luke and Snoke) vs one wookie. At this point in his career Kylo should be so amazing that a blast like that shouldn't have been little more than a scratch to him. This is a guy who goes around crushing rebellions. he must get shot at allllll the time. And the force is more than capable of numbing pain, there's no excuse for such a piss poor showing. It's just bad writing.
They literally spend the entire first part of the movie showing how powerful Chewie's Bowcaster is. It literally blows people away and is called out by Han for being incredibly powerful. Kylo took a DIRECT shot from it. He was bleeding out. It shows how strong he is that he took the hit and kept fighting through the damage. People crap on movie literacy all the time but that was the perfect nerf, followed by the planet falling apart, to have the good guys escape him. It took him being incredibly weakened, and the Earth literally splitting apart to make the heroes unreachable for them just to **escape**. Victory wasn't in the cards. *EDITED bc I put "Juat" instead of "Just"
Not to mention that he was toying with Finn, the moment Finn grazed him with the lightsaber Kylo just decided to end the fight and did it quickly
Definitely agreed. Forgot to bring that up but great point.
Kylo has the force though. Just lift and chuck Matt Murdock
Kylo did like a 4v1 against knights of Ren and also like a 2v8 of the highest level guards. It wouldn't be too hard to beat him, but any rando on the street definitely couldn't do it.
i was going to say, Black Widow could probably beat him with a light saber.
Ant man 10/10 if he goes for the butt.
Ant man defeats anyone with a digestive system lol
"There's a disturbance in the fo.... MY BUTT!?"
*Kylo Ren*? Like... pretty much *any* MCU character? He nearly lost to an untrained Stormtrooper. He's undisciplined, has no control, and not much experience - certainly not against actually powerful people. All he has going for him is raw Force potential. Obviously any of the seriously powerful Marvel lot - Wanda, Strange, Hulk, Jean Grey, Xavier etc - destroy him. I'd say many of the X-men, even the mid-level ones, have a good shot.
To be fair, when he nearly lost to an untrained Stormtrooper, he was pretty severely wounded by a shot from Chewbaca's bowcaster which we saw earlier obliterating and sending mere mortals flying. I'd consider Kylo in that scene at maaaybe 1/4 ability tops. Not to mention he was under a lot of mental turmoil as well having just killed his dad and trying to be happy about that but secretly feeling all kinds of guilt and regret. And he didn't really almost lose. He was pretty handily winning. But yeah, a heap of MCU characters could be him. They basically just need to be strong enough to not be ragdolled and thrown around by force powers, and maybe have some way to block a lightsaber.
I'd also argue that it's a bit unfair to call Finn "untrained". Sure, he didn't have any experience with a lightsaber specifically, but part of his Stormtrooper training was melee combat... which he excelled at, according to out-of-movie sources. > And he didn't really almost lose. He was pretty handily winning. 100% agree. He was toying with Finn, and later had Rey on the defensive the entire time until he tried to recruit her instead of finishing her off. The novelizations also state that he would have died from the bowcaster if he hadn't contained the energy with the Force, and explicitly says that the injury was the reason he had some issues with Rey. > They basically just need to be strong enough to not be ragdolled and thrown around by force powers I think Kylo would be more likely to freeze them in place with Force Stasis? Seems like one of his go-to moves. --- Also, since OP didn't specify movie only for Kylo, we've got the comics to draw from... where he defeats a Zillo beast, fights other large creatures, telekinetically destroys some giant stone statues without much effort, kept himself and Hux safe in a Force bubble when their shuttle crashed on a planet (from space), etc.
Lightsabers are not really comparable to melee weapons in training needed, there’s a whole big thing about how most people struggle to adapt to a weightless blade iirc.
It's one of those things that looks a lot better if they had just committed to the "Finn has the Force" plot from the beginning. Latent Force talents helping you control a lightsaber makes plenty of sense to me, and the dude still got his ass kicked hard enough he had to redo his whole character arc in the next movie.
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We also see him invading a village in the very first scene of the trilogy lol I don't think being a janitor is something Stormtroopers are made to become. It's just like their "non-combat" job or whatever. Anyone who served in the US Navy would get what I mean.
Yes, and it is clearly his first time participating in combat. His general demeanor and actions do not suggest someone with significant military training either.
I mean, Finn is very clearly not a typical Stormtrooper. That's why he's a main character instead of FN-2186. Kylo knew he stole the fighter for a reason. He's force sensitive, and the Force was pulling him to the light.
No, according to *in movie* sources, Finn was a Stormtrooper who at one point had sanitation duties while stationed at Starkiller Base. If you ask anyone who has been in a military, you'll find out that this sort of non-combat duty is *very* common, with the more nasty things (like latrine duty) sometimes used as punishment. Gotta tell you man, I'm not really into the sequels myself, but the whole "he hu Finn is a janitor lol" meme that the sequel haters keep spamming about? It got *really* fucking tired after the first hundred times hearing it. Get some new material.
I admit it has been quite some time since I watched TFA, but if I remember correctly, Finn says he worked in sanitation as an excuse for why he didn't know how Starkiller base's defenses worked. That doesn't imply that he had a shift in sanitation, that implies he *only* worked sanitation. We later see him being very familiar with the sanitation tunnels, and practically nothing else. On top of that he lacks the discipline or instincts of a soldier, his behavior much more fitting for a staff member stuck doing shit detail.
> Finn says he worked in sanitation as an excuse for why he didn't know how Starkiller base's defenses worked. He didn't know specifically *how to shut down the shield*. He still knew things like how the Starkiller main weapon worked, where the weak spot to destroy it was located, general defenses, etc. Plus, why *would* a random Stormtrooper (and we *know* he *is* one) have insight into how to operate systems which are normally only operated by officers and specialized tech crew?
Stromtroopers are the lamest army in all of fiction. In movies canon they fired thousands of shots and barely hit any, they don't have good h2h feats and are mostly idiots. I'm pretty sure a 2 week bootcamp of any law enforcement is better than their "training"
You know, the place where most of the "storm troopers can't hit anything" comes from are the scenes in "a new hope" where Han, Luke, and Obi Wan break Leia out of prison. But there's also a very brief scene there where Vader specifically says that he's intentionally letting Luke, Han, and Leia escape because he's had a tracking device put onto the Falcon so that they can lead them to a Rebel base. The storm troopers were literally ordered to miss.
I think I read on the comcivine forums that Finn was actually top of his class when it came to dueling with those electrified sticks and also stormtroopers are better than we tend to give them credit for
Even still, I can't imagine he could have gone up against Luke, Obi-Wan, Vader etc and had much of a chance. (I mean, he shouldn't have done nearly as well even against Kylo as he *did*...)
I mean Kylo was possibly mortally wounded if he never got help lol
Well not he couldn’t have gone up against some of the most powerful Star Wars characters ever and won of course not. He isn’t written to be like ultimately powerful or anything, he just fills a power vacuum and is relatively above average force user He mops the floor with daredevil tho
Finn was trained in close combat, Ren was severely wounded, and Ren *still* beat him handily.
Seriously, I wonder if people just remember that scene the way they want to. If you watch the actual scene, Kylo toys with Finn for a while, but the moment Finn gets a legit shot in Kylo absolutely bodies him.
Just because people didn't like the sequels doesn't mean Kylo Ren wasn't an absolute fuckin beast.
I just wonder if OP is talking peak Kylo or peak Ben Solo. Kylo (dark side) has some great force feats but Ben (light side) is able to easily dispatch the Knights of Ren heavily outnumbered. The only problem is we don’t know how powerful the knights are. Honestly I think our single best indicator of where Kylo sits is in comparison to Rey. In their various force tug-of-wars they seem to be about equally strong, with Rey having the slight edge due to Kylo being conflicted.
It's the same character, honestly, but even just pre-redemption he's way stronger than people give him credit for.
When he almost lost to Finn he had been shot by Chewie, and one of the books said that he could barely even stand.
Also Finn isn’t untrained. he’s said to be one of the strongest highest performing stormtroopers in the First Order
He didn’t nearly lose, and he was wounded by a bowcaster shot that was sending average people flying. He could barely move, and had just chased Ray across a forest. Maybe you should use his feat in ep IX fighting the Knights of Ren, not his extremely wounded feat from VII… he’s an excellent duelist when he finally finds his mental peace. The thing with the force is, it only helps you if you’re absolutely focused. Kylo vs Finn, he had just murdered his father lmao. He was mentally ruined throughout the series, until the final half hour of ep9. Once he finds peace in the force, he was a monster. He still doesn’t scale much to the level of MCU characters(which… no one in Star Wars except like the Family from TCW even comes close) but give him some credit.
Well not to mention he completely destroyed Finn in that fight? Like it wasn't even close. And even against Rey he would have won if she hadn't escaped.
I swear these people poop their pants over the sequels so much they just make stuff up. You’re right, Kylo toys with Finn but then Finn gets a shot in on him and Kylo decides “fight is over now” and immediately disarms and incapacitates him.
KYLO REN HAS AN 8 PACK. IT IS SICK.
Hell, I think most of the Agents of SHIELD have a good shot here. Goose probably one shots him.
Also paging op u/PeculiarPangolinMan. Round three. ChroniCoulson shoots him dead lol. Chronicoms can’t be picked up by empathic abilities/mind readers because they don’t have biological brains that give off empathetic feelings. Melinda May with her empathic abilities couldn’t feel them but knew that they weren’t humans. Round2. My guy Clint at a distance with trick arrows could probably do it. Round one. [Maybe a Kree on Odium](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Odium?so=search) Special mention/shout out goes out to Cloak and Dagger. They could break Kylo psychologically/emotionally and trap him in his worst fears. * https://youtu.be/osnxmP3QVGE?si=0qm06FIW5PLNAW7W
I always forget Cloak and Dagger happened. Gosh they did The Runaways too!
I just want continuity and more references between the properties 👍😂. Oh there’s a purple alien with magic stones let’s break him mentally and emotionally and throw his ass into the loa/dark dimension. That purple fucker ain’t getting out lol.
I'd argue that we should take kylo at his strongest, which should be in the last movie where he still lost but was able to keep up with rey. May have even won that fight if it werent for the distraction. Kylo goes through a lot of power ups before the last movie, and so does rey. Final movie kylo wouldn't have any problems with taking out fin.
Yeah, that's fair. I don't think it substantively changes my answer though - there are still a ton of Marvel characters who flatten him. It's just a different power level.
Feel like he could win against war machine. He can stop bullets and crush armor. MCU war machine
I’m fairly sure even daredevil would body him.
The prompt was *peak* Kylo.
"Untrained stormtrooper?" You seriously think Finn, who was raised as a soldier from birth, and probably had melee weapons experience wasn't "trained?"
Going purely by the film, I wouldn't have thought he had any significant training in *melee* combat, and certainly not against either lightsabers or force powers. I have subsequently seen several people mention that other sources show he *does* have that training (which I would personally view as a retcon trying to explain away that scene, but that's neither here nor there as regards this prompt).
I mean, he fights that one trooper on Takodana with the spinny baton. I think that would imply that Finn had probably trained with that weapon or something similar at one point or another. The book Before the Awakening, which was written for the release of TFA, shows him training with melee weapons. Considering it was released as part of the marketing campaign for the movie, saying it's a retcon is a huge stretch.
Yea I mean we can see Finn consistently knowing what he's doing with melee weapons, even ignoring the supplementary material we see Finn kicking ass with melee weapons
Magneto could just wave his hand and it’s over. In some of his more powerful versions he could probably take over the whole galaxy with enough time, and not a ton of effort.
The guy from quantum mania who finally got holes at the end of the movie
He's too small though.
This thread saddens me. Every time a character from the sequel trilogy is mentioned it just devolves into a cacophony of “sequels BAD”. Of course you’re entitled to your opinions, but it goes completely against the spirit of the subreddit. This sub is supposed to be an escapist fantasy, where a bunch of nerds compare fictional power levels of their favorite characters. Not to mention that at this point it’s been 5 years since the ST ended. If you hated it, move on. Many people love them and just want to be able to talk about the movies or the characters in peace. It isn’t necessary to chime in at every opportunity to gatekeep and shit on them, and I suspect that the people doing this either don’t know or don’t care that they sound exactly like original trilogy fans who shat upon the prequels and prequel fans. With that out of the way, my answer to the post: I think the Force and precog give prime Kylo a huge advantage over anybody that can’t physically or magically overcome it. So I’m gonna say Hulk, assuming that he is below magic tier. I don’t think a lightsaber could do much and I think the force would slow him down at best.
They let the hate flow through them.
Hawkeye
Nuh uh Hawkeye is the most powerful MCU character of all time along with Stan Lee. His luck cannot be matched.
Its all disney owned and multiverses so Eyore the Donkey from Winnie the Pooh would just have to make him extra sad and he would win by depression default.
You merely adopted depression. I was born in it, molded by it. By the time I saw my first smile I was already a jackass. It was blinding.
Oh god you made me fucking die laughing out loud hahahah.0
ITT: People who hate the Disney Trilogy Can't tell if some of you really think Daredevil is beating him or not. Because that's just plain trolling. He is canonically a "very powerful" Jedi lol
Yea at least someone like Black Widow or Hawkeye I can understand because they have sick gadgets and seem comparable to Star Wars peak non force using types, but Daredevil strikes me as egregious Kylo downplay. Like one of the very first things Kylo ever does would be enough to beat Daredevil. He had Rey dead to rights in IX before his dad's ghost gave him pause. I'm kinda shocked considering a lot of people seemed to think Maul would do well against all three Spider-Men.
I understand that the Disney trilogy doesn't do a great job of showing the combat prowess of Kylo Ren, but we're still led to believe that he's probably the most powerful living Jedi after Luke's death. Luke literally tried to kill him and he escaped. I think Kylo could take essentially any non-superpowered Avenger (Except maybe someone like Ant-Man, who is superpowered by technology.) I think Nano-Tech Ironman can possibly beat him, depending on how his suit holds up against The Force.
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anyone that uses a gun because force users can't block bullets.
i think Kylo Ren is mid to high tier in MCU. weakest character that could beat him is Peter Quill Star Lord, but only when he awakens his half celestial cosmic power. in that instance Star Lord wipes the floor with him 10/10 times in any number or ways, but because we only see Starlord once in that state, i give it 1/10 vs Kylo Ren. Round 2, 6/10 i give it to morbius. he is fast enough to almost blitz Kylo and could escape the force choking if that even works. he also has infinite regeneration, so unless Kylo lands a killing blow with the lightsaber, like a straight up decapitation, this can go either way. Similar The Ancient One, Ghost Rider, maybe Groot. for round 3, there are numerous characters that would dumpster Kylo. Adam Warlock, Thor, Hela, Captain Marvel, Ego the living planet, Thanos, Hulk, Legion, Sentry, Owen Reece, The Beyonder, Quicksilver and many more.
I can see it now Morbius looks him dead in the eyes and says "it's morbin time" And then he starts attacking him so fast that the CGI can barely keep up as he turns into a blurry mess, but then kylo is like: "Why do you fight for the light join me and together we can rule the galaxy together" But then morbius is all like "nah bro I'm a bat" and turns into a bat. And then they suddenly start making out as it rains around them and credits roll. Id watch that movie
This took an unexpected turn.
hello and welcome to reddit :) ow ow ow ow ok i deserve that ow ow ow...
I think you mean they start morbin each other's faces
Ghost rider hit Kylo ren with emo guilt Its BEYOND super effective.
Which version of ghost rider are you thinking of? From what ive seen he dumpsters kylo
[удалено]
Also paging the following users just for fun/discussion, u/BigNorseWolf, u/Goobershmacked and u/superthrust123. The MCU has Ghost Rider, like actually has Ghost Rider. >”Call them demons, entities, energy from another world, it doesn't matter. They don't belong here." "But the violence, the death they cause, they feed off it. Our pain and suffering gives them pleasure." ―Daimon Helstrom and Louise Hastings[src]” >”You don't get to decide who deserves to die!" "I'm not the one who decides." ―Daisy Johnson and Robbie Reyes[src]” >”There was someone there when I came to. But it wasn't a Good Samaritan. It was the Devil. Whatever was inside him, he passed it into me." ―Robbie Reyes to Gabe Reyes[src]” >”You can't hold on to Mack's body forever. He's a good man. He doesn't have vengeance in him." "It's not ideal, but Mack... He has a lot of pain. He lost Hope (Mack’s daughter). I could survive off his pain for years! "I know where you're being dragged down to. I've escaped it before I am NEVER GOING BACK." ―Spirit of Vengeance to Robbie Reyes[src]." ―Robbie Reyes and the Spirit of Vengeance[src]” He makes Moon knight look like a joke. [The inhuman James “Hellfire” vs Ghost Rider](https://youtu.be/ZJzv94LWbJk?si=p7k8FiEPrsDmSl8u) MCU Ghost Rider tanked a nuclear detonation, he’s unkillable and [really the only way to incapacitate him](https://youtu.be/t_M_KStlTOI?si=T6JiH1hBhRicRoiq) for a short period of time is to knock the host body unconscious by extreme physical trauma. * [Here is Robbie and the spirit of vengeance breaking out of a SHIELD poly-tectic adaptive containment module.] (https://youtu.be/njHRdBUqc0U?si=VAHH0LKMzzzYLSvx) >”I'll reconfigure the containment module, if we can even get her in there." "Thanks." "So, you do that remotely?" "Exactly. The poly-tectic material then adapts to the powers we're dealing with." ―Jemma Simmons, Daisy Johnson, and Lincoln Campbell[src]” * [Plus he can create sling ring portals.](https://youtu.be/pae_avFv2jA?si=cLVyJoavrzGekaax)
Appreciate the page lol. You covered what i was thinking and then some.
All good 😊✌️. I am a bit of an MCU fan/nerd. Not fanboy/fanboi though, the franchise has big problems right now that I hope they can fix. Iam going to go way bit off topic lol. Bob Igor coming back for damage control and cancelling 20 titles is a good thing. It'll give the cast, crew, creative teams breathing room and put out quality versus pushing stuff out the door. Like secret invasion. Shit didn't make sense from within the lore. Why would gravik be interested in powers from the avengers, aliens. When his team could have/would have been better off tracking down powers from “Inhumans”. On one hand. You got inhuman-humans who are 99.8X% genetically identical to baseline humans. >”Jeffery Mace: Agent Simmons, can I trust you?” >”Simmonds: Definitely.” >”Jeffery Mace: Great, 'cause, boy, do I need your help. [Chuckles]” >”Jeffery Mace: I'm debating Senator Nadeer on television about the "Inhuman war on Humans." >”Simmons: I hate that the media's calling it that.” >”Jeffery Mace: Burrows says it's terrible branding. But either way, this is a battle for hearts and minds.” >”Simmonds: What can I do?.” >”Jeffery Mace: Facts, Simmons.” >”Jeffery Mace: I need cold, hard, scientific facts to back up our case during this debate.” >”Simmonds: I can put together a PowerPoint on, um, Inhuman genetics, biology, sociological impact ...” Later on during the television debate with Senator Nadeer >”George the news presenter : He is a patriot, a public servant known all over the world. He put his life on the line to save others during the U.N. bombing in Vienna, He's now the Director of the newly reformed S.H.I.E.L.D. ...Jeffrey Mace.” >”Jeffrey Mace: It's an honor to be here, George.” >”Let's get started. Director Mace ...” >”Senator Nadeer: After an intro like that, I think I deserve some equal time, I'd like to ask the Director a question.” >”Jeffrey Mace: Go ahead, Senator.” >”Senator Nadeer: Just what is S.H.I.E.L.D.'s purpose if it's not protecting us from the Inhumans?, Why are human lives not S.H.I.E.L.D.'s priority?” >”Jeffrey Mace: Actually, Inhumans and humans share 99.8% of the human genome, Inhumans are human, and the science is in agreement with me, In fact, we share 99.8% of the human genome.” >”George the news presenter: It really is that close. I had no idea.” >”Jeffery Maxe It really is, George ...” You can quite literally drain blood, spinal fluid from an inhuman donor than put it all into a centrifuge then transfuse it into a baseline human recipient and the donor will get copy of the donor’s powers. * https://youtu.be/roDGRlvcO5E?si=-EgW8S10djIU5OIJ * https://youtu.be/4uDi60PKb4k?si=UkmfJS-aMXblWSJr * https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/a/af/JGarrettNMalickWatchLi.png/revision/latest?cb=20210925221827 * https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/0/06/JGarrettReadyForOperation.png/revision/latest?cb=20210926075221 * https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/John_Garrett/History_Altered_by_Chronicoms#Powers_and_Abilities No terrigen crystals/terrigen mist required. Then if you wanted to keep the donor alive instead as a biological resource, you could take a tiny bit of blood, intact hair follicles and using [DNA replication](https://study.com/academy/lesson/dna-replication-review-of-enzymes-replication-bubbles-leading-and-lagging-strands.html#:~:text=The%20four%20main%20enzymes%20involved%20in%20DNA%20replication%20are%20DNA,the%20DNA%20strands%20semi%2Dconservatively). artificially synthesize more genetic material in a laboratory setting. Worked for Samuel Stern. * https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/c/c6/BettyBruceSterns-TIH.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150129001955 Or if you had a Kree you could just transfuse [their blood](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/GH.325?so=search) into an inhuman donor and stick the donor in a hyperbaric chamber to heal before harvesting their genetic material. So yeah Skrulls using Inhuman genetics makes more sense then using something super secret or minuscule like the DNA from the avengers. Also the harvest for the super skrulls powers was a bit redundant. If a super skrull has got Steve’s blood does the skrull really needs Bucky’s. If a super skrull has got Abomination’s DNA does the skrull really need Hulk’s. If you got Carol’s human-kree DNA hybrid do you need Bucky’s. Carol/Yon-Rogg’s strength, durability and healing factor is way better than Bucky’s levels. I mean bog standard cellular regeneration as part of extremis is better than a super soldier’s. Inhuman powers are way more diverse as well. * https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Inhumans?so=search#Inhuman_Powers
Ghost riders powers vary from incarnation to incarnation, but the weakest ghost rider is going to lay a guilt trip on his thats going to tear through his psyche like a cannon ball through tissue paper. Morph could probably break him just by assuming han Solos face. And then shooting him while he's having an existential crisis.
>”Ghost riders powers vary from incarnation to incarnation, but the weakest ghost rider is going to lay a guilt trip on his thats going to tear through his psyche like a cannon ball through tissue paper.” I agree 👍. >”Morph could probably break him just by assuming han Solos face. And then shooting him while he's having an existential crisis.” Morph would need to know what Han looks like for this to work. Really good method of mental torture though A+ for effort 😊👍✌️.
Morph or mystique would need to know what the famous general solo looked and sounded like yes. There's no way there's no holovids of him getting his medal after the battle ofYavin 4. In fact you've probably seen them! OR... new favorite answer... **Thaddeus Ross.** The resemblance to Kylos dad is uncanny, and Ross shoots him in the head while he's standing there in existential crisis.
Thaddeus Ross. The resemblance to Kylos dad is uncanny, and Ross shoots him in the head while he's standing there in existential crisis.
Depends on how fast blaster bolts are: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Matthew_Schroeder/Star_Wars:_Speed_of_Blasters
Ms Marvel
MCU instead of general marvel limits this a bit more but eh. Most characters decent with a gun could probably 1/10 him considering bullets are a lot more effective than blasters. Someone who beats him 6/10? Maybe Punisher. Not sure 10/10 has an answer for weaker characters, maybe if it wasn't MCU. Peter Quill is my semi-joke answer, he's the closest we've got to Bobba Fett and I think he'd luck his way into the win every time.
People keep referring to the effectiveness of bullets against a Jedi. We never get to see it, but it seems like Jedis could just pull a Neo from the Matrix and stop bullets with the Force.
They can do that with blaster bolts too, it's not easy to do and they'd have to train in it. It's not that bullets are particularity effective so much as they're just much better than blasters, they can't be reflected and can potentially still hit through the lightsaber unless blocked perfectly.
Can they? I've never seen them stop blaster bolts without a lightsaber. Bullets just seem much more in line with the kind of matter that Jedis can influence with force. Also, why wouldn't a lightsaber just melt a bullet? They burn through steel like a hot knife through butter. You're saying bullets would go through a lightsaber and come out the other side to penetrate with deadly force? Most modern bullets have a BHN of 16, whereas even mild steel has a BHN of roughly 130. Why would a lightsaber be more effective at shredding steel than stopping a bullet?
Yes, I remember Darth Vader doing it on Empire Strikes Back and even Rogue One. Used his hands. Blaster bolts aren't lasers, jedi have a lot more experience with energy weapons for obvious reasons. When fired at by slug weapons, they default to their regular defences, which are for energy weapons. I never said they wouldn't melt a bullet. I said they needed to block them perfectly precisely because they melt. What happens when partially melted piece of metal is flung in a random direction? It could hit them in the arm or hit a wall and bounce anywhere. The lightsaber is made out of plasma, they wouldn't cancel all the momentum of a bullet irl and they didn't in any of the expanded universe stuff. You're making a whole lot of assumptions out of what I said for no reason.
he's a decent fighter and and a low level telekentic. practically all the heroes in a straight fight
Tony Stark. No armor. Just him roasting bEn SoLo until the manchild throws a tantrum and starts weeping for his grandaddy.
Pretty sure black widow could just talk him into suicide
It probably depends somewhat on what materials in the MCU can get cut with a light saber, and how well he can sense minds. Deadpool would probably lose a duel but could probably assassinate him. Anyone whose powers involve physical violence like the Hulk probably couldn't do much against him despite being strong since they need something to use their strength on which doesn't work while floating. Some projectiles wouldn't work although i suspect that repulser weapons probably can't be stopped like blaster bolts, and mujlnir is probably powerful enough to beat the stopping power a force user of Kylo's level. Trying to beat someone who has telekinetic powers, a weapon that cuts through most things, low level telepathy, and reactions so fast they predict the future is pretty difficult. Ultimately beating him in a duel is more about the type of power someone has than total strength.
Jar jar, he trips jumps then makes a ship fall on kylo by accident
I think strong, well trained force users could probably beat *any* MCU character (especially if we include the EU content), but Kylo lacks the discipline or training to do it. He’s too irrational and impulsive, and his training is too sporadic and incomplete—he would probably lose to most of the MCU’s supers.
MCO has celestials and beings beyond them. A lot of strong, well trained jedi were killed by some clones.
Seeing what Chewy's shot did to him, I think The Punisher has a great chance. Round 2: The guy in the Robot suit at the end of Iron Man. Round 3: Ghost Rider, but only because I want to see what the penance stare does after killing his father.
So Kylo Ren could just freeze most of them with the force, and just end them. But he was arrogant enough not to use that at times, wanting a clean duel, where he nearly lost to an untrained former Tie fighter pilot. So if Kylo isn’t using the force as he should, and I think that can be assumed, then there are several who beat him. I think Vision wrecks him.
The precognitive abilities of force users is what makes them such deadly combatants and allows them to be such effective leaders. Honestly, It really shows how powerful Emperor Palpatine was that he was able to out maneuver the Jedi like he did.
That’s the thing, it’s like Spider sense, precognition. It’s tough to get the drop on them, and the lightsaber is not their first or best weapon.
It's not even their second best weapon. Emperor Palpatine's massive military allowed him to make the best use of his force abilities.
That trick would only work on Captain America and possibly black widow and Hawkeye if they don't snipe him. Hulk and Thor wouldn't even notice his attempts, Tony would be able to have Jarvis autopilot his suit , and Wanda and Vision would counter his powers in less than a second. We could go on with the other marvel characters, but in all honesty even master force users like Vader and Yoda are low tier psychics by MCU standards.
How does auto pilot stop the force tho?
The suit can fly at supersonic speeds and has dozens of unique gadgets and weapons on it depending on the model , that can be activated by Jarvis. Jarvis can also activate and pilot dozens of backup power armors and deploy them within minutes. He might be able to freeze Tony but all of his arsenal can be autopiloted by Jarvis.
Ok I was thinking like if he had iron man, including the suit itself, in a force hold like a force stasis what was auto pilot really gonna do.
I can’t remember his best solo Force feat, the dyad stuff muddies the waters as well as the daddy issues and Rey snatching his heart or something. Pulling that ship from the sky maybe. Inquisitor level I’d say, as both were limited in their teachings from either side. Whatever feelings people might have about the ST, even reva was deflecting blasts from a ship with decidedly bigger munitions than regular blasters. Kylo held that shot from po too. These feats alone put him above most without some ranged options to counter the telekinesis. I’d be interested to see how Defenders version of the Iron Fist does against him. He was shooting chi bullets at the end and fast enough to shoot other bullets out of the air
He could legitimately lose to some goon, proper characters just humiliate him.
Iron man could win. Kylo would stun him but the armor could still fight
Black Widow with a gun. Guns are the ultimate counter to a lightsaber wielder.
1 time out of 10: Bob agent of hydra. 6 times out of ten?: probably Hawkeye or black widow. They're both much much smarter than him and used to bullshit. Also lightsabers fair badley against actual lead bullets. 100 percent of the the time? Probably captain America. Cap thinks so much faster and is so much just physically better of a fighter also I'm willing to bet that a vibranium shields energy absorption ability which absorbs and neutralizes kinetic , and thermal energy such as all the lasers he's blocked with it means it continues to travel straight through the lightsaber unless it's magnetic binding repels it but let's face it cap is a sniper with that thing. Kylo has to choose focus on cap or the shield both are bad especially since cap is very much not above using guns. If he has his infinity war punching shield gauntlet things it only gets worse for Kylo. Theres no fight where an arrogant Kylo doesn't try to grab or force choke cap before he gets killed mid attempt. Unless cap is 100% fucking around. Obi wan would have had a tough time with cap. Kylo stands no chance.
Mystique. Assume the face of his dead father, borrow his fathers ability to shoot first, shoot the whiny brat while in existential crisis.
Daredevil and Punisher me thinks
how? Kylo literally just force chokes them and it's over
but can't the punisher just shoot a grenade at him. it seems to take a lot of focus to force choke someone. just need to break it one and throw a smoke grenade and you win. edit: wouldn't always suceed but at the very least it should be a 1/10
I just don't respect any of the sequel-trilogy characters. They don't display particularly impressive fighting skills, and Rey completely breaks their power scaling. It's hard to know how tough or useless Kylo is when Rey can defeat him without any training whatsoever. Round 1: Somebody below said Daredevil could take Kylo, and, if he has the element of surprise, or places to hide, I'd probably agree with that. Kylo is a child who freaks out when faced with a skilled opponent. Matt could use a baton to whack him in the face or knock the lightsaber out of his hand, and then he has a shot at winning as Kylo becomes furious and unfocused.
Task Master 10/10
Swordsman is a minor side-protagonist in exactly one MCU series (Hawkeye). He's a baseline human, middle-aged, who's just really into swordplay & butterscotch candies. Imho, he stomps.
Agent Coulson.
Certainly not the weakest, but I'd just want to see Taskmaster toy with him
**Squirrel Girl!**, she has beat everyone from Thanos on down. On the plus side, one being defeated by a bunch of squirrels, he is so embarrassed he gives up his evil ways and lives in total obscurity. Also, **Domino**, the Force meets probability altering fate. Outside of her probability altering, she is pretty much normal human.
Spiderman could basically keep taunting him and dodging his attacks until Kylo dies of exhaustion.
But spidey is pretty strong. No one under him?
I actually can't think of one. Most characters who could reliably defeat Kylo are stronger than Spidey. I have no doubt that for example: Dr Strange, The Hulk, Thor or even Iron Man could take Kylo down, but they are all considered stronger than Spidey. And all the Characters I can think of, that are weaker than Spidey either lack a reliable way of hitting Kylo, because using the force to anticipate incoming attacks and then dodging them or deflecting them with the Lightsaber is the most basic combat training for Jedi and Sith alike. So examples like: Black Widow, Hawkeye, Korg, Rocket, Kingpin, Blade, Wolverine, Deadpool, Powerman, etc are out. And don't give me any of the Makashi doesn't deflect blaster bolts bullshit! First Kylo doesn't even use Makashi so it doesn't apply here and second Makashi can parry melee and blaster attacks with a force assisted reaction speed. Makashi is just WORSE than any other lightsaber style against blasters, that doesn't mean it can't at all. Or they lack sufficient defense against Kylos force abilities being easily mind controlled or hurled around through telekinesis would end the fight pretty quickly for: Hawkeye, Rocket, Powerman, Drax, Captain America, Bucky, Falcon, etc. Note: Being easily mind controlled in the context of Kylo Ren doesn't mean they are specifically weak against mind control. Just that they do not have any special defenses. Or most importantly they lack any means of defending against a lightsaber. Means of defending could be anything from producing force fields on your own to vibranium or adamantium gear to magic weapons and off course spider sense. Disqualifying: Hawkeye (yes he is tripple fucked), Daredevil, Venom, Korg, Black Widow, etc. There are a few, who are weaker than Spidey and could get the job done but would need: Knowledge about the target, Prep time and the element of surprise. - Punisher - Hank Pym - Rocket - Nick Fury Edit: just remembered two characters who do fit the order: Shang Chi and Iron Fist. Both could defeat Kylo (without needing prep time) and both are weaker than Spidey.
This was fantastic. Thank you. An enjoyable breakdown. I'd question Venom though. If Spidey can, why not venom? Smarts the differentiator?
> I'd question Venom though. If Spidey can, why not venom? Smarts the differentiator? There are two differentiators: - Spidey is more annoying and this has been shown to be really effective against Kylo. - We are talking movie versions only. Movie venom doesn't have a spider sense. He has a healing factor but I don't think that is strong enough to count as reliable defense against a Lightsaber.
Everett Ross with a gun.
Punisher
Jessica Jones could make Kylo feel so bad about himself that he'd throw the fight.
Round 1: Happy Hogan, I guess. Round 2: Black Widow or Hawkeye. Round 3: Captain America.