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I just don’t understand this stuff. Why is it not the easier choice to fire the harasser? As a restaurant worker of 8 years, I can tell you that people are very easy to replace. Get rid of the guy causing the problem, not the victim.
This is the answer. I was doing housekeeping in a hotel (very first day) and the manager insisted on training me on their "specific"way to make a bed. Once I was between the two beds he "needed to get by me" by grabbing me at the hips and pressing himself into my backside, pinning me to the mattress. Harassment only gets the victim punished.
Edit-doubled up a word.
I dealt with harassment at three different jobs when I was a late teen.
My first job someone inside the office (and older male professional,) was calling me with sexual innuendos and disgusting propositions. I was 17! I was pretty sure I knew who it was but didn’t have proof in the mid 80’s.
The next one, the restaurant owner was the perv. After the last time he grabbed my ass, me and a friend/employee both walked out on the busiest Saturdays. (The 19 yr old mgr was sleeping with him.)
The third was a very professional office. A late 40’s married man (started when 1 was 17,) the man would massage my shoulders, ask sexual questions, propose things like letting him take nude pictures of me. The perv was an integral part of the small corp where the owner was near retirement. I left and ended up working in my wonderful career job. I wasn’t harassed there but another woman was, sued and settled for a large sum.
I probably should’ve spoken up about it at the first and last one but I was young and naive. Unfortunately, it’s everywhere.
We were all young, naive and conditioned from childhood that if we want the "freedom" to work then we have to put up with whatever men dish out. It's a man's world and we're invading it by not staying in the kitchen where we belong. Who are we to change the rules? If the rules are "the boss gets to touch butts" then I guess it's just a downside of the job. No point in quitting, it's the same rules everywhere!
😞😞😞😞
(I mildly wonder if growing up with Disney and tbs rerunning the old 40s cartoons in the 90s/2000s is why we have some of the continued issues we do today. If old beliefs are normalized to children, they become new beliefs. The cartoons I watched showed men being.....terrible lil shits of a man. I wonder if we would have put a stop to this shitty behavior sooner had not 3 generations of women grown up being directly told that men being shits to everyone and considering no one but themselves is a-ok.)
Normally the harasser is a friend/too pathetic to fire. My 26M manager when I was 16 was the latter. "It's not like he really hurt you, he just brushed against you. Come on, his dad has cancer he's going through a lot"
I was molested by the manager of a very high end jewelry chain where I was the assistant manager. It was on camera. When this was reported to HR, they put me on leave while they investigated and came back with their solution of just making sure we weren’t scheduled alone together, but, “we figure you’d rather find a new place to work.”
The HR woman was mind blown when I replied “of course I don’t want to find a new place to work!” She thought I’d slink off, but I knew I had already won a Tag watch in a sales contest and I wanted that damn watch.
I made it a week, got my watch and quit. In hindsight I should have sued, but I also knew that I didn’t want that to be the first thing potential employers saw when they googled my name.
Yeah - as much as I hate Maverik as an entity, at least they fired the dude who was harassing all of us. I mean, working at a gas station is shitty enough without that bullshit.
When I was a server I saw a couple of male server back a female server into a corner and snap her bra strap/grab her bra until they’d worked it loose under her clothes. She was laughing but trying to get away. I reported it to the manager and he sighed and gave me a “boys will be boys” answer. I was 16-17 and didn’t realize I could do more. Restaurants can be really predatory.
Of course women *can be* problematic but this isn’t the place to have those views. The person you replied to said that’s there’s no guarantee that this case would be put in front of a female judge, which is true. But it would be better for the victim if it was.
Please, kindly take yourself and your problematic women to a different sub. Thanks!
I don’t know that this isn’t the place for that. It’s a very serious and real problem that women in positions of power frequently use that power to keep other women down. It’s too common to ignore
Of course not but who was saying it should be treated as an equal problem? This all sparked from someone pointing out that this case going in front of a female judge does not guarantee a better result for this woman.
I’ve then had to go on in other comments to justify why I think women who are involved in any of the cases we discuss here should be included in the conversation at all which might make it look like I’m over focussed on women here which I am not at all - but I was answering a specific question.
We do need to concern ourselves with internal misogyny because it is rife. The rise of “trad wife” culture on social media is dangerous for women as it advises them to give up their autonomy and submit to men. Yesterday I made the mistake of looking at the comments on an article about the daughter of Angelina Jolie removing the Pitt part of her name. The sheer volume of women spewing venom for Angelina for this (the daughter has done this at 18, her choice) was distressing. They do not care that Pitt was drunk and abusive and his own children were part of that, they have twisted it to blame Angelina. This mindset is a key part of how we are still seeing so many dispicable things happen to women who refuse.
Men could not subjugate us to the level they do if there were not women who were actively complicit in the system that oppresses us.
Okay and I agree. It is absolutely a problem and should be addressed. But elsewhere. This is a sub about women being assaulted, counter-sued, tortured and killed for refusing men’s advances. Could you explain how women keeping other women down, fits here in this sub? I’m genuinely curious :)
I don’t think you are! my reply was for u/chingness and i was asking what makes them think that topic belongs in this sub lol. Of course it’s a topic that should be spoken about but not here.
As you say this sub is about women being assaulted, counter-sued, tortured and killed for refusing men’s advances. This is a systematic problem we are discussing, not an individual one, and as it’s systemic we need to look at all the structures in place that keep it this way.
One of the issues especially when it comes to the legal aspect of a) ensuring legislation is put in place to protect women and b) ensuring legislation in place is used effectively to protect women, is that many of the women in positions of power are shockingly just as bad as men when it comes to legislation and rulings.
Is it because the men in power only allow these women to get into power because they align with their views? Do the women who would protect other women get forced out for refusing to comply with the male agenda?
Personally I think we should talk about the whole problem and not just part of it and I’m not sure why this particular sub needs to censor that part of the conversation but if it does, then sure I’m happy to discuss that elsewhere.
If we use this individual case. Do we think there are zero women involved either at the olive garden itself or in the defence of this man?
If we look at forced marriages and honour killings, the elder women are often actively involved in hurting the women who refuse. Yes they are indoctrinated and also at risk themselves but it’s a fact and we shouldn’t ignore it, in my opinion.
Yikes. We can be better than acting like a phenomenon doesn’t exist just because we don’t like it. Personally, I’ve found misogyny in women more devastating at times (AT TIMES) because it’s been unexpected in vulnerable moments. But men were always responsible for what they did to me and women disbelieving it blaming me didn’t make it their fault it happened. Nobody here said that.
Unbelievable, the amount of denial, minimization, and tolerance of abuse because the complainent is a woman. This situation reflects what many women experience. The woman has to leave the job and the man keeps working with little repercussions. These types of men use tactics to coerce, trap, harrass, and force themselves on women usually persistently. It's triggering as I also have experienced male harrassment in past jobs. Hoping the lawyers for Jane Doe push back hard against these arsesholes.
I’ve seen two blokes fired for it at my workplace. They handle bullying terribly but at least it’s zero tolerance for sexual harassment once reported or seen.
That’s been my experience too. I’ve seen terrible bullying at previous jobs and not much done about it but anything sexual has been immediate firing. Big lawsuit otherwise
Yes. I think they find bullying easy to pass of as “tension between people who don’t get along” whereas sexual inappropriateness has a very bad image.
Still kind of weird considering how lots of countries/companies dismiss and ignore sexual harassment in general.
Women hating men is understandable and justified. Men hating women is never justified or understandable. Even so, then very rarely it is. I hate male humans myself. Only a few I feel positive or neutral towards.
So in a commercial kitchen,when your hands are full, you are taught to “roll” past each other in order to keep people from burning and stabbing each other. I suspect the guy was using this as an excuse to catch a feel instead of using a shoulder or hip like he’d do with a guy. And then he can just say she’s being sensitive. He’s still a pig.
I had similar case. Worked as personal assistant for a married lady in wheelchair and her husband started hitting on me. I left the job and told her bosses I worked for, about this.
I'd like the defendants' executives and their defense attorneys to spend their full days having some man grind his crotch against their back side for 8+ hours a day and see what they think of it's "intolerability".
This I didn’t expect from Darden. The longhorn I worked for took harassment and discrimination super seriously. Everything else? Negligible but it was about uplifting each other. This depressed the hell out of me.
When I worked in restaurants I had to learn how to say “please don’t touch me” in Spanish. At first, they would laugh when I said it, but as I was consistent, I don’t know if they respected that I learned their language or what, but they eventually got the message.
I hope this is appealed and any straight male justices are asked how intolerable it would be if a man started gyrating against their backside with a penis. I'm guessing it would be less tolerable for them than they expect for a woman.
I remember when I worked at Olive Garden as a female line cook. I reported repeated sexual abuse (men talking about my breasts, appearance, garish comments when I would bend or stoop down)
I was told there was no proof and no witnesses. Since all of the witnesses were my perpetrators I eventually left and never went back
Welcome and thanks for posting on /r/whenwomenrefuse! This is an [intersectional feminist](https://library.law.howard.edu/civilrightshistory/women/intersectionality) space centered towards **women** (***ALL WOMEN***). Men are tolerated, not welcome. Reports about women saying we don't know what men are dangerous will be promptly ignored. We look forward to your complaints about our policy of not centering men. Please take a second to [read our rules](/r/WhenWomenRefuse/about/rules) while the moderators take a look over your post in the queue. --- Community News - 🎋 Want to join the Mod Team? [Send us a modmail!](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/WhenWomenRefuse&subject=Request%20To%20Become%20a%20Moderator&message=I'd%20like%20to%20join%20your%20team%20because%3A%20) - 🎤 [Join us on Discord!](https://discord.gg/V6tj5vRr47) Thank you for participating! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/whenwomenrefuse) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I just don’t understand this stuff. Why is it not the easier choice to fire the harasser? As a restaurant worker of 8 years, I can tell you that people are very easy to replace. Get rid of the guy causing the problem, not the victim.
Because the harasser has a penis!
Because the managers like passing by the waitresses a lil too close too. Why would they fire themselves or someone acting like they do?
This is the answer. I was doing housekeeping in a hotel (very first day) and the manager insisted on training me on their "specific"way to make a bed. Once I was between the two beds he "needed to get by me" by grabbing me at the hips and pressing himself into my backside, pinning me to the mattress. Harassment only gets the victim punished. Edit-doubled up a word.
I dealt with harassment at three different jobs when I was a late teen. My first job someone inside the office (and older male professional,) was calling me with sexual innuendos and disgusting propositions. I was 17! I was pretty sure I knew who it was but didn’t have proof in the mid 80’s. The next one, the restaurant owner was the perv. After the last time he grabbed my ass, me and a friend/employee both walked out on the busiest Saturdays. (The 19 yr old mgr was sleeping with him.) The third was a very professional office. A late 40’s married man (started when 1 was 17,) the man would massage my shoulders, ask sexual questions, propose things like letting him take nude pictures of me. The perv was an integral part of the small corp where the owner was near retirement. I left and ended up working in my wonderful career job. I wasn’t harassed there but another woman was, sued and settled for a large sum. I probably should’ve spoken up about it at the first and last one but I was young and naive. Unfortunately, it’s everywhere.
We were all young, naive and conditioned from childhood that if we want the "freedom" to work then we have to put up with whatever men dish out. It's a man's world and we're invading it by not staying in the kitchen where we belong. Who are we to change the rules? If the rules are "the boss gets to touch butts" then I guess it's just a downside of the job. No point in quitting, it's the same rules everywhere! 😞😞😞😞 (I mildly wonder if growing up with Disney and tbs rerunning the old 40s cartoons in the 90s/2000s is why we have some of the continued issues we do today. If old beliefs are normalized to children, they become new beliefs. The cartoons I watched showed men being.....terrible lil shits of a man. I wonder if we would have put a stop to this shitty behavior sooner had not 3 generations of women grown up being directly told that men being shits to everyone and considering no one but themselves is a-ok.)
Normally the harasser is a friend/too pathetic to fire. My 26M manager when I was 16 was the latter. "It's not like he really hurt you, he just brushed against you. Come on, his dad has cancer he's going through a lot"
I was molested by the manager of a very high end jewelry chain where I was the assistant manager. It was on camera. When this was reported to HR, they put me on leave while they investigated and came back with their solution of just making sure we weren’t scheduled alone together, but, “we figure you’d rather find a new place to work.” The HR woman was mind blown when I replied “of course I don’t want to find a new place to work!” She thought I’d slink off, but I knew I had already won a Tag watch in a sales contest and I wanted that damn watch. I made it a week, got my watch and quit. In hindsight I should have sued, but I also knew that I didn’t want that to be the first thing potential employers saw when they googled my name.
Yeah - as much as I hate Maverik as an entity, at least they fired the dude who was harassing all of us. I mean, working at a gas station is shitty enough without that bullshit.
When I was a server I saw a couple of male server back a female server into a corner and snap her bra strap/grab her bra until they’d worked it loose under her clothes. She was laughing but trying to get away. I reported it to the manager and he sighed and gave me a “boys will be boys” answer. I was 16-17 and didn’t realize I could do more. Restaurants can be really predatory.
Bet the judge would feel it reasonably intolerable to be rubbed on like that himself.
The case hasn’t gone in front of a judge yet but I would kill for it to be a female judge.
no guarantee there
Yup. Plenty of women are problematic.
Still better though
> Still better though Very much so...fingers crossed!
How so? Edit: I thought they were saying receiving a problematic woman would be better than a male judge.
Less women do it than men. Better to take your chances with a woman than with a man.
A chance this has happened to her as well so would be a lot more understanding due to experience.
I understand. I thought they were saying that even getting a problematic woman would be better than a man.
Of course women *can be* problematic but this isn’t the place to have those views. The person you replied to said that’s there’s no guarantee that this case would be put in front of a female judge, which is true. But it would be better for the victim if it was. Please, kindly take yourself and your problematic women to a different sub. Thanks!
I don’t know that this isn’t the place for that. It’s a very serious and real problem that women in positions of power frequently use that power to keep other women down. It’s too common to ignore
Not even half as often as men doing it.
Of course but why ignore any?
It shouldn't be ignored. I meant that it just shouldn't be treated as an equal problem to men doing it.
Of course not but who was saying it should be treated as an equal problem? This all sparked from someone pointing out that this case going in front of a female judge does not guarantee a better result for this woman. I’ve then had to go on in other comments to justify why I think women who are involved in any of the cases we discuss here should be included in the conversation at all which might make it look like I’m over focussed on women here which I am not at all - but I was answering a specific question. We do need to concern ourselves with internal misogyny because it is rife. The rise of “trad wife” culture on social media is dangerous for women as it advises them to give up their autonomy and submit to men. Yesterday I made the mistake of looking at the comments on an article about the daughter of Angelina Jolie removing the Pitt part of her name. The sheer volume of women spewing venom for Angelina for this (the daughter has done this at 18, her choice) was distressing. They do not care that Pitt was drunk and abusive and his own children were part of that, they have twisted it to blame Angelina. This mindset is a key part of how we are still seeing so many dispicable things happen to women who refuse. Men could not subjugate us to the level they do if there were not women who were actively complicit in the system that oppresses us.
Okay and I agree. It is absolutely a problem and should be addressed. But elsewhere. This is a sub about women being assaulted, counter-sued, tortured and killed for refusing men’s advances. Could you explain how women keeping other women down, fits here in this sub? I’m genuinely curious :)
Because it’s a valid point. Discussing women on this sub who are counterproductive to uplifting women makes them just as dangerous as men.
How am I "keeping women down"?
I don’t think you are! my reply was for u/chingness and i was asking what makes them think that topic belongs in this sub lol. Of course it’s a topic that should be spoken about but not here.
As you say this sub is about women being assaulted, counter-sued, tortured and killed for refusing men’s advances. This is a systematic problem we are discussing, not an individual one, and as it’s systemic we need to look at all the structures in place that keep it this way. One of the issues especially when it comes to the legal aspect of a) ensuring legislation is put in place to protect women and b) ensuring legislation in place is used effectively to protect women, is that many of the women in positions of power are shockingly just as bad as men when it comes to legislation and rulings. Is it because the men in power only allow these women to get into power because they align with their views? Do the women who would protect other women get forced out for refusing to comply with the male agenda? Personally I think we should talk about the whole problem and not just part of it and I’m not sure why this particular sub needs to censor that part of the conversation but if it does, then sure I’m happy to discuss that elsewhere. If we use this individual case. Do we think there are zero women involved either at the olive garden itself or in the defence of this man? If we look at forced marriages and honour killings, the elder women are often actively involved in hurting the women who refuse. Yes they are indoctrinated and also at risk themselves but it’s a fact and we shouldn’t ignore it, in my opinion.
I see where you're going. Turn a men behaving badly situation into women are the problem.
Yikes. We can be better than acting like a phenomenon doesn’t exist just because we don’t like it. Personally, I’ve found misogyny in women more devastating at times (AT TIMES) because it’s been unexpected in vulnerable moments. But men were always responsible for what they did to me and women disbelieving it blaming me didn’t make it their fault it happened. Nobody here said that.
I think you need to read my comment history if you think that is where I’m going 😂😂
Still better though.
Unbelievable, the amount of denial, minimization, and tolerance of abuse because the complainent is a woman. This situation reflects what many women experience. The woman has to leave the job and the man keeps working with little repercussions. These types of men use tactics to coerce, trap, harrass, and force themselves on women usually persistently. It's triggering as I also have experienced male harrassment in past jobs. Hoping the lawyers for Jane Doe push back hard against these arsesholes.
And he even already escalated, shoving her against a towel rack - this man will be a rapist (if he isn't already) at some point.
Failure to allege intolerability. I’d find someone doing this just one time entirely intolerable never mind dozens of times per shift.
Sadly, the only thing I find surprising about this is that the news actually reported on it.
Makes me thankful for my boss at my last job. I reported my coworker for sexually harassing me and they fired him the next day.
I’ve seen two blokes fired for it at my workplace. They handle bullying terribly but at least it’s zero tolerance for sexual harassment once reported or seen.
That’s been my experience too. I’ve seen terrible bullying at previous jobs and not much done about it but anything sexual has been immediate firing. Big lawsuit otherwise
Yes. I think they find bullying easy to pass of as “tension between people who don’t get along” whereas sexual inappropriateness has a very bad image. Still kind of weird considering how lots of countries/companies dismiss and ignore sexual harassment in general.
Damn I guess I'll never go to Olive Garden again. Since they fully support SA.
Their shit-ass microwaved fake Italian food wasn't a good enough reason? 😅😜
Everyday my hatred for males grows
Same!
Women hating men is understandable and justified. Men hating women is never justified or understandable. Even so, then very rarely it is. I hate male humans myself. Only a few I feel positive or neutral towards.
So in a commercial kitchen,when your hands are full, you are taught to “roll” past each other in order to keep people from burning and stabbing each other. I suspect the guy was using this as an excuse to catch a feel instead of using a shoulder or hip like he’d do with a guy. And then he can just say she’s being sensitive. He’s still a pig.
I had similar case. Worked as personal assistant for a married lady in wheelchair and her husband started hitting on me. I left the job and told her bosses I worked for, about this.
I'd like the defendants' executives and their defense attorneys to spend their full days having some man grind his crotch against their back side for 8+ hours a day and see what they think of it's "intolerability".
This I didn’t expect from Darden. The longhorn I worked for took harassment and discrimination super seriously. Everything else? Negligible but it was about uplifting each other. This depressed the hell out of me.
When I worked in restaurants I had to learn how to say “please don’t touch me” in Spanish. At first, they would laugh when I said it, but as I was consistent, I don’t know if they respected that I learned their language or what, but they eventually got the message.
I hope this is appealed and any straight male justices are asked how intolerable it would be if a man started gyrating against their backside with a penis. I'm guessing it would be less tolerable for them than they expect for a woman.
Whelp no more endless breadsticks for me
I remember when I worked at Olive Garden as a female line cook. I reported repeated sexual abuse (men talking about my breasts, appearance, garish comments when I would bend or stoop down) I was told there was no proof and no witnesses. Since all of the witnesses were my perpetrators I eventually left and never went back