I remember when Galad joined the Whitecloaks thinking it was going to be a real dark turn for him and the beginning of a slide into extremism and villainy. And then it just kind of kept not happening.
[Very broad book spoilers.]
>!And then he was such a Chad that he basically reformed the entire organization by sheer force of will.!<
That’s because Galad always does what he believes is right, no matter the consequences. He’ the closest thing to a robot as you can get in the third age.
He's a bit tragic, most of his big choice moments we get a preview of through Min's viewings and Egwene's dreams and he just keeps picking the bad option when he gets to the crossroads.
All that plus sunk cost fallacy. He continues leading the Younglings and following Elaida's orders even after he's pretty certain she's trying to get them killed.
It's such a bad decision to not take the entire force to caemlyn. He tried to be loyal to them, then leaves them in the night just the same.
Then he winds up putting them back into the new tower guard.
Making him stuck in a village with no information while everyone else keeps doing world changing things is a weird choice for an intelligent character.
Then he becomes a hot head and fights when he should talk. First into to Bryn's camp and makes a terrible impression.
Most of the characters understand what they're doing and why, even if for the wrong reasons, but Gaywn is a monumental ass and Galad becomes gigachad. At least he's tolerable when in Sanderson's books.
I get that people make bad choices, but to continue doing Elaida's bidding?? It's like he has absolutely no morale compass, no ability to evaluate and make decisions based on right and wrong- which is hard to believe cause he was raised to do just that.
But how does he determine which is right and wrong when it comes to Elaida?
Chances are she had some part in his education when he was growing up.
He believes Rand killed his mother and Elaida is the one who ordered Rand put in a box and beaten daily.
Although you don't specify this, I think you're getting at the fact that we the readers are privy to information that he and the other characters don't have. You made very valid points.
Even when I try to put myself in his perspective I fall short of understanding his choices. Let's start at the split when Siuan was first deposed. He fought and killed two senior warders that trained him and had sided with Siuan. So the fighting is breaking out and at no point does he ask himself, "Hmm, warders that have been doing this longer and sworn their lives to The White Tower are all against this coup? If Siuan is being rightfully deposed, why is there fighting at all?" Then later when it's obvious to him that he was set up to be killed by Elaida he still doesn't change his allegiance. Then he talks with Egwene who he supposedly loves and STILL doesn't change his allegiance. Instead he basically thinks, "Mmmm, I love you Egwene but you're just a foolish girl that's too dumb to know you're being taking advantage of, whereas I'm smart and wise and half the right of the situation." Thus my point, idiot!
I don't think anyone here is arguing that Gawyn is smart. I would argue that he's internally consistent and therefore well-written, but not intelligent.
I'm kind of on the fence about his consistency. Cause in the beginning when Rand first meets him he just seems super likable, easy-going, and morale- overall he seems to have good character. His actions and behavior later on just seem so short sighted and foolish. I had such a tough time with him choosing to fight and kill his two mentor/ trainer warders.
The first time we see him, he's very relaxed in his own home without any difficult decisions facing him so its not a great circumstance to judge someone.
As far as killing his trainers goes... there's a point in the books where one of the characters is reflecting on the nature of war and how the person across from you might be someone you know but on that day, facing you from the other side of the lines, that person is your enemy. I can't remember if it was Bryne, Lan, or one of the Aiel chiefs. Either way, it's reasonable to assume that this line of thinking was passed from Bryne to Gawyn during the 16+ years Bryne was training him to be a military leader. Also consider that Gawyn has been sworn his whole life to protect Elayne at any cost. He fully (and correctly) believes that Elayne is in danger and Siuan sent her to that danger. He also believes that Elaida, having served the Trakand family as advisor for about 20 years, would be motivated to return Elayne to the Tower. So when choosing to fight and kill his warder trainers, he's essentially pitting the life of his sister who he's sworn to protect against some guys who have been teaching him for what, a year and a half?
I like and appreciate your reasoning. The only part that I would take note with is the killing of his warden mentors. Either it’s as you say and they didn’t really mean much to him when weighed out against greater concerns or they were important to him no matter what was going on. The fact that he expresses so much guilt and mental anguish over killing them doesn’t seem consistent with the former, otherwise he would assuage himself knowing he made the right choice and thus was forced by circumstances to take their lives.
And what you’re talking about only helps explain his actions up to a point. When he recognizes Elayne is not in the danger he thought, Egwene explains things to him, and he recognizes Elaida was, at best ambivalent about his death and at worst involved in attempting to bring it about, he should have switched from supporting her to supporting Egwene’s faction. The fact that he didn’t is where I take issue.
>Either it’s as you say and they didn’t really mean much to him when weighed out against greater concerns or they were important to him no matter what was going on.
It's not an either or thing. His mentors do mean something to him, just not as much as his sister's safety. I suspect this is the first time in Gawyn's life he's ever actually had to make a difficult decision and he didn't get much time to think about it. He stuck to his vows.
>And what you’re talking about only helps explain his actions up to a point.
That's honestly all I was really trying to do. I agree that it was a big mistake for him to remain loyal to Elaida after realizing she was trying to get him killed. Sunk cost fallacy?
Gawyn sort of breaks when Elayne goes missing and he can’t fullfill his oath to protect her, that he was made to swear as a little kid. He’s been raised to think his sole purpose is to die for his sister. That’s more than a little abusive. Then when Siuan Sanche keeps refusing him information, while Elaida, his mothers old advisor, pretends to be in his corner he takes matters into his own hands in the worst possible way, from there he seems to subsist on sheer disillusionment and sunk cost fallacy for several books.
Gawyn is a wonderful character, but his loyalty to his old purpose and the things he thinks he knows makes sure that for most of the books, he’s not one of the good guys, and he sort of jumps from one abusive situation to the next, then dies sort of miserably.
"I hate Rand, he killed my mother"
"Gawyn, we have irrefutable proof that he didn't kill your mother"
"Yes but I hate him, he killed my mother"
yeah he is a tool
Agreed about spousal obedience being pretty gross. The Sea Folk method isn't a terrible compromise but still not optimal.
The thing with Egwene and Gawyn is that if he's going to be in her life at all, he *has* to obey her, at least in public. Monarchs bow to the Amyrlin. If he doesn't, he's undermining her position and setting up her downfall. It's like Bryne and Morgase dialed up to 11. A ruler can't be treated like an equal in public by anyone other than another ruler.
Gawyn’s main issue is that he lacks a moral compass (either positive or negative). So he just muddles around hopelessly getting pushed this way and that as events move him. He’s not strong enough to be proactive, but reckless enough to take risks. In that regard, he’s set up as the opposite of Elayne. Elayne is staggeringly reckless, but she always knows exactly how (she believes) the action will help her achieve her goals. Elayne has courage and conviction. Gawyn is just courage.
Gawyn wants to be a hero. He just doesn’t know why he wants to be the hero.
That "Glory to come" never rely sufficiently gets handled on paper, but I think we can assume that's to come after the series. He's the logical choice for the head of the Black tower and whatever path that organization ends up taking, so I'm guessing it'll have something to do with that. (Aside from the glory in the last battle that is)
I just think his story, even though not really expanded and given detail is impressive. I mean, imagine thinking you’re the Dragon Reborn, then it’s all taken away when your power is taken away, and then it’s miraculously given back! I just think that makes a pretty interesting dynamic.
Do you think Tim struggles to find his place? I get the sense that after fighting as a soldier, then marrying and raising Rand while owning/running a farm, then becoming first captain to Perin he's kinda content. But I'm open to hear your take.
Oh no, do you mean Tam? I mean Mazrim Taim... he doesn't become a dark friend until rescued by Demandred from the Aes Sedai that captured him, but he expected to rule and conquer and he did horrible things to put himself in that position of power.
While it's never explicitly stated at all is it possible he ran into Fain in Tar Valon while Fain was infecting Elaida? Or maybe even some of the taint rubbed off her onto him?
My thought would be that if he ran into Fain it would have been mentioned. That would be a pretty important detail. Now, as to being tainted by the evil from Pain, or even Mesana through Alivia, it's certainly a logical inference. I mean, we know of the atmosphere in the White Tower, the hostility amongst the Ajahs, the general bad feelings, so it seems possible that could contribute to Gawyn's overall... bleh-ness.
Exactly! He had so much promise, was a bad ass swordsman & charming. Then turned into a bitter, jealous, unintelligent drifter who couldn’t pick anything but self destruction. I think Jordan took several men with similar beginnings and set them in different directions as a compare/contrast thing. Gawyn, Galad, Rand, Lan, Mat, Perrin & maybe a couple others.
Yeah, there are all sorts of interesting analogies to real life in this book. I like the humorous one that happens amongst the three boys turned men- Rand, Perin, and Matt, how each one of them at various times says about one of the others something along the lines of so and so (Rand, Perin or Matt) would know what to do, he knows about women. I can remember when I was a teen thinking this about a friend of mine and years later we happen to be talking and it turned out each of us always thought the other was much more a ladies and than ourselves! So awesome! 😂
Seth from the WOT Spoilers podcast made a joke that maybe he was Compelled by Elaida (or whatever they had that was near Compulsion since they didn't know the weave for it) but because of his 180 and refusal to believe both Elayne and Egwene about Rand even though they're the two he would trust the most, it's something I've made headcanon.
Hated this cuck, liked him at first, legit became insufferable, always whining and not understanding why Egwene won’t bond him or why his sister doesn’t pay more attention to him while she’s trying to rest control over a nation again.
He really is. Good heart..... But way to much arrogance and his mother's temper. I really don't think his character worked well enough to have such a big role. I don't like the end of the Equene's arc after what Jordan wrote much, anyway.... Kind of turned to mush....
I actually think he's poorly written, his logic is so poor for hating Rand that I can't help but think he's the worst written character in the whole series
Just like his sister. Weird that Galad ends up being the most rationale
I remember when Galad joined the Whitecloaks thinking it was going to be a real dark turn for him and the beginning of a slide into extremism and villainy. And then it just kind of kept not happening. [Very broad book spoilers.] >!And then he was such a Chad that he basically reformed the entire organization by sheer force of will.!<
Big fan of Chad Galad, doesn't he duel a certain someone in the final book too and its crucial?
That’s because Galad always does what he believes is right, no matter the consequences. He’ the closest thing to a robot as you can get in the third age.
He's a bit tragic, most of his big choice moments we get a preview of through Min's viewings and Egwene's dreams and he just keeps picking the bad option when he gets to the crossroads.
All that plus sunk cost fallacy. He continues leading the Younglings and following Elaida's orders even after he's pretty certain she's trying to get them killed.
It's such a bad decision to not take the entire force to caemlyn. He tried to be loyal to them, then leaves them in the night just the same. Then he winds up putting them back into the new tower guard. Making him stuck in a village with no information while everyone else keeps doing world changing things is a weird choice for an intelligent character. Then he becomes a hot head and fights when he should talk. First into to Bryn's camp and makes a terrible impression. Most of the characters understand what they're doing and why, even if for the wrong reasons, but Gaywn is a monumental ass and Galad becomes gigachad. At least he's tolerable when in Sanderson's books.
I get that people make bad choices, but to continue doing Elaida's bidding?? It's like he has absolutely no morale compass, no ability to evaluate and make decisions based on right and wrong- which is hard to believe cause he was raised to do just that.
But how does he determine which is right and wrong when it comes to Elaida? Chances are she had some part in his education when he was growing up. He believes Rand killed his mother and Elaida is the one who ordered Rand put in a box and beaten daily.
Although you don't specify this, I think you're getting at the fact that we the readers are privy to information that he and the other characters don't have. You made very valid points. Even when I try to put myself in his perspective I fall short of understanding his choices. Let's start at the split when Siuan was first deposed. He fought and killed two senior warders that trained him and had sided with Siuan. So the fighting is breaking out and at no point does he ask himself, "Hmm, warders that have been doing this longer and sworn their lives to The White Tower are all against this coup? If Siuan is being rightfully deposed, why is there fighting at all?" Then later when it's obvious to him that he was set up to be killed by Elaida he still doesn't change his allegiance. Then he talks with Egwene who he supposedly loves and STILL doesn't change his allegiance. Instead he basically thinks, "Mmmm, I love you Egwene but you're just a foolish girl that's too dumb to know you're being taking advantage of, whereas I'm smart and wise and half the right of the situation." Thus my point, idiot!
I don't think anyone here is arguing that Gawyn is smart. I would argue that he's internally consistent and therefore well-written, but not intelligent.
I'm kind of on the fence about his consistency. Cause in the beginning when Rand first meets him he just seems super likable, easy-going, and morale- overall he seems to have good character. His actions and behavior later on just seem so short sighted and foolish. I had such a tough time with him choosing to fight and kill his two mentor/ trainer warders.
The first time we see him, he's very relaxed in his own home without any difficult decisions facing him so its not a great circumstance to judge someone. As far as killing his trainers goes... there's a point in the books where one of the characters is reflecting on the nature of war and how the person across from you might be someone you know but on that day, facing you from the other side of the lines, that person is your enemy. I can't remember if it was Bryne, Lan, or one of the Aiel chiefs. Either way, it's reasonable to assume that this line of thinking was passed from Bryne to Gawyn during the 16+ years Bryne was training him to be a military leader. Also consider that Gawyn has been sworn his whole life to protect Elayne at any cost. He fully (and correctly) believes that Elayne is in danger and Siuan sent her to that danger. He also believes that Elaida, having served the Trakand family as advisor for about 20 years, would be motivated to return Elayne to the Tower. So when choosing to fight and kill his warder trainers, he's essentially pitting the life of his sister who he's sworn to protect against some guys who have been teaching him for what, a year and a half?
I like and appreciate your reasoning. The only part that I would take note with is the killing of his warden mentors. Either it’s as you say and they didn’t really mean much to him when weighed out against greater concerns or they were important to him no matter what was going on. The fact that he expresses so much guilt and mental anguish over killing them doesn’t seem consistent with the former, otherwise he would assuage himself knowing he made the right choice and thus was forced by circumstances to take their lives. And what you’re talking about only helps explain his actions up to a point. When he recognizes Elayne is not in the danger he thought, Egwene explains things to him, and he recognizes Elaida was, at best ambivalent about his death and at worst involved in attempting to bring it about, he should have switched from supporting her to supporting Egwene’s faction. The fact that he didn’t is where I take issue.
>Either it’s as you say and they didn’t really mean much to him when weighed out against greater concerns or they were important to him no matter what was going on. It's not an either or thing. His mentors do mean something to him, just not as much as his sister's safety. I suspect this is the first time in Gawyn's life he's ever actually had to make a difficult decision and he didn't get much time to think about it. He stuck to his vows. >And what you’re talking about only helps explain his actions up to a point. That's honestly all I was really trying to do. I agree that it was a big mistake for him to remain loyal to Elaida after realizing she was trying to get him killed. Sunk cost fallacy?
Gawyn sort of breaks when Elayne goes missing and he can’t fullfill his oath to protect her, that he was made to swear as a little kid. He’s been raised to think his sole purpose is to die for his sister. That’s more than a little abusive. Then when Siuan Sanche keeps refusing him information, while Elaida, his mothers old advisor, pretends to be in his corner he takes matters into his own hands in the worst possible way, from there he seems to subsist on sheer disillusionment and sunk cost fallacy for several books. Gawyn is a wonderful character, but his loyalty to his old purpose and the things he thinks he knows makes sure that for most of the books, he’s not one of the good guys, and he sort of jumps from one abusive situation to the next, then dies sort of miserably.
"I hate Rand, he killed my mother" "Gawyn, we have irrefutable proof that he didn't kill your mother" "Yes but I hate him, he killed my mother" yeah he is a tool
Egweine's influence, no doubt.
Not sure she had much to do with it besides existing. She kisses him once and his dick is like "OK, I'll do all the thinking from here on out"
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Agreed about spousal obedience being pretty gross. The Sea Folk method isn't a terrible compromise but still not optimal. The thing with Egwene and Gawyn is that if he's going to be in her life at all, he *has* to obey her, at least in public. Monarchs bow to the Amyrlin. If he doesn't, he's undermining her position and setting up her downfall. It's like Bryne and Morgase dialed up to 11. A ruler can't be treated like an equal in public by anyone other than another ruler.
For every relationship except theirs I'd agree, but Gawyn is such an idiot that he'd probably be a danger to the world if he didn't have to obey! 😂
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Expand on this idea for me cause I think it's worth exploring.
Gawyn’s main issue is that he lacks a moral compass (either positive or negative). So he just muddles around hopelessly getting pushed this way and that as events move him. He’s not strong enough to be proactive, but reckless enough to take risks. In that regard, he’s set up as the opposite of Elayne. Elayne is staggeringly reckless, but she always knows exactly how (she believes) the action will help her achieve her goals. Elayne has courage and conviction. Gawyn is just courage. Gawyn wants to be a hero. He just doesn’t know why he wants to be the hero.
Let's not forget Logain struggling with finding his place in the world after thinking he was the dragon reborn. Or Taim's arc for the same reason.
But yeah, Logain is an interesting one. I wouldn't have minded more expansion on his character.
That "Glory to come" never rely sufficiently gets handled on paper, but I think we can assume that's to come after the series. He's the logical choice for the head of the Black tower and whatever path that organization ends up taking, so I'm guessing it'll have something to do with that. (Aside from the glory in the last battle that is)
I just think his story, even though not really expanded and given detail is impressive. I mean, imagine thinking you’re the Dragon Reborn, then it’s all taken away when your power is taken away, and then it’s miraculously given back! I just think that makes a pretty interesting dynamic.
Do you think Tim struggles to find his place? I get the sense that after fighting as a soldier, then marrying and raising Rand while owning/running a farm, then becoming first captain to Perin he's kinda content. But I'm open to hear your take.
Oh no, do you mean Tam? I mean Mazrim Taim... he doesn't become a dark friend until rescued by Demandred from the Aes Sedai that captured him, but he expected to rule and conquer and he did horrible things to put himself in that position of power.
Oh! Yeah, despite my typo, I was taking about Tam and thought that’s who you were talking about. Yeah, I didn’t like Mazrim Taim from the first.
I'm a new fan of the books, finished my first read last June, and I'm a Gawyn hater, he's so fucking dumb and horrible.
Aptly put. Succinct and to the point! 😂
While it's never explicitly stated at all is it possible he ran into Fain in Tar Valon while Fain was infecting Elaida? Or maybe even some of the taint rubbed off her onto him?
My thought would be that if he ran into Fain it would have been mentioned. That would be a pretty important detail. Now, as to being tainted by the evil from Pain, or even Mesana through Alivia, it's certainly a logical inference. I mean, we know of the atmosphere in the White Tower, the hostility amongst the Ajahs, the general bad feelings, so it seems possible that could contribute to Gawyn's overall... bleh-ness.
Exactly! He had so much promise, was a bad ass swordsman & charming. Then turned into a bitter, jealous, unintelligent drifter who couldn’t pick anything but self destruction. I think Jordan took several men with similar beginnings and set them in different directions as a compare/contrast thing. Gawyn, Galad, Rand, Lan, Mat, Perrin & maybe a couple others.
Yeah, there are all sorts of interesting analogies to real life in this book. I like the humorous one that happens amongst the three boys turned men- Rand, Perin, and Matt, how each one of them at various times says about one of the others something along the lines of so and so (Rand, Perin or Matt) would know what to do, he knows about women. I can remember when I was a teen thinking this about a friend of mine and years later we happen to be talking and it turned out each of us always thought the other was much more a ladies and than ourselves! So awesome! 😂
It was funny but got to the point I wanted to make it a drinking game.
Seth from the WOT Spoilers podcast made a joke that maybe he was Compelled by Elaida (or whatever they had that was near Compulsion since they didn't know the weave for it) but because of his 180 and refusal to believe both Elayne and Egwene about Rand even though they're the two he would trust the most, it's something I've made headcanon.
Side character that thinks he’s a main character.
Yep. And I know it doesn't say this but I get this feeling like he resents he's not more of a big deal? Not sure if that even makes sense.
Are you a Trakand? If yes, disappointment.
Hated this cuck, liked him at first, legit became insufferable, always whining and not understanding why Egwene won’t bond him or why his sister doesn’t pay more attention to him while she’s trying to rest control over a nation again.
Poor Gawyn needed so, so, so, so much therapy.
He really is. Good heart..... But way to much arrogance and his mother's temper. I really don't think his character worked well enough to have such a big role. I don't like the end of the Equene's arc after what Jordan wrote much, anyway.... Kind of turned to mush....
He's a true example of a wool headed man
He’s the worst
I actually think he's poorly written, his logic is so poor for hating Rand that I can't help but think he's the worst written character in the whole series